📄 Extracted Text (15,950 words)
[00:00:01] Well, let me call to order this third
[00:00:03] hearing of the Senate Committee on
[00:00:04] Homeland Security Governmental
[00:00:05] Governmental Affairs Subcommittee on
[00:00:08] Disaster Management, which I am
[00:00:09] delighted to work on with my colleague,
[00:00:11] Ranking Member Kim. I want to thank you,
[00:00:13] say a thank you to all of our witnesses
[00:00:15] for being here, as well as everybody who
[00:00:17] is in the room and joining us online.
[00:00:19] The title of today's hearing is
[00:00:21] examining fraud and foreign influence in
[00:00:23] state and federal programs. And today's
[00:00:26] hearing is going to examine two pillars
[00:00:28] that are truly fundamental to our
[00:00:31] republic and to the confidence of the
[00:00:32] American people in our republic. And
[00:00:35] that is the integrity of our public
[00:00:36] funds and the integrity of our political
[00:00:39] system. Let me just start with the
[00:00:41] second one. As early as the
[00:00:42] constitutional convention, Alexander
[00:00:44] Hamilton warned that foreign powers
[00:00:46] would try to exploit America's freedoms
[00:00:48] to sew divisions inside our country.
[00:00:51] Threats from foreign influence, he said,
[00:00:53] should never be dismissed as idle or as
[00:00:55] hypothetical. And today, we are
[00:00:57] confronting a raft of allegations and
[00:00:59] reports that foreign influence and
[00:01:02] foreign money is making its way into the
[00:01:04] American political system and is
[00:01:06] financing activities that is not only
[00:01:08] destructive, detrimental, and divisive,
[00:01:10] but also potentially illegal. At the
[00:01:13] same time, more and more Americans are
[00:01:16] rightly concerned about the use of their
[00:01:18] tax dollars and where their tax money is
[00:01:21] being spent around the country. You
[00:01:22] know, I've often thought watching and
[00:01:25] reading reports here in recent months
[00:01:26] that if you are a hardworking American
[00:01:28] taxpayer, if you're somebody who wakes
[00:01:30] up every morning, goes to your job,
[00:01:32] plays by the rules, plays the tax pays
[00:01:34] your taxes, you must feel like such an
[00:01:37] idiot. I mean, you must feel so taken
[00:01:39] advantage of because here we have
[00:01:42] reports, credible reports, and we're
[00:01:43] going to hear more about it today with
[00:01:44] some substantiation of billions of
[00:01:47] dollars of taxpayer money. Your money,
[00:01:49] your tax funds being taken and spent on
[00:01:52] illicit activities, on foreign overseas
[00:01:55] activities, on other illegal and
[00:01:58] criminal activities. It's absolutely
[00:02:00] outrageous. And it's time that we got
[00:02:02] accountability for how Americans
[00:02:04] hard-earned tax dollars are being spent
[00:02:07] and how the integrity of our political
[00:02:09] system is being protected. We're going
[00:02:12] to hear testimony that tens of billions
[00:02:14] of dollars intended to serve the public
[00:02:15] have been lost to fraud. In the state of
[00:02:17] Minnesota alone, organized criminal
[00:02:20] criminal syndicates stole COVID era
[00:02:22] disaster money to the tune of billions
[00:02:24] of dollars. And since then, they have
[00:02:26] defrauded money from every single
[00:02:28] federally funded program in the state of
[00:02:30] Minnesota. Let me say that again. Every
[00:02:33] single federally funded program in the
[00:02:36] state of Minnesota. Programs intended
[00:02:38] for children, for the elderly, for the
[00:02:41] poor, for the sick, for the most
[00:02:43] vulnerable Americans. We're going to
[00:02:44] hear testimony that 9 billion dollar has
[00:02:47] been defrauded in Minnesota from
[00:02:48] Medicaid alone. $9 billion
[00:02:53] vanishing into luxury cars, overseas
[00:02:56] vacations, billions going to fund
[00:02:58] foreign adversaries, billions shipped
[00:03:00] out of the country. In the last two
[00:03:02] years alone, get this now, nearly $700
[00:03:04] million in cold, hard cash was stuffed
[00:03:07] into suitcases and flown out of
[00:03:10] Minneapolis.
[00:03:11] $700 million. That is 14,000 lb of $100
[00:03:16] bills in suitcases flown out of our
[00:03:20] country overseas. We're going to hear
[00:03:22] testimony that American taxpayers
[00:03:23] nationwide are losing north of a
[00:03:25] trillion dollar a year in government
[00:03:28] programs. That's the Pentagon's entire
[00:03:30] budget. A trillion dollar a year. This
[00:03:32] isn't isolated crooks gaming the system.
[00:03:35] I wish it were. It's transnational
[00:03:37] criminal syndicates siphoning money out
[00:03:40] of America. 70% of that loot flows
[00:03:42] overseas, funding cartels, terrorists,
[00:03:46] adversaries like North Korea, China,
[00:03:48] Iran, Russia. Money meant for American
[00:03:52] grandparents, working families, the
[00:03:55] elderly, the sick is instead funding
[00:03:57] organized crime, arming our enemies, and
[00:04:00] subsidizing the trafficking of children.
[00:04:02] And the threats don't end there. In
[00:04:04] recent weeks, we have seen anti-ICE
[00:04:06] protests escalate into outright
[00:04:08] lawlessness.
[00:04:10] What we're going to hear testimony about
[00:04:12] today is these were not spontaneous
[00:04:13] protests in many cases. It's
[00:04:16] manufactured chaos. And who is behind
[00:04:18] it? Dark money networks and foreign
[00:04:20] actors, some of whom have ties to the
[00:04:23] Chinese Communist Party. We're going to
[00:04:25] hear testimony that these activities are
[00:04:27] funded and coordinated by a dense
[00:04:28] network of nonprofits and foreign linked
[00:04:31] actors who use layer upon layer of pass
[00:04:34] through entities to hide the money
[00:04:36] trail. classic dark money, money
[00:04:39] laundering, to take foreign money and
[00:04:42] foreign influence and to dump it into
[00:04:44] our political system. It's sort of like
[00:04:46] riot incorporated. Pre-planned tactics
[00:04:49] designed not to protest, but to
[00:04:50] destabilize, to erode faith in our
[00:04:52] institutions, and to force political
[00:04:55] change through manufactured crisis.
[00:04:57] Listen, at the end of the day, this
[00:04:58] hearing is about a simple question. Is
[00:05:01] our government equipped to safeguard
[00:05:02] taxpayer dollars, protect the rule of
[00:05:05] law, and defend our institutions from
[00:05:07] exploitation? Because right now, it sure
[00:05:09] doesn't look like it. And it's time we
[00:05:10] got some answers for the American
[00:05:12] people. With that, I'll recognize my
[00:05:14] colleague, Senator Kim.
[00:05:15] >> Thank you, Chairman, and good afternoon,
[00:05:17] everyone. Um, look, it's it's so very
[00:05:20] important that we stand up for the
[00:05:23] American people, that we stand against
[00:05:25] fraud, and I want to thank the witnesses
[00:05:27] here today to join us and to hear their
[00:05:30] perspectives. Fraud is an issue that
[00:05:32] touches every single state, not just
[00:05:34] one. It touches every single community.
[00:05:37] Its perpetrators include individuals
[00:05:39] from every background, and its impact is
[00:05:41] felt by every American. And so I hope we
[00:05:44] can all come together and say absolutely
[00:05:47] we need to be stewards of our taxpayer
[00:05:49] dollars and to be able to do this in a
[00:05:51] way where we can look them in the eye
[00:05:52] and say that we are running a government
[00:05:55] that's able to look out for their
[00:05:58] investments and be able to deliver for
[00:06:00] them. So I understand that. But we have
[00:06:03] to make sure we're doing this in a way
[00:06:04] that doesn't single out any one group or
[00:06:07] people or broadly classify them as
[00:06:09] fraudsters because we know that would be
[00:06:12] inacc inaccurate as well given how
[00:06:14] widespread this is. So I want to be
[00:06:16] clear. I condemn fraud at every level
[00:06:18] and believe that those who make a living
[00:06:21] scamming the American people must pay a
[00:06:24] price and I take preventing fraud and
[00:06:27] and prosecuting wrongdoing very
[00:06:29] seriously. However, we again cannot and
[00:06:32] should not use fraud as an excuse to go
[00:06:34] after political enemies, to militarize
[00:06:37] American cities or wield government
[00:06:39] power in a way that goes after the
[00:06:41] American people as they utilize
[00:06:43] constitutional rights to stand against
[00:06:45] injustice to make sure that we are not
[00:06:48] delegitimizing legitimate freedom of
[00:06:51] expression and gathering.
[00:06:53] Just last month, we saw another horrific
[00:06:56] unnecessary death of an American
[00:06:58] citizen. This is a moment where many are
[00:07:01] frightened and I hear that back in my
[00:07:03] home state as well. We have a
[00:07:05] responsibility as we are doing our due
[00:07:07] diligence in terms of governance to make
[00:07:09] sure we are not throwing gasoline on the
[00:07:13] fire and that we are doing it a way that
[00:07:15] can keep a level head and be able to
[00:07:17] think through pragmatically what we can
[00:07:19] do to be able to address these problems
[00:07:21] that we face. They deserve serious
[00:07:24] executive legislative action to address
[00:07:26] fraud and can and need to be bipartisan
[00:07:29] for us to be able to get them done. This
[00:07:32] committee and this Congress must address
[00:07:34] these important problems of addressing
[00:07:36] fraud with an understanding that fraud
[00:07:38] happens all over our nation and has a
[00:07:40] wide range of issues and programs.
[00:07:43] Happens in the private sector, happens
[00:07:44] in the public sector, happens under both
[00:07:47] the Democratic and Republican
[00:07:48] administrations and leadership. We
[00:07:51] should not be complacent to it. We have
[00:07:53] a responsibility again to be stewards of
[00:07:56] the taxpayer dollars. But this demands a
[00:07:58] comprehensive strategy, not a
[00:07:59] whack-a-ole approach. Thus, I'll
[00:08:02] conclude by just saying we must show the
[00:08:04] American people that we are using their
[00:08:06] hard-earned dollars responsibly and not
[00:08:08] rewarding wrongdoers or looking the
[00:08:10] other way due to partisan or political
[00:08:13] convenience. We must also restore trust
[00:08:16] in our government at a time when it is
[00:08:17] at an all-time low and be able to make
[00:08:20] sure that there's accountability no
[00:08:21] matter who is at fault regardless of
[00:08:24] their political background or if they
[00:08:26] sit in the Oval Office or here at in
[00:08:28] Congress or in a governor's office.
[00:08:30] Actions that only invite more fraud
[00:08:33] within the programs that we have. I'm
[00:08:35] looking forward to hearing from our
[00:08:37] witnesses today and working on this
[00:08:39] matter together. And with that, Mr.
[00:08:40] Chairman, I'll yield back.
[00:08:42] Thank you very much, Ranking Member Kim.
[00:08:44] It's the practice of this subcommittee
[00:08:46] to swear in our witnesses before they
[00:08:48] testify. So, I'll ask you, if you would
[00:08:50] to stand with me now, raise your right
[00:08:52] hand and answer this question.
[00:08:55] Do you swear that the testimony you're
[00:08:56] about to give will be the truth, the
[00:08:57] whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
[00:08:59] So, help God.
[00:09:02] >> All of the witnesses answered in the
[00:09:03] affirmative. Uh, we will now proceed to
[00:09:06] questions. Uh, actually, I'm jumping the
[00:09:09] gun. I'll let you speak first. How about
[00:09:11] that? We'll I'd love to start with
[00:09:12] questions, but we'll let the witnesses
[00:09:14] speak first. Let me introduce We'll just
[00:09:16] go down the panel. We'll start here on
[00:09:17] the left. Let me introduce first the
[00:09:19] honorable Mr. Mark Corin, Senator Mark
[00:09:21] Corin. Uh Mark Corin is a Minnesota
[00:09:24] State Senator. He's also a member of the
[00:09:26] Minnesota Senate Legislative Audit
[00:09:28] Commission. It's great to have you with
[00:09:30] us, Senator Corin. And uh I'll turn it
[00:09:32] over to you for your opening statement.
[00:09:34] >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Members, thank you
[00:09:37] for the work that you're doing to
[00:09:38] investigate and stop the largescale
[00:09:40] systemic fraud that Minnesota is
[00:09:42] experiencing under Democrat Governor Tim
[00:09:44] Walls. I appreciate the opportunity to
[00:09:46] share my insight on the fraud as I've
[00:09:48] seen in my nine years as a Minnesota
[00:09:50] state senator as well as being on the
[00:09:52] Legislative Audit Commission. The
[00:09:53] Legislative Audit Commission is a
[00:09:55] bipartisan commission. The commission
[00:09:57] appoints the uh appoints the legislative
[00:09:59] auditor, a nonpartisan position whose
[00:10:02] whose job is to hold state agencies
[00:10:04] accountable. The auditor reviews
[00:10:05] programs across state government, flags
[00:10:07] misuse of taxpayers, taxpayer dollars
[00:10:09] and and statutory non-compliance and
[00:10:12] violations. I spent nine years
[00:10:13] overseeing that work and I can tell you
[00:10:15] plainly that most of these audits are
[00:10:16] bad. One of the most common failures as
[00:10:19] state agencies is not verifying the
[00:10:21] grant recipients did the work that they
[00:10:23] were paid to do. In January 2026, just
[00:10:26] recently, the the the auditor found
[00:10:28] something that she said she's never seen
[00:10:30] in her 27-year career. State employees
[00:10:32] are backdating and and fabricating
[00:10:34] documents after they after an audit has
[00:10:37] started looking to mislead our auditors.
[00:10:40] The fraud in Minnesota is pervasive and
[00:10:41] systemic from the executive branch
[00:10:43] through the state agencies even when the
[00:10:45] legislature puts safeguards in place.
