EFTA00061927.pdf

1 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL OCTOBER 13, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00061927  2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE EFTA00061928  3 1 : How are you? 2 : Good. 3 : Hey. Thanks for taking the 4 time. I also have Senior Special Agent 5 on the line also. 6 : Okay. 7 : Hi, sir. How're you 8 doing? 9 : Good. Good. 10 : Okay. , thank you 11 very much for taking the time out of your day - 12 - 13 : Yeah. 14 : -- to speak with me. 15 : Right. 16 : As I mentioned to you 17 yesterday, my name is . And I am 18 a Special Agent with the Department of Justice, 19 Office of the Inspector General. 20 : All right. 21 : Also on the phone is DOJ/OIG 22 Senior Special Agent . As I 23 believe you are aware, we - the OIG is 24 conducting an investigation into the death of 25 Epstein, and -- EFTA00061929  4 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : -- the circumstances 3 surrounding his death. 4 : Okay. 5 : And the core of our 6 investigation is related to job performance 7 failure and security failure of BOP employees 8 who worked at the MCC. 9 : Okay. 10 : Also, as I believe you 11 already are aware, this is a voluntary 12 interview. And you do not have to answer any 13 of our questions. 14 : Right. 15 : And in addition, this 16 interview is being recorded, as all of our 17 interviews are recorded, as required under this 18 investigation. 19 : Correct. 20 : All of that okay, and do you 21 have any questions? 22 : No. 23 : Okay. Okay. Great. Thank 24 you. Is your name , or III 25 EFTA00061930  5 1 : No. III 2 3 • 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : And the last name is spelled, 6 7 : That is correct. 8 : I understand that you are 9 currently retired from the BOP. Is that 10 correct? 11 : Yes. 12 : When did you retire? 13 : December of, I mean, 2019. 14 : December 2019. Okay. How 15 long did you work for the BOP? 16 : May of '92. So, whenever 17 that is. I guess short, 27, 28. 27 years. 18 : Wow. And what was your 19 position when you retired? 20 : A Regional Direction. 21 : How long were you the 22 regional director for? 23 : So, it's '19. I think it was 24 September of '18, maybe. I don't know exactly, 25 but it was somewhere in that timeframe. EFTA00061931  6 1 : So, about a year? 2 : A year. A year and a half. 3 : And you were the regional 4 director in August 2019 then? 5 : Correct. 6 : What did your duties as 7 regional director entail? 8 : Oversighted of the prisons, 9 the facilities in the northeast region. 10 : And did this northeast region 11 also have oversight over the MCC? That's the 12 Metropolitan Correctional Center. 13 : Yes. Everything in the 14 northeast. Including the MCC. 15 : So, who reported to you 16 directly from the prisons? 17 : The warden. 18 : Okay. When we started our 19 investigation, we actually obtained a copy of 20 after-action report that you were apparently 21 off reviewing. Do you recall the after-action 22 report, in regards to inmate Epstein? 23 : You know, I completely forgot 24 there even was one until you said there was 25 one. EFTA00061932  7 1 : Do you - and I know you 2 forgot - do you recall being part of it, 3 participating in that at all? 4 : No. I don't. The regional 5 director wasn't involved in the after-action. 6 They just finalize the report. 7 : Okay. So, you had -. Do you 8 recall reviewing the report? 9 : I didn't even recall there 10 was one. So, no. 11 : Okay. Well, some of our 12 questions are based on the fact of the after- 13 action report. So, I will 14 : Okay. 15 : -- speaking to the fact that 16 you don't recall it, I will go passed it. 17 : That's fine. 18 : And I will go through the 19 incidents, and go through - if you recall - any 20 part of it. 21 : Sure. 22 : Do you recall an incident 23 involving Epstein and inmate 24 on July 23rd, 2019? 