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[00:00:00] Hello, hello everyone. Welcome back to
[00:00:02] another edition of our Mintcast podcast.
[00:00:05] Um, today I am joined by two really
[00:00:08] amazing guests. Ahmed is a journalist
[00:00:12] and a and the CEO of African stream.
[00:00:15] It's this revolutionary and incredible
[00:00:19] media company that has been covering
[00:00:21] Africa's rise and its resistance to US
[00:00:25] imperialism. And recently African stream
[00:00:29] and Ahmed himself have been caught in
[00:00:31] the crosshairs of the US state
[00:00:33] department because of its success. Um
[00:00:36] they have been the target of um Anthony
[00:00:40] Blinkin himself. He released statements
[00:00:42] to target and work with uh big tech to
[00:00:45] shut down African stream. And so today
[00:00:48] I'm really excited to be joined by Ahmed
[00:00:50] Kabalo. He's a journalist, an editor, um
[00:00:53] director of media or African stream
[00:00:55] who's done an incredible job uh with
[00:00:57] this uh media project. So Ahmed, thank
[00:01:00] you so much for joining us today.
[00:01:04] >> Thank you for having me and I'm a big
[00:01:06] fan of Mint Press and been following for
[00:01:08] many years. So great great honor to be
[00:01:10] on the show.
[00:01:11] >> We appreciate that support. And of
[00:01:13] course I am joined also by Alan Mloud.
[00:01:15] He is our senior staff writer here at
[00:01:18] Mint Press. one of the most important
[00:01:20] journalists I would say uh within the
[00:01:23] independent media uh industry uh
[00:01:26] uncovering the paper trails of the uh 1%
[00:01:32] war machine. So today we're going to be
[00:01:35] looking at Africa rising and the attacks
[00:01:41] that Ahmed and African Stream have faced
[00:01:43] themselves. So, um, before we get
[00:01:46] started, I'm actually going to play this
[00:01:47] clip by Anthony Blinken, and we're going
[00:01:50] to hear what he had to say when he, um,
[00:01:52] targeted African Stream.
[00:01:54] >> RT also secretly runs the online
[00:01:56] platform African Stream across a wide
[00:02:00] range of social media platforms. Now,
[00:02:03] according to the outlet's website,
[00:02:05] African Stream is, and I quote, a
[00:02:07] pan-African digital media organization
[00:02:10] based exclusively on social media
[00:02:11] platforms focusing on giving a voice to
[00:02:14] all Africans both at home and abroad.
[00:02:17] In reality, the only voice it gives is
[00:02:21] to Kremlin propagandists.
[00:02:23] >> All right, so there you have it. We just
[00:02:24] heard from Anthony Blinkin himself
[00:02:26] calling African stream a project of RT
[00:02:30] and a mouthpiece for Kremlin propaganda.
[00:02:33] So Ahmed um obviously I'm sure it's been
[00:02:37] a difficult uh past month or so with the
[00:02:40] news that African stream was shut down
[00:02:43] and targeted by big tech um at the
[00:02:46] behest of the state department and
[00:02:48] Anthony Blinkin himself. I mean, we
[00:02:50] could say that's a huge badge of honor
[00:02:52] when you're US, you know, an
[00:02:53] anti-imperialist
[00:02:55] running a media organization being
[00:02:57] targeted by the State Department, but
[00:02:58] I'm sure this was not easy um for you as
[00:03:02] someone who has built such an incredible
[00:03:04] platform covering Africa Rising. What do
[00:03:08] you make of um this attack against
[00:03:13] African Stream and this accusation that
[00:03:16] it is Kremlin propaganda?
[00:03:21] I mean the latter accusation that we're
[00:03:24] criminal propagandist is insulting
[00:03:28] not really so much to us but to African
[00:03:32] people. The idea that if you're against
[00:03:35] imperialism
[00:03:37] it's not because you've analyzed the
[00:03:39] conditions that you're in. Not because
[00:03:41] you understand the relationship of
[00:03:44] neocolonialism within the African
[00:03:46] context, that our economies are not
[00:03:48] owned by us, that um 14 African
[00:03:52] countries use the CFA Frank, which keeps
[00:03:55] its reserves in in uh the Bank of
[00:03:59] France, which controls the economy of
[00:04:01] those countries. and the other countries
[00:04:03] in the African continent are are
[00:04:06] basically
[00:04:10] hostage to the US dollar. They have to
[00:04:13] export things that they just so they can
[00:04:16] receive US dollars and if they don't
[00:04:19] their current their currency is devalued
[00:04:22] um and their whole economy economy
[00:04:23] collapses. So if you analyze these these
[00:04:26] situations and you think well there's
[00:04:27] something wrong with this. We're meant
[00:04:29] to have got our independence in 1958,
[00:04:32] 1957, 1960, 1961, and so on. Um, but yet
[00:04:36] we, our country's economies are not
[00:04:39] controlled by us. Uh, the people that
[00:04:41] win elections are the people that
[00:04:44] campaigns are best funded and those are
[00:04:46] usually that have connections to Western
[00:04:48] capital. If you analyze these conditions
[00:04:51] and you say there's something wrong with
[00:04:52] this, then it's not because you're
[00:04:55] intelligent enough to understand what's
[00:04:56] going on within your own context. is
[00:04:58] because you're influenced by Russians.
[00:05:00] And this is something a trick that has
[00:05:03] been played time and time again in
[00:05:05] within our continent. They called
[00:05:07] Patrice Leumba, they called him the
[00:05:09] African Castra.
[00:05:11] They said Thomas Sankara was a Russian
[00:05:14] agent. They said Krummer was a Russian
[00:05:16] agent before they deposed him. Uh Ahmed
[00:05:19] Seo Tore. Uh the list goes on and on and
[00:05:23] on. Nelson Mandela. Um now in the
[00:05:26] contemporary sense they say it about
[00:05:28] Julius MMA they say it about uh Ibraham
[00:05:31] Chi they say about Aim Go and um Abd
[00:05:34] Rahman Tani in Nijer uh no if if you
[00:05:37] just say if you're the president of
[00:05:39] Nijer and you say it's not right that we
[00:05:43] export uranium but most of our country
[00:05:46] is in darkness. If you say that that's
[00:05:48] not your own analysis. That's Russian
[00:05:50] propaganda. Um, so we're not insulted
[00:05:54] because, you know, we're in very rich
[00:05:56] company. Uh, but it is insulting to
[00:05:59] African people and as an African I'm
[00:06:01] insulted. Not so much um as African
[00:06:04] stream.
[00:06:08] >> Yeah, it's it's it's it's quite horrible
[00:06:11] and it is an insult. um you know you
[00:06:13] just like I'm a Palestinian American who
[00:06:15] was uh very much influenced by living
[00:06:18] under Israeli occupation and apartheid
[00:06:21] your family is from Sudan and you
[00:06:24] watched like your country being split
[00:06:27] into half um by Western imperialist
[00:06:30] nations and so I'm sure that played a
[00:06:32] huge role in your life um mission in
[00:06:38] exposing US imperialism not just in
[00:06:42] Sudan, but in other countries ac across
[00:06:44] Africa.
[00:06:46] >> Yeah, 100%. Jeffrey Saxs said it best.
[00:06:49] He said, "The US helped to divide Sudan
[00:06:53] into two republics, and now we've got
[00:06:55] war in the south and war in the north.
[00:06:57] Job well done." Um, and yeah, we, you
[00:07:01] know, the conflict in Sudan, it doesn't
[00:07:04] get coverage. it doesn't get reported on
[00:07:07] because the western mainstream narrative
[00:07:10] has depicted Africa as a place of
[00:07:12] conflict. So that when people die, it's
[00:07:15] just seen as normal. When people starve,
[00:07:17] it's just seen as normal. Uh when people
[00:07:20] eat cockroaches because they've got no
[00:07:22] food, it's just normal. When children
[00:07:24] die because of sanitation issues, uh you
[00:07:27] know, my my former basketball coach mom
[00:07:29] sent me a WhatsApp message saying, "Your
[00:07:31] former basketball coach has just died of
[00:07:33] deni fever." But it's just normal. It's
[00:07:36] just normal. And so what African Stream
[00:07:38] was was trying to explain is these
[00:07:41] situations are not normal. These
[00:07:43] situations are manufactured. And for us
[00:07:46] to change the direction of the continent
[00:07:49] that we're connected to, we first need
[00:07:51] to have an understanding of that that
[00:07:53] that being African doesn't mean that we
[00:07:56] have to be subject to poverty,
[00:08:00] to destitution, to war. This doesn't
[00:08:03] have to be the way. You know, if we take
[00:08:05] control of our resources,
[00:08:08] if we if we take control of what is our
[00:08:11] god-given right, which lies beneath our
[00:08:13] feet, we can rise. Uh, and we're seeing
[00:08:16] that's what's happened in Bikina Fasa.
[00:08:19] That's what's happening in Mali, and
[00:08:21] that's what's happening in Asia. Um, but
[00:08:23] it's not happening in in enough
[00:08:25] countries. Um, I'll just cut you on one
[00:08:29] thing. You're saying Africa's rising. I
[00:08:31] wish that was the case. In reality, it's
[00:08:33] the Sahel that's rising. Most of the
[00:08:35] other countries within the continent
[00:08:37] sadly are ruled by neoc colonial puppets
[00:08:40] from Nigeria to Congo. You know, Congo
[00:08:44] has just signed the worst peace deal
[00:08:48] um uh with Rwanda that that I think has
[00:08:50] that that any sovereign government has
[00:08:53] ever signed on behalf of the people. Uh
[00:08:55] they just signed another deal with with
[00:08:58] M23 in Qatar. um where they basically
[00:09:03] M23 has to give up nothing. The land
[00:09:05] that it's occupying in eastern GMA it
[00:09:07] gets to hold on to. Um so these are
[00:09:10] these are the these are the neoc
[00:09:11] colonial governments that our people are
[00:09:13] subjected to and this is why the young
[00:09:16] leadership in Mali and Bikina Fasa and
[00:09:19] Nijair are such a threat to the rest of
[00:09:21] the continent because they're worry that
[00:09:23] this will have you know a domino effect
[00:09:26] on the rest of the continent and we and
[00:09:28] African stream was launched in September
[00:09:30] 2022.
