EFTA00063613.pdf

1 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF MICHAEL THOMAS OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL JUNE 17, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00063613  2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: MICHAEL THOMAS OTHER APPEARANCES: EFTA00063614  3 1 : The recorder is on. My 2 name is . I'm a senior 3 Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 4 Justice Office of the Inspector General, New 5 York Field Office and these are my credentials. 6 This interview with Federal Bureau of Prisons 7 employee Michael Thomas is being conducted as 8 part of an official U.S. Department of Justice 9 Office of the Inspector General investigation. 10 Today's date is June 17, 2021 and the time is 11 10:07 a.m. This interview is being conducted 12 at the Law Offices of located at 13 17 Academy Street, Suite 305, Newark, New 14 Jersey. Also present are DOJ OIG Special Agent 15 BOP employee Michael Thomas, Mr. 16 Thomas' attorney, from the Law 17 Offices of , and 18 , Union Representative and Officer 19 Specialist at the MCC. This interview will be 20 recorded by me, Senior Special Agent 21 . Could everyone please identify 22 themselves for the record and spell your last 23 name. To start again, I am DOJ OIG Senior 24 Special Agent 25 EFTA00063615  4 1 : I am DOJ OIG Special Agent 2 3 : I am 4 attorney , Law Offices of 5 6 7 , President of Local 3148. 8 MR. THOMAS: Michael Thomas, T-H-O-M-A-S. 9 : Thank you all. Mr. 10 Thomas, you are here today as a subject in this 11 DOJ OIG investigation. This DOJ investigation 12 concerns your alleged misconduct to include 13 allegations of false statements, job 14 performance failure, security failure, and 15 reporting false information. This is an 16 official DOJ OIG investigation and you are 17 being asked to voluntarily provide answers to 18 our questions. Will you agree to a voluntary 19 interview with the DOJ OIG? 20 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 21 : Thank you, sir. Now we 22 have a form here for our employees who provide 23 voluntary answers to our questions. It's the 24 U.S. Department of Justice Office of the 25 Inspector General Warnings and Assurances to EFTA00063616  5 1 Employee Requested to Provide Information on a 2 Voluntary Basis. It says: You are being asked 3 to provide information as part of an 4 investigation being conducted by the Office of 5 the Inspector General. This investigation is 6 being conducted pursuant to the Inspector 7 General Act of 1978 as amended. This 8 investigation pertains to your alleged false 9 statements, job performance failure, security 10 failure, and reporting false information. This 11 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do 12 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary 13 action will be taken against you if you choose 14 not to answer questions. Any statement you 15 furnish may be used as evidence in any future 16 criminal proceedings or agency proceedings, 17 disciplinary proceedings, or both. And 18 obviously, we have the DPA. Then there's a 19 waiver section. I understand the Warnings and 20 Assurances stated above and I am willing to 21 make a statement and answer questions. No 22 promises or threats have been made to me and no 23 pressure or coercion of any kind has been used 24 against me. Now if you want to take a look or 25 anybody - the attorney or anybody - wants to EFTA00063617  6 1 take a look. That was read verbatim. But if 2 you agree, there is a section that says 3 employee signature. And then you can just 4 print your name. 5 : Just print your name right 6 below it. 7 : Thank you, Mr. Thomas, 8 for signing. I am going to sign as the 9 signature of the Office of the Inspector 10 General Special Agent. Again, this is 11 and I'm going to print my name. 12 Special Agent , can you sign as the 13 signature of witness. 14 : This is Special Agent 15 I'm signing as signature of witness. 16 : Thank you, sir. Special 17 Agent , can you just fill in the date and 18 time and then write in the place. So the date 19 is again, 6/17/2021 and the time is 10:11 a.m. 20 Thank you. Okay. And since there's a union 21 representative present, I have a form for you 22 as well if you just want to take a look and 23 review that. I'm not going to read that out 24 loud for the record. 25 : I've read them many a EFTA00063618  7 1 times. 