EFTA00113909.pdf

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 JUNE 16, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00113909 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 NONE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00113910 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 1 MR. : The recorder is on. My 2 name is . I am a Senior 3 Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 4 Justice Office of the Inspector General New 5 York Field Office. This interview is with 6 former Federal Bureau of Prisons correctional 7 officer . It is being conducted as 8 part of an official U.S. Department of Justice 9 Office of the Inspector General investigation. 10 Today's date is June 16, 2021 and the time is 11 4:38 p.m. This interview is being conducted by 12 telephone. Mr. is calling from telephone 13 number Also present is DOJ OIG 14 Special Agent . This interview is 15 being recorded by me, Senior Special Agent 16 Can everyone please 17 identify themselves for the record and spell 18 their last name. To start, I am DOJ OIG Senior 19 Special Agent 20 , can you go next? 21 MR. : I am DOJ OIG Special Agent 22 23 MR. : And Mr. 24 MR. -: . Last 25 four is EFTA00113911 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Perfect. 2 MR. : Is that good? 3 MR. : Thank you, sir. This DOJ 4 investigation concerns the overall review of 5 this investigation has to do with job 6 performance failure and security failure. 7 That's what we're looking into as the DOJ OIG. 8 And this is - as I mentioned - an official DOJ 9 ingestion. You are being asked to provide 10 answers to our questions voluntarily. Will you 11 agree to a voluntary interview with us? 12 MR. : Yes. 13 MR. : Thank you, sir. We place 14 people under oath. It's going to eb a little 15 bit different. But do you swear to tell the 16 truth and nothing but the truth during our 17 interview? 18 MR. : Yes. 19 MR. : Thank you, sir. And if 20 you don't understand any of my questions, 21 please feel free to ask me to rephrase and I': 22 do my best to make it clear. As I mentioned, 23 I'm just going to go through a couple of 24 different interview questions in the beginning 25 just to kind of get your background. So you EFTA00113912 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 1 said you're down at the Federal law enforcement 2 training center right now, sir? 3 MR. : Yes, sir. 4 MR. : And do you have a current 5 home address? 6 MR. : Yes. It's in Florida. 7 MR. : And what's that now? 8 MR. : Uh 9 , Homestead, Florida 33035. 10 MR. : Thank you, sir. And 11 what's your date of birth? 12 MR. 13 MR. : And you said your last 14 four of your social security number were -? 15 MR. 16 MR. : Awesome. What's your 17 highest level of education? 18 MR. : Some college. 19 MR. : Where did you go to 20 college? 21 MR. : In Guam. 22 MR. : Guam how cool. When did 23 you do that? 24 MR. : I'm sorry? 25 MR. : When did you attend EFTA00113913 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 college in Guam? 2 MR. : Ooh. That was in 2007 I 3 believe. 4 MR. : Did you receive like an 5 associate degree or anything? 6 MR. : No just a couple credits here 7 and there. 8 MR. : Okay. And how long did 9 you work for the Bureau of Prisons? 10 MR. : From 2004 to 2006. Then I 11 left the Bureau and I came back in 2012 until I 12 left recently and was in 2020. 13 MR. : 2020? Okay so it was 14 over a year ago that you left. Or do you 15 remember the date? 16 MR. Uh, I believe my last day was 17 On the books with - because I was on leave 18 - so on the books, technically with BOP my last 19 day was October 11 of 2020. 20 MR. : Okay. And who do you 21 currently work for? 22 MR. : Customs and border protection. 23 MR. : And when did you start 24 working for them? 25 MR. : October 13 of 2020. EFTA00113914 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 7 1 MR. : And that's the purpose of 2 your training down at the Federal Law 3 Enforcement Training Center is to get 4 officially trained by them? 5 MR. : Yes, sir. 6 MR. : Alright. Thank you, sir. 7 When you were last with the Bureau of Prisons, 8 what was your title and rank? 9 MR. : I was the lieutenant GS11 10 lieutenant. 