EFTA00111830.pdf

1 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL JUNE 15, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 3 4 1 MR. All right. The recorder 1 name? To start, a ain, I am DO] OIG Senior 2 is on. Today is Tuesday, lune 15, 2021 and 2 if, Agent, • 3 the time is 10:08 a.m. My name is 3 4 , and I am a Senior Special Agent 4 MR. This is DOJ Special Agent 5 with the U.S. Department of Justice Office of 5 6 the Inspector General, New York Field Office. 6 : This is BOP employee, 7 And these are my credentials. 7 8 MR. Okay. 8 MR. : All right. Thank you, 9 MR. : This interview with 9 everyone. And this is an official DO] 10 Federal Bureau of Prisons employee - let me see 10 investigation surrounding the circumstances of 11 - is it Jermaine? 11 Jeffrey Epstein's death, and you are being 12 MR. : Yes. 12 asked to voluntarily provide answers to our 13 MR. , is being 13 questions. Will you agree to a voluntary 14 conducted as part of an official U.S. 14 interview with the DOJ OIG? 15 Department of Justice Office of the Inspector 15 MR...es. 16 General investigation. Today's date is - again 16 MR. : Great. We're just going 17 - June 15, 2021. This interview is being 17 to review the DOJ OIG voluntary interview form. 18 conducted at the West Side - within the West 18 I'm going to read it for the record. It says, 19 Side Administrative Building, second floor 19 United States Department of Justice Office of 20 conference room, FCI Fort Dix, New Jeri. 20 the Inspector General Warnings and Assurances 21 Also resent is DOJ OIG Special Agent 21 to Employee Requested to Provide Information on 22 and Mr. . This interview will be 22 a Voluntary Basis." "You are being asked to 23 recorded by me, Senior Special Agent 23 provide information as part of an investigation 24 . Could everyone please identify 24 being conducted by the Office of the Inspector 25 themselves for the record, and spell their last 25 General. This investigation is being conducted EFTA00111830  6 1 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 1 mind just printing your name where it says 2 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 2 Employee's Name? Sorry. 3 performance failure and security failure. This 3 MR. : All right. 4 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do 4 MR. • Right below it. 5 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary MR. Thank you, sir. And 6 action will be taken against you if you choose 6 Special Agent , can you sign that as the 7 not to answer questions. Any statements you 7 witness? 8 furnished may be used as evidence in any future 8 MR. : Yes. This is Special Agent 9 criminal proceedings, or Agency disciplinary 9 iiiiiiiiiined as a witness. 10 proceedings, or both." And there is a waiver. 10 MR. : Thank you, sir. Can you 11 It says, "I understand the Warnings and 11 hold onto that? And do you understand the OIG 12 Assurances stated above and I am willing to 12 form? 13 make a statement and answer questions. No 13 MR...es. 14 promises or threats have been made to me, and 14 MR. : Great. Before starting, 15 no pressure or coercion of any kind has been 15 I would like you place you under oath. Can you 16 used against me." You can take a look at that, 16 just raise your right hand? Mr. , do you 17 if you would like, and if you agree, you can 17 swear to tell the truth and nothing but the 18 sign where it says Employee's Signature. 18 truth durino this interview? 19 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:02:57) 19 MR. : I do. 20 copy of this. 20 MR. Thank you, sir. Can you 21 MR. : This isn't what I wanted. 21 just show me your credentials, for the record, 22 Do you need it? Thank you, sir, for signing. I 22 to make sure that -- 23 am going to sign as the signature of the Office 23 MR. : Here you go, sir. 24 of the Inspector General Specialliiiii. And I 24 MR. -- all right. For the 25 am going to print my name. Mr. , do you 25 record, I am looking at the U.S. Department of 7 8 1 Justice, Federal Bureau of Prisons credentials 1 Natchitoches, Louisiana. 2 of Mr. . It says that he is the 2 MR. : Great. And what was that 3 Discipline Hearing Officer at FCI Fort Dix in 3 Associate's decree in? 4 New Jersey. And it has a picture of him. 4 MR. It was in Social Work. 5 Thank you, sir. 5 MR. Okay. Great. And then, 6 MR...kay. 6 what year? 7 MR. : All right. And what is 7 MR. I believe it was 2012 or '13. 