25 : I don't recall the incident. EFTA00061933  8 1 I know that there was a previous incident. I 2 don't know who the cellmate was. I mean, to 3 say I recall, that's what I told you yesterday, 4 for me to say I recall anything is, I don't 5 want to say I recall because it's been two and 6 a half years. To say I recall is inappropriate 7 just to use that term, because no, I don't 8 recall. I don't remember the incident. I know 9 there was something with him and another 10 cellmate. Whether there was an assault, or 11 another suicide attempt. But to say I recall 12 what it was, no, I don't. 13 : Okay. And the incident was 14 basically Mr. Epstein was found with a rope 15 around his neck. 16 : Okay. 17 : And he claimed that he was 18 assaulted by inmate 19 claims that Epstein tried to hang himself, and 20 21 : Yeah. 22 : -- is saying they notified 23 the C.O.s that -- 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : -- that Mr. Epstein tried to EFTA00061934  9 1 hang himself. Does that sound like -? 2 : That all sounds legitimate. 3 I mean, that all sounds legitimate. Yeah. 4 : In terms of selecting 5 as Epstein's cellmate, do you know 6 how that selection was made? Were you involved 7 in that? 8 : I couldn't say that I 9 remember that. No. And typically, what I can 10 say is, typically, a regional director would 11 not be involved in the cellmate selection of 12 any inmate. 13 : Okay. And being that Mr. 14 Epstein, with the high-profile status of his, 15 do you remember if Warden reached out 16 to you, to discuss the cellmate assignments, 17 anything like that with you? 18 : I don't recall that. No. 19 I'm not saying he did or didn't. I just don't 20 recall it. I don't know why we -. I wouldn't 21 treat him any different than any other inmate. 22 : Okay. And being that you 23 don't recall, my next question was going to be, 24 did you provide any guidance to MCC Warden 25 , or BOP staff, regarding -- EFTA00061935  10 1 No. 2 -- (Indiscernible *00:05:49). 3 I don't even recall - I don't 4 recall ever discussing it. 5 : Okay. 6 : I'm not saying it didn't 7 happen. But I don't recall it. 8 : Okay. It is our 9 understanding that following the July 23rd 10 incident, Epstein was placed on suicide watch. 11 Then on psychological observation. On July 12 30th, he was removed from suicide watch with 13 slash psych observation, and placed back in the 14 SHU. Is that correct? 15 : That sounds correct. 16 : Was your office consulted 17 when the decision was made, being in regards to 18 Epstein being moved back to the SHU? 19 : Again, I can't tell you what 20 -. I have no clue. 21 : Okay. 22 : You're talking two and a half 23 years ago. 24 : Understood. 25 : Yeah. EFTA00061936  11 1 : Did you or your - you're 2 saying that it, being the two and a half years 3 ago, you don't recall, you yourself do not 4 recall providing any instructions to Warden 5 , or to any MCC staff in regards to 6 Epstein? You said it was (Indiscernible 7 *00:06:52)? 8 : No. No. I'm saying I don't 9 - I'm not saying whether I did or didn't - I'm 10 saying I don't remember that far back, whether 11 I did or didn't. I'm not saying it didn't 12 happen. But I'm not saying it did. Again, 13 like I told you yesterday, for me to sit here 14 and have a conversation about someone two and a 15 half years ago, I can't tell you what happened 16 because I don't remember. 17 : I see. I mean, being the 18 fact that, you know, this is such a big 19 incident, with all the press, and all the 20 issues 21 : Well, that is, I mean, that 22 is I know you're doing your job. But let's 23 be real. This is a political -. I mean, there 24 was a dozen suicides that year, and I can't 25 recall anything about the others, either. But EFTA00061937  12 1 there is no investigation into the other ones. 2 So, obviously -- 3 : Yeah. 4 -- there is a reason they're 5 investigating this one and not the others. So, 6 for me to sit here and have an interview about 7 a situation that was two and a half years ago, 8 I don't recall details about this one, but I 9 don't recall details about the other dozen or 10 two dozen, either. 11 : Okay. I see. I'm going to 12 keep going on, and -- 13 : That's fine. 14 -- let me know if there is 15 any parts to this that you recall. If yes, you 16 can provide -- 17 : Sure. 18 : -- did you, your office, or 19 anyone at the Metropolitan Correctional Center, 20 as far as you recall, receive any recalls, or 21 was anyone contacted by the lawyers or judges, 22 asking for Epstein to be removed from suicide 23 watch, or psychological observation? 24 : I don't remember anything 25 about that. I mean, I don't know that they EFTA00061938  13 1 would be calling judges and lawyers. They 2 would be calling the institution anyway, not 3 the region. 