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648
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SEVENTEENTH JUDICIAL
CIRCUIT IN AND FOR BROWARD COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO.: CACE 15-000072
BRADLEY J. EDWARDS and PAUL G.
CASSELL,
Plaintiffs,
VS.
ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ,
Defendant.
VIDEOTAPE CONTINUED DEPOSITION OF
ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ
VOLUME 5
Pages 648 through 781
Wednesday, January 13, 2016
9:04 a.m. - 11:59 a.m.
Tripp Scott
110 Southeast 6th Street
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
Stenographically Reported By:
Kimberly Fontalvo, RPR, CLR
Realtime Systems Administrator
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1 APPEARANCES:
2
On behalf of Plaintiffs:
3
SEARCY, DENNEY, SCAROLA
4 BARNHART & SHIPLEY, P.A.
2139 Palm Beach Lakes Boulevard
5 West Palm Beach, Florida 33402-3626
BY: JACK SCAROLA, ESQ.
6
7
8 On behalf of Defendant:
9 COLE, SCOTT & KISSANE, P.A.
Dadeland Centre II - Suite 1400
10 9150 South Dadeland Boulevard
Miami, Florida 33156
11 BY: THOMAS EMERSON SCOTT, JR., ESQ.
12 BY: STEVEN SAFRA, ESQ. (Via phone)
13 --and
14 SWEDER & ROSS, LLP
131 Oliver Street
15 Boston, MA 02110
BY: KENNETH A. SWEDER, ESQ.
16
17 --and--
18 WILEY, REIN
17769 K Street NW
19 Washington, DC 20006
BY: RICHARD A. SIMPSON, ESQ.
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 APPEARANCES (Continued):
2
3 On behalf of Jeffrey Epstein:
4 DARREN K. INDYKE, PLLC
575 Lexington Ave., 4th Fl.
5 New York, New York
BY: DARREN K. INDYKE, ESQ. (Via phone)
6
7 On behalf of
8 BOIES, SCHILLER & FLEXNER, LLP
401 E. Las Olas Blvd., Ste. 1200
9 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301
BY: SIGRID STONE MCCAWLEY, ESQ.
10
11
12 ALSO PRESENT:
13 Edward J. Pozzuoli, Special Master
14 Sean D. Reyes, Utah Attorney General Office
15 Marcy Martinez, Videographer
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 INDEX
2
3
Examination Page
4
5 VOLUME 5 (Pages 648 - 781)
6
7 Certificate of Oath 778
Certificate of Reporter 779
8 Read and Sign Letter to Witness 780
Errata Sheet (forwarded upon execution) 781
9
10 PLAINTIFF EXHIBITS
11
12 No. Page
13 25 Transcript from Don Lemon Interview 689
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
EFTA01138029
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1 Thereupon, the proceedings continued at 9:04 a.m.
2 VIDEOGRAPHER: Are now on the video
3 record. This is the 13th day of January, 2016.
4 The time is 9:04 a.m. This is the videotaped
5 deposition of Alan Dershowitz in the matter of
6 Bradley Edwards and Paul Cassell versus Alan
7 Dershowitz.
8 My name is Marcy Martinez. I am the
9 videographer representing Above & Beyond
10 Reprographics. Will the attorneys please
11 announce their appearances for the record.
12 MR. EDWARDS: Sure. On behalf of the
13 plaintiff today Brad Edwards, Jack Scarola,
14 Brittany Henderson and Paul Cassell.
15 MR. SIMPSON: On behalf of the defendant
16 and the witness, Richard Simpson, and Thomas
17 Scott will be joining. He just walked in.
18 MS. McCAWLEY: On behalf of nonparty
19 , Sigrid McCawley and my
20 colleague Meredith Schultz from Boies, Schiller
21 & Flexner.
22 MR. INDYKE: On behalf of Jeffrey Epstein,
23 Darren Indyke.
24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Ed Pozzuoli as
25 the special master.
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1 MR. SIMPSON: Is there anyone else on the
2 phone?
3 MR. MAISEL: Yeah, this is Nicholas
4 Maisel.
5 THE COURT REPORTER: Would you raise your
6 right hand, please?
7 Do you swear or affirm that the testimony
8 you are about to give will be the truth, the
9 whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
10 THE WITNESS: I do.
11 MR. SCAROLA: Nick, would you announce the
12 capacity in which you're appearing, please.
13 MR. MAISEL: Special research assistant
14 for Alan Dershowitz.
15 MR. SCAROLA: Thank you.
16 MR. EDWARDS: Are we ready?
17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Go ahead.
18 BY MR. EDWARDS:
19 Q. Mr. Dershowitz, in January of 2015, when
20 you made the statements that Paul Cassell and Brad
21 Edwards participated in the fabricating of the
22 allegations that were made against you, what
23 information or evidence did you have in your
24 possession at that time to support those statements?
25 MR. SIMPSON: Object to the form as overly
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1 general. You may answer.
2 A. As soon as the allegations were made
3 against me, I received a series of phone calls and
4 people approached me at various events and they
5 warned me about the reputation of Bradley Edwards.
6 They told me that he had, in their view,
7 participated in a major fraud with a man named
8 Rothstein, that he should be in jail for the
9 Rothstein events.
10 I received a phone call saying that he had
11 fabricated evidence when he was a prosecutor and
12 that he had knowingly failed to investigate police
13 fabrication of evidence in a case. Generally was
14 warned about the terrible reputation that
15 Mr. Edwards had.
16 I also received phone calls telling me
17 that Mr. Cassell was a zealot, that he had used me
18 in class as a whipping -- as a kind of an object of
19 hate and painted me as a liberal supporter of the
20 exclusionary rule and opponent of the death penalty,
21 and that he had no concern for the truth when it
22 came to his zealotry on behalf of alleged victims.
23 The calls were just -- the people who told
24 me this were just -- there were so many of them that
25 it was amazing to me.
EFTA01138032
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1 And I knew, of course, that I had never
2 met -- had no contact with I knew
3 that she was lying. I read her deposition, and as
4 an experienced lawyer with 50 years of experience,
5 it was absolutely clear to me that no lay person
6 with her lack of education could have written that
7 deposition.
a I sought the advice of friends and others
9 with experience who confirmed the view that that
10 affidavit clearly had to have been written by
11 lawyers and certainly drafted by lawyers; the level
12 of detail, the structure of the sentences, all of
13 which led me conclusively to the belief that the
14 lawyers had written this affidavit.
15 I suspected from the very beginning that
16 this was part of an extortion plot in order to
17 obtain money. I later learned many, many, many
18 facts.
19 MR. EDWARDS: I object and move to strike
20 as nonresponsive and that the question calls
21 for information in his possession in January of
22 2015. I would ask for a ruling on that.
23 A. I'm providing that, but I'm giving the
24 context.
25 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Denied. Move
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1 forward.
2 A. Okay. I knew that there was a financial
3 motivation here. I also knew that Cassell and
4 Edwards had lied when they said they were
5 representing in a pro bono basis.
6 I had been informed repeatedly that they
7 were in it for the money and that they expected to
a earn a lot of money from representing her and others
9 in this case and that they pretended to be pro bono
10 lawyers when they were, in fact, money-grubbing,
11 money-hungry lawyers who had earned a very
12 substantial amount of money already on these cases
13 and were expecting to earn more money.
14 Let me think of what other information I
15 had.
16 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: At the time of
17 the question.
18 A. At the time of my statements, right.
19 It's just inconceivable to me that this
20 uneducated woman could have come up with this story
21 on her own.
22 I understood the motives of the lawyers,
23 and I was convinced, therefore, it was my opinion
24 based on my experience, in fact, that she could not
25 have done this by herself and that she had to have
EFTA01138034
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1 worked in coordination with her lawyers.
2 Her lawyers were also at that point
3 claiming that the story should be believed because
4 of who they were. Mr. Cassell, in my view,
5 unethically signed his pleading with the University
6 of Utah imprimatur, suggesting that he was a State
7 actor, suggesting that he acted on behalf of his
8 university, something I would never do and I've
9 stopped clients from doing. When I represent
10 people, I represent them on my own behalf, not on
11 behalf of any university.
12 The very fact that the Attorney General of
13 Utah was here yesterday indicates that he may very
14 well be a State actor and subject to the rules of
15 State action rather than individual action.
16 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That portion I
17 will strike. That sentence.
18 A. Sorry.
19 BY MR. EDWARDS:
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. I'm not finished.
22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Is there any
23 other information that you haven't touched
24 on --
25 THE WITNESS: I'm trying to --
EFTA01138035
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1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: -- as of, what,
2 January?
3 MR. EDWARDS: January of 2015.
4 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes.