8 your current home address? 8 MR. Great. Thanks. Did you 9 MR. 9 have any employment prior to the BOP? 10 10 MR. : Yes. I had worked almost two 11 MR. Thank you. And what is 11 years for the Colorado Department of 12 your current cell phone number? 12 Corrections. 13 MR. : It is 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. And what is your highest 14 MR. rAs a Correctional Officer. 15 level of education? 15 And before that, I spent 11 years - almost ten 16 MR. : I have three years of 16 years - well, nine years, 11 months in the 17 college. 17 United States Arm . 18 MR. And where did you go to 18 MR. : Awesome. Thanks for your 19 college? 19 service. 20 MR. : I went to - I actually have 20 MR. InMn-hmm. 21 my Associates Degree at Northwestern State 21 MR. : When did you work as a 22 UniversitiiIIIIIIII 22 Correctional Officer for two years? 23 MR. : And where is that 23 MR. : In Colorado? 24 located? 24 MR. Yes. 25 MR. : That's going to be in 25 MR. : I believe the dates were from EFTA00111831  9 10 1 July of 2004 to November 27 or November 26 of 1 MR. Okay. Perfect. And 2 2005. 2 then, you said a Sergeant. E-4, E-S? 3 MR. Okay. Great. And then, 3 MR. E-5. 4 you said you were in the - did you say the 4 MR. E-5. All right. When 5 Army? 5 was your Enter on Duty date with the Bureau of 6 MR. Mies. 6 Prisons? 7 MR. : And what was your rank in 7 MR. : 09/27/2005. No. I'm sorry. 8 the Army? 8 11/27/2005. 9 MR. I was a Sergeant. 9 MR. Great. And when did you 10 MR. • Honorable discharge? 10 graduate from BOP training down at the Federal 11 MR. Yes. 11 Law Enforcement Training Center? 12 MR. • When you left, what was 12 MR. : I believe it was March of 13 your primiiiiiisponsibility? 13 2006. 14 MR. : Basically, at that time, I 14 MR. Okay. We don't have to 15 was a Section Sergeant, as a topographical 15 go through it. Or I guess, just briefly, I 16 surveyor. 16 mean, what positions have you held with the 17 MR. Okay. And what was that? 17 BOP? You don't have to go into each 18 Where did ou say? 18 institution. Just, like -. 19 MR. : Sir? 19 MR. : Right. I started as a five, 20 MR. . The topographical? 20 step one. I've - with more responsibility - I 21 MR. . It's a topographical surveyor 21 was promoted to through six, seven, Senior 22 22 Officer Specialist. I was also a GL-9 23 MR. : Oh, a surveyor. 23 Lieutenant. A GL-11 Lieutenant. I was the 24 MR. E.- (Indiscernible *00:07:19) 24 Deputy Captain, GL-12. And I was also a GL-13. 25 surveyor. Right. 25 And currently, I am at the GL-12 Discipline 11 12 1 Hearing Officer at FCI Fort Dix. 1 stand for? 2 MR. : All right. Great. And 2 MR. : The Metropolitan Correctional 3 is it correct that you used to work at the MCC 3 Center. 4 in New York City? 4 MR. Perfect. And located at 5 MR. : That is correct. 5 150 Park Row, New York, New York? 6 MR. : All right. And what were 6 MR. : That is correct. 7 your positions when you were at the MCC? 7 MR. Thank you, sir. As a 8 MR. : 'ACC, I was the Captain. 8 Captain, who would you consider your Supervisor 9 MR. : Okay. And from what 9 when you were at the MCC? 10 dates weriiiiiithe Captain? 10 MR. : It would be, at that point, 11 MR. : I was the Captain from 11 at that time we was transitioning. 12 September of, I believe it was third, 2018, all 12 MR. Okay. 13 the way until June 25 of 2020. 13 MR. : So, I would, normally, I 14 MR. Okay. Great. And then, 14 would answer to two people, which would be the 15 was that our first assignment as a Captain? 15 AW of Custody, which, at that time, was 16 MR. : No. That was my second. 16 17 MR. What was your first 17 MR. Okay. 18 assignment as a Captain? 18 MR. : However, we was transitioning 19 MR. : My first assignment as a 19 when that incident happened. It was 20 Captain was - I was a Deputy Captain at MDC 20 was the AW over Custody at that time. 21 Brooklyn. 21 MR. : All right. So, when you 22 MR. : Okay. And then you got 22 are talking about that time, are you talking 23 promoted, and went to MCC? 23 about August 9th and August 10th of 2019? 24 MR. : Yes. Yes. 24 MR. : That is correct. 