EFTA00113482.pdf

1 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF MARK EPSTEIN OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL SEPTEMBER 22, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES EFTA00113482  2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: MARK EPSTEIN OTHER APPEARANCES: STACEY RICHMAN EFTA00113483  3 1 : The recorder has started. 2 : This is Special Agent 3 with the Department of Justice, Office 4 of the Inspector General. Today is Wednesday, 5 September 22, 2021. The time is 10:29 a.m. We 6 are here at the New York Field Office, in 7 Office of Inspector General. Present is Mr. 8 Mark Epstein. Attorney Stacey Richman. DOJ 9 Senior Special Agent And 10 myself. We are conducting an interview with 11 Mr. Mark Epstein in regards to Jeffrey 12 Epstein's investigation, of his death. I'm 13 going to introduce myself for the recording, 14 and I'm going to state my last name, also spell 15 it out. My name is Special Agent 16 17 : Senior Special Agent 18 with the U.S Department of 19 Justice, Office of the Inspector General. 20 21 : Okay. 22 MR. EPSTEIN: Mark Epstein. E-P-S-T-E-I- 23 N. 24 : Attorney Richmond, can you 25 introduce yourself? EFTA00113484  4 1 2 MS. RICHMAN: Stacey Richman. S-T-A-C-E- 3 Y. R-I-C-H-M-A-N. 4 MR. EPSTEIN: And when you stated, my name 5 Mark is M-A-R-K. Not with a C. A K. 6 : Thank you for taking the time 7 to talk to us today. 8 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 9 : Just for the record, you are 10 Mark Epstein, Mr. Jeffrey Epstein's brother. 11 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. 12 : And I understand that 13 basically, you reached out through attorney 14 Richman, you reached out to us, and you stated 15 that there was a few things you wanted to share 16 with the OIG. 17 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. 18 : Go ahead. You can go ahead. 19 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. 20 : Let me just ask some, 21 like, just, or ask to maybe see his license, 22 just so we can verify 23 : Yeah. 24 : -- if you don't want to 25 ask him for his date of birth. (Indiscernible EFTA00113485  5 1 *00:01:46) 2 : Yeah. Can we verify? 3 MR. EPSTEIN: Sure. 4 : Or you can just ask your 5 birthday, date of birth. 6 : Yeah. 7 : It's one or the other. 8 MR. EPSTEIN: Oh, it's only my driver's 9 license. 10 : Mr. Mark Epstein has shown me 11 a photo, driver's license, and it has his 12 picture on it, and it states his name on it. 13 Just for the record, here is my credentials. 14 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. 15 : I'm a Special Agent 16 with the DOJ/OIG. 17 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. 18 : And these are my 19 credentials. Senior Special Agent -- 20 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. 21 • 22 You can go now. 23 : Go ahead. 24 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. As I mentioned 25 before, before you came, I told them that, when EFTA00113486  6 1 I first heard of Jeffrey's death, I just 2 assumed that it was a suicide, because it was 3 reported as such, and that time, I had no 4 reason to doubt it. And I just respected his 5 decision to take himself out. But then, as 6 things progressed, and when more information 7 came out, it looks like, if you just looked at 8 the information, there's no way in the world 9 you would say it was a suicide. The first 10 thing being the autopsy. The autopsy was 11 conducted the next day. It was conducted by 12 the city pathologist. And I was right, I was 13 able to get a pathologist to witness this, and 14 had Dr. (Phonetic Sp. 15 *00:03:00). I don't know if you know Dr. 16 , but you can't get a -- 17 MS. RICHMAN: He's the former Chief 18 Medical Examiner of the city of New York. 19 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 20 MS. RICHMAN: So, he went back to his 21 office because he was hired by Mark to review, 22 and be present, at the autopsy. 23 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. Normally, if I hire a 24 forensic pathologist to review the autopsy, he 25 has the right to just stand here and watch. EFTA00113487  7 1 And then, we can get the body, afterwards, to 2 do a second autopsy, if needed. But because of 3 who is, they did whatever he requested 4 them to do with the autopsy. So, there was no 5 need for a second autopsy. also, has 6 been on the Special Commission, investigating 7 prison deaths, since the Attica riots in 1970. 8 So, he's been doing this for a long time. 9 There's no better authority in prison 10 deaths than . And the city 11 pathologist came out with Dr. and her 12 determination was, she could not call this a 13 suicide. There was too many questionable 14 things, you know, like the broken bones in his 15 neck. And confirmed that, he also, not 16 to call this a suicide. It looks much more 17 like a homicide. Plus, there were the wounds 18 on his body. I'm, like, I have pictures I 19 could show you. And then, when we got the 20 death certificate to move, to claim the body, 21 the cause of death was pending. You know, 22 pending for an investigation. And then, a few 23 days later, the Chief Medical Examiner of New 24 York declares it a suicide. 