11 MR. : Perfect. Okay. I'm just 12 going to ask you As mentioned, I'm going to 13 go over an interview port that was created. 14 Was it true that you were interviewed by both 15 the FBI and the OIG back in 2019 regarding the 16 Epstein matter? 17 MR. : I believe so yes. I know OIG 18 was there. I believe one of them was an agent 19 with the FBI and they had I think an AUSA there 20 as well. 21 MR. : Okay. Great. I'm going 22 to read you that report. And if you can just 23 stop me if anything is inaccurate and as 24 mentioned, I'm going to ask for you to fill in 25 a couple of the blanks. EFTA00113915 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : It says: began 3 working for the BOP in 2004 at Fort Dix, New 4 Jersey. eventually ended his employment 5 with the BOP and then later returned to the BOP 6 as a lieutenant. has - so when did you 7 become a lieutenant? 8 MR. : Um, in 2016. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : I had a couple different 11 positions before I became a lieutenant. So. 12 MR. : Okay. has since 13 been assigned to various other BOP facilities 14 including Florence and Englewood. began 15 working at the Manhattan Correction Center, 16 that's not correct though. It's the 17 Metropolitan Correctional Center. Correct: 18 MR. : Yes, sir. 19 MR. : Located at 20 New York, New York approximately one year ago. 21 Do you recall from when to when did you work at 22 the MCC? 23 MR. : Yes. It was I believe I got 24 there in like April 2018 around that. Don't 25 quote me on that. I'm not (Indiscernible EFTA00113916 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 *00:05:37) around that time. It was right 2 before summer I believe. 3 MR. : And that is - did you 4 work there until you departed the BOP in 2020? 5 MR. : Yes, sir. 6 MR. : Okay. is currently 7 employed as a GS11. works in the special 8 housing unit and the operations unit. is 9 sometimes assigned to the SR2. What is the 10 SR2? 11 MR. : It's a relief post. I wasn't 12 At the time of all this, Epstein, I was not 13 the special housing unit lieutenant. So I want 14 to make sure I was clear on that. 15 MR. : But you were a special 16 housing unit lieutenant in the past? 17 MR. : Yes, sir. 18 MR. : Okay. Great. You'll be 19 perfect to answer some of these questions then. 20 But the SR2. I'm sorry. What is that? 21 MR. : It's like a relief post. Sc 22 you kind of work some day-watch shifts, some 23 evening watch shifts, and morning watch shifts. 24 So it's like a variable change post. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00113917 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : They're a (Indiscernible 2 *00:06:26) supervisor. 3 MR. : And were working in both 4 activities and operations there. 5 MR. : Yes, dir. 6 MR. : Primary responsibilities 7 while working in operations include logging the 8 movements of the building and managing overtime 9 issues. also does rounds in the SHU and 10 goes down range to address any issues that 11 inmates have. So when you say you do rounds in 12 the SHU, would you actually conduct rounds with 13 the inmates? Or are you saying you would visit 14 the SHU and do a round with your staff members? 15 MR. : I'm sorry. Say - repeat the 16 question one more time? I'm sorry. 17 MR. : So when this say that 18 also does rounds in the SHU, does that 19 mean when you would visit the SHU would you 20 actually do rounds with the other correctional 21 officers that were in the SHU? So you would do 22 rounds with the inmates? 23 MR. : Yes, sir. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Rounds with staff, make sure EFTA00113918 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 there's any issues. Do rounds with the inmates 2 if they have any issues. And then I depart. 3 MR. : Great. 4 MR. : And then I go to the other 5 units as well and do the same thing with 6 officers in the housing units. 7 MR. : Perfect. It says: 8 stated that the assigned operations lieutenant 9 will visit the SHU approximately once a day and 10 sign the signature sheet. The lieutenant 11 brings the signature sheet to the captain to 12 sign and file the sheet into the logbook. So 13 when you would visit the SHU, as an operations 14 lieutenant, would you conduct rounds with the 15 inmates at that time? 16 MR. : It also depends on the 17 workload. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : For instance, let's say 20 there's a use of force or some other disruptive 21 inmate you're dealing with. You know as 22 operations lieutenant, you've got to address, 23 and that's why you have the activities 24 lieutenant. And if you can't make it there in 25 time, or if he can't address that, you'll kind EFTA00113919 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 of cover up and go through the rounds for the 2 operations lieutenant. 3 MR. : When the Epstein matter 4 occurred on August 10, 2019, prior to that 5 time, was there ever a requirement that 6 lieutenants had to conduct one round in the SHU 7 with the inmates per shift? 8 MR. : Yeah, that was policy. That 9 wasn't necessarily operations or activities. A 10 lieutenant had - was obligated to go there and 11 make rounds. Of course, like I said, working 12 in various institutions, MCC New York is a very 13 unique beast because it's constant movement 14 going on. Constant issues. But like I said, 15 depending on the workload or situation, there's 16 not an issue they're dealing with, yes. You 17 have to go there at least once a shift. 18 MR. : Now just so I want to be 19 clear on this. Is it just go there to check in 20 or is it go there to actually -? 21 MR. : No. Not just to go in there, 22 sign the books, and go. Of course just make 23 sure the staff's okay. Do your rounds down 24 range. Make sure there's any issues - inmate 25 issues - you log them down. See if you can try EFTA00113920 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 to answer them. And go through the other 2 housing units and do the same thing. 3 MR. : Okay. So it was - but at 4 that time, in August 2019, prior to Epstein 5 being found dead, was there a requirement that 6 every shift that either the operations or the 7 activities lieutenant conduct round -- 8 MR. : Yes. 9 MR. : -- in the SHU with the 10 inmates? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : Okay. Good to know. 13 Alright. is not involved with the count 14 in the SHU during the week unless there is an 15 unscheduled emergency count. ' typical 16 involvement with the count is limited to making 17 sure rounds have been completed. The only 18 shift scheduled in the SHU for a lieutenant is 19 the 6:00 a.m. until 2:00 p.m. shift. There is 20 no nighttime SHU lieutenant scheduled at MCC. 21 has worked at other BOP facilities where 22 a nighttime lieutenant is scheduled. All BOP 23 employees are required to participate in an 24 annual refresher training. The last training 25 was held at in New York, New EFTA00113921 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 1 York. There is also quarterly training for new 2 correctional officers assigned to the SHU and 3 others who are mandated to attend. The 4 training discusses the signs of suicide and 5 what an employee should do if an inmate 6 attempts or successfully commits suicide. The 7 details of these trainings are found in post 8 orders which are displayed at the MCC. Now for 9 people that would do overtime shifts not 10 normally be assigned to the SHU, would they 11 have received guidance or training on how 12 they're supposed to operate when they're in the 13 SHU? 14 MR. : Usually - well you're saying 15 if the training it's worked as a special 16 housing officer. Correct? 17 MR. : Correct. So I know like, 18 for instance, in a special housing officer, 19 they do quarterly SHU training. Right? 20 MR. : Yes, sir. So whoever - 21 whoever - okay so let's say you've got your 22 regular SHU officers there. So before the SHU, 23 they take over that SHU, before the quarter 24 begins, they have quarterly SHU training with 25 that staff. That's where a lot of the rules EFTA00113922 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that are implemented in special housing 2 reviewed, and pretty much all your policy in 3 special housing is reviewed before that - you 4 take over that shift for that quarter. Now for 5 other officers that just do their overtime, and 6 stuff like that, it's the annual refresher 7 training that you get once a year. 8 MR. : Okay. So at that once a 9 year training though, do you get - was that 10 sufficient in order to know the rules and 11 policies and regulations for when they did work 12 in the SHU? 13 MR. : Uh, technically yes. Yes. 14 They're - the - it covers everything - special 15 housing, the rules, and regulations and how 16 movement is in special housing. My opinion, 17 coming from different institutions, is that 18 it's always a lot of stuff going on in special 19 housing because you have the (Indiscernible 20 *00:12:00) or the ADX. I believe you should 21 get some more training. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : That's just my opinion. 24 MR. : Fair enough. Alright. 25 So had not heard about Epstein until he EFTA00113923 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 1 arrived at the MCC as an inmate. was not 2 working at the time of Epstein's attempted 3 suicide and was told about the incident 4 afterwards. Standard practice at MCC is that 5 if an inmate is placed on suicide watch, a 6 cellmate will be placed with that inmate. The 7 psychology unit gives correctional officers a 8 hotlist which lists the names of any inmates 9 who are on suicide watch and require a 10 cellmate. So if some of the -. If the 11 officers that are working in the SHU knew that 12 Epstein had tried to commit suicide previously, 13 should have they known that he needed a 14 cellmate at all times? 15 MR. : Yes, sir. 16 MR. : Alright. And is that 17 regardless if that was their quarterly bidded 18 post versus like someone -. 19 MR. : Yeah because in special 20 housing, you have to house the (Indiscernible 21 *00:12:59) the officers' stations or right 22 behind it. Or the one at MCC New York and any 23 other institution, it's right there at the 24 officer's stations. So you have the list, 25 pictures, and that's the hotlist. So anybody EFTA00113924 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 1 that's at suicide risk has to have an inmate. 2 And yes. They should have. 3 MR. : Okay. It says: Epstein 4 was placed on suicide watch, was brought 5 upstairs to the SHU, and discussions about who 6 Epstein's cellmate would be. was not 7 present at any of those meetings. Once Reyes 8 was selected to be Epstein's cellmate, 9 spoke with Epstein and Reyes about it. And 10 neither inmate had an issue with it. 11 physically placed Reyes into Epstein's cell. 12 Oh, so you were the lieutenant at the time? 13 MR. : Yes. I was the operations 14 when they cleared that specific inmate to be 15 with Epstein. And I put him up there. Put him 16 in the first cell. And when I left, he was 17 still - that was his cellmate. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : It says: Then there is an 20 agent note and says at this point in the 21 interview, was shown a printed email from 22 AUSA stated he recalled 23 receiving an email which was prior to assigning 24 Reyes to be Epstein's cellmate. Now I'm 25 assuming that email was the one from July 30th EFTA00113925 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 from psychology saying that Epstein was 2 required to have a cellmate. Do you recall? 3 MR. : Yeah. Briefly. Yes, sir. I 4 know we had a lot of emails about Epstein. And 5 then that one I know he was required to have 6 that. And then they specified which inmate was 7 going to be his. 8 MR. : Okay. It says: On 9 8/9/19, so on August 9, 2019, was 10 assigned as the operations lieutenant on the 11 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. shift, which is actually 12 worked 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. Correctional 13 officers during the morning watch shift knew 14 that Epstein and Reyes were to be kept in the 15 same cell. Reyes was removed from Epstein's 16 cell during the shift for a court appearance 17 and was released. A new cellmate was not 18 immediately placed into Epstein's cell. 19 was aware of Epstein being alone and was 20 waiting to see what inmate would be assigned as 21 Epstein new cellmate. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. -: believed that the 24 captain or psychology unit will make this 25 assignment. So did you have any conversations EFTA00113926 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 with anybody -? 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : No? 4 MR. : No. That was - would be -. 