25 MR. And what does the MCC 25 MR. Okay. So, are you aware EFTA00111832  13 14 1 of was still the AW in 1 Custody, and also, I would have conversations 2 charge of Custody at that time? 2 3 MR. : No. 3 Okay. 4 MR. . She was not? Okay. 4 : So, it would just depends on 5 MR. : No. Basically, what it was - 5 what the situation may be. So, if there was 6 again - with the areas of responsibility had 6 instances where I would run things through the 7 changed, p rifor -- 7 chain, from the AW to the Warden, and there was 8 MR. Okay. 8 times that I would take direction directly from 9 MR. -- to this incident. So, 9 the Warden. 10 that week, Ms. was going to be - 10 MR. : Okay. As far as, though, 11 even though hers responsibilities had changed 11 in this instance, if, you know, being that 12 as the AW over Custody, and Warden 12 August 9th and August 10th, I believe that the 13 N'DiayeN'Dia had appointed - or instructed - 13 first person ou contacted when ou were -- 14 that Ms. IIIII would then take over the 14 MR. : Was 15 responsibilities. But however, she was 15 MR. : -- correct. And that was 16 supposed to o on annual leave. 16 because the other AW was out. Is that what you 17 MR. Okay. 17 were sayik. 18 MR. : So, at that time, Ms. 18 MR. : My belief is that she was on 19 was actually there, as far as, 19 annual leave which was stated -- 20 she was still in that capacity when the 20 MR. : Okay. 21 incident ha ened. 21 MR. : -- that we had closed out on 22 MR. : Okay. 22 that Friday, that she would be starting annual 23 MR. : However, again, the previous 23 leave. 24 question that you asked, normally, as my 24 MR. : Okay. But the other AW 25 responsibilities, I would notify the AW over 25 was, in fact, your Supervisor at that time? 15 16 1 MR...es. 1 MR. Great. I'm just going to 2 MR. : Oka . Which ou 'ust 2 go over the report that was written in response 3 said was - you went with 3 to their conversations with you. 4 because she was on? 4 MR. Ed -hmm. 5 MR. . That's right. 5 MR. : We want to just go over 6 MR. : Okay. Have you since 6 for accuracy, as well as to fill in some gaps 7 learned anything about, like, was that not 7 that we've found, that we just need some 8 correct? 8 clarification on. 9 MR. : Well, what I realized is 9 MR. ..bsolutely. 10 that, once the incident had occurred, AW 10 MR. : So, I'm just going to 11 responded to the institution, at which time her 11 read it. And you stop me if there is anything 12 annual leave, I believe she cancelled her 12 that you find that is inaccurate. 13 annual leave, and she assumed her position as 13 MR. ..orrect. 14 the AW 14 MR. : All right. So, " 15 MR. : All right. How do you 15 began his career with the BOP in Florence, 16 spell her last name? 16 Colorado in 2005." 17 MR. : Ms. M? 17 MR. Correct. 18 MR. . Yes. 18 MR. : "In 2014, he was 19 MR. : A-D-G-E. 19 transferred to the Metropolitan Detention 20 MR. Perfect. Thank you. All 20 Center, MDC, in Brooklyn, to Captain at MCC, 21 right. So, is it correct that you were 21 his current position, where he over -". Or 22 interviewed by Agents of the FBI and the DO] 22 sorry. 23 OIG back when this instance occurred in August 23 MR. : Yeah. There's a lot missing 24 of 2019? 24 in between there. 25 MR. : That is correct. 25 MR. Yeah, yeah. EFTA00111833  17 18 1 MR. M Yeah. Right. 1 directly supervises approximately 13 2 MR. : So, it says, "In 2 Lieutenants." Does that compromise of all the 3 Brooklyn." I missed this line. It says, 3 Lieutenants? This was at the time. Was that 4 "Where he was made Deputy Captain in 2015. In 4 all the Lieutenants at the MCC? 5 2018, was promoted to Captain at MCC, 5 MR. ..orrect. 6 his current position, where he oversees 6 MR. : Okay. "And it has 7 security for the entire building." 7 approximately 125 to 135 line 8 MR. : Well, yeah. There was a 8 staff/Correctional Officers under his purview." 9 little bit missing there because, yeah, I 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. Yes. Well, you 10 entered on duty, and I started my career in 10 know, when they say that, what they understand 11 Florence. However, I left Florence in 2009. 11 is, is that, under Correctional Services, that 12 And that's when I went to Pollock. FCC 12 was probably the amount of staff that was - 13 Pollock. 