EFTA00062067.pdf

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 SEPTEMBER 22, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 26 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 EFTA00062067 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 NONE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 EFTA00062068 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : This is Special Agent 2 . It's September 22nd. The time is 3 approximately 12:50 p.m. 4 : 2021. 5 : 2021. My name is 6 Special Agent with the U.S. 7 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 8 General, New York Field Office, and these are 9 my credentials. 10 : Okay. 11 : This interview with unit 12 manager, , is being conducted 13 as part of an official U.S. Department of 14 Justice, Office of the Inspector General 15 investigation. Again, today's date is 16 September 22nd, 2021. The time is 12:51 p.m. 17 This interview is being conducted at the 18 Metropolitan Detention Center in , New 19 York. Also present is DOJ/OIG Senior Special 20 Agent, . This interview will 21 be recorded by me, Special Agent 22 Could everyone please identify themselves for 23 the record, and spell your last name? To 24 start, again, I am DOJ/OIG Special Agent 25 EFTA00062069 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Senior Special Agent 2 with the U.S. DOJ/OIG. 3 And these are my credentials. 4 : My name is 5 . Last name, unit 6 manager at MCC, TDY'd here, temporarily. 7 : Okay. Thank you for 8 clarifying that. 9 : At MDC 10 : Thank you. This is an 11 official DOJ/OIG investigation into the death 12 of inmate Jeffrey Epstein and the surrounding 13 circumstances. And you are being asked to 14 voluntarily provide answers to our questions. 15 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with 16 the DOJ/OIG? 17 : Yes. 18 : Thank you. 19 : Please review DOJ/OIG form 20 11I-226/2. The form states, The United States 21 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 22 General, Warnings and Assurances to Employees 23 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary 24 Basis. "You are being asked to provide 25 information as part of an investigation being EFTA00062070 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 1 conducted by the Office of the Inspector 2 General. This investigation is being conducted 3 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 4 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 5 performance failure and security failure." 6 : And just so you're aware, 7 that's what we're writing on everybody that we 8 interview. 9 : Okay. That's fine. 10 : Okay. 11 : No problem. 12 "This is a voluntary 13 interview. Accordingly, you do not have to 14 answer any questions. No disciplinary action 15 will be taken against you if you choose not to 16 answer questions. Any statement you furnish 17 may be used as evidence in any future criminal 18 proceedings, or agency disciplinary 19 proceedings, or both." The waiver states, "I 20 understand the Warnings and Assurances stated 21 above and I am willing to make a statement and 22 answer questions. No promises or threats have 23 been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of 24 any kind has been used against me." Please 25 read the form, review the form. If you EFTA00062071 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 6 1 understand, please print your name and sign on 2 the right side. That's over here. That will 3 be your signature. Print your name right below 4 that. Yeah. This is Special Agent 5 , I'm signing as a signature of the 6 Office of the Inspector General, Special Agent. 7 : And you understand, this 8 is a voluntary interview, you don't have to 9 answer our questions. You can stop it at any 10 time. Correct? 11 : Yes. 12 : Perfect. Thank you. 13 : The time is 12:54 p.m. As 14 Senior Special Agent, can you sign as a 15 witness, please? 16 : Sure. 17 : Thank you, sir. 18 : Yes. 19 : This is Senior Special 20 Agent I'm signing as the 21 witness. 22 : My phone is in there. 23 : Oh. There you go. 24 : Thank you. Before starting 25 the interview, I would like to place you under EFTA00062072 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 oath. can you please raise your 2 right hand? 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : Do you swear to tell the 5 truth and nothing but the truth during this 6 interview? 7 : I do. 8 : Thank you. You can put your 9 hand down. Please let me know if you do not 10 understand any questions, and I'll try to 11 repeat it, or rephrase it for you. What is 12 your current home address? 