📄 Extracted Text (20,560 words)
[00:00:00] So, you're in, first of all, thank you
[00:00:01] for doing this. You're in the middle of
[00:00:03] a nationwide tour speaking live before
[00:00:05] big audiences, and there's a Q&A
[00:00:08] component in every uh every gig, every
[00:00:11] performance, and you're getting
[00:00:14] questions directly from young men. What
[00:00:16] kind of questions are you getting
[00:00:17] consistently?
[00:00:20] A lot of them around directionlessness.
[00:00:23] Uh, I'm out of full-time education. I'm
[00:00:27] in my early 20s or I've just left a
[00:00:29] relationship or I've worked for a while
[00:00:32] and got myself to a a state of success
[00:00:35] that felt unfulfilling to me and I don't
[00:00:37] know where to go. And I think that this
[00:00:38] sort of speaks to the lost archetypes,
[00:00:41] the the um train tracks and the the the
[00:00:45] examples that would have previously been
[00:00:46] laid out for young men. And uh
[00:00:49] directionlessness is a huge one. um
[00:00:51] trying to find a balance between drive
[00:00:54] to improve and gratitude and self-love
[00:00:57] for the moment. Uh the sort of um you
[00:01:00] are enough versus hustlebro blend. Guys
[00:01:03] want to be able to go and conquer. They
[00:01:05] want to really achieve things in the
[00:01:06] world. But also they realize that if
[00:01:08] they're permanently looking over the
[00:01:09] shoulder of the present moment waiting
[00:01:11] to see what comes next, they might miss
[00:01:13] their lives. You know there's this idea
[00:01:16] called uh the delayed happiness
[00:01:18] hypothesis which is basically that as
[00:01:21] people uh move through life they always
[00:01:24] promise that happiness will arrive when
[00:01:27] once I have got the graduation once I
[00:01:30] have got the next job once I have got
[00:01:31] the girlfriend once I have got the house
[00:01:32] once I have paid off the mortgage and
[00:01:34] what you realize is that this idil that
[00:01:37] you are running toward is actually your
[00:01:38] death and you've just speedrun your
[00:01:40] entire life and I think that they're
[00:01:42] becoming increasingly more aware of that
[00:01:44] which is good. I think it's a
[00:01:45] >> is good
[00:01:46] >> a balance between wanting to be more and
[00:01:49] being enough already. And this is a
[00:01:51] tension that exists inside the mind of
[00:01:53] everyone, but I think men especially.
[00:01:55] And uh those are are two big challenges.
[00:01:58] Um I'm stuck in terms of direction. I
[00:02:00] don't know where to go and I'm trying to
[00:02:02] balance high standards with self-love.
[00:02:06] >> I don't know where to go. So they've
[00:02:08] completed the task set before them. They
[00:02:10] they made it through in the US 16 years
[00:02:12] of school.
[00:02:14] and they get all their little merit
[00:02:16] badges or whatever. They're graded along
[00:02:17] the way and you know, everyone's so
[00:02:19] proud and then they graduate and they
[00:02:23] kind of like they have no idea what to
[00:02:25] do.
[00:02:31] [music]
[00:02:39] [music]
[00:02:46] I felt this I did two degrees a
[00:02:48] bachelor's and a masters at university
[00:02:49] with a year in industry as well. So I
[00:02:51] was at uni for five full years. I was in
[00:02:53] full-time education for 18 years
[00:02:57] and it's kind of like being on a set of
[00:02:59] train tracks for a long time and yeah,
[00:03:01] you're sort of a passenger and you get
[00:03:02] to move up and down the carriage and
[00:03:04] contribute a little bit and you know,
[00:03:06] but the destination that you're going
[00:03:08] toward has been prescribed for you and
[00:03:10] then it's kind of like being thrown off
[00:03:12] the train into a car with no roads and
[00:03:14] just saying hey good luck like try and
[00:03:15] find your way and I think that the
[00:03:17] challenge is a lot of the rules and the
[00:03:20] advice that would have worked for
[00:03:22] grandfathers and maybe even fathers of
[00:03:25] these guys.
[00:03:27] The uh archetypes and the roles that
[00:03:30] they would have previously stepped into
[00:03:32] aren't there in quite the same way.
[00:03:34] There's been a lot of structural changes
[00:03:35] that have adjusted the landscape that
[00:03:38] men and boys exist in over the last 50
[00:03:40] years. And that means that a lot of the
[00:03:42] role models and examples and uh
[00:03:44] welltrodden paths don't feel like
[00:03:47] they're there in the same kind of way.
[00:03:49] So navigating those structural changes
[00:03:51] as a young man is is uh not easy.
[00:03:53] >> So what did you take your degrees in?
[00:03:55] What did you study?
[00:03:55] >> Uh bachelor's in business and a masters
[00:03:57] in international marketing.
[00:03:59] >> I can't remember either of them.
[00:04:01] >> And then did you go into international
[00:04:03] business when you left school?
[00:04:05] >> Not even remotely.
[00:04:06] >> What did you do?
[00:04:07] >> I sat down in my first ever seminar the
[00:04:10] week after freshers week in the the
[00:04:11] first week of university. sat next to a
[00:04:13] guy and I said, "I've spent all of my
[00:04:16] money partying uh in my first week of
[00:04:19] university. Uh I'm skint. I've run out
[00:04:21] of cash. Uh I need a job." And he's
[00:04:23] like, "I'm going to go and hand out
[00:04:24] flyers for a nightclub. Uh maybe you
[00:04:27] could come and see if you can get a job
[00:04:29] doing the same thing." That guy that I
[00:04:30] sat next to in my first seminar for
[00:04:32] quantitative methods 15 years later was
[00:04:35] still my business partner. I was
[00:04:36] groomsman at his wedding. We did a
[00:04:39] million lifetime entries throughout
[00:04:40] nightclubs together. So that one thing
[00:04:42] that sort of chance meeting that we had
[00:04:44] I started running an events company and
[00:04:46] then got to the end of my 20ies and uh
[00:04:48] had a change an existential change uh
[00:04:52] that meant that I started doing my
[00:04:53] podcast Modern Wisdom.
[00:04:56] >> Before that change happened did you ever
[00:04:58] pause and think hm I got a master's
[00:05:01] degree
[00:05:02] >> international business
[00:05:04] >> but in real life I'm a nightclub
[00:05:06] promoter and I'm succeeding
[00:05:08] >> you succeeded in the business correct.
[00:05:10] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[00:05:11] >> So, the disconnect between your training
[00:05:13] and your work couldn't be more profound
[00:05:16] >> to a degree. Uh to fight fly the flag
[00:05:18] for the nightclub promoters out there,
[00:05:20] it's a wonderful training ground for
[00:05:22] people to go into business and be
[00:05:24] successful in business because you get a
[00:05:25] very broad perspective of how a business
[00:05:27] needs to operate. HR management, B2B,
[00:05:30] B2C, customer complaints, marketing.
[00:05:32] >> Oh, for sure.
[00:05:33] >> It's that being said,
[00:05:36] I had a lot of fun. Uh,
[00:05:39] should [snorts] I have perhaps realized
[00:05:41] before
[00:05:43] 30 that maybe
[00:05:46] one pound jagger bombs was not my
[00:05:47] highest calling in life? Uh, perhaps.
[00:05:49] But I was having a great time. Uh, I
[00:05:51] worked with people that I really loved.
[00:05:53] My business partner and me had a
[00:05:54] fantastic relationship. So, it was good.
[00:05:56] But yes, there is a
[00:05:58] >> Well, I'm just wondering, and I'm not in
[00:06:00] any way criticizing the job or or any
[00:06:02] job that you know, basically honorable
[00:06:05] job that a man does. I is virtuous in my
[00:06:09] opinion.
[00:06:10] >> I'm questioning whether you needed to
[00:06:12] spend five years in university to do
[00:06:13] that job.
[00:06:14] >> Probably not. No. Um for me the uh
[00:06:18] existing justification for university is
[00:06:22] it's a good way to
[00:06:25] it's like Navy Seal hell week for 3
[00:06:27] years of socialization. Uh you really
[00:06:29] get thrust into a lot of different
[00:06:30] experiences. You're living with new
[00:06:32] people. You have to navigate friendships
[00:06:34] and relationships and makeups and
[00:06:35] breakups and use executive function. Uh
[00:06:38] perhaps you could do this if you got an
[00:06:39] apprenticeship or went into a job early,
[00:06:41] but at least for me, moving into halls
[00:06:42] of residence and having to work out
[00:06:44] who's paying for the electric bill and
[00:06:45] I'm going to live with these new people
[00:06:46] and I've fallen out of friendship with
[00:06:48] this person and I need to navigate
[00:06:49] administration, all this stuff, it um
[00:06:51] condensed down a lot of adulting into a
[00:06:53] very short period of time. And I think I
[00:06:55] came to university at 18 as um pretty
[00:06:58] under socialized and left at 23 like to
[00:07:03] beyond totally ready to kind of dominate
[00:07:05] the adult world.
[00:07:07] >> What advice do you give young men who
[00:07:10] ask you what direction should I take?
[00:07:14] >> Uh well I think at least to start
[00:07:18] finding out what you're interested in is
[00:07:19] a good place to begin. I mean look, one
[00:07:23] of the problems of giving any advice to
[00:07:24] young men is that we need to do this
[00:07:26] strange kind of
[00:07:30] land acknowledgement, this social land
[00:07:32] acknowledgement before we start. If me
[00:07:34] and you were going to talk about the
[00:07:35] problems of young men, one of the first
[00:07:37] things we need to do or typically that
[00:07:39] people expect is while it's very
[00:07:41] important for us to remember that women
[00:07:42] are still falling behind in this area
[00:07:44] and it's also important to remember that
[00:07:46] up until
[00:07:46] >> I can't even deal with that.
[00:07:47] >> You understand what I mean though,
[00:07:48] right? I would never play along with
[00:07:50] that lie.
[00:07:50] >> There is this odd expectation that in
[00:07:52] order to talk about the problems of men
[00:07:53] and boys, we first must identify all of
[00:07:56] the other issues and plight of other
[00:07:59] more deserving groups. And this is
[00:08:01] something
[00:08:02] >> what world is. I mean, I don't even I'm
[00:08:04] amazed that that requirement still
[00:08:06] exists or anyone takes it seriously.
[00:08:07] It's so absurd.
[00:08:08] >> Mhm. Well, it's a shame. Um, I think
[00:08:11] it's basically you saying, I know I'm
[00:08:14] about to talk about a group that you
[00:08:16] think might have previously been in a
[00:08:18] privileged position, but now it's really
[00:08:20] important that we talk about some of the
[00:08:21] shortcomings that they're dealing with.
[00:08:24] I'm going to show that I am on side. I'm
[00:08:26] an ally and I understand how this is
[00:08:28] framed in the broader context or
[00:08:30] whatever. This is something that I've
[00:08:31] become particularly frustrated with the
[00:08:34] this social land acknowledgement thing.
[00:08:35] >> The requirement to self-castrate before
[00:08:37] saying obvious things. Yeah. And we
[00:08:40] don't do it in the opposite way, right?
[00:08:41] We don't say um
[00:08:43] >> don't do it at all.
[00:08:44] >> We're going to have a conversation about
[00:08:45] breast cancer, but it is important for
[00:08:48] us to remember that male suicides
[00:08:49] account for nearly as many deaths as
[00:08:50] breast cancer do. And men are falling
[00:08:52] behind in education and employment and
[00:08:54] there have been these structure. And now
[00:08:55] that we have done this, we can finally
[00:08:56] get on to talking about breast cancer.
[00:08:58] We're excited to announce a new partner
[00:09:00] of our show, Poncho Outdoors. Poncho
[00:09:03] specializes in men's shirts designed for
[00:09:05] the great outdoors. Their flannels are
[00:09:07] excellent. They're not bulky [music] or
[00:09:10] stiff, and they are durable. They're
[00:09:12] built for comfort. These mediumweight,
[00:09:14] stretchy, shockingly soft shirts are the
[00:09:17] go-to when temperatures drop. Poncho
[00:09:19] shirts are perfect for everything you do
[00:09:21] outside [music] in the fall. Fishing,
[00:09:23] hunting, golfing, enjoying the weather,
[00:09:25] poncho is the way to go. Our producers,
[00:09:27] I'm looking at one, wearing one right
[00:09:28] now. Each shirt is comfortable, durable,
[00:09:30] versatile for whatever happens. Slim,
[00:09:32] regular, tall fits because people come
[00:09:35] in all shapes and sizes. Gear up for
[00:09:37] fall with Poncho. Every piece is built
[00:09:38] for comfort. ponchooutdoors.com/tucker.
[00:09:42] Enter your email for 10 bucks off your
[00:09:44] first order. That's poncho
[00:09:46] poutdoors.com/tucker
[00:09:50] for 10 bucks off and free shipping. When
[00:09:52] they ask, "How'd you hear about Poncho?"
[00:09:53] Let them know the Tucker Carlson show
[00:09:55] sent you with maximum enthusiasm. Has it
[00:09:58] occurred that there's a connection
[00:09:59] between these phenomena?
[00:10:03] >> Well, that maybe men are in a dire state
[00:10:07] because they have been browbeaten and
[00:10:10] demoralized and attacked for their
[00:10:12] immutable qualities that they can't
[00:10:14] control that they were born with.
[00:10:16] >> And this has gone on for like 40 years
[00:10:19] and it all it has done is destroyed men
[00:10:20] and make women crazy. Like the whole
[00:10:22] thing is just terrible. It's like the
[00:10:24] worst thing that's happened ever in the
[00:10:26] West. So, like maybe there's a reason
[00:10:30] men have no direction and are addicted
[00:10:32] to porn and a million other things
[00:10:34] because they're told constantly that
[00:10:36] their lives don't matter.
[00:10:39] >> Yeah. I think we we've seen a lot of
[00:10:40] structural changes and what's really
[00:10:43] interesting is the how this is coming to
[00:10:46] land uh existentially, psychologically,
[00:10:49] like karmically within men. But the
[00:10:50] structural changes are what I think
[00:10:52] kicked a lot of this going. So education
[00:10:54] and employment are the two big ones for
[00:10:56] men. Uh in education it seems like the
[00:10:59] current education system um was always
[00:11:03] set up in a manner that women girls were
[00:11:05] going to overperform in. They had the
[00:11:07] brakes put on them for a while with
[00:11:08] regards to encouragement and uh their
[00:11:12] acceptance toward university. Girls are
[00:11:14] better to sit down. They're good
[00:11:15] highlighter people and they're more
[00:11:17] conscientious than boys are on average.
[00:11:19] They're less rambunctious. They're good
[00:11:21] for if you need to sit quietly in a
[00:11:22] classroom for six hours a day. They
[00:11:24] [clears throat] crush it. They
[00:11:25] absolutely crush it.
[00:11:26] >> More obedience, less creativity.
[00:11:27] >> Uh and less disruption as well, which is
[00:11:30] a huge big deal. Especially when most uh
[00:11:32] there are
[00:11:33] >> three times as many female fighter
[00:11:35] pilots in the US Air Force as there are
[00:11:37] male kindergarten teachers in the United
[00:11:39] States. 2% of kindergarten teachers are
[00:11:42] men. It's about 7% of fe fighter pilots
[00:11:44] are female. And this means that being
[00:11:47] able to deal with the uh disruptions of
[00:11:50] young boys is tough. What this has
[00:11:52] resulted in is girls are starting to
[00:11:56] outstrip in terms of performance boys.
[00:11:58] So since Title 9 was introduced 50 years
[00:12:01] ago, which is to get more girls into
[00:12:03] higher education,
[00:12:05] the gender gap between men and women
[00:12:08] then is smaller than it is now. But it
[00:12:11] was in the other direction.
[00:12:13] >> Yeah. So there are fewer men going to
[00:12:16] college than women now than 50 years ago
[00:12:19] when Title N was introduced. So women
[00:12:21] have just blown through the glass
[00:12:22] ceiling that was supposed to be
[00:12:23] >> and if you break it out by graduation
[00:12:26] rates, it's overwhelmingly female.
[00:12:29] >> Seven times more men than women dropped
[00:12:31] out of college during co,
[00:12:33] >> right?
[00:12:33] >> Uh so all of that together means you
[00:12:36] have two women for every one man
[00:12:37] completing a four-year US college
[00:12:38] degree. Like
[00:12:39] >> is that true? It's two to one.
[00:12:40] >> Two to one. It it we're almost there.
[00:12:42] some campuses it's nearly 3:1 in terms
[00:12:45] of the uh the ratio. So you have
[00:12:48] education more women than men completing
[00:12:50] a four-year US college degree by a big
[00:12:52] distance and that's going to just
[00:12:53] continue ticking up ticking up ticking
[00:12:54] up. You then look at what's happened
[00:12:56] with employees. That's education. You
[00:12:58] look at what's happened with employment.
[00:12:59] Well, we've moved from a broadbased to a
[00:13:02] brainbased economy. Uh it's become
[00:13:05] increasingly credentialized, which means
[00:13:06] that the education piece is now more
[00:13:08] important than ever before. So you have
[00:13:11] uh girls overperforming
[00:13:14] uh relatively in education and then
[00:13:17] moving into an employment world which
[00:13:19] also kind of needs more administrative
[00:13:22] knowhow. Yes, some assertiveness that
[00:13:25] guys have still gotten some
[00:13:26] disagreeability is good for getting you
[00:13:27] promotions, but between the ages of 21
[00:13:29] and 29, women on average earn 100 £1,111
[00:13:34] more than men do. So they're out earning
[00:13:37] men too. Not only they educating,
[00:13:38] they're out earning men. And this sort
[00:13:40] of altogether the structural changes of
[00:13:43] uh women in education and employment
[00:13:45] plus welfare state assisting uh single
[00:13:48] mothers particularly has meant that guys
[00:13:51] go well
[00:13:53] what's my place? What's my role now? I
[00:13:56] feel surplus
[00:13:57] >> say I'm not going to marry a man who
[00:13:59] makes less than I do. They don't want to
[00:14:01] marry men who make less than they do.
[00:14:02] There's million studies on this and it's
[00:14:05] noticeable just from talking to women.
[00:14:06] And they don't want they don't want to
[00:14:07] marry a man shorter than them and they
[00:14:09] don't want to marry a man who makes
[00:14:10] less. Sorry.