13 again - in Correctional Services, as 14 MR. : Okay. 14 subordinate staff. However, my direct 15 MR. rnd then, from FCC Pollock, 15 supervision would have been over just the 13 16 from 2009, I was there to 2014. And then, from 16 Lieutenants. 17 '14, I left Pollock to go to MDC Brooklyn. And 17 MR. : Okay. There are 13 - oh, 18 then, in '18, that's when I assumed duties at 18 13 Lieutenants. Right. I thought you were 19 MCC. 19 saying GS-13. Gotcha. " also sits on 20 MR. : Okay. So, they have - 20 the Institution's Executive Staff, which also 21 yes - so, I guess you were transferred to the 21 includes the Warden. primary duty is 22 MDC in Brooklyn, 2014, and in 2015 was when you 22 to ensure that security protocols are met by 23 were promoted to Deputy Captain? 23 his Lieutenants and sub-staff, and that policy 24 MR. : That is correct. 24 guidelines are being followed, as set forth by 25 MR. Okay. It says, " 25 the BOP." 19 20 1 MR. : Correct. 1 MR. : All security protocols are 2 MR. . "Among others, is 2 followed. To ensure that inmates - or run 3 responsible for the Special Housing 3 rosters - to ensure that inmates are placed in 4 Unit Lieutenant, Lieutenant IIII." Is that 4 the correct cells, or in the proper cells. To 5 correct? 5 ensure that they're supposed to audit said 6 MR. Correct. 6 rosters, to ensure they have proper 7 MR. : "As an Administrative 7 accountabiiiiiiiiiihe inmates in the unit. 8 Lieutenant, responsible for maintaining 8 MR. : So, I guess what I was 9 paperwork, et cetera." So, when you say an 9 etting at is, like, how the SHU Lieutenant was 10 Administrative Lieutenant here, are you saying 10 IIII. Was there a specific person that was the 11 whoever was Acting in the Administrative 11 Administrative Lieutenant? 12 Lieutenant -- 12 MR. : Yes. The Administrative 13 MR. : Capacity? 13 Lieutenant at that time was 14 MR. • -- position? 14 MR. : And do you happen to know 15 MR. : No, I wasn't. Basically, 15 how to spell that last name? 16 Administrative duties. The Administrative 16 MR. . It's 17 duties falls under the appointed SHU 17 MR. : Thank you, sir. "An SIS 18 Lieutenant. The SHU Lieutenant, the appointed 18 Lieutenant responsible for paperwork." And who 19 SHU Lieutenant has certain duties that have to 19 was that? 20 be done daily, within the unit. Not just the 20 MR. : Which was the Lieutenant 21 supervision of the line staff that work the 21 (Phonetic Siiiiii:17:10). 22 unit, but also over all on running of the Unit. 22 MR. And , common 23 Meaning, that ensuring that all paperwork is 23 spelling? 24 done. 24 MR. Yes. 25 MR. Okay. 25 MR. : Okay. "And Operations In EFTA00111834  21 22 1 Activities Lieutenants". 1 MR. -- for the interview, 2 MR. : Which are on the day of the 2 just so you can - we're going to talk about 3 incident? 3 people - jiff" can reference the two. 4 MR. Yeah. And would you like 4 MR. : Right. All right. So it 5 to see the duty roster for August 9th and 5 iir shere, it would have been la 6 August 10th? 6 ivould have been the 7 MR. Hmm-mm. 7 Operations Lieutenant on Saturday, August 10, 8 MR. No? Okay. Do you know 8 2019. 9 who it was? 9 MR. And is it ME? 10 MR. : So, I believe the morning 10 MR. 11 watch Lieutenant, when that incident occurred, 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 was Lieutenant - what is her damn name? - I 12 . Perfect. And what times did she work 13 just said her name. 13 from? 14 MR. I can show you this. 14 MR. : At that time, the shift they 15 MR. : Yeah. 15 were working a different schedule. The 16 MR. So, I'm showing you a 16 schedule was, I believe it was 10:00 to 0600. 17 duty Agent roster from - or daily assignment 17 MR. : Okay. So, 10:00 p.m. on 18 roster - from Friday, August 9, 2019, as well 18 August 9th to 0600 on August 10th. 19 as one from Saturday, August 10 -- 19 MR. That is correct. 20 MR. : Right. 20 MR. : And then, I'm assuming 21 MR. -- 2019. 21 there was another Administrative Lieutenant at 22 MR. : Right. 22 the, you know, when Epstein was discovered, and 23 MR. And you can keep them in 23 I think that was a little after 6:00 a.m. 24 front of ou for the -- 24 Correct? 25 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : That is - yeah - that was the 23 24 1 - actually - the Operations Lieutenant, which 1 Lieutenants were not working on the weekends. 