[00:10:47] They are often ignored and they are
[00:10:49] rarely there are rarely any real
[00:10:50] consequences. I've seen this up close
[00:10:53] which is why as I look at the broader
[00:10:54] fraud crisis I want to start by
[00:10:56] highlighting three things. First, the
[00:10:59] billions of dollars in fraud in
[00:11:00] Minnesota is devastating to our social
[00:11:02] service programs and communities, our
[00:11:04] children, disabled, elderly motans, and
[00:11:07] the and the legitimate providers who who
[00:11:09] earn their livelihood providing these
[00:11:11] vital services. Second, the governor Tim
[00:11:13] Walls and his administration, including
[00:11:15] attorney general Keith Ellison, have
[00:11:17] overseen the largest expansion and
[00:11:19] fastest acceleration of fraud this
[00:11:20] country has ever seen. They have
[00:11:22] repeatedly ignored data warnings, data
[00:11:24] and warnings from legislators,
[00:11:26] nonpartisan audits. They've retaliated
[00:11:28] against whistleblowers exposing fraud
[00:11:30] and they've actively attempted to block
[00:11:32] and disrupt anti-fraud efforts. And
[00:11:34] third, because of the failure of
[00:11:35] Governor Walls and the M Minnesota
[00:11:37] Democrats to address fraud, we welcome
[00:11:39] the fe federal government to step up and
[00:11:41] and uncover the audit and stop the fraud
[00:11:44] in Minnesota to protect state and
[00:11:45] federal tax dollars. Governor Walls and
[00:11:48] Minnesota Democrats fraud crisis is
[00:11:49] either a result of gross incompetence or
[00:11:51] willful complicity. And I think it's
[00:11:54] both. The devastation of this
[00:11:55] incompetence and complicity totals far
[00:11:58] more than far more in dollars than the
[00:12:00] media, Governor Walls, or the Democrats
[00:12:02] admit in public. It's not millions. It's
[00:12:04] not hundreds of millions. It's billions
[00:12:06] of dollars stolen. As for the
[00:12:09] perpetrators stealing the money from
[00:12:10] children, the elderly, and the people
[00:12:12] who rely on social services to live a
[00:12:14] normal life, their actions are
[00:12:15] unamerican. While justice should not
[00:12:18] discriminate against any specific
[00:12:19] community, whether the criminal is from
[00:12:21] Minnesota, Philadelphia, or Somalia,
[00:12:24] make no mistake that fraudsters
[00:12:26] discriminate against just one community,
[00:12:30] Americans. This targeted discrimination
[00:12:33] to swindle funds from our social
[00:12:34] programs from the United States has to
[00:12:36] be stopped. But it's critical that the
[00:12:38] fraud is investigated and prosecuted.
[00:12:40] Legitimate businesses and providers are
[00:12:42] not also punished for the illegal
[00:12:44] actions of some. So, as we direct our
[00:12:47] hindsight towards addressing the crisis,
[00:12:49] we also have to take measures to stop
[00:12:50] the fraud before it starts. Minnesota
[00:12:53] Republicans have been exposing this
[00:12:55] rampid fraud in state programs for many
[00:12:57] years now. Talking with whistleblowers
[00:12:58] and proposing new safeguards to stop
[00:13:00] fraud. Increased eligibility checks and
[00:13:03] incentives from the federal government
[00:13:04] to reduce air rates will help ensure
[00:13:06] programs are there for those who need
[00:13:08] them most. What's clear is that our
[00:13:10] state agencies need stricter oversight.
[00:13:12] Last year in the Senate, we passed
[00:13:14] bipartisan legislation to create an
[00:13:15] anti-fraud office, the office of the
[00:13:17] inspector general, an independent
[00:13:19] nonpartisan office designated to
[00:13:21] identify, investigate, and prosecute
[00:13:23] fraud. This effort was blocked by the
[00:13:25] Democrats in the House, but it remains
[00:13:26] our top priority as we go into this next
[00:13:28] session. hindsight measures like the OIG
[00:13:31] and the and federal oversight combined
[00:13:33] with foresight measures to drastically
[00:13:35] improve eligibility determination will
[00:13:38] help help protect taxpayer dollars and
[00:13:41] get it to the programs that need it the
[00:13:42] most, not in the hands of the criminals
[00:13:44] who betray our goodwill and take
[00:13:46] advantage of our generosity. I
[00:13:48] appreciate the time and your careful
[00:13:49] attention to the fraud crisis in
[00:13:50] Minnesota. It has only been because of
[00:13:52] the national spotlight that our leaders
[00:13:54] have begun to admit the fraud problem is
[00:13:56] as dire as it is. Minnesota is ground
[00:13:59] zero for the fraud epidemic. But as we
[00:14:01] can be as we but we can uh become the
[00:14:04] blueprint for how to prevent fraud if
[00:14:06] the right actions are taken. I hope that
[00:14:08] our leaders will work with the federal
[00:14:09] government to be able to move forward
[00:14:10] from this dark stain on our state's
[00:14:12] history. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
[00:14:14] >> Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Corin. Next up
[00:14:15] is Haywood Talov. Mr. Talov is the CEO
[00:14:18] of Lexus Nexus Risk Solutions. Mr.
[00:14:21] Talov, the floor is yours.
[00:14:23] >> Chairman Holly, Ranking Member Kim, and
[00:14:26] members of the subcommittee. Thank you
[00:14:27] for the opportunity to testify today. I
[00:14:30] have spent my career working to protect
[00:14:32] taxpayers and our most vulnerable from
[00:14:35] organized criminal groups who exploit
[00:14:36] our country's generosity and kindness. I
[00:14:40] have worked with the Secret Service on
[00:14:42] investigations and felt the personal
[00:14:44] impact fraud has on loved ones like my
[00:14:46] 84 yearear-old mother who lives in
[00:14:48] Florida. This country has built a social
[00:14:52] safety net grounded on a pledge. When
[00:14:55] Americans face hardship through
[00:14:56] disaster, job loss or crisis, their
[00:15:00] government will respond with speed,
[00:15:02] fairness, and dignity. In my remarks, I
[00:15:06] will focus on the scale of the fraud
[00:15:07] crisis and key solutions we can
[00:15:10] implement to stop it. The United States
[00:15:12] government is ripe for exploitation and
[00:15:15] likely the single largest funer of cyber
[00:15:17] crime in the world. Fraud in government
[00:15:20] programs is significant. It materially
[00:15:23] undermines the financial health of the
[00:15:25] country and contri excuse me and
[00:15:28] contributes meaningfully to the nation's
[00:15:30] $ 38 trillion national debt. These are
[00:15:34] not your constituents. These are real
[00:15:36] criminals stealing real tax dollars,
[00:15:39] using fake companies, and stolen
[00:15:41] identities. The scale of the problem is
[00:15:44] real. The GAO places losses at over $500
[00:15:48] billion a year. Secretary Bessant
[00:15:51] estimates losses of up to $600 billion a
[00:15:54] year, around 2% of GDP, while I put the
[00:15:58] number closer to $1 trillion annually,
[00:16:01] or $115 million every single hour, of
[00:16:06] which 70% is related to transnational
[00:16:10] criminals. Others have placed the number
[00:16:13] as high as 1.5 trillion. Over the last
[00:16:16] decade, taxpayers have lost anywhere
[00:16:19] between 7 to 12 trillion dollar to these
[00:16:23] criminal organizations stealing from our
[00:16:25] benefit programs. We now spend more on
[00:16:28] fraud than we spend on servicing the
[00:16:30] national debt or the defense budget.
[00:16:33] Fraud is a national security issue. It
[00:16:36] is a fiscal crisis. It is a betrayal of
[00:16:39] the people these programs are meant to
[00:16:40] serve. and it impacts the trust your
[00:16:43] constituents have in their government
[00:16:45] and its leadership. The problem is not
[00:16:47] new, but it's been escalating. It
[00:16:50] started with Hurricane Katrina when
[00:16:52] benefits were provided with no controls.
[00:16:55] The criminals learned that government
[00:16:56] was a soft target. It never runs out of
[00:16:59] money. You have a low chance of being
[00:17:01] caught, less than onetenth of 1%, and
[00:17:04] pay and chase does not work. The
[00:17:06] pandemic then took fraud to the next
[00:17:08] level. domestic and transnational
[00:17:11] criminal organizations, steal and
[00:17:13] manufacture identities and companies,
[00:17:16] share data and best practices on the
[00:17:18] dark web, exploit complicated
[00:17:20] eligibility systems, and move cash
[00:17:22] around borders to foreign adversaries.
[00:17:25] These actors are sophisticated, they are
[00:17:27] dangerous, and they operate in all 50
[00:17:30] states. They weaponize our compassion
[00:17:33] against programs we consider too vital
[00:17:35] to question. They know officials will
[00:17:37] hesitate to scrutinize aid meant for
[00:17:39] people in desperate need. They exploit
[00:17:42] our best instincts to commit their worst
[00:17:44] crimes. This is not a flaw in the
[00:17:46] system. It is a feature of how these
[00:17:48] criminal enterprises operate. The core
[00:17:51] problem has a name, selfattestation.
[00:17:54] Programs that operate on the honor
[00:17:56] system invite exploitation by
[00:17:58] transnational criminal groups. This is
[00:18:00] the first time in my career that I have
[00:18:03] confidence we can effectively counter
[00:18:05] threats to the most vulnerable while
[00:18:07] also protecting hard-earned tax dollars.
[00:18:10] I want to commend the administration for
[00:18:12] establishing a new Department of Justice
[00:18:14] leadership position focused on fraud
[00:18:17] enforcement and the United States Secret
[00:18:19] Service for its support work, especially
[00:18:22] in the SNAP program. Their involvement
[00:18:24] shows that when federal resources are
[00:18:26] applied, criminal networks can be shut
[00:18:28] down.
[00:18:30] If we want to save $1 trillion annually
[00:18:32] and restore trust, we must change how we
[00:18:35] do businesses business before it's too
[00:18:37] late. These are my four recommendations.
[00:18:40] First, front-end identity verification
[00:18:42] like that used in the private sector.
[00:18:45] Second, enforce mandatory reertification
[00:18:47] and continuous validation for every
[00:18:49] current recipient of an entitlement.
[00:18:52] Third, independent thirdparty audits.
[00:18:56] Fourth, the use of federal law
[00:18:58] enforcement. These fixes are easy. The
[00:19:01] technology and the data exist and are
[00:19:03] used every day by commercial entities.
[00:19:06] Let me be clear. Fraud prevention is not
[00:19:09] benefit prevention. Integrity is not the
[00:19:12] opposite of compassion. It is what makes
[00:19:15] compassion sustainable. Thank you and I
[00:19:17] look forward to your questions.
[00:19:19] >> Thank you very much. Next up is Mr.
[00:19:20] Sheamus Bruner. Mr. Bruner is the vice
[00:19:22] president at the Government
[00:19:24] Accountability Institute. Go ahead, Mr.
[00:19:26] >> Mr. Chairman. Thank you. Thank you,
[00:19:28] ranking me member and members of the
[00:19:29] committee. Thank you. I want to build
[00:19:31] directly on the testimony we just heard
[00:19:33] regarding pervasive fraud and state
[00:19:35] administered fally funded benefit
[00:19:37] programs. As Senator Corin and Mr. Talov
[00:19:40] described, what we are seeing in
[00:19:42] Minnesota is not isolated misconduct. It
[00:19:44] is systemic fraud enabled by weak
[00:19:46] oversight, fragmented authority, and a
[00:19:49] benefits architecture that allows large
[00:19:51] sums of taxpayer assistance to be
[00:19:53] distributed with minimal verification
[00:19:56] and little consequence for abuse. What
[00:19:58] is important for the committee to
[00:19:59] understand is that the nonprofit and NGO
[00:20:02] systems operating around these benefit
[00:20:04] programs do not exist in isolation. They
[00:20:07] are part of a broader ecosystem that
[00:20:09] links migration, government benefits,
[00:20:11] political mobilization, and when
[00:20:13] challenged, organized disruption. Put
[00:20:16] simply, these anti-ICE disruptions are
[00:20:20] not isolated protest activity, but part
[00:20:22] of a larger interconnected system
[00:20:24] involving migration, government
[00:20:26] benefits, and political mobilization.
[00:20:28] At the front end of this system,
[00:20:30] nonprofit and NGO networks facilitate
[00:20:33] and incentivize mass migration by
[00:20:35] navigating access to government benefits
[00:20:37] and services for the migrants, what we
[00:20:39] refer to as migrant inc. The benefits
[00:20:42] themselves do not flow into these NOS's.
[00:20:44] Instead, they function as a form of
[00:20:46] patronage, creating creating dependency
[00:20:49] among migrant populations and anchoring
[00:20:51] them to nonprofit intermediaries that
[00:20:54] manage information, access, and ongoing
[00:20:57] engagement.
[00:20:58] >> [snorts]
[00:20:58] >> That dependency is the leverage. It
[00:21:01] keeps populations embedded within an
[00:21:03] organizational ecosystem operating in
[00:21:05] environments of weak oversight and
[00:21:07] limited enforcement cond conditions
[00:21:09] we've clearly seen in Minnesota.
[00:21:12] These same nonprofit ecosystems then
[00:21:15] transition into political mobilization,
[00:21:17] voter registration, ballot education,
[00:21:19] turnout operations, and sustained civic
[00:21:22] engagement, what we call election inc.
[00:21:25] While often presented as nonpartisan
[00:21:27] activity, in practice, this functions as
[00:21:29] a durable political infrastructure,
[00:21:31] maintaining communications networks and
[00:21:34] organizational capa capacity that
[00:21:36] persist across election cycles and
[00:21:38] reliably align with particular political
[00:21:41] outcomes. Importantly,
[00:21:44] many of these large NGO networks
[00:21:46] operating across these stages rely on
[00:21:48] complex and opaque funding structures,
[00:21:51] including donor advised funds, fiscal
[00:21:54] sponsorships, and international
[00:21:56] financing streams, some of which trace
[00:21:58] back to foreign nationals and foreign
[00:22:00] connected entities. These arrangements
[00:22:03] are designed to obscure the true source
[00:22:04] of funding while preserving centralized
[00:22:07] operational control.
[00:22:09] And when enforcement actions, fraud
[00:22:11] investigations, or policy changes
[00:22:13] threaten this system, whether through
[00:22:15] ICE operations, benefit eligibility
[00:22:18] scrutiny, or election integrity
[00:22:20] measures, those networks activate a
[00:22:23] third component, what we call riot, Inc.
[00:22:26] At this stage, organized disruption,
[00:22:28] intimidation, and civil unrest are
[00:22:30] deployed strategically to raise the
[00:22:33] political cost of enforcement and to
[00:22:35] deter accountability.
[00:22:37] The same organizational infrastructure
[00:22:39] that facilitates migration and political
[00:22:41] mobilization suddenly appears in
[00:22:43] coordinated street activity, complete
[00:22:46] with pre-planned tactics, logistics,
[00:22:48] importantly legal support, and messaging
[00:22:51] designed to overwhelm or paralyze lawful
[00:22:54] government action. These are not
[00:22:56] separate phenomena. They are
[00:22:58] interconnected stages of the same
[00:22:59] NGO-driven political operation sustained
[00:23:02] by dependency, protected by opacity, and
[00:23:05] in some cases amplified by foreign
[00:23:07] linked funding intersecting with
[00:23:09] domestic political activity. The same
[00:23:12] analytical tools that expose benefit
[00:23:14] fraud, following the money, mapping
[00:23:16] nonprofit relationships, and tracing
[00:23:18] organizational control also reveal the
[00:23:21] continuity between Migrant Inc.,
[00:23:22] Election Inc., and when the system is
[00:23:24] threatened, Riot Inc. Understanding that
[00:23:27] full pipeline is essential if Congress
[00:23:29] is serious about restoring
[00:23:30] accountability, protecting taxpayers,
[00:23:32] and preventing foreign linked influence
[00:23:34] operations from hiding behind nonprofit
[00:23:37] status in the language of activism.
[00:23:40] Thank you. I look forward to your
[00:23:41] questions.
