EFTA02710406.pdf

From: jeffrey E. <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2015 1:52 PM To: Noam Chomsky Subject: Re: Re: As Always everything written by me to you =A0should be seen alongside a smile and twinkle . expressing my enjoyment=C2 you engage in slippery definition=. . I suggested the gromov desciiption on pg 26, on his=view regarding the math since the 1960s? . If you can help me=understand then what you mean by" language "at least in our dial=gue. . I thought we had agreed to separate it from communicati=n. sound wave analysis. etc. why is the waggle dance a study o= a living system more than say written directions is a study of =A0humans. Im unclear. by marrs method i as=ume you mean Computation : like scaling down, when speakers of a given language va=iety have a choice between two or more denotatively equivalent forms of ex=ression, are there computational or mathematical principles (i.e. about th= goals that language can, often, or always is achieving) that predict why =peakers exhibit the gradient preferences that they do? Algorithmic: How does huma= language generally, a specific language, or a specific speaker achieve so=e of these abstract goals? Implementation and How might (and a=e) these algorithms and representations be implemented in the brain? =/span> </=pan> not sure=any new insights greater than your UG was achieved after many attemp=s . I will now read recursive function work. On Tue, Jun 9, =015 at 9:28 AM, Noam Chomsky < <mailto > wrote: Sorry, but I don't follow. =AO Insect navigation is a study of a living system, and the work that I =80 m familiar with studies it as a computational system. If =here's a better way of analyzing it, well and good: the scientists working on the=topic would be glad to see it. Outside observers like me too.=u> At another level of analysis, insect =avigation is a sensory-motor process in physical space. There's no semantic error tha= I'm aware of. Studying systems at various levels of abstrac=ion has been standard science for centuries. A particular framework that's been widely adopted in the cognitive sciences is Marr =99s, but other ways of looking at it are of course possible.=/span> I looked at Gromov's paper, b=t didn't read it carefully. He uses set theory freely throug=out, and I don't see anything that bears on matrices as mathematic=l objects or on the use of recursive function theory for computational syste=s like EFTA_R1_02121581 EFTA02710406 language where it is appropriate. Maybe, as he suggests, some=results would follow from studying these topics in the framework he develo=s, but as always, that has to be shown. For example, Eilenberg's category-theoretic reanalysis of wo=k on finite automata that I and others had done, including very good and r=spected mathematician's like Schutzenberger, apparently had some m=thematical interest (so I am told), but no results were suggested that had any implications for the empirical objects that origina=ly motivated the mathematical studies. That's not unusual in=math and the physical sciences. From: jeffrey E. [mailto:[email protected]) Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2015 7:10 AM To: Noam Chomsky Subject: Re: Re: thats cheating . . Is the study of how it danc=s really a study of the living systen? or is merely the sensor= motor display in phyiscal space. if you admit it being the la=ter , my dismal knowledge of language requires the expert to suggest , was the mistake a "semantic error' ? =AO haha.. 2. the bee takes the space time vector and using pol=arization and other inputs, to merely express in in other domains its resu=t. a phenomenological trivial event. wouldnt pointing and say=ng" over there". be as trivial . if you do point and speak, =sn't that a merging of the" two" languages . neither concate=ation or distance . ?? I attach a gromov paper. his apolo=y to the reader on page 26 , i think elegantly explains some of the =ew difficulties. On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 12:49 AM, Noam Chomsky < <mailto »= wrote: It's quite true that computer=modelling of living systems is often misused, but it's often used =uite effectively. In the case of language, what has been used effectively=is the theory of computability-recursive function theory, which provides b=sic and appropriate tools. It's also been used effectively t= study insect navigation and much else. 2 EFTA_R1_02121582 EFTA02710407  I wonder if the nuzanmirre is still a=ound. From: jeffrey E. [mailto:jeevacation@gmailcom] Sent: Monday, June 08, 2015 10:57 PM To: Noam Chomsky Subject: Re: Re: This all needs exposition. sorry. =C2 the computer model for living systems has not led to man= conherent theories. it does gets misued all the time however,=C2 . the simplest of questions, why does a cell have a symmetrical shape. extremely c=mplex computations were attempted . did the lipids attract. ? if so =ith what force. ? did the area need to enclose the greatest volume.=C2 . we now know that it is nothing more than the most probable shape , given the statistical ensemble available to it. noth=ng more. . quantum would attempt to explain it by suggesting the mol=ucules took every shape they could and decided on the spherical one. . =AO I smile everytime I think of your perception that there was a magazine called nuzanmirrer. On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 10:17 PM, Noam Chomsky < <mailto »= wrote: It's absolutely true that for=study of choice of action, the computer model is not helpful at all. That's something I've been arguing for many decades, in op=osition to most physicists these days, who claim that choice of action red=ces to determinacy and randomness (i.e., programmable). I think it m=y have come up in the Krauss discussion. I also discussed it again in my Dewey lectures in the J. of Philosophy in December 2013. I don't frankly see how the S=hrodinger analogy helps in this case. To clarify, the people I mentioned weren't students working on comp=ters. Rather, professional mathematicians and physicists. The =wo who have been attending seminars for many years, and have published in =reas very closely related to my work, are a mathematician and quantum physicist at Northeastern. Noam From: jeffrey E. [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, June 08, 2015 9:57 PM To: Noam Chomsky Subject: Re: 3 EFTA_R1_02121583 EFTA02710408  brain as a computer? as silly as artificial in=elligence., The simple example I teach re quantum is whe= i try to decide should i order fish or meat. for the moment before I order ( as you an I agree ms before i even am concious of ordering. ) both choices like schroedingers cat exist as a superpostioned wave func=ion that collapses and a choice is made. . yes i a= taking liberties. . the students you referred to you suggest are working on computers, not very odd that they might see you I lan=uage conforming to their pre perceptions On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 9:41 PM, Noam Chomsky <I >=wrote: I have a VERY thick skin, and love to=hear criticism. One of the best ways to learn. And I'v= often given up closely held beliefs on the basis of persuasive argumentation. =AO But in this case, I just don't see the arguments.