[00:09:32] Um Ibrahim Chy came into power in
[00:09:34] October 2022. So we've basically covered
[00:09:39] our rise and his rise him hand in hand.
[00:09:42] We've covered him from the very
[00:09:43] beginning. Um you know not at the
[00:09:45] beginning not everyone was favorable to
[00:09:47] our coverage but uh they did eventually
[00:09:50] see the light. Um uh but that's another
[00:09:54] reason why I feel like we were so
[00:09:55] dangerous to US State Department because
[00:09:58] we quickly became in the English-
[00:10:01] speakaking world uh the the the largest
[00:10:05] African media platform reporting
[00:10:07] accurately on what's going on in the
[00:10:09] Sahal. You know, the mainstream media
[00:10:12] would had you believe that there's some
[00:10:14] sort of sickness in the Sahal. People
[00:10:16] are just, you know, attracted to many
[00:10:19] military uniforms. They won't talk about
[00:10:21] the economic conditions that led to the
[00:10:24] rise of these free leaders. They won't
[00:10:27] talk about the security conditions that
[00:10:30] led to the rise of these free leaders.
[00:10:32] The Sahal has become the epicenter of
[00:10:35] the so-called anti- uh and sorry of the
[00:10:38] so-called war on terror. Yet before the
[00:10:42] US and France started supporting these
[00:10:45] Sahalian states with terror, there was
[00:10:47] hardly any terrorism within the region.
[00:10:49] Since they've entered the frey,
[00:10:51] terrorism has has grown by 8 to 10,000%.
[00:10:55] Uh so the people are frustrated um and
[00:10:58] they said enough is enough. We need a
[00:11:00] different type of leadership leadership.
[00:11:02] And out of the ashes rose Ibraham chore
[00:11:05] in bikinas. Aim go. Aim go was obviously
[00:11:09] first in Mali and then finally Abd
[00:11:11] Rahmani in Nij.
[00:11:16] >> Incredible. And I think that it's this
[00:11:18] kind of coverage is so important because
[00:11:20] here in the US like you said anything
[00:11:22] that's happening in Africa has always
[00:11:23] looked at from like a tribal perspective
[00:11:25] or you know this famine or this drought
[00:11:29] or this whatever issue that the western
[00:11:32] corporate media is going to be covering
[00:11:34] is going to be through the lens of a of
[00:11:38] colonialism instead of looking at how
[00:11:40] western countries especially the United
[00:11:42] States and its military Afric
[00:11:47] um corporations that are operating in
[00:11:49] countries like uh Nigeria are
[00:11:52] effectively causing a lot of these
[00:11:55] issues and so modern day colonialism of
[00:11:59] course still exists in these countries.
[00:12:01] It's it's very very sad, but it's also
[00:12:03] inspiring because you've also shined a
[00:12:05] light on these resistance movements that
[00:12:08] are standing up to uh not just US
[00:12:11] colonialism, but also Israeli
[00:12:13] expansionism and influence in the region
[00:12:16] like in the Sahel. So, that's been quite
[00:12:18] uh inspiring to see. And I and I want to
[00:12:20] go get more into that in a bit, but I I
[00:12:22] want to turn to Allan because Allan um
[00:12:25] has been covering this big tech
[00:12:26] censorship um for press for a long time
[00:12:30] and he's uncovered a lot of the money
[00:12:32] trails, the Israeli influence, um the
[00:12:36] British influence even.
[00:12:38] Just how
[00:12:41] were they able to Allan, how was Anthony
[00:12:43] Blinkin able to maneuver his way into
[00:12:46] big tech in in such a way to shut down
[00:12:49] um African stream? Like t talk to us
[00:12:53] more about the mechanisms that were used
[00:12:54] to shut down African stream.
[00:12:57] >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean the first thing
[00:12:59] to say is the reason they targeted
[00:13:01] African stream is because of how they
[00:13:04] covered it. They're scared of what
[00:13:05] African Stream has to say. They're
[00:13:07] scared of the message that they were
[00:13:08] broadcasting to what was it between 30
[00:13:10] and 40 million people per month. African
[00:13:13] Stream was um reaching at its height.
[00:13:16] And so they went after it. They zapped
[00:13:18] it. They first tried to smear it as a
[00:13:21] propaganda outlet of of Moscow, which as
[00:13:24] Ahmed said is a very common tactic
[00:13:27] throughout the decades, trying to
[00:13:29] associate revolutionary leaders like
[00:13:32] Patrice Leumba or Nelson Mandela with
[00:13:34] somehow being puppets of the Kremlin.
[00:13:37] Um, it happens to black leaders in the
[00:13:39] United States as well. Remember all of
[00:13:41] the uh talk about Martin Luther King
[00:13:43] being a secret communist being, you
[00:13:45] know, ruled by Moscow. All of this is
[00:13:48] utter nonsense. And you know, it's it's
[00:13:49] even happening to mint press. We are
[00:13:51] constantly smeared as uh agents of
[00:13:54] Russia or Assad of uh secretly in the
[00:13:58] the pay of China or Venezuela or
[00:14:00] whatever um bet noir of the United
[00:14:03] States dur.
[00:14:06] But um this smear uh although it's
[00:14:09] completely factually inaccurate um
[00:14:12] really stuck. And the reason is is that
[00:14:15] over the past 10 years, big media social
[00:14:18] media platforms have become increasingly
[00:14:20] intertwined with the US national
[00:14:23] security state. After the 2016 election,
[00:14:26] people in Washington started to get very
[00:14:29] worried and deeply concerned about the
[00:14:31] power that social media and internet
[00:14:33] more generally alternative media can
[00:14:35] have on um influencing the public. It
[00:14:38] was clear that the uh powers that be
[00:14:41] didn't particularly want Donald Trump to
[00:14:42] get elected in 2016. They preferred
[00:14:45] Hillary Clinton because she was a more
[00:14:47] safe pair of hands. That's not because
[00:14:49] Trump is some radical outsider that's,
[00:14:51] you know, uh going to lead the
[00:14:52] revolution. No, he was just a bit more
[00:14:55] erratic. And what we've seen in the past
[00:14:57] 10 years is big um the big national
[00:15:01] security state players like the FBI,
[00:15:03] like the CIA, and like the NSA
[00:15:06] infiltrating their way into uh the big
[00:15:09] social media platforms, bolstering them,
[00:15:11] but also um drawing getting parachuted
[00:15:15] into very high positions, positions of
[00:15:17] power and influence uh which effectively
[00:15:21] allow them to control and dictate what
[00:15:23] everyone in the world sees in their
[00:15:25] social media feeds. And this is not just
[00:15:27] an American problem. This is true
[00:15:29] whether you're in Birmingham, Alabama or
[00:15:32] Botswana, Burundi or Bahrain. This is
[00:15:35] what's going on all around the world. So
[00:15:37] it's pretty much state censorship but on
[00:15:39] a global level. I'll give you a couple
[00:15:41] of examples. uh the person who is
[00:15:43] ultimately in charge at Facebook for
[00:15:46] content moderation
[00:15:48] ultimately who pulls the trigger on uh
[00:15:51] deciding what is allowed and what isn't
[00:15:53] in terms of content is a guy called
[00:15:55] Aaron Burman. Now, until 2019, Aaron
[00:15:59] Burman was one of the highest ranking
[00:16:00] members of the CIA until uh one day in
[00:16:04] the summer, he left his job at the CIA
[00:16:06] and was parachuted into this top
[00:16:08] position at Facebook, whereby he calls
[00:16:10] the shots for what the three billion
[00:16:12] users see and don't see in their news
[00:16:15] feeds. And this is a similar thing
[00:16:17] happening with Instagram, with Tik Tok,
[00:16:19] with Google. All of these platforms have
[00:16:22] had national security state members
[00:16:24] dropped in at these points because
[00:16:27] ultimately what we see uh in our news
[00:16:30] feeds is not random. Uh these are the
[00:16:32] results of algorithms and as we've seen
[00:16:34] with Elon Musk tweaking the algorithm in
[00:16:37] uh in Twitter constantly and suddenly it
[00:16:39] becomes a white nationalist overnight.
[00:16:41] These algorithms are not set in stone.
[00:16:43] They're not natural. They are actually
[00:16:45] programs written by humans and they
[00:16:47] reflect the interests of humans and
[00:16:50] organizations. And so the interest
[00:16:53] reflected when it comes to big social
[00:16:55] media nowadays is the interest of the US
[00:16:58] national security state. And that's why
[00:17:00] places like mint press are constantly
[00:17:03] deranked, de uh listed, demoted and
[00:17:06] sometimes deleted. And that's ultimately
[00:17:09] why African stream was also targeted
[00:17:11] because they just simply send the wrong
[00:17:13] message. Uh a message of revolution, a
[00:17:15] message of hope and a message that a
[00:17:17] better world is possible. And that is
[00:17:19] absolutely not something that people in
[00:17:21] Washington want people to be hearing.
[00:17:23] They do not want people inspired. They
[00:17:25] want people cowed, downtrodden, and
[00:17:28] thinking that this is the best of all
[00:17:30] possible worlds.
