📄 Extracted Text (26,658 words)
1
DIGITALLY RECORDED
SWORN STATEMENT
OF
OIG CASE #:
2019-010614
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL
JUNE 15, 2021
RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES
28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285
Agoura Hills, CA 91301
Phone: (818) 431-5800
EFTA00059671
2
APPEARANCES:
OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL
BY:
BY:
WITNESS:
OTHER APPEARANCES:
NONE
EFTA00059672
3
1 : The recorder is on. It
2 is Tuesday, June 15, 2021 and the time is 5:57
3 p.m.
4 : My name is
5 I'm a Special Agent with the U.S. Department of
6 Justice Office of the Inspector General, New
7 York Field Office and these are my credentials.
8 This interview is with Federal Bureau of
9 Prisons Correctional Officer, Lieutenant - can
10 you state your name?
11
12 : First name?
13
14 -: . And is being
15 conducted as part of an official U.S.
16 Department of Justice Office of the Inspector
17 General investigation. Today is June 15th and
18 the time is 5:58 p.m. The interview is being
19 conducted at 6 West 23rd Street, Deer Park, New
20 York. Also present are DOJ OIG Senior Special
21 Agent Dennis
22 • , and again,
23 these are my credentials.
24 : Uh-huh.
25 : This interview will be
EFTA00059673
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1 recorded by me, Special Agent
2 Could everyone please identify themselves for
3 the record and spell your last name, to start?
4 Again, I am DOJ Special Agent •
•
5
6 : My name is Senior Special
7 Agent
8 : Lieutenant
9 •
10 : As I stated before, this is
11 an official DOJ investigation into the death of
12 inmate Jeffery Epstein and the timing
13 surrounding that and you're being asked to
14 voluntarily provide answers to our questions.
15 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with
16 the DOJ OIG?
17 : Yes.
18 : As part of our procedure, I'm
19 going to provide you with DOJ OIG form 3226
20 226-2. I'm going to read the form out loud to
21 you and give you a chance to review it also.
22 "United States Department of Justice, Office of
23 the Inspector General Warnings and Assurances
24 to Employee Requested to Provide Information on
25 a Voluntary Basis. You are being asked to
EFTA00059674
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1 provide information as part of an investigation
2 being conducted by the Office of Inspector
3 General. This investigation is being conducted
4 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978,
5 as amended. This investigation pertains to job
6 performance failure and security failure. This
7 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do
8 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary
9 action will be taken against you if you choose
10 not to answer any questions. Any statement you
11 furnish may be used as evidence in any future
12 criminal proceedings or agency disciplinary
13 proceeding or both." Now the waiver for you.
14 "I understand the warnings and assurances
15 stated above and I am willing to make a
16 statement and answer questions. No promises or
17 threats have been made to me and no pressure or
18 coercion of any kind has been used against me."
19 Do you understand that?
20 : Uh-huh.
21 : Do you wish to proceed with
22 the interview?
23 : Yeah.
24 : Please review the document
25 and once you review the document, please sign
EFTA00059675
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1 where it says, "Employee signature."
2 : Do you need a pen?
3 : I have. Thank you.
4 : There's a line that says,
5 "Employee signature," --
6 : Uh-huh.
7 -- and sign your name there
8 and below there can you please print your name?
9 : Thank you sir.
10 : Uh-huh.
11 : I'm signing the signature of
12 the Office of Inspector General's Special
13 Agent.
14 : Thank you for signing the
15 document, both of you, and for dating it
16 6/15/21 at 6:02 p.m. I am signing my name and
17 signature of witness and printing my name, name
18 of witness.
19 : Before we start the
20 interview, I'd like to place you under oath,
21 Can you please raise your right
22 hand? Do you swear to tell the truth and
23 nothing but the truth during this interview?
24 : Yes.
25 : Thank you.
EFTA00059676
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1 : I do.
2 : Please let me know if you do
3 not understand any questions I ask, I'll repeat
4 it and I'll try to rephrase it for you. Okay?
5 What is your current home address?
6
7
8 : Your date of birth?
9
10 : And what is your social
11 security number?
