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IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SEVENTEENTH JUDICIAL
CIRCUIT IN AND FOR BROWARD COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO.: CACE 15-000072
BRADLEY J. EDWARDS and PAUL G.
CASSELL,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ,
Defendant.
VIDEOTAPE CONTINUED DEPOSITION OF
ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ
VOLUME 5
Pages 648 through 781
Wednesday, January 13, 2016
9:04 a.m. - 11:59 a.m.
Tripp Scott
110 Southeast 6th Street
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
Stenographically Reported By:
Kimberly Fontalvo, RPR, CLR
Realtime Systems Administrator
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(888)811-3408
EFTA00602439
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1 APPEARANCES: 1 INDEX
2 2
On behalf of Plaintiffs:
3 3
SEARCY. DENNEY. SCAROLA Examination Page
4 BARNHART & SHIPLEY. P.A. 4
2139 Palm Beach Lakes Boulevard
s West Palm Beach. Florida 33402-3626 5 VOLUME 5 (Pages 648 - 781)
BY: JACK SCAROLA. ESQ. 6
6 jsx esearcyhw.com 7 Certificate of Oath 778
7
a On behalf of Defendant: Certificate of Reporter 779
9 COLE. SCOTT & KISSANE. P.A. 8 Read and Sign Letter to Witness 780
Dadeland Centre II - Suite 1400 Errata Sheet (forwarded upon execution) 781
10 9150 South Dadeland Boulevard
9
Miami. Herida 33156
11 BY: THOMAS EMERSON SCOTT. JR.. ESQ. 10 PLAINTIFF EXHIBITS
thotnas.scou6ksklegal.com 11
12 BY: STEVEN SAFRA. ESQ. (Via phone)
steven.safranieskkgalcom 12 No. Page
13 -and- 13 25 Transcript from Don Lemon Interview 689
14 SWEDER & ROSS. 112 14
Ill Oliver Street 15
15 Boston. MA 02110
BY: KENNETH k SWEDER. ESQ. 16
16 kswederesweder-ross.com 17
17 -and-
18 18
WILEY. REIN
17769 K Suet, NW 19
19 Washington. DC 20006 20
BY: RICHARD A. SIMPSON. ESQ. 21
20 RSimpson6wilepein.com
21 22
22 23
23
24 24
25 25
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1 APPEARANCES (Continued): 1 Thereupon. the proceedings continued at 9:04 a.m.
2 2 VIDEOGRAPHER: Are now on the video
3 On behalf of Jeffrey Epstein: 3 record. This is the 13th day of January. 2016.
4 DARREN K. INDYKE. PLLC 4 The time is 9:04 am. This is the videotaped
575 Lexington Ave.. 4th Fl.
5 deposition of Alan Dershowitz in the matter of
5 New York, New York
BY: DARREN K. INDYKE, ESQ. (Via phone) 6 Bradley Edwards and Paul Cassell versus Alan
6 7 Dershowitz.
7 On behalf of 8 My name is Marcy Martinez_ I am the
8 BOLES. SCHILLER & FLEXNER, LLP 9 videographer representing Above & Beyond
401 E. Las Olas Blvd_ Ste. 1200 10 Reprographics. Will the attorneys please
9 Fat Lauderdale. Florida 33301
11 announce their appearances for the record.
BY: SIGRID STONE MCCAWLEY, ESQ.
10 [email protected] 12 MR. EDWARDS: Sure. On behalf of the
11 13 plaintiff today Brad Edwards. Jack Scarola
12 ALSO PRESENT: 19 Brittany Henderson and Paul Cassell.
13 Edward I. P012U011. Special Master 15 MR. SIMPSON: On behalf of the defendant
14 Sean D. Reyes. Utah Attorney General Office 16 and the witness. Richard Simpson. and Thomas
15 Marcy Martinez. Videographer
16 17 Scott will be joining. He just walked in.
17 18 MS. McCAWLEY: On behalf of nonparty
18 19 Sigrid McCawley and my
19 20 colleague Meredith Schultz from Boles. Schiller
20 21 & Plexner.
21
22 MR. INDYKE: On behalf of Jeffrey Epstein.
22
23 23 Darren Indyke.
24 24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Ed Ponuoli as
25 25 the special master.
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1 MR. SIMPSON: Is there anyone else on the 1 And I knew, of course, that I had never
2 phone? 2 met -- had no contact with I knew
3 MR. MAISEL: Yeah, this is Nicholas 3 that she was lying. I read her deposition. and as
9 Maisel. 9 an experienced lawyer with 50 years of experience,
5 THE COURT REPORTER: Would you raise your 5 it was absolutely clear to me that no lay person
6 right hand. please? 6 with her lack of education could have written that
7 Do you swear or affirm that the testimony 7 deposition.
8 you are about to give will be the truth, the 8 I sought the advice of friends and others
9 whole truth, and nothing but the truth? 9 with experience who confirmed the view that that
10 THE WITNESS: I do. 10 affidavit clearly had to have been written by
11 MR. SCAROLA: Nick would you announce the 11 lawyers and certainly drafted by lawyers: the level
12 capacity in which you're appearing, please. 12 of detail, the structure of the sentences, all of
13 MR. MAISEL: Special research assistant 13 which led me conclusively to the belief that the
14 for Alan Dershowitz, 14 lawyers had written this affidavit.
15 MR. SCAROLA: Thank you. 15 I suspected from the very beginning that
16 MR. EDWARDS: Are we ready? 16 this was part of an extortion plot in order to
17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Go ahead. 17 obtain money. I later learned many. many. many
18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 18 facts.
19 Q. Mr. Dershowitx, in January of 2015. when 19 MR. EDWARDS: I object and move to strike
20 you made the statements that Paul Cassell unit Brad 20 as nonresponsive and that the question calls
21 Edwards participated in the fabricating of the 21 for information in his possession in January of
22 allegations that were made against you, what 22 2015. I would ask for a ruling on that.
23 information or evidence did you have in your 23 A. I'm providing that. but I'm giving the
24 possession at that time to support those statements? 29 context.
25 MR. SIMPSON: Object to the form as overly 25 SPECIAL MASTER P0ZZUOLI: Denied. Move
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1 general. You may answer. 1 forward.
2 A. As soon as the allegations were made 2 A. Okay. I knew that there was a financial
3 against me. I received a series of phone calls and 3 motivation here. I also knew that Cassell and
4 people approached me at various events and they 4 Edwards had lied when the said they were
5 warned me about the reputation of Bradley Edwards. 5 representing in a pro bono basis.
6 They told me that he had, in their view. 6 I had been informed repeatedly that they
7 participated in a major fraud with a man named 7 were in it for the money and that they expected to
8 Rothstein. that he should be in jail for the 8 earn a lot of money from representing her and others
9 Rothstein events. 9 in this case and that they pretended to be pro bono
10 I received a phone call saying that he had 10 lawyers when they were, in fact. money-grubbing.
11 fabricated evidence when he was a plos,utor and 11 money-hungry lawyers who had earned a very
12 that he had knowingly failed to investigate police 12 substantial amount of money already on these cases
13 fabrication of evidence in a case. Generally was 13 and were expecting to earn mom money.
19 warned about the terrible reputation that 14 Let me think of what other information I
15 Mr. Edwards had. 15 had.
16 I also received phone calls telling me 16 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: At the time of
17 that Mr. Cassell was a zealot, that he had used me 17 the question.
18 in class as a whipping — as a kind of an object of 18 A. At the time of my statements, right.
19 hate and painted me as a liberal supporter of the 19 It's just inconceivable to me that this
20 exclusionary rule and opponent of the death penalty. 20 uneducated woman could have come up with this story
21 and that he had no concern for the truth when it 21 on her own.
