EFTA00115899.pdf

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 JUNE 15, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00115899 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 NONE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00115900 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 1 MR. : The recorder is on. It 2 is Tuesday, June 15, 2021 and the time is 5:57 3 p.m. 4 MR. : My name is 5 I'm a Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 6 Justicer Office of the Inspector General, New 7 York Field Office and these are my credentials. 8 This interview is with Federal Bureau of 9 Prisons Correctional Officer, Lieutenant - can 10 you state your name? 11 MR. 12 MR. : First name? 13 MR. 14 MR. . And is being 15 conducted as part of an official U.S. 16 Department of Justicer Office of the Inspector 17 General investigation. Today is June 15th and 18 the time is 5:58 p.m. The interview is being 19 conducted at , Deer Park, New 20 York. Also present are DOJ OIG Senior Special 21 Agent 22 MR. , and again, 23 these are my credentials. 24 MR. : Uh-huh. 25 MR. : This interview will be EFTA00115901 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4 1 recorded by me, Special Agent 2 Could everyone please identify themselves for 3 the record and spell your last name, to start? 4 Again, I am DOJ Special Agent 6 MR. : My name is Senior Special 7 Agent 8 MR. : Lieutenant . 10 MR. : As I stated before, this is 11 an official DOJ investigation into the death of 12 inmate Jeffery Epstein and the timing 13 surrounding that and you're being asked to 14 voluntarily provide answers to our questions. 15 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with 16 the DOJ OIG? 17 MR. : Yes. 18 MR. : As part of our procedure, I'm 19 going to provide you with DOJ OIG form 3226 20 226-2. I'm going to read the form out loud to 21 you and give you a chance to review it also. 22 "United States Department of Justice, Office of 23 the Inspector General Warnings and Assurances 24 to Employee Requested to Provide Information on 25 a Voluntary Basis. You are being asked to EFTA00115902 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 1 provide information as part of an investigation 2 being conducted by the Office of Inspector 3 General. This investigation is being conducted 4 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 5 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 6 performance failure and security failure. This 7 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do 8 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary 9 action will be taken against you if you choose 10 not to answer any questions. Any statement you 11 furnish may be used as evidence in any future 12 criminal proceedings or agency disciplinary 13 proceeding or both." Now the waiver for you. 14 "I understand the warnings and assurances 15 stated above and I am willing to make a 16 statement and answer questions. No promises or 17 threats have been made to me and no pressure or 18 coercion of any kind has been used against me." 19 Do you understand that? 20 MR. : Uh-huh. 21 MR. : Do you wish to proceed with 22 the interview? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Please review the document 25 and once you review the document, please sign EFTA00115903 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 where it says, "Employee signature." 2 MR. : Do you need a pen? 3 MR. : I have. Thank you. 4 MR. : There's a4e line that says, 5 "Employee signature," -- 6 MR. : Uh-huh. 7 MR. : -- and sign your name there 8 and below there can you please print your name? 9 MR. : Thank you sir. 10 MR. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : I'm signing the signature of 12 the Office of Inspector General's Special 13 Agent. 14 MR. : Thank you for signing the 15 document, both of you, and for dating it 16 6/15/21 at 6:02 p.m. I am signing my name and 17 signature of witness and printing my name, name 18 of witness. 19 MR. : Before we start the 20 interview, I'd like to place you under oath, 21 Mr. Can you please raise your right 22 hand? Do you swear to tell the truth and 23 nothing but the truth during this interview? 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : Thank you. EFTA00115904 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : I do. 2 MR. : Please let me know if you do 3 not understand any questions I ask, I'll repeat 4 it and I'll try to rephrase it for you. Okay? 5 What is your current home address? 6 MR. , Deer Park, 7 New York, 11729. 8 MR. : Your date of birth? 