12 : He doesn't need to
13 provide that if he doesn't want to. Would you
14 mind for the record, can you show us your
15 credentials again and then we can use that as
16 verification for your - all right. Thank you,
17 sir, for showing your credentials. I'm looking
18 at the U.S. Department of Justice Federal
19 Bureau of Prisons law enforcement officer
20 credentials, certify that is a
21 Lieutenant at the MCC New York, New York. I
22 see a picture that matches the gentleman that
23 is sitting in front of us.
24 : Thank you.
25 : You're welcome.
EFTA00059677
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1 • , what's your highest
2 level of education?
3 : I have a bachelors of science
4 degree.
5 : In what subject?
6 : Community Services.
7 : What college did you receive
8 that from?
9
10 : What year did you receive it?
11
12 • . Okay. What did
13 you do prior to working for the BOP?
14 : I was in the military and I
15 worked in a law firm.
16 : Thank you for your service.
17 What branch of the military?
18 : United States Navy Reserves.
19 : How long were you in the
20 military for?
21 : 20 years, 23 days, and 21 hours
22 or something like that.
23 : What was your position and
24 title when you
25 : I was an E-6 ship service man,
EFTA00059678
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1 first class petty officer.
2 And are you still active in
3 the military?
4 : No, I'm retired.
5 : Thank you.
6 : And did you retire in
7 2019?
8 : Yes.
9 : October?
10 : October 2019.
11 : How long have you served with
12 the Federal Bureau of Prisons?
13 : Thirteen years.
14 : Thirteen years? And what was
15 the entry on duty date?
16 - I mean,
17
18 : Did you graduate from BOP
19 training?
20 : Yes.
21 : What year?
22
23 : Okay. When and where was
24 your first office assignment with the BOP?
25 : Brooklyn, MDC Brooklyn.
EFTA00059679
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1 : That was in 2008?
2 : Yes.
3 : And what positions - how long
4 did you stay at the MDC for?
5 : Five and a half years.
6 : Five and a half?
7 : I stayed there from to
8
9 : Where did you go in October?
10 : MCC New York.
11 : Was it a promotion or
12 lateral?
13 : Lateral.
14 : Okay. When did you get -
15 what was the next step, promotion that you got?
16 : GS-8.
17 : To what position?
18 : MCC New York, Senior Officer
19 Specialist.
20 : And what year was that?
21 : Think, I'm going to say
22 : Okay. And what was the next
23 promotion after that?
24 : GS-9.
25 : GS-9 what? What was the
EFTA00059680
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1 title?
2 : I was a Counselor.
3 : Okay. And after that?
4 : GS-11 Lieutenant.
5 : When did you become a
6 Lieutenant?
7 : I was temp Lieutenant in 2016.
8 Then, I got 2000, I think `17, I got promoted
9 to - '17 or `18 I got promoted to GS-11.
10 : What was your position at the
11 MCC on August 9th and 10th --
12 : I was a -.
13 : -- of 2019?
14 : I was a Lieutenant.
15 : I'll read it.
16 : Okay.
17 : So we have a - is it
18 correct that you were interviewed already by
19 the FBI and the OIG?
20 : Yes.
21 : Regarding the matter
22 leading up to Epstein's death on August 9th -.
23 : Correct.
24 : Great. Thank you. I'm
25 just going to read the report that was created
EFTA00059681
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1 from that interview. It is an FBI report so I
2 can't physically hand it to you but because the
3 OIG was there, it's our information to ask,
4 that's why I'll be able to read it to you.
5 Just, as I'm reading it, just let me know if
6 there's anything that's inaccurate and then
7 I'll probably stop along the way to just kind
8 of ask for a little bit more collaborations.
9 It says, "Prior to employment with the Bureau
10 of Prisons, was a Paralegal at Skadden Law
11 Firm."
12 Skadden.
13 : Skadden, S-K-A-D-D-E-N.
14 : Uh-huh.
15 : "He worked litigation,
16 pro bono, mergers and acquisitions for
17 approximately 10 years." And was that
18 approximately from 1998 to 2008?
19 : Approximately.
20 : Okay. has also
21 been an enlisted Navy Reservist for the last 20
22 years. was employed as a Corrections
23 Officer with the BOP in at the
24 Metropolitan Detention Center herein after
25 MDC," is that correct?
EFTA00059682
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1 : It was January.
2 : January of 1999?
3 : Where?
4 This is saying that I
5 don't think this was correct. So, it says that
6 you were with the MDC since June of 1999.
7 : I was there - no, not `99, no.
