EFTA00116871.pdf

1 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL SEPTEMBER 1, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 EFTA00116871  2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE EFTA00116872  3 1 : My name is 2 and I am a Senior Special Agent with 3 the Department of Justice Office of the 4 Inspector General New York Field Office. And 5 these are my credentials. This interview with 6 Federal Bureau of Prisons Lieutenant 7 is being conducted as part of an 8 official U.S. Department of Justice Office of 9 the Inspector General investigation. Today's 10 date is September 1, 2021 and the time is 12:22 11 p.m. This interview is being conducted at the 12 Metropolitan Correctional Center located in New 13 York, New York. Also present is DOJ OIG 14 Special Agent This interview 15 will be recorded by me, SSA 16 Could everyone please identify themselves for 17 the record and spell your last name. To start, 18 again, I am DOJ OIG Senior Special Agent 19 20 : This is DOJ OIG Special Agent 21 . And these are my 22 credentials. 23 : And then can you say your 24 last name, Ma'am? 25 EFTA00116873  4 1 2 : Thank you. This is an 3 official DOJ OIG investigation into the death 4 of inmate Jeffrey Epstein and the surrounding 5 circumstances and you're being asked to 6 voluntarily provide answers to our questions. 7 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with 8 the DOJ OIG? 9 : Yes. 10 : Thank you. So we have 11 the Warnings and Assurances to Employee 12 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary 13 Basis. Sorry. You are being asked to provide 14 information as part of an investigation being 15 conducted by the Office of the Inspector 16 General. This investigation is being conducted 17 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978 18 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 19 performance failure and security failure. This 20 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do 21 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary 22 action will be taken against you if you choose 23 not to answer questions. Any statement you 24 furnish may be used as evidence in any future 25 criminal proceeding or agency disciplinary EFTA00116874  5 1 proceeding or both. And there's a waiver 2 section. It says, I understand the Warnings 3 and Assurances stated above and I am willing to 4 make a statement and answer questions. No 5 promises or threats have been made to me and no 6 pressure or coercion of any kind has been used 7 against me. This is the form if you want to 8 take a look and read it. If you agree, there's 9 a place where you can sign for employee 10 signature. 11 : You want employee you 12 said? 13 : Yeah, the employee 14 signature. 15 : Print your name below that. 16 : Thank you very much for 17 signing and printing your name. I appreciate 18 that. I'm going to put in the date. Again it 19 is September 1, 2021 and the time is now 12:25 20 p.m. And I am signing as the OIG Special Agent 21 and printing my name. 22 : This is Special Agent 23 I'm signing as a witness. 24 : And you just fill out the 25 rest and say place for MCC. Yeah. All right. EFTA00116875  6 1 And did you understand the form that you were 2 just provided? 3 : Yes. 4 : All right. Great. Thank 5 you. Before starting the interview, I'd like 6 to place you under oath. Lieutenant 7 , can you please raise your right hand. 8 Do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but 9 the truth during this interview? 10 : Yes. 11 : Thank you. Okay. What is 12 your current position with the BOP? 13 : I'm a Lieutenant. 14 : Okay. Were you 15 previously interviewed on this investigation on 16 August 14, 2019, and again by myself and 17 Special Agent on June 14, 2021. 18 : I don't remember the 19 dates, but I have been previously interviewed. 20 : Okay. Great. Thank you. 21 And earlier this summer by the two of us, 22 correct? 23 : Yes. 24 : Great. When reviewing 25 your transcript from June 14, 2021, some of EFTA00116876  7 1 your answers were a little unclear and we are 2 here today in hope that we can clear up some of 3 those answers. Is it correct that you worked 4 on August 10th, morning watch shift, at the MCC 5 starting on August 9, 2019 at 10:00 p.m. 6 through August 10, 2019 when you were relieved 7 by oncoming lieutenant at approximately 5:30 8 a.m.? Here's the Friday, August 9th and 9 Saturday August 10th are the daily assignment 10 rosters. And this is - the dates that we're 11 talking about is the day before Epstein was 12 discovered and the day Epstein was discovered. 