22 came to his zealotry on behalf of alleged victims. 22 I understood the motives of the lawyers.
23 The calls were just -- the people who told 23 and I was convinced, therefore, it was my opinion
29 me this were just -- there were so many of them that 24 based on my experience, in fact. that she could not
25 it was amazing to me. 25 have done this by herself and that she had to have
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1 worked in coordination with her lawyers. 1 no. no. no. Na Respond to the question that
2 Her lawyers were also at that point 2 was answered and go ahead because I haven't
3 claiming that the story should be believed because 3 heard any objection yet.
4 of who they were. Mr. Cassell. in my view. 4 MR. EDWARDS: I'm objecting to all of this
5 unethically signed his pleading with the University 5 as being nonresponsive to the question.
6 of Utah imprimatur. suggesting that he was a State 6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Is there
7 actor. suggesting that he acted an behalf of his 7 anything else that you would like to add to the
8 university, something I would never do and I've 8 answer?
9 stopped clients from doing. When I represent 9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 people. I represent them on my own behalf. not on 10 A. When the newspapers called me. they all
11 behalf of any university. 11 asked me the following question --
12 The very fact that the Attorney General of 12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Was this in
13 Utah was here yesterday indicates that he may very 13 January?
14 well be a State actor and subject to the rules of 14 A. This was in January.
15 State action rather than individual action. 15 BY MR. EDWARDS:
16 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That portion I 16 Q. The question on the table Is —
17 will strike. That sentence. 17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on one
18 A. Sony. 18 second.
19 BY MR. EDWARDS: 19 A. I'm going to tell you.
20 Q. Okay. 20 MR. EDWARDS: What information that
21 A. Tm not finished. 21 Mr. Dershowitz had in January 4.2015. when he
22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Is there any 22 made the statement that Paul Cassell and Brad
23 other information that you haven't touched 23 Edwards fabricated the allegations against him.
24 on — 24 MR. SIMPSON: The question was about in
25 THE WITNESS: I'm (tying to— 25 January of 2015.
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1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: -- as of. what. 1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That's what it
2 January? 2 was. That was the original question. which is
3 MR. EDWARDS: January of 2015. 3 why he was afforded a tremendous amount of
4 THE WITNESS: Oh. yes. 4 latitude.
5 MR. SCAROLA: January 4. 5 MR. EDWARDS: Understood.
6 MR. EDWARDS: January 4.2015. 6 A. And I got continuing information all
7 A. Okay. that's the question. But. of 7 through January and amended my statements as
8 course. I made a sales of statements that continued 8 consistent with the information that I ga.
9 beyond January 4. and they always took into account 9 The newspapers called me. They all said
10 new developments and new information that I had. 10 to me. why would anybody make a false allegation if
11 I was also aware that Mr. Cassell was 11 he's a former Federal judge. if he's a professor. if
12 promoting himself as a former federal judge and 12 he's a distinguished trial lawyer?
13 using his status and imprimatur in a false effort to 13 Clearly the -- on the 4th of December.
14 try to add credibility to the story. 14 talking about that day. that's the day on which
15 And I did not make -- this is very 15 Mr. Cassell wrote to ABC —
16 important to this. I did not make a single call to 16 BY MR. EDWARDS:
17 a single newspaper or single television station. to 17 Q. January.
18 my knowledge. or a single newspaper. I was 18 A. January 4. 2015. that's the date on which
19 constantly responding. 19 Mr. Cassell wrote to ABC News asking them to
20 MR. SCAROLA: That's not responsive. 20 publicize his client's story and to — and again
21 A. Excuse me. In the last deposition -- 21 making it clear to ABC who he was and what he -- and
22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No. no. 22 who he had been and what offices he had held.
23 A. -- there was an interruption by 23 And so it was clear to me at that point.
24 Mr. Scarola that I want to put on the record. 24 and through January it became clearer and clearer
25 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No. no. no. no. 25 that she could not have done this on her own, that
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1 she had to have sat with her lawyers and concocted 1 MR. EDWARDS: Affidavit.
2 this story. added the kind of detail to the story 2 A. — if I hadn't seen it at that point. I
3 that would make a lie seem plausible and credible. 3 don't remember the exact day when her affidavit came
4 And I think that any reasonable lawyer reading that 4 in. I referred obviously to the pleadings. That
5 affidavit would have come to exactly the same 5 was the allegation, the allegation in the pleadings.
6 conclusion that I came to. 6 So if I said that you and Cassell sat and
7 SPECIAL MASTER P0ZZUOL1: Okay. 7 helped her make it up. it was based on -- at that
8 BY MR. EDWARDS: B point in time, based on you and her. primarily you
9 Q. Mr. Dershowitz, when you first made the 9 and Cassell. because she didn't submit -- it wasn't
10 statement on January 4..2015 that Mr. Cassell and 10 an affidavit at that point.
11 Brad Edwards had participated in the fabrication of 11 It was your words. you. that were accusing
12 these allegations. did you have before you any 12 me of these heinous crimes without any basis. So I
13 affidavit or, as you have repeatedly called it, 13 surely had a basis on January 4th of attributing it
14 deposition of 14 to you because it was your signature on the —
15 MR. SIMPSON: Object to the form. It's 15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hold on a
16 referring to a specific statement that has not 16 second. So I understand. the question is what
17 been identified for the witness. 17 did you have on January 4th —
18 A. Affidavit of ' What I had 18 MR. EDWARDS: -- 2015 to support that
19 was the lawyers statements that were included in 19 statement.
20 the Complaint, which they then sought to publicize 20 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Just answer that
21 all around the world and got more than a thousand 21 question first and then you can explain. but —
22 newspapers to cover the story. every television 22 A. With due respect. Your Honor. I think the
23 station in the world. every radio station virtually 23 question was, did you have the affidavit in front of
24 in the world. based on what they themselves had 24 you.
25 written. actually gives me even a greater basis. 25
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1 because it wasn't at that point based on her 1 BY MR. EDWARD$:
2 affidavit, it was based on what the lawyers had 2 Q. Right. Okay. Did you have the affidavit
3 said. 3 or deposition of on that day?
4 MR. EDWARDS: I object. Can I have the 4 A. To my recollection. I did not. 1had only
5 question read back. I'm lost as to what the 5 your characterization of the accusation which you
6 question is anymore. 6 were making against me.
7 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Ask — reread 7 Q. And in your experience as an attorney,
8 the question. 8 isn't it common knowledge that attorneys drafting
9 COURT REPORTER: 'Mr. Dershowitz. when you 9 complaints or pleadings take the word of the client
10 first made the statement on January 4. 2015 10 to form the basis of that Complaint or pleading?
11 that Mr. Cassell and Brad Edwards had 11 A. No. it's not common knowledge. It's
12 participated in the fabrication of these 12 common knowledge that unethical lawyers of the kind
13 allegations. did you have before you any 13 that your reputation told me you were help the
14 affidavit or. as you have repeatedly called it. 14 clients —
15 deposition of r 15 MR. EDWARDS: I object. Move to strike as
16 BY MR. EDWARDS: 16 nonresponsive.
17 Q. Did you? 17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That. I am going
18 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: So that's the 18 to strike. Try -- try to answer the question.
19 question. Answer that question only. 19 A. But I think the generic answer is ethical
20 MR. SCAROLA: Move to strike everything 20 lawyers — let me put it this way. ethical lawyers
21 else he's said. 21 should not elaborate on what a client tells them in
22 A. On January 4th. to my memory. I did not 22 an affidavit.
23 refer to a deposition or to whatever other word you 23 In my experience. there's a continuum.
