📄 Extracted Text (24,181 words)
[00:00:04] Uncle Buck, I'm glad you're here.
[00:00:08] >> So, you're on Tw I didn't even know you
[00:00:09] were on Twitter and then the ghouls
[00:00:11] decided to, you know, destroy my son
[00:00:14] who's got the same name as you and
[00:00:17] because in our family there only like
[00:00:18] four names and everyone's required to
[00:00:20] use one. And uh and I think they mistook
[00:00:24] your Twitter feed for his. I don't even
[00:00:26] know if he has a Twitter feed. And um
[00:00:28] and all of a sudden you became really
[00:00:29] famous and a couple of your nieces
[00:00:31] called me, Uncle Buck's on Twitter. I
[00:00:32] had no idea. I was like, I didn't know
[00:00:33] that. How long have you been on Twitter?
[00:00:37] Not very long. Since 2010, but mostly as
[00:00:39] a reader.
[00:00:40] >> Yeah.
[00:00:41] >> And now that there's nowhere else you
[00:00:43] can get news except for UNS Review. Are
[00:00:45] we allowed to talk about Unsreview?
[00:00:50] Uh the only or revolver news, the only
[00:00:52] other place you can get information
[00:00:54] these days is on X. So if you're not on
[00:00:56] it, you're not getting information. I
[00:00:58] had never actually rendered many
[00:01:00] opinions on X.
[00:01:02] >> Yeah.
[00:01:02] >> But I started doing that recently.
[00:01:04] >> Oh, did that change?
[00:01:05] >> Yeah, it did.
[00:01:07] >> It did. And it's been so fun. Actually,
[00:01:10] you meet some interesting people on X
[00:01:12] and there's a lot of creativity on X.
[00:01:14] >> I agree with that.
[00:01:15] >> There is a lot. Like I wouldn't know how
[00:01:17] to make a meme if my life depended on
[00:01:19] it, but I sure appreciate them. Other
[00:01:21] than that, there are some seriously
[00:01:23] wellressearched, smart people who've got
[00:01:26] a lot of interesting stuff to say. So,
[00:01:29] and it's addictive. I try not to spend a
[00:01:31] huge amount of time on it. I actually
[00:01:33] have work to do. So, but it will suck me
[00:01:35] in. But, you beat alcohol, you beat
[00:01:37] cigarettes,
[00:01:39] but Twitter's hard as much. Thankfully,
[00:01:42] I've got a lot of nicotine with me.
[00:01:44] >> Good. That's
[00:01:45] >> Are you armed, by the way? I always I
[00:01:47] always assume you normally have a gun
[00:01:48] right on the table, but I don't see it.
[00:01:50] Sadly, I had to fly through. I had to be
[00:01:52] groped by TSA this morning at dawn. It
[00:01:55] was awesome. They uh Yeah.
[00:01:58] >> What was your strategy for that?
[00:02:00] >> My strategy used to be, "Hey, say please
[00:02:03] and thank you." Um because you work for
[00:02:07] us, right?
[00:02:08] >> They love that message.
[00:02:09] >> Yeah, they do. I've I've seen you try to
[00:02:11] enforce manners, Anglo manners at the
[00:02:14] TSA station. Doesn't work.
[00:02:16] >> No. And actually recently since they've
[00:02:18] instituted the uh Real ID and they have
[00:02:21] you stand and take your picture. I know
[00:02:23] they have their your picture everywhere
[00:02:24] else and they have your biometrics. Um I
[00:02:27] took a principled stand a few times and
[00:02:30] said, "Oh no, I don't think I want a
[00:02:32] picture." Well, every time that's
[00:02:34] happened, they managed to discover that
[00:02:36] I have a duplicate ticket or no TSA
[00:02:39] badge
[00:02:40] and I have to go back to the front of
[00:02:42] the line. So I don't do that. I'm
[00:02:43] captain compliant. I go through. I'm
[00:02:47] super courteous when I walk through. Uh,
[00:02:50] >> so they broke. You're like Winston Smith
[00:02:51] at the end of 1984. They just broken
[00:02:53] you. You're like 2 plus two. I think
[00:02:54] that's five. Is it five?
[00:02:56] >> You just have to surrender at some
[00:02:58] point. Exactly. If you want to fly
[00:03:00] anywhere these days, so no, I'm not
[00:03:02] armed, sadly. But uh I'm in the great
[00:03:04] state of Florida.
[00:03:05] >> I don't think I've ever seen you
[00:03:06] unarmed. But you're This is a safe
[00:03:08] place. Um, normally you have this little
[00:03:10] thing on the table. And Uncle Buck,
[00:03:12] what's that?
[00:03:14] backup planner.
[00:03:14] >> But so you've actually been broken by
[00:03:16] TSA.
[00:03:17] >> I don't really think there's any other
[00:03:19] solution to it. I'm still angry about
[00:03:21] it,
[00:03:22] >> right?
[00:03:22] >> Oh, for sure. Legitimately, I find it to
[00:03:24] be one of the most humiliating
[00:03:25] experiences of American life.
[00:03:27] >> And I do still say to everyone around me
[00:03:31] after I've gone through the groping, I
[00:03:32] say, "Do you feel safer?"
[00:03:35] >> You do say that
[00:03:36] >> every day.
[00:03:36] >> You offer a real comment in the line.
[00:03:38] It's amazing how few people actually
[00:03:40] will take the bait.
[00:03:42] >> They can smell the non-compliance on you
[00:03:44] and they get away quick.
[00:03:45] >> Big time.
[00:03:46] >> Like he should be deplatformed.
[00:03:49] >> Boy, there's a lot of that on X. I had
[00:03:51] heard that you could say whatever you
[00:03:52] want. It turns out that's not true.
[00:03:54] >> Oh, it's not true.