8 : I thought you said in
9 2008 you started.
10 : 2008 I said I started. Yeah,
11 not `99.
12 : All right. So you
13 started with the MDC - with the BOP and at the
14 MDC in --
15 : 2000 -.
16 •
17 Yes.
18 : Okay. transitioned
19 to the BOP Metropolitan Correction Center, or
20 the MCC, on," it says, "
21 : Yes.
22 : "He was later promoted to
23 the rank of Lieutenant on
24 : Yeah, July sometime.
25 : Okay. was the
EFTA00059683
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1 Special Housing Unit, or SHU, Lieutenant for
2 approximately 90 days since Lieutenants rotate
3 throughout the MCC every 90 days." Is that
4 correct?
5 : Uh-huh.
6 : According to , his
7 duties and responsibilities were as follows."
8 So prior to us going on. So you were 90 days
9 up until this incident? Were you just about to
10 rotate out of the SHU then?
11 : No.
12 : Okay.
13 : I was just still the SHU
14 Lieutenant.
15 : So were you -.
16 : So -.
17 : So the way that this
18 reads is almost like you were only there for 90
19 days. Were you there for --
20 : Yeah.
21 : -- longer than 90 days?
22 : Well, I was taken out because I
23 was out on an injury.
24 : Prior to that though, how
25 long were you the SHU Lieutenant?
EFTA00059684
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1 : Yeah, for about - because we
2 switch. I was on the desk and just before, I
3 think, like program review or something like
4 that, after program review, they put me up
5 there.
6 : All right. But all of
7 July and August of 2000 --
8 : Yeah, I was - yeah.
9 : -- and `19, so, okay. So
10 you were the SHU Lieutenant for all - at least
11 July and
12 : Uh-huh.
13 : -- August and a little
14 bit prior.
15 : Yeah. Uh-huh.
16 : So it says, "According to
17 duties and responsibilities are as
18 follows. Control max wing, 10 south and
19 oversee the regular SHU."
20 : Uh-huh.
21 : And 10 south, my
22 understanding is that's the very high profile
23 inmates that have one inmate per cell, there's
24 constant supervision by cameras on them --
25 : Cameras.
EFTA00059685
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1 : -- at all times?
2 : Uh-huh.
3 : Okay. Maybe like
4 terrorists?
5 : Uh-huh.
6 : People that go into those
7 - okay. You supervise employees, you control
8 moves, you oversee segregation reviews
9 hereinafter referred to as SROs. "Ensure
10 inmates are given what they have coming." What
11 does that mean? "Ensure inmate -.
12 : That means, whatever the
13 institution - if they have - they need soap,
14 they get soap. If they need toilet paper, they
15 get toilet paper. If they need a pen, pad to
16 write on, they get it.
17 : So the supplies that
18 they're
19 : Supplies that they --
20 • -- required, you ensure -
21 -
22 : -- that - I ensure that they -.
23 : -- that they receive what
24 they --
25 : Yes.
EFTA00059686
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1 : -- what they require.
2 : Uh-huh.
3 : Okay. And then the next
4 thing that they wrote was, "A lot." So I'm
5 assuming what they meant is you have a lot of
6 responsibilities.
7 : Yes.
8 is generally the
9 Monday through Friday, 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m.
10 shift supervisor."
11 : Yes.
12 : Were you working a lot of
13 overtime there?
14 : Yes.
15 And when you were doing
16 your OT, were you also in the SHU?
17 : Yes.
18 : Okay. Would that be
19 : Because as the Operations
20 Lieutenant, you've got to go to Special
21 Housing.
22 : Okay. So if you were
23 doing OT, you weren't necessarily the SHU
24 Lieutenant, you were the Operations Lieutenant
25
EFTA00059687
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1 : No.
2 : -- you were the
3 Operations Lieutenant, but you covered the SHU.
4 : Or activities, yes.
5 : So you were - you would -
6 .
7 : So.
8 : So during your OT shifts,
9 you typically would do either Activities or
10 Operations Lieutenant?
11 : Yes.
12 : And were you doing that
13 almost on like a daily basis up until then?
14 : Something like that. Uh-huh.
15 : And would it typically be
16 like the morning watch or the evening watch or
17 -.
18 : Any shift.
19 : Any?
20 : Yes.