[00:14:11] >> Uh there's an idea called the tall girl
[00:14:14] hypothesis which I start I bro science
[00:14:16] into existence about four years ago. I
[00:14:18] got in a lot of trouble when I first
[00:14:20] started talking about this. So if you
[00:14:22] were a 6'3 woman typically on average
[00:14:25] women want to date a guy taller than
[00:14:26] them. You're looking at proathletes,
[00:14:28] right? If you want to date if you're 6'3
[00:14:30] woman, you want to wear heels at your
[00:14:31] wedding like you're looking at dudes
[00:14:32] that are 67. Like you're looking at
[00:14:34] proathletes. The point here is if you
[00:14:36] are a taller woman and want to date up
[00:14:39] and across, there is a smaller cohort of
[00:14:41] men for you to be able to pick from.
[00:14:43] >> Yes.
[00:14:43] >> Socioeconomically over the last 50
[00:14:45] years, women have become taller.
[00:14:48] Socioeconomically they have grown. Men
[00:14:50] have stagnated and in some cases they've
[00:14:52] actually gotten a little bit shorter.
[00:14:53] What this means is if women on average
[00:14:55] want to date a man who is as educated or
[00:14:57] more than them and as wealthy or more
[00:14:59] than them but women are now out earning
[00:15:01] and out educating men who have ever
[00:15:03] increasing group of high performing
[00:15:05] women competing forever decreasing group
[00:15:07] of ultra high performing men. Now these
[00:15:09] guys have got
[00:15:11] >> unlimited options. So they can use and
[00:15:13] discard these women as they need. Yes,
[00:15:16] >> these women feel uh like most guys don't
[00:15:19] meet their standards or like the guys
[00:15:21] that they do meet are CADs and and treat
[00:15:25] them horribly, which antagonism between
[00:15:27] the sexes. This group of men at the
[00:15:29] bottom feel largely invisible and they
[00:15:31] retreat away from this. Anyway,
[00:15:34] >> no, not anyway. That's a a really
[00:15:37] succinct and smart description of like
[00:15:39] the central problem. I I it's a a
[00:15:42] fundamental issue based on how women and
[00:15:45] men tend to want to mate. Now, this
[00:15:48] being said, guys also have their
[00:15:50] preferences. They tend to optimize for
[00:15:52] youth and cues of fertility, like
[00:15:55] hourglass body shape, this isn't just to
[00:15:56] say that women have got mating
[00:15:57] preferences, so do men. But when women
[00:16:00] say sort of where are all of the good
[00:16:01] men at? I think this is one of the the
[00:16:03] fundamental issues that's kind of hiding
[00:16:06] in plain view which is typically women
[00:16:09] want to date up and across but if they
[00:16:10] have uh grown up through in their own
[00:16:14] competence hierarchy there is a ever
[00:16:16] decreasing group of guys that they're
[00:16:18] going to find attractive.
[00:16:18] >> Exactly right. So I started talking
[00:16:20] about this maybe about four years ago
[00:16:22] and then recently some data came out
[00:16:25] that said the bottom 40% of men in terms
[00:16:30] of earning and the top 20% of women in
[00:16:33] terms of earning have females as the
[00:16:36] primary bread winner within the
[00:16:37] household. So from 0 to 40 men they earn
[00:16:41] less than their female partner. And in
[00:16:44] the women's camp, the top 20% of female
[00:16:46] earners also earn more than their male
[00:16:49] partner. So this hypergamy, which is
[00:16:51] what it would have been, has been
[00:16:52] replaced by hypandrousness
[00:16:55] uh hyperandrousness, which is women as
[00:16:58] the primary bread winner. In these
[00:16:59] relationships, men are twice as likely
[00:17:01] to use erectile dysfunction medication.
[00:17:03] If a guy loses his job, the uh
[00:17:05] likelihood of divorce doubles, whereas
[00:17:07] if a woman loses a job, there's no
[00:17:09] change in terms of divorce. uh all of
[00:17:12] these things. Do we lay this at the feet
[00:17:15] of well men need to be able to deal with
[00:17:18] a woman who's high performing and so on
[00:17:19] and so forth. It's like typically guys
[00:17:22] are the protagonists and women are the
[00:17:24] gatekeepers when it comes to making a
[00:17:27] relationship start like guys are the
[00:17:29] ones that are forthcoming.
[00:17:31] So women tend to be the selectors and if
[00:17:33] that's the case and women are struggling
[00:17:35] to find guys that they're attracted to
[00:17:37] I think this has a big role to play.
[00:17:40] So nicely put. Um this experiment began
[00:17:44] about 60 years ago. Um and it was based
[00:17:48] on the idea really the article of faith
[00:17:51] that men and women were exactly the same
[00:17:53] and the gender differences were social
[00:17:55] constructs. None of this was genetic or
[00:17:57] inborn. It had nothing to do with
[00:17:58] nature. It was just like society created
[00:18:00] these roles for men and women
[00:18:01] arbitrarily
[00:18:03] and they needed to be ignored.
[00:18:06] And that turned out not to be true. like
[00:18:08] these differences persist. If anything,
[00:18:11] they're more obvious now than they were
[00:18:12] 60 years ago.
[00:18:14] >> And so maybe a system based on nature
[00:18:19] acknowledging the natural differences
[00:18:20] without, you know, you don't need to be
[00:18:21] rigid about it. They're anomalies. Of
[00:18:23] course, not everyone, you know, follows
[00:18:25] the same path. But in general, over a
[00:18:26] population like
[00:18:28] >> men and women are completely different.
[00:18:30] >> Men prefer certain things. They thrive
[00:18:31] under certain circumstances. And the
[00:18:32] same is true for women. Why wouldn't you
[00:18:34] design a system consistent with nature?
[00:18:37] What would that look like to you?
[00:18:39] >> It would look like what we had before
[00:18:40] Betty Ferdan wrote the feminine mystique
[00:18:43] before lifestyle feminism
[00:18:47] dominated every institution in the west.
[00:18:49] Before we started lying to ourselves
[00:18:51] about how we were totally disconnected
[00:18:54] from nature. It would acknowledge that
[00:18:56] every person is created by God in my
[00:18:59] view but with a distinct set of talents
[00:19:03] and deficits which is to say for a
[00:19:05] specific purpose. Certain people are
[00:19:06] good at certain things. I know it's true
[00:19:08] for me. I know it's true for you. And we
[00:19:11] should allow people to follow life paths
[00:19:14] consistent with the way that they were
[00:19:16] born, right? I mean, that's it. And the
[00:19:19] overwhelming majority of men want to be
[00:19:22] the bread winner in the home.
[00:19:24] >> And the overwhelming majority of women
[00:19:26] want that, too.
[00:19:27] >> Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's an
[00:19:29] interesting one, right? Because it's
[00:19:30] very hard to try and put forward
[00:19:31] something that doesn't sound like
[00:19:34] putting the brakes on women. And I don't
[00:19:36] think that that's what either of us
[00:19:37] >> are women happier than they were. We
[00:19:40] actually we know that we know the answer
[00:19:42] because there's been a longitudinal
[00:19:43] study underway since the early '7s that
[00:19:47] asks
[00:19:48] American women am a lot of questions but
[00:19:50] one of them is are you happier and
[00:19:52] female happiness has declined
[00:19:54] >> for over 50 years.
[00:19:56] >> I would imagine men's has too.
[00:19:58] >> You ever feel like the end of the month
[00:19:59] all of your money's gone? Where'd it go?
[00:20:02] Well, one of the places it went is to
[00:20:04] unnecessary subscriptions. You probably
[00:20:06] have a lot of them. One night, for
[00:20:08] example, you decide to watch a movie, so
[00:20:09] you download a streaming service that
[00:20:11] carries it, but then you forget to
[00:20:12] cancel the service. They're banking on
[00:20:14] that, by the way. The next weekend, you
[00:20:16] want to watch a different movie, so you
[00:20:17] download another streaming service that
[00:20:19] carries that movie, but you forget to
[00:20:21] cancel that, too. And the next thing you
[00:20:23] know, you're paying hundreds of dollars
[00:20:25] a month for subscriptions you forgot you
[00:20:27] had and don't need. One of the many
[00:20:29] perils of modern life. We have a
[00:20:31] solution. We're excited to partner with
[00:20:33] Rocket Money. It's a great company that
[00:20:35] can help you fix all of this. It's a
[00:20:37] personal finance app that helps you find
[00:20:39] and cancel your unwanted subscriptions,
[00:20:42] monitors your spending in a
[00:20:44] non-judgmental way, and helps you lower
[00:20:46] your bills. You can grow your savings.
[00:20:48] The app so far has saved users we
[00:20:50] estimate $2.5 billion, including over
[00:20:53] $880 million in cancelled subscriptions
[00:20:56] alone.
[00:20:58] 10 million people use Rocket Money and
[00:21:01] save up to $740 per year when they use
[00:21:03] all of the app's premium features. It's
[00:21:06] easy to use. It's super effective. A few
[00:21:08] clicks and you're done. You save. Cancel
[00:21:11] your unwanted subscriptions. Reach your
[00:21:13] financial goals faster with RocketMoney.
[00:21:15] Go to rocketmoney.com/tucker
[00:21:17] today. rocketmoney.com/tucker.
[00:21:21] I That's probably right. In a lot of
[00:21:23] ways, the women's movement was good for
[00:21:25] men because it allowed, you know,
[00:21:27] justified promiscuity, which is like a
[00:21:29] high male priority just in general
[00:21:31] because it's nature.
[00:21:32] >> You want to impregnate as many females
[00:21:33] as you can. But it didn't make women
[00:21:36] happier. And it's very obvious just as
[00:21:38] someone who occasionally goes to
[00:21:40] restaurants and airports and 100% of the
[00:21:41] people who scream at me are, you know,
[00:21:43] college educated women. It's like, what?
[00:21:45] Why are they so angry? Well, they're so
[00:21:46] angry because they believe the lie,
[00:21:49] which is that nature doesn't matter. So,
[00:21:50] I don't know that this is liberty. Does
[00:21:52] anyone really think that women are
[00:21:53] liberated or are they enslaved to their
[00:21:57] employers? That's what it looks like to
[00:21:58] me.
[00:21:58] >> Certainly tethered in some ways. Yeah. I
[00:22:00] think uh
[00:22:03] some of the worst parts of modern
[00:22:05] feminism taught women that true
[00:22:07] liberation was having sex like their
[00:22:09] brother and working like their father.
[00:22:10] >> Exactly.
[00:22:11] >> Um that being said, I don't want to put
[00:22:13] the brakes on the opportunity for some
[00:22:15] woman who really wants to go to college
[00:22:16] or university and learn and then earn
[00:22:18] off the back of that. I don't think that
[00:22:20] that's a good idea. Like
[00:22:22] >> it's not the solution to say, "Okay,
[00:22:24] women, get out of the boardroom and back
[00:22:25] into the kitchen as if that's what needs
[00:22:28] to happen." But when you just accept the
[00:22:30] fact that
[00:22:32] if you don't feel secure and safe to be
[00:22:36] able to look after yourself and to be
[00:22:38] able to create a family, then you
[00:22:40] supplement building family for building
[00:22:42] career. And that means that well, you've
[00:22:45] just supplanted
[00:22:48] being a a family builder for being a a
[00:22:51] worker drone.
[00:22:52] >> Well, that's exactly right. And I I
[00:22:55] think we're a long way from forcing
[00:22:56] women back into the kitchen. American
[00:22:58] women don't know how to cook, so that
[00:22:59] would be a pretty abrupt change anyway.
[00:23:02] But I I think it would be enough to kind
[00:23:05] of level the playing field
[00:23:07] >> and stop telling girls the greatest lie
[00:23:11] of all, which is that you have a moral
[00:23:12] duty to work at a bank and you'll be
[00:23:14] happier when you do. That's a lie. And
[00:23:17] sort of take an a our school should take
[00:23:19] an agnostic position on this stuff and
[00:23:21] not like encourage girls to do something
[00:23:23] for which they are not suited and that
[00:23:25] will not bring them happiness. It won't.
[00:23:27] Look, I think that I think that
[00:23:29] certainly in the past, it seems like uh
[00:23:33] women and girls who wanted to go into a
[00:23:36] a career, learn uh and continue to do
[00:23:39] the professional development thing did
[00:23:40] not feel like they were able to do that.
[00:23:43] That being said, there is a difference
[00:23:45] between enabling women to be able to go
[00:23:47] and chase a career in their education
[00:23:50] and dergating the role of motherhood,
[00:23:52] right? There is a big difference between
[00:23:53] that.
[00:23:54] >> That's it right there. Um, so Andrew
[00:23:55] Schultz came on my show and him and his
[00:23:57] wife had a a difficult process getting
[00:23:59] pregnant and they finally did after
[00:24:01] going through IVF and and he was so
[00:24:03] happy and I didn't realize but his wife
[00:24:05] used to work at Google and she had this
[00:24:07] uh highowered job and and they still
[00:24:09] live in a similar area to where she used
[00:24:11] to previously and she would bump into
[00:24:14] her old colleagues at the supermarket
[00:24:16] with Andrew. They've got their their new
[00:24:18] baby and uh colleagues would say so what
[00:24:21] are you doing now? And this response
[00:24:24] that she gave that Andrew had to watch
[00:24:26] said killed him. She says, "Oh, I'm just
[00:24:29] a mom." Andrew said it was the just
[00:24:32] >> Oh,
[00:24:33] >> that really got to him.
[00:24:34] >> I've lived this. Yes. No, I I know. And
[00:24:37] this I mean, let's just stop lying. The
[00:24:38] social pressure comes primarily from
[00:24:40] other women.
[00:24:42] You know, the real cruelty toward women
[00:24:44] in any culture comes from women. They're
[00:24:46] really hard on each other in a way
[00:24:48] that's hard for me to deal with as a man
[00:24:50] who loves women. They're really hard on
[00:24:52] each other. They're terrible bosses of
[00:24:54] other women in general. They tend to be
[00:24:57] much harder on women than they are on
[00:24:59] men, whatever. So, but all of that
[00:25:01] pressure. There's no man I've never met
[00:25:03] a man who's like, you know, I'm I'm
[00:25:06] annoyed that my wife wants to raise our
[00:25:08] children or stay home or doesn't feel
[00:25:10] like, you know, shleing to the bank
[00:25:12] >> every day. No man feels that way. It's
[00:25:14] other women who are like, what are you
[00:25:15] doing? What do you do with your day? you
[00:25:18] know, and put this not so subtle social
[00:25:19] pressure on women to pretend to be men.
[00:25:23] What is that?
[00:25:24] >> Well, look, I'm very glad that I'm not
[00:25:27] having to navigate the complex social
[00:25:30] structure that women do. Intraexual
[00:25:31] competition for women is like
[00:25:34] >> they are samurai when it comes to the
[00:25:37] social hierarchy between each other.
[00:25:40] >> Yes, correct. Intraexual.
[00:25:41] >> What is that?
[00:25:42] >> Well, look, um, men are able to compete
[00:25:45] for dominance in a much more obvious
[00:25:46] way.
[00:25:50] women
[00:25:54] reprod
[00:26:06] it's it's
[00:26:07] >> what what does that mean venting?
[00:26:08] >> Venting. So um me and you are uh hunter
[00:26:12] gatherers and we have another friend.
[00:26:15] Uh, I'm Christine. Uh, you can be Tara.
[00:26:19] And our other friend, uh, Julia has been
[00:26:22] maybe, uh, starting to flirt with some
[00:26:24] of the guys around camp. And I can say
[00:26:25] to you, Tara, I'm just so worried about
[00:26:29] Julia. Like, she's like hanging out with
[00:26:31] all of these guys and she's like, you
[00:26:33] know, she seems to I'm just so worried
[00:26:34] that she's going to get hurt. Like, she
[00:26:36] seems to be sleeping around and it's
[00:26:38] Yeah, I just I'm so concerned for her.
[00:26:40] Me as Christine, I seem benevolent. What
[00:26:42] I've done is basically just open up the
[00:26:44] floodgates about how this other woman is
[00:26:47] behaving. This is a very
[00:26:52] uh subtle uh form of uh gossip that is
[00:26:57] done couched underneath the uh
[00:27:02] the cover of care. Now, this is a very
[00:27:06] unique challenge that women have to
[00:27:07] face. And to every single woman, they
[00:27:09] know how tough it is to navigate the
[00:27:12] intricacies of female friendship. It's
[00:27:14] I'm so glad that I do not have to
[00:27:17] >> get through that. All of that being
[00:27:19] said,
[00:27:19] >> can I ask though what um that's so
[00:27:21] familiar to anyone who's lived around
[00:27:23] women, to a man who's lived around
[00:27:25] women, and I've thought a thousand times
[00:27:26] in my life, you know, all the women are
[00:27:28] always so nice to me. You know, they're
[00:27:29] just nice to men. I think in general,
[00:27:31] they're just that's the default. Women
[00:27:33] are nice to men, but they are so hard on
[00:27:36] each other, so cruel sometimes to each
[00:27:38] other. What's the purpose of that
[00:27:40] exactly?
[00:27:42] >> I don't know about the cruelty, but I
[00:27:43] certainly know the way that women that
[00:27:45] women compete is not as overt as as the
[00:27:49] way that men do. Um, you know, in order
[00:27:52] for women to be able to uh rise up,
[00:27:55] throw their own hierarchy, it's a lot
[00:27:57] more around who am I friends with, how
[00:27:59] am I perceived, as opposed to with guys,
[00:28:01] it's like, oh, you're the strong one.
[00:28:02] you can carry the bull back. You're the
[00:28:04] fast one. You can track down the
[00:28:06] particular animal. You're the one that's
[00:28:07] good with the spear. We can guys tend to
[00:28:09] sort of settle out into hierarchies a
[00:28:11] little bit more easily than than women
[00:28:13] do. Uh and it doesn't seem to be quite
[00:28:15] the same way for women. So, you see a
[00:28:18] lot of um downplaying of accomplishments
[00:28:21] among women, which is one of the reasons
[00:28:23] that I think they've struggled in the
[00:28:24] past in the workplace. Girls come out of
[00:28:27] a an exam and they'll say, "You you'll
[00:28:29] have done so well in that. You're so
[00:28:30] smart." Oh, I'm not like I know I could
[00:28:32] not be. Whereas dudes will have come out
[00:28:33] and they'll say like uh dude, I bet you
[00:28:36] suck at that thing as opposed to
[00:28:39] this sort of uh very subtle couched um
[00:28:42] uh competition that happens between
[00:28:44] women. It's just it's much more subtle
[00:28:46] the way that women compete.
