Charlie Kirk Debates Students on Immigration, Abortion, & the Power of Conversation | UC San Diego

[00:00:00] I have um I have a couple points that I [00:00:02] want to talk about in illegal [00:00:04] immigration. Um is it okay if I write if [00:00:07] I say all of them with no interruption? [00:00:09] Okay, cool. So, first, illegal [00:00:12] immigrants power our economy. They're [00:00:14] 50% of US farm workers harvesting the [00:00:16] food on our tables and fill 70% of [00:00:18] construction jobs in states like Texas. [00:00:21] They pay 13 billion annually in taxes, [00:00:23] including 2 billion to Social Security [00:00:25] that they can't claim. Deporting them [00:00:27] would slash agriculture output by 60 [00:00:29] billion and raise food prices by 6%. [00:00:33] Why gut our farms and wallets when these [00:00:36] workers fuel our prosperity? That's my [00:00:38] first point. Second point, they [00:00:39] strengthen our communities with lower [00:00:41] crime rates. So in Texas, undocumented [00:00:44] undocumented immigrants have a 26 lower [00:00:46] percent homicide conviction rates. So [00:00:50] which is 2.2 per 100,000 versus three [00:00:53] for nativeorn citizens. Nationally, [00:00:55] immigrants are incarcerated at half the [00:00:57] rate of native born where it's 85% [00:01:00] versus 1.7 [00:01:03] 1%. Uh that's according to Bureau of [00:01:05] Justice Statistics from 2019. So if [00:01:08] safety is your goal, why deport people [00:01:10] who make our streets safer? This is my [00:01:12] third point. Uh mass deportation tears [00:01:15] apart American families. Over 4.4 4 [00:01:17] million US citizens uh children have an [00:01:20] undocumented parent and in Texas one in [00:01:23] seven kids lives in a mixed status [00:01:25] household. Um okay this is my fourth [00:01:28] point. Deportation is a fiscal [00:01:30] nightmare. Removing 11 million people [00:01:33] would cost 315 to 400 billion more than [00:01:37] the entire homeland security budget and [00:01:39] shrink our GDP by 1.7 trillion over 10 [00:01:42] years. And um this is my last point. Our [00:01:47] immigration system is broken, pushing [00:01:50] people to cross illegally. Visa waits [00:01:52] Mexicans can exceed 20 years and the [00:01:54] asylum blockage is 1.3 million cases [00:01:57] with hearings four to 6 years out. Uh, [00:02:00] okay. [00:02:01] >> You done? [00:02:02] >> That's pretty much it. Yeah. Yeah. [00:02:04] >> All right. So, without looking at the [00:02:05] phone, look at me. What should the [00:02:06] penalty be for breaking into America? [00:02:08] >> I think there should be a system where [00:02:10] it's more merit-based. So, if this [00:02:11] person [00:02:11] >> No penalty. So, what is the penalty? So, [00:02:13] what what what should happen? [00:02:14] >> It's a f It's not a penalty. It's a mis [00:02:17] that's not true. It's 8 USC 1312. You [00:02:18] can look it up right now. [00:02:19] >> It's a felony if it's done twice. [00:02:22] That is correct. That is not correct. I [00:02:23] Googled it, dude. To illegally go across [00:02:25] the southern border with the well intent [00:02:26] to come into harbor yourself into the [00:02:28] interior of the United States to [00:02:29] violation of 8 USC 1312, which is a [00:02:31] felony in the federal criminal code. [00:02:32] Now, it can be enforced as a misdemeanor [00:02:34] or it can be upwards to 5 years in [00:02:36] prison. Now, I want to know since it's a [00:02:38] felony, law on the books, 8 USC 1312, [00:02:40] what should the penalty be? Um well, [00:02:45] in my opinion, these kinds of like um [00:02:47] laws are not are are usually they're [00:02:50] they're [00:02:52] um what do you call it? They're um [00:02:56] sorry. [00:02:59] >> Usually the the the like the the [00:03:02] sorry [00:03:05] >> um wait, sorry. Can I can I choke my [00:03:07] phone real quick? I apologize. [00:03:09] [cheering] [00:03:12] Can you can you repeat the the question? [00:03:14] Sorry. [00:03:16] >> What should the penalty be? [00:03:17] >> Penalty be [00:03:18] >> for someone that breaks or comes into [00:03:21] America illegally? What should the [00:03:22] penalty be? [00:03:23] >> I think there should be a a merit system [00:03:25] where the people Okay, the penalty. All [00:03:26] right, let's [00:03:27] >> that's not the answer. It's a very [00:03:28] simple moral and legal question. What [00:03:31] should the penalty be if you come into [00:03:33] America illegally? Okay. So, since it's [00:03:35] a misdemeanor, not a felony, [00:03:36] misdemeanor. [00:03:38] >> I just told you it's not. You can look [00:03:39] up on your chat GPT. What is 8 USC? Look [00:03:42] up what is 8 USC 1312. [00:03:44] >> No, I I know. I've already looked it up. [00:03:46] >> Yes. It's which is [00:03:47] >> when it's your second time crossing the [00:03:49] border illegally, then it becomes a [00:03:51] felony. It can it can be and it is [00:03:54] enforced as a felony and it usually is [00:03:57] done as a misdemeanor citation because [00:03:59] no one has the stones to do 20 million [00:04:01] felony you know uh applications. [00:04:04] >> Okay. [00:04:05] >> So I just want to ask [00:04:07] >> what should the penalty be then [00:04:10] >> for someone that comes into this country [00:04:12] illegally? [00:04:15] >> Usually there's there's three ways that [00:04:17] go about this. when there's a penalty. [00:04:18] It's there's either like a fine or there [00:04:20] is some kind of like uh public service [00:04:22] that this person does. Um or you send [00:04:25] them back. But but [00:04:26] >> send it back. I agree. That's what we [00:04:27] should do. [00:04:28] >> Okay. Okay. So, [cheering] okay. So, [00:04:31] this is this is interesting. So, one of [00:04:33] the stats, one of the statistics that I [00:04:34] read said that illegal immigrants don't [00:04:38] cause as much as much like they don't [00:04:41] break the law as often as people who