[00:23:42] >> Thank you. And now to introduce our
[00:23:44] fourth witness, I'm going to turn it
[00:23:46] over to Senator Kim.
[00:23:47] >> Yeah. Thank you, Chairman. Um, my
[00:23:49] pleasure to be able to introduce our
[00:23:51] witness, uh, Dylan Hedler Gdet, acting
[00:23:53] vice president of policy and government
[00:23:55] affairs at the project on government
[00:23:58] oversight. I know you've been making
[00:24:00] rounds on Capitol Hill, and I'd like to
[00:24:01] thank you for your commitment to
[00:24:03] government oversight and in particular
[00:24:05] your commitment to safeguarding American
[00:24:07] taxpayer dollars. You and I share the
[00:24:09] desire to ensure that American democracy
[00:24:11] is transparent, accountable, and free of
[00:24:14] corruption. I look forward to engaging
[00:24:15] in conversation with you.
[00:24:20] Chairman Holly, Ranking Member Kim, and
[00:24:22] members of the subcommittee, I
[00:24:24] appreciate the opportunity to testify
[00:24:25] before you today on the important issue
[00:24:28] of fraud in the federal government.
[00:24:31] My name is Dylan Hetler Goddet and I am
[00:24:33] the acting vice president of policy and
[00:24:34] government affairs at the Project on
[00:24:36] Government Oversight, Pogo. We are a
[00:24:38] nonpartisan independent watchdog
[00:24:40] organization with 45 years of experience
[00:24:43] promoting accountability, transparency,
[00:24:45] and effectiveness in the federal
[00:24:46] government.
[00:24:49] Fraud in government is a real and
[00:24:53] persistent problem.
[00:24:55] This is not unique, however, to the
[00:24:56] United States, and it certainly is not
[00:24:59] unique to any particular locality or
[00:25:01] community within the United States.
[00:25:04] Fraud persists pretty much everywhere.
[00:25:07] The only thing that mitigates and bounds
[00:25:09] fraud
[00:25:11] is the vigilance of watchd dogs and
[00:25:13] oversight practitioners and the strength
[00:25:15] of transparency tools and accountability
[00:25:17] mechanisms.
[00:25:20] With that said, it is incumbent upon all
[00:25:22] of us to do what we can to prevent
[00:25:24] fraud, especially when fraud is related
[00:25:27] to hardearned taxpayer dollars and
[00:25:30] critical public services. This is true
[00:25:32] whether the fraud takes place in food
[00:25:34] assistance programs in Minnesota or if
[00:25:36] it takes place in the context of
[00:25:38] Mississippi welfare programs which
[00:25:40] involve the world famous Hall of Fame
[00:25:42] NFL quarterback. This is true whether
[00:25:44] the fraud is perpetrated by large
[00:25:46] multinational defense.
[00:25:50] The point here is fraud is a systemic
[00:25:53] problem and it requires systemic
[00:25:55] solutions.
[00:25:57] Please allow me to touch on a few of
[00:26:00] those solutions here, though I elaborate
[00:26:01] on them in more detail in my written
[00:26:03] testimony.
[00:26:05] First,
[00:26:06] key oversight practitioners and internal
[00:26:08] watchdogs
[00:26:10] as well as essential sources of
[00:26:11] information must be strengthened,
[00:26:13] preserved, protected, and sufficiently
[00:26:17] resourced.
[00:26:18] Specifically, I'm talking about
[00:26:20] Inspector General.
[00:26:22] I'm talking about the Government
[00:26:23] Accountability Office. I'm talking about
[00:26:25] the office of special counsel and I'm
[00:26:28] talking about whistleblowers.
[00:26:31] We must also take a long hard look at
[00:26:33] the technology and the architecture we
[00:26:35] currently use to monitor, track,
[00:26:37] analyze, and assess spending.
[00:26:41] That architecture
[00:26:43] is currently broken
[00:26:45] and in dire need of overhaul reform and
[00:26:48] modernization.
[00:26:50] We're in the age of 5G, quantum
[00:26:52] computing, and generative AI.
[00:26:55] And the federal government still largely
[00:26:56] operates in the analog world, maybe at
[00:26:58] best in the Windows 95 world.
[00:27:03] We must also remember that corruption,
[00:27:06] conflicts of interest, and cronyism,
[00:27:10] they act as the anabolic steroids to
[00:27:12] waste, fraud, and abuse in the federal
[00:27:13] government.
[00:27:15] No successful effort to tamp down on
[00:27:17] waste, fraud, and abuse can be
[00:27:18] undertaken without cracking down on
[00:27:20] corruption.
[00:27:22] We've seen recently over the past two
[00:27:23] administrations and for much longer how
[00:27:26] susceptible to abuse and corruption the
[00:27:28] presidential pardon power is. For
[00:27:30] example,
[00:27:32] we also must enact much stronger, more
[00:27:33] robust rules around conflicts of
[00:27:35] interest
[00:27:37] and really crack down on the pay-to-play
[00:27:39] lobbying activities that often corrupt
[00:27:40] and corrode key federal decisions,
[00:27:42] including on the spending of taxpayer
[00:27:45] dollars.
[00:27:47] But just as important as what we must do
[00:27:49] is what we must not do.
[00:27:51] What we must not do is undertake
[00:27:53] [snorts]
[00:27:54] foolhardy,
[00:27:57] overpromising endeavors like the
[00:27:58] Department of Government Efficiency or
[00:28:00] Doge.
[00:28:02] Now, despite its progenitor claiming it
[00:28:04] was going to find $2 trillion in
[00:28:05] taxpayer savings, up to this point on
[00:28:09] Doge's so-called wall of receipts, we've
[00:28:11] only seen about $215 billion of savings.
[00:28:14] And that's assuming you can trust that
[00:28:15] data on its face, which you cannot.
[00:28:18] We've seen a rash of reviews, reports,
[00:28:19] and analyses of this wall of receipts
[00:28:21] which have found basic mathematical
[00:28:23] mistakes, misstatements,
[00:28:26] cherrypicking data,
[00:28:28] and a whole host of other errors. And
[00:28:31] that says nothing about the fact that
[00:28:32] the federal government spent more money
[00:28:34] in 2025 than it did in 2024.
[00:28:38] We have to hand it to one hand, though.
[00:28:42] It did illustrate perfectly exactly how
[00:28:44] not to go about rooting out waste fraud
[00:28:46] and abuse in the federal government.
[00:28:50] The key takeaway here is that fraud is a
[00:28:52] persistent cancerous disease upon the
[00:28:55] federal government. But the only way to
[00:28:57] address it is to get at root causes.
[00:29:01] By focusing on sensationalistic
[00:29:03] anecdotes, we are doing the same thing
[00:29:05] as focusing on symptoms rather than
[00:29:07] attacking the root cause of the disease.
[00:29:11] I look forward to answering your
[00:29:12] questions and I thank you again for
[00:29:14] inviting me to testify today.
[00:29:15] >> Thank you very much. Thanks to each of
[00:29:17] the witnesses. Now we will turn to
[00:29:19] questions. We will alternate uh sides,
[00:29:22] Democrat, Republican. Will start with
[00:29:23] me. We're going to do seven minute
[00:29:24] questioning rounds. Let me just start
[00:29:26] with you, Senator Corin, if I could. I'm
[00:29:28] sure you're familiar with the recent
[00:29:31] anti-ICE protests in Minnesota. Let me
[00:29:33] just ask you this. From your vantage
[00:29:35] point in the state, are the majority of
[00:29:38] these protests spontaneous or more
[00:29:41] organized? What is your impression?
[00:29:43] You're there.
[00:29:46] >> Sorry. Sorry, Mr. Chair. They're highly
[00:29:48] organized and coordinated.
[00:29:50] >> What what what evidence of that? What uh
[00:29:52] what what data what signs have you
[00:29:54] observed that would indicate some level
[00:29:56] of coordination?
[00:29:58] >> Well, you've seen in Minnesota, we've
[00:29:59] seen a wide variety of uh coordinated
[00:30:01] efforts. the the agitation groups on the
[00:30:04] ground. There are a wide variety of
[00:30:05] them. Uh some national, some very
[00:30:07] professional. Um in addition to um local
[00:30:10] reports that state they've trained some
[00:30:13] 30,000 observers to get in and and uh
[00:30:17] get in the middle of the u protests.
[00:30:19] >> Now, what what are the how would you
[00:30:20] describe the tactics that are used
[00:30:22] during these protests that you've
[00:30:24] observed? Peaceful, aggressive, um
[00:30:29] inciting violence, trying to draw a
[00:30:30] reaction. And I mean what again you're
[00:30:32] on the ground so you tell us.
[00:30:33] >> Yeah. What what we've seen is a whole
[00:30:35] host of doxing highly coordinated
[00:30:37] efforts in doxing. We've seen instance
[00:30:39] of violence u against federal agents. I
[00:30:42] think in two cases we've had um agents
[00:30:45] that have had one had their finger
[00:30:46] bitten off and they've been pelted with
[00:30:48] frozen bottles, stones, and every other
[00:30:51] uh type of thing. In addition to
[00:30:53] directly interfering um with legal law
[00:30:56] enforcement.
[00:30:57] >> Let me ask you this. Have you seen any
[00:30:58] evidence that state officials
[00:31:01] are cooperating or coordinating with
[00:31:03] these efforts in any manner?
[00:31:06] >> Yes, we've seen there are there are
[00:31:07] variety of uh state officials, elected
[00:31:09] officials uh that represent the
[00:31:11] Minneapolis area that have gotten
[00:31:13] involved. Some are on the uh chat box,
[00:31:15] the chats uh out there. the um uh we've
[00:31:21] got one sen one representative very
[00:31:23] proud uh Brad Tabkkey uh is a
[00:31:25] representative out there proud making
[00:31:27] sure to help train and coordinate those
[00:31:28] efforts.
[00:31:30] >> Um Mr. Rime, can I just turn to you?
[00:31:33] Senator Corin has said that he has seen
[00:31:35] coordinated efforts within his state to
[00:31:36] disrupt ICE uh including lookout signal
[00:31:40] chats etc. Your organization specializes
[00:31:44] in following nonprofit funding and
[00:31:46] organizational networks. So based on
[00:31:47] your research, what organizations have
[00:31:50] been active on the ground in Minnesota?
[00:31:52] What can you tell us?
[00:31:54] >> Thank you, Mr. Chair.
[00:31:56] >> Uh yes, we have tracked over $60 million
[00:32:00] according to the latest 990 disclosures
[00:32:02] to approximately 14 groups, some of them
[00:32:04] national, others on the ground. Groups
[00:32:07] like the ACLU provide the legal defense
[00:32:10] uh as well as facilitate the trainings
[00:32:11] for some of the tactics that Senator
[00:32:14] Corin Corin just described. a group
[00:32:16] named Democracy Forward, uh, Take Action
[00:32:19] Minnesota has gotten over 10 million
[00:32:21] dollars from these large NGO networks,
[00:32:23] uh, including the Neville Roy Singum
[00:32:25] Network, uh, Indivisible, National
[00:32:28] Lawyers Guild, uh, CTUL, the Council on
[00:32:32] American Islamic Relations Minnesota,
[00:32:34] CARE, uh, Minnesota 350, Voices for
[00:32:38] Racial Justice, on and on. Like I said,
[00:32:40] over $60 million just according to the
[00:32:42] latest 990 disclosures.
[00:32:44] >> $60 million, 14 at least 14 different
[00:32:46] groups. Uh that sounds like a pretty
[00:32:48] broad ecosystem here. Where's this money
[00:32:50] coming from? I mean, how how is it
[00:32:52] flowing to these groups? Do you have any
[00:32:53] sense? So we've built a database that
[00:32:55] contains uh hundreds of thousands of
[00:32:57] rows from grants from networks like the
[00:32:59] Soros network, the Arabella funding
[00:33:02] network, uh as mentioned the Neville Roy
[00:33:04] Singum funding network, many others,
[00:33:06] tides, uh the Ford Foundation network,
[00:33:08] the Rockefeller funding network, these
[00:33:10] massive NOS's that have billions of
[00:33:12] dollars to spend on all kinds of
[00:33:14] coordinated protest or in this case riot
[00:33:17] activity. give us a sense if you could
[00:33:19] of how this money flows to the ground
[00:33:23] level. You know, how does it get from
[00:33:25] these various donors and and come down
[00:33:27] to ground level and start funding
[00:33:29] protests and and other violent activity?
[00:33:31] >> It comes in the form of a check, a six-f
[00:33:33] figure check uh you know that'll come uh
[00:33:36] from whether it's the Open Society or
[00:33:37] the Tithes groups, the Singum groups.
[00:33:40] They'll fund directly some of these on
[00:33:42] the ground organizations. And we've seen
[00:33:43] this uh happen time and again it's not
[00:33:45] just in Minnesota. So the money I think
[00:33:48] we've got a chart perhaps the money gets
[00:33:50] moved around. You just referenced a
[00:33:52] number of these groups. Arabella
[00:33:53] advisors, the tides groups. These are
[00:33:55] left-wing dark money groups. So you've
[00:33:58] got this incredible I mean just look at
[00:33:59] the number of of of different entities
[00:34:01] on this one chart. All of this money
[00:34:03] moving through all of these different
[00:34:05] groups. Many of them again non-disclosed
[00:34:07] donors, right? So we we don't know
[00:34:09] exactly where the donors ultimately come
[00:34:11] from. Often times the entity that gets
[00:34:13] the money doesn't have to report where
[00:34:14] they get the money. So it it's washed
[00:34:16] through multiple times and what you're
[00:34:18] saying is your research has found
[00:34:20] multiple different left-wing groups that
[00:34:22] are funding these protests on the ground
[00:34:23] in Minnesota. Is that a fair statement?
[00:34:25] >> Yeah, that's that's absolutely fair. And
[00:34:27] uh the foreign money is probably the
[00:34:29] most concerning whether it's from
[00:34:30] Neville Roy Singum or the Swiss
[00:34:32] billionaire Hans York.
[00:34:33] >> Okay, talk about that. Talk about the
[00:34:35] foreign money because you've mentioned
[00:34:36] Singum now a couple of times. There was
[00:34:37] a New York Post article not long ago
[00:34:39] talking about Neville Singum uh who's
[00:34:42] based I think in in China. uh tell us
[00:34:45] what you have what your research has
[00:34:46] uncovered about this foreign money
[00:34:48] making its way to American protests that
[00:34:51] often harm our law enforcement officers.
[00:34:53] >> Sure. So Neville Roy Singham he's an
[00:34:55] American citizen. He's an avowed
[00:34:56] Marxist. Uh you'd think and he he made
[00:34:59] nearly a billion dollars roughly a
[00:35:01] decade ago selling his tech company. Uh
[00:35:04] you know one of the funds that purchased
[00:35:06] the tech company had Chinese sovereign
[00:35:08] wealth uh money in it. And uh once he
[00:35:11] sold that company again got close to $1
[00:35:13] billion dollar he now uses that money to
[00:35:16] fund a variety of uh protest riot
[00:35:20] anti-semitic protests the pro- Hamas
[00:35:22] things in New York he funded the LA
[00:35:24] riots uh earlier this year. Uh and so he
[00:35:27] lives in China's proc
[00:35:31] uh and he's he's uh you know not done.