[00:28:48] >> They're very So if you go to a party
[00:28:50] with a woman, you show up at a party
[00:28:51] with a woman,
[00:28:54] she only notices the other women in the
[00:28:57] room. Women are constantly I've always
[00:28:59] noticed this. are constantly assessing
[00:29:00] each other. Did you see what she was
[00:29:02] wearing?
[00:29:02] >> No. You know what I mean? But women
[00:29:05] always notice each other. They're they
[00:29:08] >> look at each other. They assess
[00:29:09] immediately. There's always an edge to
[00:29:11] it. Like what is that? Why why is there
[00:29:13] a constant state of competition?
[00:29:16] >> [snorts]
[00:29:16] >> Uh, I'm going to guess that
[00:29:20] the way that women would have been wired
[00:29:22] in the past before they were able to
[00:29:24] exist independently is that they would
[00:29:26] have needed to compete for the mate that
[00:29:27] was able to provide them with resources
[00:29:29] and security. And in order to be able to
[00:29:32] do that, it's very important to be
[00:29:33] perceived well by the other women in the
[00:29:35] tribe. Uh, a woman who's on her own, a
[00:29:38] woman or a man who's on their own are
[00:29:39] really going to struggle. But
[00:29:40] particularly with regards to uh finding
[00:29:43] a mate, I think you need that colleial
[00:29:45] group. Women do aloe parenting as well.
[00:29:47] It's kind of rare in the animal world
[00:29:49] where they have non-kin that help to
[00:29:52] look after their children. So they have
[00:29:53] coalitions that help to raise kids which
[00:29:56] means you need to have friends. You need
[00:29:58] to work out where am I in the hierarchy.
[00:29:59] That's right. And I've got a track in
[00:30:01] that sort of a way.
[00:30:02] >> Alo parenting.
[00:30:02] >> Alo parenting it's referred to as Yeah.
[00:30:04] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's the reason that
[00:30:06] supposedly women go through menopause.
[00:30:07] So the reason that um women still exist
[00:30:10] after reproductive age is this thing
[00:30:12] called the grandmother hypothesis.
[00:30:13] Grandmother hypothesis says that uh it
[00:30:18] is important children human children are
[00:30:20] so useless and blobby and highly
[00:30:24] resource dependent that you need to have
[00:30:27] additional care from women who are good
[00:30:30] at looking after children.
[00:30:32] >> Yes.
[00:30:32] >> Without those women contributing more
[00:30:34] children to be looked after. So the
[00:30:36] grandmother hypothesis,
[00:30:38] >> you age out of being able to contribute
[00:30:40] more children to the group, but you are
[00:30:42] still able to contribute to raising the
[00:30:44] children that are in the group. And uh
[00:30:46] this is why the move away from
[00:30:48] pgenerational housing. And you know, you
[00:30:51] at 18 go to university or move away from
[00:30:54] home is really novel because for pretty
[00:30:58] much all of human history, you would
[00:30:59] have had people living in in the same
[00:31:01] sorts of groups.
[00:31:04] >> Yeah. And it just makes everyone it just
[00:31:06] atomizes the entire population, makes
[00:31:08] them easier to control, you know.
[00:31:09] >> Well, I think one of the problems that
[00:31:11] you have when talking about the problems
[00:31:13] of boys and men is this sort of
[00:31:14] perspective that empathy is zero sum.
[00:31:18] That by giving empathy to men, you are
[00:31:20] taking it away from some other group
[00:31:23] which is more deserving. And
[00:31:27] it's a shame because it suggests that we
[00:31:31] can't do two things at once. that any uh
[00:31:34] attempt to raise men up is implicitly
[00:31:37] also bringing women down. And I don't
[00:31:38] think that this is what me or you are
[00:31:40] >> you really think that
[00:31:41] >> I think that that's how it's perceived
[00:31:42] at least like this sense that after all
[00:31:44] haven't men had it good for long enough
[00:31:46] like maybe they should just sort of suck
[00:31:48] it up and and and deal with it.
[00:31:49] >> So what do you hear in that statement
[00:31:51] that you just made? What what's the
[00:31:52] undertone there? What's the motive?
[00:31:56] >> Hey, that's an angry statement. You're
[00:31:58] angry at someone when you say that.
[00:32:00] You're not trying to elevate anybody.
[00:32:02] Mhm.
[00:32:02] >> You're trying to destroy someone else.
[00:32:05] >> I mean, you just said it and that
[00:32:06] statement is very familiar to anyone
[00:32:07] who's lived in the West for the past 40
[00:32:09] years. Well, I white men. White men
[00:32:12] >> and it's like you're saying that because
[00:32:13] you hate those people. Most coffee
[00:32:16] companies sell weakness, watered down
[00:32:17] drinks from faceless corporations that
[00:32:19] don't care about you or your family.
[00:32:21] Black Rifle, which not to brag is in
[00:32:24] this cup right here, is very different.
[00:32:26] It's roasted and [music] brewed in this
[00:32:28] country without apology by patriotic men
[00:32:31] and women. The coffee is built by people
[00:32:33] who love the US and know what it means
[00:32:35] to fight for it. We know them. We know
[00:32:37] the guys who run it. We've known them
[00:32:38] for a long time. And we know this is
[00:32:40] true. They're special forces veterans,
[00:32:43] ranchers, just decent people. They're
[00:32:45] the best of us. And the coffee is
[00:32:47] strong. The energy drinks, ooh, even
[00:32:49] stronger. It's not sugar water, not
[00:32:51] empty marketing. Fuel for people who get
[00:32:53] up early, work late, keep this nation
[00:32:55] running. Every purchase helps support
[00:32:57] veterans, first responders, law
[00:32:59] enforcement. From bold roast to ready to
[00:33:01] drink cans, mugs, t-shirts, gear, Black
[00:33:03] Rifle makes products with pride. Can a
[00:33:05] lot of companies say that? No, they
[00:33:07] can't.
[00:33:09] Visit blackrifle.com. Use code Tucker
[00:33:11] for 30% off your first order. That's
[00:33:13] black rifle coffee.com. Code Tucker. Or
[00:33:16] pick it up at your local convenience or
[00:33:18] grocery store. You will love it. And the
[00:33:21] results are exactly what you would
[00:33:23] expect if an entire society turns
[00:33:25] against a group decides that they're
[00:33:28] despised and for good reason
[00:33:30] >> and then you know lays out this program
[00:33:33] for decades limiting their
[00:33:35] opportunities, demoralizing them,
[00:33:37] barking at them, forcing them to deny
[00:33:40] their inherent nature.
[00:33:42] >> Like they end up suicidal like it's not
[00:33:45] that complicated, is it? And I don't
[00:33:46] think it has anything with empathy. It's
[00:33:48] hate. It's hate posing as empathy.
[00:33:50] >> Yeah. I think if you've been on the side
[00:33:53] of the beneficiary for a long time
[00:33:55] typically, I mean, apart from the fact
[00:33:57] that you died more in war and of
[00:33:59] >> the beneficiary says who?
[00:34:01] >> Yeah. But if if you've appeared
[00:34:02] >> to wake up early every morning and then
[00:34:04] die young. Yeah. Okay.
[00:34:05] >> Look, I I think a common question is why
[00:34:08] don't men just do better, right? Sort of
[00:34:10] chop chop. Can't you fix your health and
[00:34:12] your education and your employment by
[00:34:13] pulling yourself up by your bootstraps?
[00:34:15] Like stop being so useless. The problem
[00:34:17] is no other group is told when they
[00:34:21] suffer with poor performance or
[00:34:22] accolades in the real world that they
[00:34:24] should just pull themselves up by the by
[00:34:25] their bootstraps. Like we spend billions
[00:34:27] in taxpayer funded money to start up
[00:34:30] foundations and charities and and
[00:34:33] committees and departments and campaigns
[00:34:36] to work out what's going on. Like
[00:34:38] basically if any group has a problem
[00:34:41] typically we say what can we do to fix
[00:34:43] the world to help you along? But if men
[00:34:45] have a problem, we say, "What is it that
[00:34:47] men are doing where they don't fix
[00:34:48] themselves?"
[00:34:49] And in some ways, this is sort of
[00:34:51] inspiring and agentic because it says,
[00:34:53] "You can sort this out, but when it's
[00:34:56] not being uh delivered with the
[00:34:59] structural support that's needed to try
[00:35:02] and counterbalance a lot of the changes,
[00:35:04] education, employment, socioeconomic
[00:35:06] status, etc., displacement. Um, what it
[00:35:08] results in is struggling guys being not
[00:35:11] given a leg up and then being sort of
[00:35:13] having the finger pointed at them. So,
[00:35:15] it's it's a blatant double.
[00:35:16] >> Well, not just not giving a leg up. I
[00:35:17] mean, when you systematically deny
[00:35:19] people education and job opportunities
[00:35:21] on the basis of their sex and race,
[00:35:24] you're trying to kill them. Like, what
[00:35:26] else would that be?
[00:35:27] >> Trying to keep people from getting into
[00:35:28] school and get jobs because the way they
[00:35:29] were born.
[00:35:31] >> I mean, how is that different from these
[00:35:33] systems that we claim we hate? It's not.
[00:35:35] It's the same system.
[00:35:37] And I I just so I don't I don't think
[00:35:39] it's not giving them a leg up. I don't I
[00:35:41] don't know that anyone needs a leg up
[00:35:43] necessarily. I just like how about a
[00:35:45] fair playing field where you stop like
[00:35:49] hurting people for things they can't
[00:35:50] control.
[00:35:52] >> Well, I think men
[00:35:52] >> maybe the UK is different. I'm just
[00:35:54] saying the United States for 40 years
[00:35:56] we've had a system in law that says if
[00:35:59] you're a white man, you get fewer
[00:36:01] opportunities. Period. And it it exists.
[00:36:03] No one's done anything about it, by the
[00:36:04] way, despite lots of we're going to fix
[00:36:05] it. No one's even tried to dismantle it.
[00:36:09] So like what is that?
[00:36:10] >> But I think a lot of men feel like their
[00:36:13] difficulties are dismissed out of hand
[00:36:16] as whining from a patriarchy that they
[00:36:19] no longer feel a part of. It feels like
[00:36:21] men are in the modern world being made
[00:36:24] to pay for these supposed advantages of
[00:36:27] their father and their grandfathers.
[00:36:29] >> Right?
[00:36:29] >> And it it causes guys to check out. I
[00:36:32] mean the term toxic masculinity, right?
[00:36:34] Think about that. Think about saying
[00:36:36] there is something about you which is so
[00:36:39] inherently broken. It's like original
[00:36:40] sin,
[00:36:41] >> right? There is this part of you deep
[00:36:43] down that needs to be expuned in some
[00:36:47] sort of a way or exercised. There is a
[00:36:49] bit of you that's broken. If you want to
[00:36:51] prove to guys that they they're not
[00:36:55] welcome as a part of this conversation
[00:36:56] in a a a
[00:36:59] communal, collaborative, compassionate
[00:37:01] way. I think that's one of the the best
[00:37:03] ways to to get them to switch off. I
[00:37:05] mean, there was a I I collected this
[00:37:07] list of different headlines about
[00:37:10] different things that were toxic
[00:37:11] masculinity. It was like uh physical
[00:37:13] fitness, fast food, Brexit was toxic
[00:37:16] masculinity, climate change was toxic
[00:37:18] masculinity, the climate crisis, the
[00:37:20] election of Donald Trump, uh eating
[00:37:22] meat, driving cars, wearing axe body
[00:37:25] spray, uh saying hello or have a nice
[00:37:28] day. All fantastic examples of toxic
[00:37:31] masculinity. Basically, toxic
[00:37:33] masculinity became this catch-all term
[00:37:35] to be used to describe the behavior of
[00:37:38] any guy that you find unpleasant. And it
[00:37:41] just causes men to check out. Okay, I'm
[00:37:43] not welcome.
[00:37:43] >> Why does it It's It's interesting you
[00:37:45] say that though because I've been
[00:37:47] waiting for I mean decades for
[00:37:51] for the actual oppressed groups in say
[00:37:53] the United States to say, "Nah, we're
[00:37:54] not doing this anymore." you know, fix
[00:37:56] your own power grid or whatever. Build
[00:37:59] your own. They're not capable, of
[00:38:00] course. So, of of really like anywhere
[00:38:04] from like a sit down strike to an actual
[00:38:06] revolution
[00:38:08] >> and and I've been, of course, praying
[00:38:09] for that because I think it's really
[00:38:10] important. I mean,
[00:38:13] >> No, I'm serious. This is too much. This
[00:38:15] is this is totally genocidal. And but
[00:38:17] instead,
[00:38:19] they haven't done anything like that.
[00:38:20] They're just like, I'll just take more
[00:38:22] SSRIs, watch more porn, smoke more weed,
[00:38:25] pretend I'm liberated, and just like as
[00:38:27] you said, just drop out.
[00:38:28] >> Yeah. Okay. So,
[00:38:31] there is an interesting question given
[00:38:33] that men are uh displaced, dissatisfied,
[00:38:37] and unmated. Why is there not the
[00:38:41] concurrent type of revolutionary
[00:38:43] behavior that we might expect?
[00:38:44] >> Yeah, you would think. I mean, I'm just
[00:38:45] being I'm being sincere. I shouldn't
[00:38:47] have said I'm praying for that though I
[00:38:50] am and not for violence of course but
[00:38:52] for like we're not how about no okay cuz
[00:38:55] I think of that as like a male
[00:38:57] >> that's like one of the things that men
[00:38:58] contribute how about no like that's the
[00:39:00] dad's job how about no
[00:39:01] >> yeah disagreeability is one of the
[00:39:02] >> yeah it is it is and it has you know
[00:39:04] it's unpleasant but it actually has an
[00:39:07] essential place in any functioning
[00:39:08] society so but we've not even brushed up
[00:39:10] against that why
[00:39:12] >> strap in for this one so uh Togo
[00:39:14] hypothesis was one of my favorites this
[00:39:16] is one of my others and this is the male
[00:39:18] sedation hypothesis. So throughout
[00:39:20] history there is an idea called young
[00:39:22] male syndrome. If you have a high number
[00:39:24] of young unpartnered men, they tend to
[00:39:28] be antisocial. They um push over cars
[00:39:31] and set granny on fire and cause
[00:39:33] revolutions and uprisings and stuff like
[00:39:35] that. If there has ever been a society
[00:39:37] throughout history that has lots of
[00:39:39] unpartnered young men, they tend to
[00:39:41] cause problems. When men get into a
[00:39:43] relationship, the testosterone drops.
[00:39:45] when they have kids, their testosterone
[00:39:46] drops again. So, in this regard, women
[00:39:49] very much domesticate men. They make
[00:39:51] they make them more pro-social. They
[00:39:54] reduce their risk-taking behavior. This
[00:39:55] is good. If you've got a baby at home,
[00:39:57] you need to not think, "Oh, I'll just
[00:39:58] jump off that cliff for fun." Like, no,
[00:40:00] there's a kid at home. Chill out.
[00:40:01] Exactly.
[00:40:02] >> So
[00:40:04] historically there has been a tendency
[00:40:07] for these kinds of societies with high
[00:40:10] numbers of unpartnered young men to
[00:40:13] cause problems given that we have got
[00:40:16] high rates of sexlessness uh
[00:40:17] displacement among young men in the
[00:40:19] modern world. Why is it that we haven't
[00:40:21] seen the concurrent kinetic outcomes of
[00:40:24] this? And it's my belief that men are
[00:40:26] being sedated out of their status
[00:40:28] seeking and reproductive seeking
[00:40:30] behavior through video games, screen,
[00:40:33] and porn. So, this is not enough of a
[00:40:35] dose to make men happy, but it is enough
[00:40:38] of a dose to stop them from going
[00:40:41] nuclear, uh, banding together, causing
[00:40:44] some sort of an uprising. So, uh,
[00:40:47] >> would you call this a hypothesis rather
[00:40:48] than just an obvious fact?
[00:40:50] >> Look, I mean, I probably should call it
[00:40:52] a notion. And I think for a hypothesis,
[00:40:53] you actually need to properly do a study
[00:40:55] for
[00:40:55] >> I'm just going to state it as
[00:40:57] >> good. Male sedation
[00:40:57] >> irrefutable reality.
[00:40:59] >> Male sedation truth. Yeah, we call it
[00:41:00] that.
[00:41:01] >> Um, but I think that video games, what
[00:41:04] is it that it gives men? It gives them a
[00:41:06] sense of progress, of camaraderie, uh,
[00:41:08] of of goal seeking behavior. Um, and you
[00:41:11] know, for winding down half an hour a
[00:41:15] couple of nights a week, perhaps that's
[00:41:16] a a cool thing to do. But when it
[00:41:17] completely consumes your life because
[00:41:19] you don't feel like you have agency or
[00:41:21] progress or you can make changes in the
[00:41:23] real world. So you supplant your real
[00:41:25] world pursuits for video game pursuits.
[00:41:27] We all realize that there is a a a dose
[00:41:30] dependent curve that beyond which you
[00:41:32] are spending too much time in the
[00:41:33] virtual world. The same thing goes for
[00:41:35] screens. This is the sense of
[00:41:36] camaraderie and group seeeking behavior
[00:41:39] that typically you would have gotten by
[00:41:40] going out and doing something and
[00:41:42] would have occurred due to that. Again
[00:41:43] says the two people that make their
[00:41:45] living on the internet. But I understand
[00:41:47] influencers and and commentators and
[00:41:49] stuff aside, most people that are
[00:41:51] spending their time on screens are not
[00:41:52] doing it to try and create something.
[00:41:54] They're more consuming than they are
[00:41:55] creating. And then when we look at porn,
[00:41:57] there is this titrated dose of just
[00:42:00] about enough sexual gratification for
[00:42:03] men to not go out and do something
[00:42:04] unspeakable in order to be able to
[00:42:06] satisfy it. Now,
[00:42:08] it's not great that we have this balance
[00:42:12] between useless and dangerous men. And
[00:42:16] perhaps right now, given the current
[00:42:18] world that we're in, it's 5149
[00:42:22] preferable to not have dangerous men.
[00:42:24] But the only reason that I can see for
[00:42:26] that is that we're in a time of peace.