4 : Okay. And you haven't heard 5 anything about them calling the institution? 6 : I'm not saying they didn't. 7 I just don't recall that. 8 : Okay. There are a few rumors 9 that, around, stating that, hey, listen, the 10 judge or attorneys actually reached out, asking 11 for Epstein to be removed out of the 12 psychological observation and placed back in 13 the SHU. And that's the, recently asked that 14 question. 15 : Okay. And it may be true. 16 I'm not saying it's not. I just can't sit here 17 and tell you two and a half years ago, or two 18 years later, whether that is true or not. 19 : Okay. And it is our 20 understanding that, after Epstein was placed 21 back in the SHU, psychology recommended that 22 Epstein be housed with a cellmate. Is that 23 correct? 24 : Well, that is for any inmate. 25 So, I would say yes. EFTA00061939  14 1 : Okay. So -- 2 : It's, like, it's been on -. 3 Yeah. That's standard procedure. 4 : Okay. Do you know who made 5 the decision that inmate would be 6 Epstein's cellmate? 7 : No, I don't. That would be a 8 local decision at the facility. 9 : And you also was not involved 10 in that decision? 11 : If they were, I wasn't aware 12 of it, or don't recall it being so. 13 : Okay. If Epstein was 14 required to have a cellmate, who is ultimately 15 responsible to make sure that all the SHU staff 16 were aware of this requirement? 17 : Who is ultimately 18 responsible? 19 : Yeah. 20 : I mean, because a lot of 21 people are responsible for that. What do you 22 mean "ultimately"? Like, the last person in 23 the line? 24 : The last person in line 25 ultimately responsible, in terms of making sure EFTA00061940  15 1 that every C.O. -- 2 : Well, I mean -- 3 -- (Indiscernible *00:10:02). 4 . Before 5 we go on, make -- 6 : Yes. 7 : -- make sure you are -- 8 : Yes. 9 : -- make sure you are 10 addressing the findings that were in that 11 report. I understand that doesn't 12 remember the specific report, but he may 13 remember some of these findings. That might 14 help jog his memory. So, don't skip over those 15 parts in the list of -- 16 : Okay. 17 : -- questions. 18 : Okay. 19 : I'm sorry. Who's speaking? 20 : I'm sorry. This is 21 Senior Special Agent . The 22 other individual -- 23 : Oh. 24 : -- who had -- 25 : Thank you. EFTA00061941  16 1 : I just wanted to -- 2 : Yeah. 3 : -- make sure that 4 -- 5 : No. 6 : -- here knew -- 7 : Appreciate it. 8 : -- it will help you, I 9 think, to help recall, rather than just to jump 10 into those questions. 11 : Okay. I apologize. I'm 12 going to read those questions, too, because 13 these are questions that we have on the after- 14 action report. As Senior Special Agent 15 mentioned, that this might actually help jog 16 your memory. So, let me read that out to you, 17 some of the stuff that was put in the, 18 information that was put in that -- 19 : Okay. 20 -- after action report, and 21 let me know if that helps. Let's take a step 22 back. In that email to the warden, dated post 23 incident, "The supervisory staff attorney 24 reported details of a conversation with inmate 25 Epstein's attorneys. Inmate Epstein's EFTA00061942  17 1 attorneys requested he be housed in a single 2 cell. The staff attorney stated, `Inmate 3 Epstein could not be housed alone due to 4 previous suicide attempts and gestures.'" Do 5 you recall that? 6 : That was an email I sent to 7 someone? 8 : No, no. It was a -. It was 9 an email that was included inside the after- 10 action report. 11 : Now, and I'm sorry, 12 , that was probably, I just meant where 13 we were left off. already 14 answered, saying that it was protocol, you 15 know, standard operating procedure, to house 16 inmates coming off of suicide watch. 17 : Right. Any inmate coming off 18 of watch has a cellmate. I mean, we try to 19 cell every inmate with a cellmate, but 20 especially ones coming off of watch. It's 21 pretty routine. 