5 No, that's a little bit different of how it was 6 said. 7 MR. : So let me -. Here, I'll 8 read the next sentence and you can tell me if 9 this is correct. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : It says: did not 12 tell any members of the relieving shift or 13 captain Darden that Reyes has been released 14 from MCC or that Epstein was currently without 15 a cellmate. did not work on 8/10/2019 16 and heard about Epstein's death in the news. 17 MR. : No. So this is exactly how it 18 went down. So with everything else, 100,000 19 things that was going on in that building, 20 usually when people go to court, we don't know 21 if they come back or not. There's nothing 22 specified okay, this person comes back. 23 Sometimes they do go to court, they post bail, 24 whatever the case may be, they get transferred. 25 We don't know until later on that day or after EFTA00113927 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 the shift. But that's - when I heard that, 2 it's kind of weird how they stated that because 3 at no point do we kind of have an idea that, oh 4 right now this inmate is not coming back. 5 Because especially in the detention center, a 6 lot of these guys do come back. Some of these 7 guys come late. Some of these guys come like 8 7:00, 8:00 on the next shift. It all depends. 9 So that's why I don't know with that statement 10 - I don't agree with that tone. 11 MR. : So did you know that 12 Epstein's cellmate Reyes was not coming back? 13 MR. : No. I did not know. 14 MR. : Oh you did not know. 15 Alright. Because yeah, I mean. 16 MR. : Yeah. I did not. 17 MR. : So I know the institution 18 was called at 1:50 advising that he was not 19 coming back. 20 MR. : See I didn't know that, sir. 21 MR. : You did not. Alright. 22 So you're saying how they wrote this is 23 actually not correct. 24 MR. : Yeah. Not correct. I did not 25 know that. EFTA00113928 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 1 MR. : Okay. Who - should have 2 you known it if you were worked until 2:00 p.m. 3 and then they called at 1:50? Should someone 4 have advised you? 5 MR. : Either me or the oncoming 6 lieutenant. So because when we do the 7 lieutenant exchange, we go in (Indiscernible 8 *00:17:22) all the building, and like I said, 9 any other issues that we're dealing with. 10 Somebody doesn't want to return to their cell 11 or inmate fight or whatever the case may be. 12 There's a lot of stuff going on. That's why I 13 tried to tell the individuals during that first 14 interview. During the day, it's not like okay 15 yeah this person goes here. It's kumbaya all 16 day. It's fast moving all the time. So yes. 17 So some things do get slipped through the 18 cracks? Yes. Do all of them? No. But at the 19 time with that, I was not - to my knowledge at 20 that time - that I knew that he was coming 21 back. 22 MR. : Alright. And that's what 23 I was going to ask you. Are you positive that 24 you didn't - you were not informed that he had 25 left? EFTA00113929 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 1 MR. : Sir, to tell you the truth. 2 Like me right now even thinking back then. I 3 was not sure. I'm not sure. I was not aware 4 if he wasn't gone. I don't remember getting 5 any time of notification saying he was not 6 coming back. 7 MR. : So you don't recall is 8 what you're saying? 9 MR. : Yeah. I don't recall. I did 10 not get any type of correspondence saying that 11 that inmate was not coming back at 1:54 or 12 whatever the time that you stated. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : That -. 15 MR. : Yeah, I think it was at 16 1:50. So when they call over to say there's 17 somebody is not coming back. Who do they call? 18 MR. : They usually it's the 19 operations lieutenant or if they're might be 20 R&D. And R&D lets us know that this inmate's 21 not coming back. I never got any type of 22 notification from R&D or the captain himself. 23 Honestly, sir. And being with the inmate being 24 so high profile, usually a person like that 25 will come from our next-step-leadership which EFTA00113930 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 would be the captain. I never received any 2 correspondence from him. 3 MR. : No, and I'm not talking 4 about Epstein. I'm talking about Reyes. Was 5 Reyes also high profile? 