5 MR. SCAROLA: January 4.
6 MR. EDWARDS: January 4, 2015.
7 A. Okay, that's the question. But, of
8 course, I made a series of statements that continued
9 beyond January 4, and they always took into account
10 new developments and new information that I had.
11 I was also aware that Mr. Cassell was
12 promoting himself as a former federal judge and
13 using his status and imprimatur in a false effort to
14 try to add credibility to the story.
15 And I did not make -- this is very
16 important to this. I did not make a single call to
17 a single newspaper or single television station, to
18 my knowledge, or a single newspaper. I was
19 constantly responding.
20 MR. SCAROLA: That's not responsive.
21 A. Excuse me. In the last deposition --
22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No, no.
23 A. -- there was an interruption by
24 Mr. Scarola that I want to put on the record.
25 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No, no, no, no,
EFTA01138036
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1 no, no, no. No. Respond to the question that
2 was answered and go ahead because I haven't
3 heard any objection yet.
4 MR. EDWARDS: I'm objecting to all of this
5 as being nonresponsive to the question.
6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Is there
7 anything else that you would like to add to the
8 answer?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 A. When the newspapers called me, they all
11 asked me the following question --
12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Was this in
13 January?
14 A. This was in January.
15 BY MR. EDWARDS:
16 Q. The question on the table is --
17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on one
18 second.
19 A. I'm going to tell you.
20 MR. EDWARDS: What information that
21 Mr. Dershowitz had in January 4, 2015, when he
22 made the statement that Paul Cassell and Brad
23 Edwards fabricated the allegations against him.
24 MR. SIMPSON: The question was about in
25 January of 2015.
EFTA01138037
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1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That's what it
2 was. That was the original question, which is
3 why he was afforded a tremendous amount of
4 latitude.
5 MR. EDWARDS: Understood.
6 A. And I got continuing information all
7 through January and amended my statements as
8 consistent with the information that I got.
9 The newspapers called me. They all said
10 to me, why would anybody make a false allegation if
11 he's a former Federal judge, if he's a professor, if
12 he's a distinguished trial lawyer?
13 Clearly the -- on the 4th of December,
14 talking about that day, that's the day on which
15 Mr. Cassell wrote to ABC
16 BY MR. EDWARDS:
17 Q. January.
18 A. January 4, 2015, that's the date on which
19 Mr. Cassell wrote to ABC News asking them to
20 publicize his client's story and to -- and again
21 making it clear to ABC who he was and what he -- and
22 who he had been and what offices he had held.
23 And so it was clear to me at that point,
24 and through January it became clearer and clearer
25 that she could not have done this on her own, that
EFTA01138038
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1 she had to have sat with her lawyers and concocted
2 this story, added the kind of detail to the story
3 that would make a lie seem plausible and credible.
4 And I think that any reasonable lawyer reading that
5 affidavit would have come to exactly the same
6 conclusion that I came to.
7 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Okay.
8 BY MR. EDWARDS:
9 Q. Mr. Dershowitz, when you first made the
10 statement on January 4, 2015 that Mr. Cassell and
11 Brad Edwards had participated in the fabrication of
12 these allegations, did you have before you any
13 affidavit or, as you have repeatedly called it,
14 deposition of
15 MR. SIMPSON: Object to the form. It's
16 referring to a specific statement that has not
17 been identified for the witness.
18 A. Affidavit of What I had
19 was the lawyers' statements that were included in
20 the Complaint, which they then sought to publicize
21 all around the world and got more than a thousand
22 newspapers to cover the story, every television
23 station in the world, every radio station virtually
24 in the world, based on what they themselves had
25 written, actually gives me even a greater basis,
EFTA01138039
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1 because it wasn't at that point based on her
2 affidavit, it was based on what the lawyers had
3 said.
4 MR. EDWARDS: I object. Can I have the
5 question read back. I'm lost as to what the
6 question is anymore.
7 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Ask -- reread
8 the question.
9 COURT REPORTER: "Mr. Dershowitz, when you
10 first made the statement on January 4, 2015
11 that Mr. Cassell and Brad Edwards had
12 participated in the fabrication of these
13 allegations, did you have before you any
14 affidavit or, as you have repeatedly called it,
15 deposition of ."
16 BY MR. EDWARDS:
17 Q. Did you?
18 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: So that's the
19 question. Answer that question only.
20 MR. SCAROLA: Move to strike everything
21 else he's said.
22 A. On January 4th, to my memory, I did not
23 refer to a deposition or to whatever other word you
24 used -- what was the word?
25 MR. SIMPSON: Affidavit.
EFTA01138040
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1 MR. EDWARDS: Affidavit.
2 A. -- if I hadn't seen it at that point. I
3 don't remember the exact day when her affidavit came
4 in. I referred obviously to the pleadings. That
5 was the allegation, the allegation in the pleadings.
6 So if I said that you and Cassell sat and
7 helped her make it up, it was based on -- at that
8 point in time, based on you and her, primarily you
9 and Cassell, because she didn't submit -- it wasn't
10 an affidavit at that point.
11 It was your words, you, that were accusing
12 me of these heinous crimes without any basis. So I
13 surely had a basis on January 4th of attributing it
14 to you because it was your signature on the
15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hold on a
16 second. So I understand, the question is what
17 did you have on January 4th --
18 MR. EDWARDS: -- 2015 to support that
19 statement.
20 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Just answer that
21 question first and then you can explain, but --
22 A. With due respect, Your Honor, I think the
23 question was, did you have the affidavit in front of
24 you.
25
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1 BY MR. EDWARDS:
2 Q. Right. Okay. Did you have the affidavit
3 or deposition of on that day?
4 A. To my recollection, I did not. I had only
5 your characterization of the accusation which you
6 were making against me.
7 Q. And in your experience as an attorney,
8 isn't it common knowledge that attorneys drafting
9 complaints or pleadings take the word of the client
10 to form the basis of that Complaint or pleading?
11 A. No, it's not common knowledge. It's
12 common knowledge that unethical lawyers of the kind
13 that your reputation told me you were help the
14 clients
15 MR. EDWARDS: I object. Move to strike as
16 nonresponsive.
17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That, I am going
18 to strike. Try -- try to answer the question.
19 A. But I think the generic answer is ethical
20 lawyers -- let me put it this way, ethical lawyers
21 should not elaborate on what a client tells them in
22 an affidavit.
23 In my experience, there's a continuum.
24 Many, many lawyers, when they see a statement by a
25 client, they'll say, no, no, no, no, could you
EFTA01138042
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1 please elaborate on that. You say you had sex with
2 him. Was it one time? Was it two times? Could it
3 have been six times? Could it have been on the
4 airplane? Could it have been -- et cetera.
5 So I think it's a continuum of the way
6 lawyers work with clients. The most ethical lawyers
7 don't change what a client says. They word for word
8 repeat what the client says.
9 The most unethical lawyers will put all of
10 their own thoughts, words, ideas if it strengthens
11 their position and strengthens their case.
12 From what I had been -- from the
13 information I knew at that time, I put you on the
14 extreme unethical end of the continuum.
15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That wasn't the
16 question, so 1 will strike the last sentence.
17 We need to get focused on answering the
18 question, so please try to do that.
19 A. Okay, I will do that.
20 BY MR. EDWARDS:
21 Q. When you first made the statements that
22 Paul Cassell and Brad Edwards fabricated the
23 allegations --
24 A. Would you read me the statement that you
25 say I made on January 4th so I can understand what
EFTA01138043
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1 you're saying?
2 Q. Do you deny making the statement that Brad
3 Edwards and Paul Cassell fabricated the allegations
4 against you?
5 A. I remember making a series of statements
6 over time. I do not remember what I said on
7 January 4th. In order to ask me what I had at the
8 time I made the statement, I need to know with
9 precision the exact statement you are referring to
10 and the exact date. I think that's a fair request.
11 Q. We'll get that for you. It would be
12 easier had you made less statements, but we'll sift
13 through them.
14 A. If would be easier if you had called
15 MR. SIMPSON: There's no question. Object
16 to the sidebar comments.
17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Yes, let's --
18 BY MR. EDWARDS:
19 Q. What are the names -- please list for me
20 all of the names of the people who told you that --
21 in quotes -- Brad Edwards was -- participated in a
22 major fraud with Rothstein. Names of people.
23 MR. INDYKE: Objection based upon
24 attorney-client, work product, common interest.
25 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Well, okay.
EFTA01138044
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1 MR. INDYKE: Instruct Alan not to answer
2 to the extent it would disclose communications
3 of who made those --
4 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Objection noted.
5 You can answer it.
6 A. What framework are you giving me in terms
7 of time?
8 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: In January.
