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462
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SEVENTEENTH JUDICIAL
CIRCUIT IN AND FOR BROWARD COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO.: CACE 15-000072
BRADLEY J. EDWARDS and PAUL G.
CASSELL,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ,
Defendant.
VIDEOTAPE CONTINUED DEPOSITION OF
ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ
VOLUME 4
Pages 462 through 647
Tuesday, January 12, 2016
1:05 p.m. - 4:45 p.m.
Stenographically Reported By:
Kimberly Fontalvo, RPR, CLR
Realtime Systems Administrator
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1 APPEARANCES:
2
On behalf of Plaintiffs:
3
SEARCY, DENNEY, SCAROLA
4 BARNHART & SHIPLEY, P.A.
5
6
7
8 On behalf of Defendant:
9 COLE, SCOTT & KISSANE, P.A.
Dadeland Centre II - Suite 1400
10
11
12 :
I I I. P , . (Via phone)
IRIR
13 il
--an --
14 SWEDER & ROSS, LLP
15
BY: KENNETH A. SWEDER, ESQ.
16
17 --and--
18 WILEY, REIN
19
BY: RICHARD A. SIMPSON, ESQ.
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 APPEARANCES (Continued):
2
3 On behalf of Jeffrey Epstein:
4
5 Sligi
BY: DARREN K. INDYKE, ESQ. (Via phone)
6
7 On behalf of
8 BOIES, SCHILLER & FLEXNER, LLP
9
BY: SIGRID STONE MCCAWLEY, ESQ.
10
11
12 ALSO PRESENT:
13 Edward J. Pozzuoli, Special Master
14 Sean D. Reyes, Utah Attorney General Office
15 Travis Gallagher, Videographer
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 INDEX
2
3
Examination Page
4
5 VOLUME 4 (Pages 462 - 647)
6
7 Certificate of Oath 645
Certificate of Reporter 646
8 Read and Sign Letter to Witness 647
Errata Sheet (forwarded upon execution) 648
9
10 PLAINTIFF EXHIBITS
11
12 No. Page
13 19 Proposed Joint Letter to the Special 501
Master
14
20 Document reflecting entry for Bands, 548
15 Doug
16 21 562
17
18 22 Letter dated Jul 6 2007 from Gerald 612
B. Lefcourt to First
19 Assistant U.S. torney an o hers
22 pages
20
23 Document titled NewsRoom/Alan 623
21 Dershowitz to talk in Alburquerque
22 24 628
23
24
25
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1 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going back on the record.
2 The time is approximately 1:05 p.m.
3 MR. INDYKE: This is Darren Indyke. If it
4 would be okay with everyone, I would like to
5 clarify a couple of points for the record.
6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Go ahead.
7 MR. INDYKE: First, I apologize for the
8 spotty reception during the morning session. I
9 was having difficulty hearing you folks, and I
10 think you were having some difficulty hearing
11 me. I think I've corrected it, but if I could
12 ask if you could move the mic closer to him
13 somehow or if I let you know that I can't hear,
14 if somebody could just speak up.
15 MR. SCAROLA: Did we turn that speaker
16 volume up?
17 MR. SIMPSON: Let's turn up the volume.
18 MR. INDYKE: Secondly, as to the argument
19 that work product belongs to the attorney and
20 not the client, I want to make sure that it's
21 clear that we disagree with that vehemently.
22 We believe that it is a client's every bit
23 as much as an attorney's and an attorney has no
24 right to waive that privilege over the
25 objection of a client. If that were true,
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1 there would be nothing improper with an
2 attorney publishing his entire case file over
3 the objection of his client with the exception
4 of communications back and forth between
5 attorney and client. Strategies, witnesses,
6 things like that could be disclosed over the
7 objection of a client, and that's just not the
8 case.
9 So for the record, Mr. Epstein reasserts
10 the work product privilege and would continue
11 do so. And I would instruct Mr. Dershowitz not
12 provide any response to any question that would
13 require Mr. Dershowitz to invade that
14 privilege.
15 Third, I guess as to the joint defense
16 agreement, it is our position that any party to
17 the joint defense agreement may assert it, and
18 it doesn't require disclosure of all parties to
19 the agreement in order for the assertion to be
20 valid.
21 I would note that disclosure of the
22 parties to a joint defense agreement are often,
23 by the terms of a joint defense agreement,
24 subject to confidentiality and, thus, protected
25 by the privilege.
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1 And I would also point out that it's not
2 necessary for a person to be a party to a joint
3 defense agreement for the communications with
4 that person by a lawyer who is making those
5 communications on behalf of the client party to
6 the agreement to be subject to the joint
7 defense agreement.
8 And while we need to do some more
9 background research to get the full details of
10 the joint defense agreement, I would -- for
11 those reasons, to the extent that any
12 disclosure in response to any questions posed
13 to Mr. Dershowitz would require Mr. Dershowitz
14 to invade that joint defense agreement, we
15 would instruct -- we would object and instruct
16 that Mr. Dershowitz not respond. I think that
17 covers everything that I have.
18 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Thank you.
19 Let's proceed.
20 MR. SCAROLA: Before we proceed, I want to
21 note for the record that the various
22 transcripts of statements made by
23 Mr. Dershowitz that had been requested during
24 the earlier session of the deposition were
25 marked as Exhibit Number 1 to the prior
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1 sessions of Mr. Dershowitz's deposition.
2 I believe that everything that was
3 referenced has been disclosed. To the extent
4 that opposing counsel identifies anything that
5 is not included in Composite Exhibit Number 1
6 previously marked, we would be happy to provide
7 a copy of that as soon as a copy --
8 MR. INDYKE: Is that Mr. Scarola?
9 MR. SCAROLA: It is, yes.
10 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on. Speak
11 up a little bit, Jack.
12 MR. SCAROLA: Certainly. As soon as a
13 copy that does not include work product
14 notations is available, and the portions of
15 statements made by Mr. Dershowitz not included
16 in Exhibit Number 1 are identified to us, we
17 will provide those.
18 MR. SCOTT: I think what we most want,
19 Jack, are the -- I think we have one
20 transcript, but I think there's another
21 transcript of the bench and Bar that we need.
22 MR. SCAROLA: There are multiple
23 transcripts included in Exhibit Number 1.
24 MR. EDWARDS: If there are transcripts
25 that you need that are not included in Exhibit
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1 Number 1, tell me. I'll get them to you, and
2 I'll get them to you tomorrow since we're here
3 again.
4 MR. SCAROLA: I just want the record to
5 reflect that I believe that everything that
6 we've made reference to is included in Exhibit
7 Number 1. If I'm incorrect in that regard, you
8 let us know what it is, we'll give it to you.
9 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Darren, anything
10 on your end? You okay?
11 MR. INDYKE: Yep.
12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I would welcome
13 the parties just to get together to make sure
14 they have a complete set of what they need, and
15 we'll go from there.
16 MR. EDWARDS: Absolutely. Just for the
17 record, my only real objection was not turning
18 over what I had marked and my work product.
19 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I understood.
20 MR. EDWARDS: I'll get everything to him
21 tomorrow.
22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I took it that
23 way.
24 BY MR. EDWARDS:
25 Q. Going back to testing the credibility of
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1 A. I imagine there would be if there were
2 videotapes. I've always said from the beginning, I
3 hope there are videotapes of every moment in
4 life, because they would exculpate
5 me completely. So I hope there are videotapes.
6 Q. Aren't you aware that there were
7 videotapes that were taken within your client
8 Jeffrey Epstein's various homes?
9 MR. INDYKE: Objection. Work product,
10 attorney-client. Common interest.
11 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Carve out the
12 privileged issue and non-privileged, if he
13 gained information through a nonprivileged
14 source.
15 BY MR. EDWARDS:
16 Q. Well, the statement was -- which I was not
17 going there. The statement was, if there are
18 videos, I want them all out there?
19 A. Absolutely.
20 Q. So, isn't it true that you know that there
21 were indeed videos taken from within your client's
22 various homes?
23 MR. INDYKE: Same objection.
24 BY MR. EDWARDS:
25 Q. Privileged or nonprivileged.
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1 MR. SCOTT: Asked and answered in the last
2 depo.
3 A. I hope there were videos. I hope there
4 are videos of every moment of ' life
5 from the time she allegedly met Jeffrey Epstein to
6 the time she left. I hope there were videos in
7 every bedroom. I hope there were videos in every
8 massage room. I hope there are videos all over.