13 : My current home address is 14 , New 15 York. 16 -: . You showed me your 17 credentials. Can you show that to me one more 18 time? 19 : Yeah. 20 -: is showing me his 21 U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of 22 Prisons ID. It has his picture, and it states 23 , Unit Manager, MCC New York 24 on it. Thank you for that. 25 : Yup. EFTA00062073 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 1 : What is your current cell 2 phone number? 3 : My current cell phone number 4 is 5 : What is your highest level of 6 education? 7 : High school and some 8 college. 9 : What college? 10 : I went to, I studied at a 11 , and received a 12 certificate there for HVAC, Heating and 13 Plumbing. 14 : Is that in New York? 15 : That's in , as 16 in Union. 17 : Union. Okay. 18 : Union, New Jersey. 19 : I understand. Do you have 20 any military service? 21 : Yes, I do. 22 : What? 23 : Four years Army, four years 24 active, and three years, nine months National 25 Guard. EFTA00062074 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Are you currently still in 2 the military, or -- 3 : No. 4 -- are you discharged? 5 : Discharged. 6 : Honorable? 7 : Honorable discharge. 8 : And what grade? 9 : E-4. 10 : Thank you for that. Thank 11 you for your service. And what was the enter 12 duty date with the BOP? 13 : March 6, 1994. 14 : And when did you graduate 15 from BOP training? 16 : Hmm. 17 : If you don't remember. 18 year? 19 : Yeah. It was - yeah - 20 don't remember. 21 : So, 1994. Around then. 22 : I went in 1994. So, I had 23 to be, what, I had to go to Glynco after '94. 24 So, right around '94. Some time. 25 : And you mentioned that you're EFTA00062075 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 1 currently TDY. As a unit manager over to the 2 MDC program. 3 : That is correct. 4 : And you were TDY from MCC? 5 : That is correct. 6 : When did you start at the 7 MCC? 8 : I came here, I want to say, 9 around a month and a half ago because they're 10 remodeling MCC. So, as a unit manager, they 11 sent me over here, and there was a -. They 12 gave me a letter of, I want to say it said, not 13 temporarily, it said permanently TDY, until 14 further notice. 15 : And your position in August 16 of 2019 was unit manager, also? 17 : Yes. 18 : And which units, again, were 19 you? 20 : Unit. My unit was unit 11. 21 North 11 South. And 9 North at the time. 22 : Do you recall being 23 interviewed by the OIG and the FBI regarding 24 the Epstein matter in August 2019? 25 : Yes. EFTA00062076 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 : What I have in front of me is 2 a 302. It's called a report, of investigation 3 written by the FBI, and I'm not going to read 4 through the whole thing, but we're going to go 5 through a few portions that we need 6 clarification on. And we'll go from there. 7 The paragraph that I'm starting with, it 8 starts, the date of the memo is - date of entry 9 - is 8/16/2019. 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : Because the interview was 12 on 8/12/2019. 13 : 8/12/2019. During the days" 14 - I'm reading from the memo - "during the days 15 prior to Epstein's death, ran into 16 Epstein as he was being escorted downstairs to 17 meet with his lawyers on either Wednesday or 18 Thursday. Epstein told he needed to 19 set up his pack and pin (Phonetic Sp. 20 *00:08:27), which allows inmates to make social 21 calls. However, Epstein had been unable to set 22 it up because he was always meeting with his 23 lawyers,and was never in the SHU. Epstein 24 asked to assist him because his normal 25 unit manager was on leave." Who was his normal EFTA00062077 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 unit manager? 2 : His normal unit manager was 3 Unit Manager 4 • 5 • (Phonetic Sp. 6 *00:08:47). 7 • . Okay. 8 : Do you know how to spell 9 that last name? 10 : Her name first name is III- 11 12 . Okay. 13 : Thank you. 14 : Yeah. Thank you. 15 "Epstein." Sorry. 16 looked in the system and verified the only call 17 made by Epstein, from the MCC, was the three- 18 minute call given to inmates at the time of the 19 initial intaking to the facility. made 20 the request for Epstein, and obtained a paper 21 print out of his pack and piand provided it to 22 Epstein." When you provided to Epstein, was it 23 active? 