9 BY MR. EDWARDS:
10 Q. You told me that before you made these
11 statements, one of the things that you had in your
12 possession was a series of phone calls, "a bunch of
13 people called me" --
14 A. That is right. That's true.
15 Q. -- "and told me Brad Edwards participated
16 in major fraud with Rothstein." That's the first
17 question I want answered. What are the names of
18 those people?
19 A. A number of them who called me were ones
20 who volunteered --
21 MR. SCAROLA: That's not a response to the
22 question.
23 BY MR. EDWARDS:
24 Q. What are the names?
25 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Stop, stop,
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1 please, please, please.
2 A. I'm invoking the privilege, if you would
3 allow me, please. A number of those who called me
4 called me in tandem to volunteer to be my lawyer.
5 I'll give you an example.
6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No, no, hang on.
7 A. I can't name this person because he called
8 to give me legal advice, and I -- he gave me that
9 information as part of his legal advice.
10 BY MR. EDWARDS:
11 Q. I'm not asking if one of the lawyers who
12 represented you and you have an attorney-client
13 privilege with has shared with you some information
14 that they believe to be the case.
15 I'm asking if you are using as support for
16 your statement that certain people told you and you
17 relied upon this -- and the particular "this" at
18 this point is that Brad Edward participated in a
19 major fraud with Scott Rothstein -- I want to know
20 the names of those people that you are relying upon
21 to test veracity of that statement, please. Names
22 of people.
23 A. One of the names was of a person who I was
24 seeking legal representation from, and it was part
25 of my conversation with him regarding legal
EFTA01138046
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1 representation.
2 MR. SCAROLA: That's not a name.
3 MR. EDWARDS: I'm sorry, I object and I
4 ask --
5 A. If I give you the name
6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I do think you
7 have to give the name.
8 A. Okay. The name of that person would be
9 David Markus.
10 BY MR. EDWARDS:
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. And he told me to check the docket --
13 MR. SIMPSON: Just the question.
14 BY MR. EDWARDS:
15 Q. When did David Markus call you to tell you
16 that he knew or believed that Brad Edwards
17 participated in a major fraud with Rothstein?
18 A. Within days. Within probably a day or
19 two.
20 Q. Did he tell you what it was that formed
21 the basis for that statement that he made to you
22 that you so relied upon?
23 A. I don't recall.
24 Q. Was it more than the fact that your
25 client, Jeffrey Epstein, had filed a lawsuit making
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1 those allegations?
2 A. I don't think he was aware that Jeffrey
3 Epstein had made an allegation of that kind.
4 Q. At the time when David Markus called you
5 to tell you that Brad Edwards participated in a
6 major fraud with Rothstein, did you already --
7 A. That's not
8 Q. -- have or know that Scott Rothstein had
9 testified under oath about that specific subject
10 matter?
11 A. Well, I can't imagine that you're relying
12 on Scott Rothstein's credibility.
13 Q. I'm asking, did you know?
14 MR. SIMPSON: Just answer the question.
15 BY MR. EDWARDS:
16 Q. Yes or no?
17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Did you know?
18 A. I did not know.
19 BY MR. EDWARDS:
20 Q. Did you know at that point in time that
21 the Complaint that was filed by your client, Jeffrey
22 Epstein, against Brad Edwards, making those exact
23 allegations, had been dismissed at the stage -- at
24 the point in time when David Markus was making these
25 statements to you that you so relied upon?
EFTA01138048
1 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
2 instruction.
3 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: He's --
4 MR. EDWARDS: Calls for a yes or no
5 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: He's only asked
6 if you aware that the case was dismissed at
7 that time.
8 A. I don't think I was. But a case being
9 dismissed does not mean the allegation isn't true.
10 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I understand,
11 but --
12 BY MR. EDWARDS:
13 Q. Okay. In addition to David Markus, can
14 you please complete this list of people that you
15 testified called you to tell you specifically that
16 Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud with
17 Rothstein?
18 A. So, I spoke several times during that
19 period of time at various events. And people --
20 lawyers came over to me and told me --
21 Q. I'm not asking where. Who? What are the
22 names?
23 A. I can tell you one of them --
24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: He's trying to
25 be -- I would allow him to answer it. He's
EFTA01138049
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1 trying to be responsive to the question.
2 Please proceed.
3 A. One of them was a former president or
4 chairman or at least member of the Florida Bar
5 committee who warned me about you.
6 BY MR. EDWARDS:
7 Q. Does he have a name?
8 A. I don't remember his name. I don't
9 remember his name, no. Of course he has a name, but
10 I don't remember his name.
11 Another was -- I mean -- just hard to
12 pinpoint names, but it was something that was
13 clearly in my mind that so many people were telling
14 me -- telling me to look into the case of Rothstein,
15 telling me that you were his protege.
16 Q. Okay. Is it true, then, that you have the
17 name of one person who you can identify told you
18 that Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud with
19 Rothstein?
20 A. I was also aware, of course, of the
21 Complaint that had been filed against you. And that
22 was one -- I mean, I can't comment on that because
23 of lawyer-client privilege.
24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Listen to the
25 question, Professor. Go ahead.
EFTA01138050
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1 BY MR. EDWARDS:
2 Q. Is it now your testimony that you can only
3 provide me with one name of one human being that
4 called you and told you Brad Edwards participated in
5 a major fraud with Rothstein?
6 A. I will try to think of others.
7 Probably -- I may have some notes of others. I will
8 call around and find out whether my memory is
9 correct or not.
10 MR. SIMPSON: Professor --
11 A. But I don't want to mention names without
12 being sure.
13 MR. SIMPSON: Just do you recall, as you
14 sit here, the names?
15 A. And right now, I don't recall names, other
16 than a general discussion with my lawyers. And in
17 the general discussion with my lawyers -- and I
18 don't want to get into it --
19 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Then don't do
20 it.
21 BY MR. EDWARDS:
22 Q. Are you relying upon the statements from
23 your lawyers to support this allegation that the
24 basis of your statement that Brad Edwards
25 participated in the fabrication of the allegations
EFTA01138051
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1 against you was a list of people told you
2 Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud with
3 Rothstein; and, if so, I want to know the names of
4 those lawyers that you are using to support that
5 allegation?
6 MR. SIMPSON: Well, we have asserted
7 privilege as to communications with those who
8 represented you. Please don't disclose that.
9 MR. SCAROLA: Respectfully -- pardon me --
10 the witness is the possessor of that privilege.
11 He cannot make a statement disclosing the
12 content of the communications that he is
13 relying on and then he himself assert a
14 privilege to refuse to provide further
15 information with regard to the statement that
16 he has made. We would request a ruling on the
17 record as to whether there has already been a
18 waiver.
19 A. What I said, of course, was that
20 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Excuse me. Hang
21 on a second.
22 MR. SCAROLA: We're requesting a ruling on
23 the record as to whether there has been a
24 waiver as a consequence of what has already
25 been stated.
EFTA01138052
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1 MR. SIMPSON: He did not testify that
2 he -- we went through long questions and
3 answers in response to Mr. Edwards' questions.
4 He did not say he was relying on what his
5 lawyers told him in this case.
6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I think that
7 there is -- let me say this: I think the
8 question was from Mr. Edwards whether he relied
9 on statements from his lawyers. I do think
10 that you have to answer that question.
11 A. I would say that the statements from my
12 lawyers played a small role. The larger role
13 BY MR. EDWARDS:
14 Q. I want to know about that small role.
15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on one
16 second. So now proceed.
17 BY MR. EDWARDS:
18 Q. Sure. I would like to know whose
19 statements it was that played a small role in your
20 belief that Brad Edwards fabricated cases based on
21 the statements that they made to you that
22 Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud with
23 Rothstein. What are the name of those individuals?
24 A. It's a complicated question here. So
25 there are three issues that I understand. One, what
EFTA01138053
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1 was the basis for my belief that you had fabricated
2 along with Mr. Cassell --
3 Q. No, I'm asking for names of human beings.
4 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No, let me stop
5 you. My understanding of your testimony was
6 that whatever you received -- whatever
7 information you received from your lawyers
8 played a small role. That's what you testified
9 to.
10 THE WITNESS: That's right.
11 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Correctly,
12 Mr. Edwards then followed up on that question
13 and said, let's go into that small role.
14 THE WITNESS: Okay.
15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: So now . . .