6 MR. : No, I'm just saying then that 7 he was in the same vicinity. If they - because 8 they made a big issue to make sure that's his 9 cellmate. Because I remember a couple of times 10 with the correspondence I got from him that 11 this is the inmate that he needs to be with 12 him. And make it happen. Put him in a cell 13 with him and that. So I would assume being 14 that he is kind of tied to Epstein for housing 15 purposes, and they knew that he was not coming 16 back, I should at least have got some type of 17 notification from the captain which I didn't at 18 that time. That I do know. 19 MR. : Alright. So I thought 20 you were saying that if they knew that he 21 wasn't coming back, they would call the 22 operations lieutenant. Were you saying? 23 MR. : Well either R&D will know 24 Receiving District - because they deal a lot 25 with the court cases and they'll disseminate it EFTA00113931 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 from operations. Or if they check. Because 2 sometimes, honestly, sir, if they call the 3 operations lieutenant, sometimes we're not in 4 that office. Or we're moving around and about 5 whatever the case may be. It all depends on 6 the day. So majority of the time, it will come 7 from R&D or if somebody does notify us, like 8 you said, more than likely be the lieutenant's 9 office or R&D or - for that situation - I would 10 think the higher-ups would know and let us 11 know. 12 MR. : Alright. Because I'm 13 looking at the notes now from eh FBI. And it 14 says the same thing. New cellmate wasn't 15 placed. was waiting to see who new 16 cellmate would be. And it would be decided by 17 the captain or psychology who would make that 18 decision. So do you remember talking to them 19 about that? 20 MR. : Honestly sir, no. I don't -. 21 MR. : And it said that Epstein 22 couldn't have just been placed with anyone. 23 MR. : That is for sure. That he was 24 not going to be placed with just anyone. 25 MR. : That is true? Is that EFTA00113932 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 1 what you said? 2 MR. : Yeah. That - they didn't want 3 no - any other cellmate to be with him other 4 than Reyes. 5 MR. : Um, right. Okay. 6 Alright. I'll just keep going on. 7 explained that correctional officers travel 8 between the 9th floor and the 10th floor of the 9 MCC via staircase. Now are you talking about 10 the MCC in general or are you talking about in 11 the SHU? 12 MR. : I'm - you mean the staircase 13 in SHU? 14 MR. : I don't know. The way 15 that that sentence says is explained that 16 correctional officers travel between the 9th 17 floor and 10th floor -. 18 MR. : Oh, that's okay. So the 9th 19 floor is the special housing. Now the 20 staircase to go to the 10th floor which is the 21 high-profile inmates go. 22 MR. : Like 10 South. Right? 23 MR. : 10 South. Yeah. That's the 24 staircase that they're -. 25 MR. : Okay. So in the general EFTA00113933 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 26 1 SHU area is that was explaining how you get 2 from the SHU up to 10 South. 3 MR. : Exactly. 4 MR. : Okay. Correctional 5 officers can take an elevator from the 9th 6 floor to the 11th floor, but it does not stop 7 on the 10th floor. The 10th floor is not a 8 full floor and is similar to an attic. There 9 are bathrooms for use of correctional officers 10 on the 9th and 10th floor. Female correctional 11 officers mostly use the 10th floor bathroom 12 because it's more comfortable and private. 13 Correctional officers pick up the house phone 14 and have the control unit open the doors for 15 them to access the bathroom and to complete 16 their rounds. also explained that 17 overtime during the nighttime shift for 18 correctional officers in the SHU is not often 19 sought after. This is because it requires 20 officers to be mobile and to prepare the 21 paperwork for the morning shift. Alright. So 22 you already talked about how -. So during the 23 August 9th and 10th. Every operations 24 lieutenant or activities lieutenant should have 25 conducted a round within the SHU and like EFTA00113934 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 1 witnessed or participated in either a round or 2 a count? 