24 : He has to activate it. The 25 actual inmate has to activate it. Any time we EFTA00062078 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 1 give an inmate a pack and pin, the inmate has 2 to activate it. 3 : Okay. What do they have to 4 do activate it? 5 : What they have to do is, 6 they would have to get on the phone, which, he 7 was in the SHU. So, an inmate can't make a 8 phone call for every 30 days. So, in general 9 population, they would get on the phone, they 10 would record their voice. Once they record, by 11 pushing 111, once they record their voice, then 12 it would actually activate, and then they can't 13 money on the phone, and then have to put money 14 on a phone, then they could use the phone. 15 : So, when you gave him the 16 pack and pin, it was necessarily not active yet 17 18 : That is correct. 19 : -- he still had to active it. 20 : That is correct. 21 : And is it that he has to put 22 money on it, too? 23 : That is correct. 24 : Okay. 25 : And was there any way for EFTA00062079 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 1 him to activate it, with his current situation 2 at the time being in the SHU? 3 : Not that particular day, he 4 was requested a phone. It would have took him, 5 to actually activate it in SHU, and add money 6 to it, because when you activate it in Special 7 Housing Unit, let's say he activates it to 8 today. He would have to fill out a green form. 9 Usually, they would do it on the computer. 10 They don't have computers in SHU where they 11 could do it. So, they would have to fill out a 12 green form, which would have to be given to 13 them by a unit manager, or a unit team member. 14 That green form is then filled out by them. 15 And then, it's submitted to our ITS, which then 16 will put it, put the money on the money on his 17 account. I would say it would take, like, 18 three or four days, to a week, for it to 19 actually be activated. Be in his account. 20 : And was he provided a 21 green form? 22 : No. Because at that 23 particular time, I just gave him the pin and 24 pack. That was it. 25 : So, the pin and pack EFTA00062080 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 couldn't be used, though, is what you're 2 saying? So, he had to activate it, and then 3 request a green form? 4 : That is correct. When 5 inmates originally come in, we give them their 6 pin and pack then. So, it should have been 7 activated when he first came in the building. 8 : Okay. Do you know why it 9 wasn't? 10 : I wasn't his unit team. 11 : Sure. 12 : But it should have been 13 activated then. 14 : Okay. So, but the way 15 that this went, was you provided him with it, 16 but what you provided him, he couldn't have 17 actually used? 18 : No. 19 : And at what point does he 20 request the green form? 21 : I was going to actually, the 22 next day, give him that green form, because I 23 knew, I knew it was the next step. 24 : Okay. 25 : He didn't even have to ask EFTA00062081 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 1 for that, because I knew it was the next step. 2 Once again, he wasn't my inmate, but I knew, as 3 unit manager -- 4 : Okay. 5 : -- what was the next step. 6 The next step was to give him the green form, 7 fill it out, say, hey, I want to put this 8 amount of money on my form. And then, give it 9 to him that way. 10 : Yeah. 11 : Okay. So, the days 12 leading up to Epstein's death, you ran into him 13 and he asked for it. Did you give it to him 14 that day, or did you give it to him the day -? 15 : No. That day. 16 : The 9th? 17 : Yup. 18 : So, the day prior to him 19 being found in his cell? 20 : Yup. 21 : Okay. 22 : And correction. I'm sorry. 23 Because it's not done by computers, I want to 24 correct myself. So, an inmate can, once he 25 gets on the phone, and record his voice, can do EFTA00062082 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 1 it over the phone. I do apologize. He can 2 actually put money over the phone. 3 : Okay. But there was no 4 phone for him to actually do that with? 5 : No. Not, like, as far as a 6 phone to give it to, and let him record it. 7 No. 8 : But being assigned to the 9 SHU is what I mean. SHU, and then also being 10 in the attorney conference. I mean, would he 11 have the ability to activate that? 12 : In the attorney conference, 13 there was no, there is no phone in there. 