EFTA00090036.pdf

5/4/2021 9:05 AM UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK x • • • • X Date: Time: Participants: EFTA00090036  1 1 [II]: [II]: Hey there. 2 .]: - you- he's four and a half months. Say hi, come on, say hi 3 to her. [U/I) 4 [II]: Hi, hello. Hello. 5 [II]: Say hi, get your baby. 6 [II]: Hello. [II]: On (U/I) 7 [II]: Hello. 8 [II]: Say hi. Say hi. Get your baby. (U/I) baby. 9 [II]: Oh, look at you guys. 10 [II]: Say hi. Okay. Okay. Would you like some water? 11 [UM1): No thanks. III): I'm good, thank you. 12 [II]: Happy to help in any way I possibly can. 13 [II]: No, you're- you've been more than gracious already, and I thank 14 you for your time. 15 [II]: Oh, you're welcome. 16 [II]: Do you mind if we sit down? [II]: No, please that's- do you want one of those? I could get another 17 chair if you want to sit there. 18 (UM1): [U/I) 19 [II]: They are good lookin' dogs. That's nice. 20 [II]: Yeah, they're sweet. 21 [II]: Good for them. Okay, um, you're probably under some time constraints. 22 [II]: I have an hour. 23 [II]: Okay. 24 [II]: Yeah. But I have a little less than an hour because I have to 25 walk my dogs. EFTA00090037  2 1 CUM1): Okay. [II]: (U/I) not coming until 4:45. 2 [II]: Well then, we will try to get this done as- 3 [II]: Okay. 4 - quickly as we can and then if not, we can always reschedule. 5 I'll (U/I1 6 [II]: Are you recording this? [II]: I am, is that okay? 7 [II]: Yes, go for it. 8 [II]: Okay. Alright, let me get this all set up. So, I'm Special Agent 9 This ism. 10 [II]: Okay. 11 [II]: Uh, you can call me III): Okay. 12 III): You're fine as far as that goes. Um, you are not in any trouble, 13 uh- 14 (II]: No, I know. 15 [II]: You- I'm sure you already kinda have an idea in terms of what 16 we're looking, uh, into and things like that, but just, uh, for clarity's sake, we are looking into some things that went on at 17 Zorro Ranch, here in New Mexico. Uh, we've been given some 18 information that you might be familiar with the ranch and with 19 Jeff Epstein- Epstein. Uh- 20 [II]: (U/I1 starting to watch (U/I) 21 [II]: - and maybe some of the other people, so, we wanted to talk to you about it. Um, you're under no obligation to talk to us. 22 [II]: Okay. 23 [II]: Uh, you can kick us out if you want to kick us out. Uh, we don't 24 plan on yelling or whatever it is that they do on TV, we plan on 25 being incredibly nice. EFTA00090038  3 II): Okay. II): So, uh, as long as you don't try to hit one of us, I think we'll 2 all- 3 [II): You won't have a problem. 4 [II]: - I think we'll all just be okay. 5 [II]: Not at all. 6 [II]: Okay, so- [II]: Happy to help. 7 [II]: We'll start off with the easy questions, and I know you're 8 pressed for time, so we'll probably segue into some pretty direct 9 questions after that. 10 [II]: Okay. 11 [II]: Usually it- we spend more time, uh, but don't take offense to it if we just kinda jump forward. 12 [II]: That's fine. 13 [II]: Uh- 14 [II]: I'll do my best to answer it however I can. 15 [II]: Okay. So, what is your full name? 16 [M]: I don't need to (U/I] [II]: And what's your date of birth? 17 [M]: 18 [II]: And how old are you right now, if you don't mind me asking? 19 [III: Oh, III 20 [II]: Okay. And where do you live? 21 [U] I live in [II]: What's your address? 22 [a]: excuse me. 23 [II]: Okay. And I've got a phone number for you: 24 [II]: That's business, yes. 25 [II]: Okay. Is that a good number to contact you at? EFTA00090039  4 II): Yeah, or my cell that I called you at. II): Okay. And, despite the fact that we're sitting here, how are you 2 employed? 3 [II]: I'm a therapist. So, I've been a therapist for twenty-four years 4 and do reflexology very rarely, but that's what I did at Zorro 5 Ranch since, uh- for thirty-five years. Since 1984. 6 [II]: So, reflexology for thirty-four years? [II]: Thirty-five. 7 [II]: Thirty-five years. 8 [II]: Twenty-four years as a psychotherapist. 9 [II]: Okay. Well, you seem to be a jack of all trades. You can fix my 10 mind and my body. 11 (III: Well, I mostly do this. I do this very rarely, but sure, people who have neuropathy, recently, otherwise it's a storage table. 12 [II]: Okay. 13 [II]: Yeah. 14 [II]: And just so you know, we'll take notes while you're talking. 15 [II]: That's fine. 16 [II]: It always looks really rude, `cause I'm not looking at you while you're talking but- 17 (III: I do that with my- 18 [II]: Yeah. 19 [II]: - with my counseling clients- 20 [II]: Okay. 21 [II]: - I get it. [II]: I just- 22 [II]: No, no, I understand completely. 23 [II]: - I don't want to come across that way, so. Okay, uh, so, 24 therapist for twenty-four years, reflexology for thirty-four 25 years. EFTA00090040  5 1 [II]: Thirty-five. [II]: Thirty-five. Sorry. 