9 MR. 10 MR. : And what is your social 11 security number? 12 MR. : He doesn't need to 13 provide that if he doesn't want to. Would you 14 mind for the record, can you show us your 15 credentials again and then we can use that as 16 verification for your - all right. Thank you, 17 sir, for showing your credentials. I'm looking 18 at the U.S. Department of Justice Federal 19 Bureau of Prisons law enforcement officer 20 credentials, certify that is a 21 Lieutenant at the MCC New York, New York. 22 see a picture that matches the gentleman that 23 is sitting in front of us. 24 MR. : Thank you. 25 MR. : You're welcome. EFTA00115905 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 1 MR. : Mr. , what's your highest 2 level of education? 3 MR. : I have a —bachelors of science 4 degree. 5 MR. : In what subject? 6 MR. : Community Services. 7 MR. : What college did you receive 8 that from? 9 MR. : Empire State College. 10 MR. : What year did you receive it? 11 MR. : 2010, May. 12 MR. : 2010, May. Okay. What did 13 you do prior to working for the BOP? 14 MR. : I was in the military and I 15 worked in a law firm. 16 MR. : Thank you for your service. 17 What branch of the military? 18 MR. : United States Navy Reserves. 19 MR. : How long were you in the 20 military for? 21 MR. : 20 years, 23 days, and 21 hours 22 or something like that. 23 MR. : What was your position and 24 title when you -. 25 MR. : I was an E-6 ship service man, EFTA00115906 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 first class petty officer. 2 MR. : And are you still active in 3 the military? 4 MR. : No, I'm retired. 5 MR. : Thank you. 6 MR. : And did you retire in 7 2019? 8 MR. : Yes. 9 MR. : October? 10 MR. : October 2019. 11 MR. : How long have you served with 12 the Federal Bureau of Prisons? 13 MR. : Thirteen years. 14 MR. : Thirteen years? And what was 15 the entry on duty date? 16 MR. : July 22 - I mean, January 22nd, 17 2008. 18 MR. : Did you graduate from BOP 19 training? 20 MR. : Yes. 21 MR. : What year? 22 MR. : 2008, March. 23 MR. : Okay. When and where was 24 your first office assignment with the BOP? 25 MR. : Brooklyn, MDC Brooklyn. EFTA00115907 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : That was in 2008? 2 MR. : Yes. 3 MR. : And what positions - how long 4 did you stay at the MDC for? 5 MR. : Five and a half years. 6 MR. : Five and a half? 7 MR. : I stayed there from 2008— teo 8 October 5, 2013. 9 MR. : Where did you go in October? 10 MR. : MCC New York. 11 MR. : Was it a promotion or 12 lateral? 13 MR. : Lateral. 14 MR. : Okay. When did you get - 15 what was the next step, promotion that you got? 16 MR. : GS-8. 17 MR. : To what position? 18 MR. : MCC New York, Senior Officer 19 Specialist. 20 MR. : And what year was that? 21 MR. : Think, I'm going toe say 2015? 22 MR. : Okay. And what was the next 23 promotion after that? 24 MR. : GS-9. 25 MR. : GS-9 what? What was the EFTA00115908 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 title? 2 MR. : I was a Counselor. 3 MR. : Okay. And after that? 4 MR. : GS-11 Lieutenant. 5 MR. : When did you become a 6 Lieutenant? 7 MR. : I was temp Lieutenant in 2016. 8 Then, I got 2000, I think `17, I got promoted 9 to - orr `18 I got promoted to GS-11. 10 MR. : What was your position at the 11 MCC on August 9th and 10th -- 12 MR. : I was a -. 13 MR. : -- of 2019? 14 MR. : I was a Lieutenant. 15 MR. : I'll read it. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : So we have a - is it 18 correct that you were interviewed already by 19 the FBI and the OIG? 20 MR. : Yes. 21 MR. : Regarding the matter 22 leading up to Epstein's death on August 9th -. 23 MR. : Correct. 24 MR. : Great. Thank you. I'm 25 just going to read the report that was created EFTA00115909 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 from that interview. It is an FBI report so I 2 can't physically hand it to you but because the 3 OIG was there, it's our information to ask, 4 that's why I'll be able to read it to you. 5 Just, as I'm reading it, just let me know if 6 there's anything that's inaccurate and then 7 I'll probably stop along the way to just kind 8 of ask for a little bit more collaborations. 9 It says, "Prior to employment with the Bureau 10 of Prisons, was a Paralegal at Skadden Law 11 Firm." 12 MR. : Skadden. 13 MR. : Skadden, S-K-A-D-D-E-N. 14 MR. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : "He worked litigation, 16 pro Bono, mergers and acquisitions for 17 approximately 10 years." And was that 18 approximately from 1998 to 2008? 19 MR. : Approximately. 