[00:03:55] >> No. And people have no sense of humor.
[00:03:58] >> Oh, they don't they don't like jokes
[00:03:59] anymore. No.
[00:04:00] >> Yeah.
[00:04:01] >> Can I just give you my strategy for TSA
[00:04:03] when I get groped,
[00:04:04] >> please? Little the left.
[00:04:06] >> Yeah. No, totally.
[00:04:08] >> Like, um, I'm going to touch you, uh,
[00:04:10] around the belt area, sir. And I'm like,
[00:04:12] bring it on, baby. You know, and then
[00:04:15] just act like you love it. And it's so
[00:04:17] creepy that it'll abbreviate the
[00:04:19] experience. Do you go through the X-ray
[00:04:21] machine so they can keep the file?
[00:04:24] >> I try not to. I'm so paranoid about all
[00:04:27] of that stuff. I'm getting crazy and I'm
[00:04:28] like, "Oh, I'm going to get some weird,
[00:04:30] you know, lymphoma from the from the
[00:04:32] magnetometer or something." I just don't
[00:04:34] I It can't be healthy, right? No, it
[00:04:36] can't. Although, I figure once you've
[00:04:37] surrendered and you can't do anything in
[00:04:39] American life without surrendering to
[00:04:40] some extent,
[00:04:41] >> even emailing or texting, you know that
[00:04:43] other people have it. So, at some point,
[00:04:45] you should just adopt an attitude.
[00:04:47] >> No, I I think you're you're absolutely
[00:04:49] right. I mean, we've we've both been
[00:04:50] tamed by the women in our lives and just
[00:04:52] like, stop making a fuss. But I always
[00:04:54] think these are the people who ran the
[00:04:55] burn pits at Camp Leune.
[00:04:57] >> Yes.
[00:04:57] >> Where our father was stationed and uh in
[00:04:59] the Marine Corps. And
[00:05:00] >> never joined the class action.
[00:05:02] >> Never he never joined the class action.
[00:05:04] That's right. No, not a ligious man.
[00:05:06] >> You're not a legitious man. I was saying
[00:05:07] to someone the other day, I'm 56. I've
[00:05:10] never sued anybody. Someone said,
[00:05:12] "People are slandering. You got to sue."
[00:05:13] And I was like, I'm committed to a
[00:05:15] higher principle that in my culture,
[00:05:17] we're not into lawsuits at all. And I'm
[00:05:19] never going to I want to make it to
[00:05:21] death. And I hope it's, you know, a
[00:05:22] while from now without ever suing
[00:05:24] anybody. That'll be a personal victory
[00:05:26] for me and my family. And really only
[00:05:28] our family will appreciate it because
[00:05:30] the culture we grew up in is just gone.
[00:05:31] Doesn't like it never existed. But
[00:05:33] >> yeah, I've noticed.
[00:05:34] >> Yes.
[00:05:35] >> Oh, you've noticed.
[00:05:36] >> Yeah, I have noticed a little bit.
[00:05:38] >> Has it has it been a net win or loss for
[00:05:40] the country, would you say?
[00:05:42] >> After we won World War II and we got to
[00:05:43] luxuriate in our freedoms and and all
[00:05:46] the economic prosperity that has led us
[00:05:48] to be freer and able to speak our mind.
[00:05:50] No. No. It's actually tragic. And if you
[00:05:53] have young children, as you do, I guess
[00:05:55] they're no longer young, but you really
[00:05:57] see it with the way our children have
[00:05:59] grown up and the restrictions they've
[00:06:01] had on thought and speech, especially. I
[00:06:05] mean, we grew up at a time, as you know,
[00:06:07] where I don't think anybody's ever heard
[00:06:08] this question before in a in a school
[00:06:10] setting.
[00:06:12] One,
[00:06:14] ask any question you want. In fact,
[00:06:17] you're encouraged to ask a question. I
[00:06:18] was always taught, ask any question. and
[00:06:21] you'll never get in trouble. And then
[00:06:23] that silly little diddy, you know,
[00:06:25] sticks and stones will break my bones,
[00:06:26] but words will never hurt me. That was
[00:06:29] real. And none of our children were
[00:06:31] taught that. No, no American child goes
[00:06:34] through life thinking that they can
[00:06:36] deviate from the script, that they can
[00:06:39] offer some opinion that's counter to the
[00:06:41] authorities that are in front of them.
[00:06:43] And that's tragic. And it obviously has
[00:06:45] a huge effect. It stifles imagination
[00:06:48] and creativity.
[00:06:50] um
[00:06:50] >> which are why they've died. I think
[00:06:52] actually that slogan which if you're
[00:06:53] under 50 you may not be familiar with
[00:06:54] but it was a staple of well England by
[00:06:58] the way and then the United States it's
[00:07:00] child sticks and stones may break my
[00:07:02] bones but words will never hurt me. It's
[00:07:04] actually been inverted where we've
[00:07:05] endorsed sticks and stones. Violence is
[00:07:08] no big deal. We're totally for violence.
[00:07:09] Just blow up the drug boats. Whatever.
[00:07:10] Are they drug runners? Who cares? Kill
[00:07:12] them. And by the way Charlie Kirk got
[00:07:15] shot. Well yeah because he used bad
[00:07:16] words like he deserved it. People
[00:07:18] believe that. So sticks and stones are
[00:07:20] fine, but words are the threat. Like
[00:07:22] what is that?
[00:07:23] >> It's terrifying actually.
[00:07:25] >> It's not a western orientation.
[00:07:27] >> No, no, it's not. Um, but it is
[00:07:30] prevalent here now in the west. It's
[00:07:32] everywhere.
[00:07:34] >> So you've I looks like you've decided
[00:07:36] not to play along.