[00:35:34] He's also got very close ties to the
[00:35:35] communists in Cuba. finances trips uh
[00:35:39] for American groups who go down to Cuba
[00:35:41] to receive Marxist revolutionary
[00:35:43] training. They come back here and then
[00:35:45] they operate on the ground. Uh famously
[00:35:48] one of the groups in Salt Lake City, the
[00:35:49] Armed Queers of Salt Lake City, they
[00:35:51] went down to Cuba and got one of these
[00:35:53] trips. Uh they're also very anti-ICE and
[00:35:56] and working on these uh anti- ice
[00:35:58] demonstrations.
[00:35:59] >> So, let me just make sure I understand.
[00:36:00] You're telling me that protest, quote
[00:36:03] unquote, protest activity we've seen in
[00:36:05] Los Angeles, we've seen in Minnesota,
[00:36:08] we've seen in other places that often
[00:36:09] turns violent, that some of this, maybe
[00:36:11] much of it is funded by overseas money,
[00:36:14] including by this individual who has
[00:36:16] ties to the Chinese Communist Party.
[00:36:17] Have I got that right?
[00:36:18] >> Yeah, that's right. You can see on the
[00:36:19] uh on a lot of the placers when you see
[00:36:21] all these placers roll out, party for
[00:36:22] socialism and liberation, other groups
[00:36:25] like that uh the Democratic Socialists
[00:36:27] of America. Uh these are not organic
[00:36:30] spontaneous. They got thousands and
[00:36:31] thousands of signs that get pointed out.
[00:36:33] Those are all within the sim uh Singum
[00:36:35] network.
[00:36:35] >> But let me just finish with this. You
[00:36:37] mentioned another major source of of
[00:36:39] foreign money. Tell us about that.
[00:36:41] >> Yeah. Uh Hans York, he's a Swiss
[00:36:43] billionaire. He uh the New York Times
[00:36:44] reported this. He's one of the largest
[00:36:46] funders of the Arabella network of
[00:36:49] funds. He pledged to give $200 million
[00:36:51] to uh electing people in the United
[00:36:53] States. Many people have wondered how is
[00:36:55] a foreigner allowed to fund political
[00:36:58] operations. Uh thus far has escaped, you
[00:37:00] know, there's been some investigations,
[00:37:02] but not enough.
[00:37:04] >> Uh this is exactly the kind of thing
[00:37:06] that Alexander Hamilton all those years
[00:37:08] ago warned about when he warned about
[00:37:10] the danger of foreign influence and
[00:37:11] foreign adversaries in our elections.
[00:37:14] and we're seeing it play out in real
[00:37:15] time. Senator Kim, I'll turn it over to
[00:37:17] you.
[00:37:17] >> Yeah, thank you, Chairman. Um, Mr.
[00:37:19] Bronner, I just want to pick up here.
[00:37:20] Um, how many people have been pro
[00:37:23] protesting in the streets in M in
[00:37:25] Minnesota?
[00:37:26] >> Uh, depending on the day, uh, you know,
[00:37:28] I'd refer to Senator Coran, but dozens,
[00:37:31] possibly hundreds,
[00:37:33] >> dozens or possibly hundreds of people
[00:37:35] are protesting in the streets of
[00:37:37] Minnesota. Is that what you're saying?
[00:37:38] Does that sound right to you, State
[00:37:40] Senator Corin?
[00:37:43] >> Um, thank you. I' I'd uh respond
[00:37:45] thousands so thousands of them and there
[00:37:47] are variety of groups. So those at the
[00:37:49] national level which were just discussed
[00:37:51] those at our homebased in Minnesota as
[00:37:53] well as all of those that have been
[00:37:55] encouraged by our leadership
[00:37:56] >> of those thousands how many do you
[00:37:59] believe are uh just doing this on their
[00:38:02] own or do you really think that the
[00:38:03] majority if not most of them are
[00:38:05] actually coordinating the way that Mr.
[00:38:07] Broner was talking about? I think
[00:38:08] there's a variety. There's a three tiers
[00:38:10] again. Those that are national and
[00:38:12] global as I just described, those that
[00:38:14] are have ties based in Minnesota
[00:38:16] coordinating with the national efforts
[00:38:17] and then those that are homegrown that
[00:38:19] just residents that have been encouraged
[00:38:21] I mentioned earlier they're they talk
[00:38:23] that they've trained 30,000
[00:38:25] uh Minnesota residents to be observers
[00:38:27] and to engage and impede federal law
[00:38:29] enforcement.
[00:38:30] >> Yeah. Look, I I I just want to say that
[00:38:32] I I just strongly disagree with how
[00:38:35] you've been categorizing this and
[00:38:37] talking about this. And it's not just
[00:38:39] people in Minnesota. People all over
[00:38:41] this country are frustrated and
[00:38:43] concerned and upset. They're scared and
[00:38:46] they're worried about things because
[00:38:48] they just saw two American citizens get
[00:38:50] killed in the street by federal agents.
[00:38:53] And I, you know, I just had a town hall
[00:38:55] in New Jersey this weekend and the like
[00:38:58] the idea that people will be uh saying
[00:39:00] that this type of anger and this type of
[00:39:03] of outrage whether in New Jersey or in
[00:39:05] Minnesota is being predominantly
[00:39:07] coordinated in this type of way. I I
[00:39:09] just had to say is delegitimizing the
[00:39:12] anger and and the uh fear that people
[00:39:16] are facing right now. So I just had to
[00:39:19] say you the way in which it's been
[00:39:20] described in terms of you know or the
[00:39:23] majority of the protesters are talking
[00:39:25] about this you know in that kind of way
[00:39:27] I just think is very dangerous right now
[00:39:29] and I hope that we can still say and
[00:39:32] recognize that there are a lot of people
[00:39:35] a lot of people that are furious right
[00:39:38] now and worried and I just wanted to be
[00:39:41] able to push back on what I've been
[00:39:43] hearing to go back to the topic of this
[00:39:46] hearing in in the broader vein on the
[00:39:48] examining fraud. U I I guess I wanted to
[00:39:50] I guess I wanted to just start here. Uh
[00:39:51] just start here. Uh Mr. Hedler Goddette,
[00:39:53] Mr. Hedler Goddette, you talked about
[00:39:55] you talked about this in terms of you
[00:39:56] this in terms of you know this is not
[00:39:58] know this is not episodic, right? You
[00:39:59] episodic, right? You said it's not
[00:40:00] said it's not unique in terms of fraud
[00:40:00] unique in terms of fraud happening just
[00:40:02] happening just in one state. This is
[00:40:03] in one state. This is something I think
[00:40:04] something I think we can all uh say with
[00:40:05] we can all uh say with confidence is
[00:40:07] confidence is happened in every single
[00:40:08] happened in every single state. Is that
[00:40:10] state. Is that correct?
[00:40:10] correct?
[00:40:11] >> Yes.
[00:40:11] >> Yes.
[00:40:12] >> Uh Mr. Talov, is that similar in your
[00:40:12] >> Uh Mr. Talov, is that similar in your
[00:40:15] mindset too? on the examining fraud. U I
[00:40:15] mindset too? Yes, Senator.
[00:40:18] >> Now, you talked about it, Mr. Talov, as
[00:40:20] a persistent vulnerability and not
[00:40:22] episodic in that type of way. I want to
[00:40:24] kind of go through some of the tools
[00:40:26] that we have to try to address this. Uh,
[00:40:28] for let's start with the Government
[00:40:30] Accountability Office, GAO. Uh, as far
[00:40:33] as I can tell, the some of the stats are
[00:40:35] saying it's saved $1.45 trillion since
[00:40:39] uh 2002. Uh, Mr. Talov, does that sound
[00:40:43] about right? I mean, not the specific
[00:40:45] number, but has it saved the taxpayers a
[00:40:48] lot of money in that way?
[00:40:49] >> They definitely have saved some money,
[00:40:52] but not to the full extent of the fraud
[00:40:54] that's taking place.
[00:40:55] >> Oh, certainly not. No, I mean, this is
[00:40:57] just one tool that we have at our
[00:40:58] disposal in that way. So, I guess I
[00:41:00] would just ask you, do you see
[00:41:02] importance in supporting the G in the
[00:41:04] GAO? I I think the GAOs are very the GAO
[00:41:07] is very important as part of the
[00:41:09] process, but part of the challenge has
[00:41:11] been their recommendations
[00:41:13] tend not to be followed. In fact, there
[00:41:14] was an article in yesterday's Wall
[00:41:16] Street Journal talking about the TANF
[00:41:20] program. 165 recommendations were made.
[00:41:23] 65 were critical. Zero of those
[00:41:26] recommendations for the past 10 years
[00:41:28] have been followed up on. So, so the
[00:41:31] concern that you have is actually that
[00:41:33] their recommendations are not being
[00:41:34] followed up. Do you have any reason to
[00:41:36] believe that GIO is working in a
[00:41:38] partisan way?
[00:41:39] >> No.
[00:41:40] >> Uh I guess I just wanted to follow up on
[00:41:42] this in part because our current
[00:41:44] >> [snorts]
[00:41:44] >> uh OM director Russell Vote said that he
[00:41:48] doesn't think that GAO should exist. Do
[00:41:50] you agree with that assessment?
[00:41:52] >> Yeah. Uh not not my Bailey Wick.
[00:41:55] >> Not your Bailey Wick. uh Republicans in
[00:41:57] the House of Representatives uh proposed
[00:41:59] cutting GAO by 50% last year. Do you
[00:42:03] think a 50% cut to GAO would hurt their
[00:42:06] ability in terms of being able to shine
[00:42:08] a light on fraud in our government?
[00:42:11] >> Yeah. the the most important thing that
[00:42:13] can happen right now if we're serious
[00:42:15] about saving a trillion dollars annually
[00:42:19] is to allow the states to start sharing
[00:42:22] data and to go through the four
[00:42:24] recommendations that I had front-end
[00:42:26] identity verification.
[00:42:28] >> I agree with a lot of your
[00:42:29] recommendations on that front. I'm just
[00:42:30] trying to get a sense of all of our
[00:42:32] different tools so we can get back to
[00:42:33] that. But Mr. Hetler got I guess I want
[00:42:36] to ask you those same questions. Do you
[00:42:38] agree uh or do you disagree with Russell
[00:42:40] Vot's suggestion that we get rid of the
[00:42:42] GAO?
[00:42:44] >> I emphatically disagree.
[00:42:45] >> Do you have a problem with Republicans
[00:42:48] in the House trying to cut GAO by 50%.
[00:42:51] >> I have a problem with anyone messing
[00:42:52] with GAO. I'm a staunch GAO defender, be
[00:42:54] they Republican or Democrat. Yeah, look,
[00:42:56] I I I think you know just in in these
[00:42:58] broad tools that we have, you know, we
[00:43:00] have GAO and I hope that we can in a
[00:43:02] bipartisan way think through how we can
[00:43:05] use these tools, how we can support them
[00:43:06] going forward in our efforts if we are
[00:43:09] seriously and earnestly trying to
[00:43:11] address fraud. Also, when it comes to
[00:43:13] inspector generals, and I think that
[00:43:14] that's something that we've seen a lot
[00:43:16] of challenge on here as we saw
[00:43:18] immediately President Trump come in and
[00:43:21] and get rid of 17 inspector generals.
[00:43:24] Mr. Hler got uh does that concern you in
[00:43:27] terms of how he has dismissed inspector
[00:43:29] generals in his time in the office so
[00:43:31] far?
[00:43:32] >> It's is deeply concerning. Not only is
[00:43:34] it antithetical to any serious effort to
[00:43:36] root out waste fraud and abuse, but it's
[00:43:38] also unlawful in many cases. So, it's
[00:43:40] it's kind of got two dimensions of
[00:43:41] problematicness there.
[00:43:42] >> Yeah. Look, a number of these different
[00:43:44] efforts, but Mr. Talov, I agree with you
[00:43:46] in terms of uh the data and the efforts
[00:43:49] we can do on that front. So I guess I
[00:43:51] just wanted to ask you, you know, what
[00:43:52] are actions that Congress can take to
[00:43:54] fix the gaps in data transparency and
[00:43:57] make it easier for us to follow where
[00:43:58] the dollars are going?
[00:44:00] >> So So the first thing I'd recommend if
[00:44:02] if I was in your seat is to allow the
[00:44:07] death master file to be shared to the
[00:44:10] different federal agencies. That has
[00:44:11] been an outstanding issue for 10 years.
[00:44:14] And that's why you see so many quote
[00:44:16] unquote deceased recipients in the
[00:44:18] benefit programs. The other part that I
[00:44:22] would um strongly recommend is
[00:44:24] thirdparty audits. Too many times now
[00:44:28] you see in government the audits are
[00:44:30] being conducted by the individuals that
[00:44:33] have responsibilities for the program.
[00:44:36] Um like Lexus, we have a third party
[00:44:38] auditor that checks our books. I think
[00:44:40] there needs to be third-party auditors
[00:44:42] going in and checking. And I think if
[00:44:45] you do those things, you can take the
[00:44:47] fraud rate down from 20% in government
[00:44:50] down to 3%.
[00:44:52] >> Uh, thank you, Chairman. I'll yield
[00:44:53] back.
[00:44:55] >> Senator Scott.
[00:44:56] >> Thank you, Chairman. Uh, thanks for this
[00:44:58] hearing. I want to thank each of you for
[00:44:59] being here. So, when you travel around
[00:45:01] Florida, people are fed up with
[00:45:03] government in a lot of ways. It's all
[00:45:05] because of fraud. I mean, they're just
[00:45:06] sick. They sitting there pay their taxes
[00:45:08] and they get sick and tired and they
[00:45:10] read these stories about money being
[00:45:11] wasted. Um the it's something I I had to
[00:45:15] fight when I was governor of Florida and
[00:45:16] I fought about it since I've been up
[00:45:18] here. Estimates show that up to 10% it's
[00:45:21] probably way more than that. Federal
[00:45:23] spending is on fraud, waste, and abuse.