are [00:04:43] native born. That is statistic. But [00:04:45] every single one of them are criminals. [00:04:46] They're all criminals. [00:04:47] >> They're okay. Sure. By law. By law. No. [00:04:50] By law. Of course. Of course they are. [00:04:51] >> Wait. So if they if they if they commit [00:04:52] less crime and they're all criminals. [00:04:55] >> Wait a second. By definition, [00:04:57] >> they they all have broken the law by [00:04:58] being here. And they break the law every [00:05:00] day by staying here cuz you're actually [00:05:01] not allowed to stay here either. Do you [00:05:03] know that? So every day you're here, [00:05:04] you're actually continually breaking the [00:05:06] law. You can't break in or harbor. [00:05:08] That's what the federal law says. So by [00:05:10] breaking in, it's not just the only law [00:05:12] they broke. every second you remain [00:05:14] here, you're also breaking the law. So [00:05:16] that statistic is invalidated by just [00:05:18] them breathing here, they're breaking [00:05:19] the law. [00:05:19] >> No, of course not. Of course not. So of [00:05:21] course it makes sense for them when [00:05:22] they're here, they're breaking the law [00:05:23] because they're illegal immigrants, [00:05:24] obviously. Obviously. But once they're [00:05:26] Okay. Yeah. Of course. So once they're [00:05:27] here, once they are here, what kind of [00:05:29] harm are they actually doing when you [00:05:31] look at the numbers statistically? No. [00:05:32] No, that's not true. Okay. [00:05:33] >> Black wages have gone up. Okay. In [00:05:35] Texas, [00:05:35] >> DUIs have gone up dramatic dramatically. [00:05:37] >> Try not to interrupt, bro. Hold on. I I [00:05:39] I'm I'm interjecting and I let you go [00:05:42] uninterrupted with your whole siloquy, [00:05:44] right? So [00:05:45] >> So let me just let me ask you a question [00:05:47] though. [00:05:47] >> Okay. [00:05:48] >> So if it is correct [00:05:50] >> Yeah. [00:05:51] >> that illegal aliens commit less crimes, [00:05:53] which of course it's not correct. [00:05:54] >> That is correct. Look it up. In Texas, [00:05:55] they made a study in 2019. 26% are lower [00:05:58] >> is any crime. It's just not correct. But [00:06:00] I'm not going to debate that. It's it's [00:06:01] it's I just pro I just proved it at its [00:06:03] face because they commit a crime by [00:06:05] being here every day. That is a crime. [00:06:06] >> Okay. Once they are here, what kind of [00:06:07] crimes are they committing? which is [00:06:08] >> okay. Well, [00:06:09] >> they're they're 26%. [00:06:11] >> Do you know the name Lake and Riley? [00:06:14] >> No. Educate me. [00:06:15] >> Oh, you don't? [00:06:16] >> No. No. [00:06:17] >> Do you know Wow. Do you know the name [00:06:19] Rachel Morren? [00:06:21] >> No, I don't. [00:06:23] >> Wow. [00:06:24] >> Educate me. What? What? [00:06:25] >> So, Lake and Riley was a girl at the [00:06:27] University of Georgia. Okay. [00:06:28] >> There was a peeping Tommy illegal alien [00:06:30] that was deported five times prior. He [00:06:32] hunted her down her and murdered her on [00:06:35] a hiking trail university of Georgia. [00:06:36] >> Okay. So one person doesn't represent [00:06:38] all [00:06:38] >> immigrants. Every person who is killed [00:06:40] by an illegal alien is one that should [00:06:42] not happen. Every single one of course [00:06:44] and also the ones that are born [00:06:45] everyone. And so that's the point is [00:06:47] that it's not a matter of the rate. [00:06:50] >> The the rate even if I accept your [00:06:51] premise which is incorrect. The rate is [00:06:54] irrelevant. The number is what's [00:06:56] relevant. There should be zero illegal [00:06:57] aliens. There should be zero Americans [00:06:59] being killed by illegals. Not to mention [00:07:01] there's six other problems with illegal [00:07:03] aliens. They steal social security [00:07:04] numbers. They depress wages. They are [00:07:07] heavily involved. By the way, not to [00:07:09] mention a lot of people that cross on [00:07:11] the southern border are also smuggling [00:07:12] girls, weapons, and drugs alongside the [00:07:14] southern border when they come. It's the [00:07:16] largest slavering operate slavery [00:07:17] operation in American history that many [00:07:20] illegal aliens help make possible on the [00:07:21] southern border. And I guess the final [00:07:23] question I'll have is should a [00:07:26] government serve its citizens first and [00:07:28] foremost? [00:07:29] >> Yeah, of course. Of course. Well, okay. [00:07:31] There's many there's been many people [00:07:32] who are like very political leaders who [00:07:34] have said that this place is built off [00:07:36] of immigrants. [00:07:37] >> Oh, is it Well, hold on. Let's think [00:07:39] about that. Was was first of all, it's [00:07:41] legal, not illegal. But was America [00:07:43] founded by immigrants or settlers? [00:07:45] >> Settlers. [00:07:46] >> That's not an immigrant. [00:07:47] >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's not my [00:07:48] point. My point is that people [00:07:50] >> You brought up the the nation built by [00:07:52] immigrants? [00:07:53] >> Yeah. We're actually because the [00:07:54] political leaders have said that this [00:07:56] place is built [00:07:56] >> Yeah. And they're from They're wrong. [00:07:58] Political leaders are wrong. George W. [00:08:00] Bush is wrong. All these political [00:08:02] leaders who have built America, [00:08:03] >> By the way, the first person to say that [00:08:04] was [00:08:05] >> How is that wrong when illegal [00:08:06] immigrants make they grow the economy [00:08:09] statistically? [00:08:10] >> Allow me again. Allow me to build it out [00:08:12] for you. [00:08:13] >> Immigrants have helped at times in [00:08:15] American history. But we are first and [00:08:16] foremost a nation founded by settlers. [00:08:18] Immigrants come to a country already [00:08:19] built. Settlers come to a barren place [00:08:21] and build something new. This land was [00:08:23] barren when people came [00:08:25] >> in the 1840s gold rush. This was not an [00:08:27] easy place to live. Yeah, [00:08:28] >> California was not exactly [00:08:30] industrialized. There was not immigrants [00:08:32] coming west to California. Those were [00:08:33] settlers building a new place around, [00:08:35] you know, western western values. [00:08:37] Finally, I would just ask the question, [00:08:40] >> do you see a moral distinction between a [00:08:42] legal immigrant and an illegal [00:08:43] immigrant? [00:08:44] >> Well, the argument is that they're [00:08:45] cutting in line. Like their argument is [00:08:47] that they're cutting in line in the [00:08:48] 20ear process that it would take for [00:08:50] someone to be to cross. [00:08:51] >> It's not 20, but [00:08:52] >> yeah, at most it's 20. At most it's 20. [00:08:53] Right now, there's around like 1.2 [00:08:55] million people who are currently [00:08:56] waiting. That would take six to seven [00:08:58] years for a hearing. [00:08:59] >> And by the way, no one has a right to [00:09:00] come to this country. Just to be clear, [00:09:02] >> let me stay on track of what I was going [00:09:04] to say. [00:09:04] >> Okay. So, so people people who come here [00:09:07] usually almost all the time when they [00:09:10] come here, it's they benefit society. [00:09:12] They benefit society. There's studies [00:09:14] that have done this. [00:09:15] >> Not necessarily. [00:09:16] >> Okay. Not necessarily, but overall in [00:09:18] general when you look overall disagree [00:09:21] with that, [00:09:22] >> you can't disagree with a fact. The [00:09:23] final question is sure. [00:09:25] >> Do you have any concern that there are [00:09:28] too many people coming into this country [00:09:29] and we're a nation of strangers, not a [00:09:31] nation of neighbors? [00:09:32] >> If the people who are coming are [00:09:33] creating America, making it more [00:09:34] growing, like the economy is growing, [00:09:36] then what harm is that doing? Especially [00:09:38] if the people are [00:09:38] >> covering that an economy though, aren't [00:09:40] we? We're a culture. We're a language. [00:09:41] >> Of course. Okay. So, let's talk about [00:09:43] that front. When they come here, they [00:09:44] don't have any kind of they're not [00:09:46] committing as more more crimes than the [00:09:47] people who are already here. That is [00:09:49] we've already dispelled that. But that [00:09:50] is not you can't dispel us. California. [00:09:54] Do you think there's anything wrong that [00:09:55] a majority of young people in California [00:09:57] speak Spanish, not English? [00:09:58] >> Is there Wait, sorry. Can you see the [00:09:59] >> Do you think there's anything wrong or [00:10:00] troubling to the fact that a majority of [00:10:02] people under the age of 30 here in the [00:10:03] state speak Spanish, not English? [00:10:06] >> Um, [00:10:06] >> is there a problem with that? [00:10:08] >> Well, yeah. Everyone should be able to [00:10:09] have a ability to communicate with the [00:10:11] rest of the crowd. [00:10:13] >> So, I I guess I don't know what the big [00:10:14] issue of that. [00:10:15] >> See, I think it's a huge problem when we [00:10:16] have a nation where you can't [00:10:18] communicate with your fellow. [00:10:19] >> Okay. Simple solution. Teach them how to [00:10:20] speak English. What is your point? [00:10:22] >> Yeah. And that our schools don't do that [00:10:23] actually. And also have a better [00:10:25] solution. Don't import a bunch of people [00:10:26] that don't speak English. [00:10:28] >> You mean importing people who actually [00:10:30] grow the economy. [00:10:32] >> Reject I reject your premise. We are [00:10:34] more than [00:10:34] >> a premise. That's a study that's been [00:10:36] done. [00:10:36] >> Do you know what a premise is? I don't [00:10:38] actually care as much about economic [00:10:40] growth cuz we're one nation under we're [00:10:42] one nation under GD. We're not one [00:10:43] nation under GDP. We're a nation under [00:10:45] God. And when we lose social cohesion [00:10:47] [cheering] and you import a bunch of [00:10:49] people that don't share our values, that [00:10:51] don't necessarily always assimilate, [00:10:53] that's a major and serious problem. And [00:10:55] we are a we are a people first and [00:10:57] foremost with a creed. And that creed is [00:10:59] falling apart. Mass has not helped that [00:11:01] creed. Yes, they might buy more [00:11:03] trinkets. They might help depress wages. [00:11:05] Massigration of course can help. [00:11:07] >> All good things, all great things for [00:11:08] America. [00:11:09] >> Well, they help major corporations, but [00:11:11] you know what they also do? They keep [00:11:12] down the wages of working people. If you [00:11:14] are a plumber, Yes, of course. If you [00:11:15] think about it, if you're a plumber, [00:11:17] electrician, or a welder, and you have [00:11:18] to compete against someone from [00:11:19] Nicaragua who's willing to do it for [00:11:21] five bucks less an hour, that depresses [00:11:22] the wages of the American citizen, [00:11:24] >> right? Yeah. So, there's been studies [00:11:26] I've done that also like counteract [00:11:28] that. [00:11:29] >> illegal immigrants. [00:11:31] No, let's use our studies. Let's use our [00:11:34] statistics. [00:11:34] >> How about our reason? So, we've had mass [00:11:36] migration for 20 years. Have wages gone [00:11:38] up? [00:11:40] >> I I don't know. [00:11:42] >> No, they haven't, actually. So, forget [00:11:43] your studies. For 10 years, we've had [00:11:46] for 10 years, we've had 30 million [00:11:47] people come into America, [00:11:49] >> wages have gone down dramatically. Maybe [00:11:51] there's a reason why. [00:11:53] >> Okay. Okay. [00:11:55] >> So, what I encourage you to do just [00:11:57] because there's a study that confirms [00:11:59] you should use your reason and look [00:12:01] actually at self-evident truths. Be [00:12:03] like, "Huh, does that make sense? Can [00:12:06] you name [00:12:06] >> statistics are self-evident truths?" [00:12:07] >> Well, not always. Statistics are very [00:12:09] misleading. Yes. you like for example I [00:12:11] could say did you know that 600 people a [00:12:13] year die because of seat belts well [00:12:15] that's a misleading statistic because [00:12:17] over 100 thousand lives are saved by [00:12:19] seat belts that's an incomplete [00:12:20] statistic [00:12:20] >> wait okay so where where is the so [00:12:22] that's a gray area so where's the gray [00:12:24] area where people are talking about [00:12:25] where 26% of illegal immigrants who come [00:12:28] here commit less crimes than native born [00:12:29] >> okay we have how many times have we been [00:12:31] over this that's just not correct [00:12:32] >> that is correct that is correct [00:12:34] >> every single crime it doesn't matter [00:12:36] >> this is a study that was done in Texas [00:12:37] the most diverse second most diverse [00:12:40] Every crime an illegal commits is one [00:12:42] that should never have happened. It is a [00:12:44] period. They should not be here. So I [00:12:46] don't care about the rate. The rate is [00:12:47] irrelevant. So let me just ask one final [00:12:49] question. [00:12:50] >> It is relevant. [00:12:51] >> Someone broke into the country and cut [00:12:52] in line. What should happen to them? [00:12:54] >> Well, they get they're given ideally [00:12:57] there's a system. Ideally there's a [00:12:58] system that's merit based where these [00:13:00] people then become part of the part of [00:13:01] the the citizen like they become a legal [00:13:03] citizen. [00:13:04] >> Yeah. I mean we have clarity but not [00:13:06] agreement. I say deport them all back to [00:13:07] their country of origin and put [00:13:09] Americans first. [00:13:09] >> That's not that's not an appropriate [00:13:11] solution when [00:13:12] >> the American people voted for it and it [00:13:13] is appropriate. [00:13:14] >> It isn't appropriate because most of the [00:13:16] people that do come here illegally [00:13:17] contribute positively to society. Not [00:13:20] again, dude. Statistically, [00:13:22] everything backs this. [00:13:23] >> You're not listening to anything I'm [00:13:24] saying and that's fine. They take jobs [00:13:26] from Americans. They depress wages. They [00:13:28] steal social security numbers. They [00:13:30] commit a crime every single day that [00:13:31] they're here. They flood our public [00:13:33] schools. They flood our social services. [00:13:35] They flood our hospitals. They are a [00:13:37] burden on the taxpayer. They should go [00:13:39] back and make their own country great [00:13:41] again and apply and become a legal [00:13:42] immigrant if they want to live here. [00:13:44] Thank you very much. [00:13:45] >> Thank you. [applause and cheering] [00:13:47] >> In in Europe, we having a a big problem [00:13:50] with illegal immigration. People are [00:13:53] coming that they don't respect our laws [00:13:55] that woman stabbing is dangerous to go [00:13:58] around. So I don't understand when [00:14:01] people come here to talk to you liberals [00:14:03] saying that they want to welcome them [00:14:05] because you don't know who is entering [00:14:07] in your country. [00:14:08] >> Amen. And I'll tell you we need more [00:14:09] legal immigrants like you in this [00:14:11] country. I'll tell you what [cheering] [00:14:13] >> and it makes me upset that for me for me [00:14:15] it's difficult. I'm respecting the law. [00:14:17] I'm here if I I have to be here legally. [00:14:19] I'm going to go back to Italy because I [00:14:20] cannot work. And it makes me upset [00:14:22] seeing someone that comes here illegally [00:14:24] and does whatever he wants. That's it. [00:14:26] >> My name's Ellie. Overall, just to go [00:14:28] into my question, I I am on I am [00:14:31] conservative. So, going into this, I was [00:14:32] like, oh, like what what should what [00:14:34] should I ask you about? I think overall [00:14:36] I was going through different policies [00:14:37] and in general I agree. Ultimately, I [00:14:39] think the topic of my question is how to [00:14:42] approach politics in school and in [00:14:44] general with this function. I found that [00:14:47] a lot of times [00:14:49] when I talk to people who are on the [00:14:51] other side of me, they are surprised to [00:14:53] find out what I think and my ideas are [00:14:56] not that crazy. It's like when you [00:14:57] actually get into the meat of it, it's [00:14:59] like, oh, actually maybe it does make [00:15:00] sense. And so I think it's really [00:15:02] valuable to start giving these ideas to [00:15:06] the world. And so this is this is one of [00:15:07] these options. But I guess my question [00:15:09] is, is this the best way? Because when I [00:15:12] um when I hear like for example on [00:15:13] Reddit, they're like, don't approach [00:15:14] him. Don't do this. He's just doing [00:15:15] that. He's doing this. He's doing that. [00:15:16] He's using all these tactics. And so I [00:15:18] wonder if you've considered not to say [00:15:20] that this is a bad way to go about it, [00:15:22] but if there's maybe a slightly better [00:15:24] way because I think what you're saying [00:15:26] has a lot of value in this world, but [00:15:28] it's propon like in this school [00:15:30] specifically, it is thought of as evil [00:15:32] and is like not like a a valid way to [00:15:36] >> that's a UC San Diego problem, not not a [00:15:38] Charlie problem, right? [00:15:39] >> No. And it's not and it's and it's not [00:15:40] to say it's a problem of you. No, no, [00:15:42] no. And meaning like if and I read the [00:15:44] there was some op-ed journalists where [00:15:46] they said ignore Charlie, you know, [00:15:47] ignore him. But what they're saying is [00:15:49] that they are not either smart enough or [00:15:52] they're not intellectually mature enough [00:15:54] to have a discussion with a conservative [00:15:56] on any issue. I have literally almost no [00:15:58] notes. I have like a couple charts to [00:16:00] show you if the topics come up. You guys [00:16:02] can use AI, you guys can use Grock, you [00:16:04] could use whatever you want. You could [00:16:05] bring a professor, you could bring five [00:16:07] of your top libs together. [00:16:08] >> Debate me, right? [00:16:10] >> Yeah. [00:16:10] >> Do I other side? Okay. Thank you. And [00:16:12] you guys can debate me at any time. I I [00:16:14] I fail to understand why. Well, [00:16:18] actually, I know the reason. Speech is [00:16:20] not a left-wing value. And they do not [00:16:23] believe in freedom of speech. They [00:16:24] believe in totalitarian control. There [00:16:26] are exceptions to that. So, if they have [00:16:28] a problem, I I think this is one of the [00:16:30] best ways, not the best way. I literally [00:16:32] could not be more open to disagreement. [00:16:35] I say if you disagree, you go to the [00:16:36] front of the line. [00:16:37] >> Yeah. And I mean, how often do you as [00:16:40] conservatives get a chance to challenge [00:16:42] liberals on campus, right? And being [00:16:44] welcomed ever. [00:16:45] >> Absolutely. Almost never. Definitely [00:16:46] not. [00:16:47] >> Because speech is not a leftwing value. [00:16:48] >> No. But to say that I mean with all of [00:16:51] that being said, that is very true. But [00:16:53] ultimately what happens here is I see a [00:16:55] lot of like the ideas just being like [00:16:58] bubbled against. And so like when I talk [00:17:00] to my friends, they're not their ideas [00:17:02] aren't changed from these conversations. [00:17:04] And so I wonder if there's just like a [00:17:05] >> You would be surprised. Sorry to [00:17:06] interrupt. What we what happens here [00:17:08] gets seen hundreds of millions of times [00:17:10] on social media. Absolutely. The crowds [00:17:11] are growing. And so, look, some people [00:17:13] are going to remain close-minded. [00:17:15] They're not going to, you know, have [00:17:16] their horizons open, but that's on them, [00:17:20] right? They have to actually want to [00:17:21] pursue the truth and not just have their [00:17:24] own worldview confirmed. [00:17:25] >> And then I guess that's where I I [00:17:26] disagree because I think fundamentally [00:17:28] there is truth within anything. And I [00:17:31] believe that maybe I would ask you like [00:17:33] to say to or to see that like you have a [00:17:36] big role in this. You have a big fan [00:17:38] base and a big media base that you can [00:17:40] make you are making incredible change. [00:17:42] And to take it one just one step further [00:17:44] would be really trying to push the [00:17:46] narrative against this being like a [00:17:48] place where people are just like [00:17:50] debating. It's it's more than that. [00:17:51] >> What would you like to see? [00:17:53] >> I no I guess maybe it's more of a [00:17:55] question. And I guess I don't know move [00:17:57] like moving forward like trying to m [00:17:59] maybe um to see that like instead of [00:18:01] using these really fast tactics and to [00:18:03] really like try to bring it down. Not to [00:18:06] say someone is No, no. I not to say that [00:18:08] they're No, [00:18:09] >> I I disagree with all that. That's fine. [00:18:11] >> Yeah. [00:18:12] >> I I mean you're thinking way too much [00:18:13] about libs on Reddit. I care about [00:18:15] normal people. So [00:18:16] >> No, I And no, but the [00:18:18] >> I mean you did bring up Reddit. I'm [00:18:20] sorry. You're like [00:18:21] >> No, I guess that's true. No. And I guess [00:18:23] >> these people are not well socially [00:18:24] adjusted, right? I talked to the 90% of [00:18:26] the American people that actually want [00:18:28] to make something of their life and you [00:18:30] know have kids and [00:18:31] >> no and I I couldn't agree more with that [00:18:33] like stance. I guess maybe stepping away [00:18:35] from Reddit, it's to me the people on [00:18:37] this campus, this is a school I go to [00:18:39] and almost everyone I'm surrounded with [00:18:41] has a completely different view from me [00:18:43] and I'd love [00:18:43] >> Not everybody. [00:18:44] >> No. No. And this is like but this like [00:18:47] the people here to find them it feels [00:18:49] like you're like sipping through a [00:18:51] needle in a hay stack. [00:18:52] >> You want a hat? [00:18:53] >> Sure. [00:18:53] >> All right. Thank you very much. [00:18:54] >> I think when we talk about abortion I [00:18:56] think we really get into this um idea of [00:18:58] like when we should assign personhood, [00:19:00] right? So um uh you clearly believe that [00:19:03] life begins at conception and I think it [00:19:05] would be better if we shift the uh if we [00:19:07] shift that metric to a more based on [00:19:10] sentience and I believe that like um and [00:19:12] the question I have for you is that like [00:19:13] since you believe that life begins at at [00:19:15] birth let's say we have a person that's [00:19:17] grown to old age and they have died and [00:19:19] they have um they have absolutely [00:19:21] showing no brain activity at all. Um [00:19:23] would you believe that like you know [00:19:25] that person uh that dead person is the [00:19:28] equivalent of like a human life? Yeah, I [00:19:30] mean it is a human life, but those are [00:19:31] two totally separate things. One, one is [00:19:33] no more and the other one's not yet, [00:19:35] >> right? [00:19:36] >> So, so not yet is different than no [00:19:37] more. If someone's at the end of their [00:19:38] life and there's nothing more we can do [00:19:39] to continue their life, that