EFTA00126647.pdf

1 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL JUNE 15, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00126647  2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE EFTA00126648  3 1 : All right. The recorder 2 is on. Today is Tuesday, June 15, 2021, and 3 the time is 10:08 a.m. My name is 4 and I am a Senior Special Agent 5 with the U.S. Department of Justice Office of 6 the Inspector General, New York Field Office. 7 And these are my credentials. 8 : Okay. 9 : This interview with 10 Federal Bureau of Prisons employee - let me see 11 - is it 12 : Yes. 13 • , is being 14 conducted as part of an official U.S. 15 Department of Justice Office of the Inspector 16 General investigation. Today's date is - again 17 - June 15, 2021. This interview is being 18 conducted at the West Side - within the West 19 Side Administrative Building, second floor 20 conference room, FCI Fort Dix, New Jersey. 21 Also present is DOJ OIG Special Agent 22 and This interview will be 23 recorded by me, Senior Special Agent 24 . Could everyone please identify 25 themselves for the record, and spell their last EFTA00126649  4 1 name? To start, again, I am DOJ OIG Senior 2 Special Agent, 3 4 : This is DOJ Special Agent 5 6 : This is BOP employee, 7 8 : All right. Thank you, 9 everyone. And this is an official DOJ 10 investigation surrounding the circumstances of 11 Jeffrey Epstein's death, and you are being 12 asked to voluntarily provide answers to our 13 questions. Will you agree to a voluntary 14 interview with the DOJ OIG? 15 : Yes. 16 : Great. We're just going 17 to review the DOJ OIG voluntary interview form. 18 I'm going to read it for the record. It says, 19 United States Department of Justice Office of 20 the Inspector General Warnings and Assurances 21 to Employee Requested to Provide Information on 22 a Voluntary Basis." "You are being asked to 23 provide information as part of an investigation 24 being conducted by the Office of the Inspector 25 General. This investigation is being conducted EFTA00126650  5 1 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 2 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 3 performance failure and security failure. This 4 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do 5 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary 6 action will be taken against you if you choose 7 not to answer questions. Any statements you 8 furnished may be used as evidence in any future 9 criminal proceedings, or Agency disciplinary 10 proceedings, or both." And there is a waiver. 11 It says, " I understand the Warnings and 12 Assurances stated above and I am willing to 13 make a statement and answer questions. No 14 promises or threats have been made to me, and 15 no pressure or coercion of any kind has been 16 used against me." You can take a look at that, 17 if you would like, and if you agree, you can 18 sign where it says Employee's Signature. 19 : (Indiscernible *00:02:57) 20 copy of this. 21 : This isn't what I wanted. 22 Do you need it? Thank you, sir, for signing. I 23 am going to sign as the signature of the Office 24 of the Inspector General Special Agent. And I 25 am going to print my name. do you EFTA00126651  6 1 mind just printing your name where it says 2 Employee's Name? Sorry. 3 : All right. 4 : Right below it. 5 : Thank you, sir. And 6 Special Agent can you sign that as the 7 witness? 8 : Yes. This is Special Agent 9 I have signed as a witness. 10 : Thank you, sir. Can you 11 hold onto that? And do you understand the OIG 12 form? 13 : Yes. 14 : Great. Before starting, 15 I would like you place you under oath. Can you 16 just raise your right hand? , do you 17 swear to tell the truth and nothing but the 18 truth during this interview? 19 : I do. 20 : Thank you, sir. Can you 21 just show me your credentials, for the record, 22 to make sure that -- 23 : Here you go, sir. 24 : -- all right. For the 25 record, I am looking at the U.S. Department of EFTA00126652  7 1 Justice, Federal Bureau of Prisons credentials 2 of . It says that he is the 3 Discipline Hearing Officer at FCI Fort Dix in 4 New Jersey. And it has a picture of him. 5 Thank you, sir. 6 : Okay. 7 : All right. And what is 8 your current home address? 