16 BY MR. EDWARDS:
17 Q. What are the names of those people that
18 gave you this information that played a small role
19 in --
20 A. In what?
21 Q. in your belief that Brad Edwards had
22 participated in a major fraud with Rothstein which
23 somehow furthered your belief that Brad Edwards and
24 Paul Cassell fabricated the allegations against you?
25 So I'm asking for names of the people.
EFTA01138054
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1 A. So my best recollection, and it's now over
2 a year, is that that was a subject of conversation
3 with David Markus. It was also the subject of
4 conversation with --
5 MS. McCAWLEY: I'm sorry, I didn't hear
6 that. If he's talking about conversations
7 MR. EDWARDS: He said Davis Markus.
8 MS. McCAWLEY: I'm sorry. I couldn't
9 hear.
10 A. Another lawyer -- other people sent me
11 newspaper clippings.
12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No, no, no.
13 A. Lawyer. Okay. The other lawyer who told
14 me about that was a lawyer named David Efron.
15 MR. SCAROLA: First of all, make sure the
16 list is complete, and then you want to know
17 every one.
18 BY MR. EDWARDS:
19 Q. Is that it? David Markus, David Efron?
20 A. Those are the two I remember offhand.
21 Plus, as I said, when I spoke I spoke
22 at several events in January --
23 Q. Right now --
24 A. -- and lawyers came -- people
25 lawyers --
EFTA01138055
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1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let me stop you.
2 BY MR. EDWARDS:
3 Q. Let me get to the next question.
4 A. Yes.
5 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let me ask the
6 witness, the question is limited to --
7 MR. EDWARDS: Yes, the lawyers who played
8 a small role.
9 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: The small role
10 around the lawyers, and I think the followup
11 question was, you've mentioned a second lawyer,
12 is there anybody else on that list?
13 BY MR. EDWARDS:
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Two lawyers, yes. The lawyers who came
16 over to me at the events that I spoke at.
17 Q. What are their names?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. How do you know that they're lawyers?
20 A. Because it was a lawyers' event. And they
21 were trial lawyers. This was all trial lawyers at
22 the event. Florida trial lawyers.
23 Q. You don't have the names of any of them;
24 is that right?
25 A. I can describe one of them as somebody who
EFTA01138056
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1 came over to me and told me -- he may have given me
2 a card, which I conceivably may have at home, told
3 me that he was a former official of the Florida Bar
4 and was outraged at what had happened and told me to
5 please look into your background and then told me
6 about your background.
7 Q. Dade Markus, is he a former student of
8 yours?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. Did he have anything to do with the
11 investigation into the -- Scott Rothstein or any of
12 that?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. David Efron, did he have any inside
15 personal information into who was or who was not
16 culpable in any aspect of the fraud with Scott
17 Rothstein?
18 A. I don't know.
19 MR. SCAROLA: You want to know exactly
20 what they said.
21 BY MR. EDWARDS:
22 Q. Before we go to the next statement that
23 apparently formed your basis for believing that
24 Brad Edwards and Paul Cassell fabricated the
25 allegations against you, can you tell me exactly
EFTA01138057
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1 word for word as you remember it what David Markus
2 and then what David Efron told you --
3 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let's start with
4 the first one.
5 BY MR. EDWARDS:
6 Q. -- what David Markus told you about the
7 participation of Brad Edwards in a fraud with
8 Rothstein?
9 MR. SIMPSON: We assert privilege to the
10 extent that it's someone who he was getting
11 legal advice from.
12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'm going to
13 allow the question. You can answer over
14 objection.
15 A. All I can tell you is what the total
16 information I had at that point. I can't now, as I
17 sit here, separate out what Markus said, what Efron
18 said, what the lawyers who I met at the events said.
19 I can give you a totality of what the conclusion was
20 that was reached. Each of them contributed
21 something.
22 BY MR. EDWARDS:
23 Q. Where were you when you received this
24 communication from David Markus about his
25 understanding or belief that Brad Edwards
EFTA01138058
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1 participated in a major fraud with Rothstein?
2 A. In my apartment, I suspect.
3 Q. Do you remember this?
4 A. I remember being in my apartment when the
5 story broke and getting call after call after call
6 from lawyers.
7 Q. Was this a telephone call with David
8 Markus --
9 A. Probably.
10 Q. -- or an in-person meeting?
11 A. It was -- well, I had both. I had both
12 with him. I had a telephone call and then we had a
13 meeting.
14 Q. And in this, did he describe to you what
15 support he had for this statement that he was making
16 to you regarding the involvement of Brad Edwards in
17 a major fraud with Rothstein?
18 MR. SCOTT: Objection, work product on
19 this whole line of questioning. He has the
20 name. If we're going to go beyond this, we
21 need a judicial ruling from the judge and you.
22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Well, I'm going
23 to allow the witness to answer it at this point
24 and overrule the objection without prejudice.
25 A. What is the question again?
EFTA01138059
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1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Well, go back to
2 the question.
3 COURT REPORTER: "And in this, did he
4 describe to you what support he had for this
5 statement that he was making to you regarding
6 the involvement of Brad Edwards in a major
7 fraud with Rothstein?"
8 A. I'm sure he told me some information
9 involving his state of knowledge, but I can't
10 separate out now what different people told me. All
11 I remember is the totality of the conclusion that I
12 reached based on what they told me.
13 BY MR. EDWARDS:
14 Q. What specifically did he tell you, if you
15 remember?
16 MR. SCOTT: Same objection standing. I
17 just wanted to make sure we have a standing
18 objection.
19 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'll give you a
20 standing objection. I understand that piece.
21 If you don't remember, you don't remember or if
22 you can't describe it, rather than going
23 through again the generalities, so try to
24 answer his specific question.
25 A. Sure. Okay. The answer is I do remember
EFTA01138060
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1 the generalities, but I don't remember the
2 particulars of that. I would be happy to try to
3 refresh my recollection.
4 MR. SCAROLA: We're going to take a short
5 break.
6 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record. The
7 time is 9:38 a.m.
8 (Recess was held from 9:38 a.m. until 9:45 a.m.)
9 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going back on the record.
10 The time is 9:45 a.m.
11 BY MR. EDWARDS:
12 Q. Did David Markus say Brad Edwards
13 participated in a major fraud with Rothstein?
14 MR. SCOTT: Objection, work product and
15 privileged.
16 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'll overrule
17 the objection.
18 MR. SCOTT: I have a question. Are we
19 taking the position that he has to answer the
20 question now and pending an appeal to the
21 judge? Is that what we're doing?
22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Or -- I will
23 reserve your right --
24 MR. SCOTT: Because you reserved on all
25 their stuff yesterday.
EFTA01138061
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1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I will reserve
2 on that, but I want him to answer the question
3 at this point. I believe that at this point,
4 given the inquiry and given the witness's
5 answers previously, that they've opened the
6 door, at least to this extent. But I will
7 reserve, but I want him to answer.
8 A. I will. I do not recall precisely what
9 David Markus or David Efron said. I do recall that
10 they -- to the best of my recollection, that they
11 both contributed to my general sense of what your
12 reputation was.
13 BY MR. EDWARDS:
14 Q. I want to only stick with David Markus and
15 then we'll move on to David Efron.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. All right. Did David Markus say anything
18 along the lines of, close to, Brad Edwards
19 participated in a major fraud with Rothstein?
20 MR. SCOTT: Same objection.
21 A. My best recollection is that he said
22 something along those lines. He certainly said
23 something that led me to that conclusion.
24 BY MR. EDWARDS:
25 Q. Did he tell you to look into a court file
EFTA01138062
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1 or did he tell you Brad Edwards participated in a
2 major fraud with Rothstein?
3 MR. SIMPSON: We have a continuing
4 objection on this, and also object to the form
5 of that one.
6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Yeah, well, the
7 form I'm not going to rule on, but the form is
8 awkward, at best.
9 MR. SIMPSON: We just want in the record
10 we have a continuing objection.
11 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Yes.
12 BY MR. EDWARDS:
13 Q. I've heard two statements. One is that
14 David Markus said to look into a court file. And
15 the other I understood you to say is, David Markus
16 told me Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud
17 with Rothstein, which is what gave the support for
18 the statement that I ultimately made about
19 Brad Edwards participating in the fabrication of
20 these allegations.
21 So I'm trying to understand, did David
22 Markus tell you that Brad Edwards participated in a
23 major fraud with Rothstein?
24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: You have a
25 continuing objection, but you can answer.
EFTA01138063
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1 A. To the best of my recollection, it's more
2 than a year ago now, he told me facts that led me to
3 conclude that you had participated in a major fraud.
4 He told me, for example, that what
5 Brad Edwards -- that what Rothstein was selling were
6 fake Edwards cases made up by people who didn't
7 exist.
8 He told me -- I think it was he who told
9 me, but I can't be sure, that you were a protege,
10 that you had offices that were very close to each
11 other, that the fraud was very similar to what was
12
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SEVENTEENTH JUDICIAL
CIRCUIT IN AND FOR BROWARD COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO.: CACE 15-000072
BRADLEY J. EDWARDS and PAUL G.