24 used -- what was the word? 24 Many. many lawyers. when they see a statement by a
25 MR. SIMPSON: Affidavit. 25 client they'll say. no. no. no. no. could you
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1 please elaborate on that. You say you had sex with 1 MR. INDYKE: Instruct Alan not to answer
2 him. Was it one time? Was it two times? Could it 2 to the extent it would disclose communications
3 have been six times? Could it have been on the 3 of who made those —
4 airplane? Could it have been -- et cetera. 4 SPECIAL MASTER PO'CLUOLI: Objection noted.
5 So I think it's a continuum of the way S You can answer it.
6 lawyers work with clients. The most ethical lawyers 6 A. What framework are you giving me in terms
7 don't change what a client says. They word for word 7 of time?
8 repeat what the client says. 8 SPECIAL MASTER PO'CLUOLI: In January.
9 The most unethical lawyers will put all of 9 BY MR. EDWARDS:
10 their own thoughts. words. ideas if it strengthens 10 Q. You told me that before you made these
11 their position and strengthens their case. 11 statements. one of the things that you had in your
12 From what I had been -- from the 12 possesskm was a series of phone calls. "a bunch of
13 information I knew at that time. I put you on the 13 people called me" —
14 extreme unethical end of the continuum. 14 A. That is right. That's true.
15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That wasn't the 15 Q. -- "and told me Brad Edwards participated
16 question. so I will strike the last sentence. 16 in major fraud with Rothstein." That's the first
17 We need to get focused on answering the 17 question I want answered. What are the names of
18 question. so please try to do that. 18 those people?
19 A. Okay. I will do that. 19 A. A number of them who called me were ones
20 BY MR. EDWARDS: 20 who volunteered —
21 Q. When you first made the statements that 21 MR. SCAROLA: That's not a response to the
22 Paul Cassell and Brad Edwards fabricated the 22 question.
23 allegations — 23 BY MR. EDWARDS:
24 A. Would you read me the statement that you 24 Q. What are the names?
25 say I made on January 4th so I can understand what 25 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Stop. stop.
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1 rem saying? 1 please. please. please.
2 Q. Do you deny making the statement that Brad 2 A. I'm invoicing the privilege, if you would
3 Edwards and Paul Cassell fabricated the allegations 3 allow me. please. A number of those who called me
4 against you? 4 called me in tandem to volunteer to be my lawyer.
5 A. I remember making a series of statements 5 I'll give you an example.
6 over time. I do not remember what I said on 6 SPECIAL MASTER PUELUOLI: No. no. hang on.
7 January 4th. In order to ask me what I had at the 7 A. I can't name this person because he called
8 time I made the statement. I need to know with 8 to give me legal advice. and I — he gave me that
9 precision the exact statement you are referring to 9 information as pan of his legal advice.
10 and the exact date. I think that's a fair request. 10 BY MR. EDWARDS:
11 Q. We'll get that for you. It would be 11 Q. I'm not asking if one of the lawyers who
12 easier had you made less statements, but we'll sift 12 represented you and you have an attorney-client
13 through them. 13 privilege with has shared with you some information
14 A. If would be easier if you had called -- 14 that they believe to he the case.
15 MR. SIMPSON: There's no question. Object 15 I'm asking if you are using as support for
16 to the sidebar comments. 16 your statement that certain people told you and you
17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Yes, let's -- 17 relied upon this -- and the particular "this" at
18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 18 this point is that Brad Edward participated in a
19 Q. What are the names -- please list for me 19 major fraud with Scott Rothstein -- I want to know
20 all of the names of the people who told you that -- 20 the names of those people that you are relying upon
21 in quotes -- Brad Edwards was -- participated in a 21 to test veracity of that statement, please. Names
22 major fraud with Rothstein. Names of people. 22 of people.
23 MR. INDYKE: Objection based upon 23 A. One of the names was of a person who I was
24 attorney-client, work product. common interest. 24 seeking legal representation from. and it was pan
25 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Well, okay. 25 of my conversation with him regarding legal
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1 representation. 1 MR. INDYKE: Sane objection. same
2 MR. SCAROLA: That's not a name. 2 instruction.
3 MR. EDWARDS: I'm sorry. I object and I 3 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: He's —
4 ask — 4 MR. EDWARDS: Calls for a yes or no.
5 A. If I give you the name — S SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: He's only asked
6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I do think you 6 if you aware that the case was dismissed at
7 have to give the name. 7 that time.
8 A. Okay. The name of that person would be 8 A. I don't think I was. But a case being
9 David Markus. 9 dismissed does not mean the allegation isn't true.
10 BY MR. EDWARDS: 10 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: 1understand.
11 Q. Okay. 11 but --
12 A. And he told me to check the docket -- 12 BY MR. EDWARDS:
13 MR. SIMPSON: Just the question. 13 Q. Okay. In addition to David Markus, can
14 BY MR. EDWARDS: 14 you please complete this list of people that you
15 Q. When did David Markus call you to tell you 15 testified called you to tell you specifically that
16 that he knew or believed that Brad Edwards 16 Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud with
17 participated in a major fraud with Rothstein? 17 Rothstein?
18 A. Within days. Within probably a day or 18 A. So, I spoke several times during that
19 two. 19 period of time at various events. And people • -
20 Q. Did he tell you what it was that formed 20 lawyers came over to me and told me --
21 the basis for that statement that he made to you 21 Q. I'm not asking where. Who? What are the
22 that you so relied upon? 22 names?
23 A. I don't recall. 23 A. I can tell you one of them --
24 Q. Was it more than the fact that your 24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: He's trying to
25 client, Jeffrey Epstein. had filed a lawsuit making 25 be -- I would allow him to answer it. He's
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1 those allegations? 1 trying to be responsive to the question.
2 A. I don't think he was aware that Jeffrey 2 Please proceed.
3 Epstein had nude an allegation of that kind. 3 A. One of them was a Conner president or
4 Q. At the time when David Markus called you 4 chairman or at least member of the Florida Bar
5 to tell you that Brad Edwards participated in a 5 committee who warned me about you.
6 major fraud with Rothstein did you already — 6 BY MR. EDWARDS:
7 A. That's not — 7 Q. Does he have a name?
9 Q. -- have or know that Scott Rothstein had 8 A. I dont remember his name. I don't
9 testified under oath about that specific subject 9 remember his name. no. Of course he has a name, but
10 matter? 10 I don't remember his name.
11. A. Well. I cant imagine that mite relying 11 Another was — I mean — just hard to
12 on Scott Rothstein's credibility. 12 pinpoint names. but it was something that was
13 Q. I'm asking, did you know? 13 clearly in my mind that so many people were telling
14 MR. SIMPSON: Just answer the question. 14 me -- telling me to look into the case of Rothstein.
15 BY MR. EDWARDS: 15 telling me that you were his protege.
16 Q. Yes or no? 16 Q. Okay. Is it true, then, that you have the
11 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOU: Did you know? 17 name of one person who you can identify told you
18 A. I did not know. 18 that Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud with
19 BY MR. EDWARDS: 19 Rothstein?
20 Q. Did you know at that point in time that 20 A. I was also aware, of course. of the
21 the Complaint that was tiled by your client. Jeffrey 21 Complaint that had been filed against you. And that
22 Epstein. against Brad Edwards. making those exact 22 was one — I mean, I cant comment on that because
n allegations, had been dismissed at the stage -- at 23 of lawyer-client privilege.
24 the point in time when David Markus was making these 24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Listen to the
25 statements to you that you so relied upon? 25 question, Professor. Go ahead.
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1 BY MR. EDWARDS: 1 MR. SIMPSON: He did not testify that
2 Q. Is it now your testimony that you can only 2 he — we went through long questions and
3 provide me with one name of one human being that 3 answers in response to Mr. Edwards' questions.