25 MS. RICHMAN: Just to clarify. We found EFTA00113488  8 1 out, through the media, they were going to make 2 that change. So, we called the Medical 3 Examiner's Office, asking how come you haven't 4 notified the family, and what is the central 5 reason for changing this? We interviewed them 6 for about, hmm, an hour. And we discovered 7 that they really didn't have much of a basis. 8 But everybody was just closing the 9 investigation. And when I persisted, is when I 10 learned that the camera on the floor, where Mr. 11 Epstein's cell was, had been corrupted. And no 12 one had actually viewed that camera. 13 MR. EPSTEIN: Now, one of the questions 14 about the camera on the tier, I don't know, 15 there's some pictures of, you know, we're 16 walking through the tier, and (Indiscernible 17 *00:05:08) all the cameras, right? That camera 18 wasn't working. So, one of the questions I 19 have is, when did that camera stop working? 20 When was the last time that camera actually 21 took a picture, you know, and have they 22 determined why that camera wasn't working? 23 Were the wires cut? 24 Was it unplugged, or, you know, why was 25 that camera not working? There is an answer to EFTA00113489  9 1 that. You know, and I am going to get it. I 2 had, I could start showing some pictures, but 3 to keep going on, you know, because they did, 4 they swabbed - under autopsy report - they 5 swabbed his fingers for DNA evidence, in case 6 somebody was there. Was that ever checked? I 7 never saw the results of that DNA testing. You 8 know, nothing has been (Indiscernible 9 *00:05:50) for that. 10 And one of the things that lit up my mind 11 on top of this, one of the big things is that, 12 Attorney General Barr made a statement, saying 13 that he viewed the camera that was outside of 14 the tier, that showed the door, and the guards, 15 as that's directly right between, that the 16 guards were just, you know, jerking off, or 17 (Indiscernible *00:06:09) web, or whatever they 18 were doing. Make sure that video tape, and he 19 said that, he said that nobody went - that he 20 personally saw it, which I thought was strange. 21 You know, that nobody went in or out of the 22 tier. 23 So, that convinced them it was a suicide. 24 You guys are professional investigators. I am 25 not. But for me, the lights went off, I said, EFTA00113490  10 1 either this is the stupidest guy on the planet, 2 or, if Jeffrey was killed, the killer was 3 already on the tier. So, it's just things that 4 might be come into the tier to kill him, I 5 mean, there's too many witnesses, how do you 6 get somebody in or out? But if he was killed, 7 the killer was already on the tier. 8 So, for him to make the statement that no 9 one went in or out, that convinced him it was a 10 suicide. I mean, that's like a, I think we 11 agree, it was like an amateur mistake in the 12 investigations, because there were a number of 13 people inside. Right? Well, let me pull up 14 something to show you. 15 MS. RICHMAN: Okay. 16 : On that note, do you have 17 any information that anyone was actually in his 18 cell? 19 MR. EPSTEIN: There was nobody in his 20 cell. 21 MS. RICHMAN: Well, was 22 MR. EPSTEIN: There was supposed to be 23 somebody in his cell. Because he was 24 supposedly on suicide watch, doing whatever, 25 and he was released, and there was supposed to EFTA00113491  11 1 be somebody in his cell, and there wasn't, and 2 he was taken out. He was alone that night, in 3 his cell. And so, other, like, just 4 evidentiary things, they report that he was 5 found unresponsive in his cell. And then was 6 taken to the hospital. He wasn't found 7 unresponsive. He was found dead. Okay? 8 Jeffrey was dead for a minimum of two hours 9 before they found him. And I will show you how 10 we know that. 11 MS. RICHMAN: Also, talk about the 12 description of the (Indiscernible *00:07:45). 13 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. A 14 whole bunch of things. I got -. I have a list 15 of the number of the photos. I left it at 16 home, unfortunately, but I will pull them up, 17 and have a look. 18 : Now, are you going to 19 show us why you know that he was dead for at 20 least two hours? 21 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. Yeah. 22 : Okay. 23 MR. EPSTEIN: I'm going to get to that 24 picture. As soon as I can. 25 : Just for the recording, I'm EFTA00113492  12 1 just going to state that Mr. Epstein has his 2 own laptop, and he is providing us He is 3 just going to explain the pictures to us. 4 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 5 : In your custody. 