CASSELL,
Plaintiffs,
VS.
ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ,
Defendant.
VIDEOTAPE CONTINUED DEPOSITION OF
ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ
VOLUME 5
Pages 648 through 781
Wednesday, January 13, 2016
9:04 a.m. - 11:59 a.m.
Tripp Scott
110 Southeast 6th Street
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
Stenographically Reported By:
Kimberly Fontalvo, RPR, CLR
Realtime Systems Administrator
EFTA01138026
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1 APPEARANCES:
2
On behalf of Plaintiffs:
3
SEARCY, DENNEY, SCAROLA
4 BARNHART & SHIPLEY, P.A.
2139 Palm Beach Lakes Boulevard
5 West Palm Beach, Florida 33402-3626
BY: JACK SCAROLA, ESQ.
6
7
8 On behalf of Defendant:
9 COLE, SCOTT & KISSANE, P.A.
Dadeland Centre II - Suite 1400
10 9150 South Dadeland Boulevard
Miami, Florida 33156
11 BY: THOMAS EMERSON SCOTT, JR., ESQ.
12 BY: STEVEN SAFRA, ESQ. (Via phone)
13 --and
14 SWEDER & ROSS, LLP
131 Oliver Street
15 Boston, MA 02110
BY: KENNETH A. SWEDER, ESQ.
16
17 --and--
18 WILEY, REIN
17769 K Street NW
19 Washington, DC 20006
BY: RICHARD A. SIMPSON, ESQ.
20
21
22
23
24
25
EFTA01138027
650
1 APPEARANCES (Continued):
2
3 On behalf of Jeffrey Epstein:
4 DARREN K. INDYKE, PLLC
575 Lexington Ave., 4th Fl.
5 New York, New York
BY: DARREN K. INDYKE, ESQ. (Via phone)
6
7 On behalf of
8 BOIES, SCHILLER & FLEXNER, LLP
401 E. Las Olas Blvd., Ste. 1200
9 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301
BY: SIGRID STONE MCCAWLEY, ESQ.
10
11
12 ALSO PRESENT:
13 Edward J. Pozzuoli, Special Master
14 Sean D. Reyes, Utah Attorney General Office
15 Marcy Martinez, Videographer
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
EFTA01138028
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1 INDEX
2
3
Examination Page
4
5 VOLUME 5 (Pages 648 - 781)
6
7 Certificate of Oath 778
Certificate of Reporter 779
8 Read and Sign Letter to Witness 780
Errata Sheet (forwarded upon execution) 781
9
10 PLAINTIFF EXHIBITS
11
12 No. Page
13 25 Transcript from Don Lemon Interview 689
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
EFTA01138029
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1 Thereupon, the proceedings continued at 9:04 a.m.
2 VIDEOGRAPHER: Are now on the video
3 record. This is the 13th day of January, 2016.
4 The time is 9:04 a.m. This is the videotaped
5 deposition of Alan Dershowitz in the matter of
6 Bradley Edwards and Paul Cassell versus Alan
7 Dershowitz.
8 My name is Marcy Martinez. I am the
9 videographer representing Above & Beyond
10 Reprographics. Will the attorneys please
11 announce their appearances for the record.
12 MR. EDWARDS: Sure. On behalf of the
13 plaintiff today Brad Edwards, Jack Scarola,
14 Brittany Henderson and Paul Cassell.
15 MR. SIMPSON: On behalf of the defendant
16 and the witness, Richard Simpson, and Thomas
17 Scott will be joining. He just walked in.
18 MS. McCAWLEY: On behalf of nonparty
19 , Sigrid McCawley and my
20 colleague Meredith Schultz from Boies, Schiller
21 & Flexner.
22 MR. INDYKE: On behalf of Jeffrey Epstein,
23 Darren Indyke.
24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Ed Pozzuoli as
25 the special master.
EFTA01138030
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1 MR. SIMPSON: Is there anyone else on the
2 phone?
3 MR. MAISEL: Yeah, this is Nicholas
4 Maisel.
5 THE COURT REPORTER: Would you raise your
6 right hand, please?
7 Do you swear or affirm that the testimony
8 you are about to give will be the truth, the
9 whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
10 THE WITNESS: I do.
11 MR. SCAROLA: Nick, would you announce the
12 capacity in which you're appearing, please.
13 MR. MAISEL: Special research assistant
14 for Alan Dershowitz.
15 MR. SCAROLA: Thank you.
16 MR. EDWARDS: Are we ready?
17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Go ahead.
18 BY MR. EDWARDS:
19 Q. Mr. Dershowitz, in January of 2015, when
20 you made the statements that Paul Cassell and Brad
21 Edwards participated in the fabricating of the
22 allegations that were made against you, what
23 information or evidence did you have in your
24 possession at that time to support those statements?
25 MR. SIMPSON: Object to the form as overly
EFTA01138031
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1 general. You may answer.
2 A. As soon as the allegations were made
3 against me, I received a series of phone calls and
4 people approached me at various events and they
5 warned me about the reputation of Bradley Edwards.
6 They told me that he had, in their view,
7 participated in a major fraud with a man named
8 Rothstein, that he should be in jail for the
9 Rothstein events.
10 I received a phone call saying that he had
11 fabricated evidence when he was a prosecutor and
12 that he had knowingly failed to investigate police
13 fabrication of evidence in a case. Generally was
14 warned about the terrible reputation that
15 Mr. Edwards had.
16 I also received phone calls telling me
17 that Mr. Cassell was a zealot, that he had used me
18 in class as a whipping -- as a kind of an object of
19 hate and painted me as a liberal supporter of the
20 exclusionary rule and opponent of the death penalty,
21 and that he had no concern for the truth when it
22 came to his zealotry on behalf of alleged victims.
23 The calls were just -- the people who told
24 me this were just -- there were so many of them that
25 it was amazing to me.
EFTA01138032
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1 And I knew, of course, that I had never
2 met -- had no contact with I knew
3 that she was lying. I read her deposition, and as
4 an experienced lawyer with 50 years of experience,
5 it was absolutely clear to me that no lay person
6 with her lack of education could have written that
7 deposition.
a I sought the advice of friends and others
9 with experience who confirmed the view that that
10 affidavit clearly had to have been written by
11 lawyers and certainly drafted by lawyers; the level
12 of detail, the structure of the sentences, all of
13 which led me conclusively to the belief that the
14 lawyers had written this affidavit.
15 I suspected from the very beginning that
16 this was part of an extortion plot in order to
17 obtain money. I later learned many, many, many
18 facts.
19 MR. EDWARDS: I object and move to strike
20 as nonresponsive and that the question calls
21 for information in his possession in January of
22 2015. I would ask for a ruling on that.
23 A. I'm providing that, but I'm giving the
24 context.
25 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Denied. Move
EFTA01138033
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1 forward.
2 A. Okay. I knew that there was a financial
3 motivation here. I also knew that Cassell and
4 Edwards had lied when they said they were
5 representing in a pro bono basis.
6 I had been informed repeatedly that they
7 were in it for the money and that they expected to
a earn a lot of money from representing her and others
9 in this case and that they pretended to be pro bono
10 lawyers when they were, in fact, money-grubbing,
11 money-hungry lawyers who had earned a very
12 substantial amount of money already on these cases
13 and were expecting to earn more money.
14 Let me think of what other information I
15 had.
16 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: At the time of
17 the question.
18 A. At the time of my statements, right.
19 It's just inconceivable to me that this
20 uneducated woman could have come up with this story
21 on her own.
22 I understood the motives of the lawyers,
23 and I was convinced, therefore, it was my opinion
24 based on my experience, in fact, that she could not
25 have done this by herself and that she had to have
EFTA01138034
657
1 worked in coordination with her lawyers.
2 Her lawyers were also at that point
3 claiming that the story should be believed because
4 of who they were. Mr. Cassell, in my view,
5 unethically signed his pleading with the University
6 of Utah imprimatur, suggesting that he was a State
7 actor, suggesting that he acted on behalf of his
8 university, something I would never do and I've
9 stopped clients from doing. When I represent
10 people, I represent them on my own behalf, not on
11 behalf of any university.
12 The very fact that the Attorney General of
13 Utah was here yesterday indicates that he may very
14 well be a State actor and subject to the rules of
15 State action rather than individual action.
16 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That portion I
17 will strike. That sentence.
18 A. Sorry.
19 BY MR. EDWARDS:
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. I'm not finished.
22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Is there any
23 other information that you haven't touched
24 on --
25 THE WITNESS: I'm trying to --
EFTA01138035
658
1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: -- as of, what,
2 January?
3 MR. EDWARDS: January of 2015.
4 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes.