13 So the Friday and Saturday. 14 : According to the 15 roster, I worked the morning watch shift on 16 Friday August 9th and Saturday August 10th. 17 : And at that time, is it 18 correct that the morning watch shift actually 19 started the night two hours prior to what the 20 schedule says. You would actually have started 21 at 10:00 p.m. instead of midnight. 22 : Those were the times 23 that we relieved each other. Yes. 24 : Okay. So in this case, 25 so it's specifically talking about your August EFTA00116877  8 1 10th shift. Would have you started on August 2 9th at 10:00 p.m. and that shift would have 3 ended a little before 6:00 a.m. on August 10th? 4 : Yes. It just depends 5 on what time we're relieved. 6 : Right. 7 : Yeah. 8 : Okay. Now you mentioned 9 to us, but is it true on August 10, 2019, you 10 stayed later than 5:30 a.m.? 11 : Yes. 12 : Okay. Do you recall when 13 you left the MCC on August 10, 2019? 14 : No, I don't. 15 : Okay. So in your 16 interview in June 2021, you noted that you had 17 heard about Epstein's medical emergency around 18 7:00 a.m. and went up to help with feeding. Do 19 you recall what you would have been doing from 20 approximately 5:30 a.m. until 7:00 a.m.? 21 : Yeah, I was finishing 22 up my paperwork. 23 : Paperwork? 24 : Yes. 25 : Okay. EFTA00116878  9 1 : Yep, from the 2 previous shift, yes. 3 : Okay. 4 : I was finishing up 5 paperwork. 6 : And what kind of 7 paperwork do you finish up before you leave? 8 : We have various 9 paperwork. I don't - I can't remember that 10 night if I had had an incident and was still 11 working on 583 packets. But we had like a 12 report that we had to do every night. I still 13 -. I don't remember exactly what I was doing, 14 but I don't know if I was doing the -. I 15 forgot what it's called now. But it's a - like 16 a report that we do of what happens throughout 17 the day -. 18 : The lieutenant log? 19 : That's the count and 20 stuff like that included. It's like a little 21 daily news type thing report. 22 : Is that the lieutenant 23 log? 24 : It's not the 25 lieutenant's log. But I could have been making EFTA00116879  10 1 entries into the lieutenant's log as well. 2 : The daily activity 3 report? 4 : The daily activity 5 report. Yes. 6 : Okay. So it's the daily 7 activity report that - at least with ours, we 8 always get it - that goes along with the 9 lieutenant log. 10 : Yeah, the daily 11 activity report, the log. I might have been 12 still doing changes in the roster at the last 13 minute. Things to that effect. 14 : Okay. And do you recall 15 what time you were in the SHU helping with 16 feeding? Was this after Epstein's emergency? 17 : It was after. 18 : Right. Do you recall for 19 approximately for how long? You said you went 20 up there around 7:00 a.m. to help with the 21 feeding. Do you recall how long you were 22 there? 23 : I'm not sure how long 24 I was up there because there were no other 25 staff members there. And as other staff EFTA00116880  11 1 members came, it was us - I said I'm going to 2 go because they had additional staff. The only 3 reason why I even stayed up there feeding was 4 to ensure everything was - the feeding was 5 taken care of. Because they didn't have any 6 additional staff up there. 7 : Okay. 8 : And I don't know what 9 time additional staff came. I wasn't even 10 really looking at the clock that day. Someone 11 needed to be up there. So I just stayed until 12 they got additional staff up there. 13 : Do you remember who was 14 there with you when you were feeding? 15 : I think was 16 the only person that was there at the time. 17 : Was Noel there as well? 18 : Noel was there. But 19 Noel wasn't feeding. 20 : Okay. 21 was feeding 22 because I want to say it was just them two 23 there. 24 : Okay. 25 : So was EFTA00116881  12 1 downrange feeding by himself. So I went 2 downrange and assisted him with feeding. 3 : You say the two of you 4 were feeding together? 5 : Me and 6 : Uh-huh. 7 : Yes, I believe it was 8 9 : Okay. So it wasn't that 10 you fed on one range and he fed on another? 11 You were actually feeding together when you 12 were there? 13 : No, we was feeing 14 together because there's only - we only got the 15 two sets of keys. 16 : Okay. 17 : So yeah, we was just 18 - we was on the same range. 