[00:17:32] >> And that's absolutely
[00:17:33] >> Can I just
[00:17:34] >> Yeah. Can I can I just add to that point
[00:17:36] because there'll be people watching
[00:17:38] saying, "Oh, there's other revolutionary
[00:17:41] media that haven't been taken down. So,
[00:17:42] why African Stream?" So, let me try and
[00:17:45] answer that question if I can. Um, what
[00:17:49] was unique about African Stream is I
[00:17:54] don't know how we did it. Um, but we
[00:17:56] managed to durate a list of very
[00:18:00] influential
[00:18:01] what we call Africans in America. what
[00:18:04] the mainstream calls African-American uh
[00:18:06] celebrities
[00:18:08] um who were following us. And this is
[00:18:10] this is who the Democratic Party in the
[00:18:13] leadup to an election, this is who they
[00:18:15] enlist because they feel like, you know,
[00:18:18] the African population in the US, they
[00:18:21] just need their their favorite celebrity
[00:18:23] to tell them who to vote for and that
[00:18:25] will win that will win them the the
[00:18:26] black vote. And and by and large, that
[00:18:29] does work. um this election it didn't
[00:18:31] work as much but by and large they did
[00:18:33] get the black vote so some so to some
[00:18:35] degree it did work um so I feel like the
[00:18:39] attack on African stream it happened two
[00:18:42] months before the election
[00:18:45] there were several attacks by I won't
[00:18:47] call them the left it's the liberal uh
[00:18:50] liberal elite media in the US uh so the
[00:18:53] first one was NBC uh which they said
[00:18:57] African stream is spreading
[00:18:59] disinformation to 40 million au
[00:19:02] African-Ameans.
[00:19:04] Uh and they said that and they were
[00:19:06] citing a report. Um but they never said
[00:19:11] they never showed one example of what
[00:19:13] disinformation we were we were
[00:19:14] spreading. However, the examples that
[00:19:17] they did give for for I think it's
[00:19:19] called the shade room and a few other
[00:19:21] media outlets that were mentioned in the
[00:19:22] report were all related to Joe Biden.
[00:19:25] were all related to Joe Biden and
[00:19:27] somewhat encouraging black people not to
[00:19:30] vote for Joe Biden because of, you know,
[00:19:32] the crime bill, because of his record,
[00:19:34] etc., etc. So, so, you know, that was
[00:19:37] the first uh kind of warning. And then
[00:19:41] we did another report um where we said
[00:19:45] it doesn't matter who gets elected in
[00:19:47] November,
[00:19:49] US drones are going to rain down on
[00:19:51] Somalia. And so we did a report from
[00:19:54] George W. Bush, Barack Obama, Donald
[00:19:58] Trump to Joe Biden. We listed how many
[00:20:00] drone strikes each president had rained
[00:20:02] down on on um on um Somalia. Um and we
[00:20:07] said that whatever happens with the US
[00:20:10] election, drones are going to rain down
[00:20:12] on Somalia. So Voice of America, which
[00:20:14] is state funded and openly state funded,
[00:20:17] came after us um with two pieces. Uh, so
[00:20:21] they did a video about us. Uh, you can
[00:20:23] find the video on YouTube. It's
[00:20:24] hilarious because they've got every
[00:20:27] single comment is African stream was the
[00:20:29] truth. You guys don't know what you're
[00:20:31] talking about. They got absolutely
[00:20:32] ratioed and then they did an article.
[00:20:35] Um, now what was interesting about the
[00:20:37] Voice of America piece, the first piece
[00:20:40] by NBC, we did a rebuttal. Um, and our
[00:20:44] rebuttal was so popular and went so
[00:20:46] viral that the journalist that wrote the
[00:20:48] article had to put his Instagram on
[00:20:50] private. So when the Voice of America
[00:20:53] did their piece,
[00:20:55] um, the journalist didn't want to use
[00:20:57] their name. So they put one name
[00:21:00] initially and she must have contacted a
[00:21:02] manager. Then another name appeared next
[00:21:05] to the article, but we took a screenshot
[00:21:07] and we found out it was a journalist
[00:21:09] based in Kenya. Um so it it showed that
[00:21:13] that journalists were even afraid to
[00:21:15] come after us because we had such a big
[00:21:17] following because we had such an
[00:21:18] influential following particularly
[00:21:20] amongst uh uh you know what they call
[00:21:23] black Twitter that that that that black
[00:21:26] uh the African uh uh African in America
[00:21:30] demographic especially the celebrities.
[00:21:32] Um, so I think they would have carried
[00:21:35] on with these hit pieces if they could
[00:21:37] have find willing mercenaries, but I
[00:21:40] think they ran out of willing
[00:21:41] mercenaries because we kept doing a
[00:21:43] rebuttal every time that we got
[00:21:44] attacked. So that's when I feel like it
[00:21:46] was escalated to uh Anthony Blinkin for
[00:21:50] him to say what he said. And then after
[00:21:52] he said what he said, within
[00:21:55] 24 hours, there was an article by the
[00:21:58] Stanford Observatory.
[00:22:00] In the article by Stamford Observatory,
[00:22:03] they had gone through all of our
[00:22:04] profiles, the cameramen, mine. I used to
[00:22:07] work at Press TV, cameraman used to work
[00:22:09] for CTG. It was a real deep dive.
[00:22:11] There's literally no way she could have
[00:22:13] wrote they could have wrote that article
[00:22:15] within that time frame. It was clear
[00:22:17] that this the State Department had
[00:22:19] contacted the journalist beforehand and
[00:22:23] said, "We're going to make this
[00:22:24] announcement on Friday. We need you to
[00:22:26] have an article ready uh by the Monday."
[00:22:29] And another thing that was revealing is
[00:22:31] the numbers that she quoted us or the
[00:22:34] YouTube, you know, they they said how
[00:22:35] many subscribers we had on each
[00:22:36] platform. The number that she quoted us
[00:22:38] for YouTube was less than it was when
[00:22:42] Anthony Blinkin made the announcement.
[00:22:44] So clearly she took her data from a
[00:22:47] period uh before the announcement, but
[00:22:50] the announce but the article was meant
[00:22:51] to be a reaction to the announcement.
[00:22:54] So, how do you make how do you pre-write
[00:22:55] an article
[00:22:57] um as a reaction to an announcement
[00:22:59] before the announcement's made unless
[00:23:01] there's some sort of coordination? Um,
[00:23:03] so I think that's it's very important
[00:23:05] and if we think back to the elections,
[00:23:07] this was the time where at Democratic
[00:23:10] Party conventions and events, they would
[00:23:13] see someone wearing a hijab, a
[00:23:15] headscarf, someone that looked like they
[00:23:17] were from West Asia, what they call the
[00:23:19] Middle East. um or you know have any
[00:23:22] sort of uh symbolism related to
[00:23:24] Palestine and it would stop them from
[00:23:26] going into the event because what would
[00:23:28] happen is people would go into the event
[00:23:30] they would shout Camela Harris you're
[00:23:32] war criminal Joe Biden you're war
[00:23:34] criminal and so on and that would go
[00:23:36] viral and that was that was that was
[00:23:38] seen to be damaging the Democrats
[00:23:41] campaign and we were constantly covering
[00:23:43] that stuff and also obviously making the
[00:23:45] connections uh between what's going on
[00:23:47] in the continent as well as what's
[00:23:49] happening uh uh you know Camela Harris's
[00:23:51] record in locking up black and brown
[00:23:54] people and referring to herself as the
[00:23:56] top cop. So all of that meant that we
[00:23:59] were seen as an a threat at a key
[00:24:02] critical time before the US elections.
[00:24:04] And one more thing that I'll add, if
[00:24:06] anyone has saw Joe Rogan's interview
[00:24:09] with Mark Zuckerberg,
[00:24:11] um I'd strongly advise you to to to to
[00:24:13] watch it because in that interview, you
[00:24:16] see how petty the Biden administration
[00:24:19] was when it came to censorship. The
[00:24:21] Zuckerberg is saying they would call me
[00:24:23] about they'd call me about everything.
[00:24:26] There was a Tom Cruz uh meme that went
[00:24:29] viral and someone from the
[00:24:30] administration said that you need to
[00:24:32] take this down. So if you think they're
[00:24:34] threatened by a meme,
[00:24:36] >> you only have to imagine what something
[00:24:38] like Mint Press represents, what
[00:24:41] something like African Stream
[00:24:42] represents, what something like Grayzone
[00:24:45] and some of these other platforms
[00:24:47] represent.
[00:24:48] >> And it should also be said that only
[00:24:50] hours after Blinken made this speech,
[00:24:52] right, that your Instagram, your Tik
[00:24:54] Tok, your social medias were all
[00:24:57] completely deleted and uh your Twitter
[00:24:59] was demonetized. And this happened in a
[00:25:01] period of just hours after Blinken made
[00:25:03] that speech. So it's clear that you know
[00:25:06] they are totally taking their queue from
[00:25:08] the US State Department here.
[00:25:10] >> Yeah. There was no there was no process.
[00:25:13] You know it's funny because they say you
[00:25:15] violated community guidelines.
[00:25:18] >> Okay. What what community guidelines?
[00:25:20] They don't even say
[00:25:21] >> we've all received that message before.
[00:25:24] >> Yeah. You violated community guidelines.
[00:25:27] Your account So YouTube was the first.
[00:25:28] you violated community guidelines. Your
[00:25:30] account's been deleted. And then came
[00:25:32] the kicker. Uh you don't have you can't
[00:25:35] appeal this decision.
[00:25:38] Yeah. This was pushed by a so-called
[00:25:39] Democrat administration.
[00:25:41] >> Very Democratic. Very Democratic.