[00:42:28] if we were in a time of war and you
[00:42:29] needed to galvanize young men to
[00:42:31] actually be useful, you have huge swaths
[00:42:34] of guys that are just not really
[00:42:37] prepared to do it. So yeah, I think
[00:42:39] >> a a great question would be where are
[00:42:41] all of the incel killings at? This is
[00:42:44] not a request, right? This is not me
[00:42:46] putting a request in with the DJ,
[00:42:48] >> but you would you would expect
[00:42:51] >> more
[00:42:54] >> you would expect more uprising and some
[00:42:55] revolutionary behavior in the real
[00:42:57] world.
[00:42:58] >> Yes.
[00:42:59] >> If you were to just sort of state the
[00:43:00] facts of how young guys are doing and
[00:43:04] getting into a relationship drops
[00:43:05] testosterone, having kids drops
[00:43:06] testosterone, etc., etc., 50% of men aed
[00:43:09] 18 to 30 haven't approached a woman in
[00:43:11] the last year. So like lots of them are
[00:43:13] not engaging with women in that sort of
[00:43:14] way. Even at the first hurdle,
[00:43:18] where is all of this kinetic interaction
[00:43:22] at? Well, I I think the reason that this
[00:43:25] isn't happening is because they're being
[00:43:27] sedated out of out of that kind of
[00:43:29] >> there's any question when I was a child
[00:43:32] the most sophisticated analysts of
[00:43:34] Islamic terror which really kind of
[00:43:37] began well at least in my view in 1975
[00:43:40] with the with the civil war in Lebanon
[00:43:43] there's like a lot of there was Islamic
[00:43:44] terror and the question was why
[00:43:46] >> and one of the most compelling
[00:43:47] explanations that I ever heard was
[00:43:49] polygamy
[00:43:50] >> because these are societies
[00:43:52] Lebanon is not not a lot of polygamy in
[00:43:54] Lebanon but Saudi a lot of polygamy.
[00:43:58] >> These societies leave a large percentage
[00:44:01] of young men unmarried with no hope of
[00:44:03] marriage because the rich guys grab all
[00:44:05] the all the women.
[00:44:06] >> So you have sexually frustrated, lonely,
[00:44:08] purposeless drones with surging
[00:44:11] testosterone and they take it out in
[00:44:13] acts of violence that we call terrorism.
[00:44:14] So that I thought that was like seemed
[00:44:16] right to me. China very worried about
[00:44:19] what's with all these excess men. great
[00:44:21] belt and road to like get them out of
[00:44:22] the country.
[00:44:24] >> That hasn't happened in the west. We
[00:44:26] haven't had revolutionary behavior
[00:44:29] because of the reasons that you
[00:44:31] described in I think was a really smart
[00:44:33] analysis.
[00:44:34] >> M and tobacco is a huge part of this
[00:44:36] too. Nicotine raises testosterone levels
[00:44:39] there. They've been fanatically opposed
[00:44:41] to not just tobacco,
[00:44:43] >> which is delicious, but to nicotine,
[00:44:45] which no health effects, why would you
[00:44:47] be against nicotine? Because it raises
[00:44:48] testosterone levels. My question to you
[00:44:50] is to what extent
[00:44:52] has that pacification campaign been
[00:44:56] conscious? Has it been intentional?
[00:44:58] >> That's a good question. Look, I I tend
[00:45:01] to not uh go beyond the impact of what's
[00:45:04] happening and and try to uh I haven't
[00:45:07] investigated how much of this has been
[00:45:09] uh consciously constructed. Uh that's
[00:45:11] that's that's not my area of expertise.
[00:45:13] >> And it may be irrelevant, by the way,
[00:45:14] whether it was on purpose or not, it's
[00:45:16] happening. So,
[00:45:17] >> yeah. Look,
[00:45:18] >> can I ask you a different question?
[00:45:20] >> Yeah, of course.
[00:45:20] >> If and I'm sorry you even asked it cuz
[00:45:22] like who knows? It's impossible to know.
[00:45:24] We could only guess. Probably not a good
[00:45:25] idea.
[00:45:26] >> Instead, let me ask
[00:45:28] >> if the majority of men under 30 in the
[00:45:32] United States committed to getting
[00:45:35] sober,
[00:45:36] chewing porn,
[00:45:38] >> no more video games, physical fitness,
[00:45:42] no more carbs.
[00:45:43] >> Yeah.
[00:45:44] >> No, I'm serious.
[00:45:45] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:45:46] which probably how you live.
[00:45:48] >> What would the country look like after a
[00:45:50] year?
[00:45:51] >> Well, yeah, that would be an interesting
[00:45:53] one. Well,
[00:45:53] >> like politically,
[00:45:56] >> uh, I mean, there would be I think
[00:45:58] that there would be a lot of changes.
[00:45:59] >> You think?
[00:46:00] >> But I just I'm I'm not com It would be
[00:46:03] really interesting to run that
[00:46:05] experiment. It would be really really
[00:46:06] interesting and there would be some
[00:46:08] negative externalities from that. Like
[00:46:10] if you knock porn in the head fully, you
[00:46:13] you get some really And this is why I
[00:46:15] This is this point about useless versus
[00:46:17] dangerous men,
[00:46:18] >> right? It's a really interesting uh
[00:46:20] balance between the two. Do you want
[00:46:22] useless or do you want dangerous men? Um
[00:46:25] it would look different. It would look
[00:46:26] incredibly different. Uh and we have a
[00:46:29] we're in a sort of luxurious position at
[00:46:31] the moment where we don't really need
[00:46:32] the usefulness of men all that much. Not
[00:46:36] on a ground floor level. And with the
[00:46:39] advent of AI and robotics, the potential
[00:46:41] for them to be uh even more displaced, I
[00:46:43] think, is going to increase. There's
[00:46:45] this interesting story around uh um sort
[00:46:47] of male sedation, but on the other side,
[00:46:49] so fatherlessness. So there's this
[00:46:51] really cool example used at uh Krueger
[00:46:55] National Park in South Africa. So
[00:46:58] there's a growing elephant population.
[00:46:59] It's too big and they need to get them
[00:47:02] out and transport them. There's a plan
[00:47:04] that gets devised to take elephants from
[00:47:07] one park to another. What they realized
[00:47:09] was in order to move them, they had to
[00:47:11] move them by helicopter. So, they had to
[00:47:13] strap these elephants. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:47:15] Yeah. Had to strap them into harnesses
[00:47:17] and then move them by helicopter to take
[00:47:19] them from one national park to another.
[00:47:21] But the harnesses weren't able to take
[00:47:22] the huge bulls. They could take the mums
[00:47:26] and they could take the juveniles, but
[00:47:27] they couldn't take the bulls. So, okay.
[00:47:29] Well, no worries. we'll leave the bulls
[00:47:30] there and we'll take the mums and we'll
[00:47:32] take the juveniles and we'll move them
[00:47:33] to this new park. So, they move them
[00:47:34] over to the new park and then about a
[00:47:38] few weeks after this move is done, they
[00:47:40] find dead white rhinos around the park.
[00:47:45] And first off, they thought it was
[00:47:46] poachers. They assumed that it was
[00:47:47] poachers that had killed them, but there
[00:47:48] was no gunshot wounds. There was like
[00:47:50] puncture wounds and trample wounds on
[00:47:52] these rhinos. Then they decided, well,
[00:47:55] we'll set up CCTV to work out what's
[00:47:57] going on. It turned out that the
[00:47:59] juvenile elephants were just banding
[00:48:02] together and going around and killing
[00:48:05] other animals. They attacked uh tourists
[00:48:10] in the jeeps and they also were causing
[00:48:13] all sorts of havoc and fighting each
[00:48:14] other as well. What had happened? It's
[00:48:17] this thing called musling. M u s t. They
[00:48:21] were in musts and this is um they're
[00:48:23] looking to mate and there weren't any
[00:48:26] women around that they could mate with.
[00:48:27] Now, this is typically
[00:48:30] tamped down by the bull males.
[00:48:33] >> Yeah. Dad's home.
[00:48:34] >> Dad's home.
[00:48:36] >> So, they worked bigger harnesses,
[00:48:38] brought the bull elephants over,
[00:48:40] immediately all of the antisocial
[00:48:42] behavior stopped,
[00:48:44] >> right? So, fatherlessness,
[00:48:46] like I had this I told you
[00:48:47] >> anyone who runs a family is quite
[00:48:48] familiar with this phenomenon.
[00:48:50] >> I told you before I had this
[00:48:51] conversation with uh Bernie Sanders and
[00:48:54] I brought up he's big into inequality.
[00:48:56] So my I grew up as working class as as
[00:48:58] is possible. I think that talking about
[00:49:01] inequality and talking about class
[00:49:03] problems is a really important issue.
[00:49:05] >> Couldn't agree more.
[00:49:06] >> Fatherlessness is the real inequality.
[00:49:08] >> Of course,
[00:49:09] >> boys who grow up apart from their
[00:49:10] biological father are two times more
[00:49:13] likely to end up in jail or prison by
[00:49:14] age 30. Fatherlessness is a better
[00:49:17] predictor
[00:49:19] of growing up in incarceration
[00:49:22] than being poor or their race.
[00:49:25] Young men are more likely to end up in
[00:49:28] jail or prison than they are to complete
[00:49:31] college if they grow up in any
[00:49:33] non-intact
[00:49:35] home.
[00:49:36] Uh, boys in fatherless homes are twice
[00:49:39] as likely to grow up with depression.
[00:49:41] Girls in fatherless homes are 10 times
[00:49:43] as likely to grow up with depression.
[00:49:45] So, a big question there is, is this
[00:49:46] generation really depressed or did they
[00:49:47] just grow up without dad? But the big
[00:49:50] point is there's been a massive increase
[00:49:52] in fatherlessness over the last 50
[00:49:53] years. and fatherlessness impacts boys
[00:49:56] more than it does girls. Impacts girls
[00:49:58] in some ways worse than boys, but
[00:49:59] overall girls are referred to as
[00:50:01] dandelions and boys are referred to as
[00:50:03] daisies. We would think that boys are
[00:50:04] psychologically more robust,
[00:50:06] >> but without dad, boys are daisies and
[00:50:09] girls are dandelions.
[00:50:10] >> They're so fragile. No, it's right.
[00:50:11] >> Uh so when you think about
[00:50:14] all of this together, like you know,
[00:50:16] we've scratched the surface. Education,
[00:50:19] employment, empathy,
[00:50:22] fatherlessness. Let's just take like
[00:50:24] those four changing dynamics that have
[00:50:26] occurred. Like you're really really
[00:50:28] going to struggle as a young guy trying
[00:50:31] to find your place in the world. Like
[00:50:33] well all of the previous routes to me
[00:50:35] finding a sense of purpose, those feel
[00:50:37] like they've been taken away from me.
[00:50:38] And maybe I did or didn't have dad
[00:50:40] around the home. Or maybe I even had a
[00:50:41] stepdad who'd sort of tried his best or
[00:50:43] whatever. But any non-intact family
[00:50:45] home, a guy is more likely to end up in
[00:50:48] jail or prison than to complete college.
[00:50:52] It's unbelievable.
[00:50:53] >> It's wild. It's wild. And
[00:50:56] >> but then if you think about why wouldn't
[00:50:57] that be true? I mean, the fundamentals
[00:50:59] are all that matter, right? So in a
[00:51:02] nation there, do you have enough food,
[00:51:03] water, and energy? And in a family, it's
[00:51:05] like, do you have both parents? Do they
[00:51:06] like each other? Like the everything
[00:51:07] emanates from the fundamentals, right?
[00:51:09] >> Mhm. Mhm.
[00:51:10] >> And only like over socialized dumb
[00:51:12] people that went to college miss that.
[00:51:13] Like me. I mean, it took me a while to
[00:51:15] figure that out, but like none of this
[00:51:17] matters at all. What did you study
[00:51:18] in college? No. Do your parents like
[00:51:20] each other?
[00:51:22] >> I mean,
[00:51:22] >> Arthur Brooks was on the show and he
[00:51:24] said, um, like what is the best way to
[00:51:27] raise your son? Love his mom.
[00:51:29] >> Of 100% true. That's the truest thing.
[00:51:34] >> Yeah. I don't agree with Arthur on some
[00:51:35] things, but he's he's smart. He's legit
[00:51:37] smart, I would say.
[00:51:38] >> I think he's great. I think he's
[00:51:39] >> Yeah, he's a nice man. But, uh, no, of
[00:51:41] course. That's right. If you want to
[00:51:42] have happy children, have a happy
[00:51:44] marriage. It's literally that simple.
[00:51:46] >> Yeah. spend way less time with your
[00:51:49] children and way more time with your
[00:51:50] wife and your kids will thank you.
[00:51:52] >> Is it is it what you tell your kids? I
[00:51:55] mean to say it's the guy who is
[00:51:56] unmarried and doesn't have kids yet but
[00:51:57] can't wait to start a family. Um is it
[00:52:01] what you tell your children or is it
[00:52:03] what you show your children?
[00:52:04] >> Yeah. Telling them has nothing to do
[00:52:06] with anything.
[00:52:07] >> They're like dogs. They don't hear you
[00:52:09] um at all. No,
[00:52:11] >> they will watch you and emulate
[00:52:12] >> 100%. And like dogs, they anticipate
[00:52:15] your next movement by your last
[00:52:16] movement. Like they are totally keyed in
[00:52:19] >> on action rather than words. Especially
[00:52:21] girls.
[00:52:22] >> They don't even listen to anything you
[00:52:24] say. They just watch you. And they know
[00:52:26] if you
[00:52:28] are a decent person by what you do. And
[00:52:30] men don't get that because men are so
[00:52:32] verbal and so committed to bullshitting
[00:52:34] their way through life. But women are
[00:52:36] unbullshitable. They know exactly who
[00:52:38] you are. Well, again, going back to what
[00:52:40] we were talking about before, the uh you
[00:52:42] know, razor edge detection that women
[00:52:45] have socially uh is a blessing and a
[00:52:48] curse, right? They're going to be able
[00:52:50] to see when uh somebody is potentially
[00:52:53] lying to them. I think women on average
[00:52:54] tend to be better lying detectors. They
[00:52:56] pay more attention to, you know, I mean,
[00:52:58] how many times have you walked into a
[00:52:59] party and your wife's been like, "Oh,
[00:53:01] such and such is not having a good time
[00:53:02] with their partner or whatever it might
[00:53:04] be." And you're like, "What do you
[00:53:05] mean?" Oh, did you not see the way that
[00:53:07] she looked at him when he did the
[00:53:08] whatever? And you're like, "Oh, you're
[00:53:10] like you've got witchy energy. You're
[00:53:13] like a clairvoyant like super."
[00:53:14] >> Because they're not listening to the
[00:53:15] words. They're just watching the
[00:53:17] reality. They don't they don't listen to
[00:53:19] anything.
[00:53:20] >> Guys don't guys don't see that in the
[00:53:22] same sort of a way
[00:53:22] >> because they're transfixed by language.
[00:53:24] It's why they write the books. It's why
[00:53:26] they're there no female philosophers.
[00:53:28] It's all men. It's just a different way
[00:53:29] of thinking. It's a different kind of
[00:53:31] intelligence. And and I think and there
[00:53:34] certainly benefits to being obsessed
[00:53:35] with words, but but there are problems
[00:53:38] with it, too. You miss a lot. And women,
[00:53:40] they just don't care what you say at
[00:53:41] all. They they just can see what the
[00:53:43] truth is. And they're so nice to men in
[00:53:47] general. A woman who loves you and is
[00:53:49] loyal to you will not
[00:53:52] reveal like your deepest weakness to
[00:53:54] your face. Like they're very nice about
[00:53:55] that. They could totally destroy you.
[00:53:58] >> They wash your underwear. They listen to
[00:54:00] you snore. Like they know what you're
[00:54:01] insecure about and they keep it all
[00:54:04] >> that beautiful.
[00:54:05] >> Oh, it's incredible. No, it's the great
[00:54:06] it's the greatest blessing. If you're
[00:54:08] just nice to them and
[00:54:10] >> pay attention and provide and protect
[00:54:12] like you get a lot in return.
[00:54:14] >> Women rule like women women are
[00:54:16] phenomenal compatriots to men and this
[00:54:19] like
[00:54:19] >> compatriots that's the right that's
[00:54:21] exactly it's a symbiosis they can't one
[00:54:23] cannot thrive without the other period
[00:54:25] as in nature. Look, the the the problem
[00:54:27] is I think objectively
[00:54:31] we have replaced the need for sort of
[00:54:35] family and camaraderie with a
[00:54:37] technologically advanced world. So you
[00:54:39] can make it to the end of your life
[00:54:42] having not had to have the camaraderie
[00:54:44] and you survived in a manner that you
[00:54:47] may not have been able to ancestrally.
[00:54:49] >> How is that working? Uh well there is a
[00:54:52] difference between objective outcomes
[00:54:54] and subjective outcomes right what is
[00:54:56] the end and what was the means of
[00:54:57] getting there like how enjoyable was the
[00:54:59] journey how fulfilled do you feel how
[00:55:00] happy were you how present were you what
[00:55:02] are the sort of memories that you have
[00:55:04] and I made it to the end of my life and
[00:55:07] you know I'm here uh that I don't I I
[00:55:13] think that we have traded what matters
[00:55:16] for something that can be advertised on
[00:55:18] a CV I think the clearest measure of it
[00:55:22] is the suicide rate. I mean, the worst
[00:55:24] kind of murder is self murder. What was
[00:55:26] the suicide rate in feudal England?
[00:55:29] Probably around zero. You know, lots of
[00:55:30] things you wouldn't like about it. No
[00:55:32] antibiotics, no freedom, you know, cold
[00:55:36] winters. But people didn't kill
[00:55:38] themselves. Just wasn't a thing. And now
[00:55:41] they kill themselves in huge numbers.
[00:55:43] Suicide is one of the leading causes of
[00:55:45] death in Canada right now. State
[00:55:46] sponsored suicide under the maids
[00:55:48] program. Is that the euthanasia thing?
[00:55:51] >> Yeah. The state killing its own
[00:55:53] citizens.
[00:55:54] >> And
[00:55:55] that's without precedent really. I don't
[00:55:58] think suicide's huge in like central
[00:55:59] Africa. It's not.
[00:56:01] >> Why do you think that's the case?
[00:56:03] >> Because for all the problems of Central
[00:56:04] Africa where I've been and there are a
[00:56:06] lot of problems like unimaginable
[00:56:08] problem including cannibalism and
[00:56:09] animistic religions and like all kinds
[00:56:11] of problems. But there's not like a
[00:56:14] crisis of meaning at all and there's not
[00:56:17] the kind of alienation you find in the
[00:56:19] west because
[00:56:20] you know loneliness is not subsidized
[00:56:23] there. Like you need the clan to survive
[00:56:26] period.