9 -' 10 11 : Thank you. And what is 12 your current cell phone number? 13 : It is 14 : And what is your highest 15 level of education? 16 : I have three years of 17 college. 18 : And where did you go to 19 college? 20 : I went to - I actually have 21 my Associates Degree at Northwestern State 22 University. 23 : And where is that 24 located? 25 : That's going to be in EFTA00126653  8 1 Natchitoches, Louisiana. 2 : Great. And what was that 3 Associate's degree in? 4 : It was in Social Work. 5 : Okay. Great. And then, 6 what year? 7 : I believe it was 2012 or '13. 8 : Great. Thanks. Did you 9 have any employment prior to the BOP? 10 : Yes. I had worked almost two 11 years for the Colorado Department of 12 Corrections. 13 : Okay. 14 : As a Correctional Officer. 15 And before that, I spent 11 years - almost ten 16 years - well, nine years, 11 months in the 17 United States Army. 18 : Awesome. Thanks for your 19 service. 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : When did you work as a 22 Correctional Officer for two years? 23 : In Colorado? 24 : Yes. 25 : I believe the dates were from EFTA00126654  9 1 July of 2004 to November 27 or November 26 of 2 2005. 3 : Okay. Great. And then, 4 you said you were in the - did you say the 5 Army? 6 : Yes. 7 : And what was your rank in 8 the Army? 9 : I was a Sergeant. 10 : Honorable discharge? 11 : Yes. 12 : When you left, what was 13 your primary responsibility? 14 : Basically, at that time, I 15 was a Section Sergeant, as a topographical 16 surveyor. 17 : Okay. And what was that? 18 Where did you say? 19 : Sir? 20 : The topographical? 21 : It's a topographical surveyor 22 -- 23 : Oh, a surveyor. 24 : -- (Indiscernible *00:07:19) 25 surveyor. Right. EFTA00126655  10 1 : Okay. Perfect. And 2 then, you said a Sergeant. E-4, E-5? 3 E-5. 4 : E-5. All right. When 5 was your Enter on Duty date with the Bureau of 6 Prisons? 7 : 09/27/2005. No. I'm sorry. 8 11/27/2005. 9 : Great. And when did you 10 graduate from BOP training down at the Federal 11 Law Enforcement Training Center? 12 : I believe it was March of 13 2006. 14 : Okay. We don't have to 15 go through it. Or I guess, just briefly, I 16 mean, what positions have you held with the 17 BOP? You don't have to go into each 18 institution. Just, like -. 19 : Right. I started as a five, 20 step one. I've - with more responsibility - I 21 was promoted to through six, seven, Senior 22 Officer Specialist. I was also a GL-9 23 Lieutenant. A GL-11 Lieutenant. I was the 24 Deputy Captain, GL-12. And I was also a GL-13. 25 And currently, I am at the GL-12 Discipline EFTA00126656  11 1 Hearing Officer at FCI Fort Dix. 2 : All right. Great. And 3 is it correct that you used to work at the MCC 4 in New York City? 5 : That is correct. 6 : All right. And what were 7 your positions when you were at the MCC? 8 : MCC, I was the Captain. 9 : Okay. And from what 10 dates were you the Captain? 11 : I was the Captain from 12 September of, I believe it was third, 2018, all 13 the way until June 25 of 2020. 14 : Okay. Great. And then, 15 was that your first assignment as a Captain? 16 : No. That was my second. 17 : What was your first 18 assignment as a Captain? 19 : My first assignment as a 20 Captain was - I was a Deputy Captain at MDC 21 Brooklyn. 22 : Okay. And then you got 23 promoted, and went to MCC? 24 : Yes. Yes. 25 : And what does the MCC EFTA00126657  12 1 stand for? 2 The Metropolitan Correctional 3 Center. 4 : Perfect. And located at 5 150 Park Row, New York, New York? 6 : That is correct. 7 : Thank you, sir. As a 8 Captain, who would you consider your Supervisor 9 when you were at the MCC? 10 : It would be, at that point, 11 at that time, we was transitioning. 12 : Okay. 13 : So, I would, normally, I 14 would answer to two people, which would be the 15 AW of Custody, which, at that time, was 16 17 : Okay. 18 : However, we was transitioning 19 when that incident happened. It was 20 was the AW over Custody at that time. 21 : All right. So, when you 22 are talking about that time, are you talking 23 about August 9th and August 10th of 2019? 24 : That is correct. 