6 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. Also, in the autopsy 7 8 MS. RICHMAN: And the picture is from the 9 autopsy. 10 : From the autopsy. 11 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. Yeah. They also 12 found, you know, three broken bones in his 13 neck. Which is extremely rare to have one 14 broken bone, when you do what's called a soft 15 hanging. You have, like, Robin Williams hung 16 himself with a bathrobe thing. With the belt 17 thing. Those are soft hangings. You usually 18 don't break bones, and he had three breaks. 19 Which is one of the reasons they thought it was 20 more like a homicide. If you -. 21 : So, what we're looking at 22 is, do you know which bones we're talking 23 about? 24 MR. EPSTEIN: It's the higher bone. 25 Something like the (Indiscernible *00:08:47), EFTA00113493  13 1 is what it's called. 2 : And did they ever -- 3 MR. EPSTEIN: And it really isn't -. 4 : discuss anything about 5 chest compressions? Would that potentially 6 have happened during CPR? 7 MR. EPSTEIN: No. 8 MS. RICHMAN: No. 9 MR. EPSTEIN: No. This is the neck. 10 MS. RICHMAN: Chest compressions are 11 lower. 12 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. Chest compressions. 13 It can break ribs. Not the higher. 14 MS. RICHMAN: So. 15 MR. EPSTEIN: It felt pretty useful. See, 16 this is the camera that wasn't working. 17 : Right. 18 MR. EPSTEIN: That would show him 19 (Indiscernible *00:09:09). 20 And they provide you with 21 all of this? 22 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 23 : Okay. 24 MS. RICHMAN: (Indiscernible *00:09:24) 25 releases. EFTA00113494  14 1 : Really? 2 MS. RICHMAN: Mm-hmm. 3 : (Indiscernible 4 *00:09:28)? 5 MS. RICHMAN: (Indiscernible *00:09:28). 6 : Oh, for the statement of 7 information in? 8 MS. RICHMAN: That was just released 9 (Indiscernible *00:09:33). And announced by 10 the (Indiscernible *00:09:39). 11 MR. EPSTEIN: Do you guys (Indiscernible 12 *00:09:40) with murder investigations? Is that 13 part of the normally? I mean, do you have, 14 like, any forensic experience on that? 15 : So, our investigation 16 pertains to the death of -- 17 MR. EPSTEIN: All right. 18 : -- Jeffrey. 19 (Indiscernible *00:09:59). 20 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. One thing I'll show 21 you now, before we get to, is that the only way 22 they was trying to say that, well, he put a 23 noose on his neck, and sort of jumped off the 24 top bunk. That would give him that breaks, or 25 it would be harsh. You know, like, if you saw EFTA00113495  15 1 the Shawshank Redemption, when Brooks kicked 2 himself off the chair, you know, and fall down. 3 That's (Indiscernible *00:10:23), because it 4 has to be harsh like that. The top bunk in 5 Jeffrey's cell was filled with his medications 6 (Indiscernible *00:10:29). Nobody was on that 7 bunk. Nobody jumped off that bunk. I'm just 8 looking for the neck pictures. Also, let me go 9 back one second. Shit, I apologize for not 10 having that list. 11 MS. RICHMAN: (Indiscernible *00:10:54). 12 MR. EPSTEIN: Uh-huh. Also, what, another 13 question I have is, who was in charge in the 14 prison? Who -? First of all, they moved the 15 body, which you're not supposed to do. And 16 supposedly, they (Indiscernible *00:11:11), you 17 know, when they find a dead body in prison, 18 they're not supposed to move it. They're 19 supposed to get the Medical Examiner's Office, 20 so they can (Indiscernible *00:11:17) surprise. 21 I mean, they had it look like -. He was moved. 22 Now, if you saw the photographs, when they 23 took him out of the hospital, he was on a 24 gurney, and he was intubated. They were trying 25 to squeeze the tube with no air in it. It EFTA00113496  16 1 said, he's dead for two hours. Why were they 2 trying to make it look like he was alive? 3 Like, these are -. The EMTs - and I would like 4 to talk to them - it's , and I 5 think it's III (Indiscernible *00:11:44), them 6 two EMTs. If I recall, they're the EMTs that 7 were actually in the cell. 8 : Okay. 9 MR. EPSTEIN: Now, just, let me go back 10 one second. Here is another picture of the top 11 bunk. You see, nobody was there. So, I would 12 like to talk to those two guys. 13 : Yeah. 14 MR. EPSTEIN: This is the noose. Right? 15 Look at that. When the guards found him, the 16 guy was (Indiscernible *00:12:10), he's saying 17 that he cut him down. And I think the guard 18 said Michael Thomas. The guard that found him. 19 He said he cut him down. Yeah. You see the 20 edge of his noose thing? That's a himmed edge. 21 That wasn't cut. Okay? If this was tied to 22 something, this would be wrinkled. It would be 23 marked from there, you know, like, here, you 24 see, like, creases in this part? There would 25 be something here, showing that this was tied EFTA00113497  17 1 to something. Okay? Here is another question 2 I have. He was dead when they took him. When 3 they found him. And he was wearing - and I 4 checked through someone who was there, who said 5 that, I guess, what was he wearing in the cell? 6 And he was wearing his orange boxer shorts and 7 t-shirt. The prison clothing. 