14 : In the SHU, though, could 15 he activated it? 16 : In the SHU, we would have to 17 actually give him the phone, the phone would 18 have to be during his validation time. So, 19 that validation times starts in the time that 20 you come in the prison. So, say if he came in 21 on the 19th, his activation time would be the 22 19th. So, he can only use it every 30 days. 23 So, being that he never used the phone, he 24 would be in there with an activated, probably, 25 the next day. EFTA00062083 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 1 : But from within the SHU? 2 : Within the SHU. If he was 3 given a phone. 4 : Okay. 5 : If he was given a phone. 6 Yeah. 7 : And they do have phones 8 in the SHU, though. Is that what you're 9 saying? 10 : Yes. 11 : Okay. Sorry. Go ahead. 12 : Just a quick question. That 13 you mentioned it was on the 9th? 14 : Well, it says on the days 15 leading up, he asked for it, but you said on 16 the actual 9th, is when you gave it to him. 17 So, you didn't give it to him the day that he 18 asked for it? 19 : No. The actual date that he 20 asked for the form, because the same day he 21 asked for a phone, I gave him his 22 : Oh. Because yeah, in the 23 interview that you had, you know, a couple days 24 later, on August 12th, 2019, you said, during 25 the days prior to Epstein's death. So, days -- EFTA00062084 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 1 : (Indiscernible *00:13:34). 2 : -- plural. 3 : Right, right, right. 4 : (Indiscernible *00:13:36) -- 5 : So, that -. 6 -- if it says either 7 Wednesday or Thursday. 8 : Yeah. It was either 9 Wednesday or Thursday. I'm not sure what date. 10 : So, not on the date that -- 11 : So, not -- 12 : Right. 13 : -- on the 9th. 14 : Right. 15 : Okay. 16 : Either that Wednesday or 17 that Thursday, he was given that. 18 : Okay. 19 : Because I like I said, he 20 was always in court, but when he asked me, I 21 came down, and I saw him with his lawyer. So, 22 I would, I gave him the actual pin and pack, to 23 set it up. 24 : Oh, he was in court, or was 25 he -? EFTA00062085 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : No. He was downstairs. 2 : In attorney conference? 3 : Yeah. 4 : Okay. 5 : Sorry. So, it was given 6 to him on either Wednesday or Thursday. 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : Which would possibly -- 9 : That would be 10 August 7th -- 11 -- August 7th -- 12 or the 8th. 13 : -- or the 8th. 14 : That is correct. 15 : And when you gave it to him, 16 was his attorneys present? 17 : Yes. 18 : Because it states, "Epstein 19 was happy, as were his lawyers, who made a 20 thumbs up gesture." 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : Okay. I'm going to, you 23 know, read on. 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 "On Friday, August 9th, 2019, EFTA00062086 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 1 worked from 11:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m., as 2 the duty officer. Epstein told he 3 wanted to make a call to his mother, but had 4 not yet been able to set up his pack and pin. 5 , he was ensuring his inmates have 6 family socialization as part of his job, so he 7 allows inmates having technical problems with 8 their pack and pin, a single 15-minute phone 9 call. told Epstein his watch was 10 ending at 7:00 p.m. that day, and the only way 11 he would be able to help him make a call was if 12 he ended his meeting with the lawyers earlier 13 than normal. checked and confirmed 14 that Epstein had not yet set up his pack and 15 pin." 16 : That is correct. 17 "At approximately 6:45 p.m., 18 found Epstein waiting for him, to make 19 that call." Where was he waiting? 20 : In attorney conference, with 21 his lawyers. 22 : Okay. And did you go in 23 there yourself, or did someone notify you, hey, 24 listen, he's waiting for you? 25 : No. They notified me in EFTA00062087 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 1 attorney conference that he was ready because 2 they knew I was leaving at 7:00. 3 : Okay. "Epstein was 4 handcuffed, searched, and brought upstairs. 5 did not know which cell was Epstein's, 6 and instead, put Epstein in the shower area, on 7 G-tier, which prefers for phone calls 8 because inmates are not locked in their cells 9 with the ability to pull the phone cord into 10 their locked cell, and use it to commit self- 11 harm. The phone cord barely reaches into the 12 shower, where the guards are also physically 13 present, with Epstein. used the first 14 outlet on the left, which is the legal line. 15 Epstein provided with the phone number 16 beginning with (347)." Now, before I go on, it 17 says you used the first outlet on the left, 18 legal line. Why the legal line? 19 : Because they have two lines 20 in there. One is a legal line, and