22 : Okay. And the next question 23 that we had was, this is a notation that was 24 made, "No notations concerning a requirement 25 for a cellmate were entered into the SHU EFTA00061943  18 1 program, and subsequently available for SHU 2 officers to reference." What does that mean? 3 : I'm sorry. You're asking me 4 a question, or are you -- 5 : Yeah. So, this is 6 -- (Indiscernible *00:12:03) 7 the memo. 8 : -- this is basically loaded 9 inside the You see, it's hard when we can't 10 do it face to face, I could show you the after- 11 action report. This is a note that was inside 12 the after-action report. It was, it states as 13 such, "No notations concerning a requirement 14 for a cellmate were entered into the SHU 15 program, and subsequently -- 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 available for the SHU 18 officers to reference." What does that mean? 19 Like, what is the SHU? 20 : I guess the - I don't know 21 what they call it anymore - the computerized 22 program they use, there is a form called a 292. 23 I forget what the name of it is. But 24 basically, all the information for each inmate 25 is on that form. But that's not necessarily EFTA00061944  19 1 the only place. I mean, it could be in the 2 memorandum. But yeah. The 292, again, I don't 3 know what they - remember what they call that 4 form. It is where it all information for each 5 inmate in Special Housing is kept. 6 : Is this, like, the hot list? 7 : I'm sorry? 8 : Is this referred to as the 9 hot list, or is it something separate? Or is 10 this something on the system? 11 : Oh. No. That's a -. It's 12 something separate. So, the hot list is the 13 offenders who have psych concerns. I believe 14 that is what the hot list is. If I remember. 15 : Okay. 16 : But the 292 is a form, 17 basically, that lists each offender's name, 18 cell number, and the kind of list 19 (Indiscernible *00:13:26). If they've had 20 recreation, their meals, medical intentions, 21 stuff like that. And there is a place in there 22 where it could be noted that there is that 23 requirement, but the officer would have to put 24 it in there, after they were notified. So, 25 it's not the way to -. I think what you are EFTA00061945  20 1 asking is how would leadership notify the 2 officer's that he has to have a cellmate. And 3 the leadership doesn't put that stuff in there. 4 That's the officers, put that stuff in there. 5 : Okay. Okay. And how would 6 the leadership have notified? How should the 7 leadership have notified the officers? 8 : By email or a memo. I would 9 hope. 10 : Okay. 11 : Just some formal form of 12 communication. Then the officer could put it 13 onto (Indiscernible *00:14:09) the 292. 14 : And do you recall if that 15 notification was made, based on (Indiscernible 16 *00:14:15)? 17 : I remember the warden, and 18 the captain, and the AW saying that they 19 notified down the chain. But I don't recall 20 seeing anything particular, like in writing, or 21 a document, or anything. I'm not saying there 22 is not a document there. There may be one in 23 that report you are looking at. But 24 : Okay. 25 : I mean, I can't sit here EFTA00061946  21 1 today and say, yeah, I remember the form, I 2 remember the memo, or if I remember the email. 3 : Okay. And when you say 4 warden, that's Warden The captain was 5 , and the AW, was that 6 or 7 -: wasn't even there 8 then. I don't think. Was she? 9 : I think she had just -. So, 10 , you are referring to? 11 : I don't. I'm just saying in 12 general. That was the chain of command. The 13 warden, the AW, the captain would all be aware, 14 and ensure that was done. 15 : Okay. 16 : And so, would 17 have just started, sir. 18 : Okay. 19 : Just 20 : Yeah. But they are separated 21 by programs and operations. I don't -. I 22 remember, and if was just there - again, 23 I'm assuming - I'm assuming she wasn't in 24 charge of Special Housing, having just arrived. 25 : As far as, you said that EFTA00061947  22 1 they would usually tell by email or a 2 memorandum. 3 : Yeah. 4 : Who in the SHU - when you 5 said the staff would have entered it in the 292 6 - who would have been responsible for that? 7 Would that be, like, the SHU lieutenant -- 8 : There's -- 9 or the SHU OIC? 10 yeah. Probably the SHU 11 lieutenant or the OIC. 12 : And it could be 13 either/or, though? There's not typically one 14 person that would be, like, required to -? 