9 And from day one, I categorically stated
10 that there could be no photograph, no video that
11 would demonstrate that what she said was true,
12 because I knew it was false. She knew it was false.
13 And you knew it was false.
14 BY MR. EDWARDS:
15 Q. In representing a client, don't you try to
16 determine or ascertain what evidence does exist that
17 may incriminate or exonerate any particular client?
18 A. Of course.
19 Q. Okay. In making that inquiry in this
20 case, haven't you learned that there are --
21 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Which case?
22 BY MR. EDWARDS:
23 Q. In the case in which you represented
24 Jeffrey Epstein, haven't you learned that there were
25 video recordings taken from within Jeffrey Epstein's
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1 various homes as well as his airplane?
2 MR. INDYKE: Objection, same objection.
3 Instruct him not to answer.
4 A. I hope there were.
5 BY MR. EDWARDS:
6 Q. Will you then assist us
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- in obtaining those videos from your
9 client?
10 A. I will assist you in getting any possible
11 videotapes of r any of the
12 locations where the false accusation against me was
13 made. I would be thrilled to have videos of every
14 moment of my life during that period of time, and
15 every moment of her life. Because they would prove
16 conclusively that which I know to be conclusively
17 false, namely that she made up the stories about me.
18 Q. Okay. Just so I understand your
19 agreement, is that --
20 MR. INDYKE: Just so we're clear,
21 Mr. Epstein is not waiving any of his
22 objections as to any such information to the
23 extent that it exists.
24 BY MR. EDWARDS:
25 Q. Okay. Well, this video or photograph --
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1 if there are videos or photographs of
that have been taken or recorded from
3 Jeffrey Epstein's home, is that -- is that evidence
4 that you will assist us in obtaining?
5 A. I will try my best to try to get every
6 possible
7 MR. INDYKE: Objection.
8 A. -- photograph -- I'm entitled to say what
9 I'll try to best to do. I will try my best to get
10 every possible video, photograph, and any other
11 piece of objective evidence because I know it will
12 all completely prove beyond any doubt that I wasn't
13 there.
14 BY MR. EDWARDS:
15 Q. And if that information has already
16 exchanged hands -- that evidence has already
17 exchanged hands from Jeffrey Epstein's hands to the
18 hands of his attorneys, as part of their work
19 product, would you agree to waive your work product
20 privilege to produce that evidence?
21 MR. SCOTT: Objection.
22 MR. INDYKE: Objection.
23 A. I don't have any such evidence. I wish I
24 did.
25
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1 BY MR. EDWARDS:
2 Q. With respect to the search warrant that
3 was executed on Jeffrey Epstein's house, isn't it
4 true that just before that search warrant was
5 executed, the -- Jeffrey Epstein's legal team
6 ordered that three computers be removed from Jeffrey
7 Epstein's home that contained pornographic images,
8 including those of
9 A. I made no such order.
10 MR. INDYKE: Same objection. And instruct
11 not to answer.
12 BY MR. EDWARDS:
13 Q. I didn't ask if you made the order. Isn't
14 it true that that occurred?
15 MR. INDYKE: Same objection.
16 MR. SIMPSON: Darren?
17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'm not so sure
18 you can waive that objection.
19 A. I wish I could.
20 BY MR. EDWARDS:
21 Q. Didn't the U.S. Attorney's Office issue
22 grand jury subpoenas to the investigators that were
23 working on Jeffrey Epstein's behalf and were holding
24 those computers, and those grand jury subpoenas
25 outstanding at the time that the case resolved?
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1 A. All I can say --
2 MR. INDYKE: Same objection and
3 instruction.
4 A. -- is I wish every video, every computer,
5 I wish everything that would show where
was had been turned over and would be turned
7 over.
8 MR. SCAROLA: Mr. Dershowitz's repeated
9 comments about what he wishes would happen are
10 an indirect statement that if he could answer
11 the questions, the responses that he would give
12 would be favorable to him and would exonerate
13 him.
14 His wishes are not the subject of the
15 inquiry. And every occasion on which he
16 expresses a wish and refuses to give an answer
17 is unresponsive to the questions that are being
18 asked, and should be stricken.
19 They also constitute a waiver to the
20 extent that they imply that if the question
21 could be answered, the answer would be
22 favorable.
23 I would ask you to instruct
24 MR. INDYKE: And to the extent that they
25 imply a waiver --
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1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on a
2 second. Let him finish.
3 MR. INDYKE: I apologize, Mr. Scarola
4 MR. SCAROLA: That's quite all right,
5 thank you.
6 I know that over the speakerphone, it's
7 difficult, and I take no offense to the
8 interruption. I know it was inadvertent.
9 But I would ask that the witness be
10 instructed to discontinue that improper
11 assertion of statements of opinion when no
12 opinions are being requested.
13 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Counsel, do you
14 have a response? I think Mr. Scarola is done.
15 MR. INDYKE: My response is to the extent
16 that you're attempting to imply anything
17 from -- imply a waiver from Mr. Dershowitz,
18 Mr. Epstein does not waive, and instructs
19 Mr. Dershowitz that he can make no such waiver.
20 THE WITNESS: I have not refused to
21 answer.
22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on one
23 second. Let me say this: I would suggest that
24 I don't take such inference that he's waiving
25 based upon his general statements.
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1 What -- we have been down a little bit of
2 this road this morning on trying to get to what
3 appears to be privileged information or
4 information that -- or activity that was
5 undertaken or not undertaken during the course
6 of the representation, the relationship the
7 attorney-client relationship between
8 Mr. Dershowitz and Mr. Epstein.
9 And at this point, based upon the
10 objection, I will uphold the objection and
11 we'll move forward.
12 MR. SCAROLA: The second part of my
13 request is that Mr. Dershowitz be instructed to
14 refrain from expressing a desire to answer
15 questions. It's not responsive. It implies
16 that if he could answer, the answers would be
17 favorable.
18 The implication is improper, and the
19 insertion into the record of the implication is
20 improper. If he can't answer the question, he
21 should simply say he cannot answer based on
22 privilege.
23 THE WITNESS: Can I respond?
24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No. Let me
25 respond.
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1 I think that's appropriate. I do actually
2 agree with Mr. Scarola in this respect. I do
3 think that you should be responsive
4 specifically to the question if you can.
5 Where you can't, you state you can't. I
6 believe that the record is now full of your
7 views on some of this in a generic way, and so
8 with that said, I would ask that you be more
9 pointed with your answers.
10 THE WITNESS: I appreciate that. I just
11 want to comment that I did not ever refuse to
12 answer any of those questions. It was
13 instructed not to answer any of those
14 questions.
15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I do understand
16 that. For purposes of some efficiency here, I
17 would like to get through this within the time
18 alloted.
19 MR. EDWARDS: Me, too. Thank you.
20 BY MR. EDWARDS:
21 Q. Is there any nonprivileged information
22 which would demonstrate whether
23 statement that she was flown on Jeffrey Epstein's
24 plane while underage was true or false?
25 A. I'm sure there must be, but I don't have
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1 it in my mind right now, so I can't answer that
2 question.
3 Q. The flight logs were previously marked
4 as --
5 MR. SCAROLA: Exhibit 7.
6 BY MR. EDWARDS:
7 Q. -- as Exhibit 7 to the deposition. I'll
8 show you pages from Exhibit 7 which indicate the
9 dates of the flight logs for those on the phone
10 November 2002 through January -- sorry,
11 November 2000 through January 2001 and January 2001
12 through February 20th, 2001.
13 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Counsel?
14 MR. SCOTT: Okay.
15 A. Yes, I see the flights that you have
16 marked in green.
17 BY MR. EDWARDS:
18 Q. Do the flight logs indicate
passenger on Jeffrey Epstein's plane
II~sa
20 with Jeffrey Epstein?
21 A. Well, the first one I look at does not.
22 It has and Although it's
23 underlined, it doesn't suggest
24 The second one does say
â– . And the fourth and fifth ones say
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1 . And on the next page, two of them say
2 , yes.
3 Q. These in the year 2000 and early 2001; is
4 that correct?
5 A. I can't see dates. I see 2001. I see
6 November 2000. Could you remind me of
' birthday.
8 Q.
9 A. So she would be I at this
10 time.
11 Q. So she's traveling as a passenger under
12 the age of 18? That's my question.
13 A. Under the age of 18, but the age of
14 consent in numerous places that she flew to were 17
15 and 16. So New York, the age is 17, to my
16 recollection. And in New Mexico, I think it's 17.
