EFTA01137794.pdf

Dershowitz, Alan - Vol. 04 011216 January 12, 2016 Page 462 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SEVENTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN AND FOR BROWARD COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO.: CACE 15-000072 3 4 BRADLEY J. EDWARDS and PAUL G. CASSELL, 5 Plaintiffs, 6 vs. 7 ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ, 8 Defendant. 9 10 VIDEOTAPE CONTINUED DEPOSITION OF 11 ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ 12 13 VOLUME 4 Pages 462 through 647 14 15 Tuesday, January 12, 2016 1:05 p.m. - 4:45 p.m. 16 17 Tripp Scott 110 Southeast 6th Street 18 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 19 20 Stenographically Reported By: Kimberly Fontalvo, RPR, CLR 21 Realtime Systems Administrator 22 23 24 25 EFTA01137794 Page 463 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 SEARCY, DENNEY, SCAROLA 4 BARNHART & SHIPLEY, P.A. 2139 Palm Beach Lakes Boulevard 5 West Palm Beach, Florida 33402-3626 BY: JACK SCAROLA, ESQ. 6 7 8 On behalf of Defendant: 9 COLE, SCOTT & KISSANE, P.A. Dadeland Centre II - Suite 1400 10 9150 South Dadeland Boulevard Miami, Florida 33156 11 BY: THOMAS EMERSON SCOTT, JR., ESQ. 12 BY: STEVEN SAFRA, ESQ. (Via phone) 13 --and-- 14 SWEDER & ROSS, LLP 131 Oliver Street 15 Boston, MA 02110 BY: KENNETH A. SWEDER, ESQ. 16 17 --and-- 18 WILEY, REIN 17769 K Street NW 19 Washington, DC 20006 BY: RICHARD A. SIMPSON, ESQ. 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA01137795 Page 464 1 APPEARANCES (Continued): 2 3 On behalf of Jeffrey Epstein: 4 DARREN K. INDYKE, PLLC 575 Lexington Ave., 4th Fl. 5 New York, New York BY: DARREN K. INDYKE, ESQ. (Via phone) 6 7 On behalf of 8 BOIES, SCHILLER & FLEXNER, LLP 401 E. Las Olas Blvd., Ste. 1200 9 Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301 BY: SIGRID STONE MCCAWLEY, ESQ. 10 11 12 ALSO PRESENT: 13 Edward J. Pozzuoli, Special Master 14 Sean D. Reyes, Utah Attorney General Office 15 Travis Gallagher, Videographer 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA01137796 Page 465 INDEX 2 3 Examination Page 4 5 VOLUME 4 (Pages 462 - 647) 6 7 Certificate of Oath 645 Certificate of Reporter 646 8 Read and Sign Letter to Witness 647 Errata Sheet (forwarded upon execution) 648 9 10 PLAINTIFF EXHIBITS 11 12 No Page 13 19 Proposed Joint Letter to the Special 501 Master 14 20 Document reflecting entry for Bands, 548 15 Doug 16 21 Article from the Daily Mail.com titled 562 Prince Andrew's billionaire friend is 17 accused of preying on girl of 14 18 22 Letter dated July 6, 2007 from Gerald 612 B. Lefcourt to 19 and others 22 pages 20 23 Document titled NewsRoom/Alan 623 21 Dershowitz to talk in Alburquerque 22 24 Article from nydailynews.com titled 628 Alleged 'sex slave' 23 says she didn't have sex with former President Bill Clinton, but in 24 explosive court filing, details 11-person orgy with Prince Andrew and 25 others EFTA01137797 Page 466 1 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going back on the record. 2 The time is approximately 1:05 p.m. 3 MR. INDYKE: This is Darren Indyke. If it 4 would be okay with everyone, I would like to 5 clarify a couple of points for the record. 6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Go ahead. 7 MR. INDYKE: First, I apologize for the 8 spotty reception during the morning session. I 9 was having difficulty hearing you folks, and I 10 think you were having some difficulty hearing 11 me. I think I've corrected it, but if I could 12 ask if you could move the mic closer to him 13 somehow or if I let you know that I can't hear, 14 if somebody could just speak up. 15 MR. SCAROLA: Did we turn that speaker 16 volume up? 17 MR. SIMPSON: Let's turn up the volume. 18 MR. INDYKE: Secondly, as to the argument 19 that work product belongs to the attorney and 20 not the client, I want to make sure that it's 21 clear that we disagree with that vehemently. 22 We believe that it is a client's every bit 23 as much as an attorney's and an attorney has no 24 right to waive that privilege over the 25 objection of a client. If that were true, EFTA01137798 Page 467 1 there would be nothing improper with an 2 attorney publishing his entire case file over 3 the objection of his client with the exception 4 of communications back and forth between 5 attorney and client. Strategies, witnesses, 6 things like that could be disclosed over the 7 objection of a client, and that's just not the 8 case. 9 So for the record, Mr. Epstein reasserts 10 the work product privilege and would continue 11 do so. And I would instruct Mr. Dershowitz not 12 provide any response to any question that would 13 require Mr. Dershowitz to invade that 14 privilege. 15 Third, I guess as to the joint defense 16 agreement, it is our position that any party to 17 the joint defense agreement may assert it, and 18 it doesn't require disclosure of all parties to 19 the agreement in order for the assertion to be 20 valid. 