[00:07:39] >> I am not playing along and I'm fortunate
[00:07:40] because I've grown up in an in an
[00:07:42] atmosphere where actually I was
[00:07:44] encouraged to say what I believe. I
[00:07:46] don't have a lot of governors in my
[00:07:47] life, especially now that my child is
[00:07:49] old enough not to be embarrassed by me
[00:07:51] daily. And I don't have
[00:07:53] >> I don't have to fight with his various
[00:07:55] academic institutions that charge me a
[00:07:57] lot of money and tried to wipe out the
[00:08:00] boy and wipe out the creativity and from
[00:08:02] my son. Uh and that was a you know 12
[00:08:06] 14-year battle that I had to fight. And
[00:08:10] also I so I don't really care. There are
[00:08:12] very few people whose opinion matters to
[00:08:15] me. In the end of the day, I have a
[00:08:17] constituency basically of one and that's
[00:08:20] the woman I love and live with and my
[00:08:23] son and then the flatly expanding circle
[00:08:27] of you and other family members.
[00:08:30] >> Beyond that, and every one of those
[00:08:32] people is perfectly apprised of my deep
[00:08:37] flaws and my history. So,
[00:08:39] >> and and and your amazing virtues. And as
[00:08:42] one of my children said to me, well in
[00:08:44] fact, all of my many children said to me
[00:08:46] and my nephews when you made your public
[00:08:49] immersions on Twitter, the legend of
[00:08:52] Uncle Buck is
[00:08:56] is now out there for the public to
[00:08:58] appreciate. And by the way, they loved
[00:09:00] it. That's so nice. I guess the key is
[00:09:03] just not thinking about it. I don't
[00:09:04] think about it. That's actually I was
[00:09:06] thinking about I thought you might ask
[00:09:07] me about this only because it's a new
[00:09:08] thing in my life. Um I likened it to
[00:09:12] shooting rabbits on a sporting clay
[00:09:14] course. The most accurate you'll ever be
[00:09:15] is if you're just instinctive. You just
[00:09:19] pull your gun up and you shoot.
[00:09:20] >> That's totally right.
[00:09:21] >> And so I don't have a lot of time to
[00:09:22] think about what I write. I've managed
[00:09:24] not to write anything too embarrassing.
[00:09:26] I don't write things that are
[00:09:27] intentionally provocative.
[00:09:29] >> But I also have no trouble expressing
[00:09:31] myself. And there's so much absurdity
[00:09:34] out there that needs to be addressed. I
[00:09:38] think so.
[00:09:40] >> And I think the the most important act
[00:09:42] of defiance is not violence. I have come
[00:09:45] to believe in my age that violence
[00:09:48] actually doesn't seem to sol the last
[00:09:52] time violence solved a problem. It's
[00:09:53] also prohibited to us as Christians. So
[00:09:55] like there's that. But you can't kill
[00:09:58] innocents. Sorry. But I do think they're
[00:10:02] right to worry about words.
[00:10:04] >> Yes,
[00:10:04] >> actually words do change the world. The
[00:10:06] New Testament changed the world. Period.
[00:10:08] The Old Testament changed the world. I
[00:10:09] mean, truth changes everything. And you
[00:10:12] may not live to see it come to fruition,
[00:10:14] but it still is the most profound thing
[00:10:16] you can do to fight tyranny is to tell
[00:10:18] the truth about tyranny.
[00:10:18] >> Yes.
[00:10:20] >> Do you feel that?
[00:10:21] >> Very much so. And I think and there's a
[00:10:23] huge amount of people in this country
[00:10:24] and across the world who do. And it
[00:10:26] seems like the aside from podcasts like
[00:10:28] yours, and there are very few, there are
[00:10:30] few opportunities for people to express
[00:10:32] themselves,
[00:10:34] honestly, unfiltered. Well, 2026 is
[00:10:37] likely to be the year that some
[00:10:39] companies will find patriotism. They'll
[00:10:41] discover it. During the Biden years,
[00:10:42] corporate America thought hating our
[00:10:44] country was the thing to do, so they did
[00:10:45] it. Now that we're in a new era, they
[00:10:47] are coming back to reality. It's not
[00:10:49] real, though. It's a trick. They don't
[00:10:51] mean it at all. Black Rifle means it and
[00:10:54] they've been doing it since day one.
[00:10:56] They're not just discovering patriotism.
[00:10:58] They were founded on the premise. As
[00:11:00] this country celebrates 250 years of
[00:11:02] existence, Black Rifle is brewing bold
[00:11:05] American roasted beans built for people
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[00:11:53] Roasted. It's America's coffee. You you
[00:11:56] talked about growing up. Obviously, we
[00:11:58] grew up together. We're the only
[00:12:00] children in our family. We had the
[00:12:01] world's smallest family. It's like three
[00:12:03] of us for a while. And uh and then we've
[00:12:05] lived next to each other our whole lives
[00:12:07] until pretty recently. And you talked
[00:12:10] about telling the truth at your kids
[00:12:11] school. I should just say this because
[00:12:12] it's one of the things I admire so much
[00:12:13] about you. We sent our children to the
[00:12:15] same school. Obviously, lived
[00:12:16] >> I forgive you.
[00:12:18] Well, my wife convinced you to send
[00:12:21] yours to the school that our kids went
[00:12:22] to. And of course, it turned out to be a
[00:12:24] sub awesome school, a very liberal,
[00:12:26] crazy school. But, you know, it's our
[00:12:28] neighborhood school. Whatever. We did
[00:12:29] it. Let's not regret it. But, um, you
[00:12:32] were the only person in this rich person
[00:12:34] school that we sent our kids to to
[00:12:37] confront, you know, with politeness but
[00:12:39] firmness the administration of the
[00:12:41] school about what they were telling your
[00:12:43] child, which was like totally bonkers.