5 MR. SCAROLA: January 4.
6 MR. EDWARDS: January 4, 2015.
7 A. Okay, that's the question. But, of
8 course, I made a series of statements that continued
9 beyond January 4, and they always took into account
10 new developments and new information that I had.
11 I was also aware that Mr. Cassell was
12 promoting himself as a former federal judge and
13 using his status and imprimatur in a false effort to
14 try to add credibility to the story.
15 And I did not make -- this is very
16 important to this. I did not make a single call to
17 a single newspaper or single television station, to
18 my knowledge, or a single newspaper. I was
19 constantly responding.
20 MR. SCAROLA: That's not responsive.
21 A. Excuse me. In the last deposition --
22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No, no.
23 A. -- there was an interruption by
24 Mr. Scarola that I want to put on the record.
25 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No, no, no, no,
EFTA01138036
659
1 no, no, no. No. Respond to the question that
2 was answered and go ahead because I haven't
3 heard any objection yet.
4 MR. EDWARDS: I'm objecting to all of this
5 as being nonresponsive to the question.
6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Is there
7 anything else that you would like to add to the
8 answer?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 A. When the newspapers called me, they all
11 asked me the following question --
12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Was this in
13 January?
14 A. This was in January.
15 BY MR. EDWARDS:
16 Q. The question on the table is --
17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on one
18 second.
19 A. I'm going to tell you.
20 MR. EDWARDS: What information that
21 Mr. Dershowitz had in January 4, 2015, when he
22 made the statement that Paul Cassell and Brad
23 Edwards fabricated the allegations against him.
24 MR. SIMPSON: The question was about in
25 January of 2015.
EFTA01138037
660
1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That's what it
2 was. That was the original question, which is
3 why he was afforded a tremendous amount of
4 latitude.
5 MR. EDWARDS: Understood.
6 A. And I got continuing information all
7 through January and amended my statements as
8 consistent with the information that I got.
9 The newspapers called me. They all said
10 to me, why would anybody make a false allegation if
11 he's a former Federal judge, if he's a professor, if
12 he's a distinguished trial lawyer?
13 Clearly the -- on the 4th of December,
14 talking about that day, that's the day on which
15 Mr. Cassell wrote to ABC
16 BY MR. EDWARDS:
17 Q. January.
18 A. January 4, 2015, that's the date on which
19 Mr. Cassell wrote to ABC News asking them to
20 publicize his client's story and to -- and again
21 making it clear to ABC who he was and what he -- and
22 who he had been and what offices he had held.
23 And so it was clear to me at that point,
24 and through January it became clearer and clearer
25 that she could not have done this on her own, that
EFTA01138038
661
1 she had to have sat with her lawyers and concocted
2 this story, added the kind of detail to the story
3 that would make a lie seem plausible and credible.
4 And I think that any reasonable lawyer reading that
5 affidavit would have come to exactly the same
6 conclusion that I came to.
7 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Okay.
8 BY MR. EDWARDS:
9 Q. Mr. Dershowitz, when you first made the
10 statement on January 4, 2015 that Mr. Cassell and
11 Brad Edwards had participated in the fabrication of
12 these allegations, did you have before you any
13 affidavit or, as you have repeatedly called it,
14 deposition of
15 MR. SIMPSON: Object to the form. It's
16 referring to a specific statement that has not
17 been identified for the witness.
18 A. Affidavit of What I had
19 was the lawyers' statements that were included in
20 the Complaint, which they then sought to publicize
21 all around the world and got more than a thousand
22 newspapers to cover the story, every television
23 station in the world, every radio station virtually
24 in the world, based on what they themselves had
25 written, actually gives me even a greater basis,
EFTA01138039
662
1 because it wasn't at that point based on her
2 affidavit, it was based on what the lawyers had
3 said.
4 MR. EDWARDS: I object. Can I have the
5 question read back. I'm lost as to what the
6 question is anymore.
7 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Ask -- reread
8 the question.
9 COURT REPORTER: "Mr. Dershowitz, when you
10 first made the statement on January 4, 2015
11 that Mr. Cassell and Brad Edwards had
12 participated in the fabrication of these
13 allegations, did you have before you any
14 affidavit or, as you have repeatedly called it,
15 deposition of ."
16 BY MR. EDWARDS:
17 Q. Did you?
18 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: So that's the
19 question. Answer that question only.
20 MR. SCAROLA: Move to strike everything
21 else he's said.
22 A. On January 4th, to my memory, I did not
23 refer to a deposition or to whatever other word you
24 used -- what was the word?
25 MR. SIMPSON: Affidavit.
EFTA01138040
663
1 MR. EDWARDS: Affidavit.
2 A. -- if I hadn't seen it at that point. I
3 don't remember the exact day when her affidavit came
4 in. I referred obviously to the pleadings. That
5 was the allegation, the allegation in the pleadings.
6 So if I said that you and Cassell sat and
7 helped her make it up, it was based on -- at that
8 point in time, based on you and her, primarily you
9 and Cassell, because she didn't submit -- it wasn't
10 an affidavit at that point.
11 It was your words, you, that were accusing
12 me of these heinous crimes without any basis. So I
13 surely had a basis on January 4th of attributing it
14 to you because it was your signature on the
15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hold on a
16 second. So I understand, the question is what
17 did you have on January 4th --
18 MR. EDWARDS: -- 2015 to support that
19 statement.
20 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Just answer that
21 question first and then you can explain, but --
22 A. With due respect, Your Honor, I think the
23 question was, did you have the affidavit in front of
24 you.
25
EFTA01138041
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1 BY MR. EDWARDS:
2 Q. Right. Okay. Did you have the affidavit
3 or deposition of on that day?
4 A. To my recollection, I did not. I had only
5 your characterization of the accusation which you
6 were making against me.
7 Q. And in your experience as an attorney,
8 isn't it common knowledge that attorneys drafting
9 complaints or pleadings take the word of the client
10 to form the basis of that Complaint or pleading?
11 A. No, it's not common knowledge. It's
12 common knowledge that unethical lawyers of the kind
13 that your reputation told me you were help the
14 clients
15 MR. EDWARDS: I object. Move to strike as
16 nonresponsive.
17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That, I am going
18 to strike. Try -- try to answer the question.
19 A. But I think the generic answer is ethical
20 lawyers -- let me put it this way, ethical lawyers
21 should not elaborate on what a client tells them in
22 an affidavit.
23 In my experience, there's a continuum.
24 Many, many lawyers, when they see a statement by a
25 client, they'll say, no, no, no, no, could you
EFTA01138042
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1 please elaborate on that. You say you had sex with
2 him. Was it one time? Was it two times? Could it
3 have been six times? Could it have been on the
4 airplane? Could it have been -- et cetera.
5 So I think it's a continuum of the way
6 lawyers work with clients. The most ethical lawyers
7 don't change what a client says. They word for word
8 repeat what the client says.
9 The most unethical lawyers will put all of
10 their own thoughts, words, ideas if it strengthens
11 their position and strengthens their case.
12 From what I had been -- from the
13 information I knew at that time, I put you on the
14 extreme unethical end of the continuum.
15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That wasn't the
16 question, so 1 will strike the last sentence.
17 We need to get focused on answering the
18 question, so please try to do that.
19 A. Okay, I will do that.
20 BY MR. EDWARDS:
21 Q. When you first made the statements that
22 Paul Cassell and Brad Edwards fabricated the
23 allegations --
24 A. Would you read me the statement that you
25 say I made on January 4th so I can understand what
EFTA01138043
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1 you're saying?
2 Q. Do you deny making the statement that Brad
3 Edwards and Paul Cassell fabricated the allegations
4 against you?
5 A. I remember making a series of statements
6 over time. I do not remember what I said on
7 January 4th. In order to ask me what I had at the
8 time I made the statement, I need to know with
9 precision the exact statement you are referring to
10 and the exact date. I think that's a fair request.
11 Q. We'll get that for you. It would be
12 easier had you made less statements, but we'll sift
13 through them.
14 A. If would be easier if you had called
15 MR. SIMPSON: There's no question. Object
16 to the sidebar comments.
17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Yes, let's --
18 BY MR. EDWARDS:
19 Q. What are the names -- please list for me
20 all of the names of the people who told you that --
21 in quotes -- Brad Edwards was -- participated in a
22 major fraud with Rothstein. Names of people.
23 MR. INDYKE: Objection based upon
24 attorney-client, work product, common interest.
25 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Well, okay.
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1 MR. INDYKE: Instruct Alan not to answer
2 to the extent it would disclose communications
3 of who made those --
4 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Objection noted.