19 : Okay. And do you recall 20 what time you left the SHU though? When you 21 were getting relieved? 22 : I don't recall. I 23 don't know what time it was. 24 : Would have it been right 25 after feeding? Or do you remember if you EFTA00116882  13 1 stayed there that long? 2 : I don't think it was 3 -. It wasn't right after. It wasn't 4 immediately after feeding because like I said, 5 there was nobody there. So and then Noel 6 eventually - she eventually left. I think by 7 the time we were finishing up feedings there at 8 some point I think she left. And a couple of 9 staff came. And then some of them ended up 10 having other things to do because we were so 11 shorthanded. 12 : Sure. 13 : During that time that 14 there was just no body. We didn't' have any 15 bodies. 16 : Sure. Do you remember 17 though, putting yourself back into that day, do 18 you remember what you would have done after the 19 feeding? 20 : I don't remember what 21 I did. If I wasn't finished with what I was 22 doing, I finished that up and I'm sure I went 23 home. 24 : No-no-no. I'm sorry. 25 When you were in the SHU. Do you remember -? EFTA00116883  14 1 I'm talking specifically about the SHU right 2 now. After the feeding was done, you and 3 were done. Do you remember if you did 4 any other tasks or anything while you were in 5 the SHU? 6 : I don't remember if - 7 . I don't remember. I don't remember doing 8 anything else because we fed and then you go 9 the grace point where you're waiting to see - 10 waiting for the inmates to finish so you can 11 get the things from them. But no. No. 12 Nothing in particular comes to mind from like 13 that. 14 : Okay. 15 : You mentioned you would have 16 finished up whatever you were - that you didn't 17 get a chance to complete. What was it that 18 you're talking about? You said that after the 19 feeding, you would have finished up whatever 20 else that you couldn't get a chance to 21 complete. You would have finished up -. 22 : Right. Like if I had 23 - if there was work that I still needed - 24 paperwork that I still needed to get done or do 25 or something like that for my shift. I would EFTA00116884  15 1 have finished that up if that was still due. I 2 don't even know if I even -. I don't 3 don't know if I came and got my stuff and left 4 or if I finished doing the paperwork. I don't 5 know in what order I did that. 6 : Okay. So from our end, 7 we had to review like all the emails and stuff 8 you know for everybody. And see what was going 9 on especially with the daily activities - what 10 we just talked about - the daily activities 11 report is when the lieutenant's log. So this 12 is the email that you sent out. I guess this 13 is what you - maybe you were working on. The 14 daily activity report. 15 : Okay. 16 : As well as the 17 lieutenant's log that was attached. This was 18 sent out at 9:26 a.m. on August 10th. 19 : Okay. 20 : So do you believe that 21 may have been what you were working on? 22 : Like I said, like I 23 said previously, if I was - if I had additional 24 paperwork to do, it was the daily log and 25 probably my lieutenant log or something to that EFTA00116885  16 1 effect. I don't -. Because I can't remember 2 if I had a 583 packet that I was working on. 3 : Okay. And then what time 4 are these emails with the daily activity report 5 and lieutenant's log. What time are they 6 typically sent out in the mornings? 7 : Whenever we finish 8 them. I mean we try and have them done before 9 the end of our shift. But at that particular 10 time because we didn't have any bodies. And 11 everything took longer. There were times when 12 - sometimes you had things that you didn't 13 expect. Or rounds or something like that took 14 longer. Hiring overtime or something like that 15 took longer. That everything didn't get done. 16 : Okay. 17 : And plus, you know, 18 when you're making rounds -. We were so short 19 and officers were doing so many - officers were 20 being mandated every day during that time. And 21 they have been being mandated every day - five 22 days a week - for months by then. That the 23 officers, you know, they were so tired and 24 exhausted that you spent an additional amount 25 of time talking to them and making sure that EFTA00116886  17 1 they were okay. So everything just ran on. 2 : Okay. So the part - the 3 reason why we're asking is