2 [II]: So, 1985- or 84, uh, started reflexology back in and 3 then, um, I've been out here since and then I've been a 4 therapist since 5 [II]: What part of 6 [II]: Uh, [II]: I was born in 7 [II]: You were? 8 [II]: I was. 9 [II]: My family moved to 10 [II]: Nice. My family moved to 11 [II]: Did they? [III: Yeah. Okay, uh, what- what qualifications do you have to be a 12 therapist and to be a reflexologist? 13 [II]: Well, I got cer- as a reflexologist, I got certified through the 14 National Institute of Reflexology and then, uh, through, uh, 15 and then I went over to England and 16 started (U/I] with (U/I]. Um, he founded the College of Reflexology in London, or n- outside of London. And then I kinda 17 (U/I] him for about three weeks- 18 [II - 5:04]: Okay. 19 [II]: - while I was getting license certification. 20 [II]: Okay. 21 [II]: And here, I've a masters in, uh, excuse me- I'm an LPCC, which is a licensed professional clinical counselor. 22 [II]: Okay. 23 [II]: And that makes you a psychotherapist. I can't, um, diagnose. 24 Excuse me, I can diagnose, but I can't prescribe meds. 25 (II): Okay. EFTA00090041  1 [II]: Yeah. And this is my passion. [II]: Is it? 2 [II]: Yeah. Oh, I love it. 3 [II]: Good. Good for you. I may come see you at some point. 4 [II]: Yeah, solution, focus-based therapist. 5 III]: Good. Alright, um, for the most part, that's the background that 6 I wanna go over, so now we'll kinda jump into some of the other stuff, again, just `cause you're kinda pressed for time. Um, you 7 know that we're looking into Zorro Ranch and Jeff Epstein. Can 8 you tell us how you're familiar- how you're familiar with, uh, 9 Jeff and what the- and what the ranch- 10 [II]: I was introduced to go over there as a reflexologist by a woman 11 namedI , you probably have her information, too. III): Yeah. 12 [III: She was, I think, a massage therapist for them. She was also a 13 peer, she's a colleague, she's, uh, also a psychotherapist. I 14 think she's recently retired, but I'm not sure, so I can't speak 15 for her. I haven't talked to her ear-to-ear, but she's the one 16 who said, "would you like to do reflexology? I [U/I] clients that- if you'd like that." 17 [II): Okay. 18 [II]: So, that's how I originally was introduced to Zorro Ranch. 19 [II]: Okay. Was she employed there? 20 III]: She- I mean, she worked for them whenever they hired her for a 21 massage. [II]: Okay. 22 [II]: I don't- I can't really speak, `cause I don't know. 23 [II]: Okay. 24 III]: I mean, she was working for them and then she- they want- 25 Ghislaine Maxwell wanted her feet worked on and so, I'm the EFTA00090042  7 1 reflexologist that they hired. [II]: Okay. 2 [II]: Yeah. 3 [II]: Ghislaine Maxwell? 4 [II]: Right. 5 [II]: What year was that? 6 [II]: I think the first, uh, first treatment was probably in 1999. And the last one was in 2008 when I- 7 [II]: Hey, sweetheart. 8 [II]: Irvin come on sweetie, go lie down. Sorry. I don't want him to 9 g- 10 IUM1): No, no. 11 III): Goof your pants up. III): No, you're okay. 12 [III: I'll put him on a leash. 13 [II]: You're okay. I have dogs. I'm pretty sure you- do you- 14 IUM1]: I do. 15 (II]: Yes. 16 [II]: Yeah. [II]: Yeah, we'll be okay. We'll survive it. 17 [II]: Good. 18 [II]: Okay, so, I'm sorry, in 1999? 19 (II]: I think was the very first treatment, I mean, I- I didn't do it 20 regularly, but I- whenever they came into town, or I'd- actually, 21 it was Ghislaine that I worked on mostly. [II]: Okay. 22 III]: So, Jeffrey, I think I, I'd have to look at my records, but 23 Jeffrey, I worked probably three times on from `99 to 2008. 24 [II]: Okay. 25 [II]: I hardly ever saw the man. Okay. EFTA00090043  8 1 [II]: Okay, so we're lookin' on and off from '99 to '08. [II]: Correct. 2 [II]: Okay. And you worked in- on Ghislaine mostly- 3 [III: A 1- 4 ICW): - uh, but Jeff sometimes? 5 III): It's- no, I'm talking- I mean, like, Jeff, maybe three times in 6 all those years. I don't know if it's two times, three times, but that was it. He was hardly ever there. 7 [II]: Okay. 8 [Il] : Yeah. 9 [II]: And you said- 10 [II]: If he was there, then I- I didn't see him. 11 [II]: Okay. And you said that you have records for all of that stuff? [II]: I mean, in my invoice. When I say- 12 [II]: Invoicing- 13 [II]: Invoices, yeah. 14 [II]: Okay. Who would you invoice? 15 [II]: Zorro Ranch. 16 [II]: Zorro Ranch. [II]: And I don't remember the name of the c- the housekeepers at the 17 time. But then, so- I don't know what you want me- I'm just going 18 to wait until you ask me questions versus just telling you my 19 experience. Would that be better? 20 [II]: If y- if you feel like there's something important that you need 21 to say, you say it, what- I'm really linear, so, I'll- I'll make sure that, if we start to get off track, we'll come back on 22 track. 