[00:45:24] Just in Minnesota with the res recent
[00:45:26] revelations, the administration
[00:45:28] estimates at least $19 billion in fraud
[00:45:30] and it's probably more than that. So, I
[00:45:32] think this everybody that pays their
[00:45:34] taxes, you know, should be furious about
[00:45:36] this. Uh, we're supposed to be the
[00:45:38] stewards of taxpayer dollars. It's a
[00:45:40] betrayal of the American taxpayer by the
[00:45:41] people responsible for overseeing those
[00:45:43] programs and their taxpayer dollars. I
[00:45:45] agree with you. We ought to do audits. I
[00:45:46] ran public companies. Uh, I ran private
[00:45:49] companies. Guess what? They were all
[00:45:50] audited. We had outside groups that
[00:45:52] audited how we did to make sure and they
[00:45:54] gave us recommendations how we could
[00:45:56] improve every year. Um, it's also a
[00:45:58] betrayal for the families who are who
[00:46:00] the funding was intended to actually
[00:46:01] help who might be left without a safety
[00:46:04] net because of these fraudsters. Um,
[00:46:06] because the federal government's been so
[00:46:07] easy to steal money from. Um, I've been
[00:46:11] uh I'm introducing my SNAP data
[00:46:13] transparency and oversight act this
[00:46:15] week. It's going to hold states
[00:46:16] accountable from sheltering frauders by
[00:46:18] requiring, it's real simple, requiring
[00:46:20] states receiving SNAP funding to provide
[00:46:22] recipient data to the USDA when
[00:46:24] requested. pretty basic. Federal
[00:46:27] government puts the money up. We got to
[00:46:28] get the data. Uh I think this bill just
[00:46:31] is the start. We need to figure out
[00:46:32] exactly how the fraud occurred, where
[00:46:34] every single tax dollar is going, why,
[00:46:36] and we got to hold people accountable.
[00:46:39] Um I I I remember when I became governor
[00:46:41] of Florida in January 2011, people were
[00:46:44] telling me that they knew there was
[00:46:45] fraud in the unemployment program and
[00:46:47] they weren't going after the people that
[00:46:48] they knew were committing fraud. Like,
[00:46:51] how was that? How are you being a
[00:46:52] fiduciary to the taxpayer if you're you
[00:46:54] know there's fraud and you're not
[00:46:56] holding people accountable? Um so I
[00:46:59] think I think we've got to hold um we
[00:47:01] got to hold the people in Minnesota
[00:47:02] accountable California all across the
[00:47:04] country. Um so Senator as a member of
[00:47:07] the Minnesota Senate you have experience
[00:47:08] with fraud prevention and detection in
[00:47:10] programs like unemployment insurance
[00:47:13] Medicaid disaster relief and others.
[00:47:15] It's clear fraud has become a s systemic
[00:47:17] problem for the Waltz administration. Uh
[00:47:20] I was governor of Florida. Uh, it's hard
[00:47:21] to believe that as a governor of the
[00:47:23] state, he had no idea it was handing out
[00:47:25] money to such blatant scammers and that
[00:47:28] billions of dollars could be stolen
[00:47:30] continuously, not just once, over and
[00:47:33] over with what looks like zero
[00:47:35] accountability. Uh, so since the scandal
[00:47:37] has been unveiled, what has the
[00:47:39] Minnesota government, what has the
[00:47:41] governor, the Minnesota government done
[00:47:42] actually any what have they done to halt
[00:47:45] uh the fraudulent payments?
[00:47:47] >> Well, thank you. The uh the governor has
[00:47:48] done very little. I think he's promoted
[00:47:50] uh and created a uh ZAR a fraudzar and
[00:47:54] under the department of public safety
[00:47:56] and it was just a recent article that
[00:47:57] came out and he's done nothing since
[00:47:59] that started. Um, we have put he has put
[00:48:02] a hold on those 14 just 14 of the
[00:48:05] suspected programs which received
[00:48:07] Medicaid funding and and some of those
[00:48:09] Medicaid funding programs like housing
[00:48:11] support services and autism um were
[00:48:14] based on the federal investigators in
[00:48:16] Minnesota have de deemed that 90% of
[00:48:19] that was entirely fraud. Each of those
[00:48:22] programs, just those two programs are
[00:48:23] about $800 million of taxpayer dollars
[00:48:26] that are being stolen. And so they have
[00:48:28] taken a little action. Unfortunately,
[00:48:30] they're so horribly ineffective that
[00:48:32] even the good providers are caught up in
[00:48:35] there and and they're they're willing to
[00:48:37] open their kimono. All good providers
[00:48:38] are willing to open their kimono and be
[00:48:39] audited. They're not even able to do
[00:48:41] that. And when you talk about the level
[00:48:43] of fraud, we all agree it touches the
[00:48:45] pocketbook, but it's stealing from the
[00:48:47] most needy in in the in the state and in
[00:48:49] the country. And we're not talk, we're
[00:48:51] only talking about the stuff that rises
[00:48:53] to the level that we be criminally pro
[00:48:54] prosecuted, not that which is uh wasted
[00:48:58] by swimming through the lane of
[00:48:59] government ineffectiveness. That's
[00:49:01] exponent exponentially greater than what
[00:49:03] we're talking about here today. [snorts]
[00:49:05] So we have a big challenge to solve. One
[00:49:07] of the pieces that I would argue would
[00:49:08] be um I think the the advice was good
[00:49:11] that you've heard so far, but in
[00:49:13] Minnesota between one and three elements
[00:49:15] of eligibility when you're looking or
[00:49:17] applying for benefits. It's a county
[00:49:19] based system in Minnesota is uh is a is
[00:49:22] proven based on a self addestation. I
[00:49:24] think our federal government should
[00:49:25] eliminate self addestations.
[00:49:28] So, so has has Governor Waltz has he or
[00:49:31] the attorney general has has any
[00:49:33] company, any person been prosecuted?
[00:49:36] >> Uh, there have been uh not very few
[00:49:40] based on our attorney general and fraud
[00:49:42] that's discovered by our state agencies.
[00:49:44] Almost exclusively everything you see in
[00:49:46] the headlines today is because of our
[00:49:47] federal government came in under the
[00:49:49] feeding our future program. the $500
[00:49:52] million in in and which has which has
[00:49:54] only had about $330 million charged and
[00:49:57] prosecuted uh nine I think almost 100
[00:50:01] charged and some 60 have been convicted.
[00:50:04] That is just the beginning of the
[00:50:06] discovery all of those other Medicaid
[00:50:08] programs and their financial discovery.
[00:50:11] They've discovered all of the other
[00:50:13] fraud in the tentacles because it's
[00:50:14] coming from the very same providers.
[00:50:17] >> So in your state are the taxpayers okay
[00:50:19] with fraud? They're uh I think you've
[00:50:21] seen Governor Walls is no longer uh
[00:50:23] running for his reelection. They're
[00:50:26] upset, but they're just learning about
[00:50:27] it. When Governor Walls pranced on the
[00:50:29] stage in the in the presidential
[00:50:31] election is when motans started to
[00:50:33] realize or not realize, but when our
[00:50:35] local media was kind of forced to cover
[00:50:38] the actions that have actually taken
[00:50:40] place under his administration.
[00:50:42] >> So no fraud is the victimless crime. At
[00:50:44] the end of the day, it's hardworking
[00:50:45] American taxpayers in your state.
[00:50:46] Minnesota taxpayers paying their local
[00:50:48] taxes, their state taxes, and federal
[00:50:50] taxes who suffer from fraudulent
[00:50:52] activity. Um, how have legitimate
[00:50:56] providers and families in Minnesota seen
[00:50:58] reduced services, delayed payments,
[00:50:59] entitled rules that make it harder for
[00:51:01] honest people to get help because of
[00:51:03] this fraud?
[00:51:04] >> Yeah, we've heard we've got stories all
[00:51:05] over the state of good providers that
[00:51:07] are providing critical services and the
[00:51:09] delays even in a legitimate autism
[00:51:12] service provider was just highlighted
[00:51:13] this week. quarter million dollar a week
[00:51:15] in payroll and they've delayed it for 90
[00:51:18] days, payments for 90 days and they only
[00:51:20] plan to roll it out in a limited
[00:51:22] environment. Many of the critical
[00:51:23] services and providers that actually are
[00:51:25] doing the work may go under and leave
[00:51:28] leave um a huge portion of our
[00:51:30] population unserved.
[00:51:31] >> Mr. Talov, as we know, a simple visit to
[00:51:33] these fraudulent businesses in Minnesota
[00:51:35] revealed that are not real businesses.
[00:51:37] Can you explain how weak identity
[00:51:39] verification and self-certification
[00:51:40] systems like the one we ones we've seen
[00:51:42] in Minnesota and the senator just talked
[00:51:44] about are a common vulnerability that
[00:51:46] criminals abuse across unemployment
[00:51:48] insurance, SBA loans, SNAP, Medicaid and
[00:51:50] other major federal programs.
[00:51:53] >> This happens
[00:51:55] >> this happens in all 50 states, Senator.
[00:51:58] And it starts with the Secretary of
[00:52:00] State and how the businesses are
[00:52:02] registered. You can go on to any of your
[00:52:04] state web portals, enter in any name you
[00:52:07] want for a business. As long as it
[00:52:09] doesn't impact a copyright, it's set up.
[00:52:12] And what the criminals do is they take
[00:52:14] those shell companies and then they
[00:52:16] create fake employees. They create fake
[00:52:19] services and they deliver fake services,
[00:52:22] yet they're stealing real taxpayer
[00:52:24] dollars.
[00:52:25] >> Right. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman.
[00:52:28] >> Thank you, Senator Scott. Now, I
[00:52:30] understand that Senator Johnson has
[00:52:32] agreed to let Senator Moreno that's
[00:52:34] that's extraordinary. That's
[00:52:38] >> okay. Very good. Senator Mareno, you're
[00:52:40] recognized.
[00:52:40] >> Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you
[00:52:42] for allowing me to be in the
[00:52:43] subcommittee uh hearing. Uh Mr. Tob,
[00:52:45] I'll start with you. Um at the beginning
[00:52:47] of the session, I came over and uh
[00:52:49] introduced myself and shook your hand.
[00:52:51] >> You did.
[00:52:52] >> If I had stolen $4,000 out of your
[00:52:54] pocket, uh would you hunt me down like a
[00:52:56] wild animal?
[00:52:58] I I think it'd be my wife that would go
[00:53:00] at you pretty hard. Yeah.
[00:53:01] >> Well, that's what the taxpayers are
[00:53:02] losing in this country every single year
[00:53:04] to fraud. Think about that. Every single
[00:53:07] person who pays income taxes in this
[00:53:09] country is getting robbed $4,000.
[00:53:13] And when we sit here in Washington DC
[00:53:15] and we say all this technical
[00:53:16] conversations and we say, "Well, it's
[00:53:19] just it's not just Minnesota. This
[00:53:21] happens everywhere." As if that's okay.
[00:53:24] In the business world, they call that
[00:53:25] institutional rot. when you can't even
[00:53:28] realize how bad your actions are because
[00:53:31] it's not our money. If it were our
[00:53:34] money, we wouldn't even accept, you
[00:53:36] wouldn't accept $4,000. We're accepting
[00:53:38] by estimates half a trillion dollars
[00:53:42] every single year. So, you mentioned Mr.
[00:53:45] Taco and I'm picking on you because you
[00:53:46] said that what the American people want
[00:53:49] is the kindness and generosity of a
[00:53:51] nation. Is that correct? You said that.
[00:53:54] >> But they actually got stupidity and
[00:53:55] corruption. Isn't that more accurate?
[00:53:57] >> They are not getting what they paid for.
[00:53:59] >> They voted for kindness and generosity
[00:54:01] and got stupidity and corruption. And
[00:54:03] and uh Mr. Mr. Corin, I'd ask you over
[00:54:06] in Minnesota because obviously we're
[00:54:07] talking about your state here. Just a
[00:54:10] simple outsiders point of view here. The
[00:54:14] federal government gave Minnesota a lot
[00:54:15] of money.
[00:54:16] >> Gives every state a lot of money. So I
[00:54:18] would say this to my colleague from New
[00:54:19] Jersey. Why would we not have the state
[00:54:24] be on the hook for the money that was
[00:54:26] lost in fraud? Like if I handed you
[00:54:28] money and said, "Hey, spend this to do X
[00:54:31] and you wasted it. You allowed people to
[00:54:33] steal it." Why would we not charge the
[00:54:36] state that money and say, "Hey, look, we
[00:54:38] gave you the money. You lost $12
[00:54:40] billion. We're just you owe it to the
[00:54:42] federal government. Why not give them a
[00:54:43] big fat IOU?" Senator, that's our
[00:54:45] greatest concern with the actions of the
[00:54:47] of the governor and their their uh his
[00:54:49] administration just in the feeding our
[00:54:51] future. That was $500 million. Well, we
[00:54:54] charged 330 million of it. But we
[00:54:56] haven't been able to prove any of the
[00:54:57] $500 million fed Minnesota children.
[00:55:01] >> But but again, I get all that, but why
[00:55:04] wouldn't we just tell Minnesota you you
[00:55:07] owe us the money that you did not use
[00:55:09] the way we asked you to use it?
[00:55:11] >> Senator, that's our greatest concern.
[00:55:12] Our spending in Minnesota is 30 35% of
[00:55:15] all our spending. 45 billion dollars are
[00:55:17] federal dollars every one for one in
[00:55:19] every three dollars spent.
[00:55:21] >> But maybe if the taxpayers of Minnesota
[00:55:23] felt it, they'd stop electing idiots
[00:55:24] like their current governor and the
[00:55:26] current mayor. They would make changes.
[00:55:29] But right now, there's really no
[00:55:30] accountability. So I'll I'll switch over
[00:55:31] to you, Mr. Bruner. I have a bill called
[00:55:33] the Stop Act. It says if somebody
[00:55:35] anybody is on any kind of social welfare
[00:55:38] program, so rent assistance, finance
[00:55:39] assistance, food stamps, whatever menu
[00:55:42] of uh liberal wish list programs that
[00:55:44] that uh that are created that people are
[00:55:46] on, you cannot send a single solitary
[00:55:48] scent outside the United States. Does
[00:55:50] that seem logical and common sense?
[00:55:54] >> That's very common sense.
[00:55:56] >> What uh type of instrument would have to
[00:55:57] hit your head for you to think that that
[00:55:59] wasn't common sense?
[00:56:01] >> I don't know. You'd have to be
[00:56:02] benefiting pretty big from the fraud.
[00:56:04] >> Right. Right. Right. Because you'd say,
[00:56:06] well, if the US taxpayer is giving
[00:56:07] somebody who's down and out money,
[00:56:09] right, we're covering you. Why would you
[00:56:12] then have that person send money outside
[00:56:14] the country? That doesn't make any
[00:56:16] sense, right?
[00:56:17] >> No. And it's billions of dollars.
[00:56:20] >> And Mr. Heather God, you said something
[00:56:21] that's I think things that are and I
[00:56:24] don't know that you meant to say it. I
[00:56:25] don't know. You seemed like a good
[00:56:26] person, but you said something that I
[00:56:29] think is something I would ask all my
[00:56:31] colleagues to reflect on because we
[00:56:33] accept these kinds of statements as
[00:56:34] normal. You said obviously you don't
[00:56:37] like the Doge effort. That was crystal
[00:56:39] clear. It wasn't it. You weren't
[00:56:40] ambiguous on your feelings towards Doge,
[00:56:43] but you said it only saved $215 billion.
[00:56:48] Do you have $215 billion?