20 MR. : Okay. has also 21 been an enlisted Navy Reservist for the last 20 22 years. was employed as a Corrections 23 Officer with the BOP in June 1999 at the 24 Metropolitan Detention Center herein after 25 MDC," is that correct? EFTA00115910 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : It was January. 2 MR. : January of 1999? 3 MR. : Where? 4 MR. This is saying that I 5 don't think this was correct. So, it says that 6 you were with the MDC since June of 1999. 7 MR. : I was there - no, not '99, no. 8 MR. : I thought you said in 9 2008 you started. 10 MR. : 2008 I said I started. Yeah, 11 not '99. 12 MR. : All right. So you 13 started with the MDC - with the BOP and at the 14 MDC in -- 15 MR. : 2000 -. 16 MR. • -- January of 2008. 17 MR. '08. Yes. 18 MR. Okay. transitioned 19 to the BOP Metropolitan Correction Center, or 20 the MCC, on," it says, "October 5, 2013." 21 MR. : Yes. 22 MR. : "He was later promoted to 23 the rank of Lieutenant on July 8, 2018." 24 MR. : Yeah, July sometime. 25 MR. : Okay. was the EFTA00115911 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 1 Special Housing Unit, or SHU, Lieutenant for 2 approximately 90 days since Lieutenants rotate 3 throughout the MCC every 90 days." Is that 4 correct? 5 MR. : Uh-huh. 6 MR. : According to , his 7 duties and responsibilities were as follows." 8 So prior to us going on. So you were 90 days 9 up until this incident? Were you just about to 10 rotate out of the SHU then? 11 MR. : No. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : I was just still the SHU 14 Lieutenant. 15 MR. : So were you -. 16 MR. : So -. 17 MR. : So the way that this 18 reads is almost like you were only there for 90 19 days. Were you there for 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : -- longer than 90 days? 22 MR. : Well, I was taken out because I 23 was out on an injury. 24 MR. : Prior to that though, how 25 long were you the SHU Lieutenant? EFTA00115912 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 1 MR. : Yeah, for about - because we 2 switch. I was on the desk and just before, I 3 think, like program review or something like 4 that, after program review, they put me up 5 there. 6 MR. : All right. But all of 7 July and August of 2000 -- 8 MR. : Yeah, I was - yeah. 9 MR. : -- and `19, so, okay. So 10 you were the SHU Lieutenant for all - at least 11 July and 12 MR. : Uh-huh. 13 MR. : -- August and a little 14 bit prior. 15 MR. : Yeah. Uh-huh. 16 MR. : So it says, "According to 17 duties and responsibilities are as 18 follows. Control max wing, 10 south and 19 oversee the regular SHU." 20 MR. : Uh-huh. 21 MR. : And 10 south, my 22 understanding is that's the very high profile 23 inmates that have one inmate per cell, there's 24 constant supervision by cameras on them -- 25 MR. : Cameras. EFTA00115913 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- at all times? 2 MR. : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : Okay. Maybe like 4 terrorists? 5 MR. : Uh-huh. 6 MR. : People that go into those 7 - okay. You supervise employees, you control 8 moves, you oversee segregation reviews 9 hereinafter referred to as SROs. "Ensure 10 inmates are given what they have coming." What 11 does that mean? "Ensure inmate -. 12 MR. : That means, whatever the 13 institution - if they have - they need soap, 14 they get soap. If they need toilet paper, they 15 get toilet paper. If they need a pen, pad to 16 write on, they get it. 17 MR. : So the supplies that 18 they're -- 19 MR. : Supplies that they -- 20 MR. : -- required, you ensure - 21 22 MR. : -- that - I ensure that they -. 23 MR. : -- that they receive what 24 they -- 25 MR. : Yes. EFTA00115914 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- what they require. 2 MR. : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : Okay. And then the next 4 thing that they wrote was, "A lot." So I'm 5 assuming what they meant is you have a lot of 6 responsibilities. 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : is generally the 9 Monday through Friday, 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. 10 shift supervisor." 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : Were you working a lot of 13 overtime there? 14 MR. : Yes. 15 MR. : And when you were doing 16 your OT, were you also in the SHU? 17 MR. : Yes. 18 MR. : Okay. Would that be -. 19 MR. : Because as the Operations 20 Lieutenant, you've got to go to Special 21 Housing. 