21 : Was a lot of it mandated
22 or voluntary or both?
23 : It was - I mean, it was short,
24 so, you know.
25 : Like, like, like
EFTA00059688
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1 forbidding, you've served as both Activities
2 and the Ops --
3 : Uh-huh.
4 : -- Lieutenant, so you're
5 familiar with those duties and
6 responsibilities, correct?
7 : Yes.
8 : Great.
9 : Uh-huh.
10 : All right. So, "
11 advised that there is a mandatory quarterly
12 training in the SHU program for BOP employees."
13 Now, have you ever conducted that training?
14 : Yes.
15 : You've participated?
16 : Uh-huh.
17 : Okay, great. And do you
18 know of the individuals that were working in
19 the SHU for their quarterly assignments had
20 also received that training at the time?
21 : Some have received that
22 training.
23 : Possibly not all?
24 : But possibly not all.
25 : Okay.
EFTA00059689
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1 : But if they didn't, you know,
2 we went around and we showed them, you know,
3 showed them training.
4 : Okay. So anybody that
5 hadn't gone
6 : So --
7 : -- to that training -.
8 people that was assigned
9 that were supposed to be there, went to the
10 training.
11 : Okay.
12 : And if they didn't go for
13 whatever reason, if they was out sick or
14 whatever, I tried to get them trained, you
15 know, give them the PowerPoint and go over the
16 training with them, you know, hands on.
17 : Now, are you the person
18 that would present the training at the
19 quarterly training?
20 : Yes.
21 : Okay. So as the -.
22 : Normally the SHU Lieutenant
23 does.
24 : Okay. So you provided
25 probably the last quarterly training and then
EFTA00059690
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1 anyone who didn't attend that training, you
2 provided them personal training yourself?
3 : Yes.
4 : Okay.
5 : But I don't know if I did it.
6 The prior SHU Lieutenant probably gave the
7 training.
8 : Okay. Had you done it in
9 the past?
10 : Yes.
11 : Okay.
12 : Uh-huh.
13 : "He also reviews 292
14 forms which track an inmate's meals,
15 recreation, medical attention and showers." Is
16 that like the forms that go into their
17 personnel file?
18 : Yes. Uh-huh.
19 : And those files in the
20 SHU, they're kept in the SHU?
21 : Yes.
22 : Okay.
23 : The on the computer - they're
24 supposed to be printed out every week --
25 : Okay.
EFTA00059691
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1 : -- because you've got to go
2 backwards.
3 : And as I'm told, they're
4 printed out on Sundays?
5 : Yes. They're supposed to be
6 printed out like on Sunday morning watch.
7 : Okay.
8 : Put into the file and, you
9 know, because it's a new week. The new week --
10 : Uh-huh.
11 is going to start because
12 that morning is breakfast. So it's breakfast,
13 and it goes B-D - wait, how does it go,
14 breakfast, lunch, dinner, so it goes B-L-D.
15 So, breakfast is first at 6 o'clock, or, you
16 know, 5:44, whatever time the count cleared is
17 breakfast. And then, lunch and then dinner.
18 : Okay. So you said on
19 Sundays, is there typically one person that
20 works on Sundays or is it --
21 : No, it's
22 : -- whoever is working --
23 : -- always -.
24 : -- on that side?
25 : It's always - yeah. It's
EFTA00059692
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1 always supposed to be two up there --
2 : Okay.
3 : -- on - on -.
4 : But it's not like
5 typically the same two is what I'm asking?
6 : Yeah, no.
7 : Okay.
8 : Huh-uh.
9 : So it's whoever is
10 working that shift --
11 : Whoever is working.
12 : -- on a Sunday.
13 : Yeah. Hopefully, you know,
14 well, we had a steady OIC, but he got out, he
15 got injured and was out sick, so, you know,
16 it's by the luck of the draw, whoever is
17 available.
18 : Okay. So who was the
19 officer in charge or OIC who got injured?
20 : For morning watch, I don't
21 know.
22 : No, no, no, who got
23 injured, who got out?
24 : Oh, it was Collado (Phonetic
25 Sp. *00:17:46), I think it was, but he was -
EFTA00059693
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1 yeah, he was out.
2 : And about when did he go
3 out?
4 : I don't remember.
5 : All right. But in
6 August, do you remember if there was an OIC?
7 : I don't remember.