2 was IIII. Lieutenant IIII. He informed me - 2 MR. . Okay. 3 or I guess he became aware of the incident, I 3 MR. : They worked Monday through 4 believe, at 6:30 that morning. 4 Friday. I believe it was 7:30 to 4:00. 5 MR. : Okay. And so, I already 5 MR. : Okay. 6 asked the Operations Lieutenant. It says, "The 6 MR. ro, Lieutenant was on 7 Operations Lieutenant and the Activities 7 military - he was on leave. He had military 8 Lieutenant are responsible for day to day 8 leave because he had his monthly drill, monthly 9 operations and maintaining order for three 9 drill -- 10 shifts. And an Emergency Preparedness 10 MR. • Okay. 11 Lieutenant. A Collateral Duty Responsibility 11 MR. -- that he would attend. 12 in the event of an emergency incident, such as 12 MR. : Do you know if he was on 13 fires, bomb threats, et cetera." So, is there 13 leave both on August 9th and August 10th? Or 14 a - during these instances - was there an 14 August 10th, you said he wouldn't have worked. 15 Emergency Pre aredness Lieutenant? 15 But was on the 9th? 16 MR. : Yes. 16 MR. Mat me see here. 17 MR. Who was that? 17 MR. : And you can just say, was 18 MR. : I believe it was Lieutenant 18 he on the schedule? 19 19 MR. : Yeah. So, I mean, right 20 MR. . Lieutenant IIII? Okay. 20 here, I'm looking at the roster for Friday, 21 MR. Mm-hmm. 21 August 9th. And I believe that the SHU 22 MR. Was Lieutenant El off 22 Lieutenant post was left un-assigned for that 23 that day, thou 23 Friday. 24 MR. : Lieutenant IIII was, I 24 MR. : All right. So, that 25 believe, at that time, his schedule, the SHU 25 would just lead us to believe he was not there. EFTA00111835  25 26 1 Correct? 1 MR. : All right. " 2 MR. : That is correct. He was not 2 advised that his staff provide special 3 there, no. 3 considerations for high-profile inmates, if 4 MR. : Great. And would his 4 deemed appropriate, and designated as such. In 5 position have been, like, you know, was there 5 order to ensure an inmate is providing with 6 someone that's placed in the Acting role when 6 proper care, the facility evaluates the inmate 7 he's gones_gf_is -? 7 using several measures, including mental, 8 MR. 'I'll': Normally, due to our staffing 8 physical, medical, psychological, and sexual 9 at MCC, at that point, or at that time, we 9 assault victim, or predator assessments. Since 10 tried to ensure that, you know, looking over 10 different inmates are admitted with different 11 the roster, to try to ensure that someone was 11 criteria, a ropriate housing varies." 12 within there, the supervising unit. But again, 12 MR. : Correct. 13 due to the shortage of Lieutenants at that 13 MR. : All right. " 14 time, I had to - as monitoring, or looking at 14 interacted with inmate Jeffrey Epstein on 15 the roster - I would try to place areas of 15 approximately three occasions at MCC. All of 16 importance, so Operations Lieutenant, ensured 16 which Epstein maintained a pleasant demeanor." 17 that the Activities Lieutenants was filled. 17 MR. M Correct. 18 And at that time, that particular day, he 18 MR. : "Dunn the first 19 wasn't on the roster, or that post was left un- 19 instance, Epstein asked who he was, and 20 assigned. 20 responded by introducing himself, and 21 MR. : And that post, like you 21 explaining his position at the jail. During 22 said, isn't assigned on the weekends. 22 another instance, explained to Epstein 23 MR. : No. 23 the policy regarding meals during Attorney 24 MR. : So, Saturday. Great. 24 sessions, and made certain Epstein was 25 MR. : No, it's not. 25 accommodated with water, visits to the 27 28 1 restroom, et cetera." So, did he receive - and 1 MR. : Now, as far as food, I know - 2 I know, it's my understanding that he was, most 2 and, like I said, it's been a while - normally, 3 days, in with his Attorneys? 3 inmates do not eat while they're in visitation. 4 MR. : Yes. So, most days, from the 4 MR. : Okay. 5 time that the Attorney visitation would open, 5 MR. : They're provided water. 6 inmate Epstein was in that area, primarily, 6 They're provided to go to the bathroom. The 7 until it closed. 