22 MR. : Okay. So if you were 23 doing OT, you weren't necessarily the SHU 24 Lieutenant, you were the Operations Lieutenant 25 EFTA00115915 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : -- you were the 3 Operations Lieutenant, but you covered the SHU. 4 MR. : Or activities, yes. 5 MR. : So you were - you would - 6 7 MR. : So. 8 MR. : So during your OT shifts, 9 you typically would do either Aectivities or 10 Operations Lieutenant? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : And were you doing that 13 almost on like a daily basis up until then? 14 MR. : Something like that. Uh-huh. 15 MR. : And would it typically be 16 like the morning watch or the evening watch or 17 18 MR. : Any shift. 19 MR. : Any? 20 MR. : Yes. 21 MR. : Was a lot of it mandated 22 or voluntary or both? 23 MR. : It was - I mean, it was short, 24 so, you know. 25 MR. : Like, like, like EFTA00115916 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 1 forbidding, you've served as both Activities 2 and the Ops -- 3 MR. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : -- Lieutenant, so you're 5 familiar with those duties and 6 responsibilities, correct? 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : Great. 9 MR. : Uh-huh. 10 MR. : All right. So, "- 11 advised that there is a mandatory quarterly 12 training in the SHU program for BOP employees." 13 Now, have you ever conducted that training? 14 MR. : Yes. 15 MR. : You've participated? 16 MR. : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : Okay, great. And do you 18 know of the individuals that were working in 19 the SHU for their quarterly assignments had 20 also received that training at the time? 21 MR. : Some have received that 22 training. 23 MR. : Possibly not all? 24 MR. : But possibly not all. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00115917 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 MR. : But if they didn't, you know, 2 we went around and we showed them, you know, 3 showed them training. 4 MR. : Okay. So anybody that 5 hadn't gone -- 6 MR. : So -- 7 MR. : -- to that training -. 8 MR. : -- people that was assigned 9 that were supposed to be there, went to the 10 training. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : And if they didn't go for 13 whatever reason, if they was out sick or 14 whatever, I tried to get them trained, you 15 know, give them the PowerPoint and go over the 16 training with them, you know, hands on. 17 MR. : Now, are you the person 18 that would present the training at the 19 quarterly training? 20 MR. : Yes. 21 MR. : Okay. So as the -. 22 MR. : Normally the SHU Lieutenant 23 does. 24 MR. : Okay. So you provided 25 probably the last quarterly training and then EFTA00115918 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 1 anyone who didn't attend that training, you 2 provided them personal training yourself? 3 MR. : Yes. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : But I don't know if I did it. 6 The prior SHU Lieutenant probably gave the 7 training. 8 MR. : Okay. Had you done it in 9 the past? 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : Uh-huh. 13 MR. : "He also reviews 292 14 forms which track an inmate's meals, 15 recreation, medical attention and showers." Is 16 that like the forms that go into their 17 personnel file? 18 MR. : Yes. Uh-huh. 19 MR. : And those files in the 20 SHU, they're kept in the SHU? 21 MR. : Yes. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : The on thely computer - they're 24 supposed to be printed out every week -- 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00115919 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 1 MR. : -- because you've got to go 2 backwards. 3 MR. : And as I'm told, they're 4 printed out on Sundays? 5 MR. Yes. They're supposed to be 6 printed out like on Sunday morning watch. 7 MR. • : Okay. 8 MR. : Put into the file and, you 9 know, because it's a new week. The new week -- 10 MR. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. is going to start because 12 that morning is breakfast. So it's breakfast, 13 and it goes B-D - wait, how does it go, 14 breakfast, lunch, dinner, so it goes B-L-D. 15 So, breakfast is first at 6 o'clock, or, you 16 know, 5:44, whatever time the count cleared is 17 breakfast. And then, lunch and then dinner. 18 MR. : Okay. So you said on 19 Sundays, is there typically one person that 20 works on Sundays or is it -- 21 MR. : No, it's 22 MR. : -- whoever is working -- 23 MR. : -- always -. 24 MR. : -- on that side? 25 MR. : It's always - yeah. It's EFTA00115920 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 always supposed to be two up there 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : -- on - on -. 4 MR. : But it's not like 5 typically the same two is what I'm asking? 