[00:56:28] >> And if you're without relationships then
[00:56:30] you're without hope. And any society
[00:56:32] that encourages people to live without
[00:56:33] relationships is a doomed and an
[00:56:36] illegitimate society in my opinion.
[00:56:38] Right.
[00:56:39] >> Yeah. I mean, the fact that you can
[00:56:44] survive doesn't necessarily mean that
[00:56:45] it's optimal at all, [laughter] you
[00:56:48] know, and that's ev that's evident.
[00:56:50] That's self-evident. Um, so can you just
[00:56:53] go back I'm sorry you've covered so much
[00:56:55] interesting ground. Can you go back and
[00:56:58] be a little more specific and linger a
[00:56:59] little longer on the factors that play
[00:57:03] that anesthetize or plate men in the
[00:57:06] face of these enormous frustrations and
[00:57:08] hurdles? They're not rising up because
[00:57:09] you said porn, video games.
[00:57:12] >> Porn, video games, and screens I think
[00:57:13] are the two the three.
[00:57:15] >> Can you explain the role of video games?
[00:57:17] >> Yeah. Well, I think look, video games
[00:57:20] allow you to have a simulacum of
[00:57:24] mastery, conquer, progress,
[00:57:27] uh, uh, group cohesion, coordination,
[00:57:31] um, between you and other real people,
[00:57:34] right? a lot of video games. I I would
[00:57:36] love to know this, but I'm going to
[00:57:37] guess that solo player offline stuff
[00:57:40] like Nintendo 64,
[00:57:42] like Sonic the Hedgehog style games from
[00:57:45] 20 years ago, will be much smaller than
[00:57:49] online cooperative games where you're
[00:57:51] playing with other real people across
[00:57:53] the internet. And I'm going to guess the
[00:57:55] reason for that is that the sense of
[00:57:56] camaraderie and group and and progress
[00:57:59] together is one of the most compelling
[00:58:00] parts of this because it's simulated
[00:58:03] warfare, right? Even in games that
[00:58:04] aren't about war, even if it's, you
[00:58:06] know, you trying to build a good roller
[00:58:09] coaster park, if you're doing it with
[00:58:11] other people collaboratively, that's
[00:58:12] going to feel much more compelling than
[00:58:14] if you're doing it on your own,
[00:58:15] typically. And that's a big part of what
[00:58:18] it is that guys want to do. They want to
[00:58:20] feel like they're making progress. They
[00:58:21] want to feel like they're having an
[00:58:22] impact. They want to feel like
[00:58:24] >> how sad
[00:58:25] because you're not making any progress.
[00:58:27] It's all fake. You're not building
[00:58:29] anything. Well, if you feel like you
[00:58:32] can't make an impact in the real world,
[00:58:35] I want to make an impact somewhere.
[00:58:38] I have to I have to I have to do
[00:58:41] something with my time. And this is
[00:58:43] comfortable and easy to me and
[00:58:45] compelling and in many ways better
[00:58:47] designed than the real world. Like the
[00:58:50] video game industry is worth more than
[00:58:52] movies, TV, and music combined. Video
[00:58:56] game designers understand human
[00:58:58] psychology better than anybody Oh, I get
[00:58:59] it. And I'm not judging it at all. I I
[00:59:01] said sad rather than contemptable
[00:59:03] because I mean I think it is sad because
[00:59:04] it's the illusion of creation, but
[00:59:08] there's I mean, would you get more
[00:59:11] satisfaction from 8 hours of video game
[00:59:14] playing or say re-bricking your
[00:59:17] driveway? [laughter]
[00:59:19] >> Well, unfortunately, I'm going to guess
[00:59:20] that a good group of guys would say,
[00:59:22] "Oh, no. Give me, you know, video
[00:59:25] games." Because that's what I know.
[00:59:27] because maybe dad wasn't in the house to
[00:59:29] be able to show me.
[00:59:30] >> It just siphons off the the one thing
[00:59:32] that men have and that we all need that
[00:59:35] the society needs, which is creative
[00:59:36] energy,
[00:59:37] >> useful,
[00:59:39] >> useful,
[00:59:40] >> useful.
[00:59:40] >> That's exactly right. And that's such a
[00:59:43] natural thing and such a great thing.
[00:59:45] It's essential. I mean, it's why we have
[00:59:47] civilization in the first place cuz men
[00:59:48] built it because they're driven to
[00:59:50] create stuff. And if all of that energy
[00:59:52] is siphoned off into something useless,
[00:59:57] >> well, this is also detected by women
[00:59:58] too, right? You I I I think that
[01:00:02] if you are a woman who is is a mum and
[01:00:05] has daughters or is is is looking for a
[01:00:08] partner or has a partner and wants the
[01:00:10] partner to be increasingly good for you,
[01:00:13] you should be as passionate, if not
[01:00:15] more, about this problem than we are.
[01:00:18] Well, of course,
[01:00:20] >> the very
[01:00:22] the very fact that men are being sedated
[01:00:24] out of being more useful is creating
[01:00:26] precisely the dir of eligible male
[01:00:28] partners that you are probably conscious
[01:00:30] of.
[01:00:31] >> It's driving women insane. I mean, I've
[01:00:33] never seen more crazy women in my life.
[01:00:34] I think of men as crazy and women as
[01:00:36] kind of stable and steady, and women in
[01:00:38] my life are, but you see women hitting
[01:00:41] each other in public, screaming,
[01:00:44] endorsing violence. Like, I don't even
[01:00:46] recognize that behavior. And I think
[01:00:48] it's it's so depressing to me and I
[01:00:52] think that's all a reaction. That's all
[01:00:54] frustration
[01:00:56] over this question. Men and women need
[01:00:57] each other. There are no men
[01:01:00] >> and because they're, you know, wasting
[01:01:02] their energies doing pointless things
[01:01:03] and it's driving women like bonkers.
[01:01:05] They seem crazy. Do they don't they seem
[01:01:07] a little crazy to you?
[01:01:08] >> I have not. And perhaps as you the women
[01:01:12] in your life, uh I I'm not around very
[01:01:15] many crazy women. I'm not a I'm never
[01:01:16] around crazy women. All the women in my
[01:01:18] life are like completely stable and they
[01:01:20] help keep the men calm and less crazy
[01:01:23] and that's I think the way it was
[01:01:24] designed to work and it's like the
[01:01:26] greatest blessing there is
[01:01:28] >> but outside of my life in our political
[01:01:31] sphere like the true extremists are
[01:01:33] women and I'm like wait what I wasn't
[01:01:35] prepared for that at all.
[01:01:37] >> I certainly know that
[01:01:38] >> female extremists huh
[01:01:39] >> I I certainly know that they're
[01:01:40] dissatisfied. I think that yeah uh that
[01:01:45] >> what does it mean for you to be uh
[01:01:50] economically independent
[01:01:52] but um
[01:01:55] romantically cut a drift at the same
[01:01:57] time?
[01:01:58] >> Yes.
[01:01:58] >> Like how does that feel? And in many
[01:02:00] ways because
[01:02:02] >> female freedom was something that women
[01:02:04] wanted for so long and I I think it is a
[01:02:06] strong point to make. Didn't they?
[01:02:08] Where's the evidence that they wanted
[01:02:10] that for so long?
[01:02:11] >> Because
[01:02:11] >> I don't think there's any.
[01:02:12] >> I think No, I to push back on that. I
[01:02:15] think that um
[01:02:17] there is certainly an argument to be
[01:02:18] made that the lower divorce rate and the
[01:02:22] uh
[01:02:24] highlevel stats of look at how many
[01:02:27] marriages stayed together were that
[01:02:29] women could not leave. They were
[01:02:31] financial prisoners inside of these
[01:02:32] marriages. And if they had a husband
[01:02:34] that was mistreating them, that was
[01:02:36] beating them, that was not caring for
[01:02:38] the children in the way that they should
[01:02:40] have done,
[01:02:41] >> where did the women go? They don't have
[01:02:43] >> Now it's just a boyfriend who's doing
[01:02:44] that,
[01:02:45] >> right? But I'm asking, where's the
[01:02:47] evidence? I don't believe it for a
[01:02:49] second. I was taught that my whole life
[01:02:50] that pre-liberation, preetty Fredane and
[01:02:54] Gloria Steinum, it was just a it was the
[01:02:56] Handmaid's Tale. It was just a
[01:02:57] hellscape.
[01:02:58] >> Forced pregnancies and servitude to the
[01:03:01] patriarchy and some guy in a wife beater
[01:03:04] beating his wife was just
[01:03:06] >> But there's no evidence of that at all.
[01:03:09] Like we have public opinion polling on
[01:03:11] this.
[01:03:13] >> Have you ever seen any that showed like
[01:03:15] I don't know even a large percentage of
[01:03:17] American women pre 1965 or like
[01:03:20] desperately unhappy?
[01:03:22] >> I've I've never looked at at that.
[01:03:24] >> Yeah, I have. It doesn't exist. That's
[01:03:25] all interesting.
[01:03:27] >> All propaganda. There were like a small
[01:03:29] subset of unhappy women. There's always
[01:03:32] a small subset of unhappy people,
[01:03:34] restless people who like decided to
[01:03:35] subvert the oldest institution in
[01:03:38] humanity, which is marriage.
[01:03:40] >> And they [clears throat] did and it made
[01:03:42] everybody crazy and much more unhappy.
[01:03:43] >> I I certainly don't think the uh
[01:03:46] dergation of family structure was great
[01:03:47] for women. Like it's not we can say we
[01:03:49] can obviously say that it's not been
[01:03:51] great for men, but you can see the
[01:03:53] beneficiaries of the last 50 years. Like
[01:03:55] no group has fallen f fallen further
[01:03:58] faster than men over the last 50 years.
[01:04:00] No group.
[01:04:01] >> Yeah.
[01:04:02] >> But a lot of the objective gains uh have
[01:04:05] been made. Look at how many more women
[01:04:07] are educated. Look at how many more more
[01:04:08] women are employed. You know, on the
[01:04:10] surface that looks and sounds fantastic
[01:04:13] and in many ways it is. And that's not
[01:04:15] something that I'm trying to roll back
[01:04:16] or I'm guessing that you're trying to
[01:04:17] roll back either. You're trying to say
[01:04:18] is
[01:04:20] can we have our cake and eat it too with
[01:04:23] regards to this? saying is these are
[01:04:25] really bad values. Like education for
[01:04:27] its own sake, financial achievement for
[01:04:30] its own sake, these are bad goals.
[01:04:34] >> These are not things that we should
[01:04:36] want. These are lies. That doesn't make
[01:04:38] you happy. There's no meaning in that.
[01:04:40] You get your degrees. Who cares?
[01:04:42] It's all stupid. What you should be
[01:04:44] trying to do is serve other people.
[01:04:47] Create new life. Serve that life, those
[01:04:50] children. Serve your community. live a
[01:04:53] life of meaning and dignity and decency.
[01:04:56] Like the whole thing is indecent. Like
[01:04:57] your life should be about making money.
[01:04:59] Says who? Who wrote these rules? They're
[01:05:01] gross. That's what I'm saying. And so I
[01:05:04] think the measurements themselves are
[01:05:05] absurd. Great point. So there are uh two
[01:05:09] types of metrics, hidden and observable
[01:05:12] metrics, right? Uh an observable metric
[01:05:14] would be the size of the house that you
[01:05:16] have, the car that you drive, the job
[01:05:18] title you have, uh what's your annual
[01:05:20] salary. Uh a hidden metric would be what
[01:05:24] is the texture of your mind like as you
[01:05:26] fall asleep at night. Uh how deep is
[01:05:28] your relationship with your friends
[01:05:29] around you? How much do you love your
[01:05:31] partner? How trusting and safe do you
[01:05:32] feel most of the time? And the problem
[01:05:35] is in the modern world we have traded
[01:05:37] hidden metrics for observable metrics.
[01:05:39] >> So an obvious one of these would be uh
[01:05:41] people will happily go for a longer
[01:05:44] commute in order to get a pay rise at
[01:05:46] work. So, one of the, it's so funny, one
[01:05:49] of the most tightly tied metrics that
[01:05:52] you can find is happiness and the length
[01:05:54] of your commute. The longer the commute,
[01:05:56] the more unhappy you are.
[01:05:57] >> Is that true? I completely believe that.
[01:05:59] >> Yeah. Uh, and that's been studied.
[01:06:00] >> Yeah. If you think about what it is that
[01:06:03] you're trading, it's not just, oh, I
[01:06:05] have to sit in the car longer. If you
[01:06:06] increase 45 minutes either direction,
[01:06:08] that's an hour and a half that you're
[01:06:09] not spending at home with your family or
[01:06:12] your friends or your partner or your
[01:06:14] kids. You're missing an hour and a half
[01:06:16] a day of the thing that you are supposed
[01:06:19] to be doing the work in order to be able
[01:06:21] to facilitate.
[01:06:22] >> That's exactly right. And the the fact
[01:06:24] that we have social media where people
[01:06:26] can compare the best of everybody else's
[01:06:28] lives with the worst of their own. Uh it
[01:06:30] causes people to optimize for observable
[01:06:33] metrics, not for hidden metrics
[01:06:34] [clears throat] because you can't flex
[01:06:36] your inner peace on Instagram. It's very
[01:06:40] difficult to do that. And uh yeah, we're
[01:06:42] playing in we're playing a game of
[01:06:44] currencies now. And the currencies I
[01:06:46] think are pointing in the wrong
[01:06:47] direction.
[01:06:48] >> I think you're exactly right. And I
[01:06:50] think this is all another species of
[01:06:51] scientism. The idea that the things that
[01:06:54] matter can be measured. This is all
[01:06:55] exacerbated by World War II where like
[01:06:57] you know most young men went off to war
[01:07:01] and were part of this war machine whose
[01:07:03] whole way of operating revolves around
[01:07:05] metrics. You measure everything, right?
[01:07:07] They come back 1946 and all of a sudden
[01:07:09] your whole society can't really be
[01:07:11] described outside of like measurements.
[01:07:14] Like we in America especially, this is
[01:07:16] especially true here.
[01:07:17] >> We don't use stone for weight anymore.
[01:07:20] Like we we are really committed to the
[01:07:22] idea that everything important can be
[01:07:24] measured. You
[01:07:24] >> still do use fluid ounces though which
[01:07:26] is a magic print. I'm like what
[01:07:29] is a fluid? No one knows what a fluid
[01:07:30] ounces.
[01:07:31] >> I love it.
[01:07:31] >> Fahrenheit. No, sorry. Sorry.
[01:07:34] >> I love it. It's the best thing about
[01:07:36] America. [laughter] By the way, Celsius
[01:07:38] is just a terrible measure. It's not
[01:07:39] precise enough.
[01:07:41] >> What? Because it's too big.
[01:07:42] >> Two degree. It's way too big. Because
[01:07:44] it's theoretical rather than real. This
[01:07:46] is the problem with the whole metric
[01:07:47] system. Okay,
[01:07:47] >> it's like a bunch of guys sitting around
[01:07:48] like well that's you know the current
[01:07:50] measure standard of weights and measures
[01:07:51] is illogical. We need to let's tie it to
[01:07:53] the boiling and freezing points of water
[01:07:56] and let's make it a 100 because that's
[01:07:58] like clearly a rational number and what
[01:08:01] you get is a system that makes it
[01:08:03] impossible to measure actual temperature
[01:08:05] changes. I know this because I sauna
[01:08:06] every day. So if you have a Celsius
[01:08:08] thermometer in your sauna
[01:08:10] >> Yes. Yes. Yes.
[01:08:11] >> You notice that like 2° difference in
[01:08:13] Celsius is like a completely different
[01:08:15] experience.
[01:08:16] >> Right. Yeah.
[01:08:17] >> So, it doesn't actually work.
[01:08:18] >> Let me on that one. Let me give you the
[01:08:19] biggest scop up in the world that
[01:08:20] America has done, which is convincing
[01:08:22] American citizens that the UK uses
[01:08:24] kilometers.
[01:08:26] >> No, we use miles. The UK uses miles.
[01:08:29] >> Really?
[01:08:29] >> Does not use kilometers.
[01:08:30] >> We don't drive there anyway cuz it's on
[01:08:31] the wrong side.
[01:08:32] >> Look. Well, at least it's in the right
[01:08:34] metric system. Okay. Do you know what
[01:08:35] [laughter] I mean? You know that. What
[01:08:36] the is a kilometer like that? No,
[01:08:39] it's miles. Okay. Every time I'm in
[01:08:41] Europe, which is a lot, a lot a lot, I
[01:08:45] have a day where I tell my favorite joke
[01:08:47] and not one person ever ever laughed.
[01:08:49] And you they where's the restaurant, you
[01:08:51] know, from here? And be like, how many
[01:08:54] um how many Celsius is it from here to
[01:08:57] there? And they'll be like looking at
[01:08:58] you like that. And I'll say, I'm sorry,
[01:09:00] I is that is that a kilogram from here?
[01:09:05] And
[01:09:06] >> no snickering, no laughter. They don't
[01:09:09] get it. They don't want to get it.
[01:09:11] They're very self-s serious about their
[01:09:13] little system of weights and measures.
[01:09:15] >> Go careful. Okay. On Celsius, it's still
[01:09:18] I'm slowly trying to move over to
[01:09:20] freedom units in in [laughter]
[01:09:22] everything everything else that I do. Um
[01:09:24] but no, this hidden and observable
[01:09:25] metrics thing I think is really really
[01:09:27] important. And um one of the things that
[01:09:29] I talk to the young guys about a lot is
[01:09:31] not sacrificing the thing that you want
[01:09:34] for the thing which is supposed to get
[01:09:35] it. So don't sacrifice your happiness in
[01:09:39] order to achieve success so that when
[01:09:41] you're sufficiently successful you can
[01:09:42] finally be happy.
[01:09:43] >> Right.
[01:09:44] >> Right. Don't sacrifice the thing you
[01:09:45] want for the thing which is supposed to
[01:09:47] get it. I think we see this everywhere
[01:09:49] that people assume after I have achieved
[01:09:51] enough x y and zed I will now allow
[01:09:53] myself to be happy.
[01:09:55] >> Right?