4 called you and told you Brad Edwards participated in 4 He did not say he was relying on what his
5 a major fraud with Rothstein? 5 lawyers told him in this case.
6 A. 1 will try to think of others. 6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I think that
7 Probably -- I may have some notes of others. I will 7 there is — let me say this: I think the
8 call around and find out whether my memory is 8 question was from Mr. Edwards whether he relied
9 correct or not. 9 on statements from his lawyers. I do think
10 MR. SIMPSON: Professor -- 10 that you have to answer that question.
11 A. But I don't want to mention names without 11 A. I would say that the statements from my
12 being sure. 12 lawyers played a small role. The larger role --
13 MR. SIMPSON: Just do you recall, as you 13 BY MR. EDWARDS:
14 sit here, the names? 14 Q. I want to know about that small role.
15 A. And right now. I don't recall names. other 15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on one
16 than a general discussion with my lawyers. And in 16 second. So now proceed.
17 the general discussion with my lawyers -- and I 17 BY MR. EDWARDS:
18 don't want to get into it -- 18 Q. Sure. I would like to know whose
19 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Then don't do 19 statements it was that played a small role in your
20 it. 20 belief that Brad Edwards fabricated cases based on
21 BY MR. EDWARDS: 21 the statements that they made to you that
22 Q. Are you relying upon the statements from 22 Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud with
23 your lawyers to support this allegation that the 23 Rothstein. What arc the name of those individuals?
24 basis of your statement that Brad Edwards 24 A. It's a complicated question here. So
25 participated in the fabrication of the allegations 25 there are three issues that I understand. One, what
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1 against you was a list of people told you 1 was the basis for my belief that you had fabricated
2 Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud with 2 along with Mr. Cassell --
3 Rothstein: and, if so. I want to know the names of 3 Q. No, I'm asking for names of human beings.
4 those lawyers that you are using to support that 4 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No. let me stop
S allegation? 5 you. My understanding of your testimony was
6 SIR. SIMPSON: Well, we have asserted 6 that whatever you received — whatever
7 privilege as to communications with those who 7 information you received from your laws
8 represented you. Please dont disclose that. 8 played a small role. That's what you testified
9 MR. SCAROLA: Respectfully — pardon me — 9 to.
10 the witness is the possessor of that privilege. 10 THE WITNESS: That's right.
11 He cannot make a statement disclosing the 11 SPECIAL MASTER PUELUOLI: Correctly.
12 content of the communications that he is 12 Mr. Edwards then followed up on that question
13 relying on and then he himself assert a 13 and said. let's go into that small role.
14 privilege to refuse to provide further 14 THE WITNESS: Okay.
15 information with regard to the statement that 15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: So row...
16 he has made. We would request a ruling on the 16 BY MR. EI)WARI)S:
17 record as to whether there has already been a 17 Q. What arc the names of those people that
18 waiver. 18 gave you this information that played a small role
19 A. What I said, of course. was that— 19 in --
20 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Excuse me. Hang 20 A. In what?
21 on a second. 21 Q. -- in your belief that Brad Edwards had
22 MR. SCAROLA: %Vete requesting a oiling on 22 participated in a major fraud with Rothstein which
23 the record as to whether there has been a 23 somehow furthered your belief that Brad Edwards and
24 waiver as a consequence of what has already 24 Paul Cassell fabricated the allegations against you?
25 been stated. 25 So I'm asking for names of the people.
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1 A. So my best recollection, and its now over 1 came over to me and told me -- he may have given me
2 a year. is that that was a subject of conversation 2 a card. which I conceivably may have at home. told
3 with David Markus. It was also the subject of 3 me that he was a former official of the Florida Bar
4 conversation with — 4 and was outraged at what had happened and told rte to
5 MS. McCAWLEY: Fm sorry. I didn't hear 5 please look into your background and then told me
6 that. If he's talking about conversations -- 6 about your background.
7 MR. EDWARDS: lie said Davis Markus. 7 Q. Dade Markus, Is he a former student f
8 MS. McCAWLEY: Fm sorry. I couldn't 8 yours?
9 hear. 9 A. Yes, yes.
10 A. Another lawyer -- other people sent me 10 Q. Did he have anything to do with the
11 newspaper clippings. 11 investigation into the -- Scott Rothstein or any of
12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No. no. no. 12 that?
13 A. Lawyer. Okay. The other lawyer who told 13 A. I don't know.
14 me about that was a lawyer named David Efron. 14 Q. David Efron. did he have any inside
15 MR. SCAROLA: First of all. make sure the 15 personal information into who was or who was not
16 list is complete. and then you want to know 16 culpable in any aspect of the fraud with Scott
17 everyone. 17 Rothstein?
18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. Is that It? David Markus, David Efron? 19 MR. SCAROLA: You want to know exactly
20 A. Those are the two I remember offhand. 20 what they said.
21 Plus. as I said. when I spoke -- I spoke 21 BY MR. EDWARDS:
22 at several events in January — 22 Q. Before we go to the next statement that
23 Q. Right now -- 23 apparently formed your basis for believing that
24 A. — and lawyers came -- people -- 24 Brad Edwards and Paul Cassell fabricated the
25 lawyers — 25 allegations against you. can you tell me exactly
678 680
1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let me stop you. 1 word for word as you remember it what David Markus
2 BY MR. EDWARDS: 2 and then what David Efron told you —
3 Q. Let me get to the next question. 3 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let's start with
4 A. Yes. 4 the first one.
5 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let me ask the 5 BY MR. EDWARDS:
6 witness, the question is limited to — 6 Q. -- what David Markus told you about the
7 MR. EDWARDS: Yes, the lawyers who played 7 participation of Brad Edwards in a fraud with
8 a small role. 8 Rothstein?
9 SPECIAL MAMMA POZZUOLI: The small role 9 MR. SINIPSON: We assert privilege to the
10 around the lawyers, and I think the followup 10 extent that it's someone who he was getting
11 question was, you've mentioned a second lawyer. 11 legal advice from.
12 is there anybody else on that list? 12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'm going to
13 BY MR. EDWARDS: 13 allow the question. You can answer over
14 Q. Yes. 14 objection.
15 A. Two lawyers. yes. The lawyers who came is A. Atli can tell you is what the total
16 over to me at the events that I spoke at. 16 information I had at that point. I can't now, as I
17 Q. 14'hat are their names? 17 sit here, separate out what Markus said, what Efron
18 A. 1don't know. 18 said. what the lawyers who I met at the events said.
19 Q. How do you know that they're lawyers? 19 I can give you a totality of what the conclusion was
20 A. Because it was a lawyers' event. And they 20 that was reached. Each of themcontributed
21 were trial lawyers. This was all trial lawyers at 21 something.
22 the event. Florida trial lawyers. 22 BY MR. EDWARDS:
23 Q. You don't have the names of any of them: 23 Q. Where were you when you received this
24 is that right? 24 communication from David Markus about his
25 A. I can describe one of them as somebody who 25 understanding or belief that Brad Edwards
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1 participated in a major fraud with Rothstein? 1 the generalities. but I don't remember the
2 A. In my apanntent. I suspect. 2 particulars of that. I would be happy to try to
3 Q. Do you remember 11th? 3 refresh my recollection.
4 A. 1remember being in my apartment when the 4 MR_ SCAROLA: Were going to take a short
9 story broke and getting call after call after call 5 break.
6 from lawyers. 6 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record. The
7 Q. Was this a telephone call with David 7 time is 9:38 a.m.
8 Markus — 8 (Recess was held from 9:38 a.m. until 9:45 am.)
9 A. Probably. 9
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SEVENTEENTH JUDICIAL
CIRCUIT IN AND FOR BROWARD COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO.: CACE 15-000072
BRADLEY J. EDWARDS and PAUL G.