we have - we looked 4 at all the other lieutenant logs that were - 5 this is stapled - sorry. So here, we looked, 6 you know leading up to it. So here's the one 7 you sent from Tuesday, August 6th. It was sent 8 out at 5:16 a.m. And you sent one out of 9 Wednesday, August 7th at 5:03 a.m. You weren't 10 - we didn't' find Thursday's but then you sent 11 one out on Friday, August 9th at 5:11 a.m. So 12 this one is Saturday. This one was at 9:26 13 a.m. And then Sunday's was sent out at 6:15 14 a.m. And then Monday's August 12th, again at 15 6:30 a.m. So just does this help you recall 16 what could have possibly been happening? I 17 know you said you went up at 7:00 a.m. to help 18 with the feeding. So do you know what you 19 would have been doing up until that 7:00 a.m. 20 hour? Being that all these were sent out, you 21 know, anywhere from as early as 5:00 a.m. to as 22 late as, you know, 6:30, 6:30 something a.m. 23 : I'm sure I was still 24 working. 25 : Or 6:36 a.m. EFTA00116887  18 1 : Whatever I was doing, 2 it was pertaining to work. I wasn't sitting 3 here. When I got relieved, if all of my stuff 4 was done, I would have left the building. That 5 would have been no reason for me to be here. 6 : Sure. 7 : And I wouldn't' have 8 wanted to be here. 9 : Mm-hm. 10 : So I was working on 11 work that I needed to complete during that 12 time. 13 : So what other - other 14 than the activities log and lieutenant log, 15 what were the other things you said that you 16 would be doing? 17 : I mean I don't know 18 specifically what I would have been doing on 19 that day. Or I don't even recall everything 20 that happened during the course of that day. 21 You know to even sit here and try and -. 22 : Sure. 23 : Conjure up an answer 24 for you to tell you, you know. 25 : But typically, at that - EFTA00116888  19 1 around that time though, what would you 2 typically be working on aside from the daily 3 activity report and lieutenant's log? 4 : It would be - I would 5 be filling overtime. I would be -. There were 6 a number of things that I could have been 7 doing. I could have been talking to staff or 8 somebody on the phone about something that was 9 going on. It could have been anything. It 10 could have been anything. 11 : Okay. This is the daily 12 activities report and lieutenant's log from 13 August 10th and August 11th. So these are the 14 ones that we just discussed that were in those 15 emails. If you can flip to the actual 16 lieutenant's log. Would you during your shift 17 be reviewing the lieutenant's log and be 18 constantly filling it out as well as the, you 19 know, what happened prior to your shift? 20 : I don't -. I 21 wouldn't necessarily -. I have to look at what 22 occurred prior to my shift unless -. Usually 23 . When I did that, in order to fill this out 24 the daily activity report. In order to do 25 this, sometimes I would reference the EFTA00116889  20 1 lieutenant report if I didn't get a pass down 2 or something like that just to make sure that 3 the information that I felt should be included 4 in this should be documented. But as far as to 5 just look at the lieutenant's log prior to me 6 arriving for - if I wasn't looking for 7 something. Yeah. 8 : So the only time you 9 really reviewed the lieutenant's log is if like 10 you need to go back and look for things? 11 : If I was -. Yeah. 12 If I wanted to look at the information to see 13 if there was something that they documented 14 that they didn't tell me prior to them leaving 15 and shift change or something like that. 16 : And did you - would you 17 typically, if you're going back and reviewing 18 the lieutenant's logs from the previous shifts, 19 would you modify those as well? 20 : No. 21 : You don't ever do that? 22 : No. 23 : All right. So you 24 wouldn't have gone back and modified like a, 25 you know, August 9th that night watch or the EFTA00116890  21 1 day watch. 2 : If there was 3 something that occurred between 10:00 and 4 12:00, since the shift officially ended at 5 12:00. Like the count or something like that. 6 I would put that in. But that never - I don't 7 even remember when that would have occurred. I 8 mean that was rare if any that that would 9 occur. 10 : Now would you be 11 authorized though to make changes to the 12 lieutenant's logs for the shift -? 