25 : Okay. So, are you aware EFTA00126658  13 1 of was still the AW in 2 charge of Custody at that time? 3 : No. 4 : She was not? Okay. 5 : No. Basically, what it was 6 again - with the areas of responsibility had 7 changed, prior -- 8 : Okay. 9 to this incident. So, 10 that week, Ms. was going to be 11 even though hers responsibilities had changed 12 as the AW over Custody, and Warden 13 had appointed - or instructed - 14 that would then take over the 15 responsibilities. But however, she was 16 supposed to go on annual leave. 17 : Okay. 18 : So, at that time, Ms. 19 was actually there, as far as, 20 she was still in that capacity when the 21 incident happened. 22 : Okay. 23 : However, again, the previous 24 question that you asked, normally, as my 25 responsibilities, I would notify the AW over EFTA00126659  14 1 Custody, and also, I would have conversations 2 the Warden. 3 : Okay. 4 : So, it would just depends on 5 what the situation may be. So, if there was 6 instances where I would run things through the 7 chain, from the AW to the Warden, and there was 8 times that I would take direction directly from 9 the Warden. 10 : Okay. As far as, though, 11 in this instance, if, you know, being that 12 August 9th and August 10th, I believe that the 13 first person you contacted when you were -- 14 : Was 15 correct. And that was 16 because the other AW was out. Is that what you 17 were saying? 18 : My belief is that she was on 19 annual leave, which was stated 20 : Okay. 21 : -- that we had closed out on 22 that Friday, that she would be starting annual 23 leave. 24 : Okay. But the other AW 25 was, in fact, your Supervisor at that time? EFTA00126660  15 1 : Yes. 2 : Okay. Which you just 3 said was - you went with 4 because she was on? 5 : That's right. 6 : Okay. Have you since 7 learned anything about, like, was that not 8 correct? 9 : Well, what I realized is 10 that, once the incident had occurred, AW 11 responded to the institution, at which time her 12 annual leave, I believe she cancelled her 13 annual leave, and she assumed her position as 14 the AW over Custody. 15 : All right. How do you 16 spell her last name? 17 18 : Yes. 19 : A-D-G-E. 20 : Perfect. Thank you. All 21 right. So, is it correct that you were 22 interviewed by Agents of the FBI and the DOJ 23 OIG back when this instance occurred in August 24 of 2019? 25 : That is correct. EFTA00126661  16 1 : Great. I'm just going to 2 go over the report that was written in response 3 to their conversations with you. 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : We want to just go over 6 for accuracy, as well as to fill in some gaps 7 that we've found, that we just need some 8 clarification on. 9 : Absolutely. 10 : So, I'm just going to 11 read it. And you stop me if there is anything 12 that you find that is inaccurate. 13 : Correct. 14 : All right. So, " 15 began his career with the BOP in Florence, 16 Colorado in 2005." 17 : Correct. 18 : "In 2014, he was 19 transferred to the Metropolitan Detention 20 Center, MDC, in Brooklyn, to Captain at MCC, 21 his current position, where he over -". Or 22 sorry. 23 : Yeah. There's a lot missing 24 in between there. 25 : Yeah, yeah. EFTA00126662  17 1 : Yeah. Right. 2 : So, it says, "In 3 Brooklyn." I missed this line. It says, 4 "Where he was made Deputy Captain in 2015. In 5 2018, was promoted to Captain at MCC, 6 his current position, where he oversees 7 security for the entire building." 8 : Well, yeah. There was a 9 little bit missing there because, yeah, I 10 entered on duty, and I started my career in 11 Florence. However, I left Florence in 2009. 12 And that's when I went to Pollock. FCC 13 Pollock. 14 : Okay. 15 : And then, from FCC Pollock, 16 from 2009, I was there to 2014. And then, from 17 '14, I left Pollock to go to MDC Brooklyn. And 18 then, in '18, that's when I assumed duties at 19 MCC. 20 : Okay. So, they have - 21 yes - so, I guess you were transferred to the 22 MDC in Brooklyn, 2014, and in 2015 was when you 23 were promoted to Deputy Captain? 24 : That is correct. 25 : Okay. It says, EFTA00126663  18 1 directly supervises approximately 13 2 Lieutenants." Does that compromise of all the 3 Lieutenants? This was at the time. Was that 4 all the Lieutenants at the MCC? 5 : Correct. 6 : Okay. "And it has 7 approximately 125 to 135 line 8 staff/Correctional Officers under his purview." 