CASSELL,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ,
Defendant.
VIDEOTAPE CONTINUED DEPOSITION OF
ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ
VOLUME 5
Pages 648 through 781
Wednesday, January 13, 2016
9:04 a.m. - 11:59 a.m.
Tripp Scott
110 Southeast 6th Street
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
Stenographically Reported By:
Kimberly Fontalvo, RPR, CLR
Realtime Systems Administrator
www.phippsreporting.com
(888)811-3408
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649 651
1 APPEARANCES: 1 INDEX
2 2
On behalf of Plaintiffs:
3 3
SEARCY. DENNEY. SCAROLA Examination Page
4 BARNHART & SHIPLEY. P.A. 4
2139 Palm Beach Lakes Boulevard
s West Palm Beach. Florida 33402-3626 5 VOLUME 5 (Pages 648 - 781)
BY: JACK SCAROLA. ESQ. 6
6 jsx esearcyhw.com 7 Certificate of Oath 778
7
a On behalf of Defendant: Certificate of Reporter 779
9 COLE. SCOTT & KISSANE. P.A. 8 Read and Sign Letter to Witness 780
Dadeland Centre II - Suite 1400 Errata Sheet (forwarded upon execution) 781
10 9150 South Dadeland Boulevard
9
Miami. Herida 33156
11 BY: THOMAS EMERSON SCOTT. JR.. ESQ. 10 PLAINTIFF EXHIBITS
thotnas.scou6ksklegal.com 11
12 BY: STEVEN SAFRA. ESQ. (Via phone)
steven.safranieskkgalcom 12 No. Page
13 -and- 13 25 Transcript from Don Lemon Interview 689
14 SWEDER & ROSS. 112 14
Ill Oliver Street 15
15 Boston. MA 02110
BY: KENNETH k SWEDER. ESQ. 16
16 kswederesweder-ross.com 17
17 -and-
18 18
WILEY. REIN
17769 K Suet, NW 19
19 Washington. DC 20006 20
BY: RICHARD A. SIMPSON. ESQ. 21
20 RSimpson6wilepein.com
21 22
22 23
23
24 24
25 25
650 652
1 APPEARANCES (Continued): 1 Thereupon. the proceedings continued at 9:04 a.m.
2 2 VIDEOGRAPHER: Are now on the video
3 On behalf of Jeffrey Epstein: 3 record. This is the 13th day of January. 2016.
4 DARREN K. INDYKE. PLLC 4 The time is 9:04 am. This is the videotaped
575 Lexington Ave.. 4th Fl.
5 deposition of Alan Dershowitz in the matter of
5 New York, New York
BY: DARREN K. INDYKE, ESQ. (Via phone) 6 Bradley Edwards and Paul Cassell versus Alan
6 7 Dershowitz.
7 On behalf of 8 My name is Marcy Martinez_ I am the
8 BOLES. SCHILLER & FLEXNER, LLP 9 videographer representing Above & Beyond
401 E. Las Olas Blvd_ Ste. 1200 10 Reprographics. Will the attorneys please
9 Fat Lauderdale. Florida 33301
11 announce their appearances for the record.
BY: SIGRID STONE MCCAWLEY, ESQ.
10 [email protected] 12 MR. EDWARDS: Sure. On behalf of the
11 13 plaintiff today Brad Edwards. Jack Scarola
12 ALSO PRESENT: 19 Brittany Henderson and Paul Cassell.
13 Edward I. P012U011. Special Master 15 MR. SIMPSON: On behalf of the defendant
14 Sean D. Reyes. Utah Attorney General Office 16 and the witness. Richard Simpson. and Thomas
15 Marcy Martinez. Videographer
16 17 Scott will be joining. He just walked in.
17 18 MS. McCAWLEY: On behalf of nonparty
18 19 Sigrid McCawley and my
19 20 colleague Meredith Schultz from Boles. Schiller
20 21 & Plexner.
21
22 MR. INDYKE: On behalf of Jeffrey Epstein.
22
23 23 Darren Indyke.
24 24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Ed Ponuoli as
25 25 the special master.
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1 MR. SIMPSON: Is there anyone else on the 1 And I knew, of course, that I had never
2 phone? 2 met -- had no contact with I knew
3 MR. MAISEL: Yeah, this is Nicholas 3 that she was lying. I read her deposition. and as
9 Maisel. 9 an experienced lawyer with 50 years of experience,
5 THE COURT REPORTER: Would you raise your 5 it was absolutely clear to me that no lay person
6 right hand. please? 6 with her lack of education could have written that
7 Do you swear or affirm that the testimony 7 deposition.
8 you are about to give will be the truth, the 8 I sought the advice of friends and others
9 whole truth, and nothing but the truth? 9 with experience who confirmed the view that that
10 THE WITNESS: I do. 10 affidavit clearly had to have been written by
11 MR. SCAROLA: Nick would you announce the 11 lawyers and certainly drafted by lawyers: the level
12 capacity in which you're appearing, please. 12 of detail, the structure of the sentences, all of
13 MR. MAISEL: Special research assistant 13 which led me conclusively to the belief that the
14 for Alan Dershowitz, 14 lawyers had written this affidavit.
15 MR. SCAROLA: Thank you. 15 I suspected from the very beginning that
16 MR. EDWARDS: Are we ready? 16 this was part of an extortion plot in order to
17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Go ahead. 17 obtain money. I later learned many. many. many
18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 18 facts.
19 Q. Mr. Dershowitx, in January of 2015. when 19 MR. EDWARDS: I object and move to strike
20 you made the statements that Paul Cassell unit Brad 20 as nonresponsive and that the question calls
21 Edwards participated in the fabricating of the 21 for information in his possession in January of
22 allegations that were made against you, what 22 2015. I would ask for a ruling on that.
23 information or evidence did you have in your 23 A. I'm providing that. but I'm giving the
24 possession at that time to support those statements? 29 context.
25 MR. SIMPSON: Object to the form as overly 25 SPECIAL MASTER P0ZZUOLI: Denied. Move
654 656
1 general. You may answer. 1 forward.
2 A. As soon as the allegations were made 2 A. Okay. I knew that there was a financial
3 against me. I received a series of phone calls and 3 motivation here. I also knew that Cassell and
4 people approached me at various events and they 4 Edwards had lied when the said they were
5 warned me about the reputation of Bradley Edwards. 5 representing in a pro bono basis.
6 They told me that he had, in their view. 6 I had been informed repeatedly that they
7 participated in a major fraud with a man named 7 were in it for the money and that they expected to
8 Rothstein. that he should be in jail for the 8 earn a lot of money from representing her and others
9 Rothstein events. 9 in this case and that they pretended to be pro bono
10 I received a phone call saying that he had 10 lawyers when they were, in fact. money-grubbing.
11 fabricated evidence when he was a plos,utor and 11 money-hungry lawyers who had earned a very
12 that he had knowingly failed to investigate police 12 substantial amount of money already on these cases
13 fabrication of evidence in a case. Generally was 13 and were expecting to earn mom money.
19 warned about the terrible reputation that 14 Let me think of what other information I
15 Mr. Edwards had. 15 had.
16 I also received phone calls telling me 16 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: At the time of
17 that Mr. Cassell was a zealot, that he had used me 17 the question.
18 in class as a whipping — as a kind of an object of 18 A. At the time of my statements, right.
19 hate and painted me as a liberal supporter of the 19 It's just inconceivable to me that this
20 exclusionary rule and opponent of the death penalty. 20 uneducated woman could have come up with this story
21 and that he had no concern for the truth when it 21 on her own.