17 And the Virgin Islands, I think it's 16. So the
18 answer to the question is she underage might well be
19 no.
20 Q. My question was, is there nonprivileged
21 information that would indicate the truth or falsity
22 of her statement that she traveled on Jeffrey
23 Epstein's airplane with Jeffrey Epstein while under
24 the age of 18?
25 A. I do not know of any statement that she
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1 said -- may have said it, but I don't have in my
2 mind any statement that says below the age of 18 as
3 distinguished from when she was underage. So you
4 would have to show me. If the statement was below
5 the age of 18, that would be correct. If the
6 statement would be underage, that would be more
7 questionable.
8 Q. Do you know the purpose for which she was
9 traveling with Jeffrey Epstein during the flights
10 indicated on those logs?
11 A. I do not.
12 MR. SCOTT: Privileged.
13 MR. INDYKE: Objection, work product,
14 attorney-client, common interest.
15 BY MR. EDWARDS:
16 Q. Your answer is "I do not"?
17 A. I do not.
18 Q. You have not ascertained from any source,
19 is what you're telling us, the purpose for her
20 travels with Jeffrey Epstein, correct?
21 MR. INDYKE: Objection. Same objection
22 and instruction.
23 BY MR. EDWARDS:
24 Q. You are unable to answer, or you have not?
25 A. I have been instructed not to answer.
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1 Q. I misunderstood you. I thought you said
2 earlier "I have not," indicating that you don't know
3 the purpose?
4 A. I said that in answer to one question.
5 You've asked me other questions.
6 Q. Is there a legitimate purpose for her
7 being 17 years old, traveling with Jeffrey Epstein?
8 MR. SCOTT: Objection, argumentative.
9 MR. INDYKE: Objection. Same objection,
10 same instructions.
11 BY MR. EDWARDS:
12 Q. Isn't it a federal crime to knowingly
13 transport an individual who has not attained the age
14 of 18 years in interstate commerce with the intent
15 that that individual engage in prostitution or in
16 any sexual activity?
17 A. I haven't read the statute clearly, but I
18 think that's an accurate paraphrase of my
19 understanding of the law, yeah.
20 Q. Would you agree that that flight log in
21 front of you indicates a federal crime was being
22 committed against at the time when
23 she has said a federal crime was being committed
24 against her?
25 A. Oh, absolutely not.
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1 MR. INDYKE: Objection.
2 A. Does not prove a federal crime.
3 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
4 instruction.
5 BY MR. EDWARDS:
6 Q. So that goes back to my last question.
7 What is, then, the legitimate reason that causes
8 that flight to fall outside of this criminal statute
9 that I just read to you?
10 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
11 instruction.
12 A. I can give this answer. My understanding
13 of federal law imposes the burden of proof on the
14 prosecution to demonstrate one of the illicit
15 purposes, and this does not satisfy that burden of
16 proof. So this would not prove that a federal crime
17 occurred. It would prove one element of that crime.
18 BY MR. EDWARDS:
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 BY MR. EDWARDS:
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Move forward.
22 BY MR. EDWARDS:
23 Q. Let me try to understand that which you
24 are explaining right now, which is are you saying
25 that if she was traveling on Jeffrey Epstein's
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1 airplane while underage for the purposes of sex and
2 or prostitution, that --
3 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
4 instructions.
5 BY MR. EDWARDS:
6 Q. -- she was not being sexually trafficked
7 or would not be a victim of that statute?
8 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
9 instruction.
10 MR. EDWARDS: I'm asking a hypothetical
11 now based on his last statement.
12 MR. SCOTT: That's not a hypothetical.
13 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That's not how
14 you framed it.
15 BY MR. EDWARDS:
16 Q. Let me reframe it, then.
17 Assuming that -- I'll give you a
18 hypothetical based on what you say her friends have
19 told you, which is that she is free to leave while
20 being taken across state lines by Jeffrey Epstein.
21 This is the hypothetical. And being used for sexual
22 purposes. Is she, in that hypothetical, not a
23 victim to sexual trafficking?
24 MR. SCOTT: Objection to form,
25 speculation, argumentative. Can you answer
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1 that?
2 A. I can answer it. Since you gave me a
3 hypothetical, as a law professor for 50 years, I
4 would give this as a hypothetical to my class. I
5 would ask my students do you think it's trafficking,
6 do you think a woman has been trafficked when she
7 voluntarily, below the age of consent in some
8 states, above the age of consent in other states,
9 when she voluntarily engages in sexual conduct for
10 money, free to leave at any time.
11 I think it would be an interesting
12 classroom discussion about whether that constitutes
13 trafficking.
14 That's a different question from whether
15 or not that would violate the statute. That would
16 violate the statute. But your question is, would it
17 constitute trafficking. That would be a very
18 interesting law school hypothetical.
19 BY MR. EDWARDS:
20 Q. In your opinion, does it constitute
21 trafficking?
22 A. I think the word "trafficking" is
23 overused, and I think should be reserved for the
24 kinds of people who I have enormous sympathy for,
25 people who have no choice, no options, whose
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1 passports have been taken away, who have been forced
2 and coerced in some way to engage in sexual conduct.
3 And I think it begins to weaken the very
4 important term "trafficking" when it's applied to a
5 volunteer, close to her 18th birthday who was
6 enjoying and spending money and has the option of
7 leaving. I know that Sigrid McCawley is shaking her
8 head, but that's my honest opinion.
9 Q. Does your answer to the hypothetical
10 change if we rewind time
11 when she's 15 or
12 16 years old? Meaning are you making a distinction
13 because she's 17 as opposed to 16 or 15? If so,
14 what's the cutoff?
15 A. Well, I think that age is relevant
16 MR. INDYKE: For my clarification, this is
17 all hypothetical?
18 MR. SCAROLA: Yes, it is.
19 A. Age is one of the relevant factors. It's
20 not the only relevant factor. It's one of the
21 relevant factors. That's why your hypothetical was
22 17, almost 18, 17 and a half.
23 BY MR. EDWARDS:
24 Q. Let's get that right. That's when,
25
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1 A. We're talking about
2 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: We're still
3 operating under the hypothetical?
4 MR. EDWARDS: We are. I thought he said
5 that my hypothetical was almost 18. Which in
6 this hypothetical, she turns
7
8 THE WITNESS: =, the same year.
9 BY MR. EDWARDS:
10 Q. Was she lying when she said that
11 Epstein --
12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Are we now done
13 with the hypothetical?
14 MR. EDWARDS: Yes, we are.
15 BY MR. EDWARDS:
16 Q. engaged in sex with many underage
17 girls? Was she lying when she said that?
18 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
19 instructions.
20 A. I can only say this. You --
21 MR. SIMPSON: Was there an instruction?
22 A. There was an instruction, but I can answer
23 without that.
24 You have accused me of having sex with
25 many underage girls --
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1 MR. EDWARDS: I move to strike this as
2 nonresponsive to my question.
3 A. -- based on no evidence whatsoever.
4 MR. EDWARDS: I want a ruling on the
5 Motion to Strike.
6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let me hear the
7 rest of it.
8 A. So when you say "many," I need to know
9 with some precision what you have in mind.
10 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'll strike the
11 first part of it, the first part of his answer.
12 And if you can assist him in defining " many."
13 BY MR. EDWARDS:
14 Q. Sure. You do know Bob Josefsberg,
15 correct?
16 A. I've known him since 1959.
17 Q. And you are aware that he represented, I
18 believe, more than 15 girls who claimed to have been
19 victims of Mr. Epstein in this case, aren't you?
20 A. I recommended him for that job because I
21 think so highly of him.
22 Q. And in his Complaints, are you aware that
23 he's made the allegation that Defendant Epstein has
24 a sexual preference for underage minor girls? Are
25 you aware of that?
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1 MR. SCOTT: Just for the record, object to
2 the relevancy of all of this.
3 A. I'm not aware of that.
4 MR. INDYKE: Just for the record, to the
5 extent that Alan's answer requires him to
6 invade privilege, I would object and instruct
7 him not to answer.
8 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Within the
9 confines of the privilege objection, if you can
10 answer.
11 A. I'm not aware that he said that. I
12 haven't read his pleadings.
13 BY MR. EDWARDS:
14 Q. Okay. Are you aware that in his
15 pleadings, he wrote "Defendant Epstein used his
16 resources and his influence over vulnerable minor
17 girls to engage in a systemic -- systematic pattern
18 of sexually exploited behavior"?