9 Mm-hmm. Yes. Well, you 10 know, when they say that, what they understand 11 is, is that, under Correctional Services, that 12 was probably the amount of staff that was - 13 again - in Correctional Services, as 14 subordinate staff. However, my direct 15 supervision would have been over just the 13 16 Lieutenants. 17 : Okay. There are 13 - oh, 18 13 Lieutenants. Right. I thought you were 19 saying GS-13. Gotcha. also sits on 20 the Institution's Executive Staff, which also 21 includes the Warden. primary duty is 22 to ensure that security protocols are met by 23 his Lieutenants and sub-staff, and that policy 24 guidelines are being followed, as set forth by 25 the BOP." EFTA00126664  19 1 : Correct. 2 : "Among others, is 3 responsible for the following: Special Housing 4 Unit Lieutenant, Lieutenant ." Is that 5 correct? 6 : Correct. 7 : "As an Administrative 8 Lieutenant, responsible for maintaining 9 paperwork, et cetera." So, when you say an 10 Administrative Lieutenant here, are you saying 11 whoever was Acting in the Administrative 12 Lieutenant -- 13 : Capacity? 14 -- position? 15 : No, I wasn't. Basically, 16 Administrative duties. The Administrative 17 duties falls under the appointed SHU 18 Lieutenant. The SHU Lieutenant, the appointed 19 SHU Lieutenant has certain duties that have to 20 be done daily, within the unit. Not just the 21 supervision of the line staff that work the 22 unit, but also over all on running of the Unit. 23 Meaning, that ensuring that all paperwork is 24 done. 25 : Okay. EFTA00126665  20 1 : All security protocols are 2 followed. To ensure that inmates - or run 3 rosters - to ensure that inmates are placed in 4 the correct cells, or in the proper cells. To 5 ensure that they're supposed to audit said 6 rosters, to ensure they have proper 7 accountability of the inmates in the unit. 8 : So, I guess what I was 9 getting at is, like, how the SHU Lieutenant was 10 . Was there a specific person that was the 11 Administrative Lieutenant? 12 : Yes. The Administrative 13 Lieutenant at that time was 14 : And do you happen to know 15 how to spell that last name? 16 : It's 17 : Thank you, sir. "An SIS 18 Lieutenant responsible for paperwork." And who 19 was that? 20 : Which was the Lieutenant 21 (Phonetic Sp. *00:17:10). 22 : And common 23 spelling? 24 : Yes. 25 : Okay. "And Operations In EFTA00126666  21 1 Activities Lieutenants". 2 : Which are on the day of the 3 incident? 4 : Yeah. And would you like 5 to see the duty roster for August 9th and 6 August 10th? 7 : Hmm-mm. 8 : No? Okay. Do you know 9 who it was? 10 : So, I believe the morning 11 watch Lieutenant, when that incident occurred, 12 was Lieutenant - what is her damn name? - I 13 just said her name. 14 : I can show you this. 15 : Yeah. 16 : So, I'm showing you a 17 duty Agent roster from - or daily assignment 18 roster - from Friday, August 9, 2019, as well 19 as one from Saturday, August 10 20 : Right. 21 -- 2019. 22 : Right. 23 : And you can keep them in 24 front of you for the -- 25 : Okay. EFTA00126667  22 1 : -- for the interview, 2 just so you can - we're going to talk about 3 people - so you can reference the two. 4 : Right. All right. So, it 5 appears here, it would have been 6 would have been the 7 Operations Lieutenant on Saturday, August 10, 8 2019. 9 : And is it 10 -: 11 : Yeah. 12 Perfect. And what times did she work 13 from? 14 : At that time, the shift they 15 were working a different schedule. The 16 schedule was, I believe it was 10:00 to 0600. 17 : Okay. So, 10:00 p.m. on 18 August 9th to 0600 on August 10th. 19 : That is correct. 20 : And then, I'm assuming 21 there was another Administrative Lieutenant at 22 the, you know, when Epstein was discovered, and 23 I think that was a little after 6:00 a.m. 24 Correct? 25 : That is - yeah - that was the EFTA00126668  23 1 - actually - the Operations Lieutenant, which 2 was Lieutenant . He informed me - 3 or I guess he became aware of the incident, I 4 believe, at 6:30 that morning. 