15 : I mean, I don't think policy 16 specifies which one does it. I'm not sure. I 17 haven't read a BOP policy in two and a half 18 years. But I don't recall it, ever saying who 19 knows that information. Typically, the OIC or 20 the lieutenant one. 21 But now, according to 22 this, this note, and again, the reason, the 23 primary reason we wanted to talk to with you is 24 based upon this after-action report. It's 25 just, we had to do a number of email reviews, EFTA00061948  23 1 and within the emails, it looked like you were 2 involved with a lot of the, at least back and 3 forth, with finalizing this thing. 4 : Yeah. 5 : You know, helping to 6 coordinate it. So, with regard to that, our 7 understanding, through talking with a lot of 8 the staff, would be, it would be more like the 9 hot list that would list, you know, what 10 inmates needed to be, you know, housed with -- 11 : Yeah. 12 : -- another inmate. 13 : So, your question was, is 14 there a place to put it, and there is a place. 15 You can put that on the 292. I'm not saying it 16 has to be on there. 17 : Correct. 18 : But the answer is, but the 19 hot -. There is a hot list for psych inmates. 20 Yes. 21 : Right. So, yeah. So, we 22 were just getting back to the fact that it's in 23 this notation, within the after-action report. 24 The specific quote was, "No notations 25 concerning a requirement for a cellmate were EFTA00061949  24 1 entered into the SHU program, and subsequently 2 available for SHU officers to reference." So, 3 when they are saying the SHU program, they are 4 referencing the 292? 5 : Yes. Typically, that is what 6 someone is referencing. When they say the SHU 7 program, it's the program that allows the staff 8 to enter information on the 292s. 9 : And -. 10 : But there is also a hot list 11 that is developed by psychology services, for 12 those inmates that have psych concerns, and 13 restrictive housing. 14 : Okay. Great. Go ahead, 15 16 : But to sit here and say that 17 that has to be on the 292, I can't say that 18 that there is anywhere in writing that says 19 that is required by policy anywhere. 20 : Yeah. No. Our specific 21 question was just, what did it mean by SHU 22 program? 23 : Yeah. Okay. I gotcha. 24 : Okay. Do you know if any 25 plan was made on how to address the situation, EFTA00061950  25 1 if Epstein's cellmate, , was 2 removed as Epstein's cellmate? 3 : Well, I mean, any inmate 4 requiring a cellmate is still the - whether 5 it's on the 292 or on the hot list - that 6 information is still, would still be there. 7 So, the staff and the SHU would still be 8 required to provide a cellmate. 9 : And what was that something 10 that you were - I know you mentioned already 11 you were not involved - but that is not 12 something you were aware of, that if there was 13 a secondary plan, hey, just in case gets 14 removed, there's some actions that we need to 15 take? 16 : No. I mean, I do remember 17 I'm trying to remember if this was before or 18 after - but I do remember that the warden had 19 already identified a couple of people, if the 20 cellmate was ever removed. But I can't tell 21 you who they were, or when that conversation 22 happened. I mean, that could have been months 23 before. I don't know. 24 : Okay. And you were aware 25 that -. Has the warden spoke to you about EFTA00061951  N③ 一 什 z仂 、 。栲 ＜。＝ 一。仁jQ 。仁“ 尸仙什①慧 『，倒“，仂 毛＝仙竹 H一 三 仂倒詈口啕． 閂 卜 w u＝們什 咧①三①呂廿①栲①Q "5 仰“ 8 口＜①“們仰g 。＝． 冠 ， 2 5 ①r i t ． 毛仙仂 5①飾。鴆① 。栲 仙『“①忖、 H Q。口『什 天口。笔． H Q。 口 澤 仂 鬥①呂①呂廿①“ "5 ① Q①什仙一 仂 。一 一什． 蜀仁“ H q。 “①呂①，局u ①鬥 ~ ＝仙 ving 仙 n。j ＜①“仂仙g 。n with him 嘞 仙什 加。蘭① ℃ 呂 口 t' 閡 毛，①什~ el it w仙仂 5① 8 “① 什了①＜ 5仰Q 豈忖①山Q < 中 一Q ①口“ a ①Q ， 盡 、 。“ 一『 一竹 毛仙們 仙『“①鴆 什，仙竹 ＝① 了仙q ④ 仂 豈 Q 5① 了仙q 豈 “ ① Q＜ 一Q ①口 tifi ①Q z 盡 ． 閂了山什、 閂 H。 。仙＝一“ “①H 尸 ＜。F 岩 Q H Qon 嘞t w仙口“ 什。 ℃仁什 毛。“Q 仂 H一 一勻 了一 三。＝什＝. H閥 游jq 仙仂 『胃 仙仂 ＜。＝ 天＝。老， 什了①咧巾 H ~ 毛①栲① 倒 n。＝℃尸① 。f i口呂倒“①仂嘞 。什了① 1 i口呂劍“ eS , th 仰“ H. 5① 仰尸咧①仙Q < ，仙Q 。＝。仂巾口、 川 H仂 “ 什 仂①①呂加 什＝仙什 一 I 一 H③ l一 」uSt ir n山仂① “＝仙什 一 岫 H閡 I一 ＜①仰，． 工① ，仙Q 山 尸 呂 仙 q < 1 8 ide 口“ a ①Q ①一 ，①“ 。j ① 。鴆 什老。塌 一 “ 仂①①呂仂 尸 開P 暴 霎，①什，①鬥 I 山 呶 豈 j N。 O開劍＜. N一 I一 老5 ①“＝①“ 什＝仙什 n。j ＜①“加仙什 。口 N閥 毛仙們 “＝仙什 ＝① 什。尸q 三① 山飾什①鬥 “5 ① 『仙n 什 、 。“ 一『 5① Nw 什。 Q 呂① 寸①『。栲①． 閂＝仙什、 H 。仙＝一“ 鬥①盡① ~ v ①“． 1I N. 游jq ＜。＝ Q。口 ’ t r①n all if he N仂 呂 ① ， g 。j ①Q 什，① j山三①仂 。飾 什＝。仂① 一口三仙什①仂 什。 ＜。F EFTA00061952  27 1 either. Right? 