=u> It's true that the mathematic= lacks rigor, but that's for the same reason that publications in =rofessional math journals lack rigor. The steps that are not spelled out are str=ightforward enough so that they can be easily filled in. I don =99t know of any problems about set theory, apart from the classic ones. =AO Some version of set theory is presupposed in every branch of math, including category theory. As for the brain as a com=uter, I'm not sure what you see as the problem. The papers l=sent you do assume that I-language is a computational system, with the pro=erties mentioned, easily formalized. I don't know of any coherent alternative. Actually, very good professional mathem=ticians and physicists, one working primarily on quantum computers, have a=tended my regular seminars for years, but I've never heard a suggestion as to how mathematical ideas used in quantum theory would be relevant to systems of the kind we're considering.=C2 The "displacement conjecture" is, in fact, an immedi=te consequence of what would be the best possible theory if it's t=ue: SMT, in particular, the assumption that the basic combinatorial operation is the simplest one possible. Merge is simply set-formatio=, presupposed in all of mathematics. I agree that it's na =AFve, if by that you mean very simple, arguably optimally so. But ha=n't that been the pretty explicit goal of science, at least since Galileo, quantum theory included? I'd like to hear the=objections, and hope to learn from them. Noam From: jeffrey E. [mailto:[email protected] Sent: Monday, June 08, 2015 3:07 PM To: Noam Chomsky Subject: I will take your word that you share my thick skin f=r criticism and share a strange pleasure in learning, even if it mea=s having to accept that some formerly closely held beliefs might need strong correction. I have no particular knowl=dge re politics or history, so I will never offer an opinion. =owever re mathematics and or money, I feel on strong ground. =hat being said, thought puzzles in the paper are brilliant and=insightful. the mathematical descriptions lack rigor , and the metaphors suffer =rom the common science limitation of trying to describe things using the e=gineering metaphors or the tools of the moment.ex. The =uman or its brain as a computer ., set theory . It was popular in the early 20th as you know to describe the body as an elect=ic machine.. the mathematics used today in quantum show =ore promise , as it attempts to describe things that appear counter 4 EFTA_R1_02121584 EFTA02710409 intuit=ve. or difficult to comprehend , ( your displacement conjecture) your simple X and Y, Merge, is quit= naive and unfortunately incorrect. 2. from the paper you sent. ; a much more elegant way of conveying =AO what i had failed to do re sentences and money European structuralism commonly adopted the Saussurean conception of langua=e ( MONEY) (in the relevant sense) =s a social entity; as Saussure put it, a storehouse of word images ( values ) in the brains of a collectivity o= individuals founded on a "sort of contract." please no=e The information contained in this communication is confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may constitute inside information, and is intended only for the use of the addressee. It is the property of JEE Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return e-mail or by e-mail to [email protected] <[email protected]> , and destroy this communication and all copies thereof, including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved please no=e The information contained in this communication is confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may constitute inside information, and is intended only for the use of the addressee. It is the property of JEE Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return e-mail or by e-mail to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> , and destroy this communication and all copies thereof, including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved 5 EFTA_R1_02121585 EFTA02710410  please no=e The information contained in this communication is confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may constitute inside information, and is intended only for the use of the addressee. It is the property of JEE Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return e-mail or by e-mail to [email protected] <[email protected]> , and destroy this communication and all copies thereof, including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved please no=e The information contained in this communication is confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may constitute inside information, and is intended only for the use of the addressee. It is the property of JEE Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return e-mail or by e-mail to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> , and destroy this communication and all copies thereof, including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved =C2 please note The information contained in this communication =s confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may constitute in=ide information, and is intended only for the use of the addressee. It =s the property of JEE Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of thi= communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited and may be=unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please noti=y us immediately by return e-mail or by e-mail to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> , and des=roy this communication and all copies thereof, including all attachment=. copyright -all rights reserved 6 EFTA_R1_02121586 EFTA02710411