[00:12:45] like men can become women and hate
[00:12:47] yourself if you're white and all this
[00:12:49] stuff and boys are bad, testosterone's
[00:12:51] bad, masculinity is bad. And everyone
[00:12:54] else was like, "Okay, well, it's a
[00:12:56] prestigious school. We'll just go along
[00:12:58] with it." And you were like, "I know."
[00:13:00] And I remember all the moms
[00:13:03] kind of hated you, but were also sort of
[00:13:05] attracted to you, just to be honest
[00:13:06] about it. And they were like, "Oh, I
[00:13:08] can't believe you brother's always
[00:13:10] making a fuss." And you were like,
[00:13:11] "Yeah, I don't care."
[00:13:13] >> Why did you do that? You're the only
[00:13:14] person.
[00:13:16] >> My son is the greatest blessing in my
[00:13:18] life and it's the sole purpose. It was
[00:13:22] my sole purpose for a long time. It
[00:13:24] seemed it's the only thing that that
[00:13:26] could be important. It's the only
[00:13:28] enduring thing. When people ask me when
[00:13:30] I was a kid, probably because we had
[00:13:32] such a happy, thoroughly [ __ ] up
[00:13:34] childhood, but really happy thanks to
[00:13:36] our father who was so
[00:13:39] extraordinary in every way and made it
[00:13:42] very clear that we were the number one
[00:13:44] priority in his life. I mean,
[00:13:46] >> and was like the busiest guy I've ever
[00:13:49] known, involved in so many things, and
[00:13:51] yet we were without a doubt his only
[00:13:54] focus and or his primary focus. and
[00:13:57] >> he would do anything
[00:13:58] >> would do absolutely anything. So there
[00:14:01] are
[00:14:02] >> literally
[00:14:03] >> there are no boundaries and and so that
[00:14:06] seems normal to me. That was my
[00:14:07] reflexive attitude about my son. Well, I
[00:14:10] think the first thing I encountered when
[00:14:12] I took him to that school that pretended
[00:14:13] to be a nice Episcopalian school with
[00:14:15] its own chapel, I noticed um they were
[00:14:19] anything but Christian in their
[00:14:20] attitudes. And it was it was the middle
[00:14:25] of the Obama administration when
[00:14:26] everybody got super empowered about, you
[00:14:29] know, indoctrinating children on a level
[00:14:31] that I don't think I'd ever seen. I
[00:14:33] don't think that America had ever seen
[00:14:34] it.
[00:14:34] >> No.
[00:14:35] >> And you pay all this money because
[00:14:37] there's really no chance that you would
[00:14:38] send your children to a public school in
[00:14:40] Washington. I thought
[00:14:43] didn't. Um there's actually an argument
[00:14:46] probably for sending your children to
[00:14:48] something other than what we sent ours
[00:14:50] to. Anyway, I remember showing up. It
[00:14:52] was right after the election and I'm not
[00:14:53] a big bumper sticker guy, but I had a
[00:14:56] bumper sticker. Probably the only other
[00:14:57] only bumper sticker I've ever owned. And
[00:14:59] it was a series of four memes. And it
[00:15:02] was pro,
[00:15:04] prolife, proun,
[00:15:07] and then it had the Obama Horizon with a
[00:15:10] cross with a slash through it. And that
[00:15:12] was in the back of my Chevy Tahoe. And I
[00:15:14] pulled up and dropped my son off at
[00:15:15] school.
[00:15:17] And the visceral reaction from the
[00:15:19] entire teacher
[00:15:22] platoon that was outside
[00:15:24] was obvious. And so actually I made a
[00:15:27] commitment right then and there. Again I
[00:15:28] was kind of embarrassed to have a bumper
[00:15:30] sticker on my car. Like who does that?
[00:15:32] But uh I kept it on there religiously
[00:15:35] for the next like eight years until the
[00:15:37] car died. Uh yeah, until one of our
[00:15:40] friends actually took that car that I
[00:15:42] had tried to flip and destroy many times
[00:15:44] and unsuccessfully was unsuccessful and
[00:15:47] he flipped it and broke his neck.
[00:15:49] >> Yes, he did. He's okay. I
[00:15:51] >> He's He is okay. But he was Yeah. was
[00:15:54] sober, too. Yes, he is.
[00:15:56] >> In his defense,
[00:15:58] >> uh he he was dead sober. He was going
[00:16:00] hunting and it was in the morning. It
[00:16:02] was in Maine and he hit black ice.
[00:16:03] >> Yes.
[00:16:04] >> Yes. Even having grown up in rural
[00:16:06] Maine, he somehow was an expert at
[00:16:08] dealing with black
[00:16:09] >> on top of a pine tree off with the
[00:16:11] vehicle.
[00:16:11] >> I know. I
[00:16:12] >> It's I drive by it all the time.
[00:16:13] >> I say a quick prayer every time I go by
[00:16:15] it.
[00:16:15] >> Me, too.
[00:16:16] >> Um
[00:16:17] >> he's unbeatable in every way. So, he's
[00:16:19] going to help us both. For sure. What a
[00:16:22] wonderful man.
[00:16:22] >> So, that set the tone and then the other
[00:16:25] and then the fact that they have your
[00:16:27] child captive. You pay all this money.
[00:16:29] they should have a classical education
[00:16:31] that in this case was buil as something
[00:16:33] that was rooted in the Christian church
[00:16:37] and yet immediately they adopted and
[00:16:40] started all these clubs that were
[00:16:41] race-based. They my son went there in
[00:16:44] fifth grade so he was 10 and they
[00:16:47] immediately started not only
[00:16:49] indoctrinating all the kids there but
[00:16:52] making them feel horrible about
[00:16:54] themselves segregating kids by race.