22 came to his zealotry on behalf of alleged victims. 22 I understood the motives of the lawyers.
23 The calls were just -- the people who told 23 and I was convinced, therefore, it was my opinion
29 me this were just -- there were so many of them that 24 based on my experience, in fact. that she could not
25 it was amazing to me. 25 have done this by herself and that she had to have
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1 worked in coordination with her lawyers. 1 no. no. no. Na Respond to the question that
2 Her lawyers were also at that point 2 was answered and go ahead because I haven't
3 claiming that the story should be believed because 3 heard any objection yet.
4 of who they were. Mr. Cassell. in my view. 4 MR. EDWARDS: I'm objecting to all of this
5 unethically signed his pleading with the University 5 as being nonresponsive to the question.
6 of Utah imprimatur. suggesting that he was a State 6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Is there
7 actor. suggesting that he acted an behalf of his 7 anything else that you would like to add to the
8 university, something I would never do and I've 8 answer?
9 stopped clients from doing. When I represent 9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 people. I represent them on my own behalf. not on 10 A. When the newspapers called me. they all
11 behalf of any university. 11 asked me the following question --
12 The very fact that the Attorney General of 12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Was this in
13 Utah was here yesterday indicates that he may very 13 January?
14 well be a State actor and subject to the rules of 14 A. This was in January.
15 State action rather than individual action. 15 BY MR. EDWARDS:
16 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That portion I 16 Q. The question on the table Is —
17 will strike. That sentence. 17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on one
18 A. Sony. 18 second.
19 BY MR. EDWARDS: 19 A. I'm going to tell you.
20 Q. Okay. 20 MR. EDWARDS: What information that
21 A. Tm not finished. 21 Mr. Dershowitz had in January 4.2015. when he
22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Is there any 22 made the statement that Paul Cassell and Brad
23 other information that you haven't touched 23 Edwards fabricated the allegations against him.
24 on — 24 MR. SIMPSON: The question was about in
25 THE WITNESS: I'm (tying to— 25 January of 2015.
658 660
1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: -- as of. what. 1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That's what it
2 January? 2 was. That was the original question. which is
3 MR. EDWARDS: January of 2015. 3 why he was afforded a tremendous amount of
4 THE WITNESS: Oh. yes. 4 latitude.
5 MR. SCAROLA: January 4. 5 MR. EDWARDS: Understood.
6 MR. EDWARDS: January 4.2015. 6 A. And I got continuing information all
7 A. Okay. that's the question. But. of 7 through January and amended my statements as
8 course. I made a sales of statements that continued 8 consistent with the information that I ga.
9 beyond January 4. and they always took into account 9 The newspapers called me. They all said
10 new developments and new information that I had. 10 to me. why would anybody make a false allegation if
11 I was also aware that Mr. Cassell was 11 he's a former Federal judge. if he's a professor. if
12 promoting himself as a former federal judge and 12 he's a distinguished trial lawyer?
13 using his status and imprimatur in a false effort to 13 Clearly the -- on the 4th of December.
14 try to add credibility to the story. 14 talking about that day. that's the day on which
15 And I did not make -- this is very 15 Mr. Cassell wrote to ABC —
16 important to this. I did not make a single call to 16 BY MR. EDWARDS:
17 a single newspaper or single television station. to 17 Q. January.
18 my knowledge. or a single newspaper. I was 18 A. January 4. 2015. that's the date on which
19 constantly responding. 19 Mr. Cassell wrote to ABC News asking them to
20 MR. SCAROLA: That's not responsive. 20 publicize his client's story and to — and again
21 A. Excuse me. In the last deposition -- 21 making it clear to ABC who he was and what he -- and
22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No. no. 22 who he had been and what offices he had held.
23 A. -- there was an interruption by 23 And so it was clear to me at that point.
24 Mr. Scarola that I want to put on the record. 24 and through January it became clearer and clearer
25 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No. no. no. no. 25 that she could not have done this on her own, that
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1 she had to have sat with her lawyers and concocted 1 MR. EDWARDS: Affidavit.
2 this story. added the kind of detail to the story 2 A. — if I hadn't seen it at that point. I
3 that would make a lie seem plausible and credible. 3 don't remember the exact day when her affidavit came
4 And I think that any reasonable lawyer reading that 4 in. I referred obviously to the pleadings. That
5 affidavit would have come to exactly the same 5 was the allegation, the allegation in the pleadings.
6 conclusion that I came to. 6 So if I said that you and Cassell sat and
7 SPECIAL MASTER P0ZZUOL1: Okay. 7 helped her make it up. it was based on -- at that
8 BY MR. EDWARDS: B point in time, based on you and her. primarily you
9 Q. Mr. Dershowitz, when you first made the 9 and Cassell. because she didn't submit -- it wasn't
10 statement on January 4..2015 that Mr. Cassell and 10 an affidavit at that point.
11 Brad Edwards had participated in the fabrication of 11 It was your words. you. that were accusing
12 these allegations. did you have before you any 12 me of these heinous crimes without any basis. So I
13 affidavit or, as you have repeatedly called it, 13 surely had a basis on January 4th of attributing it
14 deposition of 14 to you because it was your signature on the —
15 MR. SIMPSON: Object to the form. It's 15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hold on a
16 referring to a specific statement that has not 16 second. So I understand. the question is what
17 been identified for the witness. 17 did you have on January 4th —
18 A. Affidavit of ' What I had 18 MR. EDWARDS: -- 2015 to support that
19 was the lawyers statements that were included in 19 statement.
20 the Complaint, which they then sought to publicize 20 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Just answer that
21 all around the world and got more than a thousand 21 question first and then you can explain. but —
22 newspapers to cover the story. every television 22 A. With due respect. Your Honor. I think the
23 station in the world. every radio station virtually 23 question was, did you have the affidavit in front of
24 in the world. based on what they themselves had 24 you.
25 written. actually gives me even a greater basis. 25
662
1 because it wasn't at that point based on her 1 BY MR. EDWARD$:
2 affidavit, it was based on what the lawyers had 2 Q. Right. Okay. Did you have the affidavit
3 said. 3 or deposition of on that day?
4 MR. EDWARDS: I object. Can I have the 4 A. To my recollection. I did not. 1had only
5 question read back. I'm lost as to what the 5 your characterization of the accusation which you
6 question is anymore. 6 were making against me.
7 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Ask — reread 7 Q. And in your experience as an attorney,
8 the question. 8 isn't it common knowledge that attorneys drafting
9 COURT REPORTER: 'Mr. Dershowitz. when you 9 complaints or pleadings take the word of the client
10 first made the statement on January 4. 2015 10 to form the basis of that Complaint or pleading?
11 that Mr. Cassell and Brad Edwards had 11 A. No. it's not common knowledge. It's
12 participated in the fabrication of these 12 common knowledge that unethical lawyers of the kind
13 allegations. did you have before you any 13 that your reputation told me you were help the
14 affidavit or. as you have repeatedly called it. 14 clients —
15 deposition of r 15 MR. EDWARDS: I object. Move to strike as
16 BY MR. EDWARDS: 16 nonresponsive.
17 Q. Did you? 17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That. I am going
18 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: So that's the 18 to strike. Try -- try to answer the question.
19 question. Answer that question only. 19 A. But I think the generic answer is ethical
20 MR. SCAROLA: Move to strike everything 20 lawyers — let me put it this way. ethical lawyers
21 else he's said. 21 should not elaborate on what a client tells them in
22 A. On January 4th. to my memory. I did not 22 an affidavit.
23 refer to a deposition or to whatever other word you 23 In my experience. there's a continuum.