19 A. I'm not aware.
20 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
21 instruction.
22 A. I was not involved in that aspect of the
23 case.
24 BY MR. EDWARDS:
25 Q. You were not involved in the facts part of
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1 the case?
2 A. I was not involved in the compensation
3 part of the case. The part that Bob Josefsberg was
4 involved in, I was not involved in.
5 MR. INDYKE: Alan, just admonishment,
6 let's not go into the subject matter of your
7 representation, please.
8 BY MR. EDWARDS:
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18 BY MR. EDWARDS:
19
20
22
23
24
25
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1 question.
2 BY MR. EDWARDS:
3 Q. In 2009, when that Complaint and that
4 allegation was asserted, are you aware that Jeffrey
5 Epstein never refuted that allegation in any
6 pleading?
7 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
8 instruction.
9 BY MR. EDWARDS:
10 Q. Were you representing Jeffrey Epstein in
11 2009?
12 A. Not in connection with that case. And I
13 was not aware of what his response was, if any.
14 Q. Are you aware that after that allegation
15 was made by , that Jeffrey Epstein
16 paid money to settle her case?
17 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
18 instruction.
19 MR. SCOTT: Let me object to all the
20 relevancy of this.
21 A. My understanding is that the plea bargain
22 required him to make payments regardless of what his
23 views may have been, that he was absolutely required
24 to make those payments. He had no discretion.
25 That's my understanding. I may be wrong, but you
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1 can check the actual nonprosecution agreement, but
2 that's my understanding of what it said, that he
3 could not contest anything.
4 BY MR. EDWARDS:
5 Q. You were one of the attorneys that
6 represented Jeffrey Epstein in the negotiations with
7 the United States Attorney's Office, right?
8 A. Right, along with Kenneth Starr --
9 MR. INDYKE: Same objection. Objection.
10 A. No, I don't think you can object to that.
11 These are people who are at the hearings, at the
12 events with the U.S. Attorney. The people who were
13 at the events representing Jeffrey Epstein is not
14 privileged, included Roy Black, Ken Starr, Marty
15 Weinberg, Jay Lefkowitz --
16 MR. SCAROLA: Not responsive.
17 A. -- Jerry Lefcourt.
18 BY MR. EDWARDS:
19 Q. I only asked if you were one of the
20 lawyers.
21 A. I was one of them, yes.
22 Q. The answer is yes?
23 A. The complete answer is yes, but the rest
24 of the people were part of the legal team.
25 Q. I will ask you when I want somebody else's
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1 name.
2 Were you a part of the negotiations in
3 October of 2007 when the special matter was
4 selected? You remember that part?
5 A. Is the special master Josephsburg?
6 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
7 instruction.
8 BY MR. EDWARDS:
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. My recollection is that I was simply asked
11 for a recommendation, but I played no further role.
12 Q. Were you aware that there was a joint
13 letter to the special master created between Jeffrey
14 Epstein's attorneys and the United States Attorney's
15 Office describing the investigation?
16 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
17 instruction.
18 A. I'm not -- as I sit here today, I have no
19 recollection of that.
20 BY MR. EDWARDS:
21 Q. Was lying when she says
22 that while underage, she was made to massage Jeffrey
23 Epstein in the nude, while he masturbated?
24 A. I have no idea.
25 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
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1 instruction.
2 BY MR. EDWARDS:
3 Q. If I show you the proposed joint letter to
4 the special master, will it refresh your
5 recollection?
6 A. I want to add to the last question When
7 I say I have no idea,
8
9
10
11 MR. EDWARDS: Move to strike as
12 nonresponsive.
13 A. But that's relevant to standing naked and
14 being masturbated.
15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Move on to your
16 next question.
17 A. Yes.
18 BY MR. EDWARDS:
19 Q. When I am asking for nonprivileged
20 information or evidence that would give you the
21 ability to tell me whether is lying
22 when she says she had sex with Jeffrey Epstein while
23 underage, would you consider a joint letter crafted
24 between Jeffrey Epstein's lawyers and the United
25 States Attorney's Office to form the basis of that
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1 answer? Let me rephrase the question.
2 When I'm asking for nonprivileged
3 information that you may have to demonstrate the
4 truth or falsity of ' statement that
5 she was made to have sex with Jeffrey Epstein while
6 underage, would you consider the joint letter to the
7 special master evidence from which you could draw an
8 answer?
9 MR. SCOTT: Objection.
10 A. I would have to know more about it than
11 that. I would have to know the nature of the
12 letter, the reason it was sent.
13 BY MR. EDWARDS:
14 Q. Would you like to review the letter? Is
15 that going to help you?
16 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Ask him if he's
17 seen the letter first.
18 BY MR. EDWARDS:
19 Q. You were part of the team that was mainly
20 negotiating with U.S. Attorney's Office, correct?
21 A. I was only negotiating the criminal part
22 of the case.
23 Q. Okay. I'm going to show you the letter,
24 and if you had nothing to do with it, tell me that.
25 If you've never seen it before, then tell me that.
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1 I guess my first question is, have you
2 seen it?
3 MR. INDYKE: I would object to that.
4 MR. SCOTT: I would like to make a request
5 for this depo and future depositions, if they
6 are going to show exhibits to a witness, I
7 think we should be -- have a copy of them.
8 We provided copies to you of all exhibits
9 we used during the deposition of your client.
10 And I think if you're going to pull out
11 exhibits and have one, you should have at least
12 copies for counsel, and I would agree to do the
13 same thing, rather than having to run and make
14 a copy and all the rest of it.
15 MR. EDWARDS: I wasn't ready for him to be
16 unfamiliar with his and his legal team's
17 correspondence.
18 MR. SCOTT: I understand, but you haven't
19 had any all day. So all I'm asking you,
20 Mr. Edwards, is that we have copies of exhibits
21 that you intend to confront the witness with.
22 That's -- as you pointed out, you've got all
23 the questions laid out, so you know where we're
24 headed. There's a note on here. Do you want
25 that on there?
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1 MR. EDWARDS: No.
2 MR. SCOTT: It's one of your cheat sheet
3 notes. I don't know if you really want that on
4 there.
5 MR. EDWARDS: It just says "Isn't this
6 nonprivileged?"
7 MR. SCOTT: Okay. It's still an exhibit
8 going into evidence, right? Without your
9 notes?
10 MR. SIMPSON: Can we get it marked?
11 THE WITNESS: This is a draft, not a
12 letter.
13 MR. EDWARDS: I said it's a proposed
14 letter. I read the title exactly.
15 (Thereupon, marked as Plaintiff Exhibit
16 19.)
17 A. This is not -- it's not familiar to me
18 except that what I said previously that as part of
19 the resolution of this case, Mr. Epstein agreed he
20 would not contest jurisdiction for the victims who
21 chose to sue him, et cetera, is consistent with my
22 memory, but I have no recollection of actually
23 seeing this draft, this proposed draft.
24 MR. SCOTT: That's number?
25 COURT REPORTER: Nineteen.
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1 BY MR. EDWARDS:
2 Q. Wouldn't you agree wasn't
one of the listed victims to the
4 nonprosecution agreement?
5 A. If so, I was not aware of.
6 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
7 instruction.
8 BY MR. EDWARDS:
9 Q. As you sit here today, after having made
10 many statements about being a
11 serial liar --
12 A. She is.
13 Q. -- you have no idea whether she was a
14 listed victim to the nonprosecution agreement?
15 MR. SCOTT: Objection, asked and answered.
16 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
17 instruction.
18 A. Right now, I have no recollection of
19 whether she was listed or not.
20 BY MR. EDWARDS:
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. I know that the FBI tried to speak to her
23 and she wouldn't speak to them is my recollection.
24 MR. SCAROLA: That's not responsive.
25 MR. EDWARDS: Not responsive.
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1 MR. SCAROLA: Move to strike.
2 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That, I will
3 strike. Move forward.
4 BY MR. EDWARDS:
5 Q. Was lying when she says that
6 Jeffrey Epstein also had sex with a girl named
8
9 MR. INDYKE: Same objections, same
10 instruction.
11 MR. SCOTT: Can you answer that?
12 A. I've never heard that name. It's not
13 familiar to me at all.
14 BY MR. EDWARDS:
15 Q. Was lying when she says
16 she traveled to Jeffrey Epstein's island when
17 underage?