[00:16:56] This is a school where you know all the
[00:16:58] the entire it's in the middle of the
[00:17:01] swamp. So it's like the the richest zip
[00:17:03] code in all of DC and so the diversity
[00:17:07] >> one of the richest in the United States.
[00:17:08] >> Yes. And the diversity that they had
[00:17:10] they talked endlessly about diversity
[00:17:12] and the diversity they had there was
[00:17:14] color only. Everybody was in the same
[00:17:16] industry. Everybody was working.
[00:17:18] Everybody was driving a [ __ ] Range
[00:17:20] Rover. I wasn't but you know they were.
[00:17:24] Um, and yet anyway, so it was stifling
[00:17:27] and confusing for children and I just
[00:17:31] wasn't going to sit back and allow them
[00:17:33] to do that. And I tried to be
[00:17:35] reasonable. I was just persistent and
[00:17:37] they boy, they didn't like it. They
[00:17:39] actually despised me. In fact, I guess
[00:17:42] I've encountered that a few times in my
[00:17:44] life. But but boy, they they hardily
[00:17:47] dislike me. You do?
[00:17:49] >> Yes. And these are the kind of people
[00:17:50] who probably do have voodoo dolls back
[00:17:52] home. Oh, 100%. They're all Wiccans. No,
[00:17:55] they were.
[00:17:56] >> My back pains were not from being
[00:17:57] overweight or from not having a tough
[00:17:59] core. It was someone sitting some booger
[00:18:01] eater sitting at home, you know,
[00:18:03] stabbing me with a [ __ ] dagger. I'm
[00:18:06] excuse my language. Sorry. No, it's
[00:18:09] fine. No, you're right. It just It was
[00:18:11] so interesting cuz I saw it obviously,
[00:18:13] you know, I'm your brother. My wife is
[00:18:15] your biggest fan. So it's like of course
[00:18:18] we supported you but I just and but I
[00:18:20] was not as brave as you not even close
[00:18:23] and I felt exposed cuz I had a public
[00:18:25] job like I didn't want to get you know
[00:18:26] what I felt a little bit constrained but
[00:18:28] you're just you were braver than I
[00:18:29] that's just a fact. And but the reaction
[00:18:32] from the other parents all of whom liked
[00:18:34] you cuz everyone likes you but they were
[00:18:36] they didn't want you even the ones who
[00:18:38] agreed with you to keep saying stuff
[00:18:40] like this because I think they wanted to
[00:18:43] ignore it. they wanted to fit in more
[00:18:46] than they cared about their own
[00:18:48] children's moral and intellectual
[00:18:49] development. I mean that's just a fact
[00:18:51] >> that and also I think um cowardice
[00:18:55] breeds self-loathing and which turns
[00:18:58] into hostility like extreme hostility. I
[00:19:01] saw this during co in in the same place
[00:19:03] that cowardice.
[00:19:04] >> I think cowardice breeds
[00:19:07] self-loathing. I think people who are
[00:19:09] cowardly hate being cowardly. They know
[00:19:12] they're being cowardly and they hate
[00:19:13] themselves for it. Especially men
[00:19:16] >> or people who claim to be men. And then
[00:19:19] that manifests itself in extreme
[00:19:22] hostility. I mean I saw everybody's had
[00:19:25] their experiences during co but I
[00:19:28] encountered the most extreme hostility
[00:19:30] when it was if I'm I never wore a mask.
[00:19:34] I mean I was compelled to wear a mask on
[00:19:35] an airplane. Other than that I never
[00:19:36] wore a mask. I just wouldn't. I refused.
[00:19:38] And I would travel a lot. So I would go
[00:19:41] through like Chicago airport and be the
[00:19:44] only person that I ever encountered with
[00:19:46] no mask. And it wasn't the authorities
[00:19:48] who wanted to tackle me. It was the
[00:19:50] other people like going past me on the
[00:19:53] people mover on the escalator who look
[00:19:55] like they wanted to [ __ ] stab me in
[00:19:56] the face.
[00:19:57] >> Right.
[00:19:58] >> Right. And then and then when I would I
[00:20:02] I write for a living and I need to get
[00:20:04] out in in the world and nature and you
[00:20:06] know it's a tough business. It's a
[00:20:08] solitary business. So um I take my dogs
[00:20:12] twice a day and and run them in nature.
[00:20:15] >> Oh, you have dogs?
[00:20:16] >> Oh yes. I have a few dogs. I have a lot
[00:20:18] of dogs. I have five dogs, which is I
[00:20:20] think actually about the ideal number.
[00:20:22] >> Yeah. Is that Is that right?
[00:20:23] >> Is about the ideal number. Yes. Of
[00:20:25] course. I said that every time. Three,
[00:20:27] four, five is the ideal number.
[00:20:29] >> Yes. It's the best.
[00:20:31] But I would encounter people outside on
[00:20:33] a windy day in the sun walking and I
[00:20:37] would of course didn't have a mask on
[00:20:38] and they would all have their beautiful
[00:20:40] masks on and it would inspire the fact
[00:20:42] that I didn't have a mask would inspire
[00:20:44] in them this kind of hostility that I've
[00:20:47] never encountered anywhere else. And
[00:20:50] yeah, it was obvious. Um,
[00:20:53] >> I think something like that was going on
[00:20:54] at the school
[00:20:56] >> very much
[00:20:56] >> at the little Episcopal Day School
[00:20:58] because the other parents knew that this
[00:21:00] was bad and when their kids started to
[00:21:01] become trans or get into drugs or
[00:21:04] whatever, they sort of know like it's
[00:21:06] not all your fault. You know, you can't
[00:21:07] blame parents for everything, but it is
[00:21:09] partly your fault and they sort of you
[00:21:11] can kind of blame parents. I try not to
[00:21:12] judge people, but I do definitely judge
[00:21:14] them about their parenthood. That's
[00:21:15] about the one thing I judge people on.