5 : Okay. And so, I already 6 asked the Operations Lieutenant. It says, "The 7 Operations Lieutenant and the Activities 8 Lieutenant are responsible for day to day 9 operations and maintaining order for three 10 shifts. And an Emergency Preparedness 11 Lieutenant. A Collateral Duty Responsibility 12 in the event of an emergency incident, such as 13 fires, bomb threats, et cetera." So, is there 14 a - during these instances - was there an 15 Emergency Preparedness Lieutenant? 16 : Yes. 17 : Who was that? 18 : I believe it was Lieutenant 19 20 : Lieutenant ? Okay. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : Was Lieutenant off 23 that day, though? 24 : Lieutenant was, I 25 believe, at that time, his schedule, the SHU EFTA00126669  24 1 Lieutenants were not working on the weekends. 2 : Okay. 3 : They worked Monday through 4 Friday. I believe it was 7:30 to 4:00. 5 : Okay. 6 : So, Lieutenant was on 7 military - he was on leave. He had military 8 leave because he had his monthly drill, monthly 9 drill 10 : Okay. 11 that he would attend. 12 : Do you know if he was on 13 leave both on August 9th and August 10th? Or 14 August 10th, you said he wouldn't have worked. 15 But was on the 9th? 16 : Let me see here. 17 : And you can just say, was 18 he on the schedule? 19 : Yeah. So, I mean, right 20 here, I'm looking at the roster for Friday, 21 August 9th. And I believe that the SHU 22 Lieutenant post was left un-assigned for that 23 Friday. 24 : All right. So, that 25 would just lead us to believe he was not there. EFTA00126670  25 1 Correct? 2 : That is correct. He was not 3 there, no. 4 • Great. And would his 5 position have been, like, you know, was there 6 someone that's placed in the Acting role when 7 he's gone, or is -? 8 : Normally, due to our staffing 9 at MCC, at that point, or at that time, we 10 tried to ensure that, you know, looking over 11 the roster, to try to ensure that someone was 12 within there, the supervising unit. But again, 13 due to the shortage of Lieutenants at that 14 time, I had to - as monitoring, or looking at 15 the roster - I would try to place areas of 16 importance, so Operations Lieutenant, ensured 17 that the Activities Lieutenants was filled. 18 And at that time, that particular day, he 19 wasn't on the roster, or that post was left un- 20 assigned. 21 : And that post, like you 22 said, isn't assigned on the weekends. 23 : No. 24 : So, Saturday. Great. 25 : No, it's not. EFTA00126671  26 Al 1 : All right. 2 advised that his staff provide special 3 considerations for high-profile inmates, if 4 deemed appropriate, and designated as such. In 5 order to ensure an inmate is providing with 6 proper care, the facility evaluates the inmate 7 using several measures, including mental, 8 physical, medical, psychological, and sexual 9 assault victim, or predator assessments. Since 10 different inmates are admitted with different 11 criteria, appropriate housing varies." 12 : Correct. NI 13 : All right. 14 interacted with inmate Jeffrey Epstein on 15 approximately three occasions at MCC. All of 16 which Epstein maintained a pleasant demeanor." 17 : Correct. 18 : "During the first 19 instance, Epstein asked who he was, and 20 responded by introducing himself, and 21 explaining his position at the jail. During 22 another instance, explained to Epstein 23 the policy regarding meals during Attorney 24 sessions, and made certain Epstein was 25 accommodated with water, visits to the EFTA00126672  27 1 restroom, et cetera." So, did he receive - and 2 I know, it's my understanding that he was, most 3 days, in with his Attorneys? 4 : Yes. So, most days, from the 5 time that the Attorney visitation would open, 6 inmate Epstein was in that area, primarily, 7 until it closed. 8 : All right. And that's 9 where it says, "Epstein spent most of the day 10 with his Defense Counsel, and was brought down 11 as soon as the Attorney visit opened." So, 12 would that be, like, Monday through Friday, or 13 Monday -- 14 : No. That's -- 15 : -- that's seven days a 16 week? 17 : -- that's seven days a week. 18 : All right. So, was it 19 almost every day? 20 : Every day. 21 : Okay. And was his food 22 brought to him there, then? 23 : No. 24 : Okay. How would he 25 obtain food? EFTA00126673  28 1 : Now, as far as food, I know - 2 and, like I said, it's been a while - normally, 3 inmates do not eat while they're in visitation. 4 : Okay. 5 : They're provided water. 