18
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SEVENTEENTH JUDICIAL
CIRCUIT IN AND FOR BROWARD COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO.: CACE 15-000072
BRADLEY J. EDWARDS and PAUL G.
CASSELL,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ,
Defendant.
VIDEOTAPE CONTINUED DEPOSITION OF
ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ
VOLUME 4
Pages 462 through 647
Tuesday, January 12, 2016
1:05 p.m. - 4:45 p.m.
Stenographically Reported By:
Kimberly Fontalvo, RPR, CLR
Realtime Systems Administrator
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1 APPEARANCES:
2
On behalf of Plaintiffs:
3
SEARCY, DENNEY, SCAROLA
4 BARNHART & SHIPLEY, P.A.
5
6
7
8 On behalf of Defendant:
9 COLE, SCOTT & KISSANE, P.A.
Dadeland Centre II - Suite 1400
10
11
12 :
I I I. P , . (Via phone)
IRIR
13 il
--an --
14 SWEDER & ROSS, LLP
15
BY: KENNETH A. SWEDER, ESQ.
16
17 --and--
18 WILEY, REIN
19
BY: RICHARD A. SIMPSON, ESQ.
20
21
22
23
24
25
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EFTA00615584
464
1 APPEARANCES (Continued):
2
3 On behalf of Jeffrey Epstein:
4
5 Sligi
BY: DARREN K. INDYKE, ESQ. (Via phone)
6
7 On behalf of
8 BOIES, SCHILLER & FLEXNER, LLP
9
BY: SIGRID STONE MCCAWLEY, ESQ.
10
11
12 ALSO PRESENT:
13 Edward J. Pozzuoli, Special Master
14 Sean D. Reyes, Utah Attorney General Office
15 Travis Gallagher, Videographer
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 INDEX
2
3
Examination Page
4
5 VOLUME 4 (Pages 462 - 647)
6
7 Certificate of Oath 645
Certificate of Reporter 646
8 Read and Sign Letter to Witness 647
Errata Sheet (forwarded upon execution) 648
9
10 PLAINTIFF EXHIBITS
11
12 No. Page
13 19 Proposed Joint Letter to the Special 501
Master
14
20 Document reflecting entry for Bands, 548
15 Doug
16 21 562
17
18 22 Letter dated Jul 6 2007 from Gerald 612
B. Lefcourt to First
19 Assistant U.S. torney an o hers
22 pages
20
23 Document titled NewsRoom/Alan 623
21 Dershowitz to talk in Alburquerque
22 24 628
23
24
25
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1 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going back on the record.
2 The time is approximately 1:05 p.m.
3 MR. INDYKE: This is Darren Indyke. If it
4 would be okay with everyone, I would like to
5 clarify a couple of points for the record.
6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Go ahead.
7 MR. INDYKE: First, I apologize for the
8 spotty reception during the morning session. I
9 was having difficulty hearing you folks, and I
10 think you were having some difficulty hearing
11 me. I think I've corrected it, but if I could
12 ask if you could move the mic closer to him
13 somehow or if I let you know that I can't hear,
14 if somebody could just speak up.
15 MR. SCAROLA: Did we turn that speaker
16 volume up?
17 MR. SIMPSON: Let's turn up the volume.
18 MR. INDYKE: Secondly, as to the argument
19 that work product belongs to the attorney and
20 not the client, I want to make sure that it's
21 clear that we disagree with that vehemently.
22 We believe that it is a client's every bit
23 as much as an attorney's and an attorney has no
24 right to waive that privilege over the
25 objection of a client. If that were true,
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1 there would be nothing improper with an
2 attorney publishing his entire case file over
3 the objection of his client with the exception
4 of communications back and forth between
5 attorney and client. Strategies, witnesses,
6 things like that could be disclosed over the
7 objection of a client, and that's just not the
8 case.
9 So for the record, Mr. Epstein reasserts
10 the work product privilege and would continue
11 do so. And I would instruct Mr. Dershowitz not
12 provide any response to any question that would
13 require Mr. Dershowitz to invade that
14 privilege.
15 Third, I guess as to the joint defense
16 agreement, it is our position that any party to
17 the joint defense agreement may assert it, and
18 it doesn't require disclosure of all parties to
19 the agreement in order for the assertion to be
20 valid.
21 I would note that disclosure of the
22 parties to a joint defense agreement are often,
23 by the terms of a joint defense agreement,
24 subject to confidentiality and, thus, protected
25 by the privilege.
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1 And I would also point out that it's not
2 necessary for a person to be a party to a joint
3 defense agreement for the communications with
4 that person by a lawyer who is making those
5 communications on behalf of the client party to
6 the agreement to be subject to the joint
7 defense agreement.
8 And while we need to do some more
9 background research to get the full details of
10 the joint defense agreement, I would -- for
11 those reasons, to the extent that any
12 disclosure in response to any questions posed
13 to Mr. Dershowitz would require Mr. Dershowitz
14 to invade that joint defense agreement, we
15 would instruct -- we would object and instruct
16 that Mr. Dershowitz not respond. I think that
17 covers everything that I have.
18 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Thank you.
19 Let's proceed.
20 MR. SCAROLA: Before we proceed, I want to
21 note for the record that the various
22 transcripts of statements made by
23 Mr. Dershowitz that had been requested during
24 the earlier session of the deposition were
25 marked as Exhibit Number 1 to the prior
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1 sessions of Mr. Dershowitz's deposition.
2 I believe that everything that was
3 referenced has been disclosed. To the extent
4 that opposing counsel identifies anything that
5 is not included in Composite Exhibit Number 1
6 previously marked, we would be happy to provide
7 a copy of that as soon as a copy --
8 MR. INDYKE: Is that Mr. Scarola?
9 MR. SCAROLA: It is, yes.
10 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on. Speak
11 up a little bit, Jack.
12 MR. SCAROLA: Certainly. As soon as a
13 copy that does not include work product
14 notations is available, and the portions of
15 statements made by Mr. Dershowitz not included
16 in Exhibit Number 1 are identified to us, we
17 will provide those.
18 MR. SCOTT: I think what we most want,
19 Jack, are the -- I think we have one
20 transcript, but I think there's another
21 transcript of the bench and Bar that we need.
22 MR. SCAROLA: There are multiple
23 transcripts included in Exhibit Number 1.
24 MR. EDWARDS: If there are transcripts
25 that you need that are not included in Exhibit
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1 Number 1, tell me. I'll get them to you, and
2 I'll get them to you tomorrow since we're here
3 again.
4 MR. SCAROLA: I just want the record to
5 reflect that I believe that everything that
6 we've made reference to is included in Exhibit
7 Number 1. If I'm incorrect in that regard, you
8 let us know what it is, we'll give it to you.
9 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Darren, anything
10 on your end? You okay?
11 MR. INDYKE: Yep.
12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I would welcome
13 the parties just to get together to make sure
14 they have a complete set of what they need, and
15 we'll go from there.
16 MR. EDWARDS: Absolutely. Just for the
17 record, my only real objection was not turning
18 over what I had marked and my work product.
19 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I understood.
20 MR. EDWARDS: I'll get everything to him
21 tomorrow.
22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I took it that
23 way.
24 BY MR. EDWARDS:
25 Q. Going back to testing the credibility of
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1 A. I imagine there would be if there were
2 videotapes. I've always said from the beginning, I
3 hope there are videotapes of every moment in
4 life, because they would exculpate
5 me completely. So I hope there are videotapes.
6 Q. Aren't you aware that there were
7 videotapes that were taken within your client
8 Jeffrey Epstein's various homes?
9 MR. INDYKE: Objection. Work product,
10 attorney-client. Common interest.
11 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Carve out the
12 privileged issue and non-privileged, if he
13 gained information through a nonprivileged
14 source.
15 BY MR. EDWARDS:
16 Q. Well, the statement was -- which I was not
17 going there. The statement was, if there are
18 videos, I want them all out there?
19 A. Absolutely.
20 Q. So, isn't it true that you know that there
21 were indeed videos taken from within your client's
22 various homes?
23 MR. INDYKE: Same objection.
24 BY MR. EDWARDS:
25 Q. Privileged or nonprivileged.
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1 MR. SCOTT: Asked and answered in the last
2 depo.
3 A. I hope there were videos. I hope there
4 are videos of every moment of ' life
5 from the time she allegedly met Jeffrey Epstein to
6 the time she left. I hope there were videos in
7 every bedroom. I hope there were videos in every
8 massage room. I hope there are videos all over.