6 MR. : Yeah, no. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : Huh-uh. 9 MR. : So it's whoever is 10 working that shift -- 11 MR. : Whoever is working. 12 MR. : -- on a Sunday. 13 MR. : Yeah. Hopefully, you know, 14 well, we had a steady OIC, but he got out, he 15 got injured and was out sick, so, you know, 16 it's by the luck of the draw, whoever is 17 available. 18 MR. : Okay. So who was the 19 officer in charge or OIC who got injured? 20 MR. : For morning watch, I don't 21 know. 22 MR. : No, no, no, who got 23 injured, who got out? 24 MR. : Oh, it was (Phonetic 25 Sp. *00:17:46), I think it was, but he was - EFTA00115921 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 yeah, he was out. 2 MR. : And about when did he go 3 out? 4 MR. : I don't remember. 5 MR. : All right. But in 6 August, do you remember if there was an OIC? 7 MR. : I don't remember. 8 MR. : You don't remember? 9 Sure. 10 MR. : I have to look at the roster - 11 I don't -. 12 MR. : Absolutely. Do you have 13 the rosters? Just when we ask some of these 14 questions, you might want to just be able to 15 kind of look at this to be able to kind of 16 refresh your memory. 17 MR. : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : And so, Special Agent 19 is giving you, or I will be giving you 20 the - one is going to be the duty assignment 21 roster from August 9th and the other one is 22 going to be from August 10th. 23 MR. : Uh-huh. 24 MR. : I'm sure you're familiar 25 with these. EFTA00115922 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 1 MR. : Uh-huh. 2 MR. : Sure. So you'll be able 3 to like if -- 4 MR. : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : -- the SHU is towards the 6 bottom and then who was on duty. It'll show 7 you the Oeps, you know, the Oeps Lieutenant and 8 the Activities Lieutenant, so on and so forth. 9 All right. So, it says, "Every SHU inmate has 10 an associated 292 form as long as they are in 11 the SHU population." 12 MR. : Uh-huh. 13 MR. : "Once they rotate to 14 another population, the form is invalid and no 15 longer exists." Now, what does that mean? Do 16 we—they destroy the forms? 17 MR. : No. So what happens is, okay, 18 the way the program operates is, once you come 19 out of the SHU program, like say for instance, 20 if you key to suicide watch area, your original 21 form, or whatever form, is, if it didn't get 22 printed, if there's a form there, but that 23 stops, the time stops. 24 MR. : You mean they create a 25 new form for every housing unit you go into is EFTA00115923 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 what you're saying. 2 MR. : No. Only 292s are in the 3 Special Housing Unit, it's not 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : -- in general population. 6 MR. : Okay. So is there -- 7 MR. : So 8 MR. : -- one in suicide watch 9 and -. 10 MR. : No. 11 MR. : No. 12 MR. : On suicide watch, there's 13 booklets and there's - it says, namcs ofthere's 14 a form where it shows, did the inmate eat? Did 15 the inmate, you know, get a shower? Like that. 16 MR. : Okay. But what does it 17 mean when it says that they wrote, "Once they 18 rotate to another population the form is 19 invalid and no longer exists?" Are they 20 referring -. 21 MR. : Is not in the program. They're 22 not in the program so I cannot -. 23 MR. : It doesn't continue. 24 MR. : It doesn't continue, yeah. 25 MR. : But it doesn't, like, get EFTA00115924 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 destroyed, it remains 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : -- in their file. 4 MR. : If it gets printed. 5 MR. : But it -. 6 MR. : But, like, say - once they come 7 off the SHU program, right? I mean, you could 8 go back and see if the individual was there. 9 But once they come off the program, I cannot 10 create a document for you. 11 MR. : Sure. So are the 12 documents maintained electronically? 13 MR. : It's a program, so I don't - as 14 long as you in the SHU program, in the roster, 15 because SENTRY and BectBER—BOPWare (Chonctic 16 Cp. *00:20:13) talk to each other. Right? And 17 so what happens is if a person is keyed into 18 SHU, there's a little box you have to press. 19 MR. : Uh-huh. 20 MR. : In BOTLEERBOPWare, and it's 21 timestamped. So, once that person is there, it 22 creates an AD order, administrative detention 23 order. Once that administrative detention 24 order is set, the Lieutenant writes in there 25 why the individual was placed in Special EFTA00115925 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Housing -- 2 MR. : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : -- has to be a reason. If that 4 form is not filled out, the Captain gets an 5 email from the region saying there's a blank AD 6 order in here, right? So I used to go in there 7 and look every morning to see if somebody, 8 whoever got placed in Special Housing to see 9 what the charges was or if that form was filled 10 out. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : If that form wasn't filled out, 13 I look at the Lieutenant's log or I call the 14 Lieutenant, whoever, you know, "Why did this 15 inmate get locked up?" Normally when I do my 16 rounds, I ask the inmates, "Why are you up 17 here?" Some of them lie and they, "I don't 18 know why I'm up here," whatever. But then I 19 find out why they up there, then I know why. 20 It could be SIS investigation, it could be 21 because of a fight. 22 MR. : Sure. 23 MR. : It could be multiple reasons 24 why the AD order wasn't created. However, we 25 try to create and do the AD order to place the EFTA00115926 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 1 inmate so that he can have a 292 and he'd be on 2 the SHU report. 3 MR. : So what I'm asking though 4 is -- 5 MR. : Uh-huh. 6 MR. : -- once it's created, 7 once they're there and once this 292 is 8 created, even if it's not printed out, is it 9 maintained in the system? 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : And is it ever deleted? 12 MR. : No. 13 MR. : So that's what I'm 14 asking. So when this says, "Ceases to exist," 15 I just want to make sure, is once they leave 16 the SHU, it's not deleted. It's still always 17 going to exist in a file. 18 MR. : I mean, long - you've got a 19 register number, you could go back, but I don't 20 know how long the program, you could go back 21 and forth to pull a 292. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : You know, once the person is 24 out of SHU. You know, some forms you can go 25 back and you can pull it. EFTA00115927 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : But it'll stop at the day that 3 that person was released or, you know, placed 4 in another housing unit. 5 MR. : Okay. Now, people that 6 are in the SHU and gets placed in another 7 housing unit, the papers that were printed out, 8 what is done with those? 9 MR. : Those goes to the unit team. 10 MR. : Okay. So that goes, if 11 they went to a different housing unit, it goes 12 13 MR. : It goes to the -- 14 MR. : -- to the unit. 15 MR. unit team and the mailbox, 16 their file, you know, it tells you on the 17 thing, "Copy to unit team for central file." 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : And it goes into their - 20 supposed to go into their folder. 21 MR. : But it's not destroyed 22 either? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Huh-uh. EFTA00115928 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 31 1 MR. : It says, "Medical 2 personnel visit the SHU twice a day for rounds 3 in the mornings and the evenings." And it that 4 every day? 5 MR. : Yes. 6 MR. : So - on weekends too? 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : So medical personnel 9 visit the SHU two times a day, okay. 10 MR. : Two - twice per shift, yes. 11 MR. : Around when do they 12 usually show up? Is there -. 13 MR. : Depends. Sometimes they there 14 at, you know, 7 o'clock, 6 o'clock in the 15 morning and then, again, they come up after the 16 4 o'clock count or they might come up before 17 that. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : You know, when shift changes. 20 MR. : But they actually 21 participate in the rounds? 22 MR. : Yes. 23 MR. : Okay. regularly 24 audits 292 forms from the previous day." So 25 you'd be constantly seeing, making sure your EFTA00115929 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 1 staff are doing what they're supposed to be 2 doing -- 3 MR. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : -- with those forms? 5 Okay. advised that accountability of 6 inmates is important. He never caught anyone 7 intentionally not doing their job. also 8 reviews round forms and searches for red flags. 9 These could be missing spaces, missing 10 signatures, etcetera. If caught, 11 approaches the individual and requests an 12 explanation." So have you ever caught someone 13 then not doing rounds or -- 14 MR. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : -- anyone that was 16 working on that day - on August 9th or 10th 17 that was working in the SHU? Did you ever have 18 to discuss this matter with any of those 19 individuals? 