8 : Okay. 9 MR. EPSTEIN: They take his dead body out. 10 And it was either, they cut the stuff off of 11 him, because I have pictures of the boxer 12 shorts cut. Who dressed the dead body with the 13 hospital gown? Okay. Dead bodies, you cover 14 with a sheet. He wasn't going to run down the 15 hall in the hospital, with his balls flapping 16 in the wind. He didn't have to hide. So, who 17 -? Who -? Now, I know that when they took him 18 to the hospital, there were four people in the 19 room, and somebody had a hand-held video. And, 20 like, and they were working down at the 21 hospital. Where is that tape? 22 : Okay. 23 : How do you know that? 24 MR. EPSTEIN: I was told that. 25 : Okay. Also, there is a EFTA00113498  18 1 question of, why was he moved? Because you 2 know, you know what (Indiscernible *00:13:57) 3 is? 4 : Yes. 5 : Yes. 6 MR. EPSTEIN: You know, you die, you fall 7 on your back, your gut turns purple, because 8 you (Indiscernible *00:14:02). 9 : Okay. 10 MR. EPSTEIN: Now, he was moved. So, I 11 want to find out from Michael Thomas, what 12 position was Jeffrey in when he found him? And 13 I'll know the answer to that. Because he was 14 sitting, like, right by (Indiscernible 15 *00:14:14), you know, your ass in the back, 16 your legs are going to go, you know, if you're 17 leaning forward, doing it that way, but you 18 (Indiscernible *00:14:19) your legs are going 19 to go. You know, so, what position was he in? 20 After they found him 21 : So, you said Michael 22 Thomas made statements. Which statements are 23 (Indiscernible *00:14:28)? 24 MR. EPSTEIN: Well, he said he cut him 25 down. EFTA00113499  19 1 : Where did you get that 2 statement from? 3 MR. EPSTEIN: It was in the paper. 4 MS. RICHMAN: It was (Indiscernible 5 *00:14:31). 6 MR. EPSTEIN: That was that (Indiscernible 7 *00:14:32). 8 : Like, recently, or was 9 that 10 MR. EPSTEIN: No. NO. 11 : -- at the time? 12 MR. EPSTEIN: At the time. 13 MS. RICHMAN: At the time. 14 : Yeah, yeah. 15 MR. EPSTEIN: At the time. 16 : They hadn't received the 17 statements from him then, did they? 18 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. He was (Indiscernible 19 *00:14:40) at the time, but, you know, he said, 20 I mean, that's what he said, he would cut him 21 down and said, you fucked up. Or you messed 22 up. You know, when the supervisor 23 (Indiscernible *00:14:46), he said he messed 24 up, he didn't do the checks. Or something to 25 that effect. EFTA00113500  20 1 : Okay. 2 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. 3 : But not, like, an 4 official report -- 5 MR. EPSTEIN: I dont -- 6 : -- stating that? 7 MR. EPSTEIN: -- I don't. They don't show 8 me them. 9 MS. RICHMAN: (Indiscernible *00:14:57) 10 evidence from that prosecution. 11 : Right, right. 12 MS. RICHMAN: That would be (Indiscernible 13 *00:15:00). 14 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. 15 MS. RICHMAN: (Indiscernible *00:15:03) 16 MR. EPSTEIN: That's his neck. All right? 17 If I strangle you, now that, number one, does 18 not look like a sheet. It looks more like an 19 electric cord, because he had a CPAP machine in 20 this room, with an electric cord. 21 : Okay. 22 MR. EPSTEIN: That does not look like a 23 sheet. Plus, if he had a sheet around his 24 neck, it would be discolored from the 25 secretions from his skin. Okay? Now, if I EFTA00113501  21 1 strangle you, metaphorically, with an electric 2 (Indiscernible *00:15:26), okay? You won't get 3 a groove in your neck, because your internal 4 self pressure will flatten your skin back out. 5 Like, you might get a little abrasion mark, or 6 rub mark, but you won't get a groove stuck in 7 your neck. That takes at least two hours. 8 That's how we know he was dead for at least two 9 hours, because of that. Okay? That's 10 uncontroverted. 11 MS. RICHMAN: It's not consistent with 12 what you thought was demonstrated as the noose. 13 : Right. 14 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. 15 MS. RICHMAN: (Indiscernible *00:15:52) 16 evidence with (Indiscernible *00:15:53) 17 MR. EPSTEIN: He could have been for six 18 hours. But a minimum of two. That's Dr. 19 you know, opinion, which I take is 20 more of (Indiscernible *00:16:04), as opposed 21 to it. That's not a sheet. That looks more 22 like an electric cord. Also, you see these 23 marks above the groove line? 24 MS. RICHMAN: Uh-huh. 25 : Okay. EFTA00113502  22 1 MR. EPSTEIN: If you hang yourself, and 2 you put something around your neck, and you 3 hang yourself, okay, it's going to slip up. 4 It's going to go high on your neck. If 5 anything, the skin below that mark is going to 6 be abraded. Or roughed up. Because the nooses 7 don't (Indiscernible *00:16:27). You're not 8 going to get marks above your noose. That's -. 