2 : You don't need to 3 (Indiscernible *00:05:09) all that. Thank you, 4 for signing where you said that 5 you certify that you appeared as an official 6 OIG investigative interview as a union 7 representative and was provided a copy of this 8 advisory and signing it and dating it. I am 9 going to sign where it says name of OIG special 10 agent. It actually doesn't ask for my 11 signature, so I will first print and then sign 12 next to it. I'm dating it 6/17/2021. 13 -: , is someone on 14 the line? 15 : Well I was just setting up 16 a conference so could dial in. No 17 one's there. 18 : Okay. 19 : Oh, okay. Is he going to 20 be dialing in? 21 : Yeah, he's going to join us 22 shortly. 23 : Okay. 24 : Okay. 25 : That's nothing. EFTA00063619  8 1 : So shortly, attorney 2 will be dialing in. Alright. 3 So did you understand the OIG form Mr. Thomas? 4 : Thomas. 5 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Yes I did. 6 : Great. Thank you. 7 before starting, I would like to place you 8 under oath. Can you raise your right hand 9 please? Mr. Thomas, do you swear to tell the 10 truth and nothing but the truth during this 11 interview? 12 MR. THOMAS: Yes, I do. 13 : Thank you, sir. If 14 there's anything that you don't understand or 15 any kind of questions, please just ask for me 16 to uh 17 MR. THOMAS: I surely will. 18 : Yeah. If you don't, I'll 19 rephrase it. 20 MR. THOMAS: The language where if I don't 21 understand, I will say something. 22 : Perfect. Thank you, sir. 23 Alright. So what's your current home address? 24 MR. THOMAS: 25 EFTA00063620  9 1 : Thank you., sir. And 2 what's your date of birth? 3 MR. THOMAS: 4 : Do you happen to have any 5 kind of ID on you just so we 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 7 : -- know we're talking to 8 the right person? Okay. I'm looking at a III 9 auto driver license and the name on it 10 is Michael A. Thomas and the picture does match 11 the person sitting in front of me. Okay. 12 What's your highest level of education? 13 MR. THOMAS: Some college. I completed 14 high school. 15 : Okay. How much college 16 did you have? 17 MR. THOMAS: I couldn't add to a little 18 bit. Correspondence courses when I was in the 19 military and everything like that. 20 : Okay. So was there like 21 a course of study that you -? 22 MR. THOMAS: No. 23 : No? Just required. 24 MR. THOMAS: No. Just like basic courses 25 and stuff like that. EFTA00063621  10 1 : And around when was that? 2 MR. THOMAS: Uh, 2002, 2001. I'm thinking 3 here and there. 4 : Sure. Was it all from 5 one institution? 6 MR. THOMAS: It was some online courses 7 and stuff like that that I took. 8 : Okay. Cool. While you 9 were with the military? 10 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, while I was in the 11 military. It was all done while I was in the 12 military. 13 : Perfect. And what did 14 you do prior to working with the BOP? 15 MR. THOMAS: I was at a Target - back 16 room. 17 : Okay. And how long did 18 you do that? 19 MR. THOMAS: I did that for three months 20 before I got this job here. 21 : So it was primarily the 22 military previously? 23 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, I got out of the 24 military in '06 and then I started this in '07. 25 : Great. Thank you. EFTA00063622  11 1 MR. THOMAS: Started with the BOP. Sorry. 2 : Thank you for your 3 service. When were you in the military? 4 MR. THOMAS: I started - I went in '98 to 5 2006. 6 : And what branch? 7 MR. THOMAS: Army. 8 : Army? 9 MR. THOMAS: Active duty the whole time. 10 : And when you -. Sorry. 11 MR. THOMAS: 12 : Okay. So we're, uh - the 13 attorney is getting on the phone with Mr. 14 . And with the Army, when you got out 15 of the Army, what was your rank? 16 MR. THOMAS: E4. 17 : E4 sergeant? Is that a 18 sergeant? 19 MR. THOMAS: No, that's a specialist. 20 : That's a specialist? 21 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 22 : Okay. What was your -? 23 MR. THOMAS: Highest rank attainable E5 24 (Indiscernible *00:08:42) 25 : Okay. So you got to E5 EFTA00063623  12 1 and then came back down to E4. 2 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 3 : Was it honorary 4 discharge? 5 MR. THOMAS: General discharge under 6 honorable conditions. 7 : Okay. Great. And when 8 you were in the Army, what was it that you were 9 -? 10 MR. THOMAS: My MOS? 11 : Yes. 12 MR. THOMAS: 13 : Okay. 14 MR. THOMAS: Sorry if I answered that but 15 -. 16 : No-no-no. Please. I was 17 trying to figure out the word to use. 18 MR. THOMAS: MOS. 19 : Perfect. And how long 20 have you served with the Federal Bureau of 21 Prisons? 22 MR. THOMAS: As of April 1, 14 years. 23 : Fourteen years? And what 24 was your enter on duty date? 25 MR. THOMAS: April 1, 2007. EFTA00063624  13 1 : Okay. And when did you 2 graduate from BOP training? 