2 He may have, but I don't 3 recall that. 4 : Now, let me ask you this, 5 sir. So, our understanding, through talking 6 with other people, was that the captain 7 provided a list to the warden, and the warden 8 contacted you, and you guys kind of hashed out 9 who should be with him. I think you were 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 -- you guys had, like, a 12 list of, like, three different people. 13 : That sounds - but I mean, I'm 14 not saying that didn't happen - that sounds 15 legitimate. 16 So, are you thinking that 17 the plan was probably if there were a list of 18 three people, if one person was selected, then 19 one of the other two people would probably be 20 the next person, or would there be a whole 21 separate other conversation with regards to 22 that? 23 : I mean, no, I mean, I would 24 imagine - and again, we're just having a what- 25 if conversation here, because I can't tell you EFTA00061953  28 1 the details of what happened two, two and a 2 half years ago - if he had a list of three 3 names, it was probably an assurance that at 4 least one of them was still there, or because 5 it's a jail, so people were constantly being 6 released. As an example, if his cellmate got 7 released that day. So, my guess is, the warden 8 probably did have two or three names already, 9 just in case one of them - or two of them - was 10 released by a judge at some point. 11 : Awesome. Thank you. 12 : Should those names have been 13 provided to the SHU lieutenant, or the OIC, 14 just in case, in case got removed, should 15 they have been aware who those inmates were? 16 : I mean, is there a 17 requirement to? No. Because the hot list 18 would have told them to make sure he had a 19 cellmate. 20 : Okay. 21 : At that point, they would 22 have to figure out who that cellmate would be. 23 : Yeah. 24 : Now, I don't know if they had 25 the names, or if it was provided to them. But EFTA00061954  29 1 to say policy says they must be provided, 2 that's not written anywhere. 3 : Okay. The after-action 4 report. It lists that, on August 9th, at 8:00 5 a.m., inmate the cellmate, departs for 6 court. Inmate does not return to the 7 institution. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : Based on your understanding, 10 do you know if was actually, like, 11 actually went to court, or was he transferred 12 out of the institution? 13 : Well, that information was 14 provided to me by whoever did the after-action. 15 So -- 16 : Okay. 17 : I mean, I don't know. 18 Whoever actually did the leg work of the after- 19 action, onsite, which was a team of staff I 20 sent there, they would have looked at the 21 documents to make that determination. 22 : Okay. But you don't recall, 23 at this point, your understanding was he, did 24 he go to court, or was he transferred? 25 : I don't have a clue. EFTA00061955  30 1 : Okay. 2 : I don't. I don't know. 3 : The reason we ask is, based 4 on what we looked at, it looks - based on our 5 investigation - we identified that the III. 6 Marshals Service had sent emails to the MCC, on 7 August 8th, saying that was being 8 transferred to the GEO prison, on August 9th. 9 : Okay. 10 : And being that Epstein was 11 required to have a cellmate, what should have 12 happened once that notification was made, that 13 was being transferred? 14 : I think you are talking about 15 two different departments. That information 16 was probably sent to the Receiving and 17 Discharge Department. Someone in R&D is not 18 going to know whether an inmate is required to 19 have a cellmate, or that he is even a cellmate 20 of Epstein. 21 : But doesn't R&D do court 22 list, or the take out list for the day, they 23 put an inmates name, inmate name, along 24 with the words WAB - With All Belongings - next 25 to it. That's our understanding what EFTA00061956  31 1 transpired. And they would have sent that over 2 to the SHU. And if an inmate was -- 3 : I don't -- 4 released from -. 5 I don't know. I don't 6 know how - I've never worked at MCC - so, I 7 don't know how they do that there. 8 : Okay. 9 : That would be an internal 10 process. 11 : Now, if that notification was 12 made, let's just say that was the process, they 13 did notify the SHU -- 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 -- that an inmate was 16 leaving, and -- 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 -- leaving WAB means With All 19 Belongings. Who is responsible to make sure 20 that Epstein had a new cellmate? 