9 And from day one, I categorically stated
10 that there could be no photograph, no video that
11 would demonstrate that what she said was true,
12 because I knew it was false. She knew it was false.
13 And you knew it was false.
14 BY MR. EDWARDS:
15 Q. In representing a client, don't you try to
16 determine or ascertain what evidence does exist that
17 may incriminate or exonerate any particular client?
18 A. Of course.
19 Q. Okay. In making that inquiry in this
20 case, haven't you learned that there are --
21 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Which case?
22 BY MR. EDWARDS:
23 Q. In the case in which you represented
24 Jeffrey Epstein, haven't you learned that there were
25 video recordings taken from within Jeffrey Epstein's
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474
1 various homes as well as his airplane?
2 MR. INDYKE: Objection, same objection.
3 Instruct him not to answer.
4 A. I hope there were.
5 BY MR. EDWARDS:
6 Q. Will you then assist us
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- in obtaining those videos from your
9 client?
10 A. I will assist you in getting any possible
11 videotapes of r any of the
12 locations where the false accusation against me was
13 made. I would be thrilled to have videos of every
14 moment of my life during that period of time, and
15 every moment of her life. Because they would prove
16 conclusively that which I know to be conclusively
17 false, namely that she made up the stories about me.
18 Q. Okay. Just so I understand your
19 agreement, is that --
20 MR. INDYKE: Just so we're clear,
21 Mr. Epstein is not waiving any of his
22 objections as to any such information to the
23 extent that it exists.
24 BY MR. EDWARDS:
25 Q. Okay. Well, this video or photograph --
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475
1 if there are videos or photographs of
that have been taken or recorded from
3 Jeffrey Epstein's home, is that -- is that evidence
4 that you will assist us in obtaining?
5 A. I will try my best to try to get every
6 possible
7 MR. INDYKE: Objection.
8 A. -- photograph -- I'm entitled to say what
9 I'll try to best to do. I will try my best to get
10 every possible video, photograph, and any other
11 piece of objective evidence because I know it will
12 all completely prove beyond any doubt that I wasn't
13 there.
14 BY MR. EDWARDS:
15 Q. And if that information has already
16 exchanged hands -- that evidence has already
17 exchanged hands from Jeffrey Epstein's hands to the
18 hands of his attorneys, as part of their work
19 product, would you agree to waive your work product
20 privilege to produce that evidence?
21 MR. SCOTT: Objection.
22 MR. INDYKE: Objection.
23 A. I don't have any such evidence. I wish I
24 did.
25
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EFTA00615596
476
1 BY MR. EDWARDS:
2 Q. With respect to the search warrant that
3 was executed on Jeffrey Epstein's house, isn't it
4 true that just before that search warrant was
5 executed, the -- Jeffrey Epstein's legal team
6 ordered that three computers be removed from Jeffrey
7 Epstein's home that contained pornographic images,
8 including those of
9 A. I made no such order.
10 MR. INDYKE: Same objection. And instruct
11 not to answer.
12 BY MR. EDWARDS:
13 Q. I didn't ask if you made the order. Isn't
14 it true that that occurred?
15 MR. INDYKE: Same objection.
16 MR. SIMPSON: Darren?
17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'm not so sure
18 you can waive that objection.
19 A. I wish I could.
20 BY MR. EDWARDS:
21 Q. Didn't the U.S. Attorney's Office issue
22 grand jury subpoenas to the investigators that were
23 working on Jeffrey Epstein's behalf and were holding
24 those computers, and those grand jury subpoenas
25 outstanding at the time that the case resolved?
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1 A. All I can say --
2 MR. INDYKE: Same objection and
3 instruction.
4 A. -- is I wish every video, every computer,
5 I wish everything that would show where
was had been turned over and would be turned
7 over.
8 MR. SCAROLA: Mr. Dershowitz's repeated
9 comments about what he wishes would happen are
10 an indirect statement that if he could answer
11 the questions, the responses that he would give
12 would be favorable to him and would exonerate
13 him.
14 His wishes are not the subject of the
15 inquiry. And every occasion on which he
16 expresses a wish and refuses to give an answer
17 is unresponsive to the questions that are being
18 asked, and should be stricken.
19 They also constitute a waiver to the
20 extent that they imply that if the question
21 could be answered, the answer would be
22 favorable.
23 I would ask you to instruct
24 MR. INDYKE: And to the extent that they
25 imply a waiver --
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478
1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on a
2 second. Let him finish.
3 MR. INDYKE: I apologize, Mr. Scarola
4 MR. SCAROLA: That's quite all right,
5 thank you.
6 I know that over the speakerphone, it's
7 difficult, and I take no offense to the
8 interruption. I know it was inadvertent.
9 But I would ask that the witness be
10 instructed to discontinue that improper
11 assertion of statements of opinion when no
12 opinions are being requested.
13 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Counsel, do you
14 have a response? I think Mr. Scarola is done.
15 MR. INDYKE: My response is to the extent
16 that you're attempting to imply anything
17 from -- imply a waiver from Mr. Dershowitz,
18 Mr. Epstein does not waive, and instructs
19 Mr. Dershowitz that he can make no such waiver.
20 THE WITNESS: I have not refused to
21 answer.
22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on one
23 second. Let me say this: I would suggest that
24 I don't take such inference that he's waiving
25 based upon his general statements.
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1 What -- we have been down a little bit of
2 this road this morning on trying to get to what
3 appears to be privileged information or
4 information that -- or activity that was
5 undertaken or not undertaken during the course
6 of the representation, the relationship the
7 attorney-client relationship between
8 Mr. Dershowitz and Mr. Epstein.
9 And at this point, based upon the
10 objection, I will uphold the objection and
11 we'll move forward.
12 MR. SCAROLA: The second part of my
13 request is that Mr. Dershowitz be instructed to
14 refrain from expressing a desire to answer
15 questions. It's not responsive. It implies
16 that if he could answer, the answers would be
17 favorable.
18 The implication is improper, and the
19 insertion into the record of the implication is
20 improper. If he can't answer the question, he
21 should simply say he cannot answer based on
22 privilege.
23 THE WITNESS: Can I respond?
24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No. Let me
25 respond.
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1 I think that's appropriate. I do actually
2 agree with Mr. Scarola in this respect. I do
3 think that you should be responsive
4 specifically to the question if you can.
5 Where you can't, you state you can't. I
6 believe that the record is now full of your
7 views on some of this in a generic way, and so
8 with that said, I would ask that you be more
9 pointed with your answers.
10 THE WITNESS: I appreciate that. I just
11 want to comment that I did not ever refuse to
12 answer any of those questions. It was
13 instructed not to answer any of those
14 questions.
15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I do understand
16 that. For purposes of some efficiency here, I
17 would like to get through this within the time
18 alloted.
19 MR. EDWARDS: Me, too. Thank you.
20 BY MR. EDWARDS:
21 Q. Is there any nonprivileged information
22 which would demonstrate whether
23 statement that she was flown on Jeffrey Epstein's
24 plane while underage was true or false?
25 A. I'm sure there must be, but I don't have
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1 it in my mind right now, so I can't answer that
2 question.
3 Q. The flight logs were previously marked
4 as --
5 MR. SCAROLA: Exhibit 7.
6 BY MR. EDWARDS:
7 Q. -- as Exhibit 7 to the deposition. I'll
8 show you pages from Exhibit 7 which indicate the
9 dates of the flight logs for those on the phone
10 November 2002 through January -- sorry,
11 November 2000 through January 2001 and January 2001
12 through February 20th, 2001.
13 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Counsel?
14 MR. SCOTT: Okay.
15 A. Yes, I see the flights that you have
16 marked in green.
17 BY MR. EDWARDS:
18 Q. Do the flight logs indicate
passenger on Jeffrey Epstein's plane
II~sa
20 with Jeffrey Epstein?
21 A. Well, the first one I look at does not.
22 It has and Although it's
23 underlined, it doesn't suggest
24 The second one does say
â– . And the fourth and fifth ones say
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1 . And on the next page, two of them say
2 , yes.
3 Q. These in the year 2000 and early 2001; is
4 that correct?
5 A. I can't see dates. I see 2001. I see
6 November 2000. Could you remind me of
' birthday.
8 Q.
9 A. So she would be I at this
10 time.
11 Q. So she's traveling as a passenger under
12 the age of 18? That's my question.