3 MR. THOMAS: I don't know the exact date. 4 : But you did attend? 5 MR. THOMAS: It's usually a year of 6 probationary or something like that. Oh, 7 you're talking about the training at FLETC? 8 : At FLETC. Correct. So 9 the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. 10 MR. THOMAS: November of '07. 11 : Okay. And that was for 12 correctional officer training? 13 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 14 : Perfect, sir. And when 15 and where was your first assignment with the 16 BOP? 17 MR. THOMAS: My whole career has been at 18 the MCC. 19 : Okay. That makes it 20 easy. And what positions have you held while 21 you were there? Just briefly. 22 MR. THOMAS: Correctional officer and 23 material handler specialist. 24 : Just those two? 25 MR. THOMAS: Yes. EFTA00063625  14 1 : Okay. And what does a 2 material handler specialist do? What does that 3 mean? 4 MR. THOMAS: It's a -. 5 : What are your job duties 6 and responsibilities? 7 MR. THOMAS: It's the commissary trust 8 fund. It's the trust fund in the BOP. 9 : Okay. Does that mean 10 that you handle -? 11 MR. THOMAS: You deal with different 12 positions from laundry, commissary, back room 13 supply, and that's mainly - yeah, that's mainly 14 it. 15 : Okay. 16 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 17 : And what was your grade 18 level? 19 MR. THOMAS: WS4 - WS4 Step 5 I guess. 20 : Okay. What's your 21 current cell phone number? 22 MR. THOMAS: 23 : Perfect. And we won't 24 contact you. We'll go through your attorney. 25 But it's just a question we ask. And your EFTA00063626  15 1 current email address? 2 MR. THOMAS: Uh, 3 : Thank you, sir. And when 4 did you last work at the MCC? Physically 5 present? 6 MR. THOMAS: Um, August 10th. 7 : 2019? 8 MR. THOMAS: 2019. I'm sorry. 9 : And did you work both on 10 August 9th and August 10th, 2019? 11 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 12 : Okay. And was that in 13 the SHU from 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. on both 14 days? 15 MR. THOMAS: On both days? What do you 16 mean -? Yes. Yes. Yes. 17 : So on August 9th, 18 midnight to 8:00 a.m. 19 MR. THOMAS: The night to -. 20 : Then again August 10th 21 8:00 a.m. - or 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. And 22 that was in the special housing unit? 23 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 24 : Also known as the SHU. 25 Who was your supervisor when you last worked at EFTA00063627  16 1 the MCC? Or did you have one in particular? 2 MR. THOMAS: My supervisor is 3 • • 4 MR. THOMAS: 5 : 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 7 : Great. Thank you. So 8 just briefly, overall, what training would you 9 attend while -. So I know you said you did the 10 CO training down at FLETC. But what other 11 training would you conduct while you're with 12 the BOP? 13 MR. THOMAS: That I would conduct? 14 : Yeah. Like what training 15 were you provided when you were with the BOP? 16 Like annual training -. 17 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, annual training. 18 Annual training that's usually done sometime - 19 well it last from January to sometimes March 20 from what I can remember. But that's annual 21 training. AART I think it's called. 22 : Annual Refresher 23 Training? 24 MR. THOMAS: Yes. There you go. 25 : Okay. Great. Is there EFTA00063628  17 1 any other training that they would provide? 2 MR. THOMAS: Um. 3 : Like did you ever attend 4 like SHU quarterly training or anything like 5 that? 6 MR. THOMAS: I have when I was off. So 7 yes, I've done SHU quarterly training. Yes. 8 : Okay. So would you do 9 the annual training every year? 10 MR. THOMAS: Annual training is every 11 year. Yes. 12 : And what would be the 13 last time you think you conducted SHU training? 14 SHU quarterly training? 15 MR. THOMAS: I really couldn't remember. 16 : No, that's fine. 17 Alright. We have - this is actually your 18 training records. Do you want to just -? I'm 19 not going to ask you like to certify that these 20 things are you know - it's just to look at it 21 and say for the most part, does that look like 22 the training that you conducted. It shows from 23 the most recent to -. To the uh, through the 24 past. 25 MR. THOMAS: Are these annual refresher EFTA00063629  18 1 training courses or -? 