13 : That's not making 14 changes. That's adding stuff to it. 15 : No, I'm saying prior to. 16 So you came on at 10:00 p.m., so going to the 17 4:10 p.m. are you allowed to -? And I'm asking 18 this as a genuine question. Are you allowed to 19 make modifications or changes to the 20 lieutenant's logs prior to when you came on 21 board? 22 : That wouldn't be 23 considered a modification or a change. That 24 would be additional information that occurred 25 during that time to the log. EFTA00116891  22 1 : Okay. 2 : Say the count. 3 : Right. 4 : They - if the officer 5 - if the lieutenant wasn't there by the time 6 the 10:00 count cleared. You know. There were 7 times when I would go in and put the time that 8 was the count cleared or something to that 9 effect. 10 : Okay. What about 11 changing like the count numbers or things like 12 that? 13 : If something 14 happened. If an inmate left or something like 15 that - there was a reason why they need to be 16 changed in order for the information to be 17 accurate. Yeah. I mean if something like that 18 would have occurred. But like I said, there 19 was really -. I don't remember offhand this 20 late in - at this time - of an instance when I 21 would have to change that. 22 : Sure. So do you recall 23 when -? 24 : I would have to 25 change the count to cause that. EFTA00116892  23 1 : During your interview in 2 June of 2021, just a few months ago, you ha d 3 mentioned that you were the ones that caught an 4 - a discrepancy -. 5 : The inmate that was 6 in R&D. 7 : Correct. 8 : Mm-hm. 9 : So that kind of changed 10 the counts to everything. 11 : Right. 12 : So that's what I'm 13 talking about. So for instance, where I'm 14 pointing to on this like Friday, August 9, 15 2019, all these different count numbers. Would 16 have you then gone back and revised all these 17 count numbers? 18 : It depends on what it 19 effected. 20 : Okay. 21 : People as - I think 22 on the roster, the only count that is on there 23 is the institution count and Ten South count. 24 So unless something changed to those. But the 25 inmate that was in R&D wouldn't have changed EFTA00116893  24 1 the institution count. The count would have 2 remained the same. 3 : I'm sorry, can you say 4 that again? 5 : The count. The 6 inmate that was -. If you're referring to the 7 innate that was 8 : In R&D. 9 : -- in R&D. 10 : Correct. 11 : That wouldn't have 12 changed the institution count. The institution 13 count would still remain the same. 14 : The overall -. 15 : If the institution 16 count was 600, the changes that we have to make 17 to - make corrections to his assignment 18 wouldn't have changed -. 19 : Well it would have 20 changed with what I'm pointing to is the SHU 21 count. 22 : That is Ten South's 23 SHU count. Let me see. 24 : So the SHU count, where 25 it says 75 and then slash the 5 might be Ten EFTA00116894  25 1 South. 2 : Okay. Okay. 3 : But the SHU count. 4 : Okay. That would 5 have It would have changed the -. It would 6 have changed the SHU count if it hadn't have 7 been changed previously. 8 : So then would you recall 9 if you went in and actually made these changes 10 to make this accurate? 11 : I mean if it was 12 wrong. I probably did. Offhand, I can't tell 13 you if I actually went in there and changed it 14 from what it previously was. Because I don't 15 know - sitting here today, I couldn't tell you 16 what the count was on that day. 17 : Okay. Do you remember if 18 you went in here and there's a - a line in here 19 - let me see - earlier in the day. Let me just 20 highlight some things so you don't have to find 21 it. Okay. So we can just go through this. I 22 highlighted them so you don't have to be 23 searching. Do you know if you made this 24 addition or change with regard to Reyes being 25 pre-removed. So it was at 8:38 a.m. Reyes to EFTA00116895  26 1 pre-remove? 2 : Oh, no. I don't know 3 why I would be doing that. 4 : No, you wouldn't have 5 added that pre-remove? 6 : At 8:30 the 7 lieutenant - the day - the lieutenant for the 8 day would have still been there. 9 : So you believe 10 whoever the - would that be day watch - whoever 11 the day watch lieutenant was - that would be 12 the person that would add that? 13 : I can tell you who 14 did it. It's on the day watch roster. But I 15 couldn't sit here and give you an honest answer 16 as to who made that change. 17 : But it wasn't you? 18 You wouldn't have done that? 19 : There would have been 20 no reason for me to change an 8:30 entry on day 21 watch. 