[00:56:52] >> No. I mean, that's a lot of money. Like
[00:56:54] if all of a sudden you woke up tomorrow
[00:56:56] morning and somebody gave you $215
[00:56:58] billion,
[00:56:59] um, man, be a pretty good day. And by
[00:57:02] the way, let's say that's wrong. Let's
[00:57:03] say that they miscounted and Elon didn't
[00:57:07] do the math right. Let's say it's 10x
[00:57:09] wrong.
[00:57:11] $21 billion. I take $21 billion. Let's
[00:57:14] say they're a hundred times wrong. It's
[00:57:16] still $2 billion. And I think the the
[00:57:19] commentary I think we have to do and I
[00:57:20] think Mr. Chairman, I think what we have
[00:57:22] to really realize as elected officials
[00:57:25] where maybe we spend too much time here
[00:57:28] and not enough time actually talking to
[00:57:30] normal Americans.
[00:57:33] People who pay taxes don't expect us to
[00:57:37] put up with that kind of fraud, waste,
[00:57:38] and ab abuse. This is the the second, I
[00:57:42] think, or third hearing we've had in the
[00:57:44] greater committee around waste, fraud,
[00:57:46] and abuse. We had the GAO here and the
[00:57:48] head of the GAO
[00:57:50] basically said, "Hey, this has been
[00:57:52] going on so long, we've wasted three to
[00:57:54] four trillion dollar, which is a number
[00:57:56] none of us can comprehend. By the way,
[00:57:58] we don't even know what a trillion is.
[00:58:01] We know that it would be an obscene
[00:58:03] amount of money." But the way we have
[00:58:06] almost disdain for the taxpayer, where
[00:58:09] we normalize this, where we say things
[00:58:11] like, "Well, let's not pick on
[00:58:12] Minnesota. Everybody does fraud.
[00:58:16] If if we don't actually deliver
[00:58:19] substantive changes to the American
[00:58:21] people where very soon Republicans and
[00:58:24] Democrats get together and say we're
[00:58:26] going to actually structurally fix this
[00:58:28] problem, there's going to be
[00:58:29] accountability because quite frankly,
[00:58:31] I'll go back to I'll end where I started
[00:58:33] with you, Mr. Talov. If I walked over to
[00:58:35] you and took $4,000 out of your pocket,
[00:58:40] you would leave this hearing and chase
[00:58:43] me down like a wild animal.
[00:58:45] And yet for us, we're like, well, it's
[00:58:47] only $4,000.
[00:58:49] >> Yeah.
[00:58:50] >> That kind of would you ever imagine
[00:58:52] saying something like that?
[00:58:53] >> No. No, sir.
[00:58:55] >> So, I I hope what comes out of this is
[00:58:57] concrete steps says we just will not put
[00:59:01] up with one cent of waste, fraud, and
[00:59:05] abuse in our programs. And I hope part
[00:59:07] of it is this accountability of the
[00:59:08] states because the federal government
[00:59:09] doesn't administer these programs. the
[00:59:12] states do give the states who are doing
[00:59:14] a good job like when Senator Scott was
[00:59:16] the governor of Florida, they do a great
[00:59:17] job. Give them motivation and then
[00:59:20] absolutely
[00:59:22] uh hold the states that are ripping us
[00:59:24] off which is what they're doing and hold
[00:59:26] them accountable and have their voters
[00:59:28] understand that Missouri,
[00:59:31] Wisconsin, Ohio, I hope New Jersey
[00:59:34] doesn't want to pay for Minnesota's
[00:59:36] crap. That's what our voters tell me
[00:59:39] every single day. Mr. Mr. Chairman,
[00:59:40] thank you for having this hearing.
[00:59:42] >> Senator Johnson.
[00:59:43] >> Hi, Mr. Chairman.
[00:59:46] Let let me try and tie together what I
[00:59:48] think is some pretty extraordinary
[00:59:49] testimony here to to really
[00:59:52] get to what is going on here, the
[00:59:54] political aspect of the fraud of making
[00:59:57] people dependent on government to keep
[01:00:00] one political party in power. So, I was
[01:00:03] shocked by recent revelation. I'd never
[01:00:06] known this before. St. Federal Reserve
[01:00:09] actually tracks the assets of
[01:00:11] non-governmental organizations, NOS's.
[01:00:14] $14.1 trillion is the latest estimate.
[01:00:18] $14.1
[01:00:20] trillion. Now let me because we don't
[01:00:23] have enough time to go through this
[01:00:24] whole thing but
[01:00:26] during the open borders of the bid
[01:00:29] administration we heard repeatedly that
[01:00:31] there were no operating in the Dorian
[01:00:33] gap facilitating
[01:00:36] and welcoming people that they then
[01:00:38] funneled up into America. millions of
[01:00:41] people coming to this country illegally
[01:00:44] generally into oftenimes being funneled
[01:00:47] into blue states into sanctuary cities
[01:00:49] sanctuary states. Now Mr. Bruno what
[01:00:52] you're talking about is these groups
[01:00:56] being funded
[01:00:59] by groups like Soros and Arabella
[01:01:07] to what? to stabilize our political
[01:01:09] situation to to turn America into one
[01:01:12] party state.
[01:01:15] M tell tell me what your testimony is
[01:01:17] all about here.
[01:01:18] >> Yeah, thank you, Senator. That's exactly
[01:01:19] right. I mean it's to uh to create a
[01:01:22] political benefit by bringing in so in
[01:01:25] the uh case of California there are
[01:01:28] estimates that range to up to 13
[01:01:31] representatives just through aortionment
[01:01:32] not even taking into consideration voter
[01:01:35] fraud and uh illegal migrants who make
[01:01:37] it onto the voter roles which we know
[01:01:39] happens uh through just so just through
[01:01:41] aortionment you're talking about 13
[01:01:43] members in the house who shouldn't be
[01:01:45] there if they if it weren't for all of
[01:01:47] these millions of migrants under Biden.
[01:01:49] So that's one that's a political
[01:01:50] benefit.
[01:01:51] >> The ranking member made a statement that
[01:01:52] people are furious about what we're
[01:01:56] seeing in Minneapolis. You know what
[01:01:57] they're not furious about is where ICE
[01:01:59] is doing what ICE has always done under
[01:02:02] the Obama administration, under the
[01:02:03] Clinton administration, under the B
[01:02:04] administration, where where they
[01:02:06] actually enforce our laws and they get
[01:02:08] cooperation from state and local
[01:02:10] governments.
[01:02:11] Literally Trump is behind deportations
[01:02:15] and removals and returns from Clinton,
[01:02:18] Obama, and Biden. But all of a sudden
[01:02:20] now the public is furious. Why
[01:02:25] is it because NOS's are funding
[01:02:29] the 30,000 trained observers? I'd call
[01:02:32] them activists who are some some of them
[01:02:35] are actually shooting at ICE officers,
[01:02:37] right? They're ramming their vehicles
[01:02:39] into their vehicles. They've they throw
[01:02:41] rocks at them. One of them actually
[01:02:43] showed up with a semi-automatic pistol
[01:02:46] with multiple clips of ammunition.
[01:02:49] Correct. So, ICE officers obviously on
[01:02:51] hair trigger alert and these government
[01:02:54] officials, is this correct, Senator Kin,
[01:02:57] that that your lieutenant governor was
[01:02:59] managing the signal chat site
[01:03:03] >> following that was following ICE
[01:03:05] enforcement actions and and deploying
[01:03:07] their observers to the to the scene.
[01:03:09] >> We haven't been able to verify that. The
[01:03:11] lieutenant governor has, but she's
[01:03:12] overtly made those statements as as our
[01:03:14] governor has. Get out there and go
[01:03:16] interfere and and block them. one
[01:03:18] representative Tabki has been in those
[01:03:21] chats and actively promoting them.
[01:03:23] >> So those groups th those officials that
[01:03:26] are training these observers and then
[01:03:28] encourage them to put themselves into
[01:03:30] harm's way,
[01:03:32] right? To to obstruct law enforcement.
[01:03:36] Who's really responsible for the fact
[01:03:38] that they got hurt? Again, I would never
[01:03:41] encourage my supporters to go obstruct
[01:03:43] justice. Put yourself in harm's way.
[01:03:46] I I won't go I won't go there. Um
[01:03:50] but we need to understand exactly what's
[01:03:52] happened in this country. This isn't
[01:03:54] just this didn't just happen. These
[01:03:56] protests just didn't spring up. Now some
[01:03:59] of the protesters maybe they may be
[01:04:00] coming out and you listening to the pee
[01:04:02] the governor say go record this. But
[01:04:04] these people are trained. Correct Mr.
[01:04:06] Bruner.
[01:04:07] >> Yes Senator
[01:04:09] >> trained and encouraged to do this.
[01:04:12] Mr.
[01:04:14] Telkov, you said that you've calculated
[01:04:17] the fraud about a trillion dollars a
[01:04:19] year.
[01:04:20] >> Yes, sir.
[01:04:21] >> What metric do you use? Because I want I
[01:04:23] want to go to those source. I want to
[01:04:24] figure this out because I that's
[01:04:26] probably a low estimate as well.
[01:04:28] >> Yeah. Well, we have unique access
[01:04:29] because of our position. So, it's uh
[01:04:32] looking at mule networks, identity theft
[01:04:35] rings, foreign IP infrastructure,
[01:04:38] and here's the worst part, especially in
[01:04:41] government, seeing the same identity
[01:04:43] used in all 50 states and not being able
[01:04:47] to do anything about it.
[01:04:49] >> So, again, I I want if you're willing to
[01:04:52] questions for record, I'd like you to
[01:04:53] provide those sources of that data. I'd
[01:04:55] love to see how you've mapped out the
[01:04:57] funding of these organizations. Again, I
[01:04:59] talked about NOS's facilitating the
[01:05:01] Biden open borders. Let's go back to
[01:05:04] what happened with Somalians into
[01:05:06] Minnesota. Were there NOS's that were
[01:05:08] supporting that effort as well? I mean,
[01:05:10] is this the same thing just on a much
[01:05:11] smaller scale? And are we just seeing
[01:05:13] the maturity of it? We just haven't got
[01:05:16] Well, I'm sure we've got to that level
[01:05:17] of fraud in California, but not with
[01:05:19] necessarily with the new immigrants, but
[01:05:22] Senator Kin, what do you you know, who
[01:05:23] facilitated the the Somalians in
[01:05:25] Minnesota? uh motan le uh NOS's as well
[01:05:29] as some national ones. Minnesota has
[01:05:31] been one of the leaders in in we're a
[01:05:34] sanctuary state not legally but we are
[01:05:37] by by the fact that our large metro
[01:05:39] cities are sanctuary cities and you're
[01:05:41] seeing those policies but if I could add
[01:05:42] one piece to it you you've talked about
[01:05:44] kind of what are the motives and we're
[01:05:46] only talking about the violent
[01:05:47] protesters in the or organization and
[01:05:49] coordination but each and every one of
[01:05:51] the dollars when we talk about the fraud
[01:05:53] on the other side the first part of this
[01:05:55] conversation are also feeding that that
[01:05:57] network for political pure political
[01:05:59] gain and eternal power.
[01:06:01] >> So, so Mr. Talov, you also mentioned
[01:06:03] that, you know, the secretaries of state
[01:06:06] facilitate this by allowing people to
[01:06:08] register their businesses. Somebody's
[01:06:10] trained these people to do this, right?
[01:06:12] I mean, I I guess a bunch of people
[01:06:14] could have the same idea. But my guess
[01:06:16] is somebody somehow is being trained to
[01:06:19] go to the Secretary of State, register
[01:06:21] as a business, claim you have all these
[01:06:23] kind of employees, and this is how you
[01:06:24] commit fraud in all these programs. I
[01:06:26] mean, would you dispute that?
[01:06:28] >> No. the the the fundamental issue is
[01:06:31] that when we look at fraud, we look at
[01:06:33] it as a country through a program,
[01:06:34] whether it be EBT, unemployment
[01:06:36] insurance. And what happens is the
[01:06:39] criminals look at it nationally, not
[01:06:43] statewide. And by setting it up the way
[01:06:46] we have it set up, we allow them to
[01:06:48] share their quote unquote sauce. And
[01:06:51] whether it's unemployment insurance
[01:06:53] fraud, EBT fraud, healthc care fraud,
[01:06:56] they share that across the country and
[01:06:58] they work at scale. That's why federal
[01:07:01] law enforcement needs to be engaged in
[01:07:03] these investigations because state and
[01:07:06] local agencies can't handle them. They
[01:07:08] eventually lead back to transnational
[01:07:10] criminals in countries such as Russia,
[01:07:13] China, etc.
[01:07:15] >> And I would argue the reason the GAO,
[01:07:17] and I love them, too. They can do some
[01:07:18] great work, but they're so incredibly
[01:07:20] ineffective. The same thing with IG's.
[01:07:22] They're not actually looking at the true
[01:07:24] perpetrators of of this fraud. It is
[01:07:27] foreign actors. It is transnational
[01:07:29] criminal organizations. It is the
[01:07:30] non-governmental organizations that we
[01:07:32] funnel all this money through and we
[01:07:35] don't track it. I mean, where did they
[01:07:36] get 14.1 trillion worth of assets? Could
[01:07:39] that potentially be taxpayer funds that
[01:07:41] we funneled through them that they were
[01:07:43] supposed to give to some worthy cause
[01:07:45] that they just put in their bank
[01:07:47] account? Is that what's happening here?
[01:07:49] Again, we need to open our eyes. We need
[01:07:51] to understand exactly what's happening
[01:07:52] here. But I think it's these shadow
[01:07:54] groups that the chairman the chairman
[01:07:55] was talking about here. They need to be
[01:07:58] fully investigated and we need to again
[01:08:00] we need to understand exactly what's
[01:08:01] happening. This is far more than a
[01:08:03] couple one officer an outrageous example
[01:08:05] in Minnesota. This is endemic. This is
[01:08:08] persistent and this has cost the
[01:08:10] American taxpayers probably at least a
[01:08:12] trillion out of the $7 trillion we
[01:08:15] overspend every year. Thank you, Mr.
[01:08:16] Chairman.
[01:08:18] >> Thank you, Senator Johnson. Um, Senator
[01:08:20] Corin, let me just come back to you. I I
[01:08:22] want to get a handle here on just the
[01:08:24] scale of the fraud in Minnesota. We
[01:08:26] talked about the dark money groups
[01:08:27] funding much of what's going on on the
[01:08:29] ground, but let's just get a handle here
[01:08:30] on the scale of the fraud. You are a
[01:08:33] member, I want to get this right, of the
[01:08:35] legislative uh the office of the
[01:08:36] legislative auditor. So,
[01:08:39] >> I'm sorry. Go ahead,
[01:08:39] >> Mr. Chair. Of the legislative audit
[01:08:41] commission.
[01:08:42] >> Audit commission. Got you oversee the
[01:08:44] office of the legislative auditor. Okay.
[01:08:45] Got it. So, you've got access to all of
[01:08:47] this information. How give me your best
[01:08:49] estimate based on the information you've
[01:08:51] seen, the audits you've seen, how many
[01:08:52] of the agencies, 20 or so agencies I
[01:08:55] think in the state of Minnesota, public
[01:08:56] agencies, how many have rampant fraud?