5 You can answer it.
6 A. What framework are you giving me in terms
7 of time?
8 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: In January.
9 BY MR. EDWARDS:
10 Q. You told me that before you made these
11 statements, one of the things that you had in your
12 possession was a series of phone calls, "a bunch of
13 people called me" --
14 A. That is right. That's true.
15 Q. -- "and told me Brad Edwards participated
16 in major fraud with Rothstein." That's the first
17 question I want answered. What are the names of
18 those people?
19 A. A number of them who called me were ones
20 who volunteered --
21 MR. SCAROLA: That's not a response to the
22 question.
23 BY MR. EDWARDS:
24 Q. What are the names?
25 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Stop, stop,
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1 please, please, please.
2 A. I'm invoking the privilege, if you would
3 allow me, please. A number of those who called me
4 called me in tandem to volunteer to be my lawyer.
5 I'll give you an example.
6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No, no, hang on.
7 A. I can't name this person because he called
8 to give me legal advice, and I -- he gave me that
9 information as part of his legal advice.
10 BY MR. EDWARDS:
11 Q. I'm not asking if one of the lawyers who
12 represented you and you have an attorney-client
13 privilege with has shared with you some information
14 that they believe to be the case.
15 I'm asking if you are using as support for
16 your statement that certain people told you and you
17 relied upon this -- and the particular "this" at
18 this point is that Brad Edward participated in a
19 major fraud with Scott Rothstein -- I want to know
20 the names of those people that you are relying upon
21 to test veracity of that statement, please. Names
22 of people.
23 A. One of the names was of a person who I was
24 seeking legal representation from, and it was part
25 of my conversation with him regarding legal
EFTA01138046
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1 representation.
2 MR. SCAROLA: That's not a name.
3 MR. EDWARDS: I'm sorry, I object and I
4 ask --
5 A. If I give you the name
6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I do think you
7 have to give the name.
8 A. Okay. The name of that person would be
9 David Markus.
10 BY MR. EDWARDS:
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. And he told me to check the docket --
13 MR. SIMPSON: Just the question.
14 BY MR. EDWARDS:
15 Q. When did David Markus call you to tell you
16 that he knew or believed that Brad Edwards
17 participated in a major fraud with Rothstein?
18 A. Within days. Within probably a day or
19 two.
20 Q. Did he tell you what it was that formed
21 the basis for that statement that he made to you
22 that you so relied upon?
23 A. I don't recall.
24 Q. Was it more than the fact that your
25 client, Jeffrey Epstein, had filed a lawsuit making
EFTA01138047
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1 those allegations?
2 A. I don't think he was aware that Jeffrey
3 Epstein had made an allegation of that kind.
4 Q. At the time when David Markus called you
5 to tell you that Brad Edwards participated in a
6 major fraud with Rothstein, did you already --
7 A. That's not
8 Q. -- have or know that Scott Rothstein had
9 testified under oath about that specific subject
10 matter?
11 A. Well, I can't imagine that you're relying
12 on Scott Rothstein's credibility.
13 Q. I'm asking, did you know?
14 MR. SIMPSON: Just answer the question.
15 BY MR. EDWARDS:
16 Q. Yes or no?
17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Did you know?
18 A. I did not know.
19 BY MR. EDWARDS:
20 Q. Did you know at that point in time that
21 the Complaint that was filed by your client, Jeffrey
22 Epstein, against Brad Edwards, making those exact
23 allegations, had been dismissed at the stage -- at
24 the point in time when David Markus was making these
25 statements to you that you so relied upon?
EFTA01138048
1 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
2 instruction.
3 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: He's --
4 MR. EDWARDS: Calls for a yes or no
5 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: He's only asked
6 if you aware that the case was dismissed at
7 that time.
8 A. I don't think I was. But a case being
9 dismissed does not mean the allegation isn't true.
10 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I understand,
11 but --
12 BY MR. EDWARDS:
13 Q. Okay. In addition to David Markus, can
14 you please complete this list of people that you
15 testified called you to tell you specifically that
16 Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud with
17 Rothstein?
18 A. So, I spoke several times during that
19 period of time at various events. And people --
20 lawyers came over to me and told me --
21 Q. I'm not asking where. Who? What are the
22 names?
23 A. I can tell you one of them --
24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: He's trying to
25 be -- I would allow him to answer it. He's
EFTA01138049
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1 trying to be responsive to the question.
2 Please proceed.
3 A. One of them was a former president or
4 chairman or at least member of the Florida Bar
5 committee who warned me about you.
6 BY MR. EDWARDS:
7 Q. Does he have a name?
8 A. I don't remember his name. I don't
9 remember his name, no. Of course he has a name, but
10 I don't remember his name.
11 Another was -- I mean -- just hard to
12 pinpoint names, but it was something that was
13 clearly in my mind that so many people were telling
14 me -- telling me to look into the case of Rothstein,
15 telling me that you were his protege.
16 Q. Okay. Is it true, then, that you have the
17 name of one person who you can identify told you
18 that Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud with
19 Rothstein?
20 A. I was also aware, of course, of the
21 Complaint that had been filed against you. And that
22 was one -- I mean, I can't comment on that because
23 of lawyer-client privilege.
24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Listen to the
25 question, Professor. Go ahead.
EFTA01138050
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1 BY MR. EDWARDS:
2 Q. Is it now your testimony that you can only
3 provide me with one name of one human being that
4 called you and told you Brad Edwards participated in
5 a major fraud with Rothstein?
6 A. I will try to think of others.
7 Probably -- I may have some notes of others. I will
8 call around and find out whether my memory is
9 correct or not.
10 MR. SIMPSON: Professor --
11 A. But I don't want to mention names without
12 being sure.
13 MR. SIMPSON: Just do you recall, as you
14 sit here, the names?
15 A. And right now, I don't recall names, other
16 than a general discussion with my lawyers. And in
17 the general discussion with my lawyers -- and I
18 don't want to get into it --
19 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Then don't do
20 it.
21 BY MR. EDWARDS:
22 Q. Are you relying upon the statements from
23 your lawyers to support this allegation that the
24 basis of your statement that Brad Edwards
25 participated in the fabrication of the allegations
EFTA01138051
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1 against you was a list of people told you
2 Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud with
3 Rothstein; and, if so, I want to know the names of
4 those lawyers that you are using to support that
5 allegation?
6 MR. SIMPSON: Well, we have asserted
7 privilege as to communications with those who
8 represented you. Please don't disclose that.
9 MR. SCAROLA: Respectfully -- pardon me --
10 the witness is the possessor of that privilege.
11 He cannot make a statement disclosing the
12 content of the communications that he is
13 relying on and then he himself assert a
14 privilege to refuse to provide further
15 information with regard to the statement that
16 he has made. We would request a ruling on the
17 record as to whether there has already been a
18 waiver.
19 A. What I said, of course, was that
20 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Excuse me. Hang
21 on a second.
22 MR. SCAROLA: We're requesting a ruling on
23 the record as to whether there has been a
24 waiver as a consequence of what has already
25 been stated.
EFTA01138052
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1 MR. SIMPSON: He did not testify that
2 he -- we went through long questions and
3 answers in response to Mr. Edwards' questions.
4 He did not say he was relying on what his
5 lawyers told him in this case.
6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I think that
7 there is -- let me say this: I think the
8 question was from Mr. Edwards whether he relied
9 on statements from his lawyers. I do think
10 that you have to answer that question.
11 A. I would say that the statements from my
12 lawyers played a small role. The larger role
13 BY MR. EDWARDS:
14 Q. I want to know about that small role.
15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on one
16 second. So now proceed.
17 BY MR. EDWARDS:
18 Q. Sure. I would like to know whose
19 statements it was that played a small role in your
20 belief that Brad Edwards fabricated cases based on
21 the statements that they made to you that
22 Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud with
23 Rothstein. What are the name of those individuals?
24 A. It's a complicated question here. So
25 there are three issues that I understand. One, what
EFTA01138053
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1 was the basis for my belief that you had fabricated
2 along with Mr. Cassell --
3 Q. No, I'm asking for names of human beings.
4 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No, let me stop
5 you. My understanding of your testimony was
6 that whatever you received -- whatever
7 information you received from your lawyers
8 played a small role. That's what you testified
9 to.
10 THE WITNESS: That's right.
11 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Correctly,
12 Mr. Edwards then followed up on that question
13 and said, let's go into that small role.
14 THE WITNESS: Okay.
15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: So now . . .