2 : This is just like your 3 training record. We ask like hey, can we have 4 a BOP employee's training record. They print 5 something like this out which just shows that 6 like on these dates were the dates that you 7 completed training. So it looks like you 8 completed the last annual refresher training on 9 4/5, which is - this is the annual refresher 10 training course syllabus. This is the sign-in 11 sheet. So I believe that would be the last 12 time that you conducted your annual refresher 13 training. And like for instance I believe that 14 would be -- 15 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 16 : -- your name and would 17 that be your signature next to it? 18 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 19 : Okay. Great. So just 20 point being, the last time you did conduct 21 annual refresher training in April of 2019. 22 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 23 : Awesome. Any time I 24 provide you something, I'm just going to ask 25 for you to initial and date it just so that EFTA00063630  19 1 there's no confusion of what actually was 2 provided to you. And what you actually looked 3 at. And it's not - not certifying to the 4 accuracy of this. It's just certifying that 5 this is what I showed you. 6 MR. THOMAS: Any particular place? 7 : Up top would be great. 8 MR. THOMAS: Sign or initial? 9 : Just initial and date. 10 So again, it's 6/17/21. So I'm going to take 11 that this is not supposed to be connected. I'm 12 going to take just your training records out of 13 this because they've got a lot of your daily 14 assignments in here and stuff. 15 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 16 : This was all supposed to 17 be attached to that. So what you'll see is 18 just so that we're on the same page is just all 19 the way from 2007 up to '08, '09, 2019. 20 : And when you say training, 21 these were actual classes? 22 : It's just what they have 23 in the BOP system. Every time he conducts a 24 training, they log it in so they can keep a 25 record of what training individuals conducted. EFTA00063631  20 1 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 2 : And for this, the main 3 point for this was that again, you did take the 4 annual refresher training in April of 2019. 5 Any questions on that? 6 MR. THOMAS: No. 7 : Any concerns? 8 MR. THOMAS: Nope. 9 : Great. Thank you, sir. 10 Can you just kind of go through and find the 11 Daily Schedule? There we go. His roster would 12 be in there. Alright. And at that annual 13 refresher training, like just roughly what do 14 you recall that you had learned there? 15 MR. THOMAS: It's a bunch of different 16 classes. 17 : Like ethics. Correct? 18 MR. THOMAS: It goes from somebody 19 speaking to somebody putting something up on 20 the teleprompter and then you're reading off 21 it's a variety of classes depending on how the 22 instructor at that time would present the 23 class. 24 : Okay. Great. Let me 25 see. So just to bring us back to this. It EFTA00063632  21 1 looks like the way that the BOP system is - 2 this report that I just showed you. It looks 3 like on 4/5 there's a ton of different classes. 4 And that just looks like probably what the 5 annual refresher training covered. It would be 6 like ethics, infectious disease, international 7 security, key control, air spray, prison rape, 8 report writing, self-defense, Weapons of Mass 9 Destruction. 10 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. But at different 11 times. 12 : Yeah. 13 MR. THOMAS: They're a bunch of different 14 classes. 15 : Perfect. Yeah. Awesome. 16 And did they ever, at the MCC, did they ever 17 provide you with like post orders and things 18 like that? You know like -. 19 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Post orders. 20 : Post orders and their 21 guidance and polices and things. 22 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 23 : Okay. Awesome. Is there 24 something that when they provided you did they 25 say that you had to review them or they just EFTA00063633  22 1 give them to you? How does that work? 2 MR. THOMAS: They're posted on every 3 housing unit. And -. 4 : They're all -. So when 5 you go to a housing unit, the orders are 6 actually in there? 7 MR. THOMAS: No. They're in a book. 8 : They're in a book? 9 MR. THOMAS: One of those books. 10 : Okay. And do they ask 11 you to like review them or how -? I'm just 12 wondering how MCC goes about it. What do they 13 do with making sure their correctional officers 14 know what the policies and procedures are in 15 their institution? 16 MR. THOMAS: You have to sign them when 17 you go to You're supposed to sign them when 18 you go to a post. 19 : Okay. So like if, for 20 instance -. 