24 used -- what was the word? 24 Many. many lawyers. when they see a statement by a
25 MR. SIMPSON: Affidavit. 25 client they'll say. no. no. no. no. could you
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1 please elaborate on that. You say you had sex with 1 MR. INDYKE: Instruct Alan not to answer
2 him. Was it one time? Was it two times? Could it 2 to the extent it would disclose communications
3 have been six times? Could it have been on the 3 of who made those —
4 airplane? Could it have been -- et cetera. 4 SPECIAL MASTER PO'CLUOLI: Objection noted.
5 So I think it's a continuum of the way S You can answer it.
6 lawyers work with clients. The most ethical lawyers 6 A. What framework are you giving me in terms
7 don't change what a client says. They word for word 7 of time?
8 repeat what the client says. 8 SPECIAL MASTER PO'CLUOLI: In January.
9 The most unethical lawyers will put all of 9 BY MR. EDWARDS:
10 their own thoughts. words. ideas if it strengthens 10 Q. You told me that before you made these
11 their position and strengthens their case. 11 statements. one of the things that you had in your
12 From what I had been -- from the 12 possesskm was a series of phone calls. "a bunch of
13 information I knew at that time. I put you on the 13 people called me" —
14 extreme unethical end of the continuum. 14 A. That is right. That's true.
15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That wasn't the 15 Q. -- "and told me Brad Edwards participated
16 question. so I will strike the last sentence. 16 in major fraud with Rothstein." That's the first
17 We need to get focused on answering the 17 question I want answered. What are the names of
18 question. so please try to do that. 18 those people?
19 A. Okay. I will do that. 19 A. A number of them who called me were ones
20 BY MR. EDWARDS: 20 who volunteered —
21 Q. When you first made the statements that 21 MR. SCAROLA: That's not a response to the
22 Paul Cassell and Brad Edwards fabricated the 22 question.
23 allegations — 23 BY MR. EDWARDS:
24 A. Would you read me the statement that you 24 Q. What are the names?
25 say I made on January 4th so I can understand what 25 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Stop. stop.
666 668
1 rem saying? 1 please. please. please.
2 Q. Do you deny making the statement that Brad 2 A. I'm invoicing the privilege, if you would
3 Edwards and Paul Cassell fabricated the allegations 3 allow me. please. A number of those who called me
4 against you? 4 called me in tandem to volunteer to be my lawyer.
5 A. I remember making a series of statements 5 I'll give you an example.
6 over time. I do not remember what I said on 6 SPECIAL MASTER PUELUOLI: No. no. hang on.
7 January 4th. In order to ask me what I had at the 7 A. I can't name this person because he called
8 time I made the statement. I need to know with 8 to give me legal advice. and I — he gave me that
9 precision the exact statement you are referring to 9 information as pan of his legal advice.
10 and the exact date. I think that's a fair request. 10 BY MR. EDWARDS:
11 Q. We'll get that for you. It would be 11 Q. I'm not asking if one of the lawyers who
12 easier had you made less statements, but we'll sift 12 represented you and you have an attorney-client
13 through them. 13 privilege with has shared with you some information
14 A. If would be easier if you had called -- 14 that they believe to he the case.
15 MR. SIMPSON: There's no question. Object 15 I'm asking if you are using as support for
16 to the sidebar comments. 16 your statement that certain people told you and you
17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Yes, let's -- 17 relied upon this -- and the particular "this" at
18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 18 this point is that Brad Edward participated in a
19 Q. What are the names -- please list for me 19 major fraud with Scott Rothstein -- I want to know
20 all of the names of the people who told you that -- 20 the names of those people that you are relying upon
21 in quotes -- Brad Edwards was -- participated in a 21 to test veracity of that statement, please. Names
22 major fraud with Rothstein. Names of people. 22 of people.
23 MR. INDYKE: Objection based upon 23 A. One of the names was of a person who I was
24 attorney-client, work product. common interest. 24 seeking legal representation from. and it was pan
25 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Well, okay. 25 of my conversation with him regarding legal
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1 representation. 1 MR. INDYKE: Sane objection. same
2 MR. SCAROLA: That's not a name. 2 instruction.
3 MR. EDWARDS: I'm sorry. I object and I 3 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: He's —
4 ask — 4 MR. EDWARDS: Calls for a yes or no.
5 A. If I give you the name — S SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: He's only asked
6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I do think you 6 if you aware that the case was dismissed at
7 have to give the name. 7 that time.
8 A. Okay. The name of that person would be 8 A. I don't think I was. But a case being
9 David Markus. 9 dismissed does not mean the allegation isn't true.
10 BY MR. EDWARDS: 10 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: 1understand.
11 Q. Okay. 11 but --
12 A. And he told me to check the docket -- 12 BY MR. EDWARDS:
13 MR. SIMPSON: Just the question. 13 Q. Okay. In addition to David Markus, can
14 BY MR. EDWARDS: 14 you please complete this list of people that you
15 Q. When did David Markus call you to tell you 15 testified called you to tell you specifically that
16 that he knew or believed that Brad Edwards 16 Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud with
17 participated in a major fraud with Rothstein? 17 Rothstein?
18 A. Within days. Within probably a day or 18 A. So, I spoke several times during that
19 two. 19 period of time at various events. And people • -
20 Q. Did he tell you what it was that formed 20 lawyers came over to me and told me --
21 the basis for that statement that he made to you 21 Q. I'm not asking where. Who? What are the
22 that you so relied upon? 22 names?
23 A. I don't recall. 23 A. I can tell you one of them --
24 Q. Was it more than the fact that your 24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: He's trying to
25 client, Jeffrey Epstein. had filed a lawsuit making 25 be -- I would allow him to answer it. He's
670 672
1 those allegations? 1 trying to be responsive to the question.
2 A. I don't think he was aware that Jeffrey 2 Please proceed.
3 Epstein had nude an allegation of that kind. 3 A. One of them was a Conner president or
4 Q. At the time when David Markus called you 4 chairman or at least member of the Florida Bar
5 to tell you that Brad Edwards participated in a 5 committee who warned me about you.
6 major fraud with Rothstein did you already — 6 BY MR. EDWARDS:
7 A. That's not — 7 Q. Does he have a name?
9 Q. -- have or know that Scott Rothstein had 8 A. I dont remember his name. I don't
9 testified under oath about that specific subject 9 remember his name. no. Of course he has a name, but
10 matter? 10 I don't remember his name.
11. A. Well. I cant imagine that mite relying 11 Another was — I mean — just hard to
12 on Scott Rothstein's credibility. 12 pinpoint names. but it was something that was
13 Q. I'm asking, did you know? 13 clearly in my mind that so many people were telling
14 MR. SIMPSON: Just answer the question. 14 me -- telling me to look into the case of Rothstein.
15 BY MR. EDWARDS: 15 telling me that you were his protege.
16 Q. Yes or no? 16 Q. Okay. Is it true, then, that you have the
11 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOU: Did you know? 17 name of one person who you can identify told you
18 A. I did not know. 18 that Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud with
19 BY MR. EDWARDS: 19 Rothstein?
20 Q. Did you know at that point in time that 20 A. I was also aware, of course. of the
21 the Complaint that was tiled by your client. Jeffrey 21 Complaint that had been filed against you. And that
22 Epstein. against Brad Edwards. making those exact 22 was one — I mean, I cant comment on that because
n allegations, had been dismissed at the stage -- at 23 of lawyer-client privilege.
24 the point in time when David Markus was making these 24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Listen to the
25 statements to you that you so relied upon? 25 question, Professor. Go ahead.
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1 BY MR. EDWARDS: 1 MR. SIMPSON: He did not testify that
2 Q. Is it now your testimony that you can only 2 he — we went through long questions and
3 provide me with one name of one human being that 3 answers in response to Mr. Edwards' questions.