[01:09:56] >> But if in the process of trying to make
[01:09:58] yourself successful enough to become
[01:09:59] happy you make yourself miserable. like
[01:10:02] that is you sacrificing the thing you
[01:10:04] want, happiness for the thing which is
[01:10:05] supposed to get the thing you want which
[01:10:06] is success and I see this everywhere and
[01:10:09] I think that it is uh it is optimizing
[01:10:12] for the wrong outcome is [clears throat]
[01:10:14] optimizing for the wrong thing and uh
[01:10:16] selling people a lie in that regard.
[01:10:18] >> I of course I vehemently agree with
[01:10:20] that. I just I wonder is it I mean I
[01:10:24] think it's possible it's very hard to be
[01:10:26] happy without a mate. I do think that
[01:10:30] and I think it's hard to really
[01:10:31] understand meaning without children.
[01:10:33] Sorry. I think that
[01:10:34] >> what do you see as the fundamental role
[01:10:36] of a mate?
[01:10:37] >> Balance.
[01:10:39] Balance.
[01:10:41] When a man lives with a woman,
[01:10:44] no matter for how long and I can I can
[01:10:46] say that having done it for a long time,
[01:10:48] 35 years,
[01:10:50] you never really understand everything.
[01:10:53] There's a veil and it never really
[01:10:55] lifts. It's like you get a higher
[01:10:56] percentage than you did at the
[01:10:57] beginning, but there's always part of
[01:10:59] what she's saying that is opaque to you.
[01:11:01] Like what does that mean? And why is she
[01:11:03] saying you never really know because
[01:11:05] they're just so different. And that
[01:11:08] fact, which is obviously an irritant,
[01:11:10] but it's an irritant in the same way.
[01:11:11] [laughter]
[01:11:12] In the same way sand and oyster is an
[01:11:14] irritant. I mean, it creates something
[01:11:15] beautiful over time. It forces you out
[01:11:17] of yourself.
[01:11:18] >> That's funny.
[01:11:18] >> It forces you to think really carefully
[01:11:20] about this person. Like, what is this?
[01:11:22] you're trying to tell me something, but
[01:11:23] I'm not exactly sure what it is, and I'm
[01:11:25] trying my hardest. The process of trying
[01:11:27] hard
[01:11:29] makes you lesser about yourself. And the
[01:11:31] like maturity is, if you want to define
[01:11:33] maturity, maturity is the spectrum from
[01:11:37] birth to death, right? And in birth,
[01:11:40] there is nothing in your world
[01:11:42] disconnected from your own needs. It's
[01:11:43] all about you. I've got a dirty diaper.
[01:11:46] I'm hungry. I want someone to pay
[01:11:48] attention to me. And maturity is the
[01:11:50] process of letting go of all of that and
[01:11:52] realizing that other people's concerns
[01:11:55] are more important than yours.
[01:11:58] And nothing gets you there like marriage
[01:12:01] and children because you just have it
[01:12:02] will not be successful.
[01:12:04] >> You've got a bunch of girls as well,
[01:12:05] right?
[01:12:05] >> Uh yeah, I have three daughters and a
[01:12:07] son.
[01:12:07] >> Yeah.
[01:12:08] >> All totally unexpected. Didn't expect to
[01:12:10] have any girls. Didn't grow up with
[01:12:11] girls. No girls, no mom, no sisters. So
[01:12:15] no female dogs. So, I was just like,
[01:12:17] "What?
[01:12:17] >> What did you learn about girls from
[01:12:19] >> Oh my gosh, it was like the greatest
[01:12:20] thing ever." If you had asked me, well,
[01:12:22] the other thing you learn, I think, from
[01:12:23] marriage is that it's kind of not up to
[01:12:25] you. Like, you're not sort of the
[01:12:28] captain of your own vessel. Like, you do
[01:12:30] have to sort of accept things as they
[01:12:33] come and like, okay, what can we make of
[01:12:34] this?
[01:12:35] >> I never would have had a single daughter
[01:12:36] if it was up to me. I probably wouldn't
[01:12:38] have had children cuz they affect your
[01:12:39] sex life. And I was like highly focused
[01:12:41] on that. But of course, it was the
[01:12:44] things that happened against my will
[01:12:46] that were the best things and the most
[01:12:48] broadening things and the most
[01:12:50] interesting things by far. And having
[01:12:51] daughters was like at the very top of
[01:12:53] that list. And didn't have just one, I
[01:12:55] had three. And um it's just been an
[01:12:58] amazing
[01:12:58] >> so cool.
[01:12:59] >> Oh, it was the best. And it's why I'm
[01:13:02] really hate technology and everyone who
[01:13:05] promotes it because it gives people the
[01:13:07] illusion of control, which is like the
[01:13:09] biggest lie of all. It's the Tower of
[01:13:11] Babel lie. And if I had had control over
[01:13:16] the sex of my children or the nature of
[01:13:18] my children or I would have it up
[01:13:19] completely cuz I'm not God.
[01:13:22] >> And so there is something
[01:13:24] it takes the the unexpected beauty out
[01:13:27] of life anyway. So but the I guess the
[01:13:30] point is
[01:13:33] as you mature you become less about
[01:13:35] yourself. And it's absolutely impossible
[01:13:38] to live with a member of the opposite
[01:13:40] sex and be totally about yourself. It
[01:13:42] just doesn't work. You'll get divorced
[01:13:43] immediately. She'll hate you. Probably
[01:13:45] try and kill you. Actually, it just
[01:13:47] doesn't work. So, and if you like and
[01:13:50] sex is the glue that holds it all
[01:13:51] together. You want to sleep with her.
[01:13:52] That's why you that's why she's not your
[01:13:54] roommate, right? And so, that kind of
[01:13:57] like loosens you up for the real
[01:14:00] learning in life, which is stop focusing
[01:14:03] on yourself. It's not all about you.
[01:14:05] shut the up. And I'm from a culture
[01:14:09] that really pushed it's not about you.
[01:14:12] And that is the main and of course I
[01:14:15] still am utterly narcissistic and about
[01:14:17] myself anyway. It's like a daily
[01:14:18] struggle cuz that's just that's just who
[01:14:20] we are. But I grew up in a culture that
[01:14:23] did not accept that at all. And that was
[01:14:25] the main difference between the world
[01:14:26] that I grew up in and the world we
[01:14:27] currently live in. It's not all the
[01:14:29] other stuff. It's it's you're not
[01:14:31] allowed
[01:14:32] >> to talk about yourself. We don't
[01:14:34] compliment our children, not because we
[01:14:36] don't love them, but because we don't
[01:14:37] want to encourage narcissism in our
[01:14:38] children. We send them to boarding
[01:14:39] school at a young age. Why? Because
[01:14:41] they're going to have to learn to deal
[01:14:42] with other people. They're going to have
[01:14:43] to take gang showers with like other
[01:14:45] kids.
[01:14:45] >> I think this is what I was talking about
[01:14:46] with regards to my experience at
[01:14:48] university. That socialization, that
[01:14:50] rush of socialization, and maybe there's
[01:14:51] an argument to be made that I should
[01:14:52] have learned it before 18, but I didn't.
[01:14:54] And I get the sense that a bunch of
[01:14:56] other young people don't.
[01:14:57] >> But what is socialization? It's the
[01:15:00] forced realization that it's not all
[01:15:02] about you.
[01:15:02] >> Yeah. Compromise. Yeah. Accommodating
[01:15:04] other people.
[01:15:05] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How funny. How
[01:15:08] funny that uh
[01:15:12] one day you just get sick of yourself.
[01:15:14] You get sick of having to it it all
[01:15:17] being about you in some way.
[01:15:19] >> It's so boring.
[01:15:20] >> Yeah. I'm an only child, so for me it
[01:15:23] was, you know, that times times 10. Uh
[01:15:27] because there's no negotiating with
[01:15:28] other brothers or sisters. The first
[01:15:29] time I ever learned you had to knock on
[01:15:31] somebody's bedroom door before you went
[01:15:32] in was when I went to university cuz I'd
[01:15:34] never had to knock on anybody's bedroom
[01:15:35] door before. Mom and dad went to bed
[01:15:37] after me. They got it before me. Like I
[01:15:39] didn't have to knock it.
[01:15:39] >> Did they lock their door?
[01:15:41] >> The front door, but the bedroom door
[01:15:43] like I was never awake during the middle
[01:15:45] of the night. So like yeah, it was uh I
[01:15:48] don't know. There was just it was an
[01:15:50] interesting uh lesson in socialization.
[01:15:52] and the boarding school thing. I can see
[01:15:54] uh I I can see in that
[01:15:56] >> there there I could write a book about
[01:15:58] it, but there there are of course
[01:15:59] downsides to to every approach you have
[01:16:02] with children. But I I do think someone
[01:16:05] should say
[01:16:07] repeatedly every day to every human
[01:16:09] being, it's not about you. Stop talking
[01:16:11] about yourself. You're not that
[01:16:12] interesting. There have been billions
[01:16:14] before you. Billions will follow you.
[01:16:16] We're all kind of the same. Knock it
[01:16:17] off. that lack of sense of community
[01:16:20] that um nobody has my back. I can't
[01:16:23] trust anybody. I'm a a disembodied
[01:16:27] drone number inside this apartment in
[01:16:30] this big megalopouloolis gray city
[01:16:32] thing. I understand why this environment
[01:16:36] causes people to think and feel that
[01:16:39] way, both men and women, and perhaps
[01:16:41] even more so women to be honest, because
[01:16:43] this was something that they didn't have
[01:16:46] only until very recently. So the novelty
[01:16:48] of well this is something that men had
[01:16:51] for a long time, they had the
[01:16:53] employment, they had the education. The
[01:16:55] fact that the same way the playground
[01:16:57] mentality of like I don't want that toy
[01:16:58] unless somebody else has it type thing
[01:17:01] comes in and they go well I'm going to
[01:17:02] I'm going to get this thing. I'm going
[01:17:03] to have this thing and well I can't
[01:17:05] trust the people around me in the same
[01:17:07] sort of a way. I don't have the same
[01:17:08] communities and and sense of cohesion
[01:17:10] that I would have done previously
[01:17:12] either. I need to look after myself,
[01:17:14] which means that this brand new
[01:17:16] landscape that I can exist in or for
[01:17:18] men, I'm going to retreat into myself or
[01:17:20] perhaps even harm myself. And uh the
[01:17:23] thing that it ends
[01:17:24] >> that is the truest thing what you just
[01:17:26] said.
[01:17:26] >> Yeah. Yeah. I think um
[01:17:31] you could ask, well, what's the point?
[01:17:32] Like why do we need why do we need to
[01:17:34] have uh useful men uh if the welfare
[01:17:38] state and women socioeconomically
[01:17:40] outperforming men?
[01:17:42] What's the usefulness? Well, you'd say
[01:17:43] about raising boys and community uh
[01:17:46] inshments and happiness and fulfillment
[01:17:49] and camaraderie and all that sort of
[01:17:51] stuff. But I think that there's more
[01:17:53] like ground floor impact of this too.
[01:17:57] So, one of the criticisms is that uh
[01:18:00] almost all violence is committed by men.
[01:18:03] Men account for about 80% of violent
[01:18:06] crime
[01:18:07] >> at least. but they commit even more
[01:18:10] heroism.
[01:18:12] So, there's this award called the
[01:18:14] Cariegi Award, which is given to any
[01:18:18] person who risks their life for a
[01:18:20] stranger. It's been given out 10,000
[01:18:22] times. 93% of these awards have been
[01:18:25] given to men.
[01:18:27] >> Well, yeah.
[01:18:28] >> And you'll remember the Aurora, Colorado
[01:18:30] shooting, Dark Knight Rises theater.
[01:18:33] Young guy walks in, 24 years old, starts
[01:18:36] firing rounds into the theater. Three
[01:18:38] men, 24, 26, and 27, throw themselves on
[01:18:43] top of their girlfriends to protect
[01:18:45] them, and they get hit with bullets. All
[01:18:48] three men died. All three women
[01:18:50] survived.
[01:18:53] Is that the kind of masculinity and
[01:18:56] usefulness that we want to get rid of,
[01:18:58] or is that the kind that we want more
[01:19:00] of? And it seems to me that the only
[01:19:02] reason that we can entertain
[01:19:05] useless, sedated men as even an
[01:19:09] acceptable proposition is that there are
[01:19:13] no real threats in that sort of a way.
[01:19:15] >> Yeah. I think everyone's about to sober
[01:19:16] up real fast here because I think that
[01:19:20] period, unfortunately, I've enjoyed
[01:19:21] peace and prosperity, speaking for
[01:19:23] myself, but um cuz I never bought into
[01:19:26] any of this insanity about gender roles
[01:19:29] being meaningless. Gender roles are the
[01:19:30] heart of everything, the heart of
[01:19:31] nature. All animals have gender roles.
[01:19:34] Come on, stop it. Uh, so I never even
[01:19:36] for a second thought that was real.
[01:19:38] >> But I have enjoyed like living in a
[01:19:40] peaceful society where you can walk to
[01:19:42] the grocery store at night and not get
[01:19:43] worried. But that's clearly ending like
[01:19:46] now.
[01:19:47] >> So as it does end, as hard times return,
[01:19:51] which they are,
[01:19:53] >> it'll becomes more self-evident. The
[01:19:55] point of men now.
[01:19:57] >> Yeah. Well, I don't know. I'm I'm not
[01:19:59] particularly pressing when it comes to
[01:20:00] that. Certainly not in this country. But
[01:20:02] um I think you can just see people don't
[01:20:05] seem to be that happy. And
[01:20:08] >> no, but I mean if if goes sideways,
[01:20:11] >> you're not going to have a lot of women
[01:20:12] saying, you know, I just need my check
[01:20:15] from City Bank and my vibrator and I'm
[01:20:16] fine. Like that's just not going to be a
[01:20:19] thing anymore, right?
[01:20:20] >> That would be that would be very true.
[01:20:21] Yeah, that would be very true. And I
[01:20:23] mean, we're even going to see this as a
[01:20:26] direct effect of the fact that people
[01:20:27] aren't coupling up and having kids with
[01:20:29] birth rates,
[01:20:30] right? South Korea, for every hundred
[01:20:32] South Koreans, there are four great
[01:20:34] grandchildren.
[01:20:35] >> Yep.
[01:20:35] >> 96% decrease.
[01:20:37] >> You want to get really redpilled in a
[01:20:39] 100 years there will be only North
[01:20:40] Koreans.
[01:20:43] So at current rates of fertility. So
[01:20:47] that means the last Stalinist system
[01:20:51] in the world works better on a
[01:20:54] fundamental level, which is to say it
[01:20:56] reproduces itself more effectively
[01:20:58] than the most precise copy of American
[01:21:01] society ever created, which is South
[01:21:03] Korea, occupied by American troops for
[01:21:05] 75 years. It's it's an American clone. I
[01:21:08] don't know if you've been there. Great
[01:21:09] people. Awesome people. I love the South
[01:21:11] Koreans, but they're committing mass
[01:21:14] suicide. Meanwhile, their Stalinist
[01:21:18] sibling, which like the most repressive
[01:21:20] society ever, is re like what is that?
[01:21:23] What is that? I mean, I'm Look, I'm
[01:21:25] against North Korea. I love South Korea.
[01:21:27] I'm just being clear about my
[01:21:28] preferences. But is there a better
[01:21:31] measure of success than a birth rate? I
[01:21:34] don't really know that there is another
[01:21:35] measure of success other than a birth
[01:21:36] rate. What would it be? GDP.
[01:21:40] >> Yeah. Well, if you can increase GDP,
[01:21:43] which we have, but decrease the birth
[01:21:45] rate, you have perhaps traded the thing
[01:21:47] that you want for the thing that's
[01:21:48] supposed to get it.
[01:21:50] >> You think [laughter]
[01:21:52] like exactly and other people are just
[01:21:54] going to move in and take what you got,
[01:21:56] which is also happening. So, it's all
[01:21:58] kind of predictable.
[01:21:59] >> Well, again, I you know, I brought this
[01:22:00] up to to Bernie when I had that
[01:22:02] conversation with him and I said, uh,
[01:22:04] how concerned are you about birth rates?
[01:22:05] And he said, yeah, I am. I'm okay that
[01:22:08] is that is progress to hear from Bernie
[01:22:10] Sanders that he's concerned about birth
[01:22:12] rates. I'm like okay like we're we're
[01:22:13] this is coming into contact with real
[01:22:15] reality here. Um but yeah, if you have
[01:22:18] an inverted demographic shape with fewer
[01:22:21] young people than you do old people, uh
[01:22:24] the GDP does not look very good. Like
[01:22:26] you don't have the economic engine to be
[01:22:28] able to fund the care for an ever aging
[01:22:31] population that requires ever more
[01:22:33] healthare because people are living
[01:22:34] longer. But who even cares about all
[01:22:36] that stuff? I mean, I I would rather eat
[01:22:39] grl three meals a day and never go to
[01:22:41] the doctor again than not have kids.
[01:22:44] >> I mean, none of that stuff ma health
[01:22:45] care. Like, what? Who cares?
[01:22:47] >> My point being that if you do have fewer
[01:22:50] children than you do older people,
[01:22:51] >> I get it. I get it. But that's an
[01:22:52] economic argument. But there's a deeper
[01:22:54] argument to be made, which is if society
[01:22:56] isn't reproducing,
[01:22:58] in what sense is it successful?
[01:23:00] >> Well, that's a great point. I mean, I'm
[01:23:01] I'm speaking in the language of people
[01:23:03] who don't who need to be convinced that
[01:23:05] children and that people have economic
[01:23:08] utility like that there's some
[01:23:09] materialist
[01:23:10] >> justification. I'm just saying I think
[01:23:12] that's a monstrous worldview that we've
[01:23:14] all unconsciously embibed and accepted
[01:23:17] and I think that we should reject it.
[01:23:19] >> Well, I mean beyond the fact that to
[01:23:21] pretty much every single parent that you
[01:23:23] will ever speak to, their children are
[01:23:24] the most important thing that they've
[01:23:25] ever done in their lives. It's made all
[01:23:27] of their accomplishments in their career
[01:23:29] and academia and status and money feel
[01:23:33] shallow and juvenile and insignificant
[01:23:35] and flimsy in comparison. This sort of
[01:23:38] odd soopscistic narcissistic horrendous
[01:23:42] idea. My vacation [laughter]
[01:23:45] or my vacation. Who cares?
[01:23:48] >> Yeah,
[01:23:48] >> I've taken some I guess decent
[01:23:50] vacations. I never think about it. It
[01:23:52] doesn't mean anything.