one is, 21 where he uses his phone. So, he - let's say if 22 I plugged it in there, he can't use it because 23 his pack and pin is not set up. On a legal 24 line, like we give right now, we give inmates 25 in SHU legal calls. So, we actually have to EFTA00062088 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 put in that code, in order for them to make 2 that call. So, there's a certain call where 3 the inmates don't have. 4 So, I would have to dial that - at that 5 time, the code was 91 - I would have to dial 6 91, the number, and then, you know, hey, hello, 7 boom, boom, boom. And then, give it to him. 8 Because he didn't have that code. So, he can't 9 You can just dial out on that phone. So, a 10 legal line is set up for us to give inmates 11 legal calls in SHU. 12 : What is the difference 13 between the legal line and the other line? 14 : The -. 15 : Other than the fact that you 16 need the pin. Is there a difference between 17 both of them? 18 : Yes. The difference is an 19 inmate needs a pin and pack to set up, and 20 that's social call. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : For him to make any social 23 calls to his family, which is, they're 24 recorded. That one is recorded. The legal 25 line, if they want us to give an inmate a legal EFTA00062089 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 call, you know, legal calls, by law, cannot be 2 recorded. So, we then make the call, hey, this 3 is , I have your client here. Boom, 4 boom, boom. Mr. Epstein, here's the phone, and 5 we give him the phone. And then, we don't stay 6 within that vicinity to listen to their phone 7 calls. And that's the same phone that they 8 have downstairs, in the R&D, when we give them 9 that call, we actually give it to them 10 downstairs, that three-minute call, and we give 11 it to them, we give them the phone right in 12 front of us. 13 : It states, about that, 14 "Epstein told he wanted to make a call 15 to his mother." 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : But that was not a legal 18 call, though. 19 : No. 20 : It was a personal call. 21 : That is correct. 22 : How come the legal line? 23 : Because if he didn't have 24 something set up, how would he make a phone 25 call? And this inmate been with us for a EFTA00062090 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 while. And me, personally, if he was my 2 inmate, he would have had his pin set up. Why 3 his wasn't set up, I don't know. And I will 4 give you a good example. R. Kelly's up there, 5 his is set up. Why his wasn't set up, my job 6 as a duty Officer, is to make sure, if an 7 inmate, like, I'm there to sit for the warden. 8 So, if an inmate is asking, hey, can I get a 9 phone call? 10 He's been asking for this phone call for a 11 while. From his unit manager, from everybody, 12 and I'm, like, why does this inmate don't have 13 his pin and pack set up? I don't know. I'm 14 not his unit team. That's not my 15 responsibility to have other stuff. If it was, 16 it would have been set up. So, since I'm duty 17 officer, and I know that I verified that he 18 didn't make any phone calls, I said, okay, he's 19 just like any other inmate. It's only right to 20 make sure that he stays in contact with his 21 family, because that's part of the program 22 statement of inmates visiting their families 23 and keeping in contact with their family 24 members. He didn't have a line to make it on. 25 So, I chose to make that decision, and make it EFTA00062091 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 on a legal line. 2 : Did you have a conference 3 with anyone above you, to get permission for 4 that, or was it just a decision made by you? 5 : I made a decision because, 6 as a duty officer, remember, I work from 11:00 7 to 7:00, and I sit in for the warden. So, I 8 wouldn't call the warden at home and say, hey, 9 can I give him this legal call? Because that's 10 what the duty officer job is. The duty officer 11 is there representing the warden while she's 12 not there. So, basically, I'm over the 13 lieutenants, I'm over They would have to 14 contact me. When incidents happen, they have 15 to contact the duty officer. Then I contact 16 the region, the duty officer. 17 : Oh, I see. 18 : So, I don't contact the 19 warden. I contact the regional duty officer. 20 : So, as the duty officer, you 21 report to the region? 22 : That is correct. 