3 MR. : Yes. Uh, yes. 4 MR. : Do you know if anybody 5 did during your shift? Either yourself or the 6 activities lieutenant. 7 MR. : My shift it would have either 8 been -. I don't remember going to the SHU. I 9 know I was dealing with a lot of stuff that 10 day. Um. More than likely, if I can't do it, 11 it was my activities lieutenant that um, that 12 would knock that out. 13 MR. : You would have asked your 14 activities lieutenant? Is that what you said? 15 MR. : Yes. 16 MR. : Alright. 17 MR. : Well if he knows I'm busy, or 18 I'm dealing with something during the day, 19 he'll go up there and do the rounds in SHU. 20 MR. : Alright. And it looks 21 like that would have been . Are you 22 familiar with 23 MR. : Yes. 24 MR. : Okay. Do you -. I mean 25 I know we're talking about a long time ago but EFTA00113935 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 1 being that this was such a big incident. Do 2 you know - do you recall if you asked him to do 3 it? 4 MR. : Sir, I would be lying if I 5 said I did remember. I don't. 6 MR. : No, no worries. So then 7 the person that relieved you was as the 8 operations lieutenant and then relieved 9 . So during their shift, one of them 10 should have also witnessed a round or a count 11 in the SHU? 12 MR. : Yes, sir. 13 MR. : Okay. And are you 14 positive that was policy at that time? 15 MR. : At that time, a lieutenant has 16 to at least go to SHU to make rounds ever 17 shift. 18 MR. : Right. And with the 19 inmates, not just to stop by. 20 MR. : Yes. Not just hey, how you 21 doing. It's actually go down range and do your 22 rounds in range. 23 MR. : Alright. And then after 24 that, the nighttime shift it would have been. 25 You know I guess for officers it would have EFTA00113936 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 been10:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. That was and it actually says the activities 3 lieutenant -. Oh no, activities lieutenant 4 came on at 6:00. It was just the operations 5 lieutenant. So would have she 6 been required to do the same during the same 7 with the SHU - in the SHU? 8 MR. : Yes, sir. Every lieutenant 9 should (Indiscernible *00:25:13). Everybody 10 got to show their face at least once a shift. 11 And now when I say show your face, you have to 12 with the officers and with the inmates go down 13 range. 14 MR. : Okay. So 15 even though it was from 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 16 a.m., should have also gone downrange -- 17 MR. : Yep. 18 MR. : -- and done a round with 19 the inmates? 20 MR. : Yes. Because that would have 21 covered that morning watch shift. 22 MR. : Alright. Great. And 23 being that you were the lieutenant, you know 24 the SHU lieutenant, you know that this is 25 policy. Correct? EFTA00113937 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yes, sir. 2 MR. : Alright. Great. And 3 it's not something that was implemented after 4 this fact? It was actually 5 MR. : No, it was That's in every 6 SHU around the Bureau. 7 MR. : Okay. Great. Now so if 8 you were not informed about Reyes being removed 9 from the institution. What should have 10 happened and who should have taken - or who 11 should have ensured that a new cellmate was 12 assigned to Epstein? 13 MR. : Okay. So. Again. Repeat the 14 question one more time. I just want to make 15 sure I grasp what you're asking. 16 MR. : So first of all I guess I 17 should ask do you recall on that day were you 18 gone by 2:00 p.m.? 19 MR. : Uh, if not 2:00 p.m., usually 20 we try to relieve each other 15 minutes early 21 whatever. Give a little exchange and we go. 22 Usually I'll probably be out right at 2:00 p.m. 23 MR. : MR. LARGENT: So by 2:00 24 p.m. you would have bene gone? 25 MR. : Yes, sir. EFTA00113938 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Alright. So if this 2 information comes in and again, you said 3 usually, typically, directly, they call and 4 they usually typically call the operations 5 lieutenant and provide this information that 6 this person is not coming back? 7 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:26:56) I'm 8 going to say 80% of the time, R&D would know. 9 Okay, this inmate, because they've got the 10 whole transfer of inmates, where they're going, 11 and what's