[00:25:44] >> Well, I I would say, and you know,
[00:25:45] Allan's been around for working with M
[00:25:48] Press for a while now. I would say the
[00:25:50] most censorship we faced on social media
[00:25:52] was when a Democrat was in office. I
[00:25:54] mean, when Obama was president and Joe
[00:25:58] Biden was his vice president
[00:26:00] and um the United States was backing a
[00:26:04] uh Saudi backed uh blockade of Yemen, I
[00:26:07] mean, Mint Press was literally one of
[00:26:10] the only media outlets covering um the
[00:26:13] starvation campaign and the famine that
[00:26:16] was taking place inside of Yemen
[00:26:19] and US complicity in that, how the
[00:26:22] United States was selling Saudi Arabia,
[00:26:24] you know, record number of weapons. We
[00:26:27] were refueling Saudi jets before they
[00:26:29] were bombing hospitals and schools and
[00:26:32] uh grain silos and destroying all the
[00:26:34] farms. How Saudi Arabia was
[00:26:36] assassinating Yemeni fishermen. And it
[00:26:40] was our coverage that was targeted in
[00:26:42] censorship campaigns. were constantly
[00:26:44] getting our posts on social media taken
[00:26:47] down for violating community uh
[00:26:50] guidelines because we showed images of
[00:26:52] starving children literally skeletal
[00:26:55] Yemen children. We were showing those
[00:26:57] images and we were getting violations
[00:26:59] and those images were taken down. Carlos
[00:27:01] Latu, our um cartoonist, he would do
[00:27:05] cartoons about depicting, you know, the
[00:27:07] genocide in Yemen. And we would just
[00:27:10] every day we would have one new um
[00:27:13] community guideline violation and every
[00:27:16] day on our website even we would have a
[00:27:18] community guideline violation for, you
[00:27:20] know, because we showed too many graphic
[00:27:21] images. like this is all BS and it was
[00:27:25] it basically created like the set up the
[00:27:28] stage for the kind of censorship we're
[00:27:30] seeing today. I really really believe
[00:27:32] that and in that time that's when we
[00:27:34] were actually targeted by um
[00:27:39] by Google's project owl. So when we say
[00:27:42] we're facing censorship and we're you
[00:27:44] know we're being demonetized and we're
[00:27:46] being de you know uh dellisted or
[00:27:48] whatever like it's because we are like
[00:27:51] we were and have been and are still are
[00:27:56] being deranked. Um before the uh Trump
[00:28:00] and Hillary Clinton election, Mint Press
[00:28:03] in any news search result was one of the
[00:28:05] first five links you would find in
[00:28:08] Google News. They deranked us. They
[00:28:11] removed us off of We're still on Google
[00:28:13] News, you know, they didn't take us off
[00:28:15] completely, but they deranked us um to
[00:28:18] page like five. Nobody click clicks next
[00:28:21] next to page five. Nobody goes that far.
[00:28:24] You're looking at the first page. So,
[00:28:26] who's on the first page now? The New
[00:28:28] York Times, the Washington Post, Wall
[00:28:30] Street Journal, CNN, MSNBC.
[00:28:34] That's who they brought back up to the
[00:28:37] to the top page. Whereas at one point,
[00:28:39] Mint Press was literally competing with
[00:28:41] all of those media outlets and we were
[00:28:43] getting so much traffic on our website
[00:28:45] and they saw Mint Press and our coverage
[00:28:48] of US imperialism as a threat and
[00:28:51] because we were also shining a light on
[00:28:53] resistance movements and you know
[00:28:55] countries and movements pushing back
[00:28:57] against US imperialism, they deranked
[00:28:59] us. So, you know, obviously we haven't
[00:29:02] been taken down per se, but we have been
[00:29:04] the target uh of big tech. Um, and I we
[00:29:09] do believe it is at the behest of
[00:29:11] possibly the State Department and other
[00:29:13] places. I mean, look what happened to
[00:29:15] our GoFundMe
[00:29:16] uh fundraisers. They were taken down and
[00:29:20] we were banned from GoFundMe and we were
[00:29:23] also banned from PayPal. I believe Allan
[00:29:25] was also targeted um from PayPal after
[00:29:29] our coverage on Ukraine because that
[00:29:32] coverage was was going viral and it we
[00:29:34] were exposing most of it was Allen's
[00:29:36] coverage we were exposing um what was it
[00:29:40] what was the outlet called Alan?
[00:29:42] Yeah, I mean you're correct. That's the
[00:29:44] Kiev independent you're talking about.
[00:29:46] And uh yeah, I mean our debanking came
[00:29:50] just a few days after we now know that
[00:29:54] other journalists were contacting the UK
[00:29:57] secret services and contacting the
[00:29:59] famous Biden disinformation
[00:30:02] to try to get us deplatformed or some
[00:30:04] sort of response uh from Western
[00:30:07] governments. So, you know, it doesn't
[00:30:09] take a mathematician to put two and two
[00:30:11] together here. Yeah, absolutely. So, and
[00:30:13] I don't want to, you know, derail too
[00:30:15] much on this topic, um, because, you
[00:30:17] know, we've been talking about this for
[00:30:18] a long time, but, uh, when we say we're
[00:30:20] being censored and deranked and all of
[00:30:22] these things, it's cuz it really is
[00:30:24] happening. And we are up against a
[00:30:26] multi-rillion dollar, uh, corporate
[00:30:29] media machine. So, we were still here,
[00:30:31] Ahmed, you're still here and you're
[00:30:33] you're still doing amazing things, and
[00:30:34] we'll talk about that um, shortly after.
[00:30:37] But, you know, we still have to push
[00:30:39] back and fight back. Um, and so, and
[00:30:43] speaking of the Democratic Party, I do
[00:30:45] believe that is why Sean King was
[00:30:47] actually completely deleted off of Meta
[00:30:50] Platforms. Um, Sean King is like a civil
[00:30:53] rights activist and he's been covering
[00:30:56] police brutality for I mean two decades
[00:30:59] and issue with issues with social
[00:31:01] justice in the United States. And he
[00:31:03] amassed millions of followers across all
[00:31:06] platforms. On Instagram alone, he had
[00:31:09] like almost two million followers. On
[00:31:10] Facebook, he had almost two million
[00:31:12] followers. And right with this last
[00:31:14] election, he was deleted. I mean, Ahmed,
[00:31:18] do you think that Sean King was removed
[00:31:22] for a similar reasons? Because, you
[00:31:25] know, he's been quite influential in the
[00:31:27] African-American space in the United
[00:31:29] States. And, you know, I I I've been
[00:31:31] following him for a long time. He's done
[00:31:33] really great work on um you know police
[00:31:35] brutality coverage.
[00:31:37] >> Definitely. Definitely. But I'll give
[00:31:39] more context.
[00:31:40] >> Yeah.
[00:31:41] >> Um I believe there's acceptable
[00:31:44] parameters of what a a African in
[00:31:49] America can talk about. Now you can talk
[00:31:52] about police brutality. You can talk
[00:31:54] about race. You can talk about race
[00:31:57] relations. But as soon as you start to
[00:31:59] connect the dots with imperialism, with
[00:32:02] other struggles around the world, that's
[00:32:04] when you become a danger. Yeah. So it's
[00:32:06] not a coincidence. If we if we trace
[00:32:08] back the history of Malcolm X, what was
[00:32:11] Malcolm doing before he got
[00:32:12] assassinated? He was visiting African
[00:32:14] nations and he was saying to them, "We
[00:32:18] are the same as you. We were kidnapped
[00:32:20] from this continent, but we are the same
[00:32:23] people. We want you to lobby on our
[00:32:26] behalf and turn this from a civil rights
[00:32:28] issue into a human rights issue. Yeah.
[00:32:32] And we want African states to lobby on
[00:32:35] our behalf of the diaspora who are
[00:32:38] struggling because when Chinese people
[00:32:41] are are troubled outside of China, the
[00:32:44] Chinese government acts. So they so he
[00:32:46] was advocating for Africa African states
[00:32:49] to advocate on behalf of African people
[00:32:51] within the US. Now Sha King as you said
[00:32:54] he's been talking about police brut
[00:32:56] brutality and racism in the US but in
[00:32:58] the last
[00:32:59] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[00:33:00] >> few years he started talking about
[00:33:02] Palestine started talking about you know
[00:33:04] the the the the what happened in in the
[00:33:07] place where you're residing in Minnesota
[00:33:09] George Floyd that training that training
[00:33:12] that the the the police were were
[00:33:15] practicing they'd learned from from uh
[00:33:18] the the occupation forces in Israel.
[00:33:20] That's when he became dangerous. Yeah. I
[00:33:23] think had he have have kind of stuck to
[00:33:26] domestic issues and domestic issues
[00:33:28] only, he probably still would have had a
[00:33:30] platform. And I also feel like that's
[00:33:32] where we had an issue as well at African
[00:33:34] stream. You know, when we used to talk
[00:33:36] about um uh Palestine and Gaz and what
[00:33:39] was going on and connecting it to
[00:33:41] settler colonial projects that happened
[00:33:43] in the continent of Africa as well as in
[00:33:45] the north of Ireland, you know, that's
[00:33:48] that that's dangerous. that's dangerous
[00:33:50] because that that brings a new awakening
[00:33:53] and it has the the the possibility of
[00:33:56] uniting people in struggles. Um and and
[00:33:59] so I think it's more to do with not just
[00:34:02] his criticism of the Democratic party
[00:34:05] but also him connecting the dot.
[00:34:07] >> Yeah.
[00:34:07] >> Um and and understanding that the the
[00:34:11] the African people in the US are
[00:34:13] internally colonized. you know, they me
[00:34:16] they didn't they didn't migrate to the
[00:34:18] US with a passport on a tourist visa.
[00:34:22] They were kidnapped, taken hostage and
[00:34:24] transported across the Atlantic Ocean
[00:34:27] and then they were put in bondage.
[00:34:29] That's the history that's the history of
[00:34:31] the the African experience in the US.
[00:34:34] What they've tried to do post Obama is
[00:34:36] they've tried to convince African people
[00:34:38] to American what Ajam Mubaraka said
[00:34:41] calls Americanizing the Negro. you know,
[00:34:44] getting them on board with the American
[00:34:47] patriotic imperialist project. Um, and
[00:34:50] people like Sean King and others were
[00:34:53] saying, "No, this if there's why would
[00:34:56] you be patriotic to an imperialist
[00:34:58] project? This is what this country does
[00:35:00] around the world.
[00:35:02] um you're better off connecting with
[00:35:05] with the struggles of the people around
[00:35:07] the world because you have more in
[00:35:09] common with colonized people as an
[00:35:11] internal colonized group of people in
[00:35:14] the in America than you do with the
[00:35:17] elites and the the the the imperialist
[00:35:20] war machine that runs you.