[00:21:17] Although
[00:21:17] >> trying to be nice.
[00:21:18] >> I know. I mean, you don't actually have
[00:21:20] total control. There are people who have
[00:21:22] aberant children that they're I believe
[00:21:23] are not responsible for it. But I think
[00:21:25] the majority of the weird child behavior
[00:21:28] stems from shitty parents or parents who
[00:21:31] were occupied with other people's
[00:21:33] problems rather than their children's
[00:21:35] problems.
[00:21:35] >> I hate Yeah.
[00:21:37] >> What you're saying is true.
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[00:22:47] Remember you mentioned you heard it here
[00:22:50] first. So you I should just say for the
[00:22:52] record that um you were scoffed at for
[00:22:56] having the pro-life proun
[00:22:59] anti-Obama bumper sticker
[00:23:00] >> at a Christian school.
[00:23:01] >> At a Christian school, right? No pro. No
[00:23:03] proife at a Christian school. But um
[00:23:06] then you decided to take your defiance
[00:23:08] another click up the ladder by driving
[00:23:12] your son to school on a big twin Harley
[00:23:14] in carpool line which I personally saw
[00:23:18] and he was like a little kid and there'd
[00:23:20] be all these Range Rovers and Volvas
[00:23:24] you look over be like there's Uncle Buck
[00:23:27] with the ape hangers.
[00:23:28] >> I had him strapped to my chest with a
[00:23:30] bungee cord. It was safe.
[00:23:33] No, it was it was I mean safe is a
[00:23:35] relative term and our family as we know
[00:23:38] there's no such thing as safety. There's
[00:23:40] only destiny and I we both believe that.
[00:23:42] But safe. Okay. But it wasn't even a
[00:23:45] safe safety violation. It was like a
[00:23:48] cultural violation.
[00:23:49] >> Yes.
[00:23:50] >> And all the moms would be you could you
[00:23:52] could tell they were a little bit turned
[00:23:53] on but also very kind of like what is
[00:23:56] this? Why did I saw that with my own
[00:24:00] eyes many times. What was the thinking
[00:24:02] there?
[00:24:03] >> Pure celebration of joy and freedom.
[00:24:07] That's it. That's how I try to live my
[00:24:09] life. You're called to be joyful. In
[00:24:12] fact, you're you're commanded to be
[00:24:14] joyful.
[00:24:14] >> Totally agree.
[00:24:15] >> You are. You are.
[00:24:16] >> What is that? Susie has that thing all
[00:24:18] over our house. First Thessalonians,
[00:24:21] rejoice always. Never stop praying.
[00:24:23] >> Yes. I like it.
[00:24:24] >> It's my favorite. Right. No, you're
[00:24:26] absolutely right. And
[00:24:27] >> and Philippians 4:4, which is always
[00:24:31] Be full of joy in the Lord. I say again,
[00:24:34] rejoice.
[00:24:35] >> Yeah.
[00:24:36] >> Yeah.
[00:24:36] >> I That's just such a wonder. It's funny
[00:24:39] that that's triggering to people.
[00:24:40] Whatever it was, you were triggering
[00:24:43] people. And I felt like it was such an
[00:24:45] act of bravery cuz it's one thing to
[00:24:47] like, you know, stand up in the Congress
[00:24:48] and say something unpopular or even like
[00:24:50] go into battle, but to stand apart from
[00:24:53] your neighbors at the $50,000 a year
[00:24:57] Episcopal school in Northwest Washington
[00:24:59] where there's just so much conformity.
[00:25:02] >> Yes.
[00:25:02] >> That ticks balls. Well, I appreciate it.
[00:25:05] I don't think I really thought of it
[00:25:06] that way. I was so used I don't know.
[00:25:08] I've lived my life. We were, as you
[00:25:09] said, we grew up that way. And
[00:25:12] >> what do you mean?
[00:25:13] >> Cuz I did say, okay, so I haven't looked
[00:25:15] at a lot of your I don't I'm not on
[00:25:17] Twitter that much because it's it's too
[00:25:19] upsetting to me. But um I did go and
[00:25:21] check your Twitter feed, which I I
[00:25:23] thought was amazing. And uh but some of
[00:25:25] the responses are like, "Oh, of course
[00:25:27] you feel this way because you had such a
[00:25:29] horrible childhood." It's like, wait a
[00:25:31] second. What do you people are very
[00:25:33] personal that way noticed
[00:25:36] >> attacking your childhood. What did you
[00:25:37] think of your ch without getting, you
[00:25:38] know,
[00:25:39] >> too specific, but like you described it
[00:25:42] as happy?
[00:25:45] >> I actually had the best childhood. I'm
[00:25:48] really sorry for our children that
[00:25:49] didn't have the childhood that we have.
[00:25:51] >> I agree with that.
[00:25:51] >> Had because it was a just a lesson, an
[00:25:57] adventure all the time. You could define
[00:25:59] your own boundaries as long as you were
[00:26:02] as you went to school, you were
[00:26:03] respectful to your parents, and you
[00:26:04] showed up for dinner. Uh there were
[00:26:07] really no other boundaries.
[00:26:08] >> Nope.
[00:26:09] >> Nothing. That was it. So, and I loved
[00:26:13] you and I loved our father and I loved
[00:26:15] our mother. So, um we had a happy home
[00:26:19] life and it was creative and
[00:26:22] interesting. It was in a beautiful part
[00:26:23] of the world that was at that time very
[00:26:26] wellun in California. In fact, I think
[00:26:28] it was the cleanest, most efficient
[00:26:30] state uh in all 50. And it was obviously
[00:26:35] the the center of creativity in in the
[00:26:38] country and in the world. And it was
[00:26:41] fantastically beautiful everywhere. I
[00:26:43] mean, it has every single climate. We
[00:26:45] lived near the beach and we got to go
[00:26:48] swimming in the ocean and we had a bunch
[00:26:50] of dogs and we got to explore. We got to
[00:26:52] explore with our friends and experiment.