4 called you and told you Brad Edwards participated in 4 He did not say he was relying on what his
5 a major fraud with Rothstein? 5 lawyers told him in this case.
6 A. 1 will try to think of others. 6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I think that
7 Probably -- I may have some notes of others. I will 7 there is — let me say this: I think the
8 call around and find out whether my memory is 8 question was from Mr. Edwards whether he relied
9 correct or not. 9 on statements from his lawyers. I do think
10 MR. SIMPSON: Professor -- 10 that you have to answer that question.
11 A. But I don't want to mention names without 11 A. I would say that the statements from my
12 being sure. 12 lawyers played a small role. The larger role --
13 MR. SIMPSON: Just do you recall, as you 13 BY MR. EDWARDS:
14 sit here, the names? 14 Q. I want to know about that small role.
15 A. And right now. I don't recall names. other 15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on one
16 than a general discussion with my lawyers. And in 16 second. So now proceed.
17 the general discussion with my lawyers -- and I 17 BY MR. EDWARDS:
18 don't want to get into it -- 18 Q. Sure. I would like to know whose
19 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Then don't do 19 statements it was that played a small role in your
20 it. 20 belief that Brad Edwards fabricated cases based on
21 BY MR. EDWARDS: 21 the statements that they made to you that
22 Q. Are you relying upon the statements from 22 Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud with
23 your lawyers to support this allegation that the 23 Rothstein. What arc the name of those individuals?
24 basis of your statement that Brad Edwards 24 A. It's a complicated question here. So
25 participated in the fabrication of the allegations 25 there are three issues that I understand. One, what
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1 against you was a list of people told you 1 was the basis for my belief that you had fabricated
2 Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud with 2 along with Mr. Cassell --
3 Rothstein: and, if so. I want to know the names of 3 Q. No, I'm asking for names of human beings.
4 those lawyers that you are using to support that 4 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No. let me stop
S allegation? 5 you. My understanding of your testimony was
6 SIR. SIMPSON: Well, we have asserted 6 that whatever you received — whatever
7 privilege as to communications with those who 7 information you received from your laws
8 represented you. Please dont disclose that. 8 played a small role. That's what you testified
9 MR. SCAROLA: Respectfully — pardon me — 9 to.
10 the witness is the possessor of that privilege. 10 THE WITNESS: That's right.
11 He cannot make a statement disclosing the 11 SPECIAL MASTER PUELUOLI: Correctly.
12 content of the communications that he is 12 Mr. Edwards then followed up on that question
13 relying on and then he himself assert a 13 and said. let's go into that small role.
14 privilege to refuse to provide further 14 THE WITNESS: Okay.
15 information with regard to the statement that 15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: So row...
16 he has made. We would request a ruling on the 16 BY MR. EI)WARI)S:
17 record as to whether there has already been a 17 Q. What arc the names of those people that
18 waiver. 18 gave you this information that played a small role
19 A. What I said, of course. was that— 19 in --
20 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Excuse me. Hang 20 A. In what?
21 on a second. 21 Q. -- in your belief that Brad Edwards had
22 MR. SCAROLA: %Vete requesting a oiling on 22 participated in a major fraud with Rothstein which
23 the record as to whether there has been a 23 somehow furthered your belief that Brad Edwards and
24 waiver as a consequence of what has already 24 Paul Cassell fabricated the allegations against you?
25 been stated. 25 So I'm asking for names of the people.
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1 A. So my best recollection, and its now over 1 came over to me and told me -- he may have given me
2 a year. is that that was a subject of conversation 2 a card. which I conceivably may have at home. told
3 with David Markus. It was also the subject of 3 me that he was a former official of the Florida Bar
4 conversation with — 4 and was outraged at what had happened and told rte to
5 MS. McCAWLEY: Fm sorry. I didn't hear 5 please look into your background and then told me
6 that. If he's talking about conversations -- 6 about your background.
7 MR. EDWARDS: lie said Davis Markus. 7 Q. Dade Markus, Is he a former student f
8 MS. McCAWLEY: Fm sorry. I couldn't 8 yours?
9 hear. 9 A. Yes, yes.
10 A. Another lawyer -- other people sent me 10 Q. Did he have anything to do with the
11 newspaper clippings. 11 investigation into the -- Scott Rothstein or any of
12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No. no. no. 12 that?
13 A. Lawyer. Okay. The other lawyer who told 13 A. I don't know.
14 me about that was a lawyer named David Efron. 14 Q. David Efron. did he have any inside
15 MR. SCAROLA: First of all. make sure the 15 personal information into who was or who was not
16 list is complete. and then you want to know 16 culpable in any aspect of the fraud with Scott
17 everyone. 17 Rothstein?
18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. Is that It? David Markus, David Efron? 19 MR. SCAROLA: You want to know exactly
20 A. Those are the two I remember offhand. 20 what they said.
21 Plus. as I said. when I spoke -- I spoke 21 BY MR. EDWARDS:
22 at several events in January — 22 Q. Before we go to the next statement that
23 Q. Right now -- 23 apparently formed your basis for believing that
24 A. — and lawyers came -- people -- 24 Brad Edwards and Paul Cassell fabricated the
25 lawyers — 25 allegations against you. can you tell me exactly
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1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let me stop you. 1 word for word as you remember it what David Markus
2 BY MR. EDWARDS: 2 and then what David Efron told you —
3 Q. Let me get to the next question. 3 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let's start with
4 A. Yes. 4 the first one.
5 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let me ask the 5 BY MR. EDWARDS:
6 witness, the question is limited to — 6 Q. -- what David Markus told you about the
7 MR. EDWARDS: Yes, the lawyers who played 7 participation of Brad Edwards in a fraud with
8 a small role. 8 Rothstein?
9 SPECIAL MAMMA POZZUOLI: The small role 9 MR. SINIPSON: We assert privilege to the
10 around the lawyers, and I think the followup 10 extent that it's someone who he was getting
11 question was, you've mentioned a second lawyer. 11 legal advice from.
12 is there anybody else on that list? 12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'm going to
13 BY MR. EDWARDS: 13 allow the question. You can answer over
14 Q. Yes. 14 objection.
15 A. Two lawyers. yes. The lawyers who came is A. Atli can tell you is what the total
16 over to me at the events that I spoke at. 16 information I had at that point. I can't now, as I
17 Q. 14'hat are their names? 17 sit here, separate out what Markus said, what Efron
18 A. 1don't know. 18 said. what the lawyers who I met at the events said.
19 Q. How do you know that they're lawyers? 19 I can give you a totality of what the conclusion was
20 A. Because it was a lawyers' event. And they 20 that was reached. Each of themcontributed
21 were trial lawyers. This was all trial lawyers at 21 something.
22 the event. Florida trial lawyers. 22 BY MR. EDWARDS:
23 Q. You don't have the names of any of them: 23 Q. Where were you when you received this
24 is that right? 24 communication from David Markus about his
25 A. I can describe one of them as somebody who 25 understanding or belief that Brad Edwards
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1 participated in a major fraud with Rothstein? 1 the generalities. but I don't remember the
2 A. In my apanntent. I suspect. 2 particulars of that. I would be happy to try to
3 Q. Do you remember 11th? 3 refresh my recollection.
4 A. 1remember being in my apartment when the 4 MR_ SCAROLA: Were going to take a short
9 story broke and getting call after call after call 5 break.
6 from lawyers. 6 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record. The
7 Q. Was this a telephone call with David 7 time is 9:38 a.m.
8 Markus — 8 (Recess was held from 9:38 a.m. until 9:45 am.)
9 A. Probably. 9