22 : Okay. And whose 23 responsibility would that have been? 24 : I don't even know who 25 was working that day. EFTA00116896  27 1 : Sure. I'm not saying. 2 I'm saying like what position would it have 3 been like the activities or the ops lieutenant? 4 : I can tell you who's 5 responsible for doing the roster. And it could 6 be either the operations or the activities. 7 : Okay. 8 : You would have to ask 9 the people who were assigned that day about 10 that because -- 11 : Sure. 12 : I would only be 13 guessing. So I don't know. 14 : So the person who put 15 that in there probably would have been the 16 activities or the operations lieutenant for the 17 day watch that would have been working when 18 this happened? Is that correct? 19 : I'm going -. Because 20 it's their roster. But quite honestly, I 21 couldn't tell you who did it. I really can't. 22 : Yeah-yeah-yeah. I know. 23 and I'm not asking - I'm asking you who would 24 be responsible. I was asking first if you did 25 it and you said you didn't. EFTA00116897  28 1 : I could tell. Day 2 watch is responsible for their rosters. 3 Evening watch is responsible for their 4 lieutenant rosters. And morning watch is 5 responsible for their -- 6 : Okay. 7 : -- rosters. 8 : What about -? So 9 Fernandez was the inmate that you discovered in 10 R&D that you told us about after midnight. So 11 are you the one then on this roster that put in 12 that information about Fernandez saying, it 13 says, I/M. Fernandez on dry cell with staff 14 watch in R&D. And then down here at 3:15 p.m. 15 same thing. I/M. Fernandez placed on dry cell 16 from ZA. 17 : I don't know if I did 18 that. 19 : Because you said you were 20 the one who discovered him in R&D, right? 21 : I didn't discover him 22 in R&D. He was already in R&D. 23 : Right, but he was 24 : I was informed that 25 he was in R&D. I didn't discover him. It EFTA00116898  29 1 wasn't like he was in there unattended. 2 : Right. 3 : I mean he -- 4 : No-no-no. 5 : -- didn't get there 6 by himself. 7 : But he wasn't ever placed 8 in R&D. His - the count - he was still counted 9 in the SHU up until you made the change that 10 you told us about after midnight. 11 : The thing with the 12 innate in R&D was that the officers were 13 notifying me that there was an inmate in R&D. 14 : Who was telling you this? 15 : The officers up in 16 SHU. 17 : Okay. 18 : And they weren't sure 19 how the inmate was to be counted I think it 20 was. And I didn't know that the inmate was in 21 R&D. So I was like well let me get a little 22 bit more information on what's going on. You 23 know, before I determine what we're going to do 24 because I don't know the status. We have - as 25 far as I know, there could be - it could have EFTA00116899  30 1 been a new commit in R&D or something to that 2 effect that was going back - that was being 3 placed in the unit or something like that. 4 : So this is going to be to 5 help you kind of recollect what we talked 6 about. Here's the daily log. And on the third 7 page it shows that 8 : He was changed from 9 SHU to R&D or something like that. 10 : This is actually Reyes. 11 So here's the Fernandez one. It shows that - 12 yeah, he was - this is when - and I believe 13 you're the one who told us that you did this. 14 But on 8/10/2019, he was moved from SHU and 15 placed in R&D. So here's the inmate history - 16 the quarters - for Fernandez. 17 : Okay. 18 : And you had mentioned 19 before that this is during the count, you 20 realized that the count was off, so you had to 21 make that change. 22 : We have to move him 23 from SHU and place him in R&D. Yes. 24 : Correct. So when you did 25 that, did you go back? Or at some point during EFTA00116900  31 1 your shift did you - or after your shift - just 2 in general - did you make the additions to 3 Fernandez with - up here - Fernandez being on 4 dry cell and R&D. And then here Fernandez 5 being placed on dry cell from ZA. 6 : I don't remember if I 7 did that. 8 : Is that something you 9 would have done? 10 : It depends on what 11 was already in the log. I don't -. I don't 12 know. I don't. I mean -. It would have 13 depended on what was in log. I don't even know 14 if I went back to the log to see what was 15 reflected in the log. Because as long as I 16 made the change on my shift, I don't know 17 mean I don't mess with people's logs. So as 18 long as I make the change on my shift and made 19 sure that it reflected correctly on my shift, I 20 can't see going beck looking at what somebody 21 else wrote on their sheet. 