[00:26:55] And
[00:26:57] we also went, I'm sure you recall it was
[00:27:00] a much different time. We could actually
[00:27:01] walk across the border into Tijana,
[00:27:03] Mexico and uh
[00:27:07] engage in all sorts of interesting
[00:27:09] >> It wasn't the most wholesome place.
[00:27:10] >> No, it really wasn't. I was suddenly
[00:27:12] thinking
[00:27:14] >> is Revolution Avenue still around. Is it
[00:27:16] still accessible to American kids? I
[00:27:19] think the whole thing is so different
[00:27:21] now. You know, not in Tijuana a lot, but
[00:27:23] I think it's like a hu I think it's like
[00:27:24] bigger than San Diego. It's controlled
[00:27:26] the drug cartels. I don't know. I
[00:27:27] shouldn't say that.
[00:27:28] >> I've never been against Mexico. I've
[00:27:29] always liked Mexico. Obviously, Mexico
[00:27:32] has done more harm to the United States
[00:27:33] than any other country. Not even close.
[00:27:35] But I still like Mexicans and I still
[00:27:37] just have happy memories from Mexico.
[00:27:38] I'm like, will never be against it just
[00:27:40] for I don't know, reasons of memory. But
[00:27:44] uh I wouldn't go there to Tijana.
[00:27:46] >> No. And I wouldn't send my 12-year-old
[00:27:47] child there either.
[00:27:49] >> Uh no. But we were Yeah, that's right.
[00:27:52] We were allowed to do basically whatever
[00:27:54] we wanted as long as we, you know, were
[00:27:57] polite and family loyalty was at the
[00:27:59] center of everything. Of course.
[00:28:00] >> Yes. Yes. Um and it was interesting. Our
[00:28:05] father was involved in so many
[00:28:06] interesting pursuits. He had interesting
[00:28:08] friends.
[00:28:09] >> Yes.
[00:28:10] >> Our friends were interesting. He
[00:28:12] included us. He treated us like adults
[00:28:13] where it was appropriate, I guess, all
[00:28:16] the time.
[00:28:19] He taught us invaluable things that no
[00:28:21] one teaches their children anymore. For
[00:28:22] sure. I mean,
[00:28:24] >> yeah.
[00:28:25] >> And you you've used the word creativity
[00:28:27] a couple times. It felt to me looking
[00:28:29] back, I never have thought about it
[00:28:31] until recently as I see the decline in
[00:28:33] creativity and the awards given to
[00:28:35] people who are totally non-creative,
[00:28:36] which is almost everyone in our
[00:28:38] professional class, like zero
[00:28:39] creativity. And the creative people are
[00:28:41] penalized. And that's made me think that
[00:28:44] maybe the saddest change is the
[00:28:46] disappearance of creativity and the
[00:28:48] abundance of it in our childhood. Like
[00:28:50] that was way I never heard anybody
[00:28:54] certainly not our father ever talk about
[00:28:55] how rich someone was. Who gives a [ __ ]
[00:28:57] ever? Plus no one noticed. Everybody was
[00:29:00] pretty much in the same boat. We lived
[00:29:01] in an expensive area. We had a nice
[00:29:02] house but it was not absurd. No one had
[00:29:05] $5 million houses. No one had $50
[00:29:07] million houses either.
[00:29:09] >> There wasn't such a thing.
[00:29:10] >> No, there was literally not such a
[00:29:11] thing. So the measure was and there was
[00:29:13] much less economic anxiety obviously it
[00:29:15] was a different economy but still the
[00:29:18] values were different and creativity the
[00:29:21] the ability to create something out of
[00:29:23] nothing that was like really prized.
[00:29:25] >> Yes. Especially if your father gave you
[00:29:27] the what was the the James Bond cookbook
[00:29:31] >> and what was the other one?
[00:29:32] >> Oh yeah.
[00:29:33] >> Sorry. I guess they're illegal now.
[00:29:35] Sorry.
[00:29:36] >> Well he had a library. He had a first of
[00:29:38] all he had a real library like almost a
[00:29:39] public library in our house and he'd
[00:29:41] read every book in it and he was very
[00:29:43] serious about it and it was talk about
[00:29:45] Catholic tastes I mean
[00:29:47] >> broad tastes universal interest it's
[00:29:50] just like nothing he wasn't interested
[00:29:51] in and there was a book about every
[00:29:52] possible thing and there was a ton of
[00:29:54] extremist literature on all sides he
[00:29:57] didn't buy any it wasn't like he was an
[00:29:59] extremist he was not an extremist at all
[00:30:01] but he was like really interested in
[00:30:02] knowing what people thought and why and
[00:30:03] this revolution happened and he hated
[00:30:06] the Soviets but he had tons tons of
[00:30:07] Soviet propaganda literature, which was
[00:30:09] interesting.
[00:30:10] >> Yes,
[00:30:10] >> he had tons of leftwing and right-wing,
[00:30:12] mostly leftwing, actually. And he was
[00:30:14] not leftwing, but
[00:30:15] >> that was back when they were creative,
[00:30:17] when people on the left actually were
[00:30:20] artists and and thinkers and they were
[00:30:24] open-minded.
[00:30:25] >> He would always defend people whose
[00:30:27] politics he hated if they were creative.
[00:30:29] He would say, "This guy's an [ __ ] I
[00:30:30] think these ideas are horrible, but man,
[00:30:32] look at the songs he wrote or the novels
[00:30:34] he produced." Or do you remember that?