[01:08:58] >> Uh, all of them are wrapped up in some
[01:09:00] sort that can issue. There's 20 primary
[01:09:01] state agencies in state law. of the
[01:09:04] largest or 10 of our largest primary
[01:09:06] agencies. Many of the nonprofits receive
[01:09:08] grants and funding from this from all 10
[01:09:11] agencies.
[01:09:13] >> If you had to put a number on it based
[01:09:15] on what you've seen, your work, your
[01:09:17] investigations, the audits that you've
[01:09:18] seen, what do you think the total losses
[01:09:20] are to motans in terms of fraud? I
[01:09:22] >> I think the conservative number is what
[01:09:23] our federal investigators have
[01:09:24] determined of just the 14 Medicaid
[01:09:26] programs that half of that half of all
[01:09:28] of it would be about $9 billion. And I I
[01:09:32] don't think that's and I think the
[01:09:34] reason I believe that's true is in each
[01:09:36] audit that the legislative auditor
[01:09:38] produces we measure right level in the
[01:09:40] samples and per of what they have done
[01:09:42] 20 now 20 to 80% of each one of they're
[01:09:45] unable to prove that the dollars were
[01:09:47] actually gone have gone to the programs
[01:09:49] in which they were indicated
[01:09:52] >> $9 billion how how much of this money
[01:09:55] has left Minnesota for overseas
[01:09:57] >> well in I I arrived in 2017 the child
[01:10:00] care assistance program fraud um for
[01:10:03] which the program I believe is $130
[01:10:04] million. The whistleblowers proved to or
[01:10:07] showed us that they believe a hundred
[01:10:09] million of that was fraudulent. We had a
[01:10:11] whistleblower come forward um actually
[01:10:13] publicly and at that time we also
[01:10:15] discovered something new to me which is
[01:10:17] the hala process of the movement of cash
[01:10:19] through our airports in in Minneapolis
[01:10:21] St. Paul. And what I've learned come to
[01:10:23] learn in that year it was just
[01:10:25] coincidentally $100 million in fraud
[01:10:27] suspected fraud and $100 million went
[01:10:29] out in cash through the Minneapolis St.
[01:10:31] Paul airport. I've I've learned that
[01:10:33] >> worked. Tell us how that worked. $100
[01:10:35] million in cash through the airport
[01:10:36] >> in suitcases. A mill back then it was a
[01:10:38] million out of crack. And so I've
[01:10:41] learned that in the year before it was
[01:10:42] about $74 million. Secretary Bessant
[01:10:46] just I've tried for two and a half years
[01:10:47] to get that number because I wanted to
[01:10:49] get a view of um how many how many
[01:10:51] excess dollars are sent out from the
[01:10:53] program from from the community that's
[01:10:55] sending them and in the last two years
[01:10:57] it's 340 million each year and so if you
[01:11:01] look at it it's about a 25% increase
[01:11:04] over this period from 2017 that's $1.8 8
[01:11:07] billion in cash. And I don't think the
[01:11:10] average citizen who's works for their
[01:11:11] money understands how complicated it is
[01:11:14] to ship or to obtain 6 to7 million of
[01:11:18] cash every single week of every of the
[01:11:21] year. Um that's and and our federal
[01:11:24] government certainly must have been
[01:11:25] aware of it and has done nothing to to
[01:11:27] look at it. But that's just all but
[01:11:29] about 130 million I think is originated
[01:11:31] out of Minnesota. You know the but what
[01:11:34] every American taxpayer absolutely
[01:11:36] understands is their federal tax money
[01:11:37] being taken on suitcases out of this
[01:11:39] country to go heaven knows where. I mean
[01:11:42] if that's not infuriating I don't know
[01:11:44] what is. And the fact that it is
[01:11:46] systemic in Minnesota and probably to
[01:11:48] your testimony Mr. Telco probably
[01:11:50] systemic in a lot of other places. I
[01:11:53] mean millions of dollars in suitcases
[01:11:55] out of an airport and that's just one
[01:11:57] means of shipping this money around. I
[01:12:00] mean it's absolutely unbelievable. I
[01:12:02] want to come back to you, Mr. Talov. You
[01:12:03] testified
[01:12:05] that about a trillion dollars you think
[01:12:07] is lost in fraud every year. Where where
[01:12:09] is this money going? I mean, we know
[01:12:10] where some of it's going in Minnesota.
[01:12:12] It went overseas. It went to Somalia. It
[01:12:13] went to it went to NGO fronts. We know
[01:12:15] where it's gone in some other states.
[01:12:17] California gave away million billions of
[01:12:19] dollars to a pro- Hamas
[01:12:22] NGO.
[01:12:23] >> Uh where but a trillion dollars
[01:12:25] nationally. Where's this money going to?
[01:12:26] >> I I appreciate that question because
[01:12:28] most people don't ask that question. It
[01:12:30] goes to terrorism. It goes to child
[01:12:33] trafficking. It goes to drugs. It goes
[01:12:36] to terrorism.
[01:12:38] And then it's used to purchase luxury
[01:12:40] items, cars, purses, homes, that's all
[01:12:45] funded by people like me that pay taxes.
[01:12:48] So, it's you're telling me that the
[01:12:51] electrician who goes to work every day
[01:12:54] and clocks in and works his butt off and
[01:12:56] tries to earn just enough to be able to,
[01:12:59] you know, make his rent, maybe have a
[01:13:01] kid or two, put food on the table. His
[01:13:04] tax money is being used to buy other
[01:13:06] people luxury items, cars, yachts,
[01:13:09] whatever else, and is going to fund
[01:13:10] terrorism and child trafficking.
[01:13:12] >> Yes, sir.
[01:13:13] >> A trillion dollar a year on this stuff.
[01:13:15] $115 million an hour.
[01:13:18] >> $115 million an hour. How do they get
[01:13:22] their hands on it? What What are we
[01:13:24] talking about here? Trans, national
[01:13:25] organizations, criminal networks. How do
[01:13:27] they get their hands on this money?
[01:13:28] >> They they take advantage of antiquated
[01:13:30] government systems and processes. They
[01:13:34] go into programs that they know elected
[01:13:37] and appointed officials won't touch and
[01:13:40] they can steal at scale. And what
[01:13:43] happened really was during the pandemic
[01:13:45] between the PPP loans and the
[01:13:47] unemployment insurance they learned a
[01:13:50] really valuable lesson. Government never
[01:13:53] runs out of money and the probability of
[01:13:56] getting caught is virtually zero. I have
[01:13:59] it at onetenth of 1%.
[01:14:03] >> So come back to the recommendations that
[01:14:05] you mentioned in your opening statement.
[01:14:07] What do we need to do to put a stop to
[01:14:10] this hemorrhaging of people's
[01:14:12] hard-earned money going overseas to
[01:14:15] finance child trafficking and luxury
[01:14:18] yachts? I what needs to happen here?
[01:14:20] >> It's it's really simple. It's used every
[01:14:23] single day in the commercial sector.
[01:14:25] Front-end identity verification. You
[01:14:28] just don't get to say I am who I say I
[01:14:31] am. Second, reertification of all the
[01:14:34] recipients. There is so much fraud right
[01:14:37] now in the benefit programs all across
[01:14:39] the country. We need to get a baseline.
[01:14:43] Third, these is these this notion of a
[01:14:46] third party independent audit. And
[01:14:49] finally is involving federal law
[01:14:51] enforcement like the Secret Service to
[01:14:54] investigate it. The the the thing that
[01:14:55] people don't understand is that most of
[01:14:58] these beneficiaries, Senator, they're
[01:15:00] not real. They're fake. There's
[01:15:03] someone's stolen identity that is
[01:15:05] getting used in all 50 states.
[01:15:08] >> Incredible. Senator Kim, do you have
[01:15:10] anything further?
[01:15:11] >> Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Chairman. I
[01:15:12] mean, look, um, uh, what you just laid
[01:15:15] out there, Mr. Talco, I mean, it it it
[01:15:17] should piss off every single American. I
[01:15:19] mean, this is absolutely atrocious and
[01:15:22] it just I'm just furious honestly,
[01:15:25] chairman. And like I I think that there
[01:15:27] is something here as we've tried in
[01:15:29] other hearings too where we can work in
[01:15:31] a bipartisan way to be able to address
[01:15:33] this. You know my job today I'm not
[01:15:35] trying to defend any single state. I'm
[01:15:37] just saying that we can't look at it
[01:15:39] just through that lens. I mean Mr. Talov
[01:15:41] you were talking about this saying the
[01:15:42] criminals are looking at this
[01:15:44] nationally. Is that right? I think that
[01:15:46] was your quote.
[01:15:46] >> Yes sir.
[01:15:47] >> Then we need to make sure we're looking
[01:15:48] at this nationally too because it's not
[01:15:51] something that any single state is going
[01:15:53] to be able to handle on their own. Is
[01:15:55] that right, Mr. Talov? Like no single
[01:15:56] state uh in our country has has the
[01:15:59] capacity on their own to be able to
[01:16:00] address this.
[01:16:01] >> You don't see the connections when
[01:16:03] you're looking at it within a state. You
[01:16:05] have to look at it nationally to find
[01:16:06] the connections.
[01:16:07] >> Yeah. And and so, you know, I think just
[01:16:11] our best opportunity here going forward
[01:16:13] to really try to deliver for the
[01:16:16] American people because this is
[01:16:17] outrageous and and should not continue
[01:16:19] on. It's just not just the scale of the
[01:16:22] money, but what it's being used for and
[01:16:24] what it's going towards. And I say that
[01:16:26] as someone who used to work
[01:16:27] counterterrorism, uh, you know, at the
[01:16:29] Pentagon before, like, I can't stand
[01:16:31] this. Uh, but we need to make sure we're
[01:16:33] focusing in on the criminals and
[01:16:35] thinking through, you know, what you
[01:16:36] were saying about federal law
[01:16:37] enforcement and other efforts. So, look,
[01:16:40] you know, Mr. chairman. Again, I just
[01:16:42] think that there's an opportunity here
[01:16:43] for us to come up with a comprehensive
[01:16:46] uh uh set of a menu of actions that we
[01:16:49] can take and think through what is it
[01:16:51] that we can work with this
[01:16:52] administration on? What is it that we
[01:16:54] can work through Congress on? What is it
[01:16:55] that we can empower the states to be
[01:16:58] able to step up and to be able to handle
[01:17:01] on that front? And you know, Mr. Um
[01:17:04] yeah, Headler uh Gadet, I just wanted to
[01:17:07] just follow up with you because, you
[01:17:08] know, we were talking through this about
[01:17:10] just the the challenges for instance on
[01:17:13] on the data side. You know, I had seen,
[01:17:16] you know, different reports about for
[01:17:17] instance USA spending.gov, right? But it
[01:17:20] seems from my appearance wholly
[01:17:21] inadequate right now in terms of being
[01:17:23] able to really rise to the level of the
[01:17:25] detail. I mean, I I think it's
[01:17:27] admirable. We're trying to have that
[01:17:29] transparency, but would you agree that,
[01:17:31] you know, this is something if we're
[01:17:32] very serious about this, need to make
[01:17:34] sure that we're taking the tools that we
[01:17:36] have, investing in them to have a
[01:17:39] greater level of detail and the fidelity
[01:17:41] to really be able to try to track. Does
[01:17:43] that make sense to you?
[01:17:45] >> Yeah, it makes perfect sense. And I
[01:17:46] would just note that we're actually at a
[01:17:47] kind of an interesting moment right now.
[01:17:49] over 20 years 20 year anniversary of the
[01:17:51] passage of the federal funding
[01:17:52] accountability and transparency act
[01:17:53] which was the piece of legislation
[01:17:55] bipartisan co-led by uh Senator Tom
[01:17:58] Coburn and then Senator Barack Obama by
[01:17:59] the way that created uh USA betting.gov
[01:18:02] and really tried to begin the process of
[01:18:04] bringing federal funding and the
[01:18:05] tracking of federal funding into the
[01:18:07] 21st century. We have obviously not kept
[01:18:09] up and as I mentioned in my opening
[01:18:11] testimony we have a lot a long ways to
[01:18:13] go to really reflect 21st century sort
[01:18:15] of technological capabilities when it
[01:18:17] comes to how we track monitor and assess
[01:18:19] federal spending but it's you know it's
[01:18:22] something we can do it's not hard you
[01:18:24] know the statute is there we have the
[01:18:25] reforms we have the fixes we just need
[01:18:27] to do it
[01:18:28] >> Mr. Headler got ahead I just wanted to
[01:18:30] stick with you a little more you know
[01:18:32] Mr. Telco was going through, you know,
[01:18:34] four different uh ideas here. Front-end
[01:18:37] identity verification, reertification,
[01:18:39] third party audits, federal law
[01:18:41] enforcement. Did I get that right? You
[01:18:43] know, I just wanted to get your
[01:18:44] response. You know, if there's anything
[01:18:46] else that you want to add, uh any other
[01:18:48] things that this committee should be
[01:18:49] thinking about?
[01:18:51] >> Yes. So, all of the recommendations that
[01:18:52] Mr. Talco laid out there sound perfectly
[01:18:55] reasonable to me. I would add uh to
[01:18:57] build a little bit on the USA spending
[01:18:59] issue that is supposed to be the primary
[01:19:01] interface through which the American
[01:19:02] people can uh verify can trust but
[01:19:05] verify what is happening with their tax
[01:19:07] dollars. The problem is is that USA
[01:19:08] spending right now is um it's it's
[01:19:11] outdated and it doesn't require enough
[01:19:13] information to make it truly useful in
[01:19:15] the way that it needed to be. As a prime
[01:19:17] example of that for uh you know we are
[01:19:19] required each program is required to
[01:19:21] submit award descriptions which is
[01:19:22] exactly what it sounds like. It's
[01:19:24] supposed to tell you what that federal
[01:19:26] award is. But right now, there are no
[01:19:28] standards or no uh guidelines around
[01:19:31] what has to be contained in an award
[01:19:32] description. So, if you go on USA
[01:19:34] spending and you try to look up like
[01:19:35] what a program is, how much money is
[01:19:37] being spent, you know, and you look in
[01:19:39] the award description field, you're
[01:19:40] often going to see a bunch of
[01:19:41] gobbledegook that makes no sense and
[01:19:42] doesn't give you any information. And
[01:19:44] that could be easily fixed by just
[01:19:45] saying to OM to agencies, hey, you have
[01:19:48] to provide meaningful information when
[01:19:50] you're entering in these award
[01:19:52] descriptions into USA spending. So there
[01:19:53] are a ton of pretty lowhanging fruit
[01:19:55] fixes you like that that would really
[01:19:57] help as far as the sort of transparency
[01:19:59] and trying to actualize the fact that
[01:20:01] sunlight truly is the best disinfectant.