6 They're provided to go to the bathroom. The 7 inmate, you know, is afforded the meal. 8 However, I believe that he was offered meals 9 from the vending machine. I'm not sure. 10 : Okay. 11 : I can't remember as far as 12 because I didn't remember there was an issue 13 with that, and I know we tried to accommodate, 14 or to address it. I just can't remember 15 : Sure. 16 what was done. 17 : Would the Attorneys be 18 allowed to bring him in food? 19 : No. No, no, no, no, no. 20 : No? 21 : No. 22 : Okay. 23 : No. No. No. No. Outside 24 food would not have been allowed. 25 : Okay. EFTA00126674  29 1 : So, I can't tell you if he 2 was actually getting a tray, during that time, 3 I can't remember. But I do remember, there 4 were conversations that - and I know we did 5 something in order to ensure that the inmate 6 was provided some type of meal. Or whatever. 7 I can't remember. 8 : Sure. All right. That's 9 fine. As far as the, it mentions two visits. 10 Do you remember anything about the third visit 11 that you made with Epstein? 12 : The third one. So, that 13 night, on - that would be Friday, August 9th of 14 2019, I believe I had worked that day close to 15 8:00. It was about 8:00 or so. 16 : 8:00 p.m. on August 9? 17 : 8:00 p.m. 18 : Okay. 19 : Correct. So, I was actually 20 on my way, and exited, you know, went and 21 talked to the Operations and Activities 22 Lieutenants. You know, let them know I was 23 leaving for the day. And when I reached the 24 elevator on the third floor, inmate Epstein was 25 being escorted out of Attorney visit by his EFTA00126675  30 1 Unit Manager. 2 : Okay. And who was that? 3 : Which that was, I believe, 4 (Phonetic Sp. *00:25:26) 5 : Right. 6 : At which time, I, you know, I 7 said, hello, how you doing, Mr. Epstein? And he 8 was, like, okay. So, he had asked me, and he 9 said, Captain, is it okay if I get a telephone 10 call? Now, mind you, we had already discussed 11 that when the inmate - we would reasonably 12 attempt to always facilitate a phone call for 13 the inmate, especially while him being housed 14 in the Special Housing Unit. So, I said to the 15 Unit Manager, , I said, 16 are you going to SHU? He said, yeah. I said, 17 well, are you going to be able to monitor the 18 call with the inmate? And he was, like, yeah, I 19 got no problem with that. I said, well, I 20 don't have a problem. Just make sure that you 21 follow the protocols, and the protocols is, is 22 when that inmate is allowed to use the phone, 23 it has to be monitored by staff, and the 24 number, and who they're talking to has to be 25 placed in a log. EFTA00126676  31 1 : Okay. 2 : So, I said, make sure that 3 takes place. I'm good with it. So, that's 4 when I got in the elevator, and I exited the 5 institution. 6 : All right. So, this 7 conversation happened with , in front of 8 Mr. Epstein? 9 : Yes, it did. 10 : Okay. And that's the 11 point where - okay, so, you did authorize that 12 call to be made, from the SHU? 13 : Yes. 14 : Was there a certain line 15 that they should have used? 16 : Yes. It's a secure line. 17 You have two lines. You know, you can plug it 18 into the outgoing, and then, it's the jack 19 that's just for inside of the institution 20 calls. Or you can put it into the other jack, 21 which allows those calls to be outgoing. 22 : Would that be called a 23 legal line? 24 : Yeah. It would be just an 25 out. This would be a out, out. EFTA00126677  32 1 : Okay. 2 : Out line. 3 : Sure. 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : And they're not recorded 6 -- 7 : Right. 8 : -- and that's why you 9 said make sure that it's -- 10 Yes. 11 : -- and did you -- 12 : Correct. 13 -- did you tell him, at 14 all, to document what was -? 15 : Yes. I told him to ensure 16 that he is present, that - the protocol is, 17 because I asked him, I said, look, I said, make 18 sure that you're present at the phone call. I 19 said, make sure that it's logged. And when you 20 dial the numbers, the number you have to, like, 21 stay on the line and said, he says, well, I 22 want to call my Attorney. Who was your 23 Attorney? So and so, and so and so. Okay. 24 When they answer the phone, I said, this is 25 MCC, my name is so and so. I have a call for EFTA00126678  33 1 Jeffrey Epstein. What is your name? And what 2 is your title? So, we can log it. 3 : Okay. 4 : And the time that it's 5 logged. And then, you give the phone to the 6 inmate, and then you sit there while they're on 7 the phone. 