16 BY MR. EDWARDS:
17 Q. What are the names of those people that
18 gave you this information that played a small role
19 in --
20 A. In what?
21 Q. in your belief that Brad Edwards had
22 participated in a major fraud with Rothstein which
23 somehow furthered your belief that Brad Edwards and
24 Paul Cassell fabricated the allegations against you?
25 So I'm asking for names of the people.
EFTA01138054
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1 A. So my best recollection, and it's now over
2 a year, is that that was a subject of conversation
3 with David Markus. It was also the subject of
4 conversation with --
5 MS. McCAWLEY: I'm sorry, I didn't hear
6 that. If he's talking about conversations
7 MR. EDWARDS: He said Davis Markus.
8 MS. McCAWLEY: I'm sorry. I couldn't
9 hear.
10 A. Another lawyer -- other people sent me
11 newspaper clippings.
12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No, no, no.
13 A. Lawyer. Okay. The other lawyer who told
14 me about that was a lawyer named David Efron.
15 MR. SCAROLA: First of all, make sure the
16 list is complete, and then you want to know
17 every one.
18 BY MR. EDWARDS:
19 Q. Is that it? David Markus, David Efron?
20 A. Those are the two I remember offhand.
21 Plus, as I said, when I spoke I spoke
22 at several events in January --
23 Q. Right now --
24 A. -- and lawyers came -- people
25 lawyers --
EFTA01138055
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1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let me stop you.
2 BY MR. EDWARDS:
3 Q. Let me get to the next question.
4 A. Yes.
5 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let me ask the
6 witness, the question is limited to --
7 MR. EDWARDS: Yes, the lawyers who played
8 a small role.
9 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: The small role
10 around the lawyers, and I think the followup
11 question was, you've mentioned a second lawyer,
12 is there anybody else on that list?
13 BY MR. EDWARDS:
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Two lawyers, yes. The lawyers who came
16 over to me at the events that I spoke at.
17 Q. What are their names?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. How do you know that they're lawyers?
20 A. Because it was a lawyers' event. And they
21 were trial lawyers. This was all trial lawyers at
22 the event. Florida trial lawyers.
23 Q. You don't have the names of any of them;
24 is that right?
25 A. I can describe one of them as somebody who
EFTA01138056
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1 came over to me and told me -- he may have given me
2 a card, which I conceivably may have at home, told
3 me that he was a former official of the Florida Bar
4 and was outraged at what had happened and told me to
5 please look into your background and then told me
6 about your background.
7 Q. Dade Markus, is he a former student of
8 yours?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. Did he have anything to do with the
11 investigation into the -- Scott Rothstein or any of
12 that?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. David Efron, did he have any inside
15 personal information into who was or who was not
16 culpable in any aspect of the fraud with Scott
17 Rothstein?
18 A. I don't know.
19 MR. SCAROLA: You want to know exactly
20 what they said.
21 BY MR. EDWARDS:
22 Q. Before we go to the next statement that
23 apparently formed your basis for believing that
24 Brad Edwards and Paul Cassell fabricated the
25 allegations against you, can you tell me exactly
EFTA01138057
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1 word for word as you remember it what David Markus
2 and then what David Efron told you --
3 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let's start with
4 the first one.
5 BY MR. EDWARDS:
6 Q. -- what David Markus told you about the
7 participation of Brad Edwards in a fraud with
8 Rothstein?
9 MR. SIMPSON: We assert privilege to the
10 extent that it's someone who he was getting
11 legal advice from.
12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'm going to
13 allow the question. You can answer over
14 objection.
15 A. All I can tell you is what the total
16 information I had at that point. I can't now, as I
17 sit here, separate out what Markus said, what Efron
18 said, what the lawyers who I met at the events said.
19 I can give you a totality of what the conclusion was
20 that was reached. Each of them contributed
21 something.
22 BY MR. EDWARDS:
23 Q. Where were you when you received this
24 communication from David Markus about his
25 understanding or belief that Brad Edwards
EFTA01138058
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1 participated in a major fraud with Rothstein?
2 A. In my apartment, I suspect.
3 Q. Do you remember this?
4 A. I remember being in my apartment when the
5 story broke and getting call after call after call
6 from lawyers.
7 Q. Was this a telephone call with David
8 Markus --
9 A. Probably.
10 Q. -- or an in-person meeting?
11 A. It was -- well, I had both. I had both
12 with him. I had a telephone call and then we had a
13 meeting.
14 Q. And in this, did he describe to you what
15 support he had for this statement that he was making
16 to you regarding the involvement of Brad Edwards in
17 a major fraud with Rothstein?
18 MR. SCOTT: Objection, work product on
19 this whole line of questioning. He has the
20 name. If we're going to go beyond this, we
21 need a judicial ruling from the judge and you.
22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Well, I'm going
23 to allow the witness to answer it at this point
24 and overrule the objection without prejudice.
25 A. What is the question again?
EFTA01138059
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1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Well, go back to
2 the question.
3 COURT REPORTER: "And in this, did he
4 describe to you what support he had for this
5 statement that he was making to you regarding
6 the involvement of Brad Edwards in a major
7 fraud with Rothstein?"
8 A. I'm sure he told me some information
9 involving his state of knowledge, but I can't
10 separate out now what different people told me. All
11 I remember is the totality of the conclusion that I
12 reached based on what they told me.
13 BY MR. EDWARDS:
14 Q. What specifically did he tell you, if you
15 remember?
16 MR. SCOTT: Same objection standing. I
17 just wanted to make sure we have a standing
18 objection.
19 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'll give you a
20 standing objection. I understand that piece.
21 If you don't remember, you don't remember or if
22 you can't describe it, rather than going
23 through again the generalities, so try to
24 answer his specific question.
25 A. Sure. Okay. The answer is I do remember
EFTA01138060
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1 the generalities, but I don't remember the
2 particulars of that. I would be happy to try to
3 refresh my recollection.
4 MR. SCAROLA: We're going to take a short
5 break.
6 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record. The
7 time is 9:38 a.m.
8 (Recess was held from 9:38 a.m. until 9:45 a.m.)
9 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going back on the record.
10 The time is 9:45 a.m.
11 BY MR. EDWARDS:
12 Q. Did David Markus say Brad Edwards
13 participated in a major fraud with Rothstein?
14 MR. SCOTT: Objection, work product and
15 privileged.
16 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'll overrule
17 the objection.
18 MR. SCOTT: I have a question. Are we
19 taking the position that he has to answer the
20 question now and pending an appeal to the
21 judge? Is that what we're doing?
22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Or -- I will
23 reserve your right --
24 MR. SCOTT: Because you reserved on all
25 their stuff yesterday.
EFTA01138061
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1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I will reserve
2 on that, but I want him to answer the question
3 at this point. I believe that at this point,
4 given the inquiry and given the witness's
5 answers previously, that they've opened the
6 door, at least to this extent. But I will
7 reserve, but I want him to answer.
8 A. I will. I do not recall precisely what
9 David Markus or David Efron said. I do recall that
10 they -- to the best of my recollection, that they
11 both contributed to my general sense of what your
12 reputation was.
13 BY MR. EDWARDS:
14 Q. I want to only stick with David Markus and
15 then we'll move on to David Efron.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. All right. Did David Markus say anything
18 along the lines of, close to, Brad Edwards
19 participated in a major fraud with Rothstein?
20 MR. SCOTT: Same objection.
21 A. My best recollection is that he said
22 something along those lines. He certainly said
23 something that led me to that conclusion.
24 BY MR. EDWARDS:
25 Q. Did he tell you to look into a court file
EFTA01138062
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1 or did he tell you Brad Edwards participated in a
2 major fraud with Rothstein?
3 MR. SIMPSON: We have a continuing
4 objection on this, and also object to the form
5 of that one.
6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Yeah, well, the
7 form I'm not going to rule on, but the form is
8 awkward, at best.
9 MR. SIMPSON: We just want in the record
10 we have a continuing objection.
11 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Yes.
12 BY MR. EDWARDS:
13 Q. I've heard two statements. One is that
14 David Markus said to look into a court file. And
15 the other I understood you to say is, David Markus
16 told me Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud
17 with Rothstein, which is what gave the support for
18 the statement that I ultimately made about
19 Brad Edwards participating in the fabrication of
20 these allegations.
21 So I'm trying to understand, did David
22 Markus tell you that Brad Edwards participated in a
23 major fraud with Rothstein?
24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: You have a
25 continuing objection, but you can answer.
EFTA01138063
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1 A. To the best of my recollection, it's more
2 than a year ago now, he told me facts that led me to
3 conclude that you had participated in a major fraud.
4 He told me, for example, that what
5 Brad Edwards -- that what Rothstein was selling were
6 fake Edwards cases made up by people who didn't
7 exist.
8 He told me -- I think it was he who told
9 me, but I can't be sure, that you were a protege,
10 that you had offices that were very close to each
11 other, that the fraud was very similar to what was
12