20 MR. : Naw. 21 MR. : There's no one in there 22 that you can - that were working on either day? 23 MR. : Not that I know of, no. 24 MR. : Okay. Can you think of 25 anyone that you did ever have to deal with for EFTA00115930 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 not conducting rounds or counts? 2 MR. : On day watch, you know, we 3 would ask, "You're doing showers, we down 4 range, we doing this." It gots to get filled 5 out after, you know, that -. 6 MR. : But can you think of 7 anyone that you actually had to - that you 8 caught not doing it? Or I should say, your 9 last day at work was on August 8th. Who was 10 the last person you caught not (Indiccornible 11 *00:26:01)conducting rounds in the -- 12 MR. : Oh, I don't remember. 13 MR. : SHU? You don't? 14 MR. : I don't remember. 15 MR. : Okay. That's fine. 16 MR. : No, sir. 17 MR. : But you don't believe it 18 was any of the people that were working? 19 MR. : No. 20 MR. : Okay. was the SHU 21 Lieutenant when Epstein was assigned. Epstein 22 wasn't originally in the SHU. advised 23 Epstein was in 10 South Lower." 24 MR. : Uh-huh. 25 MR. : "The population is for EFTA00115931 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 inmates not on 10 South but high-profile." 2 Okay, so this is the first. There's two 3 different 10 Souths? 4 MR. : No. There's 10 South, then 5 there's 10 South Lower. 6 MR. : What's 10 South Lower? 7 I don't know -. 8 MR. : G Tier. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : All right? G Tier has four 11 cells where you can put high-profile or 12 terrorist inmates if 10 South is full. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : 10 South only holds a maximum 15 of six inmates. 16 MR. : So was he originally 17 going to go to 10 18 South then and was changed -. 19 MR. : Oh, I don't know. 20 MR. : So -. 21 MR. : When I got there, he was on G 22 Tier. 23 MR. : Okay. So I thought you 24 just said that 10 South Lower is for people 25 that were going if 10 South was full. EFTA00115932 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 1 MR. : They can put you on the Tier, 2 but they put a lot of - they put disruptive 3 inmates on that tier. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : So it's not up to me, it's up 6 to that shift Lieutenant. 7 MR. : Sure. 8 MR. : But, if the Captain or somebody 9 or, you know, the Warden or somebody, "Hey, put 10 that guy on G Tier and then that's where he's 11 going," that's where that individual will go. 12 That's where he will be housed if that 13 individual was disruptive or anything like 14 that. 15 MR. : And do you how long he 16 was on 10 South Lower approximately? 17 MR. : I don't know. 18 MR. : Was it a long time? 19 MR. : I don't know. 20 MR. : You don't know? 21 MR. : Like, when he - I guess, you 22 know, when he got there to the institution, he 23 was put on - he was on G Tier. 24 MR. : G Tier is 10 South Lower? 25 MR. : Yes. EFTA00115933 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 1 MR. : Okay. Is 10 South Lower 2 similar to 10 South in the sense that it's one 3 inmate per cell? 4 MR. : Yes. 5 MR. : And are there cameras in 6 those -. 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : All right, so it's set up 9 pretty much the same way as 10 South? 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : So he was never placed in 12 the general population. 13 MR. : I don't think so. 14 MR. : Okay. So when he came 15 in, you believe he was first put on 10 South 16 Lower and then transferred to the SHU. 17 MR. : Yes. 18 MR. : Okay. And you had 19 oversight -- 20 MR. : When -. 21 MR. : -- though -. 22 MR. : When - when -. 23 MR. : You have oversight over 24 25 MR. : When he was -. EFTA00115934 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- 10 South. 2 MR. : When he was moved off of G 3 Tier, if that's the question you're asking me, 4 and placed with a bunkie, that didn't come from 5 me. 6 MR. : Sure. Who does - so, did 7 you supervise both 10 South, 10 South Lower and 8 the regular SHU? 9 MR. : Yeah, and the regular SHU, yes. 10 MR. : Okay. And is that all 11 the same -- 12 MR. : That's all the same. 13 MR. : -- kind of unit? 14 MR. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : It's one big unit. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : Upstairs is a separate unit 19 because it's not on - only unit that's 10 South 20 Lower is in the Special Housing Unit. 21 MR. : Okay. So that's 22 MR. : It's on the Special Housing 23 Unit count. 24 MR. : So your understanding 25 though is Epstein was always somewhere in that EFTA00115935 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE