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[00:00:03] [Music] [00:00:08] Hello and welcome to State of Play on [00:00:10] Mint Press News, your bi-weekly [00:00:12] geopolitical news stream where we will [00:00:14] be talking about journalism in the face [00:00:17] of unconscionable war crimes and we will [00:00:19] be asking the fundamental question, is [00:00:21] journalism as a formal institution dead? [00:00:25] It seems like objective truth is [00:00:27] completely subservient to elite [00:00:28] corporate and political interests. And [00:00:30] nowhere is this more exemplified than in [00:00:32] the targeting of journalists in the Gaza [00:00:34] Strip. I am your host Greg Stoker. We're [00:00:36] going to be joined by a conflict [00:00:37] journalist who went into Fallujah in [00:00:40] Iraq in 20 2004, sorry, independently to [00:00:43] film a documentary. She's also done a [00:00:46] lot of other work. And we're going to be [00:00:48] talking about what happened to the Gazin [00:00:50] journalist Anas al-Shariff and his [00:00:53] Alazer colleagues yesterday. What does [00:00:55] it mean going forward? And yes, the [00:00:57] world as a whole is a lot less safe. By [00:01:00] the way, if you're watching the video, I [00:01:02] know you guys are a lot of audio [00:01:03] listeners cuz now we are on all podcast [00:01:06] platforms, but um my actual fancy camera [00:01:10] isn't working, so you're just going to [00:01:11] have to deal with the bad video quality. [00:01:12] Apologies. I usually don't do my [00:01:15] military bio, but since we might have [00:01:17] some new folks around here, I'll restate [00:01:19] it. I am a former US Army Ranger with a [00:01:22] background in special operations and [00:01:23] human intelligence collection. I [00:01:25] conducted four combat deployments to [00:01:27] Afghanistan and now I'm an [00:01:28] anti-imperialist activist and [00:01:30] journalist. This is relevant because [00:01:32] we're going to be discussing the air [00:01:33] strike that killed these journalists [00:01:35] yesterday, how it was affectuated, the [00:01:37] technology used, and examine the [00:01:39] military propaganda used to justify it. [00:01:41] Essentially, I'm going to argue that [00:01:42] there is no way it wasn't an intentional [00:01:44] strike. I mean, everybody knows that, [00:01:46] but we're going to break down why in [00:01:47] case you have a problematic uncle that [00:01:49] you need to have talking points for. So, [00:01:52] the bottom line is some of you are going [00:01:54] to have to, not you guys, but other [00:01:56] people who don't watch this this show, [00:01:58] some of you are going to have to explain [00:02:00] to your grandchildren how third grade [00:02:03] military propaganda turned you into a [00:02:05] genocidal lunatic cheering on the death [00:02:08] of doctors, journalists, mothers, and [00:02:10] innocent men and children. Good luck. [00:02:12] gonna take some serious mental [00:02:14] gymnastics. But at least the Democratic [00:02:16] Party has a new moral champion willing [00:02:19] to stand up for what's right. As some of [00:02:22] you are still filling into the live [00:02:23] episode, we're going to take a minute to [00:02:25] reflect on human chat GPT [00:02:28] Pete Buddhaj's recent appearance on Pod [00:02:32] Save America. He is being floated as one [00:02:35] of the Democratic hopefuls for a [00:02:37] president run [00:02:39] >> human suffering in Gaza. Do you think [00:02:42] it's time to recognize a Palestinian [00:02:43] state? [00:02:45] >> I think that that's uh that's a a [00:02:48] profound question that uh arouses a lot [00:02:50] of the biggest problems that have [00:02:52] happened with uh Israel's survival, [00:02:56] Israel's right to survival um in the [00:02:58] diplomatic scene and many of the people [00:03:00] who have taken that step historically uh [00:03:02] have done so for different reasons than [00:03:05] what we see happening with European [00:03:07] countries. Uh, I think we need to step [00:03:08] back and we need to do whatever it takes [00:03:11] to ensure that there is a real two-state [00:03:14] solution and that no one uh, not even [00:03:16] the likes of Netanyahu can veto the [00:03:19] international community's commitment to [00:03:21] a two-state solution where you have [00:03:23] Palestinians and Israelis living with [00:03:25] safety, with security, with rights. I [00:03:28] believe that can happen, but we have to [00:03:30] actually show some commitment to it. [00:03:32] >> Okay. Well, that meant absolutely [00:03:33] nothing. And it's the same kind of [00:03:35] double speak that they've been doing. Of [00:03:36] course, the framework of the two-state [00:03:38] solution is basically just a political [00:03:40] and narrative mechanism to keep kicking [00:03:41] the can down the road so they never [00:03:44] actually have to do anything about it. [00:03:46] And like a lot of the neoliberal [00:03:47] messaging coming out right now, if we [00:03:49] were going to put it into a nerd context [00:03:51] is like save the Empire from Darth [00:03:53] Vader, save the galaxy from the rebels. [00:03:56] It's like you guys are so lost. But as [00:03:58] society gets more and more militarized [00:04:00] and the Constitution moves closer and [00:04:02] closer to the paper shredder, we must [00:04:03] remind ourselves as we watch President [00:04:05] Trump deploy the Army National Guard to [00:04:07] wage a war on the homeless in Washington [00:04:09] DC here in America. Check this out. Um, [00:04:13] and check out his announcement from this [00:04:14] morning. [00:04:16] >> A historic action to [00:04:19] rescue our nation's capital from crime, [00:04:21] bloodshed, bedum, and squalor. and [00:04:24] worse. [00:04:26] This is Liberation Day in DC and we're [00:04:29] going to take our capital back. We're [00:04:31] taking it back under the authorities [00:04:34] vested. [00:04:35] >> Violent crime has is at a 30-year [00:04:38] all-time low in Washington DC. By the [00:04:40] way, [00:04:40] >> in me as the president of the United [00:04:42] States, I'm officially invoking section [00:04:44] 740 of the District of Columbia Home [00:04:47] Rule Act. You know what that is? and [00:04:50] placing the DC Metropolitan and Police [00:04:52] Department under direct federal control [00:04:55] and you'll be meeting the people that [00:04:57] will be directly involved with that. So, [00:05:01] this episode's really about Gaza, but I [00:05:02] wanted to take this one news item about [00:05:05] him calling in the National Guard to [00:05:06] wage a war on homeless homelessness in [00:05:09] Washington DC uh because it's all part [00:05:12] of the same class. This is not a result [00:05:14] of Trump's fascism. either this act or [00:05:17] what's happening in the Gaza Strip right [00:05:19] now. But it's also a result of the [00:05:21] Democratic party's capitulation. The DC [00:05:24] council just passed a budget in order to [00:05:27] protect themselves and their seats of [00:05:29] power from the wrath of the Trump [00:05:30] administration. What was in this budget? [00:05:33] They cut the child tax credit, zeroed it [00:05:35] out. They're kicking 27,000 people off [00:05:38] of their healthcare. They have no [00:05:39] vouchers, no vouchers for unhoused [00:05:41] individuals. And while they are making a [00:05:43] deal that is worth 2.2 2 billion with [00:05:45] the Washington Commanders, the local NFL [00:05:48] football team, in order to bring the [00:05:50] stadium back. Now, Muriel Bowser, the [00:05:52] Democratic mayor that is all over this [00:05:56] uh Democratically led city, also [00:05:58] stripped out protections for workers [00:05:59] within this budget, and the DC council [00:06:01] approved it. And also, she tried to [00:06:03] strip out sanctuary city status through [00:06:05] the budget, but it's not a budget item, [00:06:07] by the way. So I I said all that to say [00:06:10] that when you hear people simply [00:06:11] describing what is happening in DC, the [00:06:13] takeover in DC as something that is [00:06:15] purely at the feet of the Trump [00:06:17] administration, please know that they [00:06:19] are running cover for the Democratic [00:06:21] City Council and party at large. They [00:06:23] are running cover for Muriel Bowser, who [00:06:25] is now who is not a deer in the [00:06:27] headlights at this time, but an active [00:06:29] participant in the fascism that is [00:06:30] taking over the imperial capital. Same [00:06:33] thing with the Gaza Strip. Now that [00:06:35] Biden's no longer in power, the [00:06:36] Democrats are like, "We we we can't do [00:06:38] anything." Um, you know, that's we'll [00:06:40] just put Pete Buddhajed on Pod Save [00:06:43] America ran by former Obama speech [00:06:46] writers and he'll say a bunch of word [00:06:48] salad that means nothing. Okay? Because [00:06:50] when it all comes down to it, they are [00:06:52] in a big club, one big club, and you are [00:06:55] not in it. They will agree on police. [00:06:57] They'll agree on homelessness. They will [00:06:58] agree on foreign wars and the desolation [00:07:00] of Gaza. Which brings us to the [00:07:02] assassination of Al Jazer's last news [00:07:05] crew last night in Gaza. Here are some [00:07:08] initial reporting from the outlet [00:07:09] itself. [00:07:14] >> This is Alazer. Breaking news just [00:07:17] coming out. Sad breaking news out of [00:07:19] Gaza where Alazer journalist Anas al- [00:07:21] Sharif has just been killed in what [00:07:22] appears to be a targeted Israeli strike. [00:07:25] All of this according to the director of [00:07:27] the Alshifa hospital. Anas was killed [00:07:29] after a tent for journalists was hit [00:07:31] outside the main gate of the hospital. [00:07:33] The well-known Alazer correspondent [00:07:35] reported extensively from northern Gaza. [00:07:37] The 28-year-old was a key source of news [00:07:39] from Gaza City and the north for [00:07:41] international audiences since Israel's [00:07:43] war on the strip began some 22 months [00:07:46] ago. Al Jazzer Media Network had [00:07:49] recently denounced the Israeli military [00:07:50] for what it called a campaign of [00:07:52] incitement against SAS al- Sharif. [00:07:54] Alarif was one of the journalists. The [00:07:56] Israeli military accused of being a [00:07:58] member of Hamas's military wing. The UN [00:08:01] special reporter on the occupied [00:08:03] Palestinian territories. Franchesc [00:08:05] Galbanese has earlier denounced serious [00:08:07] threats against the Alazer journalist by [00:08:09] the Israeli army. And what's more is the [00:08:12] council for the protection of [00:08:13] journalists had also been concerned [00:08:15] about his safety. Hani Mahmood is on the [00:08:18] phone. [00:08:19] >> Yeah. So basically when what they refer [00:08:22] to as the campaign of incitement against [00:08:24] him, I'm just going to pull up what I [00:08:25] posted yesterday. So you may remember [00:08:28] this uh uh military intelligence product [00:08:32] put out by uh the IDF and I just said to [00:08:35] be clear um Israel put Anas on a death [00:08:39] list over a year ago with other [00:08:41] journalists, but he was protected by the [00:08:43] size of his platform. They tracked his [00:08:46] cell phone, his every move. They could [00:08:48] have killed him at any time. They only [00:08:49] chose to now because they determined the [00:08:51] information blowback from assassinating [00:08:54] him would be less than if he were alive [00:08:56] to record the upcoming invasion of Gaza [00:09:00] city. That's it. That's why now um yeah [00:09:05] there's nothing really beyond that. So [00:09:07] let's get into it. So since then Israeli [00:09:11] has been in overdrive trying to [00:09:12] discredit him and claim he was Hamas as [00:09:14] if anyone cares anymore. I mean, he did [00:09:16] make a few posts on his private Telegram [00:09:19] channel that seemed to be in support of [00:09:21] armed resistance, but you know, [00:09:23] whatever. Everyone's tired of this crap. [00:09:25] U and wag the sloppiest propaganda smear [00:09:28] campaign I've ever seen. Because they [00:09:30] didn't expect so much blowback from [00:09:31] this, they're scrambling and putting out [00:09:33] the worst information operations product [00:09:35] we have ever seen. You know, it's been a [00:09:37] cornerstone of Israel's genocidal [00:09:39] campaign to lie every single day about [00:09:41] everything possible and to come up with [00:09:42] the most lunatic excuses possible. You [00:09:45] know, this is the military that lied [00:09:46] about massacring the ambulance workers [00:09:48] in Rafa. They lied about GHF massacres. [00:09:50] They lied about the Shifa hospital, the [00:09:52] Flower Massacre, beheaded babies, Hamad [00:09:55] Hospital where terrorist shift rotations [00:09:56] at the hospital turned out to be a [00:09:58] calendar. Uh the world central kitchen [00:10:01] workers, babies and ovens, white [00:10:02] phosphorus on civilians, Sinoir [00:10:04] surrounding himself with 20 hostages in [00:10:06] a tunnel, killing women and children [00:10:08] with white flags and their own hostages [00:10:10] who had white flags who escaped their [00:10:12] captives. Hindra job etc etc. We could [00:10:15] all go on you know we could talk about [00:10:17] the parable of the boy who cried wolf. [00:10:19] There are two readings of that. One is [00:10:21] don't lie because no one will believe [00:10:22] you. Another one is to never tell the [00:10:25] same lie twice so people still believe [00:10:27] you. Either way there are no more lies [00:10:29] left to tell. But western media keeps on [00:10:31] towing the line of abject falsehood. [00:10:34] What does this mean for journalism? to [00:10:36] discuss this. We are joined by Tara [00:10:40] Sutton, who um you know who is an [00:10:42] award-winning filmmaker and journalist [00:10:44] who tells intimate stories about people [00:10:45] living in extraordinary circumstances, [00:10:47] focusing mostly on women and children. [00:10:49] Over the last 20 years, she has covered [00:10:51] the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the [00:10:53] Syrian refugee crisis, famine, the [00:10:55] aftermath of genocide. Uh she was only [00:10:58] uh she was the only unmbedded western [00:11:00] reporter to enter Fallujah, Iraq during [00:11:02] the siege in 2004. and her Guardian [00:11:05] Films Channel 4 documentary Fallujah [00:11:08] Forensics, which exposed war crimes [00:11:10] committed by the US military, won the [00:11:11] Amnesty International Award for News. [00:11:14] She's appeared as a commentator on [00:11:15] Alazer, CBC, BBC, and speaks [00:11:19] internationally on the plight of [00:11:20] refugees in the Middle East. Uh she's [00:11:22] also a founding board member of the [00:11:23] collateral repair project with assists [00:11:25] the most vulnerable refugees of war in [00:11:28] Aman Jordan and is a board member of the [00:11:31] Trudeau Center for Peace and Conflict [00:11:32] Studies at the University of Toronto. [00:11:34] Thanks so much for coming on. [00:11:36] >> Thanks so much for having me. [00:11:39] >> All right, let's get into this. Um [00:11:41] >> fan of yours, so I'm really happy to be [00:11:43] here. [00:11:44] >> No, I really appreciate that and thanks [00:11:46] for taking the time. [00:11:47] >> Enraged by everything going on. like [00:11:49] it's just it's just beyond belief and [00:11:52] every time you think you've seen the [00:11:55] worst it keeps getting worse. Um [00:11:57] >> yeah and I think that's a that's a good [00:11:59] place to start. So we talked about this [00:12:01] last night when we were setting up this [00:12:03] episode and I I suppose my first [00:12:05] question is after covering Iraq [00:12:07] >> Mhm. [00:12:08] >> which was a brutal urban warfare [00:12:12] landscape. uh you know in the early days [00:12:14] of the war when it was like the hottest [00:12:16] um is any of this actually surprising to [00:12:19] you? I think you kind of already [00:12:20] answered this or is this sort of like an [00:12:22] escalation in violence and like the [00:12:24] colonial colonialization or the [00:12:27] coloniality of like the western [00:12:28] newsroom? Uh from my military experience [00:12:31] is definitely more violent than anything [00:12:32] we did. [00:12:33] >> Um but are you surprised by the media [00:12:36] coverage of this? [00:12:38] >> Um there's a lot to unpack here. First [00:12:41] of all, I would just say that definitely [00:12:44] newsrooms are colonial. I mean, if you [00:12:46] think about where foreign [00:12:47] correspondents, like where it came from, [00:12:49] it was kind of like a man in Cairo, you [00:12:51] know what I mean? Where some guy was [00:12:53] just like sending out a tlex about what [00:12:55] was happening and then that field just [00:12:57] grew and grew and grew in a way that is [00:13:00] really no longer necessary as we've seen [00:13:02] in Gaza. There's plenty of people who [00:13:04] live there who speak the language who [00:13:06] can do that job very well. Um, and I [00:13:09] think that one of the reasons [00:13:12] why, [00:13:14] um, you know, the prop Palestine [00:13:16] movement grew so quickly was the fact [00:13:18] that Palestinian journalists were [00:13:20] showing you what the aftermath of a bomb [00:13:24] falling really looks like. Um, and I [00:13:26] think that the colonial or Western news [00:13:29] media has always really sanitized that, [00:13:31] right? So people would never get to see [00:13:32] it. And I think that one of the other [00:13:35] amazing things about it was that we [00:13:37] didn't have like journalists like the [00:13:39] big names coming in and bigfooting [00:13:41] everybody out and sort of you know [00:13:43] presenting these stories that are again [00:13:45] it's like one distance of of remove [00:13:48] right when you see people who are just [00:13:51] right there it brings you right there. [00:13:53] And so I feel like in a way um the [00:13:56] general public has or at least people [00:13:58] who are paying attention and are [00:14:00] following Gazins are able to kind of see [00:14:02] what I saw as a reporter, right, which [00:14:04] is the incredible kindness of people and [00:14:06] the utter horror that is really hard to [00:14:09] get across um when you have this sort of [00:14:12] filtering mechanism [00:14:14] which is mainstream media. Um, and then [00:14:17] I also I mean nothing would have [00:14:20] prepared me for the amount of [00:14:21] journalists that have been targeted. [00:14:23] It's just I I can't wrap my head around [00:14:26] it. It's just too big to kind of be able [00:14:28] to properly [00:14:30] uh focus on. Obviously with Hosam [00:14:32] Shabbat and Anas al- Sharif, I have been [00:14:35] watching those guys for 22 months and so [00:14:37] it's really feels very personal to see [00:14:40] people that you become so you feel [00:14:43] so uh attached to be murdered. Um and [00:14:47] the other thing I think is important to [00:14:49] point out is they weren't murdered in [00:14:51] the field, right? Like obviously being a [00:14:54] conflict reporter is a dangerous job. We [00:14:56] all know that, right? like you can be in [00:14:58] the wrong place at the wrong time. And [00:14:59] in Iraq, in the beginning, that was like [00:15:00] your fear of death is like, "Oh, I'm [00:15:02] going to be somewhere in a roadside [00:15:04] bomb's going to go off or I'm going to [00:15:05] get caught in the crossfire." It's not [00:15:07] I'm going to be sitting in the tent that [00:15:09] is set up for me to do my job and that's [00:15:12] going to be bombed. You know, it's sort [00:15:14] of like the the hospital bombing, [00:15:17] like you used to think hospitals were a [00:15:19] safe place. And every conflict, there's [00:15:21] always media tents. There's places where [00:15:22] everybody can file from and plug in [00:15:25] their laptops and get internet. And I'm [00:15:26] sure in Gaza it was a lot worse than [00:15:28] anything I've ever worked out of just [00:15:30] because of the situation. But it's still [00:15:32] a known supposedly safe area in a [00:15:35] conflict zone. And that's just been [00:15:37] destroyed. [00:15:38] >> Yeah. I mean, a lot of things that were [00:15:40] huge scandals during the unfortunately [00:15:42] named and ill- fated global war on [00:15:44] terror that were atrocious. Uh Obama's [00:15:47] signing off on bombing the wedding [00:15:49] convoy in Yemen. Uh killed a bunch of [00:15:52] civilians. None of the quoteunquote [00:15:53] al-Qaeda guys that were there, they all [00:15:54] apparently got away. Uh the Kundus [00:15:57] hospital bombing in Afghanistan in 2015, [00:16:00] that was uh Medssonia, [00:16:02] Doctors Without Borders, that was a huge [00:16:04] scandal and involved a cover up. And [00:16:06] then from Iraq, um [00:16:09] the Wikileaks Apache helicopter tape [00:16:13] where um a number of Alazer journalists [00:16:17] uh who had like an extended camera. So [00:16:19] the the pilot was asking for the green [00:16:21] light to engage because he said it was [00:16:23] an RPG. It clearly wasn't an RPG. [00:16:25] >> Um so that was a huge scandal. Uh and [00:16:29] >> there were scandals where it's like none [00:16:30] of this stuff is a scandal, right? I [00:16:33] mean the America seems better able to [00:16:35] the American media seems better able to [00:16:38] report on its own country's scandals and [00:16:40] hold them to account than anything that [00:16:42] they're doing with Israel, [00:16:46] >> which is, you know, very curious. Now I [00:16:49] I definitely want to talk about uh [00:16:51] something we we discussed last night and [00:16:53] that was like this war on Alazer in [00:16:55] general. Um because when I was in uh you [00:17:00] know early 2010s I I was just told even [00:17:04] though like you know I was plugged into [00:17:06] intelligence circles I had a top secret [00:17:07] security clearance [00:17:09] >> like military people even if they think [00:17:12] they're smart and they have access to [00:17:13] like all this information they exist in [00:17:14] an echo chamber and nobody really reads [00:17:17] the local news uh because you know [00:17:18] you're told it's propaganda and Alazer [00:17:20] was like the pinnacle of that and I [00:17:23] think like one of my things that uh kind [00:17:25] of really prejudices [00:17:26] against me is like they did file a [00:17:28] couple of like reports about what like [00:17:31] special operations forces were doing in [00:17:32] Afghanistan and I knew it was incorrect [00:17:35] but that like prejudiced me for years [00:17:37] and they're the only ones and they're [00:17:38] supposed to be like out of Qatar which [00:17:40] is a comprador state with like the US [00:17:42] government and empire but they're [00:17:44] actually doing reporting um so I don't [00:17:47] know like what was your experience with [00:17:49] like Alazer and how people [00:17:51] >> I mean first of all when I was in Iraq [00:17:53] Alazer didn't exist it hadn't They [00:17:56] hadn't done their English channel yet. [00:17:57] It only was uh broadcasting in Arabic. [00:18:00] And it was something that was always on [00:18:02] in the background. And it would always [00:18:04] shock me because, you know, in our house [00:18:06] that I lived in, we would have like [00:18:08] Alazer on one channel and then we would [00:18:10] have, you know, American news on another [00:18:12] channel and the Alazer was always [00:18:14] showing exactly the type of things that [00:18:17] people are seeing now, which is like [00:18:18] shredded bodies and people being pulled [00:18:20] out of burning buildings, right? So, I [00:18:22] think that [00:18:24] >> I don't I mean your story, I'm sure I'd [00:18:27] like to hear about that when you said [00:18:29] they were incorrect, but I think that [00:18:31] when they're just showing the aftermath [00:18:33] of people's violence, I don't think [00:18:35] that's propaganda. I think it's just [00:18:37] that they don't want people to see that. [00:18:39] So, yeah, first Alazer was bombed in [00:18:41] Kabell in 2001 by the Americans. Alazer [00:18:45] was bombed in 2003. their their um [00:18:49] anchor Tar Aub who is also Palestinian [00:18:52] was blown up when he was on the roof [00:18:54] getting ready to go live. Um when I was [00:18:57] in Fallujah in 2003, the only [00:19:00] broadcaster in there was Al Jazzer and [00:19:04] when the there was a ceasefire after [00:19:06] about two weeks of fighting and the one [00:19:09] of the conditions of the ceasefire was [00:19:12] that their uh the Alazer reporter leave [00:19:17] because nobody else was inside and so [00:19:20] everybody was picking up the Alazer [00:19:22] feed. So that footage was being shown on [00:19:25] um you know all over the world and at [00:19:29] one point during a press conference I [00:19:31] remember somebody asked Brigadier [00:19:33] General Mark Kimtt about you know the [00:19:35] fact that Alazier was showing all of [00:19:38] these civilian casualties and his [00:19:40] response was change the channel change [00:19:44] the channel to a legitimate [00:19:46] authoritative news channel. In other [00:19:48] words, one of ours. And I think that if [00:19:51] you think about that, that just shows [00:19:52] you how much they are aware that their [00:19:56] media is somewhat controlled. You know, [00:19:59] our change the channel to our media. [00:20:00] Don't believe this. It's like, you know, [00:20:02] people keep saying, don't believe your [00:20:03] eyes. Don't believe your ears. Don't [00:20:05] believe the people who are from the [00:20:07] region who speak the language. Don't [00:20:09] believe what they're seeing. You know, [00:20:11] the idea that somehow they're making all [00:20:13] of this stuff up is just so insane and [00:20:15] it's really pervasive. I mean, I made a [00:20:18] film in Fallujah. I was telling you a [00:20:21] bit about this last night. Uh, this was [00:20:23] before the battle. I was in there trying [00:20:24] to figure out like, why are all the [00:20:25] insurgents coming from this area? And it [00:20:27] was like, oh, guess what? You know, um, [00:20:30] the Marines opened up on a protest and [00:20:32] killed 17 people. You know, there was [00:20:34] it's not just like, oh, why does, you [00:20:36] know, everybody hates us. There's a [00:20:38] reason. Um, and we found a guy who told [00:20:40] us that he had been detained for 29 days [00:20:43] and he talked about being beaten and he [00:20:45] talked about being kept in something [00:20:46] called the mouse house, which was like a [00:20:48] small cage. And he showed us his, you [00:20:52] know, his uh, tags and his paperwork [00:20:55] that showed he had been detained. And [00:20:57] when I I was doing the I've always been [00:20:59] freelance, but this was the BBC picked [00:21:02] this up. And after like when I was [00:21:04] showing the editors my report, they were [00:21:08] like, "Oh, well, you don't possibly [00:21:09] believe him, do you?" Right about this [00:21:11] Iraqi guy. But when and I had to fight [00:21:15] to be like, "Yeah, I believe him." Like, [00:21:17] "Why is he saying words in English that [00:21:18] he can't say in any other language? Why [00:21:21] does he have the tags?" And also like, [00:21:23] "Why can't you believe that American [00:21:25] soldiers could be violent?" Meanwhile, [00:21:27] I, you know, we also spent time with the [00:21:29] US military and we have a guy, for [00:21:31] example, saying, you know, he went in [00:21:32] and six of his guys had been wounded and [00:21:35] one had been killed. They didn't say [00:21:37] like, "Check that out." You know what I [00:21:38] mean? So, there's this sort of like [00:21:41] colonial mentality that like the natives [00:21:43] can't possibly be telling the truth and [00:21:45] we have to hold them to like extra [00:21:47] special account. [00:21:50] >> I mean, I actually think that's entirely [00:21:53] true. Um, just to kind of bring this [00:21:55] home too, like every journalist that's [00:21:58] been killed in Gaza has had to be the [00:22:01] perfect victim. [00:22:03] >> Mhm. Yeah. [00:22:03] >> And you know, because like the Israeli [00:22:06] society is obsessed with, you know, [00:22:08] things like rape and physical [00:22:10] domination, and that's like Darvo stuff, [00:22:12] like what what did you do to like [00:22:14] deserve getting drone stroke or like [00:22:17] having a 2,000lb bomb uh dropped on you? [00:22:20] So, uh, when it comes to Anas, if we can [00:22:23] just pull up this like Nazi platform. [00:22:26] Um, basically [00:22:29] it's all full of this guy, you know, [00:22:31] former hostage fires back at Sky News. [00:22:34] Press the press vest isn't a get out of [00:22:36] jail free pass for terrorists. They're [00:22:38] bringing up uh some tweets that he made [00:22:41] uh you know on on Telegram or on his [00:22:43] Telegram channel, you know, in support [00:22:46] of, you know, Palestinian armed [00:22:47] resistance, which I don't think [00:22:49] international law is a thing. It's [00:22:51] clearly not. So, we're not going to like [00:22:53] harp on how it's supposed to be [00:22:54] enshrined there. [00:22:56] >> Um but basically, you know, if you're [00:22:59] not the perfect peaceloving Palestinian, [00:23:03] you deserve essentially to die. And the [00:23:05] thing about the perfect victim, [00:23:06] >> if you are the perfect peaceloving Pal [00:23:08] Palestinian, you're going to die anyway, [00:23:10] right? [00:23:10] >> Because the perfect victim is like a [00:23:12] movable goalpost. And they don't even uh [00:23:15] attempt to like abide by it because you [00:23:18] know, you have ministers who are in [00:23:20] charge of military and foreign policy [00:23:23] saying there are no innocents in Gaza. [00:23:26] So it's just like what is this [00:23:28] propaganda push? Exactly. And and I [00:23:31] think like as a journalist who's you [00:23:33] know I mean you know worked as an [00:23:36] independent with like some major [00:23:37] outlets. I know you published a uh an [00:23:41] article in the Guardian uh after we got [00:23:43] arrested in the Senate uh about like [00:23:45] vets you know being disenchanted with [00:23:48] Israel and wanting to pressure the [00:23:50] government to stop arming them. Um, I I [00:23:52] was just like wondering what [00:23:55] like like how like institutionally [00:23:58] like like all these journalists could be [00:24:00] like, "Okay, we're just going to tow the [00:24:02] line with the New York Times editorial [00:24:04] board." Um, like [00:24:06] >> yeah, [00:24:07] >> that's a tricky one for me because I [00:24:09] have an authority problem. So, I've [00:24:11] always been independent. So, I haven't [00:24:14] worked within a journalistic [00:24:16] institution, right? So I'm not like [00:24:17] sitting and I I actually don't think [00:24:19] most of the journalists that are [00:24:21] actually going out and doing reporting [00:24:22] are the ones who were sitting in [00:24:24] meetings that may be happening about [00:24:25] what they can say and what they can't [00:24:27] say. [00:24:28] >> Um but I have been like so disappointed [00:24:32] and shocked with so many of my [00:24:34] colleagues that I you know they're not [00:24:36] my friends but just people that I know [00:24:39] um who haven't said anything about this. [00:24:42] In fact, it's I'm like at this point I'm [00:24:44] more aware of people who have been [00:24:46] speaking out. Do you know what I mean? [00:24:48] Than the ones who haven't. [00:24:49] >> Because it's so rare. [00:24:50] >> What? Yeah. Because it's so rare. Um I [00:24:54] think that [00:24:56] it's it's tricky. I go back and forth, [00:24:58] right? Because so many news channels are [00:25:00] problematic and then it's also like they [00:25:03] have these huge platforms. So it's like [00:25:06] where you know there's a journalist I've [00:25:09] always really admired Awa Damon who [00:25:10] worked for CNN who left now and she has [00:25:13] her own uh not for profofit inara where [00:25:15] she helps uh children who have been [00:25:17] badly burned in conflict and she was [00:25:19] always their conflict reporter who would [00:25:21] go in and tell the civilian side of the [00:25:24] story. Right. [00:25:25] >> Well she was like the counterbalance to [00:25:28] all the other manufacturing cons consent [00:25:30] that went on. And so it's like, well, [00:25:32] should she not work for them because of [00:25:33] all the other crap that they put out or [00:25:35] is it important to at least have some of [00:25:39] the voice of, you know, the people who [00:25:42] are being injured uh coming across? But [00:25:45] I I don't [00:25:47] I mean I've had there's been like [00:25:50] pressure like as I said oh I remember an [00:25:52] argument I had with channel 4 about that [00:25:54] same Fallujah film where we were using [00:25:56] Alazer footage where an entire family [00:25:58] had been killed and I had put in like [00:26:01] five cuts of dead children and my edi [00:26:06] the editor who was in charge of the of [00:26:08] the news section said oh you can't put [00:26:11] all that in people don't want to see [00:26:12] that while they're having dinner and I [00:26:14] was just like what? [00:26:17] >> Sorry to inconvenience you about dead [00:26:19] families, [00:26:20] >> right? Like, and so we had this back and [00:26:22] forth and it ended up she wanted one and [00:26:24] we ended up with three. And I'm like, [00:26:26] how am I having this type of an [00:26:28] argument? [00:26:29] Um, and you're publishing like a [00:26:32] hard-hitting piece that accuses the US [00:26:34] military of war crimes, but somehow [00:26:37] something inside of you is is stopping [00:26:39] this. And I do think people have this [00:26:41] internalized propaganda who have grown [00:26:44] up in the west as well. So I think that [00:26:46] a lot of there's a lot of like [00:26:48] selfcensorship from people's upbringing [00:26:51] which I saw a lot in American [00:26:53] journalists in Iraq. [00:26:54] >> Yeah. And you know it's kind of like you [00:26:56] know we want to make these hard-hitting [00:26:57] pieces that are going to get a lot of [00:26:58] engagement and save the paper but we [00:27:01] kind of want it to also remain like in [00:27:03] the ether not rooted into anything like [00:27:05] that could affect people on an emotional [00:27:07] level like images of dead children. [00:27:09] Yeah. [00:27:10] >> And that's kind of what we're seeing [00:27:11] coming out of Gaza uh every day. You [00:27:15] know, you know, some of the worst [00:27:17] massacres in Iraq or the worst bombing [00:27:21] uh mishaps or intentional haps in [00:27:23] Afghanistan [00:27:25] that like made international news like [00:27:28] >> like once every few years are now [00:27:31] happening like every day. Every day. Um [00:27:34] and [00:27:34] >> and people are seeing it. Again, I think [00:27:36] that that is like I can't overstate how [00:27:38] important I think that is and why again [00:27:40] we all owe such an enormous debt of [00:27:43] gratitude to all the Palestinian [00:27:45] journalists and just regular people who [00:27:47] are showing us what is happening in [00:27:49] their lives because I don't think that [00:27:51] without them there there would not be [00:27:53] any of the sort of push back that there [00:27:55] is. People would just be like it's like [00:27:57] quietly going on in the background huge [00:28:00] numbers of people dying you know. [00:28:02] >> Yeah. Before we get into like how do you [00:28:05] how do we think that this will that this [00:28:07] quote unquote conflict live stream [00:28:09] genocide. Sorry guys. Um [00:28:12] I'm just using the neoliberal verbiage, [00:28:15] you know. [00:28:15] >> No, I think we I I pretty sure we all [00:28:17] know where you stand on that. [00:28:19] >> Yeah. So um before we talk about like [00:28:21] what this has done to j journalism on an [00:28:23] institutional level maybe um I I just [00:28:26] kind of wanted to uh break down for the [00:28:28] audience real quick about you know [00:28:31] despite all the propaganda because my [00:28:33] whole thing the reason I started doing [00:28:34] this was specifically to debunk military [00:28:38] propaganda. So, I am going to talk about [00:28:41] the specifics of this kinetic strike uh [00:28:44] that happened and we're going to do it [00:28:46] by pulling up a not there's a lot more [00:28:50] graphic videos. This is going on YouTube [00:28:52] and plus we don't need to be seeing that [00:28:55] um again. But here here's the thing, [00:28:58] okay, before we get into this. Um, my [00:29:02] expertise in this, uh, before I became [00:29:04] very much anti-war, [00:29:05] anti-interventionist, I transitioned [00:29:08] from like an assault role in my like [00:29:11] special operations unit into more like [00:29:13] an intelligence role, which is me meant [00:29:14] like I was in the tactical operations [00:29:16] center during the day, then I'd go out [00:29:19] at night with the strike force to be [00:29:20] like the intel guy essentially. But a [00:29:22] lot of the times, and I didn't work [00:29:24] directly on drone strikes. They were [00:29:27] like in another cubicle section in the [00:29:29] talk, the tactical operations center. [00:29:32] But of course, I'd be paying attention [00:29:33] to like what they were doing and how [00:29:35] they were doing things because if they [00:29:37] weren't able to get like a high value [00:29:38] target and eliminate it, that means [00:29:41] you'd have to spend send in like a [00:29:43] ranger platoon or a SEAL team. So that [00:29:45] means like if they weren't able to do it [00:29:47] that that means I'd have to go out that [00:29:48] night and [00:29:49] >> okay [00:29:50] >> interrogate the guy [00:29:52] >> and try to determine who he was [00:29:54] >> so we could you know bring him back for [00:29:56] questioning and stuff. So I was always [00:29:58] like really paying attention to like [00:30:00] what the kinetic strike targeting cycle [00:30:02] was. So, um, [00:30:05] basically [00:30:07] what they do and how they do it, it [00:30:11] hasn't really changed because military [00:30:13] equipment like hellfire missiles, [00:30:15] drones, they take like decades to [00:30:18] develop. Like some of our most advanced [00:30:19] weapons and weapon systems were [00:30:21] developed in the 80s, but because it [00:30:23] takes so much time, it's the same [00:30:24] equipment that they're using now that we [00:30:27] were using uh back in like 2013. Okay. [00:30:30] Uh so nothing's really changed. The only [00:30:33] thing that has really changed [00:30:35] >> is the implementation of artificial [00:30:37] intelligence into the intelligence [00:30:38] synchronization cycle. So you have fewer [00:30:42] people that have to monitor pe uh [00:30:43] things. So one of the main re ways to [00:30:45] track people is through their cell phone [00:30:47] signals. Okay. All journalists have cell [00:30:50] phones and they know they're being [00:30:52] tracked and I've made a lot of videos [00:30:54] about how this happens. Uh usually like [00:30:57] 10 years ago when I was in, you'd have [00:31:00] to have a person on it. Um you know, [00:31:02] constantly monitoring a bunch of these [00:31:03] like signals and like it's overlaid on [00:31:06] like a really special version of like [00:31:07] Google Earth. Uh so you can see where [00:31:09] all these handsets are and like if [00:31:11] they're converging together. Now you [00:31:13] don't need as many people to actually [00:31:16] um evaluate that. You know, you can just [00:31:18] have an AI program. But basically what [00:31:20] they're doing is they're looking at all [00:31:21] these journalists that they killed uh [00:31:23] with their cell phones. And I'm not 100% [00:31:26] sure on this, but this is how it how it [00:31:28] works. Same equipment, same targeting [00:31:30] process. Um, someone was looking at all [00:31:33] their cell phones and they're seeing [00:31:35] that they're all coll-located [00:31:38] in the tent. All right. And then once [00:31:41] they were all coll-located, the entire [00:31:43] team, somebody in the talk, tactical [00:31:46] operations center in the targeting cell [00:31:48] was like, "Okay, green light, drop it." [00:31:51] Uh, so that's most likely what happened. [00:31:53] Again, this is supposition based on my [00:31:55] experience, but this kind of how it [00:31:57] works. So, it was a conscious decision [00:31:59] >> to wait till they were all together one [00:32:02] fell swoop. And here is the main thing. [00:32:04] >> All right. So, after all these years, [00:32:08] uh, I'm sorry, like almost two years of [00:32:10] watching this, we've seen incredible [00:32:12] battle damage, you know, and most of [00:32:15] Gaza is completely devastated, right? [00:32:18] Look at this. There's no crater. There's [00:32:20] no destroyed buildings. It's just the [00:32:23] tent which was uh blown apart by the [00:32:27] blast. This was not a bomb. This was [00:32:31] most likely something like a hellfire [00:32:33] missile shot from a drone. Um hellfire [00:32:36] missiles are precision munitions. Um [00:32:38] they can be shot in a certain way to [00:32:40] like only take one guy out in a group of [00:32:42] people or the entire group. There's not [00:32:44] a crater because you can set it to air [00:32:46] detonate. So like a couple feet off the [00:32:48] ground. [00:32:49] >> Okay. Uh, so if you don't see a crater, [00:32:51] that's probably because they could have [00:32:53] put a setting so it could air burst down [00:32:54] and send the shrapnel down into [00:32:56] everybody. [00:32:57] >> Um, yeah. So that was a precision [00:32:59] munitions because I've been tracking [00:33:01] this since the start. [00:33:03] >> The bunker buster bombs are to clear out [00:33:05] Gaza. The precision munitions are to [00:33:07] kill journalists and aid workers. [00:33:10] >> And one of the reasons you want to use [00:33:11] precision missiles is because it's [00:33:13] easier to make sure that they're [00:33:14] actually dead. Because if you drop a [00:33:16] 2,000lb bomb, everything's destroyed. [00:33:18] So, did you get the guy? Did you not? [00:33:21] Did they somehow mistak miraculously [00:33:23] survive? But right now, after the drone [00:33:25] strike happened, they have a thermal [00:33:26] imaging [00:33:28] >> suite which you could actually monitor [00:33:30] people's body temperature. So, as the [00:33:32] body temperature is reducing, you could [00:33:34] be like, "Okay, make an assessment. That [00:33:36] guy's probably not alive anymore." So, [00:33:39] >> you can do what's called a um aerial [00:33:42] battle damage assessment. So, right [00:33:43] after the drone strike there, that drone [00:33:45] was still in a holding pattern observing [00:33:48] all the casualties getting um you know [00:33:50] taken care of by first responders and [00:33:53] they made a determination. So, there's [00:33:54] no doubt in my mind [00:33:56] >> that this was absolutely a targeted [00:33:58] strike because every time they kill [00:33:59] journalists, they don't use bombs, they [00:34:00] use these precision weapons. [00:34:02] >> Well, I think the other part of it is [00:34:03] it's like a psychological operation on [00:34:06] their colleagues, right? they have to [00:34:08] pull the still they can see it's their [00:34:11] colleagues and they're pulling them out [00:34:13] like [00:34:14] >> you know that's part of I think their [00:34:15] sadistic nature um is to terrorize [00:34:19] everybody around them right like they're [00:34:21] trying I I think they probably haven't [00:34:23] realized how committed Palestinians are [00:34:25] and so they're trying to scare them and [00:34:27] thinking you know if we show them what's [00:34:30] happened to their colleagues maybe [00:34:31] they're going to stop [00:34:34] >> I mean if they haven't after two years I [00:34:36] don't know like [00:34:37] >> exactly Right. [00:34:38] >> And you know, I'm in touch with [00:34:39] journalists in Gaza and some of them are [00:34:42] like 19 years old and they just started [00:34:45] two months ago and they got like [00:34:47] >> 800 followers on Instagram and like [00:34:50] >> 30 followers on Twitter. But like it's [00:34:52] just it's kind of like Hamas or like any [00:34:55] resistance group within the strip. Like [00:34:56] >> you don't need training to be a [00:34:58] journalist. You just actually have to [00:34:59] like want to tell the truth and also to [00:35:02] be there. And it's like you're gonna [00:35:04] you're either going to go and if you're [00:35:05] an angry kid because they've created a [00:35:07] whole new acronym, wounded child, no [00:35:10] surviving family, well, you're going to [00:35:12] become a journalist or you're going to [00:35:13] join a an armed group or you're going to [00:35:16] do something um with a lot of pissed-off [00:35:18] young men and women as well. [00:35:21] >> So, um this is they're they're just [00:35:24] going to keep doing this. But that is a [00:35:25] good point about the psychological [00:35:26] operation. You know, we're not going to [00:35:28] destroy the bodies because you need to [00:35:30] recover them. And the thing that just [00:35:32] killed me yesterday is I don't know if [00:35:34] you realize but one of Anas's best [00:35:36] friend is another journalist. He's [00:35:38] called [00:35:38] >> Wada [00:35:39] >> and his wife has you you know what's the [00:35:43] disease? It's like it has an acronym. I [00:35:46] can't remember exactly what it's called [00:35:48] but there are increasing cases of it [00:35:50] happening in Gaza and essentially you [00:35:52] just die in 10 days. It attacks your [00:35:54] nervous system. So this guy has been for [00:35:56] the last three days he just for the [00:35:59] first time he was like I'm not talking [00:36:01] I'm not reporting I'm telling you about [00:36:02] my wife she has this thing they're [00:36:05] telling me with the doctors say if she [00:36:06] doesn't get medicine within 10 days [00:36:08] she's going to die there's like a [00:36:10] picture of him she's not even in the [00:36:12] hospital she's on a bed outside of the [00:36:14] hospital and so yesterday morning he [00:36:18] posted that like he got medicine for her [00:36:21] because he you know everybody was [00:36:23] talking about it. Somehow medicine got [00:36:26] in to the Jordanian Field Hospital and [00:36:28] he was so happy and he was just like, I [00:36:30] have this medicine that's saving my [00:36:32] wife's life. So you imagine you're going [00:36:34] through four days thinking your wife is [00:36:36] going to die and you're going to be left [00:36:37] with three little kids. You finally get [00:36:40] relief from that and then your best [00:36:42] friend is like blown up. Like I just [00:36:45] couldn't I was like how much can [00:36:46] somebody take in a in a day? And that [00:36:49] was another thing that I think I know [00:36:51] what I so appreciated you when I first [00:36:53] saw you um talking about you know how [00:36:57] you could tell because of the munitions [00:36:59] that they were using and the way that [00:37:00] they were using them that this was not [00:37:01] normal. And for me it was things like it [00:37:04] is not normal for a journalist to be [00:37:07] this is in the first week driving in a [00:37:09] car holding two bleeding babies. It is [00:37:12] not normal for journalists to go into [00:37:14] hospitals and see their family members. [00:37:16] Like to me that was why it was so [00:37:18] clearly genocidal [00:37:21] >> from that type of information. Like that [00:37:23] just isn't [00:37:24] a normal conflict in any way from sort [00:37:29] of the start. [00:37:31] >> Yeah. Uh, and this actually is a great [00:37:34] segue into my my kind of like what I [00:37:35] wanted to talk about last at the last [00:37:38] part of this was [00:37:40] other journalists who had served like in [00:37:42] the field like CNN's Clarissa Ward, you [00:37:44] know, she's been, you know, in covering [00:37:47] conflicts in West Asia, in the Middle [00:37:49] East for a long time. Like, how could [00:37:51] she not see what's going on? [00:37:54] >> I mean, I think for for people at that [00:37:57] level, there's a tremendous amount of [00:37:58] ego, right? like you're sort of like a [00:38:00] celebrity and also I think you know a [00:38:03] lot of journalists like that go into [00:38:05] work for think tanks afterward so [00:38:06] they're already sort of [00:38:08] >> maybe believing in the in the party [00:38:10] line. Um, and then the other thing is [00:38:12] she would want to be there, right? Like [00:38:15] I think as much as for all the problems [00:38:18] I have with the BBC and with CNN and [00:38:20] everything, there are producers who are [00:38:21] sitting there looking at all the footage [00:38:24] coming in and then shaping it into [00:38:26] documentaries and narratives like The [00:38:27] Doctors Under Fire, which the BBC [00:38:29] refused to publish, but they recently [00:38:31] did one on children being killed where [00:38:34] they sort of forensically um using [00:38:37] doctor testimonies and looking at, you [00:38:39] know, using footage and geollocating [00:38:42] everything, we're proving, okay, there [00:38:43] were soldiers here. This kid was here. [00:38:45] There's here's an X-ray of a bullet in [00:38:47] his head. And they're just, you know, [00:38:49] able to kind of investigate and prove [00:38:51] what is going on. And but those are the [00:38:54] producers whose face you're never going [00:38:55] to see their face, right? Whereas the [00:38:58] big onair personalities like they have [00:39:01] to go because it's they have to be [00:39:03] there, you know? They're not. And and [00:39:05] I'm sure part of that is their job [00:39:06] description, too, right? [00:39:08] >> Yeah. [00:39:08] >> Um [00:39:09] >> No, I um you know, it was funny. my [00:39:13] friend, the activist Rama Zayn, she [00:39:14] actually confronted uh Clarissa. [00:39:16] >> I love that. That was so amazing. And [00:39:18] it's so true. I'm like, this is how the [00:39:20] Arab world thinks. [00:39:21] >> Yeah. No, because like Clarissa Ward, [00:39:25] >> she she ducked taking mortar fire. There [00:39:28] were there was there was no rocket fire [00:39:29] in her, [00:39:30] >> you know. I used to I didn't do a lot of [00:39:32] like live reporting. I mean, [00:39:33] occasionally I would be called in [00:39:35] because they'd need some freelancer to [00:39:36] talk about it and some producer would [00:39:38] get my number. People would go on the [00:39:40] roof and put they put on their flack [00:39:42] jacket [00:39:44] >> to like go on air like you're standing [00:39:46] on a roof. Nobody's coming to get you, [00:39:49] right? Because they have to play up this [00:39:50] kind of like I'm a brave war reporter. [00:39:53] Like I actually remember seeing I can't [00:39:55] remember who it was in the green zone [00:39:57] like in so inside the convention center [00:39:59] which is where the US military would do [00:40:01] all of their press conferences. So to [00:40:03] get into the green zone at that point [00:40:04] you it was like going through nine [00:40:06] versions of airport security you know [00:40:09] like a cavity search like nothing was [00:40:12] getting in there and she was standing in [00:40:14] the convention center lit up with a flat [00:40:17] jacket on. I'm like, you don't need [00:40:18] that, honey. [00:40:20] you know, but it's it's there is a [00:40:22] certain amount of theater involved in in [00:40:26] you know, it's entertainment to a [00:40:28] certain extent [00:40:29] >> and that is kind of what I wanted to get [00:40:31] into like how has now now that we have [00:40:35] access to what's actually going on on [00:40:37] the ground in a way that's unprecedented [00:40:40] uh before like how how do how is [00:40:43] mainstream media going to reconcile this [00:40:45] new age where you know people are losing [00:40:47] confidence in them and you know we also [00:40:49] talked about the US government last [00:40:50] night like they're they're putting these [00:40:53] narratives forward um you know and that [00:40:56] a lot of reporters will actually reflect [00:41:00] or pass on or perpetuate because you [00:41:02] know there's something to be said for [00:41:03] access journalism you want access to [00:41:05] powerful people you have to say what [00:41:07] they want you to say um you know put [00:41:10] forward but it it's not really working [00:41:12] anymore and we we [00:41:13] >> you need access to powerful people [00:41:15] because powerful people mostly are going [00:41:17] to lie and they can just put it out in a [00:41:20] press release. Like, sorry, that's just [00:41:21] an aside, but like I think having access [00:41:24] to the disenfranchised is a lot more [00:41:26] important if you want to be a reporter, [00:41:27] but [00:41:28] >> yeah. Well, you know, again, [00:41:30] >> yeah, they do have to do that. [00:41:31] >> Yeah. So, I don't know. And it just [00:41:33] seems like the administration, both [00:41:35] Democrats and Republicans, you know, are [00:41:37] kind of like doubling down and being [00:41:39] like, "Okay, yeah, well, you know, we're [00:41:41] lying about this. This is horrible, but [00:41:43] you know what? Shut up. We're going to [00:41:45] do it anyways." Um, [00:41:47] >> they are going to do it anyway. That was [00:41:48] a sad thing I kind of saw in Iraq, [00:41:50] right? Like as a [00:41:51] >> young journalist thinking like, "Oh my [00:41:54] god, I'm gonna expose all these things [00:41:55] and it's going to change