22 : Okay. So the reason why 23 we think maybe you did - and we're just asking 24 if it was you who may have did it - because if 25 you notice, when you came on the end of your EFTA00116901  32 1 shift. You said 10:00 p.m. About 12:00 a.m. 2 when he was relieved the duties by it 3 says there are 72 inmates in the SHU. And then 4 on August 10th at the beginning of the shift, 5 it shows that there were 73 inmates in the SHU 6 being because Fernandez was moved at 12:35. 7 One SHU correction, Fernandez, dry cell, RA. 8 : Okay. So what are 9 you saying? 10 : So I'm asking if you made 11 the changes. 12 : No -. 13 to the August 9th. 14 : I don't - I don't 15 know. I don't know if I did or not. 16 : So you don't recall if 17 you made these changes or if you added -? 18 : Today from that day 19 to this one, no I don't recall. 20 : Because this - is it true 21 that this number right here 72 should it say 72 22 here? Why would this one say 72 but this say 23 73? 24 : What do you mean? 25 : So at the end -. EFTA00116902  33 1 : What date is this? 2 : This is August 9th at - 3 it's going into August 10th. So I guess at 4 11:59. But on this it says, "clear institution 5 count 10:43 p.m. - 72." 6 : Oh, because it - 7 because at 12:00 when I came in, that was the 8 count that was noted. 9 : Yeah, well -- 10 : 73. 11 -- but these counts also 12 on the count slip in the El was 73, but someone 13 must have gone back and changed it to 72. 14 MS. : Okay. I don't know if I 15 did that. 16 : Okay. Was that something 17 you would have done? We're just trying to 18 figure out why are these numbers not showing 19 what the institution count says. 20 : I can't tell you 21 that. Because like I said, I'm concerned about 22 what's on my roster. If my roster reflects 73 23 at 12:00, why would I in turn go back and 24 change the previous day's count to 72? That 25 doesn't make any sense. EFTA00116903  34 1 : Well that's what we're 2 trying to figure out because -- 3 : Okay, well I -. 4 : -- these counts aren't 5 matching up with what the Els were saying or 6 what the counts slips were saying. 7 : Okay, well I can't 8 help you with that. 9 : So we're just - since 10 you're the one who figured out that Fernandez 11 he was being counted in the SHU up until this 12 point. He was - according to this roster, this 13 lieutenant log, at 3:15, he was moved. Well he 14 was never moved on any of the count slips or 15 any of the Els or any of that. He was always 16 being counted in the SHU. Although, the 17 lieutenant's log is showing that he wasn't. So 18 the lieutenant logs are saying one thing but 19 the El and the count slips are saying something 20 different. So we're trying to figure out who 21 went back and changed these numbers? Who went 22 back and made these additions. The only 23 logical explanation would be since you're the 24 one who actually coded him from the SHU to R&D, 25 the thought is, oh you must have. You must EFTA00116904  35 1 have went back and corrected everything. 2 : I don't know how you 3 came to that conclusion that it was me when -. 4 : Because he's completely 5 Okay, sorry. I didn't want to interrupt 6 you. When what? 7 : When my beginning 8 counts say 73 in five, so why would I go back 9 to day watch or some other shift -- 10 : Well because you started 11 at -- 12 : -- and change their - 13 ? 14 : -- 10:00 p.m. The 10:00 15 p.m. count shows 72. 16 : Okay. So maybe 17 somebody went back and changed what I said. 18 Maybe they changed something that I wrote. I 19 mean -. 20 : Why would have they 21 changed what you wrote? You're the one who 22 discovered it. You have entered in one 23 correction, Fernandez to dry cell, brings it 24 down to that 72 number down to 72. These 25 numbers never showed 73. It said 72. EFTA00116905  36 1 : Because this is what 2 he had - 72. That is what he had. He had 72 3 in five before I came on duty. He had 72 in 4 five. 5 : Okay. Here's the 10:00 6 p.m. count - 73. And this was - you were there 7 for that, right? 8 : The 10:00 p.m. count 9 is already in progress by the time I get there. 10 : Right. 11 : A lot of the times. 12 : But it was at 10:30 p.m. 13 is when it was cleared. And on the 14 lieutenant's log, the 10:43 p.m. clear 15 institution count announced, it says 72. 16 : You said at -. Mind 17 you, I wasn't even aware that this dude was in 18 R&D until I was taking the 12:00 count. That's 19 when they notified me that there was an inmate 20 in R&D. That's when I started looking into all 21 of this stuff. 22 : Okay. So on that note, 23 you said that's when you started looking into 24 the stuff. We have - on this 10:00 p.m. count, 25 you notice on all the count slips, they're all EFTA00116906  37 1 -. So it says there were 73 in ZA and zero in 2 RA. Right? So RA is R&D, correct? On the El. 3 : What is it? RA? 4 : It says RA - it's 5 actually R&D, correct? 6 : Yes. 7 : And there is zero in that 8 it says at this 10:00 p.m. count on August 9th. 9 : I can't see that from 10 way over there. 11 : Sorry. 12 : Yes, it's showing 13 that there were zero. 14 : So zero in R&D and it 15 says 73 in ZA, which is SHU, correct? So R&D 16 we've got a count slip. It shows R&D one. And 17 then we have a ZA count slip that says 73 plus 18 one. So -. 19 : 73 plus one? 20 : It says 73 plus one. We 21 think it maybe was supposed to say 73 minus 22 one. And we're not sure. 23 : No. 24 : But we have a count slip 25 for R&D so if you notice, all of the other EFTA00116907  38 1 count slips are crossed off. These count slips 2 are not. So the R&D count slip is not crossed 3 off. The SHU count slip is not crossed off. 4 When we talked to the McHale, who says - was 5 doing the count slip, who was doing the count, 6 he said this -. It says nine S plus one. And 7 this 73 plus one, would never have -. He would 8 have never written that without the approval of 9 the ops lieutenant if he actually wrote that. 10 : Okay. Well you 11 probably should ask him what ops lieutenant 12 gave him the approval to do that. 13 : Well you were the only 14 ops lieutenant on duty. 15 : I did not find out 16 anything about this inmate being in R&D until 17 the 12:00 count. 18 : Okay. So at 12:00, we've 19 talked to the people that were in the SHU. And 20 they said they never had such a conversation 21 with you. So the thought is maybe you had the 22 conversation at 10:00. 23 : No. Look, no. No. 24 : We're just trying to put 25 the pieces together because it doesn't make EFTA00116908  39 1 sense -- 2 : Okay, well -. 3 : -- by looking at all this 4 stuff. 5 : Okay, well you're not 6 going to put the pieces together by speculating 7 because I didn't find out -. And to be honest 8 with you, I think it was Thomas. Thomas was 9 the one who brought it to my attention. 10 : Thomas said he never did. 11 : Okay. 12 : He never had a 13 conversation with you. 14 : Okay. Well. Thomas 15 may not remember. But I didn't talk to anyone 16 at 10:00 about this one plus inmate. That 17 When we was taking the 12:00 count, that's when 18 this came up about the inmate being in R&D or 19 whatever, which is why the changes occurred at 20 12:00. 21 : Okay. Because yeah, I 22 mean -- 23 : I don't even -- 24 : -- when we last talked 25 you said that you had - you know, you had to go EFTA00116909  40 1 back and do a lot of things in order to make 2 the changes and make sure that he was in R&D. 3 Well this El was printed out at 3517, where's 4 the MA Quarter History? There it is. The 5 change was made at 0035. 6 : Right, after the 7 12:00 count. 8 : So 12:00 count, the El is 9 printed out the exact same minute that the 10 change was made. So if you had to verify these 11 things, how is the El printed out at 0035 and 12 the quarter - the change made from him going 13 from the SHU to R&D also at 0035. 14 : We have to do a new 15 El when the count changes. 16 : Okay. 17 : When the count is 18 effected, we have to run a new El. 19 : All right. So then you 20 would have -. 21 : To reflect the 22 change. 23 : So you were able to that 24 quickly during this count be able to like 25 figure all that out rather than -. And the EFTA00116910  41 1 theory that we have is that - and I don't know 2 that there's anything wrong with this. We just 3 need to put the pieces together. 4 : I can't help you put 5 the pieces together because 6 : Do you know -? 7 : -- what I'm telling 8 you is that at 12:00, when I was taking the 9 12:00 count, that was the count that I always 10 took for the most part, because I was busy 11 doing overtime trying to fill overtime and 12 stuff like that when I first got in. So the 13 first count that I would have taken was the 14 12:00 count. That's when it came to my 15 attent