8 : You don't remember?
9 Sure.
10 : I have to look at the roster -
11 I don't -.
12 : Absolutely. Do you have
13 the rosters? Just when we ask some of these
14 questions, you might want to just be able to
15 kind of look at this to be able to kind of
16 refresh your memory.
17 : Uh-huh.
18 : And so, Special Agent
19 is giving you, or I will be giving you
20 the - one is going to be the duty assignment
21 roster from August 9th and the other one is
22 going to be from August 10th.
23 : Uh-huh.
24 : I'm sure you're familiar
25 with these.
EFTA00059694
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1 : Uh-huh.
2 : Sure. So you'll be able
3 to like if --
4 : Uh-huh.
5 : -- the SHU is towards the
6 bottom and then who was on duty. It'll show
7 you the Ops, you know, the Ops Lieutenant and
8 the Activities Lieutenant, so on and so forth.
9 All right. So, it says, "Every SHU inmate has
10 an associated 292 form as long as they are in
11 the SHU population."
12 : Uh-huh.
13 : "Once they rotate to
14 another population, the form is invalid and no
15 longer exists." Now, what does that mean? Do
16 they destroy the forms?
17 : No. So what happens is, okay,
18 the way the program operates is, once you come
19 out of the SHU program, like say for instance,
20 if you key to suicide watch area, your original
21 form, or whatever form, is, if it didn't get
22 printed, if there's a form there, but that
23 stops, the time stops.
24 : You mean they create a
25 new form for every housing unit you go into is
EFTA00059695
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1 what you're saying.
2 : No. Only 292s are in the
3 Special Housing Unit, it's not
4 • Okay.
5 : -- in general population.
6 : Okay. So is there --
7 : So
8 : -- one in suicide watch
9 and -.
10 : No.
11 : No.
12 : On suicide watch, there's
13 booklets and there's - it says, there's a form
14 where it shows, did the inmate eat? Did the
15 inmate, you know, get a shower? Like that.
16 : Okay. But what does it
17 mean when it says that they wrote, "Once they
18 rotate to another population the form is
19 invalid and no longer exists?" Are they
20 referring -.
21 : Is not in the program. They're
22 not in the program so I cannot -.
23 : It doesn't continue.
24 : It doesn't continue, yeah.
25 : But it doesn't, like, get
EFTA00059696
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1 destroyed, it remains --
2 : No.
3 : -- in their file.
4 : If it gets printed.
5 : But it -.
6 : But, like, say - once they come
7 off the SHU program, right? I mean, you could
8 go back and see if the individual was there.
9 But once they come off the program, I cannot
10 create a document for you.
11 : Sure. So are the
12 documents maintained electronically?
13 : It's a program, so I don't - as
14 long as you in the SHU program, in the roster,
15 because SENTRY and BOPWare talk to each other.
16 Right? And so what happens is if a person is
17 keyed into SHU, there's a little box you have
18 to press.
19 : Uh-huh.
20 : In BOPWare, and it's
21 timestamped. So, once that person is there, it
22 creates an AD order, administrative detention
23 order. Once that administrative detention
24 order is set, the Lieutenant writes in there
25 why the individual was placed in Special
EFTA00059697
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1 Housing --
2 : Uh-huh.
3 has to be a reason. If that
4 form is not filled out, the Captain gets an
5 email from the region saying there's a blank AD
6 order in here, right? So I used to go in there
7 and look every morning to see if somebody,
8 whoever got placed in Special Housing to see
9 what the charges was or if that form was filled
10 out.
11 : Okay.
12 : If that form wasn't filled out,
13 I look at the Lieutenant's log or I call the
14 Lieutenant, whoever, you know, "Why did this
15 inmate get locked up?" Normally when I do my
16 rounds, I ask the inmates, "Why are you up
17 here?" Some of them lie and they, "I don't
18 know why I'm up here," whatever. But then I
19 find out why they up there, then I know why.
20 It could be SIS investigation, it could be
21 because of a fight.
22 : Sure.
23 : It could be multiple reasons
24 why the AD order wasn't created. However, we
25 try to create and do the AD order to place the
EFTA00059698
29
1 inmate so that he can have a 292 and he'd be on
2 the SHU report.
3 : So what I'm asking though
4 is --
5 : Uh-huh.