is a [00:19:41] different moral conversation than [00:19:42] someone that has not yet been completely [00:19:44] grown as a human, as you and I. Two [00:19:45] totally different moral circumstances. [00:19:47] So, you can't conflate the two, [00:19:48] >> right? Um, but I think they both have [00:19:50] the same problem where like uh that uh [00:19:53] it's it's about the presence of [00:19:54] consciousness, right? Then, [00:19:55] >> no, it's not a problem. One [00:19:56] consciousness will come, one will the [00:19:58] one will not. [00:19:59] >> That's so they're two separate things. [00:20:01] One has potentiality, one does not. So [00:20:03] you can't conflate the two. [00:20:05] >> Okay. Let's say like let me use a [00:20:06] different analogy then. Let's say um I [00:20:08] have a blueprint to a building, right? [00:20:09] And uh I have the materials for the [00:20:11] building and you destroy those [00:20:12] materials. Um that the materials of of [00:20:14] the building isn't the building in [00:20:15] itself. Can we both agree that there's a [00:20:17] difference between those two? [00:20:18] >> Is the building building itself in real [00:20:20] time and it's currently being [00:20:21] constructed and it's going up up? Oh, [00:20:22] but it still doesn't matter because then [00:20:24] they're still adding value to the fact [00:20:26] that we're creating the [00:20:26] >> bad analogy. A blueprint [00:20:29] because the blueprint not itself is not [00:20:31] the building, [00:20:31] >> right? Exactly. So like a human being's [00:20:34] DNA is not just agree on that though. [00:20:36] The blueprint is not the building. So [00:20:37] there's probably different moral [00:20:38] qualifications there. [00:20:39] >> No, they're not. I'm saying though that [00:20:40] the baby is the building. So you're [00:20:42] incorrect. [00:20:42] >> Okay. So the baby the building is [00:20:44] following the blueprint. [00:20:45] >> So when you're looking at like like I [00:20:46] don't know like a fertilized egg, you're [00:20:47] telling me this a picture of this [00:20:48] fertilized egg is the equivalent of a [00:20:50] human life right now. Right now the [00:20:51] exact same. the difference. [00:20:52] >> They're different stage of development. [00:20:54] >> So why should stage of development give [00:20:57] you more rights? [00:20:58] >> Well, I mean we we Okay, you're acting [00:20:59] like this is not something this is done [00:21:00] in society. Like for example, we do [00:21:02] judge based on different stages of [00:21:04] development like cognitive capabilities, [00:21:05] right? I'm not letting a fetus drive a [00:21:07] car. A fetus can't drive to life. [00:21:10] >> Apply the right to life. [00:21:12] >> This is a little bit different. So my I [00:21:13] guess my I guess a different question I [00:21:14] would have to ask you is like why um do [00:21:18] so why is your so I'm I'm assuming your [00:21:19] two qualifications here are the fact [00:21:21] that like it can create it's a unique [00:21:23] cellular organism right that has the [00:21:25] potential to [00:21:25] >> and it's human which is inherently has [00:21:27] dignity [00:21:28] >> so so okay so I guess then this this [00:21:31] brings a question because I know there's [00:21:32] another scenario where this occurs right [00:21:34] where fertilization of an egg occurs and [00:21:35] they're they have they're on on track to [00:21:37] development correct and this other [00:21:40] example that I'll think of is like [00:21:41] animals right I think um Do we give the [00:21:43] why do we not give the same moral [00:21:44] consideration to animals as we are to [00:21:45] like like zygot in this situation? [00:21:48] >> Animals aren't human beings. [00:21:49] >> Okay. So, but why is human beings? [00:21:50] >> Human beings have a soul and animals do [00:21:52] not [00:21:52] >> have a soul. So, so levels. So, exact. [00:21:54] So, this is my point. [00:21:56] It's a conscious experience. You are you [00:21:57] are [00:21:59] dishonest. This is honest though. Let me [00:22:00] prove it to you. When someone is quote [00:22:02] unquote brain dead, do you know that [00:22:03] they still respond if someone stabs [00:22:05] them? Their norepinephrine goes up. Do [00:22:07] you know that a woman still me menrates [00:22:08] if she's brain dead? So, consciousness [00:22:10] is not human worth. There's something [00:22:12] else going on beyond consciousness that [00:22:13] exists in a being that is the soul. [00:22:15] >> Okay. So, now we're getting into a [00:22:16] conversation what the difference between [00:22:17] the soul and a consciousness is. And [00:22:18] >> no, they're totally different. The soul [00:22:19] is the something beyond consciousness is [00:22:21] your narration to yourself. Your ability [00:22:23] to reason. There's something above [00:22:25] reason. All of us know what that is when [00:22:27] it kicks in. You ever hear the [00:22:28] expression words can't describe I am [00:22:30] speechless. You know why? Speech is [00:22:32] reason. When you see a sunset that takes [00:22:33] your breath away. When you see a newborn [00:22:35] life that is born, you don't even have [00:22:36] the words to express it because it [00:22:38] transcends you. That is your soul. So, [00:22:40] so I mean that's a good point like when [00:22:41] when we give so you what you just label [00:22:43] there is like when a child is given born [00:22:45] when when they're born we give such [00:22:47] moral significance to that not the fact [00:22:48] that like they got infertilized by an [00:22:50] egg I don't want to celebrate I want to [00:22:51] sort of I'd rather celebrate my birthday [00:22:53] rather than like you know the day my [00:22:55] parents had sex that's kind of a little [00:22:56] weird situation you know what I mean [00:22:58] like if life begins at concept [00:22:59] conception [00:23:00] >> well it's called your birthday for a [00:23:01] reason but you were you were a living [00:23:03] being [00:23:03] >> it seems that like society nine months [00:23:05] prior [00:23:06] >> gravitates to this idea of like an [00:23:08] actual human being existing No value, [00:23:10] right? One is your entrance to the [00:23:12] world. The other one is the actual [00:23:13] creation of your being. Two different [00:23:15] things. Your birthday is when you [00:23:16] entered the world. For example, your [00:23:18] birthday could be at 28 weeks, not 36 [00:23:20] weeks. So, everybody has a different day [00:23:21] when you exit the womb, but it's not [00:23:23] when your worth begins. That's not when [00:23:25] your value begins. That's simply when [00:23:27] you exit the womb. [00:23:28] >> Right. Right. So, I I have a good [00:23:29] question. I really want to get back to [00:23:30] this uh idea of like you give more moral [00:23:32] value to the level of the fact that like [00:23:34] that humans that are developed have a [00:23:36] soul in comparison to like you know a [00:23:37] zygote that or actually no animals. [00:23:40] >> Okay. So is that not the same comparison [00:23:43] to like a zygote to a developed human [00:23:45] being in in the sense that like like um [00:23:49] we are a higher fire higher functioning [00:23:51] cog conscious being in comparison to [00:23:53] like this other thing that we can just [00:23:55] actively kill whenever [00:23:56] >> doesn't matter. I mean, can you actively [00:23:57] kill a one-year-old? Doesn't have as [00:23:58] much acuity as you do or consciousness, [00:24:01] >> right? Yeah. But like I mean, can you [00:24:03] kill a one-year-old? [00:24:03] >> That's the same thing because like this [00:24:05] is going back to my [00:24:06] >> What's the difference between a [00:24:07] one-year-old and a and a one day old [00:24:08] Zyo? What's the moral difference? [00:24:09] >> Uh the level of consciousness. [00:24:11] >> Oh, so one's bigger, one's more [00:24:12] developed, one's older. The [00:24:14] consciousness is completely irrelevant [00:24:16] cuz just you know that a one day old out [00:24:18] of the womb doesn't have a lot of [00:24:19] consciousness at all. It can't speak. It [00:24:21] can't really It's kind of like [00:24:22] disimbabulated. But you don't get less [00:24:24] rights for that. Yeah, I I I agree. I [00:24:27] mean like well to a certain degree I [00:24:29] agree with that. But like there but [00:24:30] there is a meaningful difference between [00:24:32] a fertilized egg and a conscious human [00:24:34] being. One is one is less conscious than [00:24:36] the other. [00:24:36] >> Oh no. Or one is more skills but like [00:24:38] what's the what's the innate moral [00:24:40] difference and prove it to me? [00:24:41] >> Um because we it seems like we do give [00:24:43] restrict rights and we do actually [00:24:45] change rights based on development and [00:24:46] consciousness. [00:24:47] >> No life. So like a four-year-old, right? [00:24:49] What is the innate moral difference of a [00:24:50] four-year-old and a zygote? [00:24:52] >> One is more conscious. [00:24:54] >> Okay, got it. So I think that's [00:24:55] irrelevant. I think they're both human [00:24:56] beings deserving a protection. [00:24:57] Consciousness alone is not a marker of [00:24:59] dignity. [00:25:00] >> Okay. So then what is your marker of [00:25:01] dignity? Is [00:25:02] >> being a human being. [00:25:02] >> Being a human being. So your is your [00:25:04] argu argument a little bit circular [00:25:06] though? There is like it's just because [00:25:07] we are we deserve rights because we're [00:25:09] human being. [00:25:09] >> Yeah. Of course. I mean it's [00:25:10] self-evident. We are human beings with a [00:25:12] soul. Therefore we have rights. [00:25:13] >> So So it's we're we deserve rights [00:25:14] because we're human beings because we're [00:25:15] human beings. So like how am I supposed [00:25:17] to win against this argument here? [00:25:18] >> You can't [00:25:18] >> see. Okay. Yeah. Exactly. So it's it's [00:25:22] called it's called a self-evident truth. [00:25:24] So, so [00:25:24] >> it's called self-evidence. So there it [00:25:26] is. That's why the pro-life position is [00:25:27] irrefutable is that because you have to [00:25:30] posit human beings have rights [00:25:31] >> and and that's that isn't that a kind of [00:25:32] a concern that like we we base all our [00:25:34] entire ideology on this one illogical [00:25:36] circle that [00:25:37] >> it's not illogical. It's incredibly [00:25:38] logical. We are human beings and we [00:25:40] believe that they matter. [00:25:41] >> If you were remove this this circle [00:25:43] here, then you would have to actually be [00:25:44] pro-life in that sense to be pro- life [00:25:46] to all life. [00:25:47] >> Oh, we are. [00:25:47] >> Right. So animals kind of believe human [00:25:50] beings are I'm not like a vegan or [00:25:52] anything. I'm [00:25:52] >> human beings are not the moral same as a [00:25:54] as a bird. It's not the same thing [00:25:57] >> for multiple reasons because a human [00:25:58] being has characteristics and qualities [00:26:00] and most importantly we believe as [00:26:02] Christians human beings have a soul that [00:26:04] a bird does not have. [00:26:05] >> Okay. So characteristics and qualities [00:26:06] >> only let me interrupt one more. The west [00:26:08] whether you agree or not sorry to [00:26:09] interrupt. We believe the human being is [00:26:11] the only thing made in the image of the [00:26:13] creator. A mo day. [00:26:14] >> Okay. Okay. So when you say [00:26:16] characteristics and qualities what does [00:26:17] that mean to me? What does that mean to [00:26:18] me? Well, first of all, not just the [00:26:20] ability to reason, but also the ability [00:26:22] to sympathize, empathize, feel, predict, [00:26:24] plan, conjecture, have mercy, [00:26:26] forgiveness, to be able to be [00:26:28] introspective. [00:26:29] >> I