[01:23:53] >> All that matters is your children. But
[01:23:55] you did mention that before you had
[01:23:56] kids,
[01:23:58] that perspective of being able to see
[01:24:00] what it would be like to have them, you
[01:24:02] were able to observe the costs and not
[01:24:05] so easily make no sense. It's, you know,
[01:24:07] having kids is one of those things that
[01:24:08] it's it's impossible to, at least for a
[01:24:11] man, or at least for me, I'll just speak
[01:24:12] for myself. I couldn't understand it at
[01:24:15] all. And I was weighing like the
[01:24:17] obligations of having children versus
[01:24:19] the pure animal joy of lying in bed with
[01:24:22] my wife on Saturday morning, reading the
[01:24:24] New York Times naked, eating French
[01:24:26] toast. Like that's like the highest
[01:24:27] level. Um
[01:24:29] >> you [clears throat] know what I mean?
[01:24:30] >> And I was thinking, well, there's going
[01:24:31] to be a lot less of that
[01:24:33] >> if we've got pups. And I was like, I
[01:24:35] don't I don't know if that's worth it.
[01:24:36] >> And then you have kids and you're just
[01:24:38] like, who was that who had a a thought
[01:24:41] that stupid? And even from a selfish
[01:24:44] perspective, It's not even like
[01:24:46] altruistic. It's just like it's so much
[01:24:48] more fun to have kids than it is to lie
[01:24:50] in bed reading the New York Times, which
[01:24:51] is very fun by the way.
[01:24:53] >> Guess the New York Times doesn't exist
[01:24:54] any does it? I don't know if they still
[01:24:56] have that, but it was a paper here ago.
[01:24:59] Whatever.
[01:25:00] >> Is there a way that you think you can
[01:25:02] convince people who haven't experienced
[01:25:04] it of insights like that?
[01:25:07] >> Your materialism is absurd. You're all
[01:25:09] going to die. We're all going to die.
[01:25:11] It's the only thing that we have in
[01:25:12] common is our common impending death.
[01:25:16] And let's just start there. Let's just
[01:25:17] start with the facts we know. You're
[01:25:18] going to die. That's the only thing we
[01:25:20] know actually. So with that in mind,
[01:25:22] everpresent in mind, what's worth doing?
[01:25:27] And um what could possibly have greater
[01:25:31] meaning and value than creating life?
[01:25:35] Nothing. So just like conceptually
[01:25:37] that's just obvious. Second, all of this
[01:25:40] artifice, this created stuff around us
[01:25:42] is fake. It's all going away. It's all
[01:25:44] going to rot and disappear and will be
[01:25:45] remembered by nobody. So like the
[01:25:48] pursuit of material
[01:25:52] accumulation is just sisophian. Like
[01:25:55] you're never going to get the rock to
[01:25:56] the top of the hill. It just doesn't
[01:25:57] even matter actually.
[01:25:59] >> So don't even try. Do something
[01:26:00] worthwhile. And having kids is like the
[01:26:03] one thing that every person or most
[01:26:05] people can feasibly pull off that's
[01:26:09] transcendent.
[01:26:10] It's profound. It literally transcends
[01:26:12] your life. It's bigger than you. And
[01:26:14] everybody inside has this desire to
[01:26:17] leave a mark to create something bigger
[01:26:18] than me.
[01:26:19] >> And that's the only thing you can do.
[01:26:21] [snorts]
[01:26:23] And all of us from Bill Gates on down,
[01:26:25] doesn't matter how rich you are, the
[01:26:27] only thing you can do that's
[01:26:29] transcendent is have children. And so
[01:26:31] why wouldn't you want that? And and
[01:26:32] second, I would say anyone who gets in
[01:26:34] the way of that is your blood enemy.
[01:26:36] He's not like a misguided person. He's
[01:26:38] not anyone who's offering free
[01:26:39] vasctomies outside of political
[01:26:41] convention is your blood enemy. He's
[01:26:43] trying to destroy your lineage, your
[01:26:46] DNA. He is a lot scarier than the Mongol
[01:26:49] horde sweeping across the step. At least
[01:26:51] they created life as they destroyed it.
[01:26:54] >> These are just destroyers. They're
[01:26:55] anti-human. They're anti-life.
[01:26:58] And I I would take it with deadly
[01:27:00] seriousness. It's like not a not a
[01:27:01] joke, man.
[01:27:03] >> They're trying to prevent you from
[01:27:03] having kids or grandkids, even in subtle
[01:27:05] ways.
[01:27:07] They are your enemies.
[01:27:08] >> Mhm.
[01:27:09] >> That's how I feel. I'm a very primitive
[01:27:11] person. Have always been.
[01:27:12] >> And I and that's worked for me.
[01:27:15] >> How would you have convinced yourself
[01:27:17] prekids that that was the actual
[01:27:19] outcome?
[01:27:20] >> I just went on the normal path. I got
[01:27:22] like obsessed with a girl and
[01:27:25] you know want to possess and sniff her
[01:27:28] just like you know all young men just
[01:27:30] totally luckily I picked a really
[01:27:32] virtuous hilarious smart person I might
[01:27:36] have made the wrong choice you know
[01:27:38] thank god I made the right choice but
[01:27:40] but I you know men are motivated by the
[01:27:41] sex drive like that's the primary drive
[01:27:43] in in young men that's why I hate to see
[01:27:45] it subverted into useless like porn
[01:27:48] I just hate that like there's a reason
[01:27:49] you feel that way you know the desire to
[01:27:52] impregnate every woman on the planet and
[01:27:54] that needs to be contained and like made
[01:27:56] useful of course just impregnate one but
[01:28:00] that desire is your life force that's
[01:28:02] your life force don't waste it alone
[01:28:06] like what
[01:28:07] >> yeah I had a an interesting conversation
[01:28:10] about the advent of AI girlfriends I
[01:28:12] know that people are concerned about
[01:28:13] this
[01:28:14] >> so AI girlfriends
[01:28:16] >> AI girlfriend I'm going to state my bias
[01:28:18] then I'm going to let I'm going to shut
[01:28:19] up for once and let you talk AI
[01:28:21] girlfriends seem like if there was ever
[01:28:24] like the apocalypse, people imagine the
[01:28:26] apocalypse as a nuclear exchange.
[01:28:29] >> I think of the apocalypse as AI
[01:28:31] girlfriends.
[01:28:31] >> Okay. I'm not going to make a bull case
[01:28:34] defending the robo So, you don't
[01:28:36] need
[01:28:37] >> you don't need to you don't need to
[01:28:39] worry about that. The it's silver
[01:28:41] linings around why it might not be quite
[01:28:42] as bad as we fear. First one, uh, one of
[01:28:45] the primary reasons that men like having
[01:28:50] women is that it is implicit that the
[01:28:54] man has been chosen. Right. From all of
[01:28:56] the suitors that this woman could have
[01:28:58] chosen from,
[01:28:59] >> she chose me.
[01:29:01] >> Exactly.
[01:29:01] >> Prestige, status, pre-selection. Uh, the
[01:29:05] reason that I think there is an upper
[01:29:07] bound or a ceiling on how alluring AI
[01:29:09] girlfriends are going to be is that
[01:29:12] there is no status associated with being
[01:29:14] chosen. It's the same reason that a man
[01:29:15] doesn't flex how many porn subscriptions
[01:29:17] or only fans models he subscribes to
[01:29:20] because any guy with the price of a
[01:29:21] cheeseburger spare per month can do
[01:29:23] that. Like there's no selection. There's
[01:29:25] no prestige associated because anybody
[01:29:28] can get it, right? So I think that the
[01:29:30] AI girlfriends, at least in terms of how
[01:29:32] compelling they are, there may be a
[01:29:34] ceiling that isn't fully accounted for.
[01:29:37] Compelling, freely available, the video
[01:29:39] games of sex, all the rest of the stuff.
[01:29:40] Yep. Things to be concerned about. But
[01:29:42] the fact that there is no uh limitation,
[01:29:45] there is no constraint of supply, which
[01:29:47] means there is no selection, I think
[01:29:50] will limit how much pleasure men can
[01:29:53] take uh from that. So that's at least
[01:29:55] one
[01:29:58] slight
[01:30:00] uh
[01:30:02] uh white pill that people could take
[01:30:04] with regards to that. I see a different
[01:30:06] I hope you're I mean of course I hope
[01:30:08] you're right. I think that it's actually
[01:30:12] meeting a need
[01:30:14] in a in a fall in an ursat's way. Okay.
[01:30:17] So if you talk to any prostitute about
[01:30:19] what women men actually want they want
[01:30:21] sex
[01:30:22] >> they want to talk a lot. They want
[01:30:24] someone to listen to them. Men have a
[01:30:26] great need to talk to women
[01:30:28] >> and to be listened to and admired and
[01:30:31] patiently heard. And the AI girlfriend,
[01:30:36] while she can't perform sexual services
[01:30:38] just yet, can definitely sit there and
[01:30:41] listen to men talk about themselves.
[01:30:42] >> Yeah.
[01:30:43] >> And that is something that men deeply
[01:30:45] deeply want. Now, the problem is it's
[01:30:48] not actually talking to somebody. It's
[01:30:50] talking to a a data storage facility in
[01:30:52] Arizona. It's it's not real.
[01:30:55] >> Understood. Yeah, that's an interesting
[01:30:57] one. Well, I mean, we that's certainly
[01:30:59] one thing that in the male sedation
[01:31:01] hypothesis hasn't been accounted for
[01:31:02] yet, which is uh emotional resonance.
[01:31:05] >> Yeah.
[01:31:06] >> Um and perhaps this will be an addition
[01:31:08] on that side of the ledger as opposed to
[01:31:11] one that actually compels men to go out.
[01:31:12] But the other one the the other part
[01:31:14] that uh me and a friend William Costello
[01:31:17] thought about was the potential for uh
[01:31:20] guys to practice interacting with women.
[01:31:23] So one of the problems that you have
[01:31:25] many men have approach anxiety. It's
[01:31:27] like to the women out there approach
[01:31:30] approaching a woman is tantamount to
[01:31:32] life and death. It's mortally uh
[01:31:35] uncomfortable to men because if I'm
[01:31:37] rejected that's the end of my lineage.
[01:31:39] It's scary and I can't even describe why
[01:31:41] and I'm in fear and I get over it and I
[01:31:43] did it and I talk to her. Like that is
[01:31:46] uh something that many men have issues
[01:31:48] in terms of doing. Going up and talking
[01:31:49] to the girl is like a you know it's a a
[01:31:51] big hurdle for them to get over and when
[01:31:52] they do it they feel proud in
[01:31:53] themselves. The problem is that you
[01:31:55] can't practice that in private. There is
[01:31:57] no such thing as a training ground for
[01:32:00] doing that. The only place that you can
[01:32:01] actually do it is by going to go and do
[01:32:03] it in public. You can only practice in
[01:32:05] public, right? As opposed to practicing
[01:32:07] in private. Uh we're in the middle of
[01:32:09] the World Series at the moment. Show
[01:32:10] Otani hasn't only ever thrown pitches in
[01:32:14] a game scenario. He's been able to go
[01:32:15] and practice them and then put them out
[01:32:17] into the field of play. The same thing
[01:32:18] isn't true for men approaching women. I
[01:32:21] think that potentially you could have a
[01:32:23] world in which a virtual reality headset
[01:32:26] is able to accurately model a scenario
[01:32:30] of you being in a bar talking to a woman
[01:32:32] and it can detect intonation and pace of
[01:32:34] speech and response and should you touch
[01:32:36] her on the leg now or not? and the
[01:32:38] possibility. This is an artificial
[01:32:39] solution to an artificial problem. I am
[01:32:41] aware of that. But in order to be able
[01:32:43] to fix guys who haven't spent much time
[01:32:45] around women, don't have that um base
[01:32:49] that they might have grown up with
[01:32:50] understanding how to properly interact
[01:32:51] with women. I think that there is a
[01:32:54] potential to gify becoming better
[01:32:57] communicators with women in a sandbox
[01:32:59] that doesn't have the potential for
[01:33:00] rejection or for an accusation that you
[01:33:03] pushed too hard or were coercive or did
[01:33:05] something that was unspeakable or
[01:33:06] horrible or whatever it might be. I
[01:33:08] think that that might actually allow men
[01:33:10] to feel more comfortable and go out into
[01:33:12] the real world and be better with women
[01:33:14] as opposed to worse.
[01:33:15] >> It makes sense. I'm just skeptical that
[01:33:17] any machine could approach even a
[01:33:18] supercomput could approach the
[01:33:20] complexity of an actual woman. Yeah, you
[01:33:22] know,
[01:33:22] >> and I think the no threat of rejection
[01:33:26] kind of defeats the purpose because
[01:33:29] that's what proving your manhood is is
[01:33:33] going through
[01:33:34] >> on the stadium floor.
[01:33:35] >> Exactly.
[01:33:36] >> That's the whole point. And it's a test
[01:33:37] that they're administering to you. Are
[01:33:40] you man enough
[01:33:41] >> to face my potential rejection? In fact,
[01:33:43] sometimes my rejection. Women very often
[01:33:46] offer up rejection in order to test you.
[01:33:48] >> The test
[01:33:49] >> 100%.
[01:33:50] >> Yeah. And so like can a machine do that?
[01:33:53] They're the stakes are too low.
[01:33:54] >> Yeah, that's true. That's true.
[01:33:56] >> Now if if if the machine was doing it in
[01:33:59] the presence of a bunch of other
[01:34:00] machines, there would be a whole crowd
[01:34:01] of AI ladies standing there [laughter]
[01:34:03] like mocking your dick size as you're
[01:34:05] doing it, then
[01:34:06] >> yeah,
[01:34:07] >> maybe that would be a realistic
[01:34:08] >> Okay. Yeah. No, I look I'm I'm
[01:34:10] desperately trying to cling to
[01:34:12] [laughter] some sort of like
[01:34:13] little silver lining. Well, remember
[01:34:14] when they told us that that porn was
[01:34:17] actually a good thing cuz it was like a
[01:34:20] healthy outlet and we'd have fewer sex
[01:34:21] crimes and people's sex lives would
[01:34:23] become more normal and healthy once they
[01:34:26] had porn. [laughter]
[01:34:28] >> I remember all this and and I hate to
[01:34:30] admit it, but it was only the radical
[01:34:32] like truly crazy lesbian feminists like
[01:34:34] Andrea Dwarkin who were against porn at
[01:34:36] the time.
[01:34:37] >> And I remember thinking,
[01:34:40] you know, uptight She was 100%
[01:34:42] right, by the way. I was wrong, but
[01:34:44] whatever.
[01:34:45] >> Well, we're in an interesting world at
[01:34:47] the moment when it comes to sort of
[01:34:48] approach anxiety stuff for guys because
[01:34:50] postme too, uh, a lot of men really took
[01:34:54] to heart the message, do not be pushy
[01:34:57] with women. Do not be pushy with women.
[01:34:59] The problem is that when you tell men
[01:35:01] don't be pushy with women, the guys who
[01:35:04] really need to feel a little bit more
[01:35:06] confident around women take that to
[01:35:08] heart and the guys that were blowing
[01:35:10] through boundaries already just
[01:35:11] disregarded. You have advice
[01:35:12] hyperresponders, right? You have the
[01:35:14] people whose fears are confirmed by
[01:35:17] headlines and worries, and they're the
[01:35:20] ones who probably could have done with,
[01:35:21] "No, dude, you you can go and say hello
[01:35:23] to her. Like, she'd really love to hear
[01:35:24] from you." But he's heard, "Do not be
[01:35:27] pushy with women." And thought, "I I
[01:35:28] knew I knew I was too much. I knew that
[01:35:30] women didn't want to hear from me."
[01:35:32] Meanwhile, the guys who were coercive,
[01:35:34] who were blowing through boundaries
[01:35:35] already, they disregard the the the
[01:35:37] warnings and the concern. So, I think
[01:35:39] we've we've ended up um the the goal of
[01:35:43] me too from a a relational standpoint
[01:35:45] and I do think it was important to call
[01:35:47] powerful men to account for using
[01:35:50] position and coerciveness and incentive
[01:35:52] in a way that was not virtuous in order
[01:35:55] to get sexual access.
[01:35:56] >> Oh, I agree. I agree completely. The
[01:35:58] goal of me too was to sanitize the toxic
[01:36:03] elements of male behavior and instead it
[01:36:07] ended up sterilizing most of them.
[01:36:09] >> And what did it do to women? I mean, is
[01:36:10] there no woman wants to be treated in a
[01:36:13] way that's vulgar or cruel
[01:36:16] >> um or dehumanizing? Of course, those are
[01:36:18] just
[01:36:19] >> that's just the human, you know, no one
[01:36:21] wants that.
[01:36:22] >> But is there any evidence that women
[01:36:23] didn't want men to be aggressive? I
[01:36:25] noticed there's been an enormous rise in
[01:36:27] nor I hear about it all the time in
[01:36:29] women asking to be choked during sex.
[01:36:33] >> I always talk to people about their sex
[01:36:34] lives. I'm interested in the topic. I
[01:36:36] think it reveals a lot about people.
[01:36:38] >> I think it's the most human thing there
[01:36:39] is. I'm not embarrassed at all. I've
[01:36:41] never heard anything like that until
[01:36:43] about 10 years ago. This girl wants me
[01:36:45] to choke her. I was like kind of
[01:36:47] horrifi. I don't see any connection
[01:36:48] between sex and violence. I'm just not
[01:36:49] into it. But like what is that? And it's
[01:36:54] very common. I'm not going to embarrass
[01:36:56] you by asking you if you are aware of
[01:36:57] that, but I know you are aware of that
[01:36:58] because every man is aware of that. What
[01:37:00] the is that? Like that's not
[01:37:02] healthy at all. And that seems to me to
[01:37:05] be I'm just guessing. I have no personal
[01:37:07] experience with it, but that seems to me
[01:37:08] to be an expression of a longing for
[01:37:13] male aggression that's gone in an
[01:37:14] unhealthy direction. Or did you read,
[01:37:17] you know, the the famous pornographic
[01:37:19] novel for women? Do you remember this?
[01:37:21] >> Fifty Shades of Gray. Did you read it?
[01:37:23] >> No.
[01:37:23] >> Well, I read it because I'm interested
[01:37:24] in women.
[01:37:25] >> Okay.