6 -- once it's created,
7 once they're there and once this 292 is
8 created, even if it's not printed out, is it
9 maintained in the system?
10 : Yes.
11 : And is it ever deleted?
12 : No.
13 : So that's what I'm
14 asking. So when this says, "Ceases to exist,"
15 I just want to make sure, is once they leave
16 the SHU, it's not deleted. It's still always
17 going to exist in a file.
18 : I mean, long - you've got a
19 register number, you could go back, but I don't
20 know how long the program, you could go back
21 and forth to pull a 292.
22 : Okay.
23 : You know, once the person is
24 out of SHU. You know, some forms you can go
25 back and you can pull it.
EFTA00059699
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1 : Okay.
2 : But it'll stop at the day that
3 that person was released or, you know, placed
4 in another housing unit.
5 : Okay. Now, people that
6 are in the SHU and get placed in another
7 housing unit, the papers that were printed out,
8 what is done with those?
9 : Those goes to the unit team.
10 : Okay. So that goes, if
11 they went to a different housing unit, it goes
12 --
13 : It goes to the --
14 : -- to the unit.
15 : -- unit team and the mailbox,
16 their file, you know, it tells you on the
17 thing, "Copy to unit team for central file."
18 : Okay.
19 : And it goes into their -
20 supposed to go into their folder.
21 : But it's not destroyed
22 either?
23 : No.
24 : Okay.
25 : Huh-uh.
EFTA00059700
31
1 : It says, "Medical
2 personnel visit the SHU twice a day for rounds
3 in the mornings and the evenings." And it that
4 every day?
5 : Yes.
6 : So - on weekends too?
7 : Yes.
8 : So medical personnel
9 visit the SHU two times a day, okay.
10 : Two - twice per shift, yes.
11 : Around when do they
12 usually show up? Is there -.
13 : Depends. Sometimes they there
14 at, you know, 7 o'clock, 6 o'clock in the
15 morning and then, again, they come up after the
16 4 o'clock count or they might come up before
17 that.
18 : Okay.
19 : You know, when shift changes.
20 : But they actually
21 participate in the rounds?
22 : Yes.
23 : Okay. regularly
24 audits 292 forms from the previous day." So
25 you'd be constantly seeing, making sure your
EFTA00059701
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1 staff are doing what they're supposed to be
2 doing --
3 : Uh-huh.
4 : -- with those forms?
5 Okay. " advised that accountability of
6 inmates is important. He never caught anyone
7 intentionally not doing their job. also
8 reviews round forms and searches for red flags.
9 These could be missing spaces, missing
10 signatures, etcetera. If caught,
11 approaches the individual and requests an
12 explanation." So have you ever caught someone
13 then not doing rounds or --
14 : Uh-huh.
15 : -- anyone that was
16 working on that day - on August 9th or 10th
17 that was working in the SHU? Did you ever have
18 to discuss this matter with any of those
19 individuals?
20 : Naw.
21 : There's no one in there
22 that you can - that were working on either day?
23 : Not that I know of, no.
24 : Okay. Can you think of
25 anyone that you did ever have to deal with for
EFTA00059702
33
1 not conducting rounds or counts?
2 : On day watch, you know, we
3 would ask, "You're doing showers, we down
4 range, we doing this." It gots to get filled
5 out after, you know, that -.
6 : But can you think of
7 anyone that you actually had to - that you
8 caught not doing it? Or I should say, your
9 last day at work was on August 8th. Who was
10 the last person you caught not conducting
11 rounds in the --
12 : Oh, I don't remember.
13 : SHU? You don't?
14 : I don't remember.
15 : Okay. That's fine.
16 : No, sir.
17 : But you don't believe it
18 was any of the people that were working?
19 : No.
20 : Okay. was the SHU
21 Lieutenant when Epstein was assigned. Epstein
22 wasn't originally in the SHU. advised
23 Epstein was in 10 South Lower."
24 : Uh-huh.
25 : "The population is for
EFTA00059703
34
1 inmates not on 10 South but high-profile."
2 Okay, so this is the first. There's two
3 different 10 Souths?
4 : No. There's 10 South, then
5 there's 10 South Lower.
6 : What's 10 South Lower?
7 I don't know -.
8 : G Tier.
9 : Okay.
10 : All right? G Tier has four
11 cells where you can put high-profile or
12 terrorist inmates if 10 South is full.
13 : Okay.
14 : 10 South only holds a maximum
15 of six inmates.
16 : So was he originally
17 going to go to 10 South then and was changed
18 : Oh, I don't know.
19 : So -.
20 : When I got there, he was on G
21 Tier.
22 : Okay. So I thought you
23 just said that 10 South Lower is for people
24 that were going if 10 South was full.
25 : They can put you on the Tier,
EFTA00059704
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1 but they put a lot of - they put disruptive
2 inmates on that tier.
3 : Okay.
4 : So it's not up to me, it's up
5 to that shift Lieutenant.
6 : Sure.
7 : But, if the Captain or somebody
8 or, you know, the Warden or somebody, "Hey, put
9 that guy on G Tier then that's where he's
10 going," that's where that individual will go.
11 That's where he will be housed if that
12 individual was disruptive or anything like
13 that.
14 : And do you how long he
15 was on 10 South Lower approximately?
16 : I don't know.
17 : Was it a long time?
18 : I don't know.
19 : You don't know?
20 : Like, when he - I guess, you
21 know, when he got there to the institution, he
22 was put on - he was on G Tier.
23 : G Tier is 10 South Lower?
24 : Yes.
25 : Okay. Is 10 South Lower
EFTA00059705
36
1 similar to 10 South in the sense that it's one
2 inmate per cell?
3 : Yes.
4 : And are there cameras in
5 those -.
6 : Yes.
7 : All right, so it's set up
8 pretty much the same way as 10 South?
9 : Yes.
10 : So he was never placed in
11 the general population.
12 : I don't think so.
13 : Okay. So when he came
14 in, you believe he was first put on 10 South
15 Lower and then transferred to the SHU.
16 : Yes.
i7 : Okay. And you had
18 oversight --
19 : When -.
20 : -- though -.
21 : When - when -.
22 : You have oversight over -
23 -
24 : When he was -.
25 : -- 10 South.
EFTA00059706
37
1 : When he was moved off of G
2 Tier, if that's the question you're asking me,
3 and placed with a bunkie, that didn't come from
4 me.
5 : Sure. Who does - so, did
6 you supervise both 10 South, 10 South Lower and
7 the regular SHU?
8 : Yeah, and the regular SHU, yes.
9 : Okay. And is that all
10 the same
11 : That's all the same.
12 : -- kind of unit?
13 : Uh-huh.
14 : Okay.
15 : It's one big unit.
16 : Okay.
17 : Upstairs is a separate unit
18 because it's not on - only unit that's 10 South
19 Lower is in the Special Housing Unit.
20 : Okay. So that's
21 : It's on the Special Housing
22 Unit count.
23 : So your understanding
24 though is Epstein was always somewhere in that
25 unit, in 10 - the SHU unit.
EFTA00059707
38
1 : Yes.
2 : Whether lower or just
3 regular SHU.
4 : Yes.
5 : Okay.
6 : I got a - just one --
7 : Uh-huh.
8 : You just mentioned - you said
9 that the G Tier, the 10 South Lower, is always
10 part of the SHU count.
11 : Yes.
12 : So is that ZA or ZB?
13 : ZA.
14 ZA. Okay.
15 : Uh-huh.
16 : ZA or -.
17 : ZB is 10 South.
18 : So ZA was the whole
19 thing.
20 : No.
21 : Oh, can we have you look
22 at these counts then, just for clarification?
23 : It should be - look - if you
24 look at - if you pull up the document for the
25 El that you just flipped by.
EFTA00059708
39
1 : Yeah.
2 : Okay? You look at the El, it
3 got ZA and ZB. ZB has the shorter count.
4 : So ZA says - so I'm
5 looking at the count from 8/9/2015, the time on
6 it shows 1541, so I guess it's the 3:00 p.m.
7 There is no 3:00 p.m.
8 : 4:00 p.m.
9 : 4:00 p.m. count?
10 : Yeah. That was actually when
11 it was created.
12 : It shows for ZA, there
13 were 75, for ZE it says 5.
14 : Yes. ZB is always shorter.
15 : So what I was saying,
16 isn't the 75 count the entire SHU?
17 : It's ZA.
18 : Not -.
19 : It's not - 10 South is not
20 included because 10 South is a separate unit.
21 : Right.
22 : The G Tier is part of ZA --
23 : Correct.
24 : -- not ZE.
25 : So that's what we were
EFTA00059709
40
1 asking --
2 : Yes, yes.
3 : -- is that ZA - the 10
4 South Lower is incorporated with the whole of
5 the regular SHU.
6 : ZA, yes.
7 : And ZB is just 10 South.
8 : Yes.
9 : Right. "Epstein was
10 assigned to cell 201 in the SHU. During their
11 first - okay, is that correct?
12 : I guess. I don't know.
13 : "During their first
14 encounter, Epstein asked `Am I going to
15 get out of here?' remembers Epstein
16 frequenting the attorney conference area for
17 long periods of time." Is it true that at
18 almost - while he was assigned to the SHU was
19 just about every day he was in the - he would
20 go to the attorney area?
21 : Yes.
22 : Okay. advised that
23 at one point during the beginning at a meeting
24 with MCC Executive Management, they wanted to
25 house Epstein with a bunkie. doesn't
EFTA00059710
41
1 recall exactly who requested this action,
2 however, he remembers they were trying to
3 identify an inmate. Ultimately, they decided
4 to house Epstein with Tartaglione. wasn't
5 asked for his input and followed Executive
6 Management orders. There was an instant on
7 7/23/2019 between the two but it didn't occur
8 on shift. He heard about it the next
9 day. completed the 583
10 packet which includes memos and photos
11 resulting from the incident." So although you
12 weren't there, were you familiar with what
13 happened or had -.
14 : I'm a Lieutenant, so I have to
15 know.
16 : So were - did you hear
17 anything about him either trying to commit
18 suicide or his cell mate attempting to kill
19 him?
20 : I don't recall.
21 : So what is it that you
22 recall from it?
23 : I just know I - you know, you
24 read in this day chart that he tried to hang
25 himself and I looked at the 583, I looked at
EFTA00059711
42
1 the pictures, saw the pictures.
2 : So your understanding --
3
4 : -- was that he tried to
5 hang himself.
6 : Yes.
7 : Had you -.
8 : And his bunkie, you know, I
9 guess called out or whatever. They went -
10 they, you know, or
11 whatever, she did what she had to do. He was
12 on suicide watch the next day and, you know,
13 that was pretty much it.
14 : And what -.
15 : You know, I don't recall
16 everything, you know, it's - I - you read it
17 briefly, but I was -.
18 : So, do you know what
19 happened with his cell mate? Did he remain in
20 the SHU?
21 : Yeah.
22 : Did he get placed with
23 another cell mate?
24 : Oh, I don't remember.
25 : Are inmates in the SHU
EFTA00059712
43
1 required to have cellmates when they're in the
2 SHU?
3 : Yes. However, there's
4 exceptions because some of them you can't house
5 them with nobody.
6 : And is that because they
7 would get harmed if they were housed with
8 someone?
9 : Yes.
10 : And is that what - is
11 that part of what 10 South Lower is for or is
12 that - it's just regular SHU, the inmates know?
13 : Just like some have on their
14 door, "Housing rec alone," because they could
15 have multiple steps. Some of them, you know,
16 they could be fear for their life. You always,
17 you know, you have that, but we try to bunk up
18 everybody.
19 : All right, so aside from
20 these special exceptions, inmates are supposed
21 to have -.
22 : Yeah, we try to bunk everybody
23 up. Yeah.
24 : Now is that policy or
25 just a decision that was made?
EFTA00059713
44
1 : No, that's something that, you
2 know, from when I started at the Bureau, we did
3 that, because once you knew individuals receive
4 - you can't - policy states that you're not
5 supposed to have an AD, Administrative
6 Detention person and a person that's under
7 disciplinary segregation together, housed
8 together. It's supposed to be separate.
9 : Okay.
10 : That's the policy that they
11 that's 5270, you know, point whatever the new
12 number is, 9 or 10, right, the SHU program
13 statement. When Psychology says that this
14 person tried to harm themselves, we make sure
15 that they have to have a bunkie. So, you know,
16 they have a companion or somebody in there that
17 they could talk to so that, you know, they
18 don't feel despondent, you know. SHU is a
19 place, you know, if you don't check on these
20 inmates, you know, they're going to remind you.
21 : Right.
22 : So, you know, you've got to
23 make rounds, you've got to check on - be
24 checking
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