love that. I love that about us human [00:26:30] beings. [00:26:30] >> Oh, no. I know. [00:26:31] >> I'm not being sarcastic. We human beings [00:26:33] are exceptional actually. I mean, versus [00:26:35] the the beasts of the wild, which we [00:26:36] should appreciate and adore. But again [00:26:38] more beyond that we come after this from [00:26:40] a soft religious view because you don't [00:26:41] have to be Christian to believe this [00:26:43] right that the human being has innate [00:26:45] inherent [00:26:46] >> um embedded let's just say dignity that [00:26:50] a fox does not [00:26:51] >> right yeah so what you just did there is [00:26:54] kind of like my argument here you're [00:26:56] you're you're saying that like because [00:26:58] we are human we are more developed we [00:26:59] are we have higher cognitive reasoning [00:27:02] we're able to emo sympathize emotion and [00:27:04] reason do all these great things right [00:27:06] but the thing is well I guess that's [00:27:07] That's a that's a that's an that's a [00:27:08] religious belief though. [00:27:09] >> Well, that's an interesting question. [00:27:11] >> I think that consciousness is the soul. [00:27:14] >> And that's that's where we that's where [00:27:15] why if you don't believe in God, it's [00:27:17] easy to go want to murder a bunch of [00:27:18] people. And I'm not I'm not criticizing [00:27:20] you. It goes back to just a common theme [00:27:22] here. If you believe in God, every human [00:27:24] being has dignity. [00:27:26] >> Well, you you're kind of intuition [00:27:27] pumping there about saying if it's [00:27:28] murder because we haven't really discuss [00:27:30] we haven't even agreed on [00:27:33] course if it's a human being and an [00:27:34] elimination of life. Is it murder? But [00:27:36] that's fine. We're not We're just This [00:27:38] is why it's very hard to change people [00:27:39] that don't believe in God to be pro-life [00:27:42] because you don't you don't necessarily [00:27:44] believe that human life is necessarily [00:27:46] special. [00:27:47] >> No, I I mean I do [00:27:48] >> but you might think it's like unique and [00:27:49] it's like interesting. It is but you [00:27:52] don't believe it's made in the image of [00:27:53] a creator. [00:27:54] >> Okay. Yeah. [00:27:55] >> And that's fine. And that that's why we [00:27:56] tend to be the pro-life champions and [00:27:58] those that don't believe in God don't. [00:27:59] And that's okay. It's just that that [00:28:01] that clarity is important for the [00:28:03] audience. [00:28:03] >> Okay. So I I guess we're we can keep [00:28:05] going back and forth. I'm sure you got [00:28:06] to hold on. I want to give some more [00:28:07] people, but I I I do I do want to have a [00:28:09] good question with you. Uh a question [00:28:10] about um that I want to leave off on is [00:28:13] so it seems like it's it's I I I think [00:28:16] you're pretty set in stone in this in [00:28:17] this position and I would I would like [00:28:18] to ask what would I have to do or prove [00:28:21] to show you in order to convince you [00:28:22] that pro-life isn't the answer that [00:28:24] society should be seeking for. [00:28:25] >> I mean, it would be impossibility. You [00:28:27] have to prove to me God doesn't exist. [00:28:28] >> Okay. So, so then we can agree that like [00:28:31] this is just a a moral issue that you're [00:28:32] appealing to a book. [00:28:33] >> Of course. I mean all moral issues [00:28:34] appeal to an authority obviously. Why is [00:28:36] murder wrong? [00:28:37] >> I mean cuz it Well, the reason if you [00:28:40] want to talk about morality, we can talk [00:28:41] about morality. [00:28:41] >> Abortion is a moral issue. Of course it [00:28:43] is. [00:28:43] >> Yeah. But the reason why [00:28:44] >> our whole conversation is laced with [00:28:46] morality. [00:28:46] >> But in order to kind of like reduct it [00:28:48] to like a textbook or a book or a [00:28:50] specific like where do you get your [00:28:52] morality from? [00:28:52] >> Well, I think morality should be based [00:28:54] on like what is the best choice of [00:28:55] action to help society progress. That [00:28:57] makes any sense. [00:28:58] >> Okay, got it. What What if society [00:28:59] agrees we should kill the dumb people? [00:29:01] Well, um, probably not the best. [00:29:04] >> Well, about you. But why? [00:29:05] >> The thing is the thing is the thing is [00:29:08] automatically that doesn't work because [00:29:10] in Iceland it's it's it's mandatory to [00:29:12] abort down syndrome babies. [00:29:14] >> Okay. [00:29:15] >> But it's best, right? Down syndrome [00:29:16] people are a strain on society. Why do [00:29:18] you say it's wrong? [00:29:19] >> I mean, because there's some degree of [00:29:20] like like uh we should protect some [00:29:22] people. [00:29:22] >> Why? By what standard? Why are you [00:29:24] appealing to I appeal to a book? What do [00:29:26] you appeal to? The thing is I I I think [00:29:27] like there's still some value to be what [00:29:29] standard. Is that your opinion or is [00:29:31] there something transcended telling you [00:29:32] that? [00:29:32] >> No, there's something transcended [00:29:33] because like there is some sacredity to [00:29:35] life and that's what I agree with. I I [00:29:36] agree that life is sacred. That that [00:29:38] that's why I would agree that if you if [00:29:39] you adopted a more broader pro pro-life [00:29:42] stance, I think I would be more on side [00:29:43] of that. Like if you want to have a [00:29:44] society where forcing women to breed and [00:29:47] pump out children, then I I would say [00:29:48] you would have to create that society [00:29:50] where like it is um uh more able for [00:29:52] them to do that. And in addition to not [00:29:54] not be indiscriminate between life. So I [00:29:56] think [00:29:57] >> I I would agree with that sentiment. [00:29:58] Right.