21 MR. THOMAS: It's on your own to review 22 them and everything like that. 23 : I got you. So have you 24 ever been provided, reviewed, and signed the 25 special housing unit order posts? EFTA00063634  23 1 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 2 : Okay. Do you remember - 3 would that be like every time you're in there 4 or would that be like initial time? Or how 5 does that work? 6 MR. THOMAS: No. It's If I'm not 7 mistaken, I think it's just to whenever you go 8 in there. The one time you go in there, it's - 9 10 : So like the first time? 11 MR. THOMAS: Every quarter you have to, if 12 I'm not mistaken, you have to sign it. 13 : Alright. 14 MR. THOMAS: Every quarter. So like if 15 you go in there between February to April. The 16 first initial time you go in there, you sign 17 it. And that was it. It's not something you 18 sign every day. 19 : Right. But like for 20 instance in 2019, would you have been provided 21 it and had to sign it? 22 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Yes. 23 : Okay. 24 MR. THOMAS: It definitely had to be in 25 there somewhere. EFTA00063635  24 1 : And you did? 2 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure - . I don't know. 3 : Okay. 4 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 5 : But you have been 6 provided 7 MR. THOMAS: I have signed them before 8 yes. But I don't know if I (Indiscernible 9 *00:18:34). 10 : Sure. No problem. What 11 is the BOP of MCC policy on conducting counts 12 and rounds? Just broadly speaking. What you're 13 like sentence or two. 14 MR. THOMAS: My interpretation of it? I 15 don't. 16 : Your understanding of 17 let's start with rounds. What are you supposed 18 to do with rounds at the MCC? And we can even 19 move it directly to the special housing unit so 20 we don't get confused. 21 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 22 : In the special housing 23 unit, how are you supposed to conduct a round? 24 MR. THOMAS: You're supposed to conduct 25 the rounds every 30 minutes not at the same EFTA00063636  25 1 time but roughly about every 30 minutes. 2 : So it's every 30 minutes 3 like -. 4 MR. THOMAS: Not every 30 minutes on the 5 hour or anything like that. Try to -. 6 : So like a 30 to 40=minute 7 gap. There's like a 10-minute I guess window 8 that you're supposed to conduct it within every 9 30 minutes. Is that right? So it's not 10 exactly like -. 11 MR. THOMAS: It's not exactly -. 12 : 8:00, 8:30, 9:00. 13 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. It's not exactly 8:00, 14 8:30. Just every 30 minutes. So if you go at 15 1:22, then -- 16 : Sure. 17 MR. THOMAS: -- you should go at sometime 18 between 1:52 or whatever the case may be. It's 19 just every 30 minutes. 20 : And is that for a whole 21 24-hour day? Every 30 minutes? 22 MR. THOMAS: Yes. For every 24-hours. 23 Yes. 24 : Okay. So there's no like 25 you don't have to do it from this time to that EFTA00063637  26 I time. 2 MR. THOMAS: No. It's for a 24-hour day. 3 : And how do you conduct a 4 round? What are you supposed to do when you 5 conduct a round in the SHU? 6 MR. THOMAS: It depends on the time 7 period. 8 : Can you just explain to 9 that a little bit? 10 MR. THOMAS: Well if you're just walk 11 around. 12 : Do you -? 13 MR. THOMAS: And look in the glass. 14 : Are you supposed to be 15 able to see a person and make sure that they're 16 there? 17 MR. THOMAS: You're supposed to see a 18 person and make sure they're there. 19 : And alive and well? 20 MR. THOMAS: Ugh, see human flesh and 21 everything like that. Yes. 22 : Okay. And that they're 23 not in distress or need anything? 24 MR. THOMAS: That they're not -? 25 : They're not in distress EFTA00063638  27 1 or need anything? 2 MR. THOMAS: Under distress and -. Yes. 3 : Okay. And what is a 4 count to your understanding? A cell count. Or 5 an inmate count. In the special housing unit. 6 MR. THOMAS: An institution count? 7 : No. What's the - so when 8 you're working in the special housing unit, do 9 you not have to do a count on the weekdays from 10 4:00 p.m., 10:00 p.m., 12:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m., 11 5:00 a.m. -- 12 MR. THOMAS: You're doing the institution 13 count. The standard - it's a BOP count. It's 14 an institution count - well I phrase it as an 15 institution count. 16 : So how do you - when 17 you're in the SHU, how do you conduct a count 18 though? 19 MR. THOMAS: Same way you do a round. 20 : Oh. 21 MR. THOMAS: So you just walk around, 22 verify live tissue and everything like that. 23 And you see a person. 24 : Are you supposed to count 25 the numbers this time though? So as opposed to EFTA00063639  28 1 just going - in a round, I'm assuming you don't 2 actually call out the numbers and certify a 3 certain number. You just go through and make 4 sure everybody's okay. With a count, is it - 5 you have to -? 