[01:37:25] >> I read it on
[01:37:26] >> That's a great disclaimer so that you
[01:37:27] can justify reading 50 Shades.
[01:37:29] >> Dude, it was the least erotic thing I've
[01:37:30] ever read in my life. I read it on a
[01:37:32] flight to LA. I was embarrassed to read
[01:37:33] it, but I was like, I'm interested in
[01:37:34] women. I want to know how they think.
[01:37:35] >> Not even a Twitch.
[01:37:37] >> Literally, I took a celibacy pledge by
[01:37:40] the time we got to LAX. [laughter]
[01:37:42] I found it so repulsive and weird.
[01:37:45] >> And it just shows that men and women are
[01:37:46] so different that things that turn them
[01:37:47] on are different. It was all about
[01:37:50] control and humiliation,
[01:37:52] >> dude. So,
[01:37:53] >> 100%. And I'm hearing all these women
[01:37:55] like, "Oh my gosh, I I had to I mean,
[01:37:58] whatever." Women were really in fuego
[01:38:01] about this book.
[01:38:02] >> And as a man, you read it, you're like,
[01:38:05] >> honestly, I've been to church services
[01:38:07] that are more erotic than this. This is
[01:38:09] actively
[01:38:11] >> okay. So I I have some I have some
[01:38:13] firsthand examp experience of this. I
[01:38:15] was the uh cover of a bunch of dark
[01:38:17] romance novels in my 20ies.
[01:38:18] >> Sorry.
[01:38:19] >> The I was the cover model of some dark
[01:38:22] romance novels in my 20ies. You do not
[01:38:24] need to Google them.
[01:38:25] >> You were the Fabio of the UK.
[01:38:26] >> Uh yeah, Dorian Gay. Dor Dorian Gray but
[01:38:29] with a British accent. Um
[01:38:31] >> actually,
[01:38:32] >> yeah, I did I did every
[01:38:33] >> Why did my producers tell me this? Let
[01:38:35] me check the booking sheet here. I did
[01:38:36] every red flag that your future
[01:38:38] son-in-law should not have. Male model,
[01:38:40] DJ, nightclub promoter. Uh, all of the
[01:38:44] red flags. Um, my point is I was a part
[01:38:47] of this this in very tangentially,
[01:38:49] right? You you do modeling. Sometimes a
[01:38:50] photo gets taken, an author says, "Oh,
[01:38:52] that's great. That can be like the muse
[01:38:54] idea for the front cover of this book.
[01:38:55] Would I be able to buy it?" And I'm 20.
[01:38:56] I'm like, "Yeah, sure. You pay a,000
[01:38:58] bucks and get my photo. That's great.
[01:38:59] I'm on the cover of a book. Like, isn't
[01:39:01] that great?" A little bit darker and
[01:39:03] more runchy than I might have
[01:39:05] anticipated. My mom when she found out
[01:39:07] that her son was on the cover of a book
[01:39:08] said, "That would be lovely. I'd love to
[01:39:10] read it." And I'm like, "You this isn't
[01:39:12] Harry Potter. Uh, you're not reading
[01:39:14] this book." Anyway, my point being I've
[01:39:17] been tangential to that industry in the
[01:39:19] past. What was interesting was the
[01:39:22] timing of Fifty Shades coming out and
[01:39:24] the sort of archetypes that you saw
[01:39:25] within the dark romance genre. very much
[01:39:28] typically masculine man. Heavy brow, big
[01:39:31] hands, lumberjack, plaid shirt, man
[01:39:34] stuff, big chest, muscular, uh in a
[01:39:36] position of prestige, typically
[01:39:38] dominant, typically wealthy,
[01:39:41] uh not succumbing to uh or or um just
[01:39:46] not particularly of the ilk that the
[01:39:49] modern world was telling men that they
[01:39:50] should be more of, especially postme
[01:39:52] too. And this is
[01:39:55] an uncomfortable circle to square if you
[01:39:57] want to try and marry these two worlds
[01:39:59] together. Right? So what they did was
[01:40:01] they tried to make romance novels more
[01:40:05] in keeping with the sort of archetype
[01:40:08] that modern men uh were perhaps supposed
[01:40:10] to be a more agreeable, softer sort of
[01:40:12] man. And these are referred to as
[01:40:13] cinnamon roll husbands or golden
[01:40:15] retriever husbands. And they wrote
[01:40:18] romance novels about this story arc.
[01:40:21] Right? This was the kind of archetype
[01:40:23] that was going on. Shock, horror, they
[01:40:25] did not sell, right? Women were not
[01:40:28] buying the golden retriever husband,
[01:40:31] cinnamon roll husband story arc. They
[01:40:34] wanted the Dorian gay archetype.
[01:40:37] How shocking is that?
[01:40:39] >> Did you read any of the books?
[01:40:40] >> No.
[01:40:42] >> I You should go back and read your own
[01:40:44] books. Um,
[01:40:45] >> and I bet you would find them not only
[01:40:48] nonerotic, but like anti-erotic. Like
[01:40:51] these are your fantasies. Really?
[01:40:53] >> What are the
[01:40:54] >> I think every man thinks that female
[01:40:56] sexual fantasies are like pillow fights
[01:40:58] in the sority house,
[01:40:59] >> right?
[01:41:00] >> Those are male sexual fantasies. Female
[01:41:02] sexual fantasies tend to be much more
[01:41:04] about power than men's sexual fantasies,
[01:41:07] I have noticed. And
[01:41:08] >> presumably an imbalance of power.
[01:41:11] >> Yeah. where they're on the, you know, on
[01:41:13] the weaker side and and they're, you
[01:41:16] know, some of them are not. I mean, no
[01:41:18] one ever wants to be honest about
[01:41:19] anything. Basically, lying just kind of
[01:41:21] dominates every public conversation, but
[01:41:22] and I'm not attacking anybody. I've just
[01:41:24] noticed this cuz I'm interested. And no,
[01:41:27] they're
[01:41:28] they're all and I don't think women want
[01:41:30] to be humanized or ignored or treated
[01:41:32] like children. I I don't think that. But
[01:41:36] but the kind of novels that sell sex
[01:41:38] novels that sell to women are not
[01:41:42] sexually arousing to men at all, I have
[01:41:44] found.
[01:41:44] >> And again, they're all about being
[01:41:47] dominated. Like that's what it is.
[01:41:49] >> One caveat to put in there is
[01:41:51] >> I I'm really bothered by it. I just want
[01:41:52] to be totally clear. I don't like that.
[01:41:54] I I don't like all the weird power
[01:41:56] dynamic stuff,
[01:41:57] >> but whatever.
[01:41:58] >> They like it. And so to tell me that the
[01:42:03] Me Too movement is about making men less
[01:42:06] aggressive sexually because women hate
[01:42:08] male sexual aggression, you're just
[01:42:10] lying. That's just not true.
[01:42:12] >> Do you take a poll of women? Do you care
[01:42:13] what they think? Do you know what they
[01:42:15] think? No. Of course they have no idea
[01:42:16] what women think. They don't care.
[01:42:17] >> Men's sexual aggression from men that
[01:42:19] they don't want to be sexual with is the
[01:42:21] sort of thing that can scar you for the
[01:42:22] rest of your life.
[01:42:24] >> Well, needless to say, I'm totally
[01:42:26] obviously I'm against any kind of sex.
[01:42:29] Well, I'm against just violence, period.
[01:42:32] But and including choking during sex.
[01:42:34] Sorry. I think it's what is that? Um,
[01:42:37] don't lecture me about me too if you're
[01:42:39] asked to getting choked during sex.
[01:42:40] Sorry, just not taking you seriously.
[01:42:42] But no, I totally agree. Sexual assault,
[01:42:44] rape, we don't punish rape
[01:42:46] severely enough. Most men feel that way,
[01:42:48] by the way. It's the female judges who
[01:42:51] let the rapist out early. It's not the
[01:42:52] male judges. Is
[01:42:52] >> that true?
[01:42:53] >> Of course it's true. Of course, it's
[01:42:55] true. It's not your average man thinks
[01:42:58] that rapist should be, you know, boiled
[01:43:00] alive. Yeah, of course. And I've never
[01:43:03] met a man who doesn't feel that way.
[01:43:05] Every man, every normal man feels that
[01:43:07] way. And I've never met anyone who got
[01:43:09] off on rape fantasies. In fact, I would
[01:43:12] bet my house that the majority of
[01:43:14] Americans who find rape fantasies
[01:43:16] appealing are not men.
[01:43:19] Sorry.
[01:43:21] >> Tell me I'm wrong. I'm not wrong. I'm
[01:43:22] right.
[01:43:23] >> No, I've seen some really uncomfortable
[01:43:24] data that
[01:43:25] >> Yeah, you have. Right.
[01:43:26] >> When you when you look at uh very
[01:43:28] aggressive porn,
[01:43:30] uh the primary consumer of that is not
[01:43:33] men.
[01:43:33] >> Yeah. Exactly. So, I'm not attacking
[01:43:35] anybody at all.
[01:43:36] >> But people are allowed to have their
[01:43:37] preferences. And in many and in many
[01:43:39] ways, we don't get to choose what it is
[01:43:41] that arouses us.
[01:43:42] >> That's the whole point I've been making
[01:43:44] for 2 hours. This is nature. We're not
[01:43:46] in control of it. We have to conform to
[01:43:48] the system already in place that we did
[01:43:50] not create cuz we're not God. So, you
[01:43:52] just have to deal with what you got.
[01:43:54] politically when that is or publicly in
[01:43:56] terms of PR or press or whatever when
[01:43:58] that becomes inconvenient because there
[01:44:00] is a movement in one direction that goes
[01:44:02] against what is uh preferred natural
[01:44:04] predisposed in another. So great example
[01:44:07] of this talking about the aftershock of
[01:44:09] me too which we're still in the blast
[01:44:11] radius of in many ways. Half of single
[01:44:14] men under the age of 30 18 to 30 report
[01:44:16] not approaching a woman in the last
[01:44:17] year. About 82% of women report
[01:44:21] experiencing creepy behavior uh
[01:44:23] sometimes often or always by men. Right?
[01:44:26] So you have um guys not approaching
[01:44:29] women for fear of making them
[01:44:31] uncomfortable, for fear of being a part
[01:44:32] of some news story. Women also being
[01:44:34] made to feel uncomfortable at least
[01:44:36] sometimes during their life. But 86% of
[01:44:40] women say that they want a man to make
[01:44:42] the first move.
[01:44:42] >> Exactly.
[01:44:43] >> So, let's try and square this circle,
[01:44:45] right? You have women, guys know that if
[01:44:47] they don't make the first move,
[01:44:48] nothing's really going to happen because
[01:44:50] 86% of women say that they want to do
[01:44:51] it. Women also kind of want guys to make
[01:44:54] the first move, but are fearful because
[01:44:57] sometimes they're creepy and they are
[01:44:59] the more vulnerable sex. I feel like in
[01:45:01] this
[01:45:03] an acceptance of okay, there needs to be
[01:45:05] a buffer zone for well-meaning
[01:45:09] and non-dangerous
[01:45:11] errors to be made. You know, a a guy was
[01:45:14] a little bit silly with the way that he
[01:45:16] came up to you. Don't mock him. Don't
[01:45:18] make him feel small or stupid because he
[01:45:21] wasn't super cool when he came up and
[01:45:22] tried to say hello in a polite way or
[01:45:24] you've got a boyfriend and you can like
[01:45:26] laugh in his face like because you are
[01:45:28] scarring that guy for the next girl that
[01:45:31] he is going to go up to that does really
[01:45:32] want to speak to him. And we're in the
[01:45:34] the aftershock of a time where guys were
[01:45:37] really told like your presence is
[01:45:39] dangerous, your gaze is toxic, your gaze
[01:45:41] can make a woman feel uncomfortable. And
[01:45:43] that's not to say that it can't. If
[01:45:44] you've been stared at on the subway by
[01:45:46] someone for four stops, I bet that that
[01:45:48] really makes you very very uncomfortable
[01:45:50] as a woman. So like in
[01:45:51] >> it's a defining fact of women's lives.
[01:45:53] >> It's messy.
[01:45:54] >> Oh, super complicated. This is this is
[01:45:56] messy and difficult and just saying,
[01:45:58] "Hey, let's let's just give a little bit
[01:46:02] of leeway." And now you may or may not
[01:46:04] have seen these videos. There's these
[01:46:05] women stealing finance bros salads from
[01:46:09] Sweet Greens in Manhattan. this girl,
[01:46:12] this Tik Tok of a girl talking about
[01:46:13] she's a real attractive girl. She's
[01:46:15] doing her hair, getting ready, and she's
[01:46:16] saying that uh some of her friends go to
[01:46:19] salad bars and steal the salads that are
[01:46:22] waiting on the side that have been
[01:46:24] ordered for pre-collection from these
[01:46:26] guys that work on Wall Street. And then
[01:46:28] they find them on Instagram based on the
[01:46:31] name that's on the top of the order and
[01:46:33] message them and say, "I'm so sorry. I
[01:46:34] accidentally picked up your salad." as a
[01:46:37] counter to the fact that so few men that
[01:46:39] are eligible are approaching women.
[01:46:42] There's another video of a girl walking
[01:46:43] through uh Central Park.
[01:46:45] >> They're really clever, I must say.
[01:46:46] >> Dude, they they wipe the floor with guys
[01:46:49] with that social stuff. Another girl
[01:46:51] walking through Central Park and she's
[01:46:52] like glowing skin uh like low cut top,
[01:46:55] attractive woman, mid-20s, whatever. And
[01:46:57] she's basically saying like, "Walking
[01:46:58] through Central Park, my hair is great,
[01:47:00] my skin's great, I've got the boobs out
[01:47:02] today, and I wonder if any man is going
[01:47:04] to approach me." So, it's evident to me
[01:47:07] that there is a a world of women who
[01:47:10] really would quite like to be approached
[01:47:12] more by guys. And
[01:47:15] the men who needed a little bit more
[01:47:17] encouragement, I think, are still on the
[01:47:18] the timid side. And unfortunately, the
[01:47:20] guys that were blasting through
[01:47:21] boundaries just disregarded the advice
[01:47:23] of me too. In any case,
[01:47:24] >> I think the wisest thing you said um
[01:47:27] artfully was that this is just
[01:47:29] incredibly complex and that it
[01:47:31] [clears throat] may in some sense be
[01:47:32] beyond the capacity of people to really
[01:47:34] understand it.
[01:47:36] But you do the thing that is necessary
[01:47:38] that will fix it, which is just tell the
[01:47:39] truth about what you see. Be sincere
[01:47:42] about what you observe. You know, try to
[01:47:45] make things better. Like that's the only
[01:47:46] answer. It's we got here because of
[01:47:48] lying. People just like lying about
[01:47:50] obvious things, denying what their
[01:47:53] senses tell them
[01:47:54] >> for ideological reasons or whatever dark
[01:47:56] reason. But like lying is just bad. And
[01:47:58] you always wind up in a bad place when
[01:47:59] you do it.
[01:48:01] And so I think you are a trutht teller
[01:48:03] on these questions and I really
[01:48:05] appreciate all the time you took today.
[01:48:07] >> I appreciate you too, man.
[01:48:09] >> Thank you. And no judgment to the joking
[01:48:11] fantasy people, but that is creepy.
[01:48:14] >> Thank you.
[01:48:23] We've got a new website we hope you will
[01:48:25] visit. It's called newcommissionnow.com
[01:48:28] and it refers to a new 9/11 commission.
[01:48:32] So, we spent months putting together our
[01:48:34] 9/11 documentary series. And if [music]
[01:48:37] there's one thing we learned, it's that
[01:48:39] in fact there was fornowledge of the
[01:48:42] attacks. People knew.
[01:48:44] >> The American [music] public deserves to
[01:48:46] know.
[01:48:46] >> We're shocked actually to learn that, to
[01:48:48] have that confirmed, but it's true. The
[01:48:49] evidence is overwhelming. The CIA, for
[01:48:51] example, knew the hijackers were here
[01:48:53] [music] in the United States. They knew
[01:48:54] they were planning an act of terror.
[01:48:56] >> In his passport is a visa [music] to go
[01:48:59] to United States of America.
[01:49:00] >> A foreign national was caught
[01:49:02] celebrating as the World Trade Center
[01:49:04] fell and later said he was in New York
[01:49:06] quote to document [music] the event. How
[01:49:09] do you know there would be an event to
[01:49:10] document in the first place? Because he
[01:49:11] had fornowledge. And maybe most
[01:49:13] amazingly, somebody, an unknown
[01:49:16] investor, shorted American [music]
[01:49:18] Airlines and United Airlines, the
[01:49:19] companies whose planes the attackers
[01:49:21] used on 911, as well as the banks that
[01:49:24] were inside the Twin Towers just before
[01:49:25] the attacks. They made money on the 9/11
[01:49:28] attacks [music] because they knew they
[01:49:30] were coming. Who did that?
[01:49:32] >> You have to look at the evidence.
[01:49:34] >> The US government [music] learned the
[01:49:36] name of that investor, but never
[01:49:38] released it.
[01:49:41] Maybe there's an instant explanation for
[01:49:42] all this, but there isn't actually. And
[01:49:45] by the way, it doesn't matter whether
[01:49:46] there is or not. The public deserves to
[01:49:49] know what the hell that was. [music] How
[01:49:51] did people know ahead of time? And why
[01:49:52] was no one ever punished for it? 9/11
[01:49:55] Commission, the original one, was a
[01:49:57] fraud. It was fake. Its conclusions were
[01:50:00] written before the investigation.
[01:50:02] [music] That's true, and it's
[01:50:03] outrageous. This country needs a new
[01:50:06] 9/11 commission. [music] one that
[01:50:08] actually tells the truth that tries to
[01:50:10] get to the bottom of the story. We can't
[01:50:12] just move [music] on like nothing
[01:50:13] happened.
[01:50:14] >> 911 commission
[01:50:17] cover.
[01:50:17] >> Something [music] did happen. We need to
[01:50:20] force a new investigation into 9/11
[01:50:23] almost 25 years later. Sorry, justice
[01:50:26] [music] demands it. And if you want
[01:50:27] that, go to new commissionow.com
[01:50:30] to add your name to our petition. We're
[01:50:33] not getting paid for this. We're doing
[01:50:34] this cuz we really mean it.
[01:50:35] Newcommissionow.com [music]
ℹ️ Document Details
SHA-256
yt_DWybONUddV4
Dataset
youtube
Comments 0