EFTA00181510.pdf
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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
JANE DOE,
Plaintiff,
vs. Case No. 08-80893-
CIV-MARRA/JOHNSON
JEFFREY EPSTEIN,
Defendant.
DEPOSITION OF
MARK EPSTEIN
September 21, 2009
11:30 a.m.
One Penn Plaza,
New York. New York
Jacklyn Lisi
Toll Free: 800.211.3376
Facsimile: 954.331.4418
Suite 1300
SlS East Las Olas Boulevard
ESQUIRE Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
wvinv.esquIresoludons.com
EFTA00181510
•
•
•
EFTA00181511
1
• UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
JANE DOE,
Plaintiff,
vs. Case No. 08-80893-
CIV-MARRA/JOHNSON
JEFFREY EPSTEIN,
Defendant.
DEPOSITION of MARK EPSTEIN, taken by
• Defendants, at the offices of Esquire Deposition Solutions,
One Penn Plaza, New York, New York 10119, on Monday,
September 21, 2009, commencing at 11:30 a.m., before Jacklyn
Lisi, a Shorthand Reporter and notary public, within and for
the State of New York.
• 0 Toll Free: 800.211.3376
Facsimile: 954.331.4418
Suite 1300
ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard
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EFTA00181512
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
2
1 APPEARANCES :
2 ROTHSTEIN ROSENFELDT ADLER, ESQS.
Attorneys for Plaintiffs, EW, LM and Jane Doe
3 Las Olas City Centre, Suite 1650
401 East Las Olas Boulevard
4 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301
5 BY: BRAD J. EDWARDS, ESQ.
6
7 LEOPOLD KUVIN, ET AL
Attorneys for Plaintiff, BB
8 2925 PGA Boulevard, Suite 200
Palm Beach Gardens, Florida 33410
9
BY: ADAM LANGINO, ESQ.
10 (via telephone)
11
COHEN & GRESSER, LLP
12 Attorneys for the Witness, Mark Epstein
100 Park Avenue
13 New York, New York 10017
14 BY: MARK S. COHEN, ESQ.
ALEXIS G. STONE, ESQ.
15
16
PODHURST ORSECK, et al
17 Attorneys for Plaintiffs, Jane Does 101 and 102
25 West Flagler Street, Suite 800
18 Miami, Florida 33130
19 BY: KATHERINE EZELL, ESQ.
(via telephone)
20
21
MERMELSTEIN & HOROWITZ, ESQS.
22 Attorneys for Plaintiffs, Jane Does 2 through 8
18205 Biscayne Boulevard, Suite 2218
23 Miami, Florida 33160
24 BY: ADAM H. HOROWITZ, ESQ.
(via telephone)
25
Toll Free: 800.211.3376
Facsimile: 954.331.4418
Suite 1300
ESQUIRE 515 East Las Olas Boulevard
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EFTA00181513
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
3
• 1
2
APPEARANCES (continued)
RICHARD H. WILLITS, ESQ.
3 Attorney for Plaintiff,
2290 10th Avenue North, Suite 404
4 Lake Worth, Florida 33461
(via telephone)
5
6 BURMAN, CRITTON, LUTTIER & COLEMAN, LLP
Attorneys for the Defendant, Jeffrey Epstein
7 515 North Flagler Drive, Suite 400
West Palm Beach, Florida 33401
8
BY: ROBERT CRITTON, ESQ.
9 (via telephone)
10
* * *
• 11
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EFTA00181514
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
4
1 STIPULATIONS
2
3 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED, by and between the attorneys
4 for the respective parties hereto, that all rights provided
5 by the C.P.L.R., and Part 221 of the Uniform Rules for the
6 Conduct of Depositions, including the right to object to any
7 question, except as to form, or to move to strike any
8 testimony at this examination is reserved; and in addition,
9 the failure to object to any question or to move to strike
10 any testimony at this examination shall not be a bar or
11 waiver to make such motion at, and is reserved to, the trial
12 of this action.
13 This deposition may be sworn to by the witness being
14 examined before a Notary Public other than the Notary Public
15 before whom this examination was begun, but the failure to
16 do so or to return the original of this deposition to
17 counsel, shall not be deemed a waiver of the rights provided
18 by Rule 3116 of the C.P.L.R. and shall be controlled
19 thereby.
20 The filing of the original of this deposition is
21 waived.
22
23
24
25
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EFTA00181515
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
5
• 1
2
M. Epstein
THE REPORTER: Please state your name
3 and address for the record?
4 THE WITNESS: (Witness refused to give
5 his address to the court reporter.)
6 MR. COHEN: On the record.
7 For the witness, Mark Epstein, Mark
8 Cohen and Alexis Stone of Cohen & Gresser, 100
9 Park Avenue, New York, New York.
10 MR. EDWARDS: Brad Edwards on behalf
11 of EW, LM and Jane Doe.
12 MR. CRITTON: Robert Critton on
13 behalf of Jeffrey Epstein.
• 14
MS. EZELL: Kathy Ezell on behalf of
15 Jane Does 101 and 102
16 MR. HOROWITZ: Adam Horowitz on
17 behalf of Plaintiffs, Jane Does 2 through 8.
18 MR. WILLITS: Richard Willits on
19 behalf of
20 MR. LANGINO: Adam Langino on behalf
21 of Plaintiff, BB.
22 MR. EDWARDS Okay. That's everybody.
23 MR. COHEN: Okay. Before I start,
24 this is Mark Cohen on behalf of Mark Epstein,
25 I just want to put on the record the details
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EFTA00181516
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
6
1 M. Epstein
2 of a conversation I've had with Mr. Edwards
3 and make sure that all counsel is agreeable to
4 this.
5 My client, Mark Epstein, is very
6 concerned about being videotaped and having
7 his image recorded.
8 He is concerned about possible future
9 uses of his image. And so Mr. Edwards and I
10 have agreed that this recording, the videotape
11 of my client, will be confidential and will
12 not be revealed in public unless and until
13 there is an order by a court in one of the
14 cases that are involved in these depositions
15 that orders that the video be made public.
16 We are prepared to proceed on that
17 basis.
18 As I understand, Mr. Edwards is
19 prepared to proceed, but obviously we need the
20 agreement of all counsel.
21 MR. WILLITS: Richard Willits agrees.
22 MR. CRITTON: Robert Critton agrees.
23 MS. EZELL: Kathy Ezell agrees.
24 MR. EDWARDS: Adam?
25 MR. HOROWITZ: Adam Horowitz, that's
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EFTA00181517
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
7
• 1
2 fine.
M. Epstein
3 MR. LANGINO: The same with Adam
4 Langino, that's fine.
5 MR. COHEN: All right. Thank you.
6 MR. EDWARDS And Sid Garcia is not in
7 and he is not supposed to be in; right?
8 MR. CRITTON: This is Bob Critton.
9 I assume -- I don't know whether he
10 was going to come or not, but I assume that
11 everyone will also abide and not give Mr.
12 Garcia a copy of the video until he also
13 affirms in writing to Mr. Cohen that he's
• 14
15
agreed to be bound by the same agreement.
MR. EDWARDS: Okay.
16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is tape
17 number one to the videotape deposition of Mark
18 Epstein in the matter of Jane Doe versus
19 Jeffrey Epstein being held before the United
20 States District Court in the Southern District
21 of Florida, case file number 08-80893.
22 This deposition is being held at
23 Esquire Deposition Solutions, One Penn Plaza,
24 New York, New York on September 21, 2009. The
25 time is 11:41 a.m.
Toll Free: 800.211.3376
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EFTA00181518
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
8
1 M. Epstein
2 My name is Peter Ledwith. I'm the
3 videographer. The court reporter is Jackie
4 Lisi.
5 Counsel, will you please introduce
6 yourselves and who you represent?
7 MR. EDWARDS: Brad Edwards. I
8 represent EW, LM and Jane Doe.
9 MR. COHEN: Mark Cohen and Ally
10 Stone. I represent the witness, Mark Epstein.
11 MR. CRITTON: Robert Critton on
12 behalf of the defendant, Jeff Epstein.
13 MR. WILLITS: Richard Willits on
14 behalf of
15 MR. LANGINO: Adam Langino on behalf
16 of Plaintiff BB.
17 MR. HOROWITZ: Adam Horowitz on
18 behalf of plaintiffs Jane Does numbers 2
19 through 8.
20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court
21 reporter please swear in the witness?
22 MARK EPSTEIN,
23 having been first duly affirmed, was examined
24 and testified as follows:
25 THE WITNESS: I am an atheist, but I
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EFTA00181519
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
9
Si M. Epstein
2 will affirm I'll tell the truth.
3 EXAMINATION BY
4 MR. EDWARDS:
5 Q. Can you tell us your name?
6 A. Mark Epstein.
7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Can you put the
8 microphone on your shirt, please?
9 THE WITNESS: Mark Epstein.
10 Q. Okay. And your date of birth,
11 please?
12 A. July 14, 1954.
13 Q. And what is your relationship with
• 14 the defendant in this case, Jeffrey Epstein?
15 A. He is my brother.
16 Q. Are you currently married?
17 A. No.
18 Q. What is your current address?
19 A. I'm not giving out my address. I'm
20 concerned about my personal safety because of
21 the nature of this case. You can use his
22 address. You can use my attorney's address.
23 Q. Please elaborate on that for me that
24 you are concerned for your safety because of
25 the nature of this case?
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EFTA00181520
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
10
1 M. Epstein
2 A. Because I've read -- well, I know
3 that Jeffrey hired a detective or someone from
4 the police when he went out on his days out.
5 So obviously there is probably a concern for
6 safety.
7 I don't want anything to do with this
8 case. I have nothing to do with this case.
9 don't want my identifying information on any
10 kind of public record.
11 MR. COHEN: If it will make it
12 easier, Mr. Edwards, this is Mark Cohen
13 speaking. Mr. Mark Epstein is authorizing my
14 firm to accept service if there is a future
15 subpoena or a need to contact him again.
16 THE WITNESS: Before we go on, I want
17 to make a statement.
18 I want to say on the record that
19 initially I was improperly served with a
20 subpoena from Florida, it was supposed to come
21 from New York.
22 It also did not include the required
23 documents giving me my rights and obligations
24 under the Florida laws. So it's a breach of
25 some kind of ethics.
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EFTA00181521
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
11
• 1
2
M. Epstein
So in my book, you are either
3 incompetent, devious or have no ethical
4 compass.
5 So you are not on my high list.
6 Continue with your questions. I just wanted a
7 record of that.
8 MR. CRITTON: Brad, can you move the
9 phone a little closer to Mr. Epstein? I heard
10 you and I heard Mr. Cohen fine, but I'm having
11 trouble with Mr. Epstein.
12 MR. EDWARDS: All right.
13 MR. CRITTON: Thank you.
• 14
15
MR. EDWARDS: I apologize for your
feelings about the subpoena.
16 THE WITNESS: Not accepted.
17 This is too serious of a matter.
18 BY MR. EDWARDS:
19 Q. You do realize that you are
20 subpoenaed to testify today in cases that
21 involve your brother having sex or engaging in
22 sex acts with minors; correct?
23 MR. CRITTON: Form?
24 MR. COHEN: That's --
25 A. I know there is a case against my
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EFTA00181522
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
12
1 M. Epstein
2 brother. I know that.
3 Q. And you are aware that there are
4 multiple attorneys on the phone that represent
5 girls who were under-age when Mr. Epstein had
6 sex with them?
7 A. I know there are multiple attorneys
8 on the phone.
9 Q. Okay. Have you read the newspaper
10 articles about your brother that detail your
11 brother having sex with under-age girls?
12 MR. CRITTON: Form.
13 A. I've read some of the papers.
14 Q. You agree that sex with minors is
15 wrong?
16 MR. CRITTON: Form.
17 MR. COHEN: Objection.
18 Q. You can answer.
19 A. I have no opinion on that.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. I'm not here to give opinions. I'm
22 here for facts. So ask me questions about
23 facts and I'll be glad to answer them.
24 Q. Well, do you agree with the laws that
25 protect under-age children from adult sexual
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EFTA00181523
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
13
• 1
2 predators?
M. Epstein
3 MR. COHEN: Objection.
4 MR. CRITTON: Form.
5 A. My information on the case is my
6 brother I know had to spend sometime in jail
7 for some prostitution charge.
8 So I assume the attorneys are
9 representing the prostitutes he was involved
10 with, so I don't know what the ages of them
11 are or were.
12 I'm not involved with the case. I
13 don't watch all the details about it. That's
• 14
15
all.
Q. Would it surprise you to learn that
16 there were more than 30 girls between the ages
17 of 12 and 15 that your brother engaged in sex
18 acts with?
19 MR. CRITTON: Form.
20 A. I don't get surprised by very many
21 things in this world.
22 Q. But you and your brother are a year
23 apart; right?
24 A. 18 months.
25 Q. And you grew up together?
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EFTA00181524
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
14
1 M. Epstein
2 A. Sure.
3 Q. You still talk to him?
4 A. Occasionally, rarely.
5 Q. So when I ask you, does it surprise
6 you, you are saying that it doesn't surprise
7 you that your older brother engaged in sex
8 with more than 30 girls between 12 and
9 15 years old?
10 MR. COHEN: Objection.
11 MR. CRITTON: Form.
12 A. I don't know how to answer that
13 question. I don't know if it's true, and I
14 don't know what the story is.
15 It's not -- ask me a question about
16 facts. I'm not going to give you opinions
17 here, that's not what I'm here for.
18 Q. Do you have children?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. How old?
21 A. Seven and five.
22 Q. Boys or girls?
23 A. What does my children have to do with
24 this? Leave my family out of this, please.
25 Q. I think it's a fair question.
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EFTA00181525
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
15
• 1
2 A.
M. Epstein
I think it's a fair answer.
3 Q. I need an answer.
4 A. You got one.
5 Q. Boys or girls?
6 A. Next question.
7 MR. EDWARDS: Counsel?
8 MR. COHEN: I would suggest you move
9 to an area that's likely to lead to you
10 gathering relevant evidence.
11 We can come back to this burning
12 question maybe later.
13 MR. CRITTON: Let me also add that I
• 14
15
can only object to form, but I also want to
put on the record, other than his name and he
16 is related to Mr. Epstein, there is not one
17 piece of evidence or --
18 THE COURT REPORTER: I can't hear
19 you.
20 MR. CRITTON: I'm sorry. I just want
21 to note for the record that other than his
22 name and his relationship to Mr. Epstein, to
23 Jeffrey Epstein, there has been nothing of
24 relevance or materiality that would lead to
25 admissible evidence at the time of trial.
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EFTA00181526
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
16
1 M. Epstein
2 This is being done to harass or
3 humiliate Mr. Mark Epstein and/or my client.
4 It certainly borders on that, but he is not an
5 expert, his opinions are irrelevant in this
6 case, and as is his own family situation
7 but --
8 MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Critton, as you
9 stated first, I think that your objection is
10 limited to the form. Thanks.
11 Can I mark this as an exhibit?
12 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1 was so marked
13 for identification.)
14 MR. COHEN: I will say that I join in
15 Mr. Critton's objection for the record.
16 BY MR. EDWARDS:
17 Q. How frequently do you talk with your
18 brother now?
19 A. Maybe once every couple of weeks or
20 so, but "now" being just the last month or
21 two.
22 Q. Okay. When you first learned of a
23 criminal investigation into your brother, did
24 you talk to him about the substance of those
25 allegations?
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EFTA00181527
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
17
•1 M. Epstein
2 A. No.
3 Q. Have you ever asked him or had a
4 conversation with him about the allegations
5 that he's had sex with numerous under-age
6 kids?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Is there a reason why you wouldn't
9 ask him questions about him engaging in sex
10 with 13, 14-year old kids?
11 A. We are not very close. We don't talk
12 very often.
13 MR. CRITTON: Form.
• 14
15
Q. But when you do talk to him, that
conversation doesn't come up?
16 A. No.
17 Q. He went to jail. Did he ever tell
18 you why he went to jail?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Are you familiar with the property at
21 301 East 66th Street?
22 A. Yes, I am.
23 Q. Who owns that property?
24 A. Dara Partners.
25 Q. And what is Jeffrey Epstein's
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EFTA00181528
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
18
1 M. Epstein
2 affiliation with that property?
3 A. He rents some apartments in there.
4 Q. How many apartments does Jeffrey
5 Epstein rent at 301 East 66th Street?
6 A. It's either 8 or 10, I am not sure.
7 Q. Who are the residents of the
8 apartments that Jeffrey Epstein rents at that
9 location?
10 A. I have no idea.
11 MR. CRITTON: Brad, what was the
12 answer to the last one?
13 MR. COHEN: He has no idea.
14 A. I know his pilots used to stay there,
15 but I don't think he is using pilots any more.
16 Q. Why does he rent so many places at
17 the same location?
18 A. I have no idea.
19 Q. Have you ever had any affiliation
20 with that location?
21 A. Sure.
22 Q. In what way?
23 A. I'm one of the partners of Dara
24 Partners.
25 Q. So does your brother rent from you?
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EFTA00181529
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
19
• 1
2 A.
M. Epstein
No, he rents from Dara Partners. My
3 partner handles that property, I don't know
4 any of the tenants in that building other than
5 one or two.
6 Q. What are the names of the one or two
7 that you do know?
8 A. It is my ex, so I'm not going to give
9 you her name.
10 Q. Is that somebody who lives in one of
11 the places rented by your brother Jeffrey
12 Epstein?
13 A. No.
• 14 Q. Do you know any of the tenants that
15 live in the places rented by your brother,
16 Jeffrey Epstein?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you know ?
19 A. I know the name. I don't know her.
20 Q. Do you know what her relationship is
21 to your brother?
22 A. I think she worked for him.
23 Q. In what capacity?
24 A. I have no idea.
25 Q. Do you know if she lives in 301 East
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EFTA00181530
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
20
1 M. Epstein
2 66th Street?
3 A. I don't know where she lives.
4 Q. Would you know her if you saw her?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You've never seen her before?
7 A. I might have seen her somewhere, I
8 don't know.
9 Q. Have you ever talked to her?
10 A. I don't recall talking to her.
11 Q. Do you know
12 A. I know of her.
13 Q. How do you know of her?
14 A. In the papers.
15 Q. What papers?
16 A. Newspapers. I read some articles.
17 Q. Newspapers about your brother?
18 A. Relating to his case, yes.
19 Q. Okay. And what is your understanding
20 of her relationship with your brother?
21 A. I don't have an understanding about
22 it.
23 MR. CRITTON: Form.
24 A. My brother and I do not have a close
25 relationship, so what he does is his business
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EFTA00181531
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
21
M. Epstein
2 and what I do is my business.
3 We don't communicate back and forth
4 about our personal lives very often. I talk
5 to him to find out if he is well. That's all
6 I need to know.
7 Q. Does he tell you that he is well
8 these days?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you know what his future plans are
11 in terms of where he intends to live once he
12 is off probation or house arrest?
13 A. I have no idea.
• 14
15
Q. Is that a topic that you would ever
talk to him about?
16 A. No.
17 Q. So what is it that you talk to him
18 about when you call?
19 A. See how he is doing, see if he is
20 okay.
21 Q. Does he call you as well?
22 A. Sometimes.
23 Q. What is his telephone number?
24 A. Where?
25 Q. What are the telephone numbers that
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EFTA00181532
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
22
1 M. Epstein
2 you reach him at?
3 A. A lot of times I call his office and
4 I have them tell him to call me.
5 Q. What is his office number?
6 A.
7 Q. Who do you speak to at his office?
8 A. Whoever answers the phone.
9 Q. Do you know any of the people in his
10 office that typically answer the phone?
11 A. Some.
12 Q. Who are you familiar with there?
13 A. Darren. An attorney, Darren.
14 Q. Darren Indyke?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So normally the way that you get in
17 touch with your brother is to call his office
18 and they forward you on to him?
19 A. No, I tell them to have him call me.
20 Well, sometimes, I mean I've called him
21 directly too, but most of the time he is not
22 there so it's easier just to leave a message
23 to have him call me.
24 Q. Well, these days now that he is on
25 house arrest, normally if you called him he'd
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EFTA00181533
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
23
M. Epstein
be there, right?
A. I don't know the term house arrest.
I don't know if he'd be there or not. And if
I called there and sometimes he doesn't answer
or the phone doesn't get answered, so I don't
know where he is.
Q. What's the number that you would call
to reach him?
10 A.
11 Q. Is it your understanding that is a
12 cell phone or is that the land line?
13 A. I thought it was a land line.
• 14 Q. And what is your telephone number?
15 A. I'm not giving you any identifying
16 information.
17 MR. EDWARDS: We can come back to
18 that?
19 MR. COHEN: Why don't we come back to
20 that.
21 MR. EDWARDS: Okay.
22 Q. Are you familiar with your brother's
23 businesses?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you know a person by the name of
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EFTA00181534
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
24
1 M. Epstein
2 Jean Luc Brunel?
3 A. No.
4 Q. How often are you at the property at
5 301 East 66th Street?
6 A. I pick up my children there
7 sometimes. Maybe -- well, actually, they are
8 in school now so I'm not there that often,
9 because I pick them up at school.
10 During the summers I would pick them
11 up there once a week.
12 Q. Is that where the subpoena was served
13 on you?
14 A. No, the subpoena was served on me in
15 the street of New York.
16 Q. Near that building?
17 A. No.
18 Q. No where near that building?
19 A. It was in The City of New York, it
20 depends on what you mean by "near."
21 Q. Have you been to your brother's house
22 in New York?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. How many occasions?
25 A. Under five.
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EFTA00181535
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
25
•1 M. Epstein
2 Q. Have you been to your brother's house
3 in Palm Beach?
4 A. When.
5 Q. Ever?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How many occasions?
8 A. Probably dozens.
9 Q. When is the last time you were there?
10 A. Probably about a decade ago. I was
11 outside once more recently than that.
12 During one of the hurricanes, he
13 asked me to take a look at the property, but I
• 14
15
did not go in.
Q. Why not?
16 A. There was no inside damage. I went
17 to see the property just to see if there was
18 damage to the property. I was in Florida at
19 the time.
20 Q. Why has it been more than 10 years
21 since you've been to that property?
22 A. My brother and I are not very close.
23 Q. What is the reason why you are not
24 very close?
25 A. We just went our own ways.
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EFTA00181536
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
26
1 M. Epstein
2 Q. Does it have to do with the fact that
3 he likes under-age girls and engages in that
4 type of illegal activity?
5 MR. COHEN: Objection.
6 MR. CRITTON: Form.
7 A. I'm not going to make that
8 assumption, but it has nothing do with
9 anything like that. We just went our own
10 ways. Different interests, different things.
11 Q. Knowing your brother, if
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
JANE DOE,
Plaintiff,
vs. Case No. 08-80893-
CIV-MARRA/JOHNSON
JEFFREY EPSTEIN,
Defendant.
DEPOSITION OF
MARK EPSTEIN
September 21, 2009
11:30 a.m.
One Penn Plaza,
New York. New York
Jacklyn Lisi
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SlS East Las Olas Boulevard
ESQUIRE Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
wvinv.esquIresoludons.com
EFTA00181510
•
•
•
EFTA00181511
1
• UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
JANE DOE,
Plaintiff,
vs. Case No. 08-80893-
CIV-MARRA/JOHNSON
JEFFREY EPSTEIN,
Defendant.
DEPOSITION of MARK EPSTEIN, taken by
• Defendants, at the offices of Esquire Deposition Solutions,
One Penn Plaza, New York, New York 10119, on Monday,
September 21, 2009, commencing at 11:30 a.m., before Jacklyn
Lisi, a Shorthand Reporter and notary public, within and for
the State of New York.
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EFTA00181512
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
2
1 APPEARANCES :
2 ROTHSTEIN ROSENFELDT ADLER, ESQS.
Attorneys for Plaintiffs, EW, LM and Jane Doe
3 Las Olas City Centre, Suite 1650
401 East Las Olas Boulevard
4 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301
5 BY: BRAD J. EDWARDS, ESQ.
6
7 LEOPOLD KUVIN, ET AL
Attorneys for Plaintiff, BB
8 2925 PGA Boulevard, Suite 200
Palm Beach Gardens, Florida 33410
9
BY: ADAM LANGINO, ESQ.
10 (via telephone)
11
COHEN & GRESSER, LLP
12 Attorneys for the Witness, Mark Epstein
100 Park Avenue
13 New York, New York 10017
14 BY: MARK S. COHEN, ESQ.
ALEXIS G. STONE, ESQ.
15
16
PODHURST ORSECK, et al
17 Attorneys for Plaintiffs, Jane Does 101 and 102
25 West Flagler Street, Suite 800
18 Miami, Florida 33130
19 BY: KATHERINE EZELL, ESQ.
(via telephone)
20
21
MERMELSTEIN & HOROWITZ, ESQS.
22 Attorneys for Plaintiffs, Jane Does 2 through 8
18205 Biscayne Boulevard, Suite 2218
23 Miami, Florida 33160
24 BY: ADAM H. HOROWITZ, ESQ.
(via telephone)
25
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EFTA00181513
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
3
• 1
2
APPEARANCES (continued)
RICHARD H. WILLITS, ESQ.
3 Attorney for Plaintiff,
2290 10th Avenue North, Suite 404
4 Lake Worth, Florida 33461
(via telephone)
5
6 BURMAN, CRITTON, LUTTIER & COLEMAN, LLP
Attorneys for the Defendant, Jeffrey Epstein
7 515 North Flagler Drive, Suite 400
West Palm Beach, Florida 33401
8
BY: ROBERT CRITTON, ESQ.
9 (via telephone)
10
* * *
• 11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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EFTA00181514
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
4
1 STIPULATIONS
2
3 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED, by and between the attorneys
4 for the respective parties hereto, that all rights provided
5 by the C.P.L.R., and Part 221 of the Uniform Rules for the
6 Conduct of Depositions, including the right to object to any
7 question, except as to form, or to move to strike any
8 testimony at this examination is reserved; and in addition,
9 the failure to object to any question or to move to strike
10 any testimony at this examination shall not be a bar or
11 waiver to make such motion at, and is reserved to, the trial
12 of this action.
13 This deposition may be sworn to by the witness being
14 examined before a Notary Public other than the Notary Public
15 before whom this examination was begun, but the failure to
16 do so or to return the original of this deposition to
17 counsel, shall not be deemed a waiver of the rights provided
18 by Rule 3116 of the C.P.L.R. and shall be controlled
19 thereby.
20 The filing of the original of this deposition is
21 waived.
22
23
24
25
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EFTA00181515
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
5
• 1
2
M. Epstein
THE REPORTER: Please state your name
3 and address for the record?
4 THE WITNESS: (Witness refused to give
5 his address to the court reporter.)
6 MR. COHEN: On the record.
7 For the witness, Mark Epstein, Mark
8 Cohen and Alexis Stone of Cohen & Gresser, 100
9 Park Avenue, New York, New York.
10 MR. EDWARDS: Brad Edwards on behalf
11 of EW, LM and Jane Doe.
12 MR. CRITTON: Robert Critton on
13 behalf of Jeffrey Epstein.
• 14
MS. EZELL: Kathy Ezell on behalf of
15 Jane Does 101 and 102
16 MR. HOROWITZ: Adam Horowitz on
17 behalf of Plaintiffs, Jane Does 2 through 8.
18 MR. WILLITS: Richard Willits on
19 behalf of
20 MR. LANGINO: Adam Langino on behalf
21 of Plaintiff, BB.
22 MR. EDWARDS Okay. That's everybody.
23 MR. COHEN: Okay. Before I start,
24 this is Mark Cohen on behalf of Mark Epstein,
25 I just want to put on the record the details
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EFTA00181516
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
6
1 M. Epstein
2 of a conversation I've had with Mr. Edwards
3 and make sure that all counsel is agreeable to
4 this.
5 My client, Mark Epstein, is very
6 concerned about being videotaped and having
7 his image recorded.
8 He is concerned about possible future
9 uses of his image. And so Mr. Edwards and I
10 have agreed that this recording, the videotape
11 of my client, will be confidential and will
12 not be revealed in public unless and until
13 there is an order by a court in one of the
14 cases that are involved in these depositions
15 that orders that the video be made public.
16 We are prepared to proceed on that
17 basis.
18 As I understand, Mr. Edwards is
19 prepared to proceed, but obviously we need the
20 agreement of all counsel.
21 MR. WILLITS: Richard Willits agrees.
22 MR. CRITTON: Robert Critton agrees.
23 MS. EZELL: Kathy Ezell agrees.
24 MR. EDWARDS: Adam?
25 MR. HOROWITZ: Adam Horowitz, that's
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EFTA00181517
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
7
• 1
2 fine.
M. Epstein
3 MR. LANGINO: The same with Adam
4 Langino, that's fine.
5 MR. COHEN: All right. Thank you.
6 MR. EDWARDS And Sid Garcia is not in
7 and he is not supposed to be in; right?
8 MR. CRITTON: This is Bob Critton.
9 I assume -- I don't know whether he
10 was going to come or not, but I assume that
11 everyone will also abide and not give Mr.
12 Garcia a copy of the video until he also
13 affirms in writing to Mr. Cohen that he's
• 14
15
agreed to be bound by the same agreement.
MR. EDWARDS: Okay.
16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is tape
17 number one to the videotape deposition of Mark
18 Epstein in the matter of Jane Doe versus
19 Jeffrey Epstein being held before the United
20 States District Court in the Southern District
21 of Florida, case file number 08-80893.
22 This deposition is being held at
23 Esquire Deposition Solutions, One Penn Plaza,
24 New York, New York on September 21, 2009. The
25 time is 11:41 a.m.
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EFTA00181518
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
8
1 M. Epstein
2 My name is Peter Ledwith. I'm the
3 videographer. The court reporter is Jackie
4 Lisi.
5 Counsel, will you please introduce
6 yourselves and who you represent?
7 MR. EDWARDS: Brad Edwards. I
8 represent EW, LM and Jane Doe.
9 MR. COHEN: Mark Cohen and Ally
10 Stone. I represent the witness, Mark Epstein.
11 MR. CRITTON: Robert Critton on
12 behalf of the defendant, Jeff Epstein.
13 MR. WILLITS: Richard Willits on
14 behalf of
15 MR. LANGINO: Adam Langino on behalf
16 of Plaintiff BB.
17 MR. HOROWITZ: Adam Horowitz on
18 behalf of plaintiffs Jane Does numbers 2
19 through 8.
20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court
21 reporter please swear in the witness?
22 MARK EPSTEIN,
23 having been first duly affirmed, was examined
24 and testified as follows:
25 THE WITNESS: I am an atheist, but I
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EFTA00181519
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
9
Si M. Epstein
2 will affirm I'll tell the truth.
3 EXAMINATION BY
4 MR. EDWARDS:
5 Q. Can you tell us your name?
6 A. Mark Epstein.
7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Can you put the
8 microphone on your shirt, please?
9 THE WITNESS: Mark Epstein.
10 Q. Okay. And your date of birth,
11 please?
12 A. July 14, 1954.
13 Q. And what is your relationship with
• 14 the defendant in this case, Jeffrey Epstein?
15 A. He is my brother.
16 Q. Are you currently married?
17 A. No.
18 Q. What is your current address?
19 A. I'm not giving out my address. I'm
20 concerned about my personal safety because of
21 the nature of this case. You can use his
22 address. You can use my attorney's address.
23 Q. Please elaborate on that for me that
24 you are concerned for your safety because of
25 the nature of this case?
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EFTA00181520
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
10
1 M. Epstein
2 A. Because I've read -- well, I know
3 that Jeffrey hired a detective or someone from
4 the police when he went out on his days out.
5 So obviously there is probably a concern for
6 safety.
7 I don't want anything to do with this
8 case. I have nothing to do with this case.
9 don't want my identifying information on any
10 kind of public record.
11 MR. COHEN: If it will make it
12 easier, Mr. Edwards, this is Mark Cohen
13 speaking. Mr. Mark Epstein is authorizing my
14 firm to accept service if there is a future
15 subpoena or a need to contact him again.
16 THE WITNESS: Before we go on, I want
17 to make a statement.
18 I want to say on the record that
19 initially I was improperly served with a
20 subpoena from Florida, it was supposed to come
21 from New York.
22 It also did not include the required
23 documents giving me my rights and obligations
24 under the Florida laws. So it's a breach of
25 some kind of ethics.
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EFTA00181521
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
11
• 1
2
M. Epstein
So in my book, you are either
3 incompetent, devious or have no ethical
4 compass.
5 So you are not on my high list.
6 Continue with your questions. I just wanted a
7 record of that.
8 MR. CRITTON: Brad, can you move the
9 phone a little closer to Mr. Epstein? I heard
10 you and I heard Mr. Cohen fine, but I'm having
11 trouble with Mr. Epstein.
12 MR. EDWARDS: All right.
13 MR. CRITTON: Thank you.
• 14
15
MR. EDWARDS: I apologize for your
feelings about the subpoena.
16 THE WITNESS: Not accepted.
17 This is too serious of a matter.
18 BY MR. EDWARDS:
19 Q. You do realize that you are
20 subpoenaed to testify today in cases that
21 involve your brother having sex or engaging in
22 sex acts with minors; correct?
23 MR. CRITTON: Form?
24 MR. COHEN: That's --
25 A. I know there is a case against my
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EFTA00181522
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
12
1 M. Epstein
2 brother. I know that.
3 Q. And you are aware that there are
4 multiple attorneys on the phone that represent
5 girls who were under-age when Mr. Epstein had
6 sex with them?
7 A. I know there are multiple attorneys
8 on the phone.
9 Q. Okay. Have you read the newspaper
10 articles about your brother that detail your
11 brother having sex with under-age girls?
12 MR. CRITTON: Form.
13 A. I've read some of the papers.
14 Q. You agree that sex with minors is
15 wrong?
16 MR. CRITTON: Form.
17 MR. COHEN: Objection.
18 Q. You can answer.
19 A. I have no opinion on that.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. I'm not here to give opinions. I'm
22 here for facts. So ask me questions about
23 facts and I'll be glad to answer them.
24 Q. Well, do you agree with the laws that
25 protect under-age children from adult sexual
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EFTA00181523
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
13
• 1
2 predators?
M. Epstein
3 MR. COHEN: Objection.
4 MR. CRITTON: Form.
5 A. My information on the case is my
6 brother I know had to spend sometime in jail
7 for some prostitution charge.
8 So I assume the attorneys are
9 representing the prostitutes he was involved
10 with, so I don't know what the ages of them
11 are or were.
12 I'm not involved with the case. I
13 don't watch all the details about it. That's
• 14
15
all.
Q. Would it surprise you to learn that
16 there were more than 30 girls between the ages
17 of 12 and 15 that your brother engaged in sex
18 acts with?
19 MR. CRITTON: Form.
20 A. I don't get surprised by very many
21 things in this world.
22 Q. But you and your brother are a year
23 apart; right?
24 A. 18 months.
25 Q. And you grew up together?
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EFTA00181524
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
14
1 M. Epstein
2 A. Sure.
3 Q. You still talk to him?
4 A. Occasionally, rarely.
5 Q. So when I ask you, does it surprise
6 you, you are saying that it doesn't surprise
7 you that your older brother engaged in sex
8 with more than 30 girls between 12 and
9 15 years old?
10 MR. COHEN: Objection.
11 MR. CRITTON: Form.
12 A. I don't know how to answer that
13 question. I don't know if it's true, and I
14 don't know what the story is.
15 It's not -- ask me a question about
16 facts. I'm not going to give you opinions
17 here, that's not what I'm here for.
18 Q. Do you have children?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. How old?
21 A. Seven and five.
22 Q. Boys or girls?
23 A. What does my children have to do with
24 this? Leave my family out of this, please.
25 Q. I think it's a fair question.
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EFTA00181525
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
15
• 1
2 A.
M. Epstein
I think it's a fair answer.
3 Q. I need an answer.
4 A. You got one.
5 Q. Boys or girls?
6 A. Next question.
7 MR. EDWARDS: Counsel?
8 MR. COHEN: I would suggest you move
9 to an area that's likely to lead to you
10 gathering relevant evidence.
11 We can come back to this burning
12 question maybe later.
13 MR. CRITTON: Let me also add that I
• 14
15
can only object to form, but I also want to
put on the record, other than his name and he
16 is related to Mr. Epstein, there is not one
17 piece of evidence or --
18 THE COURT REPORTER: I can't hear
19 you.
20 MR. CRITTON: I'm sorry. I just want
21 to note for the record that other than his
22 name and his relationship to Mr. Epstein, to
23 Jeffrey Epstein, there has been nothing of
24 relevance or materiality that would lead to
25 admissible evidence at the time of trial.
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EFTA00181526
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
16
1 M. Epstein
2 This is being done to harass or
3 humiliate Mr. Mark Epstein and/or my client.
4 It certainly borders on that, but he is not an
5 expert, his opinions are irrelevant in this
6 case, and as is his own family situation
7 but --
8 MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Critton, as you
9 stated first, I think that your objection is
10 limited to the form. Thanks.
11 Can I mark this as an exhibit?
12 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1 was so marked
13 for identification.)
14 MR. COHEN: I will say that I join in
15 Mr. Critton's objection for the record.
16 BY MR. EDWARDS:
17 Q. How frequently do you talk with your
18 brother now?
19 A. Maybe once every couple of weeks or
20 so, but "now" being just the last month or
21 two.
22 Q. Okay. When you first learned of a
23 criminal investigation into your brother, did
24 you talk to him about the substance of those
25 allegations?
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EFTA00181527
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
17
•1 M. Epstein
2 A. No.
3 Q. Have you ever asked him or had a
4 conversation with him about the allegations
5 that he's had sex with numerous under-age
6 kids?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Is there a reason why you wouldn't
9 ask him questions about him engaging in sex
10 with 13, 14-year old kids?
11 A. We are not very close. We don't talk
12 very often.
13 MR. CRITTON: Form.
• 14
15
Q. But when you do talk to him, that
conversation doesn't come up?
16 A. No.
17 Q. He went to jail. Did he ever tell
18 you why he went to jail?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Are you familiar with the property at
21 301 East 66th Street?
22 A. Yes, I am.
23 Q. Who owns that property?
24 A. Dara Partners.
25 Q. And what is Jeffrey Epstein's
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Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
18
1 M. Epstein
2 affiliation with that property?
3 A. He rents some apartments in there.
4 Q. How many apartments does Jeffrey
5 Epstein rent at 301 East 66th Street?
6 A. It's either 8 or 10, I am not sure.
7 Q. Who are the residents of the
8 apartments that Jeffrey Epstein rents at that
9 location?
10 A. I have no idea.
11 MR. CRITTON: Brad, what was the
12 answer to the last one?
13 MR. COHEN: He has no idea.
14 A. I know his pilots used to stay there,
15 but I don't think he is using pilots any more.
16 Q. Why does he rent so many places at
17 the same location?
18 A. I have no idea.
19 Q. Have you ever had any affiliation
20 with that location?
21 A. Sure.
22 Q. In what way?
23 A. I'm one of the partners of Dara
24 Partners.
25 Q. So does your brother rent from you?
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EFTA00181529
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
19
• 1
2 A.
M. Epstein
No, he rents from Dara Partners. My
3 partner handles that property, I don't know
4 any of the tenants in that building other than
5 one or two.
6 Q. What are the names of the one or two
7 that you do know?
8 A. It is my ex, so I'm not going to give
9 you her name.
10 Q. Is that somebody who lives in one of
11 the places rented by your brother Jeffrey
12 Epstein?
13 A. No.
• 14 Q. Do you know any of the tenants that
15 live in the places rented by your brother,
16 Jeffrey Epstein?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you know ?
19 A. I know the name. I don't know her.
20 Q. Do you know what her relationship is
21 to your brother?
22 A. I think she worked for him.
23 Q. In what capacity?
24 A. I have no idea.
25 Q. Do you know if she lives in 301 East
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Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
20
1 M. Epstein
2 66th Street?
3 A. I don't know where she lives.
4 Q. Would you know her if you saw her?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You've never seen her before?
7 A. I might have seen her somewhere, I
8 don't know.
9 Q. Have you ever talked to her?
10 A. I don't recall talking to her.
11 Q. Do you know
12 A. I know of her.
13 Q. How do you know of her?
14 A. In the papers.
15 Q. What papers?
16 A. Newspapers. I read some articles.
17 Q. Newspapers about your brother?
18 A. Relating to his case, yes.
19 Q. Okay. And what is your understanding
20 of her relationship with your brother?
21 A. I don't have an understanding about
22 it.
23 MR. CRITTON: Form.
24 A. My brother and I do not have a close
25 relationship, so what he does is his business
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EFTA00181531
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
21
M. Epstein
2 and what I do is my business.
3 We don't communicate back and forth
4 about our personal lives very often. I talk
5 to him to find out if he is well. That's all
6 I need to know.
7 Q. Does he tell you that he is well
8 these days?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you know what his future plans are
11 in terms of where he intends to live once he
12 is off probation or house arrest?
13 A. I have no idea.
• 14
15
Q. Is that a topic that you would ever
talk to him about?
16 A. No.
17 Q. So what is it that you talk to him
18 about when you call?
19 A. See how he is doing, see if he is
20 okay.
21 Q. Does he call you as well?
22 A. Sometimes.
23 Q. What is his telephone number?
24 A. Where?
25 Q. What are the telephone numbers that
• 0 Toll Free: 800.211.3376
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EFTA00181532
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
22
1 M. Epstein
2 you reach him at?
3 A. A lot of times I call his office and
4 I have them tell him to call me.
5 Q. What is his office number?
6 A.
7 Q. Who do you speak to at his office?
8 A. Whoever answers the phone.
9 Q. Do you know any of the people in his
10 office that typically answer the phone?
11 A. Some.
12 Q. Who are you familiar with there?
13 A. Darren. An attorney, Darren.
14 Q. Darren Indyke?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So normally the way that you get in
17 touch with your brother is to call his office
18 and they forward you on to him?
19 A. No, I tell them to have him call me.
20 Well, sometimes, I mean I've called him
21 directly too, but most of the time he is not
22 there so it's easier just to leave a message
23 to have him call me.
24 Q. Well, these days now that he is on
25 house arrest, normally if you called him he'd
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EFTA00181533
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
23
M. Epstein
be there, right?
A. I don't know the term house arrest.
I don't know if he'd be there or not. And if
I called there and sometimes he doesn't answer
or the phone doesn't get answered, so I don't
know where he is.
Q. What's the number that you would call
to reach him?
10 A.
11 Q. Is it your understanding that is a
12 cell phone or is that the land line?
13 A. I thought it was a land line.
• 14 Q. And what is your telephone number?
15 A. I'm not giving you any identifying
16 information.
17 MR. EDWARDS: We can come back to
18 that?
19 MR. COHEN: Why don't we come back to
20 that.
21 MR. EDWARDS: Okay.
22 Q. Are you familiar with your brother's
23 businesses?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you know a person by the name of
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EFTA00181534
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
24
1 M. Epstein
2 Jean Luc Brunel?
3 A. No.
4 Q. How often are you at the property at
5 301 East 66th Street?
6 A. I pick up my children there
7 sometimes. Maybe -- well, actually, they are
8 in school now so I'm not there that often,
9 because I pick them up at school.
10 During the summers I would pick them
11 up there once a week.
12 Q. Is that where the subpoena was served
13 on you?
14 A. No, the subpoena was served on me in
15 the street of New York.
16 Q. Near that building?
17 A. No.
18 Q. No where near that building?
19 A. It was in The City of New York, it
20 depends on what you mean by "near."
21 Q. Have you been to your brother's house
22 in New York?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. How many occasions?
25 A. Under five.
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EFTA00181535
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
25
•1 M. Epstein
2 Q. Have you been to your brother's house
3 in Palm Beach?
4 A. When.
5 Q. Ever?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How many occasions?
8 A. Probably dozens.
9 Q. When is the last time you were there?
10 A. Probably about a decade ago. I was
11 outside once more recently than that.
12 During one of the hurricanes, he
13 asked me to take a look at the property, but I
• 14
15
did not go in.
Q. Why not?
16 A. There was no inside damage. I went
17 to see the property just to see if there was
18 damage to the property. I was in Florida at
19 the time.
20 Q. Why has it been more than 10 years
21 since you've been to that property?
22 A. My brother and I are not very close.
23 Q. What is the reason why you are not
24 very close?
25 A. We just went our own ways.
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EFTA00181536
Mark Epstein September 21, 2009
26
1 M. Epstein
2 Q. Does it have to do with the fact that
3 he likes under-age girls and engages in that
4 type of illegal activity?
5 MR. COHEN: Objection.
6 MR. CRITTON: Form.
7 A. I'm not going to make that
8 assumption, but it has nothing do with
9 anything like that. We just went our own
10 ways. Different interests, different things.
11 Q. Knowing your brother, if