21 I would note that disclosure of the 22 parties to a joint defense agreement are often, 23 by the terms of a joint defense agreement, 24 subject to confidentiality and, thus, protected 25 by the privilege. EFTA01137799 Page 468 1 And I would also point out that it's not 2 necessary for a person to be a party to a joint 3 defense agreement for the communications with 4 that person by a lawyer who is making those 5 communications on behalf of the client party to 6 the agreement to be subject to the joint 7 defense agreement. 8 And while we need to do some more 9 background research to get the full details of 10 the joint defense agreement, I would -- for 11 those reasons, to the extent that any 12 disclosure in response to any questions posed 13 to Mr. Dershowitz would require Mr. Dershowitz 14 to invade that joint defense agreement, we 15 would instruct -- we would object and instruct 16 that Mr. Dershowitz not respond. I think that 17 covers everything that I have. 18 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Thank you. 19 Let's proceed. 20 MR. SCAROLA: Before we proceed, I want to 21 note for the record that the various 22 transcripts of statements made by 23 Mr. Dershowitz that had been requested during 24 the earlier session of the deposition were 25 marked as Exhibit Number 1 to the prior EFTA01137800 Page 469 1 sessions of Mr. Dershowitz's deposition. 2 I believe that everything that was 3 referenced has been disclosed. To the extent 4 that opposing counsel identifies anything that 5 is not included in Composite Exhibit Number 1 6 previously marked, we would be happy to provide 7 a copy of that as soon as a copy -- 8 MR. INDYKE: Is that Mr. Scarola? 9 MR. SCAROLA: It is, yes. 10 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on. Speak 11 up a little bit, Jack. 12 MR. SCAROLA: Certainly. As soon as a 13 copy that does not include work product 14 notations is available, and the portions of 15 statements made by Mr. Dershowitz not included 16 in Exhibit Number 1 are identified to us, we 17 will provide those. 18 MR. SCOTT: I think what we most want, 19 Jack, are the -- I think we have one 20 transcript, but I think there's another 21 transcript of the bench and Bar that we need. 22 MR. SCAROLA: There are multiple 23 transcripts included in Exhibit Number 1. 24 MR. EDWARDS: If there are transcripts 25 that you need that are not included in Exhibit EFTA01137801 Page 470 1 Number 1, tell me. I'll get them to you, and 2 I'll get them to you tomorrow since we're here 3 again. 4 MR. SCAROLA: I just want the record to 5 reflect that I believe that everything that 6 we've made reference to is included in Exhibit 7 Number 1. If I'm incorrect in that regard, you 8 let us know what it is, we'll give it to you. 9 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Darren, anything 10 on your end? You okay? 11 MR. INDYKE: Yep. 12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I would welcome 13 the parties just to get together to make sure 14 they have a complete set of what they need, and 15 we'll go from there. 16 MR. EDWARDS: Absolutely. Just for the 17 record, my only real objection was not turning 18 over what I had marked and my work product. 19 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I understood. 20 MR. EDWARDS: I'll get everything to him 21 tomorrow. 22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I took it that 23 way. 24 BY MR. EDWARDS: 25 Q. Going back to testing the credibility of EFTA01137802 Page 471 1 and things that she has said, was 2 she lying when she said that she has flown on 3 Jeffrey Epstein's airplane? 4 MR. INDYKE: Objection. Work product and 5 common interest. 6 A. I think I can answer that question. Based 7 on material that was produced in discovery, which 8 would not be subject to privilege, there seems to be 9 evidence that she did fly on the airplane with 10 Jeffrey Epstein. 11 BY MR. EDWARDS: 12 Q. Was she lying when she says that she was 13 flown on Jeffrey Epstein's airplane across state 14 lines at a time when she was under the age of 18? 15 A. I have no idea. 16 MR. INDYKE: Objection. Same objection. 17 Work product and attorney-client and common 18 interest. 19 A. I have no idea. But, again -- I just have 20 no idea. 21 BY MR. EDWARDS: 22 Q. Is there any nonprivileged information 23 that you could review that would give you an idea to 24 answer that question or that would give you the 25 answer to that question? EFTA01137803 Page 472 1 A. I imagine there would be if there were 2 videotapes. I've always said from the beginning, I 3 hope there are videotapes of every moment in 4 ' life, because they would exculpate 5 me completely. So I hope there are videotapes. 6 Q. Aren't you aware that there were 7 videotapes that were taken within your client 8 Jeffrey Epstein's various homes? 9 MR. INDYKE: Objection. Work product, 10 attorney-client. Common interest. 11 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Carve out the 12 privileged issue and non-privileged, if he 13 gained information through a nonprivileged 14 source. 15 BY MR. EDWARDS: 16 Q. Well, the statement was -- which I was not 17 going there. The statement was, if there are 18 videos, I want them all out there? 19 A. Absolutely. 20 Q. So, isn't it true that you know that there 21 were indeed videos taken from within your client's 22 various homes? 23 MR. INDYKE: Same objection. 24 BY MR. EDWARDS: 25 Q. Privileged or nonprivileged. EFTA01137804 Page 473 1 MR. SCOTT: Asked and answered in the last 2 depo. 3 A. I hope there were videos. I hope there 4 are videos of every moment of life 5 from the time she allegedly met Jeffrey Epstein to 6 the time she left. I hope there were videos in 7 every bedroom. I hope there were videos in every 8 massage room. I hope there are videos all over. 9 And from day one, I categorically stated 10 that there could be no photograph, no video that 11 would demonstrate that what she said was true, 12 because I knew it was false. She knew it was false. 13 And you knew it was false. 14 BY MR. EDWARDS: 15 Q. In representing a client, don't you try to 16 determine or ascertain what evidence does exist that 17 may incriminate or exonerate any particular client? 18 A. Of course. 19 Q. Okay. In making that inquiry in this 20 case, haven't you learned that there are -- 21 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Which case? 22 BY MR. EDWARDS: 23 Q. In the case in which you represented 24 Jeffrey Epstein, haven't you learned that there were 25 video recordings taken from within Jeffrey Epstein's EFTA01137805 Page 474 1 various homes as well as his airplane? 2 MR. INDYKE: Objection, same objection. 3 Instruct him not to answer. 4 A. I hope there were. 5 BY MR. EDWARDS: 6 Q. Will you then assist us 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. -- in obtaining those videos from your 9 client? 10 A. I will assist you in getting any possible 11 videotapes of or any of the 12 locations where the false accusation against me was 13 made. I would be thrilled to have videos of every 14 moment of my life during that period of time, and 15 every moment of her life. Because they would prove 16 conclusively that which I know to be conclusively 17 false, namely that she made up the stories about me. 18 Q. Okay. Just so I understand your 19 agreement, is that -- 20 MR. INDYKE: Just so we're clear, 21 Mr. Epstein is not waiving any of his 22 objections as to any such information to the 23 extent that it exists. 24 BY MR. EDWARDS: 25 Q. Okay. Well, this video or photograph -- EFTA01137806 Page 475 1 if :here are videos or photographs of 2 that have been taken or recorded from 3 Jeffrey Epstein's home, is that -- is that evidence 4 that you will assist us in obtaining? 5 A. I will try my best to try to get every 6 possible -- 7 MR. INDYKE: Objection. 8 A. -- photograph -- I'm entitled to say what 9 I'll try to best to do. I will try my best to get 10 every possible video, photograph, and any other 11 piece of objective evidence because I know it will 12 all completely prove beyond any doubt that I wasn't 13 there. 14 BY MR. EDWARDS: 15 Q. And if that information has already 16 exchanged hands -- that evidence has already 17 exchanged hands from Jeffrey Epstein's hands to the 18 hands of his attorneys, as part of their work 19 product, would you agree to waive your work product 20 privilege to produce that evidence? 21 MR. SCOTT: Objection. 22 MR. INDYKE: Objection. 23 A. I don't have any such evidence. I wish I 24 did. 25 EFTA01137807 Page 476 1 BY MR. EDWARDS: 2 Q. With respect to the search warrant that 3 was executed on Jeffrey Epstein's house, isn't it 4 true that just before that search warrant was 5 executed, the -- Jeffrey Epstein's legal team 6 ordered that three computers be removed from Jeffrey 7 Epstein's home that contained pornographic images, 8 including those of 9 A. I made no such order. 10 MR. INDYKE: Same objection. And instruct 11 not to answer. 12 BY MR. EDWARDS: 13 Q. I didn't ask if you made the order. Isn't 14 it true that that occurred? 15 MR. INDYKE: Same objection. 16 MR. SIMPSON: Darren? 17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'm not so sure 18 you can waive that objection. 19 A. I wish I could. 20 BY MR. EDWARDS: 21 Q. Didn't the U.S. Attorney's Office issue 22 grand jury subpoenas to the investigators that were 23 working on Jeffrey Epstein's behalf and were holding 24 those computers, and those grand jury subpoenas 25 outstanding at the time that the case resolved? EFTA01137808 Page 477 1 A. All I can say -- 2 MR. INDYKE: Same objection and 3 instruction. 4 A. -- is I wish every video, every computer, 5 I wish everything that would show where 6 was had been turned over and would be turned 7 over. 8 MR. SCAROLA: Mr. Dershowitz's repeated 9 comments about what he wishes would happen are 10 an indirect statement that if he could answer 11 the questions, the responses that he would give 12 would be favorable to him and would exonerate 13 him. 14 His wishes are not the subject of the 15 inquiry. And every occasion on which he 16 expresses a wish and refuses to give an answer 17 is unresponsive to the questions that are being 18 asked, and should be stricken. 19 They also constitute a waiver to the 20 extent that they imply that if the question 21 could be answered, the answer would be 22 favorable. 23 I would ask you to instruct -- 24 MR. INDYKE: And to the extent that they 25 imply a waiver -- EFTA01137809 Page 478 1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on a 2 second. Let him finish. 3 MR. INDYKE: I apologize, Mr. Scarola. 4 MR. SCAROLA: That's quite all right, 5 thank you. 6 I know that over the speakerphone, it's 7 difficult, and I take no offense to the 8 interruption. I know it was inadvertent. 9 But I would ask that the witness be 10 instructed to discontinue that improper 11 assertion of statements of opinion when no 12 opinions are being requested. 13 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Counsel, do you 14 have a response? I think Mr. Scarola is done. 15 MR. INDYKE: My response is to the extent 16 that you're attempting to imply anything 17 from -- imply a waiver from Mr. Dershowitz, 18 Mr. Epstein does not waive, and instructs 19 Mr. Dershowitz that he can make no such waiver. 20 THE WITNESS: I have not refused to 21 answer. 22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on one 23 second. Let me say this: I would suggest that 24 I don't take such inference that he's waiving 25 based upon his general statements. EFTA01137810 Page 479 1 What -- we have been down a little bit of 2 this road this morning on trying to get to what 3 appears to be privileged information or 4 information that -- or activity that was 5 undertaken or not undertaken during the course 6 of the representation, the relationship -- the 7 attorney-client relationship between 8 Mr. Dershowitz and Mr. Epstein. 9 And at this point, based upon the 10 objection, I will uphold the objection and 11 we'll move forward. 12 MR. SCAROLA: The second part of my 13 request is that Mr. Dershowitz be instructed to 14 refrain from expressing a desire to answer 15 questions. It's not responsive. It implies 16 that if he could answer, the answers would be 17 favorable. 18 The implication is improper, and the 19 insertion into the record of the implication is 20 improper. If he can't answer the question, he 21 should simply say he cannot answer based on 22 privilege. 23 THE WITNESS: Can I respond? 24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No. Let me 25 respond. EFTA01137811 Page 480 1 I think that's appropriate. I do actually 2 agree with Mr. Scarola in this respect. I do 3 think that you should be responsive 4 specifically to the question if you can. 5 Where you can't, you state you can't. I 6 believe that the record is now full of your 7 views on some of this in a generic way, and so 8 with that said, I would ask that you be more 9 pointed with your answers. 10 THE WITNESS: I appreciate that. I just 11 want to comment that I did not ever refuse to 12 answer any of those questions. It was 13 instructed not to answer any of those 14 questions. 15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I do understand 16 that. For purposes of some efficiency here, I 17 would like to get through this within the time 18 alloted. 19 MR. EDWARDS: Me, too. Thank you. 20 BY MR. EDWARDS: 21 Q. Is there any nonprivileged information 22 which would demonstrate whether 23 statement that she was flown on Jeffrey Epstein's 24 plane while underage was true or false? 25 A. I'm sure there must be, but i don't have EFTA01137812 Page 481 1 it in my mind right now, so I can't answer that 2 question. 3 Q. The flight logs were previously marked 4 as 5 MR. SCAROLA: Exhibit 7. 6 BY MR. EDWARDS: 7 Q. -- as Exhibit 7 to the deposition. I'll 8 show you pages from Exhibit 7 which indicate the 9 dates of the flight logs for those on the phone 10 November 2002 through January -- sorry, 11 November 2000 through January 2001 and January 2001 12 through February 20th, 2001. 13 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Counsel? 14 MR. SCOTT: Okay. 15 A. Yes, I see the flights that you have 16 marked in green. 17 BY MR. EDWARDS: 18 Q. Do the flight logs indicate 19 as a passenger on Jeffrey Epstein's plane 20 with Jeffrey Epstein? 21 A. Well, the first one I look at does not. 22 It has J.E., G.M. and E.T. Although it's 23 underlined, it doesn't suggest 24 The second one does say J.E., G.M., E.T., 25 And the fourth and fifth ones say EFTA01137813 Page 482 1 And on the next page, two of them say 2 yes 3 Q. These in the year 2000 and early 2001; is 4 that correct? 5 A. I can't see dates. I see 2001. I see 6 November 2000. Could you remind me of 7 birthday. 8 Q. 9 A. So she would be at this 10 time. 11 Q. So she's traveling as a passenger under 12 the age of 18? That's my question. 13 A. Under the age of 18, but the age of 14 consent in numerous places that she flew to were 17 15 and 16. So New York, the age is 17, to my 16 recollection. And in New Mexico, I think it's 17. 17 And the Virgin Islands, I think it's 16. So the 18 answer to the question is she underage might well be 19 no. 20 4. My question was, is there nonprivileged 21 information that would indicate the truth or falsity 22 of her statement that she traveled on Jeffrey 23 Epstein's airplane with Jeffrey Epstein while under 24 the age of 18? 25 A. I do not know of any statement that she EFTA01137814 Page 483 1 said -- may have said it, but I don't have in my 2 mind any statement that says below the age of 18 as 3 distinguished from when she was underage. So you 4 would have to show me. If the statement was below 5 the age of 18, that would be correct. If the 6 statement would be underage, that would be more 7 questionable. 8 Q. Do you know the purpose for which she was 9 traveling with Jeffrey Epstein during the flights 10 indicated on those logs? 11 A. I do not. 12 MR. SCOTT: Privileged. 13 MR. INDYKE: Objection, work product, 14 attorney-client, common interest. 15 BY MR. EDWARDS: 16 Q. Your answer is "I do not"? 17 A. I do not. 18 Q. You have not ascertained from any source, 19 is what you're telling us, the purpose for her 20 travels with Jeffrey Epstein, correct? 21 MR. INDYKE: Objection. Same objection 22 and instruction. 23 BY MR. EDWARDS: 24 Q. You are unable to answer, or you have not? 25 A. I have been instructed not to answer. EFTA01137815 Page 484 1 Q. I misunderstood you. I thought you said 2 earlier "I have not," indicating that you don't know 3 the purpose? 4 A. I said that in answer to one question. 5 You've asked me other questions. 6 Q. Is there a legitimate purpose for her 7 being 17 years old, traveling with Jeffrey Epstein? 8 MR. SCOTT: Objection, argumentative. 9 MR. INDYKE: Objection. Same objection, 10 same instructions. 11 BY MR. EDWARDS: 12 Q. Isn't it a federal crime to knowingly 13 transport an individual who has not attained the age 14 of 18 years in interstate commerce with the intent 15 that that individual engage in prostitution or in 16 any sexual activity? 17 A. I haven't read the statute clearly, but I 18 think that's an accurate paraphrase of my 19 understanding of the law, yeah. 20 Q. Would you agree that that flight log in 21 front of you indicates a federal crime was being 22 committed against at the time when 23 she has said a federal crime was being committed 24 against her? 25 A. Oh, absolutely not. EFTA01137816 Page 485 1 MR. INDYKE: Objection. 2 A. Does not prove a federal crime. 3 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 4 instruction. 5 BY MR. EDWARDS: 6 Q. So that goes back to my last question. 7 What is, then, the legitimate reason that causes 8 that flight to fall outside of this criminal statute 9 that I just read to you? 10 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 11 instruction. 12 A. I can give this answer. My understanding 13 of federal law imposes the burden of proof on the 14 prosecution to demonstrate one of the illicit 15 purposes, and this does not satisfy that burden of 16 proof. So this would not prove that a federal crime 17 occurred. It would prove one element of that crime. 18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 19 Q. Was she lying when she said that the 20 purpose for which she was trafficked by Jeffrey 21 Epstein was for sex? 22 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 23 instructions. 24 A. I've been instructed not to answer the 25 question. EFTA01137817 Page 486 1 BY MR. EDWARDS: 2 Q. You can't answer the question? 3 A. I can give you this information. Based on 4 what her own friends have said in interviews that 5 are not privileged, they categorically deny that she 6 was trafficked. They claim that she willingly, 7 voluntarily went on her own in order to earn money, 8 that she showed off the money, that she was free to 9 leave at any time, that she he had a boyfriend who 10 she lived with at the time, that she went home every 11 night, and she was spending money like mad. That 12 would not, in my view, fit the definition of 13 trafficking. 14 Now, I certainly am sympathetic to her. 15 She may very well have been abused at some early 16 stage of her life, even before she met Epstein, and 17 that abuse may have led her to live a life of lies. 18 And one might be sympathetic to that, but it doesn't 19 excuse her lying about me, the fact that she may 20 have been abused. 21 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Move forward. 22 BY MR. EDWARDS: 23 Q. Let me try to understand that which you 24 are explaining right now, which is are you saying 25 that if she was traveling on Jeffrey Epstein's EFTA01137818 Page 487 1 airplane while underage for the purposes of sex and 2 or prostitution, that -- 3 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 4 instructions. 5 BY MR. EDWARDS: 6 Q. -- she was not being sexually trafficked 7 or would not be a victim of that statute? 8 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 9 instruction. 10 MR. EDWARDS: I'm asking a hypothetical 11 now based on his last statement. 12 MR. SCOTT: That's not a hypothetical. 13 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That's not how 14 you framed it. 15 BY MR. EDWARDS: 16 Q. Let me reframe it, then. 17 Assuming that -- I'll give you a 18 hypothetical based on what you say her friends have 19 told you, which is that she is free to leave while 20 being taken across state lines by Jeffrey Epstein. 21 This is the hypothetical. And being used for sexual 22 purposes. Is she, in that hypothetical, not a 23 victim to sexual trafficking? 24 MR. SCOTT: Objection to form, 25 speculation, argumentative. Can you answer EFTA01137819 Page 488 1 that? 2 A. I can answer it. Since you gave me a 3 hypothetical, as a law professor for 50 years, I 4 would give this as a hypothetical to my class. I 5 would ask my students do you think it's trafficking, 6 do you think a woman has been trafficked when she 7 voluntarily, below the age of consent in some 8 states, above the age of consent in other states, 9 when she voluntarily engages in sexual conduct for 10 money, free to leave at any time. 11 I think it would be an interesting 12 classroom discussion about whether that constitutes 13 trafficking. 14 That's a different question from whether 15 or not that would violate the statute. That would 16 violate the statute. But your question is, would it 17 constitute trafficking. That would be a very 18 interesting law school hypothetical. 19 BY MR. EDWARDS: 20 Q. In your opinion, does it constitute 21 trafficking? 22 A. I think the word "trafficking" is 23 overused, and I think should be reserved for the 24 kinds of people who I have enormous sympathy for, 25 people who have no choice, no options, whose EFTA01137820 Page 489 1 passports have been taken away, who have been forced 2 and coerced in some way to engage in sexual conduct. 3 And I think it begins to weaken the very 4 important term "trafficking" when it's applied to a 5 volunteer, close to her 18th birthday who was 6 enjoying and spending money and has the option of 7 leaving. I know that Sigrid McCawley is shaking her 8 head, but that's my honest opinion. 9 Q. Does your answer to the hypothetical 10 change if we rewind time to the beginning of her 11 relationship with Jeffrey Epstein when she's 15 or 12 16 years old? Meaning are you making a distinction 13 because she's 17 as opposed to 16 or 15? If so, 14 what's the cutoff? 15 A. Well, I think that age is relevant. 16 MR. INDYKE: For my clarification, this is 17 all hypothetical? 18 MR. SCAROLA: Yes, it is. 19 A. Age is one of the relevant factors. It's 20 not the only relevant factor. It's one of the 21 relevant factors. That's why your hypothetical was 22 17, almost 18, 17 and a half. 23 BY MR. EDWARDS: 24 Q. Let's get that right. That's when, 25 November 2000? EFTA01137821 Page 490 1 A. We're talking about January 2001. 2 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: We're still 3 operating under the hypothetical? 4 MR. EDWARDS: We are. I thought he said 5 that my hypothetical was almost 18. Which in 6 this hypothetical, she turns 18 in August of 7 2001. 8 THE WITNESS: 2001, the same year. 9 BY MR. EDWARDS: 10 Q. Was she lying when she said that 11 Epstein -- 12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Are we now done 13 with the hypothetical? 14 MR. EDWARDS: Yes, we are. 15 BY MR. EDWARDS: 16 Q. -- engaged in sex with many underage 17 girls? Was she lying when she said that? 18 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 19 instructions. 20 A. I can only say this. You -- 21 MR. SIMPSON: Was there an instruction? 22 A. There was an instruction, but I can answer 23 without that. 24 You have accused me of having sex with 25 many underage girls -- EFTA01137822 Page 491 1 MR. EDWARDS: I move to strike this as 2 nonresponsive to my question 3 A. -- based on no evidence whatsoever. 4 MR. EDWARDS: I want a ruling on the 5 Motion to Strike. 6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let me hear the 7 rest of it. 8 A. So when you say "many," I need to know 9 with some precision what you have in mind. 10 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'll strike the 11 first part of it, the first part of his answer. 12 And if you can assist him in defining "many." 13 BY MR. EDWARDS: 14 Q. Sure. You do know Bob Josefsberg, 15 correct? 16 A. I've known him since 1959. 17 Q. And you are aware that he represented, I 18 believe, more than 15 girls who claimed to have been 19 victims of Mr. Epstein in this case, aren't you? 20 A. I recommended him for that job because I 21 think so highly of him. 22 Q. And in his Complaints, are you aware that 23 he's made the allegation that Defendant Epstein has 24 a sexual preference for underage minor girls? Are 25 you aware of that? EFTA01137823 Page 492 1 MR. SCOTT: Just for the record, object to 2 the relevancy of all of this. 3 A. I'm not aware of that. 4 MR. INDYKE: Just for the record, to the 5 extent that Alan's answer requires him to 6 invade privilege, I would object and instruct 7 him not to answer. 8 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Within the 9 confines of the privilege objection, if you can 10 answer. 11 A. I'm not aware that he said that. I 12 haven't read his pleadings. 13 BY MR. EDWARDS: 14 Q. Okay. Are you aware that in his 15 pleadings, he wrote "Defendant Epstein used his 16 resources and his influence over vulnerable minor 17 girls to engage in a systemic -- systematic pattern 18 of sexually exploited behavior"? 19 A. I'm not aware. 20 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 21 instruction. 22 A. I was not involved in that aspect of the 23 case. 24 BY MR. EDWARDS: 25 Q. You were not involved in the facts part of EFTA01137824 Page 493 1 the case? 2 A. I was not involved in the compensation 3 part of the case. The part that Bob Josefsberg was 4 involved in, I was not involved in. 5 MR. INDYKE: Alan, just admonishment, 6 let's not go into the subject matter of your 7 representation, please. 8 BY MR. EDWARDS: 9 Q. Going back, was she lying when she says 10 Jeffrey Epstein was for one of his birthdays sent 11 three 12-year-old girls? Was she lying when she 12 said that? 13 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 14 instruction. 15 A. I have absolutely no -- 16 MR. SIMPSON: You got an instruction. 17 A. Okay. 18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 19 Q. Are you aware of in the Com laint where 20 Bob Josefsberg initially represented 21 that Bob Josefsberg is the first to put that 22 allegation in the Complaint? Were you aware of 23 that? 24 A. Not aware of that, no. I wouldn't put -- 25 MR. SIMPSON: Please, just answer the EFTA01137825 Page 494 1 question. 2 BY MR. EDWARDS: 3 Q. In 2009, when that Complaint and that 4 allegation was asserted, are you aware that Jeffrey 5 Epstein never refuted that allegation in any 6 pleading? 7 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 8 instruction. 9 BY MR. EDWARDS: 10 Q. Were you representing Jeffrey Epstein in 11 2009? 12 A. Not in connection with that case. And I 13 was not aware of what his response was, if any. 14 Q. Are you aware that after that allegation 15 was made by that Jeffrey Epstein 16 paid money to settle her case? 17 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 18 instruction. 19 MR. SCOTT: Let me object to all the 20 relevancy of this. 21 A. My understanding is that the plea bargain 22 required him to make payments regardless of what his 23 views may have been, that he was absolutely required 24 to make those payments. He had no discretion. 25 That's my understanding. I may be wrong, but you EFTA01137826 Page 495 1 can check the actual nonprosecution agreement, but 2 that's my understanding of what it said, that he 3 could not contest anything. 4 BY MR. EDWARDS: 5 Q. You were one of the attorneys that 6 represented Jeffrey Epstein in the negotiations with 7 the United States Attorney's Office, right? 8 A. Right, along with Kenneth Starr -- 9 MR. INDYKE: Same objection. Objection. 10 A. No, I don't think you can object to that. 11 These are people who are at the hearings, at the 12 events with the U.S. Attorney. The people who were 13 at the events representing Jeffrey Epstein is not 14 privileged, included Roy Black, Ken Starr, Marty 15 Weinberg, Jay Lefkowitz -- 16 MR. SCAROLA: Not responsive. 17 A. -- Jerry Lefcourt. 18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 19 Q. I only asked if you were one of the 20 lawyers. 21 A. I was one of them, yes. 22 Q. The answer is yes? 23 A. The complete answer is yes, but the rest 24 of the people were part of the legal team. 25 Q. I will ask you when I want somebody else's EFTA01137827 Page 496 1 name. 2 Were you a part of the negotiations in 3 October of 2007 when the special matter was 4 selected? You remember that part? 5 A. Is the special master Josephsburg? 6 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 7 instruction. 8 BY MR. EDWARDS: 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. My recollection is that I was simply asked 11 for a recommendation, but I played no further role. 12 Q. Were you aware that there was a joint 13 letter to the special master created between Jeffrey 14 Epstein's attorneys and the United States Attorney's 15 Office describing the investigation? 16 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 17 instruction. 18 A. I'm not -- as I sit here today, I have no 19 recollection of that. 20 BY MR. EDWARDS: 21 Q. Was lying when she says 22 that while underage, she was made to massage Jeffrey 23 Epstein in the nude, while he masturbated? 24 A. I have no idea. 25 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same EFTA01137828 Page 497 1 instruction. 2 BY MR. EDWARDS: 3 Q. If I show you the proposed joint letter to 4 the special master, will it refresh your 5 recollection? 6 A. I want to add to the last question. When 7 I say I have no idea, I do know that she said that 8 she was giving oral sex to Jeffrey Epstein while I 9 stood next to him, and that is a total, categorical, 10 absolute lie. So I know she lied about that. 11 MR. EDWARDS: Move to strike as 12 nonresponsive. 13 A. But that's relevant to standing naked and 14 being masturbated. 15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Move on to your 16 next question. 17 A. Yes. 18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 19 Q. When I am asking for nonprivileged 20 information or evidence that would give you the 21 ability to tell me whether is lying 22 when she says she had sex with Jeffrey Epstein while 23 underage, would you consider a joint letter crafted 24 between Jeffrey Epstein's lawyers and the United 25 States Attorney's Office to form the basis of that EFTA01137829 Page 498 1 answer? Let me rephrase the question. 2 When I'm asking for nonprivileged 3 information that you may have to demonstrate the 4 truth or falsity of statement that 5 she was made to have sex with Jeffrey Epstein while 6 underage, would you consider the joint letter to the 7 special master evidence from which you could draw an 8 answer? 9 MR. SCOTT: Objection. 10 A. I would have to know more about it than 11 that. I would have to know the nature of the 12 letter, the reason it was sent. 13 BY MR. EDWARDS: 14 Q. Would you like to review the letter? Is 15 that going to help you? 16 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Ask him if he's 17 seen the letter first. 18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 19 Q. You were part of the team that was mainly 20 negotiating with U.S. Attorney's Office, correct? 21 A. I was only negotiating the criminal part 22 of the case. 23 Q. Okay. I'm going to show you the letter, 24 and if you had nothing to do with it, tell me that. 25 If you've never seen it before, then tell me that. EFTA01137830 Page 499 1 I guess my first question is, have you 2 seen it? 3 MR. INDYKE: I would object to that. 4 MR. SCOTT: I would like to make a request 5 for this depo and future depositions, if they 6 are going to show exhibits to a witness, I 7 think we should be -- have a copy of them. 8 We provided copies to you of all exhibits 9 we used during the deposition of your client. 10 And I think if you're going to pull out 11 exhibits and have one, you should have at least 12 copies for counsel, and I would agree to do the 13 same thing, rather than having to run and make 14 a copy and all the rest of it. 15 MR. EDWARDS: I wasn't ready for him to be 16 unfamiliar with his and his legal team's 17 correspondence. 18 MR. SCOTT: I understand, but you haven't 19 had any all day. So all I'm asking you, 20 Mr. Edwards, is that we have copies of exhibits 21 that you intend to confront the witness with. 22 That's -- as you pointed out, you've got all 23 the questions laid out, so you know where we're 24 headed. There's a note on here. Do you want 25 that on there? EFTA01137831 Page 500 1 MR. EDWARDS: No. 2 MR. SCOTT: It's one of your cheat sheet 3 notes. I don't know if you really want that on 4 there. 5 MR. EDWARDS: It just says "Isn't this 6 nonprivileged?" 7 MR. SCOTT: Okay. It's still an exhibit 8 going into evidence, right? Without your 9 notes? 10 MR. SIMPSON: Can we get it marked? 11 THE WITNESS: This is a draft, not a 12 letter. 13 MR. EDWARDS: I said it's a proposed 14 letter. I read the title exactly. 15 (Thereupon, marked as Plaintiff Exhibit 16 19.) 17 A. This is not -- it's not familiar to me 18 except that what I said previously that as part of 19 the resolution of this case, Mr. Epstein agreed he 20 would not contest jurisdiction for the victims who 21 chose to sue him, et cetera, is consistent with my 22 memory, but I have no recollection of actually 23 seeing this draft, this proposed draft. 24 MR. SCOTT: That's number? 25 COURT REPORTER: Nineteen. EFTA01137832 Page 501 1 BY MR. EDWARDS: 2 Q. Wouldn't you agree -- wasn't 3 one of the listed victims to the 4 nonprosecution agreement? 5 A. If so, I was not aware of. 6 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 7 instruction. 8 BY MR. EDWARDS: 9 Q. As you sit here today, after having made 10 many statements about being a 11 serial liar -- 12 A. She is. 13 Q. -- you have no idea whether she was a 14 listed victim to the nonprosecution agreement? 15 MR. SCOTT: Objection, asked and answered. 16 MR. INDYKE: Same objection, same 17 instruction. 18 A. Right now, I have no recollection of 19 whether she was listed or not. 20 BY MR. EDWARDS: 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. I know that the FBI tried to speak to her 23 and she wouldn't speak to them is my recollection. 24 MR. SCAROLA: That's not responsive. 25 MR. EDWARDS: Not responsive. EFTA01137833 Page 502 1 MR. SCAROLA: Move to strike. 2 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That, I will 3 strike. Move forward. 4 BY MR. EDWARDS: 5 Q. Was Virginia lying when she says that 6 Jeffrey Epstein also had sex with a girl named 7 who is a Hollywood actress, from the time 8 was 13 years old? 9 MR. INDYKE: Same objections, same 10 instruction. 11 MR. SCOTT: Can you answer that? 12 A. I've never heard that name. It's not 13 familiar to me at all. 14 BY MR. EDWARDS: 15 Q. Was lying when she says 16 she traveled to Jeffrey Epstein's island when 17 underage? 18 MR. INDYKE: Same objections, same 19 instruction. 20 BY MR. EDWARDS: 21 Q. By "underage," I mean under the age of 18. 22 A. I can only tell you I never saw her on the 23 island. I was on the island when she was not there. 24 I would love to know whole story she was 25 on the island -- EFTA01137834 Page 503 1 MR. SCOTT: There's no question pending. 2 BY MR. EDWARDS: 3 Q. The two-page flight log exhibit, if we 4 look at January 22nd, 2001, and also 5 December 14th, 2000, can you look at those, and 6 I'll ask a question. 7 A. Sure. Give me the dates again. 8 January 16? 9 Q. Where it has the departing airport code 10 and -- 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. -- where she's landing. 13 A. Right. 14 Q. TIST is the code for Virgin Islands, 15 correct? 16 A. I have no idea. Been to the Virgin 17 Islands once that I remember. 18 Q. You have been to Jeffrey Epstein's home on 19 the Virgin Islands, haven't you? 20 MR. SCOTT: He's already answered that. 21 A. I was with my wife and my