23 : Do you recall having a 24 conversation, though, with the captain, and him 25 providing you the authority to do it? EFTA00062092 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : No. Because with unit 2 teams, we never -. Giving an inmate a phone 3 call is not the captain's responsibility. 4 : No, no, no. We had 5 information that you actually spoke with him in 6 the elevator, and he said, yeah, give him the 7 call. 8 -• 9 : Is that true? Yeah. 10 : I don't - it's been so long 11 - I don't recall. I could have. But at the 12 same time, even if he would have said yes or 13 no, I would have gave him the call. Because 14 15 : Okay. 16 : -- because my, myself, just 17 being unit team, inmates, it is our 18 responsibility as a unit team, and our program 19 statement, that we make sure they keep in 20 contact with their family members, or whoever. 21 Mother. Father. Sister. Brother. We have 22 to. 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : We have inmates that are - 25 and I'm not trying to - but explain the fact, EFTA00062093 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 inmates that indigent, that don't have no 2 money. 3 : Yeah. 4 : How will we give them a 5 phone call? We give them the phone call the 6 same way. Inmates who don't have money, 7 they're indigent. So, if they need a phone 8 call, we have to give them a phone call. We 9 can't just not give them a phone call, but we 10 would call the number, give them the phone 11 call, let them speak to - and we give them a 12 15-minute phone call. 13 : Is that on the legal 14 line, as well? 15 : Yes. 16 : Okay. 17 : Because if they don't have 18 no money, -- 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : -- there's no way to put 21 money on it, but we don't give them money. 22 They're indigent. And that will be on their 23 : What is the word you're 24 ending? 25 : -- indigent. EFTA00062094 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Okay. 2 : So, that will be on their 3 We would look on their money form. And 4 basically, any - what they - how they determine 5 if you're indigent, they go by how much money 6 you received in the last six months. They go 7 by six months. So, if an inmate only received, 8 I think it's, I want to say under $50 bucks, 9 that inmate is indigent. It's now in the unit 10 team's responsibility. Also, we not just give 11 them phone calls. An indigent inmate could get 12 up to five legal stamps, every month, and if he 13 wants to do his lawyer, he can get up to five 14 every week. 15 : Now -- 16 : Indigent inmates. 17 : -- so, back to 18 though. Does that - from what you said - does 19 that mean, like, it wasn't even him, and his 20 kind of, like, purview, or job responsibility, 21 to tell you that you were authorized? 22 : I think me and had a 23 rapport. We was a -. He was a captain there. 24 An accomplished captain. So, we always spoke. 25 So, that was me giving him the courtesy. So, EFTA00062095 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 if I did ask him, it was me giving him a 2 courtesy. I would have did that to any 3 captain. 4 : Okay. 5 : If you was the captain. 6 It's just me, hey, listen, I'm going to give 7 this guy a phone call. This, this, and that. 8 could have said to me, oh, I don't think 9 that's a good idea. And I would have said, 10 okay. Probably would have went to somebody 11 else. Like, an AW or somebody. But at the 12 same time, once again, there's nobody there 13 after 7:00. So, I'm the duty officer, I would 14 have made that decision and said, hey, I'm 15 going to give him a phone call. 16 : Okay. And you don't 17 remember, though, having that conversation 18 : No. 19 : -- with , and being 20 21 : And I -- 22 : -- (Indiscernible 23 *00:22:13). 24 : -- and I could have. I 25 could have had that conversation, because Like EFTA00062096 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE I 1 I said, we talk on a regular basis. So, I 2 could have. 3 : Just bringing yourself 4 back to that date, though, at 6:45, you meet 5 with him, the attorneys are in there. They 6 give you the thumbs up, and you're going back, 7 and you go into an elevator. Do you remember 8 at all being in the elevator with you? 9 : No. I remember being 10 around because - and the reason why I know that 11 - is because doesn't have a lieutenant 12 to work. So, he was there late. He had a GS-9 13 working there that day. 14 : Okay. 15 : I do remember that. So, if 16 you have a GS-9 working, you have to stay, or 17 because you have to have a GS-11 and above. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : So, he was there that day. 20 I do remember that. 21 : Okay. But you just don't 22 remember that conversation? 