21 : On the 8th? He still had a 22 cellmate, right? 23 : On the 8th, he had. This 24 will be the 9th morning. 25 : Oh, the day he left. EFTA00061957  32 1 : The day he left. 2 : The OIC would be. 3 : The OIC would be? 4 : Whoever was in charge of SHU 5 at the time that his cellmate was removed 6 should be reviewing for, to find him a new 7 cellmate. 8 : Okay. And on the after- 9 action report, this is quoted in there, "On 10 August 9th, 2019, during a shift change in SHU, 11 the SHU number three, 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. 12 officer, briefed his 2:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. 13 relief, and the other two 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 14 p.m. officers of the likelihood inmate 15 Register Number , would not be 16 returning, and that inmate Epstein would 17 require a cellmate upon returning -- 18 : Okay. 19 -- from attorney visit. 20 : Okay. 21 : Inmate Epstein was not placed 22 with a cellmate upon his return to the SHU." 23 : All right. So, they were 24 notified that his cellmate wasn't back? 25 : Yes. He was notified that he EFTA00061958  33 1 would not - inmate - would not be 2 returning, and Epstein would require a cellmate 3 when he returned back from his attorney visit. 4 : Well, no, that's -- 5 : See, but he wasn't in SHU. 6 : -- just to clarify, 7 , it doesn't actually say that he wasn't 8 returning. It said, "The likelihood that he 9 wasn't returning." So, our question more 10 surrounds - and it sounds like you are going to 11 point back to your investigators - but how did 12 they know, how did they get this information? 13 Or do you know? 14 : How did they get -? 15 : So, this information that 16 is reported in the after-action report, our 17 investigation shows that it is inaccurate. So, 18 we are just trying to reconcile some of this 19 information. 20 : Okay. 21 : For instance, our 22 understanding is that, when left the SHU, 23 he was listed was WAB, With All Belongings. 24 When the OIC actually escorted both Epstein and 25 , together, Epstein to attorney EFTA00061959  34 1 conference, and to Receiving and 2 Discharge, they actually had a conversation, 3 saying, don't worry, the OIC telling them, I'm 4 going to get you a new inmate. I'm going to 5 get you a new cellmate. I'm sorry. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : And response was, 8 "Yes. Make sure you get him a new cellmate." 9 And it was known, at that time, that he wasn't 10 coming back. So -- 11 : Got it. 12 : -- we're trying to 13 reconcile, because there is a lot of people 14 that are saying that inmate went to 15 court. However, we have emails from August 16 8th, to both, two different -- 17 : Right. 18 : emails from the 19 Marshals Service. One that went to just 20 Receiving and Discharge, and another that went 21 to a number of people in the institution, 22 including all of the lieutenants. 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : And that happened on 25 August 8th, and it went that, within it, it EFTA00061960  35 1 said that he was being transferred to GEO. 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : So, our question just 4 kind of was, with regard to this specific 5 point, if you knew how they obtained that 6 information. And then, the second part of that 7 would be, on August 8th, with the people that 8 did receive this information, that was actually 9 part of custody and not Receiving and Discharge 10 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : -- should have 13 : Yeah. 14 : -- should have they taken 15 any action, and if so, what actions should have 16 they taken? 17 : Well, one, I don't know where 18 they got that information. I would assume -. 19 I mean, other than the actual report, there is 20 attachments of documents with that, correct? 21 : With the -. Yeah. So -- 22 : Okay. 23 : -- well, with the -- 24 : -- (Indiscernible *00:27:00). 25 : -- with the after-action EFTA00061961  36 1 report? No. We did not have any -- 2 : Yeah. 3 -- that is correct. 4 : Okay. 5 : Right, ? We don't 6 have any It just has the information 7 : Okay. 8 : -- and a lot of the 9 points after it says, "Because we didn't have 10 video, we weren't to verify things with video," 11 and because -- 12 : Right. 13 : -- we didn't have -- 14 : Right. 15 : -- this, I mean, and 16 because it seemed like they had a limited kind 17 of ability to -- 18 : Well -- 19 : -- really verify -- 20 : -- yeah -- 21 : -- some of this stuff. 22 : -- (Indiscernible *00:27:20) 23 positive, this turned into such a large scale 24 investigation with the OIG and the FBI, they 25 were limited on what they could do. They had EFTA00061962  37 1 limited access, unfortunately. So, their 2 investigation was (Indiscernible *00:27:31). 3 Their after-action review was pretty limited. 4 Based on their access to a lot of stuff, I 5 would imagine. I'm sorry. The other part you 6 asked was? 7 : So, yeah. The first part 8 -- 9 : (Indiscernible *00:27:42). 10 and again, the, kind 11 of the reason why we are doing this is, one) to 12 find out if we are missing anything; and two) 13 we just don't want to totally contradict the 14 BOP report -- 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : -- and to see if, like, 17 hey, where it's, like, let - we wanted to say - 18 let's talk to the regional director at least to 19 see if he knew anything. Like, did he learn 20 anything after, maybe, this report was 21 finalized, or if maybe if he can help us kind 22 of, like, at least clear up how some of this 23 could have, you know 24 : Right. 25 : -- the discrepancies EFTA00061963  38 1 could have taken place. But the follow up to 2 that was that, we -. Hold on. What - 3 what was my question? Now, I've even lost 4 track of my own train of thought. 5 : Yeah. Somehow, I think, if I 6 remember, you said something about all the 7 lieutenants were aware that he was leaving the 8 next day 9 : Oh. Correct. 10 : -- so, when should they 11 start? 12 : Go back -- 13 : Or -? 14 : -- yeah. Going back to 15 the -- 16 : Okay. 17 : -- email -- 18 : But I don't remember two and 19 a half years ago, but I do remember what you 20 just asked (Indiscernible *00:28:36). 21 : Yeah. 22 : (Indiscernible *00:28:37). 23 So, you are saying they were all aware the 9th 24 and the day before. 25 : Well, we're not -- EFTA00061964  39 1 : That he was -. 2 : -- we're not saying 3 necessarily they were aware. We're saying that 4 we have emails saying that they received an 5 email from the Marshals Service, and within 6 that email was an attachment that said that he 7 was being transferred. 8 : Okay. 9 : So, based upon, you know, 10 all of the lieutenants, and other custody staff 11 receiving that email, should have they known 12 that he was being transferred, based upon 13 : The day before? 14 : -- the day before, on 15 August 8th. Correct. 16 : No. Not necessarily. I 17 mean, that changes - especially in a detention 18 center - that changes hourly. I mean, they 19 could have showed up that morning to pick up 20 everybody and said, oh, disregard on -. I'm 21 sorry. What did you say the other inmates name 22 was? 23 24 . Yes. 25 : Yeah, they could have EFTA00061965  40 1 2 : -- the Marshals could have 3 shown up that morning and said is not 4 going, and changed the intake, or the - I don't 5 even remember what they call those forms 6 anymore - discharge form. So, to make plans 7 the day before, I mean, if you want to go above 8 and beyond, sure. But is there a requirement 9 to? No. The requirement is that he had a 10 celimate. He had a cellmate until the next 11 day. And technically, he wasn't even in the 12 SHU, because you said he was at, with his 13 lawyer, right? 14 : Right. So, he was with 15 his lawyer up until, you know, that nighttime. 16 Probably about 7:00 p.m. 17 : Right. 18 : -- and that's been a lot 19 of people's excuses -- 20 : So -. 21 : -- saying that, hey, we 22 had until -- 23 : Right. 24 : -- 7:00 p.m. to get him 25 there, but -- EFTA00061966  41 1 : Right. 2 : -- our investigation is 3 kind of, you know, revealed that they knew - 4 and when I say "they," I mean at least the OIC 5 6 : Right. 7 : -- and -. 8 : Yeah. Once he was actually, 9 technically, once he was removed from SHU, they 10 knew he was removed and transferred, yeah, then 11 someone should have started taking action at 12 that point. 13 : And then, or a lot of 14 these people are saying, well, we didn't know 15 if he was technically going to return because 16 he went to court. But we've learned that, at 17 least institutionally, and I don't