something." And [00:41:57] then just like it didn't [ __ ] change [00:41:59] a thing. It it made a record. Do you [00:42:02] know what I mean? Like there's proof, [00:42:04] >> but it didn't change anything. Like I [00:42:05] feel like when they know they're going [00:42:06] to do a crime, they're going to finish [00:42:08] the crime. And until now, I actually I [00:42:10] always thought Iraq was like the [00:42:12] greatest crime I would see in my [00:42:13] lifetime. And now I'm like, "Oh, this [00:42:16] one's even bigger and worse and [00:42:19] sociopathic on top of it." Because I [00:42:20] don't think that either the wars in Iraq [00:42:22] or Afghanistan were genocidal. It was [00:42:25] definitely a lack of concern for human [00:42:27] civilian life, but it wasn't there [00:42:29] wasn't this seething hatred for every [00:42:31] single person. I don't know. You were in [00:42:32] the military. Did you feel that your [00:42:34] comrades were kind of like I'm sure they [00:42:37] called them like Hajis and towel heads [00:42:39] and bad guys, but did they think every [00:42:41] child was a potential threat? [00:42:44] No, actually, you know, some people [00:42:46] might might not believe this, but like [00:42:49] >> um my my my platoon never killed anyone [00:42:53] that didn't have a gun [00:42:54] >> actively in hand. Like I mean, look, [00:42:57] look, I I'll be I'll be serious. Like a [00:42:59] every fire team had a drop gun just in [00:43:02] case. Uh [00:43:03] >> okay. [00:43:04] >> Yeah. So that was that was some sketchy [00:43:05] cop [ __ ] but it never actually happened [00:43:08] luckily. subtle but um no it wasn't an [00:43:12] institutional it like that's that's what [00:43:13] genocide is at this level it's an [00:43:15] institutionalized policy targeting a [00:43:17] single group of people we were targeting [00:43:19] foreign fighters coming from Pakistan [00:43:22] and Saudi Arabia and the Gulf [00:43:25] >> you know um you know we weren't going to [00:43:26] go like you know go into this village [00:43:29] and like do some mi stuff uh you know [00:43:32] just to punish the civilian I'm like of [00:43:34] course there's a reason I got [00:43:35] radicalized yeah um and I'll I've never [00:43:38] apologized for my role in the US empire, [00:43:42] but uh it wasn't like this. Um and so [00:43:45] this is what's bizarre and why I keep [00:43:48] like hoping somehow that this will like [00:43:50] change journalism in some way going [00:43:52] forward just how egregious this is [00:43:56] because like the gaslighting is on a [00:43:57] whole another level. You know, you [00:43:59] didn't have Donald Rumsfeld saying like [00:44:01] kill every Iraqi baby. They're all [00:44:04] snakes like you know like human animals. [00:44:06] Everybody's like, "It's it's okay. [00:44:08] Israel has a right to defend itself." [00:44:09] Like, it's just bizarre. [00:44:12] >> Um, so [00:44:12] >> it was just more It's hard for me to [00:44:14] think at the time that like anything run [00:44:17] by George Bush Jr. could be described as [00:44:21] sophisticated like, but in comparison to [00:44:25] the um Israeli Hosbah, it it was like a [00:44:30] like one level below being so obviously [00:44:34] a lie. And one of the things I actually [00:44:36] was thinking about after uh Anas's [00:44:40] murder was how um I mean just the fact [00:44:44] that Israel even gets to say and it's [00:44:46] it's repeated as fact like oh he was he [00:44:49] was running a terror cell. Like first of [00:44:51] all I'd love to know how you can be on [00:44:52] air all the time and be running a terror [00:44:55] cell at the same time. Like that's some [00:44:57] Superman level stuff. But you know there [00:45:01] was a um the minister of information in [00:45:04] Iraq. This guy called Muhammad Ali. He [00:45:07] was christened by the press Chemical [00:45:10] Comical Alley. Chemical Ali was the guy [00:45:12] in charge of the uh biological weapons. [00:45:15] And then they so they called the other [00:45:17] this guy uh comical Alley or Baghdad Bob [00:45:20] because he was telling such lies. [00:45:25] >> Right. [00:45:25] >> I remember Baghdad Bob. [00:45:27] >> Remember Ba Baghdad Bob. Okay. So he [00:45:29] became Baghdad Bob because he was shown [00:45:32] to be lying, right? So how many like [00:45:36] Israel has never like you can constantly [00:45:39] prove that they're lying and yet we're [00:45:42] still quoting them and I'm just like [00:45:43] okay if you guys want to be Middle [00:45:45] Eastern like why aren't you getting [00:45:46] treated like all the other Middle [00:45:47] Eastern leaders who are always like [00:45:50] ridiculed and assumed to be lying that [00:45:52] somehow [00:45:53] >> like it's just not it's there's like no [00:45:55] sort of false equivalency. never seen a [00:45:59] journalist in any other conflict be [00:46:01] killed and right away it's like oh but [00:46:04] it's because actually you know [00:46:08] >> that that that is a first I think I [00:46:11] haven't seen [00:46:11] >> yeah I haven't seen it I mean mostly if [00:46:13] it's a western journalist everybody just [00:46:15] writes these glowing reviews they don't [00:46:17] bring up all the stories that they told [00:46:19] that could have been wrong because [00:46:21] people make mistakes it's the first [00:46:22] draft of history blah blah blah no one's [00:46:24] over like and last year they said this [00:46:27] and it was wrong. You know, I just it's [00:46:29] just beyond anything. I mean, I think [00:46:32] that one of the reasons um in the leadup [00:46:36] to this, you know, there are a lot of [00:46:37] Israeli media watchdog organizations [00:46:40] like Canary is one of them. And I have [00:46:42] friends who work like I have a friend [00:46:43] who works at the AP and like they are [00:46:47] just relentless at harassing journalists [00:46:50] and editors because they have this sort [00:46:52] of like freelance army of I think [00:46:54] there's like 16,000 people and they'll [00:46:56] like post on their website like you know [00:46:58] they said this they called them the [00:47:00] occupied territories instead of the West [00:47:02] Bank and then a thousand people write a [00:47:04] letter to this editor and like news [00:47:06] people are already like sort of crushed [00:47:08] under you know degrees. [00:47:11] >> Yeah. like well anybody in the like the [00:47:13] editors like they all have way more work [00:47:14] than they used to because the budgets [00:47:15] have been cut and there's just a lot [00:47:16] less people and so I think that even if [00:47:20] it's not intentional [00:47:22] when you are constantly I'm talking [00:47:24] about this going on for years when [00:47:26] you're constantly being harassed anytime [00:47:29] you do anything eventually you could [00:47:32] just start kind of sliding like okay I'm [00:47:35] not going to call them the occupied [00:47:36] territories I'm going to call it the [00:47:37] West Bank because [00:47:38] >> I'm trying to get a story out [00:47:40] >> yeah I'm trying to get a story and [00:47:41] tomorrow my inbox is going to have like, [00:47:43] you know, a thousand emails in it. I'm [00:47:45] not saying that it's right, but you [00:47:47] know, I think that it's like I mean, [00:47:49] because this propaganda has been going [00:47:50] on for so long that it has everybody it [00:47:54] people in newsrooms who are just normal [00:47:56] people who aren't in the upper levels [00:47:58] who were talking about god knows [ __ ] [00:48:00] what. Um, just have been, you know, [00:48:04] heranged to a point. I'm not saying it's [00:48:06] correct, but I think they that that is a [00:48:08] part of the way that things have always [00:48:10] been reported in the kind of like [00:48:12] ongoing is pro-Israeli propaganda. Come [00:48:15] at me, Canary. [00:48:17] >> Yeah. I mean, I I was never in I wasn't [00:48:19] in acade academia when I started talking [00:48:21] about this, so I never got do I got [00:48:23] docked by other by other groups. I [00:48:25] forget which ones, but um yeah, I don't [00:48:27] know. Just do do you see the media [00:48:30] landscape changing because of this in [00:48:31] any substantial way? I know it's hard to [00:48:33] tell or predict, but everything still [00:48:34] seems so so entrenched. You've got like [00:48:37] magazines like in Germany like posting [00:48:40] that Anas was like a terrorist like [00:48:42] actually like towing the Hazbar line. [00:48:44] And of course, you know, all the [00:48:45] right-wing media in a country like that [00:48:47] is always going to do that. But like CNN [00:48:50] reporters, Fox News, like people at like [00:48:52] the AP Reuters, like do they not know [00:48:55] that journalists are being their [00:48:58] colleagues uh from another country are [00:49:00] being intentionally I don't even know if [00:49:02] they really think of them as their [00:49:04] colleagues to be honest. Like I sat in I [00:49:07] didn't go to a lot of press conferences [00:49:10] >> during my time covering conflict because [00:49:13] I was like I like to kind of be [00:49:16] interviewing people in the field but um [00:49:19] you know a lot of people are sent to [00:49:20] cover that and there was such a [00:49:22] division. It's like the classroom, you [00:49:24] know, where the popular kids sit on one [00:49:26] side and then the jocks sit on another [00:49:27] side. Like the Arab reporters or the [00:49:29] Iraqi reporters were always in one place [00:49:31] and then all the Western journalists [00:49:33] were in another place. It was like [00:49:36] I don't know. It was just weird and [00:49:38] colonial. [00:49:40] >> Yeah. I mean I I definitely don't [00:49:41] function that way. Um [00:49:43] >> No, I don't either. I'm like why would [00:49:45] you be here if you don't want to [00:49:46] actually talk to people from a place [00:49:48] just go home. But [00:49:50] >> I'm here to be on camera with my my my [00:49:53] cute little flack vest, [00:49:54] >> right? I'm here to sit in the green zone [00:49:56] and just like take down whatever Kim and [00:49:59] his Dan Senor. Oh my god, I hate that [00:50:01] man so much. He was like sor Kim lackey. [00:50:05] He's now married to somebody who's on [00:50:07] the news and he has some think tank [00:50:09] position. Look him up. He's a real [00:50:11] treat. [00:50:11] >> He was like the Matt Miller of Iraq. [00:50:15] >> Real. Okay. Yeah. I mean, [00:50:17] >> you know, just like twisting everything. [00:50:19] Nothing's ever what you think you saw. [00:50:22] Like the same I mean that was kind of I [00:50:25] feel like people got to see what went on [00:50:26] in those news conferences that wasn't [00:50:28] broadcast because there just wasn't the [00:50:30] sort of 24-hour cycle or you know what I [00:50:32] mean? But that's what it was like like [00:50:34] you'd ask a question and then you just [00:50:36] get a Matt Miller answer which is also [00:50:38] why I didn't go. You know, I'm wondering [00:50:42] now like a after the the examples set by [00:50:46] journalists in Gaza, a lot of a lot of [00:50:49] whom didn't go to like, you know, [00:50:51] graduate school for journalism. And of [00:50:54] course, like that's that's also a very [00:50:56] colonial mindset is like where'd you get [00:50:58] your degree? How can you be reporting on [00:51:00] these things without [00:51:02] >> You really do not need a degree to be a [00:51:03] journalist at all. You just need to be [00:51:05] there and like write down what you see. [00:51:07] >> Yeah. Um, [00:51:09] >> I mean there's obviously so many [00:51:10] different types of journalists, but you [00:51:13] don't need a degree. I mean, in the old [00:51:15] days, people used to start out in the [00:51:17] ink room, you know, in newspapers and [00:51:18] work their way up. [00:51:20] >> It wasn't like a training. So I guess [00:51:24] like that is also part of the [00:51:25] coloniality is like you haven't gone to [00:51:27] a western journalism school or you don't [00:51:29] have even a bachelor's degree from [00:51:31] someplace you know and of course you [00:51:33] know journalists who grow up grew up in [00:51:36] you know Jordan or Iraq [00:51:38] >> are probably not going to have had the [00:51:40] opportunity to go to Colombia school of [00:51:43] journalism you know [00:51:45] >> so that that's another barrier of entry [00:51:46] that kind of like shapes the narrative [00:51:48] around that and blocks people from [00:51:50] access to this and of course Edward say [00:51:52] wrote about this the uh [00:51:53] institutionalized racism within western [00:51:56] uh liberal universities [00:51:57] >> uh in his seminal book orientalism and [00:52:00] we're kind of like seeing that play out [00:52:01] through the entire journalism spectrum [00:52:03] right now and I'm just kind of hoping [00:52:05] that maybe this is all leading people to [00:52:08] like find alternative media [00:52:11] >> I think so I hope so I mean I don't read [00:52:14] the media I look I get my news through [00:52:17] social media and I mean I know I have [00:52:18] the time and the interest to do that but [00:52:21] I will look at so many different sources [00:52:23] and then try to and if I'm interested in [00:52:25] something I'll go a little deeper and [00:52:26] I'll try to find somebody else and then [00:52:28] just like you know verify it my own way [00:52:31] um by making sure you know there's a [00:52:33] number of people that saw it. So, and [00:52:37] and the other thing is now [00:52:40] um like the traditional or the [00:52:42] mainstream media is lagging behind what [00:52:44] you find on like we saw the ambulance [00:52:48] workers get shot two days before it [00:52:50] started appearing in the news, right? [00:52:52] >> So, you're seeing everything first. So, [00:52:55] >> I don't know. I don't know how they're [00:52:56] gonna what's happen. I mean, I think [00:52:59] there's just [00:53:00] >> I don't know. It's there's there's so [00:53:02] many conversations around this, right? [00:53:03] because there's the whole rise of AI and [00:53:05] deep fakes and um [00:53:07] >> and fake news and people not believing [00:53:09] anything. So, I definitely think that [00:53:12] there's going to be an erosion and [00:53:13] there's going to be I mean I think [00:53:15] what's good now is there are multiple [00:53:17] channels. You know what I mean? There's [00:53:19] so many there's the Young Turks, there's [00:53:21] you, there's Midas, there's the Teao for [00:53:23] I mean whatever you think of any of [00:53:24] these channels, they exist because of [00:53:27] there's enough people that want to see [00:53:29] something different. I think that the [00:53:31] thing that I that makes me concerned is, [00:53:35] you know, the big news organizations are [00:53:38] the ones that can fund deep [00:53:40] investigative work, right? They're the [00:53:42] ones like, [00:53:44] >> you know, I could go to Fallujah for a [00:53:46] month and pay $100 a day for my [00:53:48] translator and $100 a day for my driver [00:53:51] and buy food for everybody because I had [00:53:54] like a mainstream channel backing it. I [00:53:56] wouldn't have been able to do that [00:53:57] otherwise. like you can't just I'm sure [00:54:00] you'd love to go over to the Middle East [00:54:01] and dig around, but like you probably [00:54:03] don't have the the means to do that. So, [00:54:06] I I just I don't know. I I feel like a [00:54:09] lot can also be lost by not having, [00:54:13] you know, I don't know. It's confusing. [00:54:15] I mean, that's a really good point [00:54:16] because, you know, I could I could go to [00:54:18] the Middle East and because, you know, [00:54:19] I've had the opportunity to like become [00:54:21] self-employed basically through like [00:54:23] subscriptions, [00:54:25] >> um, you know, that like fund my travel [00:54:27] like I mean I'm I'm paycheck to [00:54:29] paycheck, but I'm still able to like fly [00:54:30] places, but like you know, beyond like [00:54:33] room and board and plane tickets, like [00:54:34] hiring people [00:54:36] >> expensive, incred they're so expensive, [00:54:38] especially if you want to actually pay [00:54:40] people properly. But that's I I think [00:54:42] another layer of the colonialism of of [00:54:45] foreign reporting that I want to bring [00:54:46] up is that as much as um you know the [00:54:50] whole there's this huge movement I [00:54:51] actually signed a petition now I'm like [00:54:53] I don't know why I signed that but you [00:54:54] know of all these journalists saying let [00:54:56] people in um [00:54:59] because you know it's like we're [00:55:01] independent because somehow if you're [00:55:02] from a place you can't be independent [00:55:04] like you can't report on Texas Greg [00:55:06] because you're from Texas so you're [00:55:08] obviously going to be lying. [00:55:10] Um, but the thing is, as soon as you get [00:55:13] in there, you're hiring a local person [00:55:15] to translate for you. So, if apparently [00:55:19] these people can't be trusted, then what [00:55:20] if they're translating everything wrong, [00:55:22] right? So, it's really you're just [00:55:23] slapping a western face on top of this [00:55:26] information gathering um operation that [00:55:30] completely relies on local people. [00:55:33] >> You know, that is an excellent point [00:55:35] that I hadn't considered for some [00:55:36] reason. you know, when I was doing like [00:55:38] field interrogations and tactical [00:55:40] questioning, um, I had to get rid of two [00:55:44] interrogators because they were [00:55:46] mistransating cuz like I went to [00:55:48] language school for Dari Persian. [00:55:50] >> Oh, okay. So, you could tell. [00:55:51] >> Well, at the beginning, I would never [00:55:53] tell them that I knew enough to [00:55:56] understand what they're saying and [00:55:57] especially knew enough to understand if [00:55:59] they're not saying what I want them to [00:56:01] say [00:56:02] >> or or what I'm asking them to say. So, [00:56:04] yeah, that's definitely a thing, too. So [00:56:05] it's like why don't you just cut out the [00:56:08] middleman and like the porn [00:56:10] >> journalist. But that's what I think is [00:56:12] amazing about social media and and just [00:56:16] the fact that everybody can is empowered [00:56:19] enough at least to you know show people [00:56:21] what's happening to them. And then [00:56:22] another thing and we mentioned this [00:56:24] briefly that I think is and this just [00:56:26] this relates to Gaza but I see it [00:56:28] happening elsewhere obviously is the I [00:56:31] think I mean I know I've become very [00:56:32] close to a guy in Gaza who's become like [00:56:35] I talk to him every day and he I asked [00:56:36] him [ __ ] I'm like what's happening like [00:56:38] as soon as they started saying Hamas is [00:56:40] is is uh stealing the aid. He was like [00:56:43] no it's criminal gangs they're stealing [00:56:45] it. The soldiers watch them you know and [00:56:47] so which is I mean that's reporting [00:56:50] right? asking people what they see. But [00:56:52] I heard that and like two months before [00:56:55] uh it was reported on and I think that [00:56:58] there's a lot of people because I see it [00:57:00] in the comments who through things like [00:57:01] GoFundMe have become pen pals with [00:57:05] people in Gaza who are hearing [00:57:06] everything straight from the horse's [00:57:08] mouth and realizing how much they're [00:57:11] being lied to. I don't know. It's it's [00:57:13] it's like a very uh big question, right? [00:57:16] Because in a way you're like what's the [00:57:18] purpose of journalism in a really [00:57:20] connected world and [00:57:22] >> well to synthesize information to become [00:57:24] a trusted voice that people don't have [00:57:26] to search for themselves because most [00:57:27] people you know they they want to be [00:57:29] they want to be informed but they also [00:57:32] don't have enough time to do the [00:57:33] research themselves. So you try to spend [00:57:35] years building up credibility and [00:57:37] building up sources. And you know there [00:57:39] are some people that you know um I know [00:57:42] that I'm among a few people that certain [00:57:44] individuals only follow and only listen [00:57:46] to. So I try to you know uh [00:57:48] >> yeah no I mean I've always felt that as [00:57:50] a journalist and like the only thing I [00:57:52] have is my integrity. The only reason [00:57:53] people I can convince anybody to talk to [00:57:55] me is because they feel like I'm gonna [00:57:58] be truthful to what they said. Like I'm [00:58:01] not. But I don't know. I don't know that [00:58:03] everybody I definitely I can't see why [00:58:05] anybody would have that faith now in any [00:58:08] of the mainstream organizations because [00:58:10] the mask has fallen so far off. So, you [00:58:14] know, this is kind of my final point [00:58:16] slashquest [00:58:18] is that, you know, a lot of people, I [00:58:21] think, within the media, the the the [00:58:23] legacy media apparatus kind of know [00:58:25] what's going on is wrong and they're [00:58:26] eventually going to have to like do some [00:58:28] revisionist history on themselves and [00:58:30] their reporting just like Piers Morgan [00:58:32] is doing right now because he was a [00:58:34] straight has barist, you know, uh during [00:58:37] the the first year and a half and it [00:58:39] wasn't until this complete [00:58:41] >> blockade of food mass starvation as a [00:58:44] matter of state policy that he's he's [00:58:46] only started to ask actual questions of [00:58:48] these propagandists. So, he's going to [00:58:50] try to do a reform. I think a lot of [00:58:52] people are going to try to do a reform. [00:58:55] Um, you know, what's the comment about [00:58:57] like uh like like liberals especially in [00:58:59] the media, you know, they're against [00:59:00] every war except the current one. [00:59:02] >> Yeah, exactly. [00:59:04] >> Canada who just had its reckoning with [00:59:06] mass graves of children but apparently [00:59:08] didn't learn anything from that. [00:59:10] >> You know, in some ways like the same [00:59:12] thing happening in Gaza and and you know [00:59:14] just [00:59:15] >> yeah I mean we we forget that you know [00:59:18] the Canada was almost actually in some [00:59:21] ways more brutal towards the [00:59:23] >> that's what I keep saying to people I'm [00:59:24] like we're just watching what happened [00:59:26] this is how we got our country it was [00:59:27] probably slower and it wasn't filmed. [00:59:30] >> Yeah. And so my question is like Iraq, [00:59:34] >> you know, everyone universally pretty [00:59:36] much universally agrees that that was a [00:59:40] big whoopsie. And you know, people [00:59:43] report on it like that. Like like [00:59:44] journalists who were over there in like [00:59:47] the mid 2000s, you know, basically [00:59:50] towing this the the line manufacturing [00:59:52] consent are now pretending like, you [00:59:55] know, the the Iraq war was a mistake. [00:59:57] you know, they lied about weapons of [00:59:59] mass destruction and like you were [01:00:00] selling, you know, State Department [01:00:02] talking points. I mean, do you see this [01:00:04] a similar thing happening in 10 years? [01:00:07] >> I mean, I think it's already started to [01:00:09] happen and this is what I kind of [01:00:11] thought at the beginning when in the [01:00:13] beginning of Gaza, I saw so many [01:00:15] similarities to the beginning of the [01:00:16] Iraq war and I'm like, you know, they [01:00:19] change their mind when it's too late. [01:00:20] They manufacture consent. They beat the [01:00:22] drum of war. And then once the oper like [01:00:25] you can't unroll the operation like it's [01:00:27] going on then and I think it's just to [01:00:30] like win prizes and have a conscience [01:00:33] then they start doing like the human [01:00:34] interest stories and talking about but [01:00:36] it's like too late. Like your job was [01:00:38] supposed to be to sort of inform people. [01:00:41] I mean if you look at the New York Times [01:00:43] they manufactured consent. They had to [01:00:45] print an apology letter, right, about [01:00:47] the fact that they Judith Miller had [01:00:49] interviewed Ahmed Alchelby and he said [01:00:52] that there were, you know, weapons of [01:00:54] mass destruction. And I'm just like, I [01:00:55] don't even believe that they thought [01:00:57] that was true. You know what I mean? But [01:00:58] then they kind of like come back and but [01:01:01] in the first six months, like their [01:01:03] their senior correspondent, John F. [01:01:05] Burns his his the the first night of [01:01:08] shock and awe. He wrote this article [01:01:10] where he described seeing the American [01:01:12] missiles, you know, falling through the [01:01:14] sky as biblical. Like, [01:01:18] you know, dude, you're a [01:01:20] >> praise Jesus. [01:01:21] >> What? [01:01:22] >> Praise Jesus. [01:01:23] >> Oh, hallelujah. I mean it's just so but [01:01:27] I also do think that like and as I was [01:01:29] saying again there are so many different [01:01:31] people in a lot of news rooms and there [01:01:33] are the people that are going to kind of [01:01:34] go in and do the like press conferences [01:01:37] and write all that stuff and then there [01:01:38] are the people who you know probably [01:01:41] push to do different stories and it's [01:01:43] not nec you you the person that kind of [01:01:46] wrote the biblical bomb story is not the [01:01:48] same person that is going to have been [01:01:50] writing about like all the kids that [01:01:51] were orphaned in general. Um, so [01:01:57] I don't know what I can't even remember [01:01:59] how I gone on to that. Oh yeah. Do I [01:02:01] think the same thing will h Yeah, it [01:02:02] will happen. I really hope people get [01:02:03] held to account like I really hope [01:02:05] because the media should have been held [01:02:07] to account then and they weren't. Um and [01:02:10] I hope that you know with people being [01:02:14] better organized uh they will like you [01:02:17] know there needs to be a journalism [01:02:19] hingrajab foundation [01:02:21] where you know it's forensic and things [01:02:25] that people said versus the truth comes [01:02:27] out and and people are prosecuted. [01:02:30] Well, you know, the uh the internet is [01:02:33] now well until society, civilization [01:02:35] dissolves is now forever. And so that [01:02:38] didn't exist. [01:02:39] >> A good thing [01:02:40] >> that didn't exist. [01:02:41] >> No, but it's the same story. It's the [01:02:43] It's like It's the same like much much [01:02:46] worse and more intense story of, you [01:02:50] know, because I think about six months [01:02:51] ago was when you started to see the [01:02:53] shift. Like it was like, oh, enough [01:02:54] people are dead now. Gaza is like 70% [01:02:58] destroyed. Now we're going to be like, [01:03:00] "Oh, poor civilians." Like the fact that [01:03:03] nobody wrote that every hospital was [01:03:06] destroyed, that there wasn't a huge [01:03:08] investigation into that, but yet when [01:03:10] MSF the MSF hospital was bombed [01:03:12] >> in 2015, [01:03:13] >> Afghanistan, it was on the front of the [01:03:15] news for like two weeks. I I mean, I [01:03:18] don't even know what to say. [01:03:20] Well, uh I think you know some some [01:03:24] enterprising civilian should create a a [01:03:28] community archive of everyone who [01:03:30] manufactured consent because you know [01:03:32] there's going to be a mass deleting of [01:03:34] tweets, a mass deleting of uh social [01:03:37] media posts and I don't have time to do [01:03:40] it. Uh, but everybody has their role in [01:03:42] this. And you know what? That's [01:03:44] >> that's kind of a little bit of [01:03:45] journalism right there if you want to [01:03:47] pick it up. And you don't need a degree. [01:03:49] >> Yeah. You don't need a degree. [01:03:51] >> Yeah. [01:03:52] >> Just need to be there. [01:03:53] >> So, I guess we're just going to end with [01:03:55] the sentiment again that you're going to [01:03:57] have to find a way to explain to your [01:04:00] grandkids, you know, how third grade [01:04:03] military propaganda turned you into a [01:04:07] bloodthirsty lunatic. that manufactured [01:04:11] consent for a genocide just so you could [01:04:13] get on camera and pretend to dodge [01:04:16] rocket fire. Anyways, [01:04:19] >> yeah, everyone has propaganda except the [01:04:21] West, right? [01:04:22] >> No, [01:04:23] >> that's the story. Just one more thing. [01:04:25] You know, all of these countries that [01:04:27] live under non-democracies, everybody [01:04:30] [ __ ] knows the government is lying to [01:04:31] them and it's propaganda. Like, they're [01:04:33] so aware of that from the time they're [01:04:34] tiny, right? But the better propaganda, [01:04:37] I think, is to be like, "No, we tell you [01:04:39] the truth, you know, and so then people [01:04:42] just don't think they're being [01:04:43] propagandized." And I I do think there's [01:04:45] like a mass awakening going on. But [01:04:48] >> yeah, I mean, you know, we we've been [01:04:50] propagandized by like Western supremacy [01:04:52] for hundreds of years, too. You know, [01:04:54] it's, you know, there have been cultural [01:04:56] shifts in like other regions of the [01:04:58] world, and there's been social [01:04:59] upheavalss aside from like the French [01:05:00] Revolution and the American Re. There [01:05:02] hasn't really been one, you know, and [01:05:04] the Cold War. the cold war propaganda um [01:05:07] really did a number on the US and [01:05:09] British and European populations. So I [01:05:12] would just like to say and end with [01:05:13] this. [01:05:14] >> You can't understand what's happening in [01:05:16] Palestine without these three [01:05:18] frameworks. One, colonialism. It's land [01:05:20] theft for resource extraction. Two, [01:05:24] capitalism, corporate and state powers [01:05:26] colluding for resource extraction and [01:05:28] money. And three, white supremacy. [01:05:31] Dehumanize brown people so their deaths [01:05:34] for the above don't register. And that [01:05:37] third part is important in the media to [01:05:41] discount all the Palestinian journalists [01:05:43] because again, you know, people, we need [01:05:46] consent to be manufactured. And part of [01:05:48] the manufacturing of consent is to get [01:05:50] people to not care about bl brown brown [01:05:53] people to say, "Hey, you don't have a [01:05:55] journalism degree. You can't report. um [01:05:58] you know, we can't trust anything that's [01:06:00] coming out of Gaza because, you know, [01:06:01] these people these people lie and you [01:06:05] know, it's all again about money. A lot [01:06:08] of our legacy media are controlled by [01:06:11] billionaires and corporate interests. [01:06:13] And so that's where you trace it back [01:06:15] to. [01:06:15] >> Yeah. Trusted a person who just got [01:06:18] parachuted in for two weeks who doesn't [01:06:20] speak the language because they are [01:06:23] going to be able to tell you what's [01:06:24] going on. [01:06:25] >> Oh my god. Uh yeah, my my partner, she [01:06:27] talks all the time about parachute [01:06:28] journalism. So, I mean, we're we're kind [01:06:31] of uh we're kind of out of time right [01:06:33] now, but yes, we I would I would listen [01:06:35] to a local journalist who's been at it [01:06:38] for, you know, a little bit of time over [01:06:41] a parachute journalist, you know, from [01:06:44] uh you know, Queens any day of the week. [01:06:46] So, thank you all so much and thank you, [01:06:49] Tara, for coming on and talking to us. [01:06:50] >> Thank you so much for having me. [01:06:52] >> Yeah. All right, y'all. Well, we're [01:06:54] going to be wrapping it up here and we [01:06:57] won't have time for a Q&A today. I'm so [01:06:59] sorry. But we will be back Thursday to [01:07:02] talk about I don't know something like [01:07:04] Russia Ukraine ceasefire. Um, who knows? [01:07:08] You know, the the news cycle again is so [01:07:10] insane. So, y'all stay sane out there. [01:07:13] It's Monday evening and we are signing [01:07:16] out. Cheers, y'all.