9 It won't go down. Your neck won't mark above 10 the noose. The noose line or whatever, the 11 ligature, whatever was used. 12 You know, where these marks above the 13 line. That means also, if you hang yourself, 14 that line goes up. It goes to your ears. You 15 strangle with a garrote, that's the more 16 straight back. I mean, the line goes all the 17 way back and that's what to expect. Okay? So, 18 here's the closer look. The better look. 19 That's not the noose, it's not a sheet doing 20 that. That's being abraded from that. Also, 21 his eyes. And I'm going to have pictures of 22 it. When you strangle, you know, the little 23 blood vessels in your eyes burst. The -- 24 MS. RICHMAN: (Indiscernible *00:17:33). 25 MR. EPSTEIN: -- the tipia (Phonetic Sp. EFTA00113503  23 1 *00:17:33), whatever, and it's exhibited here. 2 Also, he has a cut on his arm here. You know, 3 so, you can see the groove is in there. That 4 groove is not coming out. What number is that? 5 That may be the list. Hold on. Let's reboot. 6 : When did you last - wuick 7 question, you mentioned that you hard from 8 somebody that they had a (Indiscernible 9 *00:18:09) in your time at the hospital. Who 10 did you hear that from? 11 MR. EPSTEIN: Do you have a specific name? 12 MR. EPSTEIN: No. Okay. This is the 13 (Indiscernible *00:18:50). Where is the little 14 (Indiscernible *00:18:56)? (Indiscernible 15 *00:19:05), because there's a cut on his lip 16 here. Look at that. There's a bruise on the 17 back of his neck here. Oh, there's another 18 question I had before I forget, is in the 19 paperwork, the last guards to see him was Tova 20 Noel and (Indiscernible *00:19:43). You see 21 here, it's like just a little (Indiscernible 22 *00:20:11). Another thing you should be 23 investigating, assuming he was killed, is 24 (Indiscernible *00:21:37). Because I was also 25 told this was through somebody who EFTA00113504  24 1 (Indiscernible *00:21:47), through the 2 attorney, because somebody was under water, he 3 said that somebody was (Indiscernible 4 *00:21:47). So, you know, there is an old 5 saying that anyone can commit murder, but it 6 takes an artist to commit suicide. If this was 7 done, somebody who was put on that 8 (Indiscernible *00:22:07) to do this. Somebody 9 was (Indiscernible *00:22:12). He was killed, 10 you know, back to his cell, anyone else 11 (Indiscernible *00:22:15) after the fact, a lto 12 of times have been transferred off. Because if 13 someone was (Indiscernible *00:22:22) to do 14 this. I don't know if he's lost (Indiscernible 15 *00:22:23), find out who was on that cord, you 16 know, that was two weeks practically. 17 : Who told you that someone 18 was (Indiscernible *00:22:29)? 19 MR. EPSTEIN: A journalist. 20 (Indiscernible *00:22:29). He lied. 21 : Ah. Now, that is 22 something we would very much like to follow up 23 on (Indiscernible *00:22:41)? Was there any -? 24 Can you talk to someone about how that would 25 (Indiscernible *00:22:44), or not? EFTA00113505  25 1 MR. EPSTEIN: I will ask, if I can get you 2 the (Indiscernible *00:22:46). 3 : Okay. 4 MS. RICHMAN: (Indiscernible *00:22:52) it 5 was there at night. (Indiscernible *00:23:11). 6 MR. EPSTEIN: I've also heard that 7 there's, like, 20 plus guards that were, like, 8 there that, furlough, that haven't worked 9 since. (Indiscernible *00:23:24). 10 : That's the same noose on the 11 floor? 12 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. 13 MS. RICHMAN: Absolutely. 14 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 15 MS. RICHMAN: (Indiscernible *00:23:35). 16 Back to the tier. 17 : Okay. 18 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. That's -. Yeah. 19 Yeah. That's not cut. It's kind of 20 (Indiscernible *00:23:45). And it's not, you 21 know, I mean, it's pretty standard sizes, I 22 believe. And this would be discolored from the 23 secretions of his neck, (Indiscernible 24 *00:23:54). Things I will also tell you is 25 that, in 2016 election, my brother didn't tell EFTA00113506  26 1 me why he (Indiscernible *00:24:08). What he 2 told me is he said what he knew about 3 (Indiscernible *00:24:10), Trump (Indiscernible 4 *00:24:13), because they would have to cancel 5 the election. 6 My brother is also (Indiscernible 7 *00:24:19). He's worked with Steve Bannon, 8 who's worked with (Indiscernible *00:24:19). 9 Steve Bannon has 16 hours of video tape. 10 (Indiscernible *00:24:27). I know this because 11 my brother said he worked with him. And on 12 that day, he said he stopped hanging out with 13 Trump, when he realized (Indiscernible 14 *00:24:37). In the papers, they're reading he 15 stopped hanging out with Trump, and, like, he 16 fell apart (Indiscernible *00:24:39). It was 17 bullshit. Everybody was, like, (Indiscernible 18 *00:24:44). He stopped hanging out with Trump 19 when he realized Trump was a dick. That's 20 exactly what he said. And I think 21 (Indiscernible *00:24:57). All right. And I 22 don't have any proof, but if this was a murder, 23 then the government would probably 24 (Indiscernible *00:25:05). And I Know, also, 25 that hurting somebody else in a federal prison, EFTA00113507  27 1 that the DEA agent transported to a maximum 2 security. He's a real bad ass and carried on, 3 and felt even worse. You know, he was brought 4 out to be (Indiscernible *00:25:21). They 5 handcuffed him before they uncuff him, and he 6 was a DEA agent who was getting the credibility 7 as a criminal, as a bad guy. A troublemaker. 8 (Indiscernible *00:25:30). So, it's justice 9 from, you can put people in prison that have 10 (Indiscernible *00:25:34). 11 : Okay. 12 MR. EPSTEIN: That's (Indiscernible 13 *00:25:35). I was told that by somebody. So, 14 yeah. So, also, the thing I wanted to show you 15 here, the reason I - honestly, to be honest 16 with you - I think Trump is behind it. If 17 someone was closer on the inside told me Trump 18 (Indiscernible *00:25:53), after his death, you 19 know, someone who knows more about this shit 20 than I do. 21 : Well, when you say that 22 Trump was a crook, or that your brother said 23 that he (Indiscernible *00:26:00), can you give 24 more information other than just that? 25 MR. EPSTEIN: No. He didn't tell me that, EFTA00113508  28 1 but if you were a legal busines man, you would 2 know that Trump is a crook. Everybody knows 3 trump is a crook. That's why no legitimate 4 real estate people would deal with him. 5 : And when you say, 6 "Crook," though, can you just kind of - 7 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. He -- 8 : -- explain that. 9 MR. EPSTEIN: he robs people. He 10 probably close to the wealth he has comes from 11 the money he didn't pay people. He screwed 12 over, over and over. And he gets - pays them, 13 like, a percentage of what he owes them, they 14 sign non-disclosure agreements. That's how he 15 slides. And everybody knew that. Yeah. 16 : All right. 17 (VIDEO PLAYS) 18 MR. EPSTEIN: Now, this video was from 19 before my brother's death. (Indiscernible 20 *00:26:49). But wait, I'm going to get to the 21 beginning of the part. 22 MS. RICHMAN: Some of the information 23 about that is also (Indiscernible *00:27:03), 24 when you were talking about (Indiscernible 25 *00:27:08). EFTA00113509  29 1 MR. EPSTEIN: Well, let me see if I can 2 (Indiscernible *00:27:12). Oh, he asked them 3 (Indiscernible *00:27:17). All right. So, 4 this is before he died. 5 : So, we're looking at -- 6 MR. EPSTEIN: I've met Trump. 7 -- President Trump there, 8 as well as a news reporter. 9 MR. EPSTEIN: O'Reilly. Bill O'Reilly. 10 : Bill O'Reilly. 11 MR. EPSTEIN: (Indiscernible *00:27:54). 12 : Do you know when that was 13 done? 14 MR. EPSTEIN: It was prior to the death. 15 That was. 16 : Prior to the death. 17 MR. EPSTEIN: But, you know, I mean, 18 personally, I think Trump was jealous that 19 people (Indiscernible *00:28:06), and wanted to 20 take that power. That's (Indiscernible 21 *00:28:09) to Trump. (Indiscernible 22 *00:28:14). You know? 23 MS. RICHMAN: I noticed that's not your 24 strongest argument. 25 MR. EPSTEIN: No. It's not my strongest EFTA00113510  30 1 argument. It's, that's an opinion. Okay? But 2 this is my strongest argument. 3 : So, when is the last time 4 you spoke with Jeffrey? 5 MR. EPSTEIN: The Thursday night before he 6 was arrested. 7 : DO you remember around 8 when that date would have been? 9 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. July 8th and 9th or 10 something. 11 : Okay. 12 MR. EPSTEIN: On a Thursday night. 13 : So, 2019? 14 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. Yeah. It was right 15 before his death. So, he called me if he was 16 in Paris. He called me, just the usual, you 17 know, (Indiscernible *00:28:41). You know? 18 And then, the next day, he, you know, flew 19 back. And he was arrested that Friday. 20 (Indiscernible *00:28:50). Saturday morning, 21 his attorneys called me and told me he was 22 arrested. 23 : And how often would you 24 talk with Jeffrey up until then? 25 MR. EPSTEIN: We would talk every couple EFTA00113511  31 1 of weeks, or something like that. A week. A 2 month. That, you know, we emailed something. 3 Whatever. You know? Just keep trying, and I 4 keep telling him what's happening with the 5 family stuff, and we (Indiscernible *00:29:08) 6 stories. When - he used to hang out with Billy 7 Idol, though. So, he would tell me funny 8 things that we had on set. I guess Billy Idol 9 is a funny guy. 10 : So -- 11 MR. EPSTEIN: You know, we just use 12 (Indiscernible *00:29:17) other. Just keep 13 check. 14 : I don't know where we 15 heard this information from, but I was told, I 16 was informed that you were estranged for, like, 17 a number of years. Is that not correct? 18 MR. EPSTEIN: No. No. 19 MS. RICHMAN: You hadn't seen him. 20 MR. EPSTEIN: I haven't seen him. 21 : Okay. 22 MR. EPSTEIN: My mother died in 2004. Or 23 - yeah -. 2004. Since that time, maybe I saw 24 him a handful of times. And the last time was 25 seven years prior to his death. EFTA00113512  32 1 : Okay. SO, you hadn't 2 seen him for seven years 3 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 4 : -- but you spoke over the 5 telephone a number of few weeks? 6 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah, yeah. And emailed. 7 Yeah. Yeah. 8 : Okay. And email? 9 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. It's, like, for 10 instance, I mean, I have the email exchange, 11 and when he sent me the video clip, that back 12 (Indiscernible *00:29:52), you know? And I 13 asked him, you know, what was this for. You 14 know, and he said the (Indiscernible *00:30:00) 15 testimony. I said, you were subpoenaed? 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. EPSTEIN: He said, no. (Indiscernible 18 *00:30:03). He was just, he was doing stuff. 19 And, you know, he just, he said he, I thought 20 (Indiscernible *00:30:09), he thought I would 21 find it funny. I remember, it was, like, he 22 was had a beer in the video, and I've never 23 seen my brother with a beer before. So, I 24 wrote back. I said, the funniest part is, you 25 were with a beer. And he wrote back and he EFTA00113513  33 1 said, that you could tell who I was? My 2 disguise didn't work? You know, it was just, 3 it was just banter between two brothers. 4 (Indiscernible *00:30:26). 5 : So -. 6 MR. EPSTEIN: So, that was the last time I 7 spoke to him, was that Thursday night before he 8 was (Indiscernible *00:30:32). 9 : Okay. Do you know 10 anything about his state of mind leading up to 11 -- 12 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. I know who he spoke 13 to the day before he died. 14 : And who did he speak 15 with? 16 MR. EPSTEIN: He spoke to someone who was 17 close to him. I mean, and they had 18 (Indiscernible *00:30:45). Not a clue 19 (Indiscernible *00:30:45) that this happened. 20 And most of his, one of the attorneys gave a 21 (Indiscernible *00:30:50) was publicly saying 22 that he spoke to Jeffrey, Jeffrey was very 23 upbeat. He also thought he had good taste, 24 using (Indiscernible *00:30:56) non-prosecution 25 agreement he had, from Florida, from years EFTA00113514  34 1 back. So, and also, when Jeffrey was first 2 arrested, his attorneys called me and asked me 3 if I would, back and help him with his bail. 4 They said it's (Indiscernible *00:31:12) 5 other people, (Indiscernible *00:31:13) 6 participate in the bail. Because they should. 7 (Indiscernible *00:31:15). And then, Jeffrey 8 was not going to flee. He wasn't flee. 9 (Indiscernible *00:31:19). Not that he would 10 do that anyhow. Because he (Indiscernible 11 *00:31:23). And that's what put me on the map. 12 Most people didn't even know Jeff had a 13 brother. 14 : Okay. 15 MR. EPSTEIN: We had a social life 16 together. And so, that's where my head, dating 17 back, you know, refer to it as a (Indiscernible 18 *00:31:36) proctologist. Every journalist on 19 the planet would (Indiscernible *00:31:38) to 20 try to find some dirt on me, to try to make me 21 tell this kind of stuff. (Indiscernible 22 *00:31:45). But yeah, he had two separate 23 lives. And so, bail was denied. And then, he 24 had a bail hearing coming up two days after he 25 died. EFTA00113515  35 1 And this time - and he was pretty up, 2 like, you know, his jets, the house, those 100 3 million dollars' worth of stuff for the bail. 4 The highest bail in the United Sates ever was 5 100 million dollars. So, (Indiscernible 6 *00:32:09). But that's the highest bail they 7 ruled on. When they were going through the 8 appeal on the bail, his attorneys called me up 9 and they asked me if I would guarantee his 10 entire bail. And it has since doubled. And I 11 agreed to it. 12 : Okay. 13 MR. EPSTEIN: And so, there might have 14 been a chance he got bail in two days. 15 MS. RICHMAN: Right. 16 MR. EPSTEIN: And then, he would have been 17 under house arrest. He would have paid for 18 guards. They would have an ankle monitor. 19 Camera. Whatever it would take to do this all. 20 So, if you - and I think, you know, if he was 21 going to go take himself out, wait two fucking 22 days. You know, if you got bail, then you at 23 least, you're home for a year before the trial 24 comes up, if nothing else. (Indiscernible 25 *00:32:46). Doesn't make sense. EFTA00113516  36 1 : Yeah. 2 MR. EPSTEIN: If Jeffrey went. I don't 3 think Jeffrey would do that. 4 : SO, you did actually 5 agree to the bail 6 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. 7 : -- to (Indiscernible 8 *00:32:54) close to the bail? 9 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. 10 : And that was two days 11 after he was found? 