6 MR. THOMAS: In a count, you call out the 7 numbers. And in a round you just verify. 8 : Okay. And then what do 9 you do after you get the numbers in the special 10 housing unit? 11 MR. THOMAS: Tally it up and put it on a 12 piece of paper. 13 : Okay. Like a count slip? 14 MR. THOMAS: The count slips get time on 15 the count slips. 16 : Okay. Great. And were 17 you provided training on conducting rounds and 18 counts at MCC? 19 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 20 : Okay. When would have 21 you received that training? During the annual 22 refresher training? Annual SHU training? 23 MR. THOMAS: Annuals yes. Annual 24 refresher training. And SHU training. Either 25 or. EFTA00063640  29 1 : Okay. So any other 2 training they would provide on that or are they 3 the two primary times you would get that? 4 MR. THOMAS: That's the two primary times. 5 : Okay. During your time 6 at the MCC, how often would you be assigned to 7 the special housing unit? 8 MR. THOMAS: It depends if it was for 9 overtime. Well besides when, just, well, 10 assigned to be, just assigning for overtime. 11 : So whenever you would 12 conduct overtime you would be there? Or just - 13 ? 14 MR. THOMAS: Well if it was open and 15 that's what was open. Yeah. That's what it 16 would be. 17 : So in your - since 2007 18 through 2019, did you do it fairly regularly? 19 MR. THOMAS: Fairly regularly. I mean -. 20 : So you're pretty familiar 21 with -? 22 MR. THOMAS: I'm familiar with both from 23 2007 to 2000 I haven't been a correctional 24 officer that whole time. 25 : Sure. EFTA00063641  30 1 MR. THOMAS: I was if I'm not mistaken, I 2 got the material handler position in 2010 or 3 2012 - something in between that time frame? 4 : So I guess from 2007 from 5 the time that you -- 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 7 : You would do it as like 8 as a quarterly posted bid? 9 MR. THOMAS: Oh I never did it as a - I 10 can't recall ever doing it as a 11 : Okay. 12 MR. THOMAS: I've done SHU more than a few 13 times. 14 : Yeah. 15 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 16 : So point being is you're 17 familiar with the way the SHU is operated? 18 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I'm familiar with how 19 everything goes in the SHU. 20 : Alright. Awesome. So 21 aside from doing the counts and rounds, what 22 other training would they provide you in order 23 to make sure that you were prepared to work in 24 the SHU? Would they provide like suicide 25 prevention training? Things like that? EFTA00063642  31 1 MR. THOMAS: If I'm not mistaken, that's 2 on the ART. If I'm not mistaken, that's on the 3 ART. 4 : Suicide? Is on the ART? 5 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. It's one of the 6 courses in ART. 7 : Okay. What is? The 8 course in ART? I'm sorry, I'm just trying to 9 10 MR. THOMAS: I really couldn't tell you 11 the exact name of the course or anything like 12 that. 13 : What you're saying is ART 14 has a SHU course? Is that what you're saying? 15 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. It has -. No. I'm 16 saying it has what you just said a suicide 17 prevention course. I'm sure it's something 18 like that in ART. 19 : Oh, okay. But I was 20 trying to use suicide prevention as like an 21 example of a training that you're received to 22 be able to work in the SHU. What I'm asking is 23 like -. To make sure I could say -. 24 MR. THOMAS: No. I don't think that's an 25 actual course to work on the SHU - to work EFTA00063643  32 1 specifically with the SHU. It's just an actual 2 course that they provide at ART. It's not 3 specific to just one housing unit. It's just 4 an annual refresher like -. 5 : SO that's - that specific 6 suicide. So I guess what I'm asking is, what 7 training did they provide to you to make sure 8 you could work in the SHU? Like - or. Let's 9 put it this way. During the SHU quarterly 10 training, what type of training would they 11 provide to you? 12 MR. THOMAS: I really don't remember at 13 all. 14 : You don't remember. 15 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember often. 16 : No. That's totally fine. 17 MR. THOMAS: Just regular SHU training. 18 : But you have received the 19 suicide prevention training though at the MCC 20 annual refresher training? 21 MR. THOMAS: At ART. 22 Okay. And what just very 23 briefly, what types of things would they teach 24 you at the suicide prevention training? 