[01:20:03] >> Yeah. No, look, thank you for that. I I
[01:20:06] just want to end here just saying you we
[01:20:09] take all of this effort that we're doing
[01:20:10] right now mindful of the fact that, you
[01:20:12] know, we live in the time of the
[01:20:14] greatest amount of distrust in
[01:20:15] government and modern American history.
[01:20:18] And there's a lot of reasons for that.
[01:20:19] But I think a lot of what we heard today
[01:20:21] is a big part of that, you know, is the
[01:20:23] sense that we can't manage our money. In
[01:20:25] fact, uh, you know, that we're we're
[01:20:28] seeing us being taken advantage of by
[01:20:31] others. And I again, I I hope we can
[01:20:34] just in a unified way be able to say
[01:20:36] enough. Like we're tired of this and we
[01:20:38] need to have that end and work earnestly
[01:20:41] to be able to address it. What I worry
[01:20:43] though again is if we're sniping at each
[01:20:46] other and continuing to point attacks at
[01:20:48] each other, especially politically, the
[01:20:51] only people that benefit that from that
[01:20:53] are the criminals. They're the ones that
[01:20:54] are getting away with this as we're
[01:20:56] wrestling with each other and fighting
[01:20:58] each other. Whereas if we are seriously
[01:21:00] being targeted in such a direct and
[01:21:04] malicious way by actors uh then we need
[01:21:08] to make sure we are unified in in terms
[01:21:10] of being able to address that and be
[01:21:12] able to do this with a a clear mind
[01:21:15] because again I think restoring trust is
[01:21:17] so important right now. we think about
[01:21:20] just how many, you know, legitimate
[01:21:22] beneficiaries are being taken advantage
[01:21:24] of and not getting how the taxpayer
[01:21:26] dollars are being diverted. Uh, and how
[01:21:28] all of this is just going to continue to
[01:21:30] make it harder for us to be able to push
[01:21:33] forward. So, Mr. Chair, again, uh, I am
[01:21:36] grateful that we have an opportunity to
[01:21:38] shine a light on this. You know, I know
[01:21:39] we will have some disagreements in terms
[01:21:42] of, you know, some of the priorities and
[01:21:44] some of the words that we're using, but
[01:21:45] again, I I am ready to be able to
[01:21:47] engage. I think many people uh on the
[01:21:50] Democratic side here in the Senate would
[01:21:51] be willing to engage in this uh in a
[01:21:53] legitimate discussion of how we take
[01:21:55] this on nationally in a systemic way and
[01:21:57] I just urge you and and others hopefully
[01:22:00] we can find an opportunity to do that
[01:22:01] and with that I yield back.
[01:22:03] >> Senator Johnson.
[01:22:04] >> Hey Mr. Chairman, I want to go back to
[01:22:06] NOS's. My assumption is NOS's are
[01:22:08] nonprofits. Correct. Are there any
[01:22:11] for-profit NOS?
[01:22:13] >> Uh that is correct. Senator,
[01:22:15] >> how did they accumulate $14.1 trillion
[01:22:18] worth of assets? Where'd that money come
[01:22:20] from?
[01:22:21] >> Uh, it's a great question. We've tracked
[01:22:22] over 100 million just in the last few
[01:22:25] years from the federal government. So,
[01:22:28] entities in the Soros network and the
[01:22:29] Rockefeller network and the Tides
[01:22:31] Network especially.
[01:22:32] >> Soros is I mean
[01:22:34] >> they get grants.
[01:22:34] >> It's 14 trillion dollar. So again,
[01:22:38] that's one of the things my subcommittee
[01:22:40] is trying to investigate is we're trying
[01:22:42] to track that back and you know, go back
[01:22:43] in history and $14 trillion
[01:22:46] non-government
[01:22:48] was these are nonprofits. They get money
[01:22:50] from government and they distribute to,
[01:22:52] you know, worthy beneficiaries. Somehow
[01:22:54] they're pocketing $14.1 trillion. That's
[01:22:57] okay. So there there's a project for for
[01:22:59] both of you researchers. Um
[01:23:03] the the reason we focus on Minnesota is
[01:23:05] is we need to learn what happened in
[01:23:06] Minnesota so we can widen our apture and
[01:23:09] see okay if they've we're able to do it
[01:23:11] in Minnesota where else are they doing
[01:23:13] the same exact thing. Okay. So it's not
[01:23:15] we're we're not trying to penalize
[01:23:16] Minnesota or one particular population.
[01:23:18] It's like no we have to learn from this
[01:23:20] obvious fraud and open up our aperture.
[01:23:23] Uh Mr. Talov you mentioned steel at
[01:23:26] scale. Let let me give you an example of
[01:23:28] one legalized stealing at scale that
[01:23:32] unfortunately one side of the aisle
[01:23:34] completely ignored. So when we passed
[01:23:37] the enhanced subsidies for Obamacare,
[01:23:40] the the pandemic, the temporary one,
[01:23:42] right? Uh we created a lot of zero
[01:23:45] premium policies. Okay. Prior to the
[01:23:48] pandemic, there were about 10 million
[01:23:49] people on the exchanges. Now all of a
[01:23:50] sudden there's about 24 million
[01:23:53] supposedly. Now, we've known because
[01:23:54] Paragon has looked at this and because
[01:23:56] those zero premium policies probably
[01:23:59] about 6 million phantom policies, okay,
[01:24:02] and again, no claim policies went from
[01:24:04] 20 to 40%. I mean, this is obvious
[01:24:06] fraud, right? Probably about $30 billion
[01:24:09] a year. So, anybody who wanted to just
[01:24:12] go ahead and clean extension of the
[01:24:14] enhanced policies, even though we were
[01:24:16] talking about this all the time, $30
[01:24:18] billion a year, I would call that fraud
[01:24:21] at scale. was happy to just look the
[01:24:24] other way and facilitate that fraud.
[01:24:27] >> Yeah.
[01:24:27] >> Okay. So, again, we can talk about
[01:24:28] bipartisanship, but the fact of the
[01:24:30] matter is we've got one side of the
[01:24:31] aisle. It is has no problem with this.
[01:24:34] Governor Walsh had no problem looking
[01:24:36] the other way. They were fully aware of
[01:24:37] it. I mean, the first uh audit audit
[01:24:40] that I saw that was in I think March of
[01:24:42] 2019, a couple months after he got got
[01:24:44] into office, you know, fully aware of
[01:24:47] this. They're not really not willing to
[01:24:48] do anything about it, which is why the
[01:24:50] GAO recommendations are not enacted.
[01:24:54] But I want to know, you describe
[01:24:57] stealing at scale. H how do how do they
[01:24:59] do it? H how could you funnel $14
[01:25:01] trillion into NOS's? How does it happen?
[01:25:04] >> So So go back to your Medicaid example,
[01:25:06] right? 40% of those policies, absolutely
[01:25:09] no claims. But that's just the tip of
[01:25:12] the iceberg. Once you're in Medicaid and
[01:25:15] you have a valid number, then you start
[01:25:17] manipulating the bad providers and you
[01:25:20] start getting durable equipment, um, a
[01:25:23] catheter, uh, orthopedics, etc. that are
[01:25:26] never shipped. And all of a sudden, you
[01:25:29] are losing literally hundreds of
[01:25:32] billions of dollars. And what happens in
[01:25:36] government is we don't get to the lowest
[01:25:37] common denominator. The lowest common
[01:25:39] denominator is the primary care
[01:25:42] physician that gets inundated with
[01:25:45] thousands and thousands of fake patients
[01:25:48] seeking fake services and products.
[01:25:51] >> But but who's step aside from any who's
[01:25:53] accumulating this? I mean who who is
[01:25:56] behind literally how many tons of uh
[01:25:59] dollar bills Minnesota the se the one
[01:26:02] well I always heard it's you know 700
[01:26:04] million but it's $1.4 billion of cash.
[01:26:07] >> Yeah. In in my experience doing this 15
[01:26:09] years, it all ends up tied back to
[01:26:12] transnational criminal organizations
[01:26:14] that facilitate the fraud and move
[01:26:16] portions of it out of the
[01:26:17] >> Are there names for these or are they
[01:26:19] just that shadowy?
[01:26:20] >> They're they're state sponsored groups.
[01:26:23] They're um groups such as uh AP41.
[01:26:27] These are well-known organizations that
[01:26:30] operate and their sole purpose is to
[01:26:32] steal from American taxpayers,
[01:26:34] destabilize our democracy and use that
[01:26:37] money for other purposes.
[01:26:38] >> Mr. Bruner, again, you you've I think
[01:26:40] part of writing a book on some of the
[01:26:42] foreign influences here. You know, we
[01:26:45] need data. We need information. We need
[01:26:46] flowcharts. We need to, you know, break
[01:26:49] down the 14.1 trillion. Figure out where
[01:26:51] that came from. Figure out if it's a
[01:26:53] trillion or trillion half dollars a year
[01:26:54] in fraud. We we've got to break that
[01:26:56] down and go here the programs it's going
[01:26:58] through and here's who's here's who's
[01:27:01] sucking it up because again there's some
[01:27:03] fraud of you know people getting
[01:27:04] benefits that they don't deserve. Okay
[01:27:06] that's that's smallcale fraud you're
[01:27:09] talking about fraud at scale that's
[01:27:11] being funneling money into I don't know
[01:27:13] Elshaba what whatever terrorist
[01:27:15] organization maybe some of that seven or
[01:27:17] 1.4 billion dollars worth of cash that
[01:27:20] went out of Minneapolis. um h how do we
[01:27:23] get to the bottom of this? You know, h
[01:27:26] how much research research has already
[01:27:27] been done?
[01:27:28] >> Yeah. Well, in the example of the cash
[01:27:30] flown out of Minneapolis, I mean, it's
[01:27:32] really shocking because it goes through
[01:27:33] this Hala network, which is an ancient
[01:27:35] Islamic banking system. Um and we did a
[01:27:38] report uh EB terrorism, and it's about
[01:27:41] how money makes its way to terror
[01:27:42] groups. Uh what's what's I mean, the
[01:27:45] figures we've talked about today, think
[01:27:46] about how much 9/11 cost. the the you
[01:27:50] know investigation shows around 450,000
[01:27:52] uh many of the hijackers were on uh
[01:27:55] benefits with that. Uh the Boston
[01:27:57] bombing, it's a pressure cooker. I mean
[01:27:58] a couple hundred bucks or they were on
[01:28:00] benefits. Uh same thing with New
[01:28:02] Orleans, the truck driver, I mean 1999 a
[01:28:04] day from U-Haul. So the number of the
[01:28:07] amount of money that we're seeing go
[01:28:08] out, it needs to stop because of the
[01:28:10] amount of damage it could potentially
[01:28:11] do. Um regarding the 14.1 trillion, we
[01:28:14] we'll track it, but these are
[01:28:15] endowments. I mean, it's legal to hold,
[01:28:17] you know, the buildings and the and the
[01:28:18] things like that, but uh there's so much
[01:28:20] money, it's hard for a human to
[01:28:22] comprehend $14 trillion in assets.
[01:28:26] >> Okay. Well, again, we this is incredibly
[01:28:28] important. Again, this is this is way
[01:28:30] more than, you know, fraud by
[01:28:32] individuals. This these are
[01:28:34] organizations organizing this. And
[01:28:36] again, I would argue for political
[01:28:37] purpose, right? Because you you go back
[01:28:39] to Minneapolis th those protests, those
[01:28:43] people just, you know, spraying out of
[01:28:44] out of their houses and stuff. You know,
[01:28:46] this was highly organized. Now, I don't
[01:28:47] know, was it was it literally organized
[01:28:50] to turn people's attention away from the
[01:28:52] massive fraud? I know people made
[01:28:55] claims. I don't know. But all I know is
[01:28:58] the the only reason Americans are
[01:28:59] furious at ICE right now is because that
[01:29:01] was jinned up. Those activists were
[01:29:03] trained to put themselves in harm's way.
[01:29:05] They got a couple martyrs. It's been
[01:29:07] incredibly effective, but it's
[01:29:09] incredibly corrosive on our body
[01:29:11] politic. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
[01:29:14] To your question, Senator Johnson's
[01:29:16] 14,000 lb of $100 bills. 14,000 lb of
[01:29:20] $100 bills that left the Minneapolis
[01:29:22] airport alone. Alone. I want to end.
[01:29:25] >> Hey, by the way, just real quick, the
[01:29:27] fix to there is when you see they they
[01:29:29] they actually filled out the CBP forms.
[01:29:32] So, it was all okay because they filled
[01:29:34] out the paperwork. Why wasn't the IRS
[01:29:36] all over their case going, "Where'd this
[01:29:37] money come from?" So again, I hope this
[01:29:40] administration starts focusing and
[01:29:41] investigating where'd that money come
[01:29:43] from.
[01:29:44] >> We've talked about some of the necessary
[01:29:46] steps that are needed here to deal with
[01:29:48] the sort of fraud and corruption that
[01:29:50] we've been talking about today. And I
[01:29:51] want to add one more to that and that is
[01:29:53] prosecution. As a former prosecutor,
[01:29:55] there's nothing like the power of
[01:29:56] prosecution. And when you've got $60
[01:29:58] million in dark money flowing through at
[01:30:01] least 14 different groups just for the
[01:30:03] Minnesota protests alone to say nothing
[01:30:06] of other protests, anti-law enforcement
[01:30:08] protests we've seen around the country.
[01:30:10] Many of these groups using foreign
[01:30:12] money. By the way, no foreign entity has
[01:30:13] any rights to the First Amendment in the
[01:30:15] United States of America. And when you
[01:30:16] are funneling and funding activity that
[01:30:19] is in that is itself illegal. The
[01:30:21] assault of cops is illegal. Blowing up
[01:30:22] cars on the California freeway, that's
[01:30:24] illegal. uh disrupting students trying
[01:30:27] to go to school on our campuses. That's
[01:30:29] illegal. And over and over again, we see
[01:30:32] this money through these same networks
[01:30:34] flowing in to create these riots, these
[01:30:36] protests, these divisions. There needs
[01:30:37] to be prosecutions here. So, I just
[01:30:39] renew my call to the Department of
[01:30:41] Justice to investigate these groups,
[01:30:44] these dark money groups. untangle this
[01:30:47] web and bring prosecutions wherever you
[01:30:50] can because the American people deserve
[01:30:52] to have control of their government. Not
[01:30:54] some foreign billionaire or set of
[01:30:56] billionaires, not some shadowy group of
[01:30:59] American billionaires. It ought to be
[01:31:00] the American people. We the people, not
[01:31:02] we the billionaires who are trying to
[01:31:05] control our discourse and yes, our
[01:31:07] elections in many cases through their
[01:31:09] foreign money, their access, their
[01:31:11] influence. It's got to stop and one of
[01:31:13] the best ways to stop it is with
[01:31:14] prosecution. Thank you to all of the
[01:31:16] witnesses for being here. The record for
[01:31:17] this hearing will remain open for 15
[01:31:19] days. That's until Wednesday, February
[01:31:21] the 25th of this year for the submission
[01:31:23] of statements and questions for the
[01:31:24] record. And with that, this hearing is
[01:31:26] adjourned.
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