12 MR. EPSTEIN: No, no, no. 13 MS. RICHMAN: That's the day 14 MR. EPSTEIN: The hearing was supposed to 15 -. I agree 16 : That's right. 17 MR. EPSTEIN: -- I agreed before he was 18 dead, but the hearing was supposed to take 19 place -. Like, he died, I think it was August 20 9th. Or something. The hearing was scheduled 21 for, like, 11th or something. There was, like, 22 a two-day gap. 23 : And then, do you remember 24 how much the bail was? 25 MR. EPSTEIN: Close to 100 million. EFTA00113517  37 1 : It was close to 100? 2 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. 3 : Okay. 4 : Still, just to clarify, you 5 mentioned 100 million dollar bail, and you 6 guaranteed it on top of it. So, that was 7 technically 200 million? 8 MR. EPSTEIN: Right. And his friend David 9 Mitchell put up some. I don't know how much 10 David put up. But he was also in the initial 11 pool at first, (Indiscernible *00:33:31) house. 12 IN Florida. David had also put up some 13 (Indiscernible *00:33:35). David Michell is 14 the one who -. The friend. And I heard he was 15 reaching, you know, (Indiscernible *00:33:40). 16 : Now, as far as the person 17 that he - were you saying that he spoke with 18 someone on the telephone, prior to August 9th 19 or 10th? 20 MR. EPSTEIN: The night -- 21 : Or something. 22 MR. EPSTEIN: -- the evening before he 23 died, because it was (Indiscernible *00:33:54), 24 yeah. 25 : And was that a female? EFTA00113518  38 1 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes, it was. 2 : And do you want to say 3 the name of it, and ask if that's correct. 4 : Is the name 5 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. 6 : Is that who he spoke to? 7 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. 8 : And you spoke to Who is 9 to Mr. Epstein? 10 MR. EPSTEIN: A friend. 11 : A childhood friend, a long- 12 time friend? 13 MR. EPSTEIN: A number of years. 14 : Were they in a relationship, 15 or -? 16 MR. EPSTEIN: His exact nature of it, I 17 don't know, because I didn't know of her. But 18 I know she's been -. I just found out she was 19 in the picture a number of years. I believe 20 eight years. 21 : In a romantic relationship? 22 MR. EPSTEIN: I believe so. Yeah. 23 MS. RICHMAN: But you didn't know 24 confirmation? You had, like -. 25 MR. EPSTEIN: I can't ask Jeff. EFTA00113519  39 1 MS. RICHMAN: Right. Obviously. 2 : Have you spoken with her? 3 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. 4 : And did she say that htye 5 were in a romantic relationship? 6 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. (Indiscernible 7 *00:34:44). 8 : She did? 9 MR. EPSTEIN: I believe it to be so, and I 10 found pictures. 11 : And have you seen -? 12 Have you spoken with her since August 9, 2019? 13 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes. Yes. 14 : Did she tell you what the 15 conversation, took place during (Indiscernible 16 *00:34:55)? 17 MR. EPSTEIN: He said he was It 18 sounded upbeat, and is that she didn't think he 19 committed suicide. It was -. It didn't sound 20 like he was going to do that. 21 : But did she say anything 22 that they talked about, though? 23 MR. EPSTEIN: No. I didn't want to get 24 too personal. And, you know, at the time it wa 25 , like, you know, my brother is dead, I EFTA00113520  40 1 (Indiscernible *00:35:08) conversation that I 2 need to know. You know? 3 : When did you speak with 4 her? 5 MR. EPSTEIN: A number of times since 6 then. 7 : Okay. But when you 8 specifically talked about the conversation that 9 she had with Jeffrey, (Indiscernible 10 *00:35:18)? 11 MR. EPSTEIN: That was I don't 12 remember the exact date. But I think it was 13 just a few weeks of the death. 14 : Okay. But she didn't 15 tell you anything specifically why he contacted 16 her, or what they spoke about? 17 MR. EPSTEIN: No. 18 : No. Just that he sounded 19 upbeat? 20 MR. EPSTEIN: Yeah. He was. Yeah. 21 That's, like, she made (Indiscernible 22 *00:35:41). 23 : Okay. 24 : Was she surprised that he 25 called her? EFTA00113521  41 1 MR. EPSTEIN: I don't -. I don't know if 2 -. I don't know. To be honest with you. I 3 didn't ask her that much. She didn't say, oh, 4 shit, yeah, I didn't get any kind of reaction 5 from her. (Indiscernible *00:35:41) 6 : All right. 7 : Do you know if Jeffrey 8 changed his will leading up to August 9th? 9 MR. EPSTEIN: I was told he changed his 10 will. He did. Now, traditionally, my brother 11 and I were not in each other's wills. Because 12 I don't need his money, he don't need my money. 13 So, he changed the will, from my understanding. 14 Now, I'm not the executive of his estate. It 15 has nothing to do with his estate. The 16 executives don't even talk to me. 17 (Indiscernible *00:36:23) or anything. But 18 from what I understand, all of his assets were 19 put into a trust. Or they were supposed to be 20 put into a trust, after