7 inmate, you know, is afforded the meal. 8 MR. : All right. And that's 8 However, I believe that he was offered meals 9 where it says, "Epstein spent most of the day 9 from the vendin machine. I'm not sure. 10 with his Defense Counsel, and was brought down 10 MR. : Okay. 11 as soon as the Attorney visit opened." So, 11 MR. : I can't remember as far as - 12 would that be, like, Monday through Friday, or 12 because I didn't remember there was an issue 13 Monday -- 13 with that, and I know we tried to accommodate, 14 MR. No. That's -- 14 or to address it. I just can't remember -- 15 MR. : -- that's seven days a 15 MR. Sure. 16 week? 16 MR. -- what was done. 17 MR. that's seven days a week. 17 MR. Would the Attorneys be 18 MR. : All right. So, was it 18 allowed to bring him in food? 19 almost ever day? 19 MR. : No. No, no, no, no, no. 20 MR. : Every day. 20 MR. No? 21 MR. : Okay. And was his food 21 MR. No. 22 brought to him there, then? 22 MR. Okay. 23 MR. : No. 23 MR. : No. No. No. No. Outside 24 MR. Okay. How would he 24 food would not have been allowed. 25 obtain food? 25 MR. Okay. EFTA00111836  29 30 1 MR. : So, I can't tell you if he 1 Unit Manager. 2 was actually getting a tray, during that time, 2 MR. . Okay. And who was that? 3 I can't remember. But I do remember, there 3 MR. : Which that was, I believe, 4 were conversations that - and I know we did 4 Mr. Phonetic Sp. *00:25:26) 5 something in order to ensure that the inmate 5 MR. • Right. 6 was provided some type of meal. Or whatever. 6 MR. : At which time, I, you know, I 7 I can't remember. 7 said, hello, how you doing, Mr. Epstein? And he 8 MR. : Sure. All right. That's 8 was, like, okay. So, he had asked me, and he 9 fine. As far as the, it mentions two visits. 9 said, Captain, is it okay if I get a telephone 10 Do you remember anything about the third visit 10 call? Now, mind you, we had already discussed 11 that you made with Epstein? 11 that when the inmate - we would reasonably 12 MR. : The third one. So, that 12 attempt to always facilitate a phone call for 13 night, on - that would be Friday, August 9th of 13 the inmate, especially while him being housed 14 2019, I believe I had worked that day close to 14 in the Special Housin Unit. So, I said to the 15 8:00. It was about 8:00 or so. 15 Unit Manager, Mr. , I said, Mr. 16 MR. 8:00 p.m. on August 9? 16 are you going to SHU? He said, yeah. I said, 17 MR. : 8:00 p.m. 17 well, are you going to be able to monitor the 18 MR. Okay. 18 call with the inmate? And he was, like, yeah, I 19 MR. : Correct. So, I was actually 19 got no problem with that. I said, well, I 20 on my way, and exited, you know, went and 20 don't have a problem. Just make sure that you 21 talked to the Operations and Activities 21 follow the protocols, and the protocols is, is 22 Lieutenants. You know, let them know I was 22 when that inmate is allowed to use the phone, 23 leaving for the day. And when I reached the 23 it has to be monitored by staff, and the 24 elevator on the third floor, inmate Epstein was 24 number, and who they're talking to has to be 25 being escorted out of Attorney visit by his 25 placed in a log. 31 32 1 MR. : Okay. 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. ro, I said, make sure that 2 MR. : Out line. 3 takes place. I'm good with it. So, that's 3 MR. : Sure. 4 when I got in the elevator, and I exited the 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 institution. 5 MR. : And they're not recorded 6 MR. : All riiiiiiiSo, this 6 7 conversation happened with , in front of 7 MR. : Right. 8 Mr. Epstein? 8 MR. • -- and that's why you 9 MR...es, it did. 9 said make sure that it's -- 10 MR. : Okay. And that's the 10 MR. : Yes. 11 point where - okay, so, you did authorize that 11 MR. • -- and did you -- 12 call to be made, from the SHU? 12 MR. : Correct. 13 MR...es. 13 MR. : -- did you tell him, at 14 MR. : Was there a certain line 14 all, to document what was -? 15 that they should have used? 15 MR. : Yes. I told him to ensure 16 MR. : Yes. It's a secure line. 16 that he is present, that - the protocol is, 17 You have two lines. You know, you can plug it 17 because I asked him, I said, look, I said, make 18 into the outgoing, and then, it's the jack 18 sure that you're present at the phone call. I 19 that's just for inside of the institution 19 said, make sure that it's logged. And when you 20 calls. Or you can put it into the other jack, 20 dial the numbers, the number you have to, like, 21 which allows those calls to be outgoing. 21 stay on the line and said, he says, well, I 22 MR. Would that be called a 22 want to call my Attorney. Who was your 23 legal line? 23 Attorney? So and so, and so and so. Okay. 24 MR. : Yeah. It would be just an 24 When they answer the phone, I said, this is 25 out. This would be a out, out. 25 MCC, my name is so and so. I have a call for EFTA00111837  33 34 1 Jeffrey Epstein. What is your name? And what 1 happen with that log, then? After he logged it. 2 is your can log it. 2 MR. : That phone call? 3 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Sure. 4 MR. rnd the time that it's 4 MR. Or that log? 5 logged. And then, you give the phone to the 5 MR. : Like, after he documented 6 inmate, and then you sit there while they're on 6 it. 7 the phone. 7 MR. : It would be maintained, just 8 MR. And do you know if that 8 in a log. 9 was done? 9 MR. Okay. 10 MR. Again, I don't know. 10 MR. : It wouldn't be brought for 11 MR. : You don't know? 11 anyone's review. You know? It would just be, 12 MR. : I just ensured. That's it. 12 hey, did, hey, did Epstein get a call? Yeah. I 13 If you - like I said, that's why I asked him, I 13 could tell you. So, I can pull the book. And 14 said, are you going to SHU? And are you going 14 then, I can tell you, and look, when he was 15 to be able to monitor phone calls? 15 given a call. 16 MR. But you don't know if -- 16 MR. : So, it goes into a 17 MR. He didn't say yes. 17 specific E stein file? 18 MR. -- he wrote up anything? 18 MR. : Yeah. No. It wouldn't. It 19 MR. I don't know what he did. 19 doesn't go in a file. It goes into a book. It 20 MR. Okay. 20 goes into a book for monitored calls, for all 21 MR. I just ensured that I told 21 the inmates, and legal calls. 22 him. 22 MR. : For all inmates. So, not 23 MR. IIIIII::: Sure. 23 just Epstein. It would be all -- 24 MR. What needed to be done. 24 MR. : That is correct. 25 MR. : And what would typically 25 MR. . -- inmates? Okay. 35 36 1 MR. : It would be a green logbook. 1 man, I'm good. Everything is fine. And I 2 You know, and it would have the name of the 2 said, did you have a good visit? And he said, 3 inmate, and who they called, the number, the 3 yeah. Everything is fine, Cap. I said, all 4 time. I don't know if the duration is on 4 right, man. 5 there. But it will the person who also 5 MR. : Okay. 6 monitored the call. So, you know, all that 6 MR. You know? 7 information. But it wasn't something, like, a 7 MR. : No cause for concern? 8 form that was filled out, and then it was 8 MR. : No, because every time we had 9 placed in the inmate's file. 9 that interaction, it was always pleasant. It 10 MR. : Sure. 10 was neverliiiiiiiii 11 MR. Or central file. 11 MR. : Okay. It says, " 12 MR. : Sure. 12 was made aware of the possibility that Epstein 13 MR. No. It wasn't like that. 13 would be housed at MCC in advance of Epstein's 14 MR. : And do you know if that 14 arrival. was not present when inmate 15 log in the book was filled out? 15 Epstein was admitted to the facility. Epstein 16 MR. M. don't know. 16 was thoroughly vetted to determine if he was 17 MR. : You don't know. Okay. 17 fit for general population, and was ultimately 18 When you met with Epstein on that night, how 18 placed in the Special Housing Unit. MCC places 19 was his demeanor? 19 inmates under three categories of close 20 MR. : It was fine. He was 20 supervision. One: dry cell for those at risk 21 cheerful. 21 for smuggling contraband. Two: psychological 22 MR. He was cheerful. 22 observation. And three: suicide watch." 23 MR. : You know, he didn't look 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 disheveled. He felt - because I asked him, I 24 MR. Is that all correct? 25 said, how you doing? You all right? - he said, 25 MR. : Yes. At that time, yes. EFTA00111838  37 38 1 MR. Okay. So, who made the 1 there any other secure housing units within the 2 decision to place him in the Special Housing 2 MCC? 3 Unit, specifically, and why? 3 MR. : There is only one secured 4 MR. : Okay. So, basically, the 4 housing unit. That's the SHU. 5 rationale for placement of the inmate in the 5 MR. Okay. Not -- 6 Special Housing Unit would have been a decision 6 MR. But however, we do have -- 7 ultimately made by the Warden. They would have 7 MR. -- Ten South (Phonetic 8 took the criteria of the inmate. They would 8 Sp. *00:32:04). 