going on. So if they knew that one 12 was on the court list or whatever was not 13 coming back, you know, they usually would know. 14 Or sometimes, you know, they'll notify us by 15 calling the lieutenant's office. That's what I 16 meant by that. 17 MR. : Okay. So typically, R&D 18 would call the ops lieutenant, the ops 19 lieutenant would contact the lieutenant's 20 office, and they would notify the SHU? Is that 21 how it would work? 22 MR. : Yeah. And then without fail, 23 the such-and-such inmate needs to have - he's 24 not coming -. Well especially with that one. 25 He needs a cellmate because his cellie is not EFTA00113939 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 1 coming back. And the whole issue of him 2 getting that special cellmate would definitely 3 be a - how do I put it. Somewhere not that in 4 suicide watch and we couldn't get involved. 5 MR. : I'm sorry, I couldn't 6 hear. What was the last thing you were saying? 7 MR. : So it's, you know, especially 8 with that, not any inmate could go with him. 9 They should have put him on suicide watch until 10 they confirmed which would be his next 11 cellmate. Because I know not everybody could 12 have gone with him. So that's why that 13 information should have disseminated a lot 14 quicker. Because you know, they couldn't find. 15 It was a specific inmate to get with him which 16 was Reyes. Now to get another one, they would 17 have another backup inmate to go with him if 18 that person didn't come back. So I would have 19 thought they should have put him at least in 20 suicide watch so they can kind of figure out 21 who they were going to stick with him being 22 that he couldn't be by himself. 23 MR. : Okay. Now do the ops 24 lieutenant and the activities lieutenant are 25 their shifts like the same? Would have EFTA00113940 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 1 also left at about 2:00 p.m.? 2 MR. : Uh, see that time, that's why 3 I'm kind of confused. At that time, you just 4 reminded me. Because I knew we went 5 Usually the - typically shift for operations is 6 eight hours. And I know at one time being with 7 the shortage and everything, they started 8 flipping it to 12-hour shifts. So I'm trying 9 to remember what time came in because if 10 he -. 11 MR. : Well underneath his -. 12 So it's difficult because you guys aren't all 13 coming in at the times that is listed on the 14 actual roster. Sounds like you're all two 15 hours beforehand. Like your shift says 8:00 to 16 1600. 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : But it sounds like you're 19 actually coming in at 6:00 a.m. and leaving at 20 2:00 p.m. Is that correct? 21 MR. : Yeah. That was the stuff they 22 were letting us do because of traffic 23 especially in detention centers. They let the 24 lieutenants come in and work the 6:00 to 2:00 25 instead of uh, 8:00 to 4:00 trying to EFTA00113941 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 1 disseminate from you know the traffic and the 2 commute and stuff like that. 3 MR. : No as the 4 activities lieutenant, it shows that he was in 5 there from 6:00 to 2:00. 6 MR. : But again, he would have been 7 leaving exactly with me. Because that's why in 8 9 MR. : Alright. 10 MR. : -- activities they work 6:00 11 to 2:00, 2:00 to 10:00. 12 MR. : Alright. And so it was 13 only the ops lieutenants that were the two 14 hours before the activities lieutenants were 15 actually whatever it says on the schedule? 16 MR. : Yes. That was their official 17 post - 6:00 to 2:00. 18 MR. : Alright. So this call 19 comes in at 1:50 according to the official 20 records. So it's right on the cusp of either 21 you guys leaving or the next crew coming in. 22 MR. : Yes, sir. 23 MR. : And then it just -. So 24 who was the guy who relieved you, he 25 said he never knew about it. No one ever EFTA00113942 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 informed him. 2 MR. Yeah. 3 MR. : And that's the weird part 4 is that your interview report says that you 5 did. My only question for you was going to be 6 like who informed you and did you really that 7 information to anyone else? But -. 8 MR. : No. I don't recall saying 9 that I knew. I knew he left. I didn't knew 10 that he was gone. You know because we