13 A. Under the age of 18, but the age of
14 consent in numerous places that she flew to were 17
15 and 16. So New York, the age is 17, to my
16 recollection. And in New Mexico, I think it's 17.
17 And the Virgin Islands, I think it's 16. So the
18 answer to the question is she underage might well be
19 no.
20 Q. My question was, is there nonprivileged
21 information that would indicate the truth or falsity
22 of her statement that she traveled on Jeffrey
23 Epstein's airplane with Jeffrey Epstein while under
24 the age of 18?
25 A. I do not know of any statement that she
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1 said -- may have said it, but I don't have in my
2 mind any statement that says below the age of 18 as
3 distinguished from when she was underage. So you
4 would have to show me. If the statement was below
5 the age of 18, that would be correct. If the
6 statement would be underage, that would be more
7 questionable.
8 Q. Do you know the purpose for which she was
9 traveling with Jeffrey Epstein during the flights
10 indicated on those logs?
11 A. I do not.
12 MR. SCOTT: Privileged.
13 MR. INDYKE: Objection, work product,
14 attorney-client, common interest.
15 BY MR. EDWARDS:
16 Q. Your answer is "I do not"?
17 A. I do not.
18 Q. You have not ascertained from any source,
19 is what you're telling us, the purpose for her
20 travels with Jeffrey Epstein, correct?
21 MR. INDYKE: Objection. Same objection
22 and instruction.
23 BY MR. EDWARDS:
24 Q. You are unable to answer, or you have not?
25 A. I have been instructed not to answer.
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1 Q. I misunderstood you. I thought you said
2 earlier "I have not," indicating that you don't know
3 the purpose?
4 A. I said that in answer to one question.
5 You've asked me other questions.
6 Q. Is there a legitimate purpose for her
7 being 17 years old, traveling with Jeffrey Epstein?
8 MR. SCOTT: Objection, argumentative.
9 MR. INDYKE: Objection. Same objection,
10 same instructions.
11 BY MR. EDWARDS:
12 Q. Isn't it a federal crime to knowingly
13 transport an individual who has not attained the age
14 of 18 years in interstate commerce with the intent
15 that that individual engage in prostitution or in
16 any sexual activity?
17 A. I haven't read the statute clearly, but I
18 think that's an accurate paraphrase of my
19 understanding of the law, yeah.
20 Q. Would you agree that that flight log in
21 front of you indicates a federal crime was being
22 committed against at the time when
23 she has said a federal crime was being committed
24 against her?
25 A. Oh, absolutely not.
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1 MR. INDYKE: Objection.
2 A. Does not prove a federal crime.
3 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
4 instruction.
5 BY MR. EDWARDS:
6 Q. So that goes back to my last question.
7 What is, then, the legitimate reason that causes
8 that flight to fall outside of this criminal statute
9 that I just read to you?
10 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
11 instruction.
12 A. I can give this answer. My understanding
13 of federal law imposes the burden of proof on the
14 prosecution to demonstrate one of the illicit
15 purposes, and this does not satisfy that burden of
16 proof. So this would not prove that a federal crime
17 occurred. It would prove one element of that crime.
18 BY MR. EDWARDS:
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 BY MR. EDWARDS:
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Move forward.
22 BY MR. EDWARDS:
23 Q. Let me try to understand that which you
24 are explaining right now, which is are you saying
25 that if she was traveling on Jeffrey Epstein's
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1 airplane while underage for the purposes of sex and
2 or prostitution, that --
3 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
4 instructions.
5 BY MR. EDWARDS:
6 Q. -- she was not being sexually trafficked
7 or would not be a victim of that statute?
8 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
9 instruction.
10 MR. EDWARDS: I'm asking a hypothetical
11 now based on his last statement.
12 MR. SCOTT: That's not a hypothetical.
13 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That's not how
14 you framed it.
15 BY MR. EDWARDS:
16 Q. Let me reframe it, then.
17 Assuming that -- I'll give you a
18 hypothetical based on what you say her friends have
19 told you, which is that she is free to leave while
20 being taken across state lines by Jeffrey Epstein.
21 This is the hypothetical. And being used for sexual
22 purposes. Is she, in that hypothetical, not a
23 victim to sexual trafficking?
24 MR. SCOTT: Objection to form,
25 speculation, argumentative. Can you answer
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1 that?
2 A. I can answer it. Since you gave me a
3 hypothetical, as a law professor for 50 years, I
4 would give this as a hypothetical to my class. I
5 would ask my students do you think it's trafficking,
6 do you think a woman has been trafficked when she
7 voluntarily, below the age of consent in some
8 states, above the age of consent in other states,
9 when she voluntarily engages in sexual conduct for
10 money, free to leave at any time.
11 I think it would be an interesting
12 classroom discussion about whether that constitutes
13 trafficking.
14 That's a different question from whether
15 or not that would violate the statute. That would
16 violate the statute. But your question is, would it
17 constitute trafficking. That would be a very
18 interesting law school hypothetical.
19 BY MR. EDWARDS:
20 Q. In your opinion, does it constitute
21 trafficking?
22 A. I think the word "trafficking" is
23 overused, and I think should be reserved for the
24 kinds of people who I have enormous sympathy for,
25 people who have no choice, no options, whose
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1 passports have been taken away, who have been forced
2 and coerced in some way to engage in sexual conduct.
3 And I think it begins to weaken the very
4 important term "trafficking" when it's applied to a
5 volunteer, close to her 18th birthday who was
6 enjoying and spending money and has the option of
7 leaving. I know that Sigrid McCawley is shaking her
8 head, but that's my honest opinion.
9 Q. Does your answer to the hypothetical
10 change if we rewind time
11 when she's 15 or
12 16 years old? Meaning are you making a distinction
13 because she's 17 as opposed to 16 or 15? If so,
14 what's the cutoff?
15 A. Well, I think that age is relevant
16 MR. INDYKE: For my clarification, this is
17 all hypothetical?
18 MR. SCAROLA: Yes, it is.
19 A. Age is one of the relevant factors. It's
20 not the only relevant factor. It's one of the
21 relevant factors. That's why your hypothetical was
22 17, almost 18, 17 and a half.
23 BY MR. EDWARDS:
24 Q. Let's get that right. That's when,
25
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1 A. We're talking about
2 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: We're still
3 operating under the hypothetical?
4 MR. EDWARDS: We are. I thought he said
5 that my hypothetical was almost 18. Which in
6 this hypothetical, she turns
7
8 THE WITNESS: =, the same year.
9 BY MR. EDWARDS:
10 Q. Was she lying when she said that
11 Epstein --
12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Are we now done
13 with the hypothetical?
14 MR. EDWARDS: Yes, we are.
15 BY MR. EDWARDS:
16 Q. engaged in sex with many underage
17 girls? Was she lying when she said that?
18 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
19 instructions.
20 A. I can only say this. You --
21 MR. SIMPSON: Was there an instruction?
22 A. There was an instruction, but I can answer
23 without that.
24 You have accused me of having sex with
25 many underage girls --
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1 MR. EDWARDS: I move to strike this as
2 nonresponsive to my question.
3 A. -- based on no evidence whatsoever.
4 MR. EDWARDS: I want a ruling on the
5 Motion to Strike.
6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let me hear the
7 rest of it.
8 A. So when you say "many," I need to know
9 with some precision what you have in mind.
10 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'll strike the
11 first part of it, the first part of his answer.
12 And if you can assist him in defining " many."
13 BY MR. EDWARDS:
14 Q. Sure. You do know Bob Josefsberg,
15 correct?
16 A. I've known him since 1959.
17 Q. And you are aware that he represented, I
18 believe, more than 15 girls who claimed to have been
19 victims of Mr. Epstein in this case, aren't you?
20 A. I recommended him for that job because I
21 think so highly of him.
22 Q. And in his Complaints, are you aware that
23 he's made the allegation that Defendant Epstein has
24 a sexual preference for underage minor girls? Are
25 you aware of that?
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1 MR. SCOTT: Just for the record, object to
2 the relevancy of all of this.
3 A. I'm not aware of that.
4 MR. INDYKE: Just for the record, to the
5 extent that Alan's answer requires him to
6 invade privilege, I would object and instruct
7 him not to answer.
8 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Within the
9 confines of the privilege objection, if you can
10 answer.
11 A. I'm not aware that he said that. I
12 haven't read his pleadings.
13 BY MR. EDWARDS:
14 Q. Okay. Are you aware that in his
15 pleadings, he wrote "Defendant Epstein used his
16 resources and his influence over vulnerable minor
17 girls to engage in a systemic -- systematic pattern
18 of sexually exploited behavior"?