[00:35:22] >> About Sean King,
[00:35:25] I agree with you. I think right towards
[00:35:26] the end, right before he got banned, he
[00:35:29] was collaborating with Mitt Press, with
[00:35:32] African Stream about a lot of issues
[00:35:34] that dealt with um US imperialism and
[00:35:38] other nations and started to cover more
[00:35:40] foreign policy and kind of connecting
[00:35:42] the dots about how we're all um you
[00:35:45] know, people here that are oppressed
[00:35:47] have more in common with people that are
[00:35:48] oppressed overseas. and he was covering,
[00:35:51] you know, how uh Israel was training
[00:35:54] police forces in African countries and
[00:35:57] contributing to that oppression
[00:35:59] oppression there. But, you know, we've
[00:36:02] been we've been talking about this issue
[00:36:03] of censorship um for a while now. So
[00:36:06] people who do follow Mitt Press um know
[00:36:08] um Mint Press has actually been leading
[00:36:10] the charge in the coverage about big
[00:36:12] tech um and the inner workings and how
[00:36:15] they're collaborating with the US
[00:36:17] government to crack down on disscent and
[00:36:20] alternative media. But I want to uh move
[00:36:22] back into uh resistance movements within
[00:36:26] Africa. One leader that has drawn
[00:36:29] special attention is Ibrahim Cher of
[00:36:32] Borkina Faso. Since coming to power in
[00:36:36] 2022, he has certainly struck a
[00:36:39] revolutionary tone, nationalizing key
[00:36:42] industries and expelling French forces.
[00:36:46] What have you made of Charor Ahmed? And
[00:36:49] to what extents is to what extent is he
[00:36:51] the real deal?
[00:36:55] He is the real deal. Um, and he's a
[00:36:57] fantastic leader. He's very charismatic
[00:37:00] and you know, you need that charisma.
[00:37:03] Um, but what what the comrades in the
[00:37:05] Sahal keep telling me and emphasizing is
[00:37:08] it's not just about him. You know, it's
[00:37:10] the alliance of Sahal states. There's
[00:37:13] three fantastic leaders. Um, because
[00:37:16] he's good-looking, because he's
[00:37:18] charismatic, you know, he's muscular,
[00:37:20] he's he's the one that's getting all the
[00:37:22] attention, but all three of them are
[00:37:24] doing fantastic stuff. And and you know,
[00:37:27] this revolution was really started up in
[00:37:29] Miley. Um, you know, they were the first
[00:37:32] to kick out French troops, they were the
[00:37:35] first to kick out French media. Um, and
[00:37:38] then obviously Pikina Faso uh followed
[00:37:40] and then Nia followed. Um, but this
[00:37:43] comes out of desire. It's it's not a
[00:37:47] top-down movement. This is a movement
[00:37:50] from the grassroots.
[00:37:52] uh these three regions have been
[00:37:54] devastated by terrorism
[00:37:57] um and devastated by neoc colonialism.
[00:38:00] Uh these are some of the poorest
[00:38:02] countries within the continent. So Nijer
[00:38:05] before the coup in 2023 was ranked as
[00:38:08] the second poorest country in the world
[00:38:12] since the coups happened since they take
[00:38:15] control of the uranium and some of the
[00:38:17] mining sector.
[00:38:19] It's no longer the second poorest
[00:38:21] country in the world and it's actually
[00:38:22] one of the fastest growing economies in
[00:38:23] the con not only in the continent but in
[00:38:25] the planet. In in uh in 2024
[00:38:30] it had potential uh uh it had sorry GDP
[00:38:34] growth between 11 and 12%. Uh Bikina
[00:38:37] Faso also had GDP growth around 8%. So
[00:38:42] this goes to show that when you stop
[00:38:45] being middle management for colonialism,
[00:38:48] when you stop just being a conduit for
[00:38:51] the extraction of resources out of your
[00:38:54] country, then of course we have
[00:38:57] everything that we need around us. These
[00:38:59] are not poor countries. These are
[00:39:02] countries that are overexploited.
[00:39:04] Yeah. How can a country like Bikinafasa
[00:39:07] that has all the gold mines? How can a
[00:39:09] country like uh Nijair which is rich in
[00:39:13] not just uranium but in copper and other
[00:39:15] materials how can they be so poor unless
[00:39:18] they were their resources were used to
[00:39:20] enrich others um and and the people on
[00:39:23] the continent understood this you know
[00:39:26] they described the African as if we're
[00:39:28] were some sort of docile passive
[00:39:31] creature uh that we see you know these
[00:39:35] planes these fancy planes come in and
[00:39:38] fly out and we see all these foreign
[00:39:40] diplomats come in and fly out and we
[00:39:42] don't see the conditions, the living
[00:39:43] conditions of our people change and we
[00:39:46] don't connect the dots. Of course, we
[00:39:47] connect the dots. We understand that
[00:39:50] these countries gained flag
[00:39:52] independence. They never really became
[00:39:54] sovereign independent nations which are
[00:39:56] governing for the people. Um, and that's
[00:39:59] what these revolutions represent. But in
[00:40:02] Bikina Faso in particular, you know,
[00:40:04] he's done some fantastic stuff,
[00:40:07] infrastructure projects, set up
[00:40:09] factories, tomato factories. He's
[00:40:12] encouraged businesses to come. So,
[00:40:14] Patriotic, Bikina Bay have come back and
[00:40:17] set up businesses. Um, he's paved roads.
[00:40:21] Uh, he's come there's a there's
[00:40:22] ambitious target of paving 50,000
[00:40:25] kilometers of road in the country by
[00:40:27] 2029.
[00:40:29] Um he's enlisted volunteers to to to
[00:40:33] help defend the country and people are
[00:40:35] enthusiastically doing that. He's made
[00:40:38] people believe that this is our fight.
[00:40:41] This is our fight for sovereignty. This
[00:40:43] is our fight for independence and this
[00:40:45] is our fight against uh against
[00:40:47] terrorism. So right outside the
[00:40:49] presidential palace, you have a group of
[00:40:52] volunteers that sleep there day and
[00:40:55] night defending the president.
[00:40:58] Yeah. um you know so so they know that
[00:41:02] he is embarked on a revolutionary
[00:41:04] journey and as part of that
[00:41:07] revolutionary journey there is risks and
[00:41:10] there's already been assassination
[00:41:11] attempts on his life because of what
[00:41:14] this person is trying to achieve but he
[00:41:17] is part of a collective within Bikina
[00:41:19] Fasa and Bikina Fasa is is part of a
[00:41:21] collective within within the alliance of
[00:41:24] Sahal states so this is a movement and
[00:41:26] the movement will only Well, uh, in
[00:41:29] Ghana, we've just had elections in
[00:41:31] Ghana. Uh, Muhammad has just been
[00:41:34] reelected. Um, not reelected. This is
[00:41:37] his second term, but there's been an
[00:41:40] 8-year uh, Nano Kafu Adu regime in
[00:41:44] between. And what's interesting, I lived
[00:41:46] in Ghana during Muhammad's first term,
[00:41:49] and he wasn't speaking like a
[00:41:51] revolutionary there. Uh but uh during
[00:41:54] his inauguration, Captain Ibrahim Choué
[00:41:57] came and he got the loud loudest
[00:41:59] reception of any leader and you could
[00:42:02] literally see it on his face. He was
[00:42:04] kind of looking at this young man
[00:42:06] thinking h
[00:42:09] I you know I want to get this type of
[00:42:11] reception. I want to get this type of
[00:42:14] agilation. So since then Muhammad has
[00:42:17] gone on a radical program in Ghana. And
[00:42:20] so that's what's so impressive about
[00:42:22] Ibraham Chore. He's not only influencing
[00:42:25] people like myself and the younger
[00:42:27] generation, but he's also influencing
[00:42:29] old statesmen uh that at least now
[00:42:33] trying to adopt revolutionary language,
[00:42:35] anti-imperialist language, uh you know,
[00:42:38] nationalist language, nationalist in a
[00:42:40] positive sense uh cuz nationalism in
[00:42:43] country in in countries in the global
[00:42:45] south is completely different to the
[00:42:47] type of nationalism that we see in
[00:42:48] places like Italy and the UK and now in
[00:42:51] the US. This is nationalism that
[00:42:53] encourages people to fight for their
[00:42:55] sovereignty and to fight against the the
[00:42:58] over extanding hand of imperialism.
[00:43:03] >> Yeah. Nationalism in America means like
[00:43:06] racism
[00:43:08] and supporting war and supporting um
[00:43:12] overthrowing governments whereas
[00:43:14] nationalism in the global south is
[00:43:16] supporting
[00:43:18] uh worker-led movements. sovereignty
[00:43:22] and um nationalizing resources
[00:43:26] um pushing back against US and Western
[00:43:29] imperialism without a doubt. Um I want
[00:43:31] to play this video. Um I know you guys
[00:43:33] are not going to be able to hear, but
[00:43:34] I'm going to play this video and I'll
[00:43:35] say what I'm playing. It's of Ibrahim
[00:43:37] Trayor
[00:43:38] um
[00:43:40] talking about um the wealth in Africa.
[00:43:43] So I'm going to play one second.
[00:43:56] General
[00:43:58] the
[00:44:00] and abundance.
[00:44:17] All
[00:44:46] right. So that was Ibrahim Chore talking
[00:44:49] about how Africa is so rich, has
[00:44:53] abundant sun, soil and resources and yet
[00:44:57] African leaders are reaching out to
[00:45:01] Western nations and countries for help.
[00:45:04] And why is that? And he wants to change
[00:45:07] that outcome for Africa. And so this man
[00:45:10] obviously needs to be protected at all
[00:45:12] costs just like any other revolutionary
[00:45:15] leader that rises from the ashes to
[00:45:18] defend their nation to defend their
[00:45:20] resources
[00:45:22] to defend their land from occupiers.
[00:45:25] Um, you know, I don't want to
[00:45:30] be the give a grim out out outlook
[00:45:33] to what could happen to Ibrahim Tori,
[00:45:35] but history does tell us that, you know,
[00:45:37] the US and other Western countries like
[00:45:39] Great Britain and France don't take
[00:45:42] these words very lightly and there could
[00:45:45] be things happening on the ground um to
[00:45:48] promote regime change for example and
[00:45:51] that's why you mentioned like they you
[00:45:53] know there's a lot of guards guarding
[00:45:55] his palace or not his palace, his home,
[00:45:57] excuse me, guarding his home, guarding
[00:45:59] him. Uh because people are aware on the
[00:46:02] ground uh to what extent the United
[00:46:04] States and these western countries will
[00:46:05] go to overthrow, assassinate and to
[00:46:09] fulment maybe like a coup on the ground.
[00:46:11] Do you see that? Do you see that as a
[00:46:13] possibility um in the near future for
[00:46:16] Ibrahim uh Trayori? Either one of you
[00:46:18] guys can answer this question.
[00:46:21] >> I'll jump in just quickly if you don't
[00:46:23] mind, Alex. Sorry. Um I think they're
[00:46:26] going to have to try really hard to do
[00:46:28] that because they put out the feelers
[00:46:32] with uh the head of Afric
[00:46:36] um forget his name now. Names escaped
[00:46:38] me. Um uh that he
[00:46:42] >> General Michael Langley who you're
[00:46:43] talking about?
[00:46:44] >> Yes. Yes. Thank you. General Lang uh
[00:46:47] Michael Langley when he when he made
[00:46:49] this ridiculous statement uh where he
[00:46:51] said that Ibraham Ché is using the
[00:46:56] country's gold reserves for his private
[00:46:59] security. Yeah. Uh it's such a it's such
[00:47:02] a ridiculous thing to say because
[00:47:04] firstly he's the president of a
[00:47:05] sovereign nation. Secondly, there's been
[00:47:08] several assassination attempts on him.
[00:47:10] So using the using money the state's
[00:47:13] resources
[00:47:15] uh for security is a legitimate thing to
[00:47:17] do. Has anyone seen the US president how
[00:47:19] much is spent on his security? Whenever
[00:47:22] they fly whenever US president flies
[00:47:24] somewhere there's always like how many
[00:47:27] accompanying Fighter jets and
[00:47:30] helicopters and whatnot. How much does
[00:47:31] that cost? Does that not come out of the
[00:47:33] state budget? So it was a ridiculous
[00:47:34] thing to say anyway. But what was
[00:47:36] brilliant and actually in my 36 years on
[00:47:40] earth, it was the proudest moment I've
[00:47:42] had as an African was the mobilization
[00:47:45] that happened around the world. We had
[00:47:48] protests in London, in Jamaica, in the
[00:47:52] US, in Spain, in France, literally in in
[00:47:58] uh in Nigeria there was a protest, but
[00:48:00] before they could before they could get
[00:48:01] going, they got arrested. Um uh but in
[00:48:05] South Africa literally the whole African
[00:48:08] global community came out and that was
[00:48:11] of that small thing that General Michael
[00:48:14] Langley said. Now imagine if they were
[00:48:17] to dare, you know, try put this person
[00:48:19] on house arrest or god forbid try take
[00:48:22] him out. There would be riots in every
[00:48:25] major city in the world. Um so I think
[00:48:28] that was a little feeler that they put
[00:48:29] out. Let let Michael Langley say
[00:48:31] something. let our uncle Tom um you know
[00:48:35] house negro say something. Let's see how
[00:48:37] it how it plays out. And they got an
[00:48:39] emphatic response by the global African
[00:48:42] community.
[00:48:46] It's interesting the way you framed that
[00:48:47] question, manar about, you know, a coup
[00:48:49] in the near future because there was
[00:48:51] actually a coup attempt that Trrowy
[00:48:53] survived in the near past which happened
[00:48:55] in April and it was just days after
[00:48:58] General Langley uh spoke before the
[00:49:00] Senate and accused Trrowery of allowing
[00:49:04] Russia and China both to gain a foothold
[00:49:07] in Africa through Burkina Faso, which is
[00:49:09] actually kind of a similar accusation as
[00:49:12] uh African Stream and Bmpress gets
[00:49:14] thrown at them constantly that we're,
[00:49:17] you know, the dupes of foreign powers.
[00:49:19] And yet, only a few days after Langley
[00:49:21] said this, um there was a potentially a
[00:49:25] foreign orchestrated coup attempt in the
[00:49:27] country that uh did not succeed because
[00:49:30] um it was found out quickly and there
[00:49:32] was also a very uh large popular
[00:49:35] presence against that. So, you know,
[00:49:37] frankly, this is the sort of thing you
[00:49:39] have to deal with if you are a
[00:49:40] revolutionary leader. Fidel Castro
[00:49:42] famously he survived more than 600 uh
[00:49:46] American attempts on his life during his
[00:49:48] lifetime and died uh at an old age. Uh
[00:49:52] President Nicholas Maduro and before him
[00:49:54] President Hugo Chavez in Venezuela had
[00:49:56] to survive multiple coup attempts which
[00:49:58] I know actually ahmed knows a fair
[00:50:00] amount about as well. Um so this is just
[00:50:03] part for the course when you are a
[00:50:05] revolutionary leader. If you stand up to
[00:50:08] uh the United States, expect uh to have
[00:50:10] to dodge some punches.
[00:50:16] 100 100%. It's the there's a famous
[00:50:19] quote by Samora Michelle um uh where he
[00:50:23] says,
[00:50:25] "If they praise me, know that I betrayed
[00:50:28] you.
[00:50:30] And if they talk
[00:50:32] and if they talk about me bad, know that
[00:50:34] I was I served you well. Um so the these
[00:50:38] guys know what they're what they're
[00:50:40] getting into. Um and that's why, you
[00:50:43] know, we love it. Uh and we completely
[00:50:46] understand it, but you know, he doesn't
[00:50:47] go into a meeting without the without
[00:50:49] the gun holster on display. Uh so some
[00:50:53] people say it's a bit disrespectful, but
[00:50:55] no, we understand. We've had too many
[00:50:56] leaders assassinated. Go into every
[00:50:59] single meeting with that gun strapped to
[00:51:02] your waist. Uh that leave leave no leave
[00:51:06] nothing unturned.
[00:51:08] >> I mean they they tried to disarm, you
[00:51:10] know, the Black Panthers. They were
[00:51:12] always, you know, showing their their
[00:51:14] rifles and their their guns. People look
[00:51:16] at that and say, "Oh, they're violent."
[00:51:18] But actually, it was in self-defense
[00:51:19] because so many African-American leaders
[00:51:21] were assassinated and targeted.
[00:51:24] >> Yeah. And on a national level, of
[00:51:26] course, uh it was only when uh Libyan
[00:51:29] leader uh Colonel Gaddafi actually gave
[00:51:31] up his uh weapons of mass destruction
[00:51:34] and his forces that he was attacked by
[00:51:35] NATO and overthrown in 2011. So there's
[00:51:38] uh there's a lesson there as well.
[00:51:41] >> Yeah. And I brought I brought I brought
[00:51:43] up the Black Panthers. I know it's not
[00:51:45] an a foreign uh policy um story, but
[00:51:48] it's like the same struggle here that
[00:51:50] many people can relate to in the United
[00:51:52] States when looking at, you know,
[00:51:53] revolutionary leaders. Why are they
[00:51:55] holding their rifles and their guns and
[00:51:57] why, you know, why is that? It's because
[00:52:00] they are the target of these
[00:52:01] assassination campaigns. Um, and you
[00:52:05] know, I wish we had so much more much
[00:52:06] more time to talk about all of these
[00:52:08] issues, but let's let's move on to um to
[00:52:12] talk about Gaza because it's such a
[00:52:14] horrific genocide. All genocides are
[00:52:17] horrific obviously, but you know, this
[00:52:18] one's being live streamed in 4K, this
[00:52:20] genocide in Gaza, and it's like every
[00:52:23] single day that goes by when you think
[00:52:25] you've just seen the worst to come out
[00:52:27] of Gaza, it just keeps getting worse and
[00:52:30] worse and worse. And you know, we've
[00:52:33] obviously covered a lot of uh war issues
[00:52:36] in the past in our in nearly 14 years uh
[00:52:40] being a media outlet in the United
[00:52:41] States, but this one is obviously very
[00:52:44] close to home to myself, especially I'm
[00:52:46] I'm Palestinian American. I am a
[00:52:48] survivor of Israeli occupation and
[00:52:50] apartheid. But what's happening in Gaza
[00:52:53] is something that we in the West Bank or
[00:52:56] in Jerusalem and alud have never really
[00:52:58] seen this extent of uh bloodshed. It's
[00:53:01] completely horrific. Um but for a lot of
[00:53:05] us that are following this, we've, you
[00:53:08] know, have been have felt a little bit
[00:53:10] of hope coming actually out of Africa
[00:53:12] because much of the strongest resistance
[00:53:15] to the Israeli genocide in Gaz is
[00:53:17] actually coming from South Africa. South
[00:53:20] Africa is leading a case at the
[00:53:22] international uh court of justice
[00:53:25] against Israel and has been backed by a
[00:53:28] number of African countries including
[00:53:30] Zimbabwe including Algeria, Namibia and
[00:53:34] the Koros. So what is the status um of
[00:53:39] this case Ahmed and why is it South
[00:53:41] Africa specifically that is leading the
[00:53:43] international struggle against apartheid
[00:53:45] Israel and its genocide?
[00:53:49] Um obviously there's the the history. Um
[00:53:54] so there's two things. Firstly, the
[00:53:57] South Africans recognize what's
[00:53:59] happening in in in Palestine in general
[00:54:02] very closely because of their own
[00:54:04] experience. But also Israel played a
[00:54:07] pivotal role in supporting the
[00:54:11] apartheite regime in South Africa. Once
[00:54:14] the boycott international boycott
[00:54:16] movement was on the way, Israel was
[00:54:18] continuing to provide financial support
[00:54:21] and continue to do trade with the
[00:54:23] apartheite regime. So there's obviously
[00:54:25] that um then the the the both liberation
[00:54:29] struggles uh used to train side by side
[00:54:32] in places like Tunisia.
[00:54:34] uh so you know it can understand what's
[00:54:37] going on in in in in Palestine and
[00:54:40] understand settler colonialism as being
[00:54:43] a victim of settler colonialism. Um but
[00:54:47] I I have to be a bit cynical as well. Um
[00:54:51] this ANC government um in South Africa
[00:54:54] isn't very popular at all. um you know
[00:54:57] especially amongst the black masses who
[00:55:00] you know they didn't want the settler
[00:55:03] colonial regime to end because they
[00:55:04] wanted one man one vote they wanted
[00:55:06] their land back and here we are 30 years
[00:55:09] after the end of apartheite and most
[00:55:13] black South Africans are still landless
[00:55:15] the economy is still controlled by um by
[00:55:20] you know the white minority uh white
[00:55:22] monopoly capital as they refer to it in
[00:55:24] South African circles Uh so this was
[00:55:27] this was also a a way for the South
[00:55:31] African government to reestablish its
[00:55:34] radical credentials because for 30 years
[00:55:38] um it's kind of been seen as a
[00:55:39] neoliberal
[00:55:41] uh government uh you know that has been
[00:55:44] collaborating with not not doing
[00:55:47] anything to redistribute the wealth and
[00:55:50] disrupt white monopoly capital but in
[00:55:52] many ways collaborating with it. uh
[00:55:54] Ramaposa who's the president is one of
[00:55:56] the richest men in South Africa and he's
[00:55:59] got many many business deals with the
[00:56:02] the white European elite uh that control
[00:56:04] the economy. Um but yeah that that's an
[00:56:07] attempt of of nuance you know there's
[00:56:10] there's the history but there is also as
[00:56:12] as always the case there's always
[00:56:15] politics so the rest of the countries in
[00:56:17] suffering Africa I think it's more
[00:56:19] genuine so Nibia has been very vocal
[00:56:22] that was also settled colonial regime uh
[00:56:25] settle colonial regime from Germany
[00:56:27] again they understand the struggle
[00:56:30] Zimbabwe uh was known as as uh Rhdesia
[00:56:35] had another settler uh uh settler
[00:56:38] colonial regime. Um so in southern
[00:56:40] Africa you'll see so much support in
[00:56:42] particular for Palestinian resistance
[00:56:45] and for the Palestinian struggle because
[00:56:47] that is where the settler colonial
[00:56:49] project was strongest in Africa. Um and
[00:56:52] so the the similarities are there. Um
[00:56:56] but yeah in in in in other parts of
[00:56:58] Africa in places like Kenya um it's the
[00:57:02] opposite sadly. So William Rut straight
[00:57:05] straight after October the 7th obviously
[00:57:08] made a very damning statement against
[00:57:10] Hamas. Um he's been very vocal in his
[00:57:13] support for Israel. And there's a
[00:57:15] history here. So under Donald Trump's
[00:57:18] first term um when Uhuru Kenyata was the
[00:57:22] president
[00:57:23] there was a trade agreement a document
[00:57:26] between um Israel sorry between there
[00:57:30] was a bit of a Freudian slip US and
[00:57:32] Kenya um and in that trade agreement it
[00:57:37] said that Kenya cannot participate in
[00:57:40] any shape or form with BDS. So you have
[00:57:43] to ask yourself why as why is there a
[00:57:47] trade agreement between an African
[00:57:48] nation and the and the largest economy
[00:57:51] on the planet predicated or having
[00:57:54] having a conditionality on BDS in there.
[00:57:58] This go this goes to show the role that
[00:58:01] Israel plays within the African
[00:58:03] continent. What is what Israel what what
[00:58:06] Israel represents within the African
[00:58:08] continent is are you a reliable partner
[00:58:12] for imperialism? Yeah. In my country of
[00:58:15] Sudan, we were a state sponsor of
[00:58:18] terror. We listed as a state sponsor of
[00:58:20] terror. In 2020, in the leadup to the US
[00:58:24] elections, there was negotiations to
[00:58:26] lift this designation um of the state
[00:58:29] sponsor of terror. Now in all of the
[00:58:31] negotiations
[00:58:33] the Israel wasn't mentioned and then
[00:58:35] right at the last minute Donald Trump
[00:58:38] said if you want this state sponsor a
[00:58:40] terror designation you have to normalize
[00:58:43] relations with Israel. Now at the time
[00:58:46] Sudan had a transitional civilian
[00:58:48] government that was that was sharing
[00:58:50] power with the military juna. The the
[00:58:53] transitional civilian government said
[00:58:55] this isn't a decision for us to make.
[00:58:57] This is a decision for an elected
[00:58:59] government in the future. Uh but the US
[00:59:02] said okay well then then we're going to
[00:59:04] continue this. We're going to continue
[00:59:05] sanctions. So eventually they they
[00:59:08] submitted um and signed that that peace
[00:59:11] agreement uh you know the the so-called
[00:59:13] Abraham Accords again to that Israel
[00:59:17] represents symbolism. If you can
[00:59:20] normalize relations with Israel, then
[00:59:22] you are a trusted partner in a region
[00:59:26] where you know the Russia and China seem
[00:59:28] to have influence. The US is looking for
[00:59:30] client states um and and and and
[00:59:34] recognizing and normalizing and signing
[00:59:36] trade agreements that you won't
[00:59:38] participate in BDS shows that you're
[00:59:41] more likely to be a trusted state and
[00:59:43] less likely to be a Zimbabwe or a South
[00:59:46] Africa or a Namibia.
[00:59:49] Yeah, I guess we at Mint Press have uh
[00:59:51] we designated Kenya as the US's African
[00:59:54] outpost because of course Kenya was uh
[00:59:56] really the face the veneer of the
[00:59:59] repression of the Haiti revolts. The
[01:00:01] United States has three military bases
[01:00:03] across Kenya of course and uh from Kenya
[01:00:07] they use that to target Somalia in
[01:00:09] bombing operations which Ahmed talked
[01:00:12] about earlier. President R invited King
[01:00:14] Charles III to Kenya despite the country
[01:00:16] fighting a bitter war of uh independence
[01:00:19] against the UK and suffering terrible
[01:00:22] massacres and terrible human rights
[01:00:24] violations uh from the British. Uh R,
[01:00:29] the president has also really obediently
[01:00:30] followed IMF orders imposing unpopular
[01:00:33] taxes on the population to pay back his
[01:00:36] pay masters in Europe and uh and the
[01:00:39] United States. So, you know, it's uh
[01:00:41] it's a pretty bad situation over there
[01:00:44] politically for Kenya. But, uh yeah,
[01:00:46] it's a really mixed bag when it comes to
[01:00:47] that continent. We've got people in the
[01:00:49] Sahel region which uh suddenly has
[01:00:53] become the most interesting and radical
[01:00:55] and inspiring place perhaps on the
[01:00:57] planet. And yet there are other uh cases
[01:00:59] there which uh you know begger belief
[01:01:02] about how corrupt and how uh miserable
[01:01:04] the situation is politically.
[01:01:11] And is it possible that we do talk about
[01:01:15] Morocco kind of as our last uh
[01:01:19] point of topic here? Because when
[01:01:21] talking about uh Israeli influence on
[01:01:24] African nations, um I think one of the
[01:01:27] most destructive relationships we've
[01:01:30] seen has been the one between Africa or
[01:01:32] excuse me uh Israel and Morocco because
[01:01:35] it's kind of just right there by the
[01:01:37] Sahil uh where this resistance is taking
[01:01:40] place against US, French and Israeli uh
[01:01:44] colonialism and imperialism. But then
[01:01:46] you have Israel building this military
[01:01:50] alliance with uh Morocco
[01:01:53] um specifically to deter and push back
[01:01:56] against that resistance in the Sahel. Uh
[01:01:58] but also to build its largest um uh
[01:02:04] weapons uh weapons company Elbert
[01:02:08] Systems because right now across the UK
[01:02:10] Elbbit Systems has been the target of of
[01:02:12] course Palestine Action. Palestine Aken
[01:02:14] has now been procedured as a terrorist
[01:02:16] organization, but I think we'll still
[01:02:17] see more resistance. But on the ground
[01:02:20] in Morocco, I would say the majority of
[01:02:22] the population does not support this
[01:02:24] relationship, this this this uh
[01:02:27] connection between Israel and um
[01:02:30] Morocco. I mean, just yesterday, we saw
[01:02:32] one of the largest protests and marches
[01:02:34] in Morocco in its capital. Hundreds of
[01:02:37] thousands of people took to the streets
[01:02:39] to detest uh Morocco's alliance with
[01:02:42] Israel.
[01:02:43] and asking Morocco, demanding Morocco um
[01:02:47] stop uh its alliance with the state of
[01:02:50] Israel and to assist in the siege, the
[01:02:53] illegal siege that Israel has imposed on
[01:02:54] Gaza. So, I'm curious to know more about
[01:02:57] the relationship between Morocco and
[01:02:58] Israel and what damage this is causing
[01:03:01] in the African continent and you know,
[01:03:04] if you could just tell us more about
[01:03:05] that. Um um
[01:03:07] >> Sure. Sure. So, there's a there's a key
[01:03:10] point that needs to be added. Um, it's
[01:03:13] also about the Morocco Israel connection
[01:03:16] is also about Western Sahara.
[01:03:18] So, uh, Morocco is illegally occupying
[01:03:21] Western Sahara. Um, and Western Sahara
[01:03:25] off the off the coast of Western Sahara
[01:03:27] is some of the richest fishing waters in
[01:03:29] the world. Uh, which Morocco gives
[01:03:32] access to the EU to. Um but most of the
[01:03:36] world doesn't recognize um Morocco's
[01:03:39] illegal annexation or occupation of
[01:03:42] Western Sahara. So part of the the
[01:03:45] Abraham Accords was if Morocco
[01:03:49] normalizes relations with Israel, the US
[01:03:53] will then move towards recognition of
[01:03:55] Western Sahara as part of Morocco. And
[01:03:58] obviously Israel's uh Israel would
[01:04:00] recognize Western Sahara as part of
[01:04:02] Morocco. Um, so this is a key part of of
[01:04:05] of the story. Um, um, you know, and it
[01:04:09] just goes to show how these struggles
[01:04:11] are interrelated. Um, and this is
[01:04:14] obviously a key uh part of friction
[01:04:16] between Algeria and Morocco because
[01:04:18] Algeria not only supports Palestinian uh
[01:04:22] right to self-determination, it also
[01:04:25] supports uh the people of Western
[01:04:27] Sahara's right to self-determination as
[01:04:28] well. Um, and so that's what they're
[01:04:30] constantly clashing. um about uh but
[01:04:35] yeah, Morocco it it is you know a a
[01:04:39] combination of a an EU client state
[01:04:42] within the African continent and a US
[01:04:45] client state within the African
[01:04:46] continent. And you're right to say that
[01:04:48] the the population
[01:04:50] um doesn't at all uh approve of this.
[01:04:54] You know, some of the best view some of
[01:04:56] the best footage we've seen of
[01:04:58] solidarity have come from the football
[01:05:00] stadiums in Morocco. uh some of their
[01:05:02] chants, you know, it can bring tears to
[01:05:05] your eyes. Uh some of the things that
[01:05:07] they say, you know, in the stadiums and
[01:05:08] it's the whole stadium. It's not like a
[01:05:10] segment with one Palestine flag. It's
[01:05:12] the whole stadium uh in unison uh you
[01:05:16] know, decrying their government and and
[01:05:18] and and saying, you know, how they're
[01:05:20] all Palestinian. So it's a sad state of
[01:05:22] sad state of affairs and it's and it's
[01:05:25] sad that you know uh geopolitics
[01:05:28] is being played uh at the expense of the
[01:05:32] people of Palestine and the peace people
[01:05:34] of Western Sahara. Alan, um, of course
[01:05:37] we talked a lot about, um, Israel and US
[01:05:41] imperialism inside of Africa, but we
[01:05:44] can't forget about the French and the
[01:05:46] British and of course the role that the
[01:05:48] IMF and World Bank plays in keeping
[01:05:52] these countries chained to modern-day
[01:05:55] colonialism. I know this is kind of more
[01:05:57] of a general question, but could you
[01:05:59] maybe elaborate more on some current
[01:06:01] examples, modern day examples of how um
[01:06:04] this still is a problem in the African
[01:06:07] continent?
[01:06:11] >> Yeah, sure. It's an age-old problem.
[01:06:12] It's an age-old phenomenon that's been
[01:06:14] going on for decades, ever since the end
[01:06:16] of World War II and the uh the uh postc
[01:06:19] colonial era where in the 1950s,60s and
[01:06:22] 70s African states gained formal
[01:06:25] independence, but they didn't really
[01:06:27] ever gain economic independence. most of
[01:06:30] them. Anyway, as Ahmed talked about
[01:06:32] earlier, a lot of countries in Western
[01:06:34] Africa still use the the uh CAF CFA
[01:06:37] Frank, which is a currency which is
[01:06:40] pretty much more or less completely
[01:06:42] controlled uh by Paris, which gives
[01:06:44] France an enormous exorbitant privilege
[01:06:48] all over Western Africa to dictate these
[01:06:51] countries economies and set those
[01:06:53] societies in uh a direction that is made
[01:06:57] to be serving France and serving the EU.
[01:07:00] The age-old story is that uh western
[01:07:03] countries see revolutionary leaders like
[01:07:06] Patrice Leumba, like Thomas Sankara and
[01:07:09] they try to take these uh rulers out
[01:07:12] because of what they're saying. They're
[01:07:14] saying that the resources of Africa
[01:07:16] should be used to help the African
[01:07:17] people. And they do that. They fment
[01:07:20] coups. They uh bring in seriously
[01:07:23] unpopular military dictators. And then
[01:07:26] they ply these dictators with huge loans
[01:07:28] from the IMF and the World Bank. And
[01:07:30] these corrupt dictators use that money
[01:07:33] to go around and buy Western weapons in
[01:07:36] order to entrench themselves in power.
[01:07:38] And these countries get more and more in
[01:07:40] debt. And finally, maybe a couple of
[01:07:43] decades later, the people manage to rise
[01:07:45] up finally and uh rid themselves of
[01:07:48] these dictators. but they're not ridding
[01:07:50] themselves of the uh western debt that
[01:07:53] these dictators have accured. And so
[01:07:56] even though they are now formerly
[01:07:58] independent and have perhaps uh more
[01:08:00] nationalistic uh rulers, they're still
[01:08:03] trapped into a cycle of poverty and debt
[01:08:06] because of this uh servicing that they
[01:08:08] have to do whereby Western corporations
[01:08:11] fleece and um take huge amounts,
[01:08:14] trillions uh every decade out of Africa
[01:08:18] and uh drop it into the pockets of uh
[01:08:21] big financeers in Paris, in London, in
[01:08:24] Brussels and in Washington DC and this
[01:08:26] is the big uh picture of what's going on
[01:08:29] and the way to break that of course is
[01:08:32] not only to study it but also we need
[01:08:34] African unity whereby countries come
[01:08:37] together and form a united front against
[01:08:40] uh against imperialism whether it's
[01:08:42] political or economic and they say we
[01:08:45] are not going to be uh paying these
[01:08:47] anymore uh they're going to come
[01:08:50] together and uh yeah uh provide a much
[01:08:53] better future because as Ahmed has been
[01:08:55] saying uh many times now and Ibrahim
[01:08:57] Trayori we heard earlier say Africa is
[01:09:00] not a poor continent. It's actually a
[01:09:01] very rich continent. It has been
[01:09:03] deliberately underdeveloped for
[01:09:05] centuries
[01:09:07] uh in order to uh serve as a a material
[01:09:11] base for western countries like the
[01:09:14] United States and those states in
[01:09:16] Western Europe. And that fundamentally
[01:09:19] has got to change. That is the
[01:09:21] relationship that absolutely has to be
[01:09:23] broken if Africa is going to remove its
[01:09:26] chains and rise properly uh to the place
[01:09:28] it should be. Just um to wrap it up
[01:09:31] here, I think a lot of uh people who
[01:09:33] might still feel a little bit confused
[01:09:35] about these issues would would perhaps
[01:09:37] argue, okay, well, we push out US
[01:09:39] imperialism, but aren't these African
[01:09:41] nations um putting themselves in a trap
[01:09:44] because now they're going to Russia and
[01:09:46] China just two other um you know, big
[01:09:50] world leaders? What is what is your
[01:09:52] response to that?
[01:09:54] >> I'm glad you asked me that question. Um
[01:09:58] before the European colonial project in
[01:10:01] Africa, Africa was doing trade with
[01:10:04] other countries in the world. We were
[01:10:06] trading with India, we were trading with
[01:10:08] China. Now I hate to use this analogy,
[01:10:13] but it's almost like when someone is in
[01:10:16] a an abusive relationship
[01:10:19] and you got that kind of friend that
[01:10:21] says to hell with men or to hell with
[01:10:24] women. No, you were just in an abusive
[01:10:26] relationship with that man or that
[01:10:29] woman. Um, and because we were in an
[01:10:32] abusive relationship with European
[01:10:35] colonialist and with Western
[01:10:36] imperialism, it doesn't mean we should
[01:10:39] be insular and cut ourselves off from
[01:10:41] the rest of the world. That is a fast
[01:10:44] track to nowhere. Yeah. So, we we need
[01:10:47] to do trade. we just need to do trade
[01:10:50] from a position of strength and and do
[01:10:53] trade uh from a position of uh
[01:10:56] reciprocity. Um so it shouldn't be um
[01:11:00] you know an exploitative relationship
[01:11:03] and the only way we can stop it from
[01:11:04] being an exploitative relationship is if
[01:11:07] as Alan mentioned is if we unite and we
[01:11:10] say that you know you can't pick us off
[01:11:13] oneonone pick us off against each other.
[01:11:16] Um, you can't say to Chad, "If you don't
[01:11:19] do a trade agreement with us, then we're
[01:11:21] going to go to Central African Republic
[01:11:23] and essential African Republic. If we
[01:11:25] don't do a trade agreement with us,
[01:11:26] we're going to go to Uganda." If we come
[01:11:29] with a unified position, that way we'll
[01:11:31] get the best deal possible. We see
[01:11:33] that's what happens with the EU. The EU
[01:11:36] doesn't negotiate as Germany, as France,
[01:11:38] as Belgium. They they they negotiate as
[01:11:41] the European Union block. Um and so
[01:11:44] that's what we argue as revolutionary
[01:11:46] pan-Africanist
[01:11:48] that you know we need to do trade with
[01:11:50] the rest of the world but we need to do
[01:11:52] it from a position of strength and the
[01:11:54] only way we can do that is if we unite
[01:11:56] our economic power if we unite our
[01:11:59] military power and we unite our
[01:12:01] political power. Um but yeah people are
[01:12:04] right to have reservations. Um but but
[01:12:07] but they they're not right into saying
[01:12:10] that, you know, Africa doesn't need
[01:12:11] anyone else and we just need to trade
[01:12:13] with each other. That doesn't lead
[01:12:15] anywhere.
[01:12:18] >> Well, and I as we see
[01:12:21] >> I think you have to just mute yourself
[01:12:22] one more time. As we as we as we see
[01:12:25] that, you know, as China's pulling
[01:12:27] people out of poverty, they're not
[01:12:29] sending in their troops to overthrow a
[01:12:30] government, whereas the United States
[01:12:33] does do that kind of stuff. um always an
[01:12:36] imperialist state
[01:12:38] >> will forever be an imperialist state.
[01:12:40] But um anyways, gentlemen, thank you so
[01:12:42] much for joining me today. I wish we had
[01:12:44] more time. I I really wanted to expand
[01:12:46] more on the Sahel versus the Sahara
[01:12:49] also, but we didn't get a chance to do
[01:12:50] that. So maybe we can do that for
[01:12:51] another conversation. Uh both of you um
[01:12:55] hold such a wealth of knowledge and I
[01:12:57] really appreciate you being here. I've
[01:12:58] learned so much from both of you. Thank
[01:13:01] you so much.
[01:13:03] [Music]
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