25 MR. THOMAS: Oh. Um. I'm trying - um. EFTA00063644  33 1 It's just training like I don't know what's 2 specific with the training. 3 : Sure. 4 MR. THOMAS: It's a um. They tell you how 5 many happens in a year or in a quarter or 6 something like that. I remember that they tell 7 you cases of how people committed suicide. 8 Sometimes it's signs to watch for suicide. Um. 9 That's basically all I can remember with that. 10 I don't' remember the training exactly. 11 : Sure. That's fine. Now 12 as you said, you worked from 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 13 a.m. on both August 9th and August 10th, 14 correct? In the SHU? 15 MR. THOMAS: August - well it's August 16 10th I think. If I'm not mistaken it's -. 17 : But August 9th and August 18 10th you did 8:00 a.m. till - 19 MR. THOMAS: No. 20 : I'm sorry. I mean 12 21 a.m. to 8 a.m. on both days. 22 MR. THOMAS: No. Not both days. 23 MR. THOMAS: See this really has me 24 confused. If let's say the shift started at 25 12:00. Usually the shift starts at 0001. EFTA00063645  34 1 : Correct. 2 MR. THOMAS: So if I came in, I came in on 3 the 9th, but the shift didn't start until 4 midnight. It's from midnight to eight in the 5 morning. 6 : Right. So what I'm 7 saying is midnight on August 9th. So you know 8 9 MR. THOMAS: Which is August 10th. 10 : You probably got there on 11 August 8th. 12 MR. THOMAS: No-no-no. So I didn't work 13 . 14 : So here's your daily 15 assignment roster. I just want to make sure. 16 So August 10th, August 9th. It says that you 17 were in the SHU both days. 18 MR. THOMAS: Okay. So I do -. 19 : I thought we talked about 20 that earlier. I just wanted to make sure. So 21 at the start of this interview, we talked about 22 -. 23 MR. THOMAS: Okay. So I did SHU. I 24 didn't' recall that I did SHU two days in a 25 row. EFTA00063646  35 1 : Right yeah. 2 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 3 : So I don't think you kind 4 of called out maybe the two days leading up but 5 you still did your overtime shift. 6 MR. THOMAS: These are all overtime shifts 7 for me. 8 : Yeah, I know. 9 MR. THOMAS: None of this is regular shift 10 for me. This is all overtime for me. 11 : Okay. Great. So just 12 the point being I just wanted to make sure you 13 did work there on both August 9th and August 14 10th from that midnight to 8:00 a.m. shift. 15 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Okay. Yes. 16 : Awesome. Just because I 17 presented this to you. DO you mind just 18 initialing and dating it? Does that appear to 19 be your daily schedule for it looks like it 20 started back on June 29, 2019 up until 21 8/10/2019. 22 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. This is not a daily 23 schedule for me. This is all overtime. As you 24 can see, it's all overtime. 25 : Sorry. The daily EFTA00063647  36 1 assignments for overtime. 2 MR. THOMAS: For overtime. Yeah. These 3 are all -. 4 : They're all your overtime 5 shifts. 6 MR. THOMAS: These are all - this is not 7 my daily -. 8 : Sure. 9 MR. THOMAS: So it's just all overtime. 10 : And as you mentioned, 11 that's why it says the number of times in here 12 where it's the SHU. 13 MR. THOMAS: It's the SHU and internal 14 mostly. 15 : Right. Because they were 16 overtime shifts working in the SHU. 17 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 18 : Thank you for that 19 clarification. Thanks. And what are your 20 overall duties and responsibilities when you 21 are assigned to the SHU? 22 MR. THOMAS: Maintain the count of 23 inmates. Make sure the inmates are fed. 24 Depending on what shift you're referring to, 25 take over a shift, make sure they get their EFTA00063648  37 1 showers. Um. Make sure they're counted and 2 that's basically it. 3 : Okay. And are there any 4 special requirements for inmates who are 5 assigned to the SHU? 6 MR. THOMAS: Not that I know of. No. 7 : So are inmates that are 8 assigned to the SHU -. Unless they have some 9 classification where they could be hurt by 10 another cellmate, are they all supposed to have 11 cellmates? 12 MR. THOMAS: Classification. Like I don't 13 know if they still - some if I can recall, some 14 a cell and rec alone. Maybe they were in a 15 fight and they, what's it called. When they 16 keep away from all inmates. Um. But other 17 than that some could be cell rec alone. 18 : So for the most part, I 19 should say, are inmates in the SHU supposed to 20 have a cellmate? 21 MR. THOMAS: That's not -. I don't know. 22 : My understanding was that 23 they're all supposed to have a cellmate unless 24 they meet some kind of a criteria like they're 25 a certain type of an inmate who would be harmed EFTA00063649  38 1 by another cellmate. Is that not correct? 