8 : And do you know if that 9 was done? 10 : Again, I don't know. 11 : You don't know? 12 : I just ensured. That's it. 13 If you - like I said, that's why I asked him, I 14 said, are you going to SHU? And are you going 15 to be able to monitor phone calls? 16 : But you don't know if 17 : He didn't say yes. 18 : -- he wrote up anything? 19 : I don't know what he did. 20 : Okay. 21 : I just ensured that I told 22 him. 23 : Sure. 24 : What needed to be done. 25 : And what would typically EFTA00126679  34 1 happen with that log, then? After he logged it. 2 : That phone call? 3 : Sure. 4 : Or that log? 5 : Like, after he documented 6 it. 7 : It would be maintained, just 8 in a log. 9 : Okay. 10 : It wouldn't be brought for 11 anyone's review. You know? It would just be, 12 hey, did, hey, did Epstein get a call? Yeah. I 13 could tell you. So, I can pull the book. And 14 then, I can tell you, and look, when he was 15 given a call. 16 : So, it goes into a 17 specific Epstein file? 18 : Yeah. No. It wouldn't. It 19 doesn't go in a file. It goes into a book. It 20 goes into a book for monitored calls, for all 21 the inmates, and legal calls. 22 : For all inmates. So, not 23 just Epstein. It would be all -- 24 : That is correct. 25 -- inmates? Okay. EFTA00126680  35 1 : It would be a green logbook. 2 You know, and it would have the name of the 3 inmate, and who they called, the number, the 4 time. I don't know if the duration is on 5 there. But it will the person who also 6 monitored the call. So, you know, all that 7 information. But it wasn't something, like, a 8 form that was filled out, and then it was 9 placed in the inmate's file. 10 : Sure. 11 : Or central file. 12 : Sure. 13 No. It wasn't like that. 14 : And do you know if that 15 log in the book was filled out? 16 : I don't know. 17 : You don't know. Okay. 18 When you met with Epstein on that night, how 19 was his demeanor? 20 : It was fine. He was 21 cheerful. 22 : He was cheerful. 23 : You know, he didn't look 24 disheveled. He felt - because I asked him, I 25 said, how you doing? You all right? - he said, EFTA00126681  36 1 man, I'm good. Everything is fine. And I 2 said, did you have a good visit? And he said, 3 yeah. Everything is fine, Cap. I said, all 4 right, man. 5 Okay. 6 : You know? 7 No cause for concern? 8 : No, because every time we had 9 that interaction, it was always pleasant. It 10 was never negative. 11 Okay. It says, "- 12 was made aware of the possibility that Epstein 13 would be housed at MCC in advance of Epstein's 14 arrival. was not present when inmate 15 Epstein was admitted to the facility. Epstein 16 was thoroughly vetted to determine if he was 17 fit for general population, and was ultimately 18 placed in the Special Housing Unit. MCC places 19 inmates under three categories of close 20 supervision. One: dry cell for those at risk 21 for smuggling contraband. Two: psychological 22 observation. And three: suicide watch." 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 Is that all correct? 25 : Yes. At that time, yes. EFTA00126682  37 1 : Okay. So, who made the 2 decision to place him in the Special Housing 3 Unit, specifically, and why? 4 : Okay. So, basically, the 5 rationale for placement of the inmate in the 6 Special Housing Unit would have been a decision 7 ultimately made by the Warden. They would have 8 took the criteria of the inmate. They would 9 have been, like, okay, well, what's his risk? 10 You know, what would be the likelihood of him 11 being endangered if he would be placed in 12 general population? His culpability. Can he 13 cope while being inside of a general housing 14 unit? So, the determinations was made between 15 Medical, Health Services - oh, I'm sorry - 16 Health Services, Psychology, and the Warden. 17 : And who was the Warden at 18 that time? 19 : It was 20 : And do you know how to 21 spell that last name? 22 : It would be -- 23 : Apostrophe. 