19 A. I'm not aware.
20 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
21 instruction.
22 A. I was not involved in that aspect of the
23 case.
24 BY MR. EDWARDS:
25 Q. You were not involved in the facts part of
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1 the case?
2 A. I was not involved in the compensation
3 part of the case. The part that Bob Josefsberg was
4 involved in, I was not involved in.
5 MR. INDYKE: Alan, just admonishment,
6 let's not go into the subject matter of your
7 representation, please.
8 BY MR. EDWARDS:
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18 BY MR. EDWARDS:
19
20
22
23
24
25
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1 question.
2 BY MR. EDWARDS:
3 Q. In 2009, when that Complaint and that
4 allegation was asserted, are you aware that Jeffrey
5 Epstein never refuted that allegation in any
6 pleading?
7 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
8 instruction.
9 BY MR. EDWARDS:
10 Q. Were you representing Jeffrey Epstein in
11 2009?
12 A. Not in connection with that case. And I
13 was not aware of what his response was, if any.
14 Q. Are you aware that after that allegation
15 was made by , that Jeffrey Epstein
16 paid money to settle her case?
17 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
18 instruction.
19 MR. SCOTT: Let me object to all the
20 relevancy of this.
21 A. My understanding is that the plea bargain
22 required him to make payments regardless of what his
23 views may have been, that he was absolutely required
24 to make those payments. He had no discretion.
25 That's my understanding. I may be wrong, but you
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1 can check the actual nonprosecution agreement, but
2 that's my understanding of what it said, that he
3 could not contest anything.
4 BY MR. EDWARDS:
5 Q. You were one of the attorneys that
6 represented Jeffrey Epstein in the negotiations with
7 the United States Attorney's Office, right?
8 A. Right, along with Kenneth Starr --
9 MR. INDYKE: Same objection. Objection.
10 A. No, I don't think you can object to that.
11 These are people who are at the hearings, at the
12 events with the U.S. Attorney. The people who were
13 at the events representing Jeffrey Epstein is not
14 privileged, included Roy Black, Ken Starr, Marty
15 Weinberg, Jay Lefkowitz --
16 MR. SCAROLA: Not responsive.
17 A. -- Jerry Lefcourt.
18 BY MR. EDWARDS:
19 Q. I only asked if you were one of the
20 lawyers.
21 A. I was one of them, yes.
22 Q. The answer is yes?
23 A. The complete answer is yes, but the rest
24 of the people were part of the legal team.
25 Q. I will ask you when I want somebody else's
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1 name.
2 Were you a part of the negotiations in
3 October of 2007 when the special matter was
4 selected? You remember that part?
5 A. Is the special master Josephsburg?
6 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
7 instruction.
8 BY MR. EDWARDS:
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. My recollection is that I was simply asked
11 for a recommendation, but I played no further role.
12 Q. Were you aware that there was a joint
13 letter to the special master created between Jeffrey
14 Epstein's attorneys and the United States Attorney's
15 Office describing the investigation?
16 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
17 instruction.
18 A. I'm not -- as I sit here today, I have no
19 recollection of that.
20 BY MR. EDWARDS:
21 Q. Was lying when she says
22 that while underage, she was made to massage Jeffrey
23 Epstein in the nude, while he masturbated?
24 A. I have no idea.
25 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
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1 instruction.
2 BY MR. EDWARDS:
3 Q. If I show you the proposed joint letter to
4 the special master, will it refresh your
5 recollection?
6 A. I want to add to the last question When
7 I say I have no idea,
8
9
10
11 MR. EDWARDS: Move to strike as
12 nonresponsive.
13 A. But that's relevant to standing naked and
14 being masturbated.
15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Move on to your
16 next question.
17 A. Yes.
18 BY MR. EDWARDS:
19 Q. When I am asking for nonprivileged
20 information or evidence that would give you the
21 ability to tell me whether is lying
22 when she says she had sex with Jeffrey Epstein while
23 underage, would you consider a joint letter crafted
24 between Jeffrey Epstein's lawyers and the United
25 States Attorney's Office to form the basis of that
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1 answer? Let me rephrase the question.
2 When I'm asking for nonprivileged
3 information that you may have to demonstrate the
4 truth or falsity of ' statement that
5 she was made to have sex with Jeffrey Epstein while
6 underage, would you consider the joint letter to the
7 special master evidence from which you could draw an
8 answer?
9 MR. SCOTT: Objection.
10 A. I would have to know more about it than
11 that. I would have to know the nature of the
12 letter, the reason it was sent.
13 BY MR. EDWARDS:
14 Q. Would you like to review the letter? Is
15 that going to help you?
16 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Ask him if he's
17 seen the letter first.
18 BY MR. EDWARDS:
19 Q. You were part of the team that was mainly
20 negotiating with U.S. Attorney's Office, correct?
21 A. I was only negotiating the criminal part
22 of the case.
23 Q. Okay. I'm going to show you the letter,
24 and if you had nothing to do with it, tell me that.
25 If you've never seen it before, then tell me that.
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1 I guess my first question is, have you
2 seen it?
3 MR. INDYKE: I would object to that.
4 MR. SCOTT: I would like to make a request
5 for this depo and future depositions, if they
6 are going to show exhibits to a witness, I
7 think we should be -- have a copy of them.
8 We provided copies to you of all exhibits
9 we used during the deposition of your client.
10 And I think if you're going to pull out
11 exhibits and have one, you should have at least
12 copies for counsel, and I would agree to do the
13 same thing, rather than having to run and make
14 a copy and all the rest of it.
15 MR. EDWARDS: I wasn't ready for him to be
16 unfamiliar with his and his legal team's
17 correspondence.
18 MR. SCOTT: I understand, but you haven't
19 had any all day. So all I'm asking you,
20 Mr. Edwards, is that we have copies of exhibits
21 that you intend to confront the witness with.
22 That's -- as you pointed out, you've got all
23 the questions laid out, so you know where we're
24 headed. There's a note on here. Do you want
25 that on there?
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1 MR. EDWARDS: No.
2 MR. SCOTT: It's one of your cheat sheet
3 notes. I don't know if you really want that on
4 there.
5 MR. EDWARDS: It just says "Isn't this
6 nonprivileged?"
7 MR. SCOTT: Okay. It's still an exhibit
8 going into evidence, right? Without your
9 notes?
10 MR. SIMPSON: Can we get it marked?
11 THE WITNESS: This is a draft, not a
12 letter.
13 MR. EDWARDS: I said it's a proposed
14 letter. I read the title exactly.
15 (Thereupon, marked as Plaintiff Exhibit
16 19.)
17 A. This is not -- it's not familiar to me
18 except that what I said previously that as part of
19 the resolution of this case, Mr. Epstein agreed he
20 would not contest jurisdiction for the victims who
21 chose to sue him, et cetera, is consistent with my
22 memory, but I have no recollection of actually
23 seeing this draft, this proposed draft.
24 MR. SCOTT: That's number?
25 COURT REPORTER: Nineteen.
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1 BY MR. EDWARDS:
2 Q. Wouldn't you agree wasn't
one of the listed victims to the
4 nonprosecution agreement?
5 A. If so, I was not aware of.
6 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
7 instruction.
8 BY MR. EDWARDS:
9 Q. As you sit here today, after having made
10 many statements about being a
11 serial liar --
12 A. She is.
13 Q. -- you have no idea whether she was a
14 listed victim to the nonprosecution agreement?
15 MR. SCOTT: Objection, asked and answered.
16 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same
17 instruction.
18 A. Right now, I have no recollection of
19 whether she was listed or not.
20 BY MR. EDWARDS:
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. I know that the FBI tried to speak to her
23 and she wouldn't speak to them is my recollection.
24 MR. SCAROLA: That's not responsive.
25 MR. EDWARDS: Not responsive.
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1 MR. SCAROLA: Move to strike.
2 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That, I will
3 strike. Move forward.
4 BY MR. EDWARDS:
5 Q. Was lying when she says that
6 Jeffrey Epstein also had sex with a girl named
8
9 MR. INDYKE: Same objections, same
10 instruction.
11 MR. SCOTT: Can you answer that?
12 A. I've never heard that name. It's not
13 familiar to me at all.
14 BY MR. EDWARDS:
15 Q. Was lying when she says
16 she traveled to Jeffrey Epstein's island when
17 underage?
18