2 MR. THOMAS: I don't -. 3 : You're not sure? 4 MR. THOMAS: I'm not sure. 5 : Fair enough. No problem. 6 Have you ever received training for medical 7 emergencies with inmates? 8 MR. THOMAS: In the ART. 9 : In ART? 10 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 11 : Were you also an 12 instructor? 13 MR. THOMAS: No. I've never instructed. 14 : You've never been an 15 instructor? Never like a CPR instructor or 16 anything like that? 17 MR. THOMAS: No. No I'm not a CPR 18 instructor. 19 : Okay. Alright. So for 20 medical emergencies, the ART is pretty much 21 when they cover that? Do they cover that also 22 during SHU training? Medical emergencies for 23 inmates? 24 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. No. I don't 25 think so. EFTA00063650  39 1 : You're not sure. 2 MR. THOMAS: I don't think so. 3 : Like you got at annual 4 training? 5 MR. THOMAS: The annual training. 6 : Alright. Who is or was 7 inmate Jeffrey Epstein reg number 76318-054? 8 MR. THOMAS: An inmate at MCC. 9 : Okay. Do you recall when 10 Epstein was housed at the MCC? Does July 6, 11 2019 through August 10, 2019 sound familiar? 12 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember when he 13 first got there. But I don't remember when 14 exactly he first got there. 15 : So these we just - this 16 is just that overtime roster. When it looks 17 like you were assigned to the SHU pretty 18 regularly from 7/11/2019 to 8/10/2019. 19 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 20 : When you were there, was 21 he in the SHU? 22 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 23 : Okay. 24 MR. THOMAS: Sometimes. 25 : I'm assuming not the EFTA00063651  40 1 whole time. 2 MR. THOMAS: Not -. 3 : Because I think he was on 4 suicide watch. But when you were there he was 5 - you know him from being in the SHU though? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I've seen him before in 7 the SHU yes. Absolutely. 8 : Okay. Perfect. Do you 9 know why Epstein was assigned to the SHU? 10 MR. THOMAS: No. 11 : No? They never told you 12 why? 13 MR. THOMAS: No. 14 : Okay. Was it high- 15 profile? For suicide? Safety concerns? 16 Anything like that? 17 MR. THOMAS: It could have been a number 18 of reasons that, his case was high-profile, 19 whatever the case may be. 20 : Okay. And was Epstein 21 assigned to the SHU on both August 9th and 22 August 10th, 2019? 23 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 24 : Okay. And we kind of 25 just covered this, but do you know how long he EFTA00063652  41 1 was assigned to the SHU? Again, I believe it 2 was July and August aside from those 3 timeframes. Correct? 4 MR. THOMAS: I really don't know. 5 : Yeah. That's fine. What 6 was Epstein's routine while he was assigned at 7 the SHU? 8 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 9 : Because you did the 10 overnight shift, I can understand that. So are 11 you aware that like during the day he would 12 meet with his attorneys every day? And then he 13 would be - so from basically 8:00 a.m. until 14 like 7:00 p.m. or 8:00 p.m. he was? 15 MR. THOMAS: I honestly really don't know. 16 : You don't even know. So 17 when you worked in the SHU was it always that 18 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. shift? In the SHU? 19 MR. THOMAS: Well I mean I'm sure I have 20 some evening watch ones. I don't know if I 21 have some evening watch or not. But I'm sure 22 I've done evening watch or anything like that 23 but I didn't look exactly at that. Maybe 24 that's all morning watch. This is all morning 25 watch. Oh that's day watch internal. EFTA00063653  42 1 : So these like for July 2 and August? 3 MR. THOMAS: It's all yeah. This is all 4 morning watch. 5 : So they would all be from 6 12:00 a.m.? 7 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. That's all 12:00 a.m. 8 : And how is that 9 identified as that -? 10 MR. THOMAS: Oh. Right here where you see 11 MW is for morning watch. They say DW is for 12 day watch. 13 : Okay. 14 MR. THOMAS: But it's all morning. 15 : So all morning watch 16 while Epstein was assigned to the SHU. 17 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 18 : Okay. Cool. Now did you 19 ever have any communication with Epstein during 20 his stay at the MCC? 21 MR. THOMAS: One particular time. 22 : Can you tell me about 23 that particular time? 24 MR. THOMAS: He was on suicide watch and I 25 was watching him on suicide watch. EFTA00063654  43 1 : Oh you actually watched 2 him when he was on suicide watch?