24 apostrophe, 25 : Thank you, sir. Are EFTA00126683  38 1 there any other secure housing units within the 2 MCC? 3 : There is only one secured 4 housing unit. That's the SHU. 5 : Okay. Not -- 6 : But however, we do have 7 -- Ten South (Phonetic 8 Sp. *00:32:04). 9 -- Ten South. 10 : Okay. 11 : And Ten South is for, I 12 believe those are for SAM inmates. And those 13 inmates are under a specialized monitoring, 14 which comes from, I believe it's from the 15 Attorney General, I believe. I can't remember 16 who's the person that's over it, but I believe 17 it was the Attorney General, or whoever, makes 18 the determinations for those SAMS inmates. 19 : Okay. And what is SAMS 20 stand for? 21 : I believe - I can't remember. 22 : Okay. But is it, like, 23 S-A-M-S? 24 : That is correct. 25 : Okay. Like, an acronym, EFTA00126684  39 1 though? 2 : It is an acronym. 3 ■ : Okay. And that is not 4 made by anyone at the MCC? That's made by the 5 Attorney General 6 : Yeah. 7 : -- is that -? Okay. 8 : That's going to be - yeah. 9 That's - yes. 10 : All right. Was there any 11 discussion of placing Epstein in one of those 12 units? 13 : No. 14 : Could he have been placed 15 in one of those units? 16 : I'm sure he could have. 17 : But I mean, by executive 18 staff, or would they had to have made a call to 19 the -? 20 : I believe they would have had 21 to make a special concessions for the inmate. 22 : Okay. 23 : They would have to, you know, 24 vet him, and someone would have to approve it, 25 I believe, outside of the executive staff at EFTA00126685  40 1 MCC. 2 : Okay. And then, that's 3 where I meant by, is, so the executive staff 4 wasn't able to -- 5 : I don't believe so. 6 : -- independently -? 7 : No. We were not. 8 : Okay. Were there many 9 inmates housed within Ten South at that time? 10 : No. I believe, at that time, 11 we may have had a total of four to five. Of 12 course, you know, we had the notorious Joaquin 13 Guzman up there. We also had the Apple Puff 14 (Phonetic Sp. *00:33:38) was up there. We also 15 had inmate - it starts with an S. I can't 16 remember his name. But basically, these are 17 inmates that have made crimes against the 18 United States, which it was deemed that those 19 inmates would be in that Special Management 20 Unit, and they couldn't, of course, go to the 21 general population. 22 : Was this, like, a 23 terrorist type of people? 24 : I would say some of them were 25 terrorists. You know, of course, you had EFTA00126686  41 1 Joaquin Guzman that was up there, the terrorist 2 king pin, drug king pin. He couldn't go on a 3 general population unit. 4 : Sure. 5 : He would go - normally, guys 6 like that would be in places where I come from, 7 before, you know, like Florence. 8 : Okay. 9 : He would be at the ADX 10 (Phonetic Sp. *00:34:19). Apopov (Phonetic Sp. 11 *00:34:21). I believe that - Apopov - I think 12 that was his name, Apopov or Sopopov (Phonetic 13 Sp. *00:34:25). These guys had made terrorist 14 threats against the United States, or there was 15 guys up there that had materials, or that was 16 found in cooperation with outside Agencies that 17 was trying to determent of (Indiscernible 18 *00:34:43), and cause harm to the United 19 States. These kind of guys was put in that 20 unit. 21 : Sure. 22 : Guys you wouldn't want in the 23 general population because -- 24 : Yeah. 25 : -- of their recruitment EFTA00126687  42 1 value, or their radical ability they could be 2 able to do - have recruitment value for, you 3 know, for other inmates in the general 4 population. You don't want those guys in 5 there. 6 : Yeah. 7 : But Jeffrey Epstein, you 8 know, he's a multi-billionaire. 9 : Sure. Now, as far as Ten 10 South. Is that one inmate per cell? 11 : Yes. 12 : And video monitored at 13 all times? 14 : Yes. 15 : Okay. So, it's like your 16 maximum security type? 17 : That would be the highest 18 security that an inmate at MCC would be placed 19 in. 20 : Okay. 21 : Yeah. Could be placed in. 22 Yeah. 23 : But the executive team 24 never discussed that? 25 : No. EFTA00126688  43 1 : Okay. advised 2 that Epstein preferred not to have a cell mate 3 and engaged in manipulative behavior to avoid 4 having one." What type of behavior did he -? 5 : I believe that Epstein and - 6 when he first came in - he was doing self- 7 manipulative behavior. You know, he was 8 showing pass