23 : That is correct. 24 : Okay. Perfect. 25 : Now that the call was given EFTA00062097 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 1 on the legal line, was there any steps to make 2 sure, because it's supposed to be recorded, you 3 know, an inmate call, a social call, is 4 supposed to be recorded. 5 : Right. 6 : He said he's calling his 7 mother. Was there any steps that you should 8 have taken to ensure that that call was 9 monitored somehow? 10 : The only way we monitor it 11 is, I made the phone call, hello, how you 12 doing? I don't say, hey, is this his mother, 13 because my thing is, I could say, hey, is this 14 his mother, yeah, well, yes, this is his 15 mother. How do I know? So, a female answers, 16 I give him the phone. I let him talk for 15 17 minutes. I go sit down, let him talk for 15 18 minutes. When he's done with the phone call, 19 disconnect, and that's it. 20 So, we don't know. Let's say, right now, 21 I put an endogen inmate on a phone right now. 22 For 15 minutes. And I let him talk or 23 whatever. Do we know there's a three-way, or 24 anything? We don't know. So, we sit down. We 25 time it. 15 minutes. And we're done. There's EFTA00062098 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 1 no way to record that phone. There's no way to 2 pretty much his brother, or somebody else, can 3 get on the line. Anybody can get on that line, 4 at that particular time. 5 That was in place since I've been at MCC. 6 Has anything changed? The only thing changed 7 since I've been there is they took out all of 8 the legal lines, and they put them in one 9 particular area. They took them all out of 10 SHU, and they put one legal line in the back, 11 and they changed the code for that particular 12 reason. 13 : What -? 14 : And that wasn't after 15 Epstein. It took a while. 16 : So, they do it in 17 response because people were doing that, was 18 what you mean? 19 : The reason -. I'm one of 20 the ones who actually brought it to the 21 captain. The deputy captain, (Indiscernible 22 *00:24:36) captain, and the AW. And that was 23 (Indiscernible *00:24:39). Because on a 24 regular basis, this is even after Epstein, even 25 after (Phonetic Sp. *00:24:43) was EFTA00062099 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 there, she - and anybody would say, okay, 2 inmates, we want a phone call, you on a phone 3 restriction. 4 But remember, the warden is the only one 5 who could say, okay, give this inmate a phone 6 call. Okay. Give him a phone call. How can 7 you give him a phone call? He's on a phone 8 restriction. There's only two ways you could 9 give an inmate a phone call, and that is, you 10 can't give it to him on a social, you give it 11 to him on legal line. Yes, ma'am. She signs 12 the cop out. She approves it. Well, any 13 warden. I'm not just saying her. I'm not 14 trying to put. I'm just saying, that's how 15 it's done. That's how I've seen it done. 16 Once we get it approved, we give the 17 inmate the phone, on the legal line, hey, 18 hello, boom. Give it to him. Sit down in the 19 chair. Wait 15 minutes. Go back. Hey, you - 20 give him two minutes - hey, you have two 21 minutes left and that's it. Take the phone 22 from the inmate. We don't know that person is 23 24 : Okay. So, you are 25 supposed to -- EFTA00062100 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 1 : -- because (Indiscernible 2 *00:25:32). 3 : -- you're supposed to sit 4 there with them, though. Correct? 5 : No. There's nothing saying 6 that. That's just, like, sit there and do 7 what? 8 : Oh, so, everything that 9 we've been told is that, if you give the person 10 a call, on a legal line, if it's not the 11 attorney, you're supposed to sit there and 12 monitor the call, because it's not being 13 recorded. 14 : Well, they -. And since 15 I've been there, and that's the reason why I 16 asked them to take it out. Because how you 17 putting somebody on a range, and saying that, 18 hey, this person -. If that's the case, then 19 let's do it the right way. The right way -- 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 is to belly chain the 22 inmate, take him out. Okay? This is the right 23 way. Take him out - because that's what we do 24 down there - you take him out. You pull the 25 inmate out. You put the inmate in a secluded EFTA00062101 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 1 area. You make the phone call. On speaker. 2 Because that's how we do it downst