23 [II]: Okay. 24 And again, I don't mean it in a rude way, we're just pressed for 25 time. EFTA00090044  9 1 [II]: No, that's fine. [II]: So, go ahead, please. 2 [II]: So, all I was gonna say is, I would go there and since I live in 3 they would- um, she would want a treatment at 4 nighttime, so I would drive- I would do that work at night after 5 I finished my work here. Then I would go and I would wait in the 6 kitchen until the housekeepers, and again, I don't remember their names, but, they would- I'd wait in the kitchen and then they 7 would call me into the- into the library, whatever you call it, 8 and then Ghislaine would come in and I'd work on her feet there. 9 [II]: Okay. H- how were Jeff and Ghislaine related, if at all? 10 [II]: Companions, or- 11 [II]: Companions. [II]: I don't really know the intimacy details but my understanding, 12 back then, I think that they'd been together for thirteen years, 13 or whatever, and I think she sort of presented that she- she 14 would manage his properties, but I think that they had a 15 relationship, but I don't really know the details because that's 16 not a part of my business. [II]: Okay. So- 17 [II]: I mean, I never saw them where they were in any- 18 III]: Together-together. 19 [II]: Yeah, together. 20 [II]: In any sort of- 21 [II]: Yeah, obvious way. [II]: I guess romantic way- 22 [III]: Right, exactly. 23 [II]: Or obvious way. Sure. How many times would you say, and it 24 doesn't have to be exact, how many times would you say you were 25 out at the ranch between '99 and '08? EFTA00090045  10 1 [II]: Uh, I'm guessing. (U/I] um- [II]: Sure. 2 [II]: Maybe thirty? In nine years. 3 (II]: As far as that invoicing goes, `cause that might help us narrow 4 that down a little bit or get a little bit more exact, would you 5 have any problem turning that stuff over to us at some point? 6 [II]: No, I mean, I- [II]: Not the originals, obviously. 7 [II]: Right. 8 [II]: Like, copies. 9 [II]: I mean, I can give you information from it. 10 [II]: Yeah. 11 [II]: Yeah. (II): Okay. Would you- would you do that? 12 (II- 10:001: But what I would do- what I would do in an invoice, is 13 would- would say, "reflexology session- Ghislaine," and so if 14 went back and looked, I would see Jeffrey was in there. Like- 15 III): Okay. 16 [II]: -like, it'd be, "reflexology for thirty-five min- uh, forty-five minutes," to Jeffrey, and Ghislaine it could have been two hours. 17 (II]: Okay. 18 Yeah. 19 (II]: Would you put something like that together for us? I mean, it 20 doesn't have to be today or anything, but maybe just like a- 21 [II]: I'll write something up. [II]: - like a list or a spreadsheet- 22 [II]: Sure, yeah. 23 [II]: - or something like that. 24 [II]: I can write it up and just give you the dates or how many times I 25 worked on them. EFTA00090046  11 1 [II]: Okay. [II]: Is that what you'd like? Like- 2 [.]: Yeah. 3 [II]: - how many times I worked on Jeffrey, and how many times- 4 III]: Yeah. That w- yeah- 5 [II]: - I worked on Ghislaine. That's fine? 6 [II]: - yeah, dates, dates and how many- and- and who it was that you saw that day. 7 [II]: Okay. Sure. 8 [II]: Did you ever, uh, do any other work out there? 9 [II]: No. 10 [II]: Did you ever work on anybody else while you were out there? 11 [II]: No. No. III): Okay. 12 III]: The only thing that I remember doing, and you have to bear with 13 me because I had a car accident, but it was back in 2000, but so, 14 it affects my memory a little bit, but, that's why I have to 15 refer to- to, like, looking at invoices, but, um, there was one- 16 one time when I worked on Jeffrey, he asked one of his massage therapists to come down and have me teach him- her how to do 17 reflexology. 18 [II]: Do you remember who that was? 19 [II]: So, she would sit- no, no idea. Who the name was or anything. So 20 she came down and pulled up a chair and I'm telling her how to 21 do- it- do a session, which isn't really teaching very much in that- 22 [II]: (Laughter] 23 [II]: - He liked my work. When I did it, again, I only worked on him a 24 few times, but it was very professional. 25 (II]: Okay. EFTA00090047  12 II): Yeah. II): And you said that your sessions typically lasted an hour? Is that 2 right? 3 [II]: Oh, I mean, it's whatever they- however people want it, but 4 usually it's an hour, but sometimes she'd want extra time, 5 Ghislaine would want extra time, so, like, an hour, hour and a 6 half. [II]: Okay. Would you say on average it's about an hour? 7 [II]: Yeah. 8 [II]: Okay. 9 [II]: I mean, that's normally what my treatments are in general, but 10 when people want, like, I have people coming in in a few weeks 11 here, so, (U/II when they say, "can we have an hour and a half," it's (U/I). 12 tll): Okay. 13 [II]: But that's pretty rare. 14 [II]: Okay. And you said that you would drive yourself there? Is that 15 right? 16 [II]: Yes. [II]: And you would drive yourself back? 17 [II]: Oh, yeah. 18 [II): And it was typically during the evening hours? 19 [II]: Evening. Late at night. 20 [II): What time are we talkin'? 21 [II]: It could be- I mean, `cause I work here usually `till seven, so- [II]: Sure. 22 [II]: - I may not get there `till eight or nine. Wasn't like I was 23 there `till midnight, but I would work- it would depend, and 24 sometimes, if I was asked to (U/I) I would. 25 (III: Okay. What- and I know it's a big house, uh- uh- EFTA00090048  13 1 III]: And I never saw- all I saw was the kitchen and the- the, I saw the kitchen and then the, I guess, for lack of better words, the, 2 uh, off the kitchen, like a, not a maid's quarters, but I'd be 3 asked to sit there and wait, `cause I wasn't allowed in the rest 4 of the house. 5 Okay. 6 So, I'm sorry, I'm looking mostly at You're fine. 7 You're okay. 8 Um, so, I would be- I'd have to sit and wait until she was ready, 9 when she was finished dinner or if they had guests or whatever, I 10 would have to wait. I would- sometimes it would be a long wait, 11 but not often, they were pretty respect- she was pretty respectful. But I would wait there and then the housekeepers 12 would just ask me if- "do you want some water," and then they 13 would lead me into the room. I always worked- maybe there was one 14 time I worked on her in her- in her bedroom, not one time that I 15 work on her in her bedroom, but I mostly worked in the library or 16 whatever you want to call it, right off the kitchen. So I never saw the rest of the fifty-thousand square-foot house. 17 [II]: Well, you- we- we may have never seen you again. 18 [II]: Yeah. 19 [II]: You may have got lost. 20 [II]: I know. They needed a walkie-talkie. 21 [II]: Okay, so- [II]: But the housekeepers were lovely and everybody was nice to me. 22 [II]: Okay. So we're lookin' at the library off of the kitchen and 23 maybe one time in the bedroom? 24 [II]: More- probably more- more than one time, it was dependent upon 25 how she was feeling. So that was it. So, I would be escorted EFTA00090049  14 1 upstairs to her bedroom, never saw him, and then- but most of the time it was downstairs right off the kitchen going into this 2 library-study area, and then I- she got on- on a couch and I 3 would sit on the couch and work on her feet. 4 [II): Okay. 5 III): Yeah. So I can't say- it was definitely more than once in her 6 bedroom, but- okay. 7 [Ilj: It was mostly in that library. 8 [II): And you're referring to it as her bedroom, was it only her 9 bedroom? 10 [II): I mean, that's all- 11 [III: As far as you know? [III: - I know. Yeah. 12 [II): Yeah. 13 [II): That's all I know. I don't know what else happens. 14 [II): Okay. The times that you were there, it sounds like there was one 15 time where you were kind of training a massage therapist. Uh, did 16 anybody else ever sit in in the sessions, talk to Ghislaine or to Jeff while they were being worked on, or anything like that? 17 (II): No. 18 [II): Okay. So, for the most part- 19 [III: (U/I) 20 [II): You guys had a fairly exclusive relationship. 21 [II): That's right. [II): Okay. Um, just between gettin' your hair cut or gettin' 22 reflexology done, or something like that, typically, uh, at least 23 for me, like, I end up engaging in quite a bit of conversation. I 24 imagine that you engaged in quite a bit of conversation over '99 25 to '08. What were those conversations like? EFTA00090050  15 1 [IV Uh, I mean, they- they would talk to me about my work, to talk about, uh, she had a place in New York. Um, there was nothing- I 2 know what you're- I think I know what you're leading up to, I 3 don't- I never witnessed- I can just jump in, I never witnessed 4 any of the things that Jeffrey is being accused of. 5 [II - 15:15): Sure. 6 [II]: That I never saw. There was only one time that I was there when his other- they were being driven from the airport or a 7 helicopter and I was waiting in that room off the kitchen, where 8 then they arrived as I'm waiting for Ghislaine, to work on 9 Ghislaine, and there were, uh, several young women, that were 10 girls, that would be there, and I was only- I don't know if 11 told me or- or, uh, Ghislaine told me that they were, uh, working for the Limited or Victoria's Secret or they were just younger 12 girls of who they- that they- I never talked to them, like, they 13 never- I was never introduced to them, like, "this is the 14 reflexologist," except for that one woman who was his massage 15 therapist. But that's the only time I saw- saw, um, young women. 16 [II]: Okay. And you said [II]: I never know where- what they did or where they went or anything. 17 [II]: Okay. 18 [II]: I just was sitting there, they arrived in the space I was in, 19 then they walked- then they were escorted somewhere else that 20 I'm- waiting to be called back to work on Ghislaine's feet. 21 [II]: Okay. You said who's-? [II]: The- the woman who introduced me to- 22 [II]: Oh, 23 [II]: - (U/I) yeah, yeah. 24 [II]: Okay. 25 [II]: So, I really didn't know the- there's not a lot of questions EFTA00090051  16 1 because of her- who she is, I mean, `cause you obviously know who she- 2 [II]: Sure. 3 [II]: - is in the background. I just did my work and I left. Some- 4 [II]: Yeah. 5 [II]: I wasn't- I'm very professional, so, I went in, worked on her 6 feet and she- and she might chat about- she always wanted me to tell her stories about my counseling clients. Not, like, any 7 breaking any confidentiality- 8 [II]: Sure. 9 [II]: - but she would just be sorta fascinated, like, "tell me a story 10 of what you work on," or- 11 (II): Okay. (ll): - "what kind of- what kind of work you do with couples," or- 12 [II]: Okay. 13 [II]: - that's s- that's about it. 14 [II]: Okay. This time where, uh, these people arrived from this plane 15 or helicopter- 16 [III]: Right. [II]: Um, you said that they were driven in. Do you know who drove 17 them? 18 [II]: Oh, I don't know if it was driven. I just know- I remember that 19 Ghislaine, I think, had a helicopter license, so I don't know if 20 they came in a helicopter, but I don't think that many people can 21 fit in a helicopter, but I'm guessing that it's- I'd say- I still have no idea what airport they came from. 22 [II]: Okay. 23 [II]: Yeah. 24 [II]: Okay. Do you know- 25 [II]: Again, I never spoke to them. I just looked up, saw these people EFTA00090052  17 1 and some other- what- it- it- it was a chauffeur or a driver- the housekeeper, `cause there were- again, I can't remember, it was 2 so long ago. But whoever the housekeepers were, who had managed 3 their world, somebody went and picked them- picked them all up. 4 So, it wasn't like they arrived and I saw Jeffrey come in. It was 5 the- these young women and then other- adult- 6 [II): Okay. [II]: - who had brought them, who I think was the driver or who worked 7 for- who was one of their staff. 8 [III: Okay. When you say, "young," so, we've kinda gone back and forth 9 between young women and girls. What would you estimate their age 10 to be? And again- 11 (II): So, this is a guesstimate. (II): - it doesn't have to be specific. Sure. 12 (II): So, I mean, certainly, uh, I'm looking at- I'm- again, it's hard 13 as you get older to judge, but- 14 [III: Sure. 15 [II]: - I'm saying probably, uh, like, eighteen or under. 16 [II]: Eighteen and under. [II]: But I never saw- I- `cause I've been watching the news, I never 17 saw someone who looked fourteen or fifteen. But again, I don't- 18 back then, I didn't- but they were just young, attractive girls. 19 [II]: Sure. How were they dressed? 20 [II]: Like, I mean, I didn't really, like- it wasn't, like, in any 21 suggestive way, they were just dressed, like, in a normal- [II]: Like, normal way? 22 [II]: Like I'm dressed right now. 23 [II]: Okay. 24 III]: Yeah. But I really didn't- again, I didn't notice (U/I) not 25 like I saw them for long, they literally came in the space, look EFTA00090053  18 1 up, see them, and then they're moved- so, they're walked on through- 2 [II): Okay. 3 III): - and then I'm still waiting there to be called back for 4 Ghislaine. 5 III): Okay. I know it was a very short time, like, they're basically 6 just moving from left to right, essentially. [II]: Right. 7 [II]: Did you ever see anyone, uh, mis- or hear, maybe, anyone mistreat 8 them, or? 9 [II]: No. 10 [II]: `Cause I know they're kinda being guided through the house. 11 [II]: Yeah, no, I never saw or heard any mistreatment. [III: And you said the housekeepers kinda managed- managed them? Or 12 managed the whole house? 13 [II]: Managed the whole- I mean, there were- I mean, it was such a 14 large home, so I- 15 [II): Yeah. 16 [II): - I guess, like, they were the staff that would manage- I don't know what- all the things they managed, whether it was people- 17 guests coming, what they needed. So, like, they would come in and 18 say, "would you like some water," and I would get it on a silver 19 tray with a white laced [U/I] and a glass of [U/I1 something like 20 that. So, they're very gracious to me, but, so, I- they just 21 managed the house, so I guess you'd call them caretakers, maybe? [II]: Okay. 22 [II]: Right. I don't know. 23 [III: How many? 24 [II]: Two. 25 [II]: Male or f- EFTA00090054  19 1 [II]: That I saw, but I don't know. I mean, I'm sure there were staff, like, gardeners or- 2 [II]: Sure. 3 Uh, just the people who were- who I met, um, were just, uh- I 4 think actually they were a couple, but I'm not sure if that's 5 6 [II]: Okay. [III: But they were- 7 [I : So, a male and a female? 8 [II]: Yes, but they were lovely. 9 [II]: Okay. 10 [II]: To me they were lovely. Yeah. 11 [II]: Okay. [II - 20:00]: And now I'm blanking on, like, who would call me up- 12 again, I apologize for the memory, but I think it was- Ghislaine 13 would never call me directly, but it was- one of the housekeepers 14 would say, "they're coming into town," or, "she's coming into 15 town early, and who- are you- when are you available `cause she 16 wants her feet worked on." So, sometimes when she would be there, let's say she was there for five days, I might go for three- two 17 or three of the nights and go give her a treatment and then go 18 home. 19 [II]: Okay. So you think it was the housekeepers? And you mentioned 20 I'm sorry. 21 [II]: I didn't- I didn't say_. [II]: Oh, I thought you said or something. No? 22 [II]: No. No. 23 [II]: Okay. 24 [II]: Just the house- I'm just saying they would call- it wasn't 25 Ghislaine who would ever call me directly, ever. It was someone- EFTA00090055  20 1 whoever managed her world, um, they would call and say, "can you come- this is when they're coming." Uh, I keep saying "they" and 2 I don't mean it, because I really, I- I think it's, like, three 3 times I saw Jeffrey that- 4 [Il]: Okay. 5 [II]: Yeah. 6 [II]: And definitely more Ghislaine? [II]: Oh, I mean, completely. It was all Ghislaine, most of the time, 7 yeah. 8 (II): Okay. Um, you're obviously a professional, you've mentioned that 9 already. Uh, how about Ghislaine's con- conduct? 10 [II]: Her conduct was complete- completely normal. 11 [II]: Okay. (II): I mean, really, you have to remember- and I think, and I'm just 12 saying this, it's not off the record `cause you're recording it, 13 but it's- I'm- I'm not the young girls that have been violated. 14 So- 15 (II): Sure. 16 (II): - I was just- all- the only that said is that if- actually, they wanted, `cause Ghislaine worked in- had a home, I guess, or 17 I don't know who's home, uh, if it was Jeffrey's home or 18 Ghislaine's home, but, um, she w- wanted to notify if I 19 knew anyone to refer- ref- a reflexologist to in Manhattan. 20 III]: Okay. 21 [II]: They had- but she- they always said, "but you have to be attractive." So, that was the one thing that disturbed me. You 22 know, that you can't really be on the property unless you're 23 attractive. 24 [II]: Whose rule was that? 25 [II]: I don't know. EFTA00090056  21 1 It's okay. [II]: It's hot here. 2 [II]: That's 3 [II]: Hey, baby. How are you? 4 [II]: [U/II thanks. 5 [II]: How are you sweetheart? Yeah. You are beautifully groomed. 6 [II]: They help my- [II]: I know. 7 [III: - counseling clients a lot. 8 [UM1): Yeah. 9 [II]: You are beautifully groomed. Yes, you are, ma'am. That's 10 [II]: St- that's- 11 [III: Oh, nd 12 [II]: Okay. 13 [II]: They are [U/I) particularly [U/I). 14 [II]: That's not a bad thing. 15 [II]: Okay, so, get back, sweetie pie. But all- go lie down. 16 [II]: And who was the person that relayed that to you? [II]: Uh, 17 [II]: Okay. 18 [II]: I think it was yeah. It wasn't any staff- it wasn't that 19 couple. 20 [II]: Okay. How long had worked for them- 21 [II]: I don't know. [II]: - before you? 22 [II]: I- I would be a guest, so- 23 [II]: Sure. 24 [II]: I mean, I don't know if it was six months, I really- it's- I'm- 25 I'm literally guessing. But- EFTA00090057  22 1 (II): Okay. (II): - I have no idea. I don't speak with I mean, she's off in 2 her world and we're not- she- like I said, we're both 3 but she- 4 ll.]: Yeah. When is the last time you spoke to her? 5 III]: A 1- I mean, I saw her in the store probably three years ago or 6 something. [II]: Okay. 7 [II]: I really- again, I don't remember. She did send me an email 8 saying, "look at- look what's going on with Jeffrey." So, I got 9 that probably within the past month, but I haven't spoken to her 10 ear-to-ear. 11 (..): Did you guys have any sort of discussion after that email? (II): No, I have not yet. 12 [II]: Okay. 13 [II]: But I was- I'm going to. 14 [U]: I imagine you will. 15 [..]: Yeah. Have you- you haven't contacted her obviously yet or no, 16 you can't tell me? Uh, so we went by her, uh- no, it's fine. So, we went by her 17 house in uh, but it looks like somebody is renting it 18 now. It doesn't look like she's there and I guess, and you might 19 be able to clear it up, I guess she lives in 20 [II]: She- she worked in I don't know where she lives. 21 [II]: Okay. [II]: I knew she had a house in off, I think, (U/I) or 22 something- 23 [II]: Yeah. 24 [II]: Yeah. But she worked in 25 [II]: Okay. EFTA00090058  23 1 [II] : Yeah. So we would refer people to each other, counseling clients, but- 2 [II]: Okay. 3 [II]: Yeah. 4 [II]: Do you know if she- 5 III]: But I don't even know if she- how long she- if she's doing this 6 massage- I don't think she does that at all anymore. She's very successful- 7 [] : Good. 8 [Ill]: - 9 [II]: Good for her. 10 [II]: Yeah. 11 [II]: Do you know if she referred any people to the- to- to Ghislaine or Jeff? 12 [II]: I don't know. 13 [II]: Okay. Was there- 14 [II]: `Cause really, the- the- so, I was the reflexologist and then, I 15 don't know how often went there but she just- the reason 16 why she originally got in touch with me is because Ghislaine wanted her feet work- worked on. 17 [II]: Okay. 18 [II]: And I'm a good so she then said, you know, "would 19 you like me to refer you to them." And I said, "sure." And I 20 didn't know anything more. 21 III): Okay. Was there any sort of incentive or anything like that that you're aware of for referrals? So- 22 [II): No. 23 [II): No. 24 [II): You mean, like, if they were- if she was getting a commission? 25 Or- EFTA00090059  24 1 [Ili: N- so, uh, let's imagine that you- that approached you and she said, "hey, you know, if you know somebody in New York, if 2 you'll refer them, as long as they're attractive, obviously, um, 3 and there's incentive in it for you, which is-" 4 [II]: Oh, no. 5 [II]: Okay. 6 [II]: You mean, like, if she said to me, "there's the incentive for you- would be-" for me? 7 [II]: Yeah. 8 [II]: No. 9 [II]: Okay. 10 [II - 25:001: No, no. She just asked for- if there was a name. And 11 Ghislaine would say, "if you ever come to New York, let me know. I'd love you to work on my feet." 12 [III: Okay. 13 [II]: She really like- I mean, she really liked my work. She's just- 14 who she- she was very relaxed and very, um- but she was not, um- 15 I would never ask a client questions or- 16 [II): Sure. [II): - anything like that, she just wanted to know about, like, "tell 17 me- tell me a story, tell me what you work on," that's all she 18 really did. 19 [II]: Okay. Did you ever travel? 20 [II]: No. To- to work on her feet? 21 [II]: Uh, in general. Either- [II]: Oh, I travel- 22 [II]: - either to work- 23 [] : - all my life. 24 [II]: Well, sure. 25 [II]: But not to work- yeah. EFTA00090060  25 1 [II]: Either to work with her or with Jeff or with Ghislaine. [II]: Oh, no. I know he had, um, people who fl- who he flew to 2 wherever- either one of his homes, so I knew that, like a massage 3 therapist or a cook, or- and all I ever heard was little things, 4 like, I don't know if I heard that from or Ghislaine, but 5 that every time they would have a guest, that they would, um, you 6 had to do everything specifically, like, if they were at the dinner table, you would- they had to be served a certain way from 7 a certain- like, "come to the left," or, I can't remember who 8 told me that but I was sorta fascinated, it had to be that exact. 9 And I'll sh- I'll also share that, um, this is probably 10 significant, that they, um, at- wanted me to- this is sort of 11 when I stopped working for them, but they wanted me to sign a contract that anything I saw- so, that's good for you, right? 12 [II): Yeah. 13 [II): Um, anything I saw that I- and that was towards the end `cause I 14 was getting burnt out because I would go late at night after 15 working on stuff, I mean, treating- uh, counseling people here. 16 [II): Sure. [II]: And then at night it got exhausting for me. And driving- 17 [II]: Yeah. 18 [II): -late at night. So, but they s- wanted me to sign a contract 19 saying, like, a celebrity contract, like, "if you know anybody- 20 if you see anything going on here you have to keep it private." 21 And I refused to sign it. [II]: Sure. Who- who approached you with that? 22 [II]: That's what I'm trying to remember. It wasn't, uh, Ghislaine, it 23 might've been the housekeeper. One of the housekeepers, I wish I 24 could remember, who it was. 25 [II]: Okay. EFTA00090061  26 1 [II): But it was something that was kind of floating around, like, it's about to happen where you need to, like, there's gonna be a 2 contract and- what sits- remains in my mind, whether it's true or 3 not, is if I did violate that contract, I'd be sued for two 4 hundred and fifty thousand dollars. And I was like, uh, "no way. 5 I'm-" 6 [II]: Yeah. [II]: "- not doing that. I'm coming innocently giving you a treatment, 7 I'm not getting involved- I don't even know what goes on, I don't 8 have any idea, but I'm whatever-" `cause they would say- and then 9 I was- it was kind of inferred that there could be celebrities 10 there. And to respect their privacy. 11 [II]: Okay. [II]: And obviously everything that's coming up in the news now, the 12 people who could have been there. 13 [II]: Sure. 14 [II]: Or, the relationships with- with Jeffrey. 15 [II]: Sure. 16 [III: That they knew him. I mean, it's making me sick actually. The whole thing- 17 (II): It's, uh- 18 [II]: - is- I don't want to cry right now, but the stuff that I'm 19 hearing- 20 [II]: I don't want to make you cry. 21 [II]: Oh no, it's okay, but I just- I saw something, I think- on the other day of a woman who said he raped her and, um, it make- it 22 was- made me feel sick that that was going on. `Cause that was 23 never anything that I wit- like, I even sensed, being in their 24 home. Just that they were big- all I- all I could say is, all- 25 from my sort of innocent place is that, I knew I- I'm in the EFTA00090062  27 1 house of fifty- fifty thousand square foot house, I knew Ghislaine's background, right? And all I knew is that Jeffrey was 2 a person who, I mean, who would only take accounts that had to 3 be, like, a billion dollars or more, and that's all and so, I 4 just did my work- and did my work and left. So I didn't- but 5 there wasn't things that I saw or I'd tell you in a second `cause 6 I want this man to be prosecuted appropriately. [II]: Sure. 7 [II]: Yeah. 8 [II]: Uh, as far as your treatments for Jeffrey went, what- what would 9 you treat for him? So, for Ghislaine, it was her feet. 10 [II]: Well, I only did reflex- that's all I've been trained in. 11 [II]: Okay. [II): I'm not a massage therapist. 12 [II]: Okay. 13 [II]: So, I would just work on his feet. 14 [III: Okay. 15 [II]: And sometimes he- sometimes Ghislaine would come in, like, 1- I'm 16 thinking of the time- so, she- I worked on her mostly, like 98% of the time, 99% of the time, and the times that I worked on 17 Jeffrey, s- like, maybe one or two times it would be a full 18 treatment, and I can look at my invoices for you, but, um, 19 sometimes he'd want to just come in and have, like, a thirty 20 minute treatment and then- so, she'd have half of it and- or d- 21 no, that's when I- she would ask for extra time. So, I'd work on her for an hour, he'd come in, maybe took forty-five minutes and 22 then he would leave. 23 [II]: Okay. 24 [II]: Yeah. 25 [II]: Did anything odd or inappropriate ever happen during your EFTA00090063  28 1 sessions with Jeff? [II]: The only thing that happened that I did not appreciate is that he 2 came down in his bathrobe and so- and he was not dressed 3 underneath it and so, it- it seemed that- I mean, he didn't 4 expose himself to me in any way or I would have left the house. 5 [II]: Sure. 6 [II]: And I would have said something, but it was just, uh- you could tell that he was, sort of- he was there, loving the treatment, 7 and then the massage therapist that he wanted me to train was 8 there but then the bathrobe would be there and you can tell that, 9 like, even if something started to open up in the bathrobe, I 10 never saw his body literally, but it was- he wasn't being mindful 11 about covering himself. [II]: Okay. 12 [II]: But again, I never saw his penis or anything. I'm being graphic, 13 sorry. 14 [II - 30:03]: No, no, no, you're fine. 15 [II]: Yeah. 16 [II]: We've- we've heard- [II]: Yeah, true, you've heard- 17 [II]: - significantly worse, obviously. 18 [II]: - you've heard a lot worse, right. 19 [II]: Um- 20 [II]: So, I never- I never- he was never, ever inappropriate with me. 21 He was very respectful to me, was fascinated about my work, he wanted to know about my work, my training, and he was like, "can 22 you train," you know, "can you help," and I said, "I can help in 23 an- like, have her watch me, but it took me a long time to learn 24 what I'm doing but I can help her." 25 [II]: Yeah. EFTA00090064  29 1 (II): So, I would- that was it. But he was never inappropriate to me, always respectful. 2 (II): Okay. Uh, this robe thing, was that every time or was it just the 3 one time? 4 (III: No. I don't rem- uh, I think it- I think it was just one time. 5 But I- but I think that, you know, because I work from the feet 6 up to the knee- [II]: Yeah. 7 [II]: - so I don't remember, as you're asking that question, if he had 8 jeans on so, he might- might have been in his bathrobe all the 9 time, I don't- but I don't recall. I definitely remember one time 10 he came down in a white bathrobe. 11 (III: And the way that you described it, that was the same time that the massage therapist- 12 [III: No. 13 [II): - was there? 14 [II]: No. No, that was another time. 15 [II): Or that was a different time. 16 [II]: Right. [II]: Okay. 17 [II]: I really- and again, I'm trying, to do my best to 18 remember- 19 [II]: No, you're fine. 20 [II]: - (U/I) back then. 21 [II]: You're fine. This was, if we're looking at that's what, . 22 Or cl- or- 23 No, years ago. 24 yeah. 25 Ah. EFTA00090065  30 1 [II]: It's just hard to remember the details, I'm doing my best. [II]: Yeah. No, no, no, you're fine. 2 [II]: And when- when if I work on Ghislaine, she would be there whether 3 she was in, you know, shorts or whatever, she would, obviously, 4 have her bare legs or if I worked at- often I would work on her, 5