9 have been, like, okay, well, what's his risk? 9 MR. • -- Ten South. 10 You know, what would be the likelihood of him 10 MR. Okay. 11 being endangered if he would be placed in 11 MR. : And Ten South is for, I 12 general population? His culpability. Can he 12 believe those are for SAM inmates. And those 13 cope while being inside of a general housing 13 inmates are under a specialized monitoring, 14 unit? So, the determinations was made between 14 which comes from, I believe it's from the 15 Medical, Health Services - oh, I'm sorry - 15 Attorney General, I believe. I can't remember 16 Health Services, Psychology, and the Warden. 16 who's the person that's over it, but I believe 17 MR. And who was the Warden at 17 it was the Attorney General, or whoever, makes 18 that time? 18 the determinations for those SAMS inmates. 19 MR. : It was Mr. 19 MR. Okay. And what is SAMS 20 MR. And do you know how to 20 stand for? 21 spell that last name? 21 MR. : I believe - I can't remember. 22 MR. : It would bell- 22 MR. Okay. But is it, like, 23 MR. • Apostrophe. 23 S-A-M-S? 24 MR. -- apostrophe, 24 MR. : That is correct. 25 MR. Thank you, sir. Are 25 MR. : Okay. Like, an acronym, 39 40 1 though? 1 MCC. 2 MR. : It is an acronym. 2 MR. Okay. And then, that's 3 MR. : Okay. And that is not 3 where I meant by, is, so the executive staff 4 made by anyone at the MCC? That's made by the 4 wasn't able to -- 5 Attorney General -- 5 MR. • I don't believe so. 6 MR. W Yeah. 6 MR. • -- independently -? 7 MR. : -- is that -? Okay. 7 MR. No. We were not. 8 MR. : That's going to be - yeah. 8 MR. Okay. Were there many 9 That's - 9 inmates housed within Ten South at that time? 10 MR. 1111111111: All right. Was there any 10 MR. : No. I believe, at that time, 11 discussion of placing Epstein in one of those 11 we may have had a total of four to five. Of 12 units? 12 course, you know, we had the notorious Joaquin 13 MR. : No. 13 Guzman up there. We also had the Apple Puff 14 MR. : Could he have been placed 14 (Phonetic Sp. *00:33:38) was up there. We also 15 in one of those units? 15 had inmate - it starts with an S. I can't 16 MR. : I'm sure he could have. 16 remember his name. But basically, these are 17 MR. : But I mean, by executive 17 inmates that have made crimes against the 18 staff, or would they had to have made a call to 18 United States, which it was deemed that those 19 the -? 19 inmates would be in that Special Management 20 MR. : I believe they would have had 20 Unit, and they couldn't, of course, go to the 21 to make a s ecial concessions for the inmate. 21 general 22 MR. . Okay. 22 MR. : Was this, like, a 23 MR. : They would have to, you know, 23 terroristiiiiilof people? 24 vet him, and someone would have to approve it, 24 MR. : I would say some of them were 25 I believe, outside of the executive staff at 25 terrorists. You know, of course, you had EFTA00111839  41 42 1 Joaquin Guzman that was up there, the terrorist 1 value, or their radical ability they could be 2 king pin, drug king pin. He couldn't go on a 2 able to do - have recruitment value for, you 3 general po ulation unit. 3 know, for other inmates in the general 4 MR. : Sure. 4 population. You don't want those guys in 5 MR. : He would go - normally, guys 5 there. 6 like that would be in places where I come from, 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 before, yijigigilliike Florence. 7 MR. : But Jeffrey Epstein, you 8 MR. : Okay. 8 know, he's a multi-billionaire. 9 MR. re would be at the ADX 9 MR. : Sure. Now, as far as Ten 10 (Phonetic Sp. *00:34:19). Apopov (Phonetic Sp. 10 South. Is that one inmate per cell? 11 *00:34:21). I believe that - Apopov - I think 11 MR. : Yes. 12 that was his name, Apopov or Sopopov (Phonetic 12 MR. : And video monitored at 13 Sp. *00:34:25). These guys had made terrorist 13 all times? 14 threats against the United States, or there was 14 MR. Yes. 15 guys up there that had materials, or that was 15 MR. : Okay. So,