[00:30:36] >> Yes. Very well. Clearly. Yes.
[00:30:38] >> Like that counted in your favor.
[00:30:41] >> Yes.
[00:30:43] >> Huh. And that's that's kind of gone.
[00:30:46] >> It seems like it.
[00:30:47] >> So I I didn't even know this until you I
[00:30:51] can't believe we're actually doing this
[00:30:52] interview. I'm so glad. But um
[00:30:53] >> I'm so glad to
[00:30:55] >> Thank you. Could we Could I ask you an
[00:30:57] ALB question, by the way? Best nicotine
[00:30:59] product in the universe.
[00:31:01] >> Well, thank you, Buck. I'm glad you
[00:31:02] noticed.
[00:31:02] >> And uh yes, I did. And I'm generally,
[00:31:05] this is the problem I have when I'm
[00:31:06] talk. I'm generally double barreling or
[00:31:08] sometimes triple barreling.
[00:31:10] >> And those are nines.
[00:31:11] >> Yes. I'm looking forward to the twelves.
[00:31:14] >> So on the question of nicotine, would
[00:31:15] you say, and I know it's hard to assess
[00:31:17] yourself, but would you say you dick
[00:31:18] around?
[00:31:21] >> If I like it, I like it. Yeah. I really
[00:31:25] like this a lot. Although it's So this
[00:31:28] is the question I have. Where does one
[00:31:30] tuck it? I know where people tuck this
[00:31:31] in. I get that. They stuff it.
[00:31:34] >> Yes, they stuff it.
[00:31:36] >> By the way, they should be more upfront
[00:31:38] on the labeling on the Zin.
[00:31:40] >> I know.
[00:31:40] >> They should actually tell you that.
[00:31:42] That's why it tastes like [ __ ] That's
[00:31:43] why it's like dehydrated. They forget to
[00:31:45] tell you it needs mucosa, but a
[00:31:47] particular type of mucosa to activate.
[00:31:50] >> Yeah, they got it wrong.
[00:31:52] >> I think they're expecting the
[00:31:54] Bangladeshi guy in the convenience store
[00:31:56] to tell you and to hand you the KY and
[00:31:58] the surgical glove and just be like, I
[00:32:00] think you know how this works. It's like
[00:32:02] when they have those little crack pipes
[00:32:03] at the counter with the flour in them
[00:32:04] and like no it's not a crack pipe. I
[00:32:06] think they're
[00:32:08] not it's an incense burner, it's a
[00:32:10] whistle.
[00:32:11] So I think they're expecting like if
[00:32:14] you're using Zen, you know how this
[00:32:16] works.
[00:32:16] >> Yes. Exactly. You know what I mean?
[00:32:17] That's a good point. That's so I
[00:32:19] actually feel like a bit of a an amateur
[00:32:21] asking this, but I talk to people and
[00:32:23] all of a sudden I feel like my Biden my
[00:32:25] upper pallet is like coming out. Your
[00:32:28] Biden is
[00:32:29] >> my Biden, you know, like the fake teeth
[00:32:31] I have up here.
[00:32:34] >> Anyway, sorry.
[00:32:35] >> I try to rotate them around because
[00:32:39] there are parts of my gums that get
[00:32:41] neglected and
[00:32:42] >> Yes.
[00:32:43] >> I believe in kind of sharing the wealth.
[00:32:45] >> Yes. Plus, there are different taste
[00:32:47] buds throughout the entire topography of
[00:32:49] your tongue and cheek. Well, it wasn't
[00:32:52] that long ago that many Americans
[00:32:53] thought they were inherently safe from
[00:32:55] the kinds of disasters you hear about
[00:32:56] all the time in third world countries. A
[00:32:58] total power loss, for example, people
[00:33:00] freezing to death in their own homes.
[00:33:02] That could never happen here. Obviously,
[00:33:04] it's America.
[00:33:06] People are recalculating, unfortunately,
[00:33:08] cuz they have no choice. The last few
[00:33:10] years have taught us that. Remember when
[00:33:12] the power grid in Texas failed in the
[00:33:14] dead of winter? Yeah, it happened and it
[00:33:17] could happen again. So, the government
[00:33:19] is not actually as reliable as you'd
[00:33:21] hope they would be. And the truth is,
[00:33:24] the future is unforeseeable. And things
[00:33:26] do seem to be getting a little squirly.
[00:33:28] So, if the grid does go down, you need
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[00:34:28] to shop the grid doctor for power you
[00:34:31] can trust this winter. Lastount
[00:34:34] supply.com. Are you surprised since
[00:34:36] we're only really a year apart? Um, so
[00:34:39] we grew up and our father always treated
[00:34:41] us the same. There was never like listen
[00:34:44] to your brother. It was it was a fully
[00:34:46] egalitarian household like in a way that
[00:34:48] also doesn't exist anyway.
[00:34:49] >> I'm sure that was frustrating as the
[00:34:50] oldest himself.
[00:34:51] >> I never even questioned it. It was like
[00:34:52] we had the same bedtime, same rules.
[00:34:54] There were never any difference at all
[00:34:55] in the way that he treated us.
[00:34:56] >> Same buddies,
[00:34:57] >> which is one of the reasons we've always
[00:34:58] gotten along our whole lives cuz he
[00:35:00] treated us fairly.
[00:35:01] >> Yes.
[00:35:02] >> By the way, if you want to make people
[00:35:03] hate each other, treat them unfairly.
[00:35:05] >> Oh, I've noticed.
[00:35:05] >> Like institute affirmative action or DEI
[00:35:07] and you will have like serious race
[00:35:09] problems.
[00:35:10] >> But we never had anything like that. It
[00:35:12] was a pure meritocracy in our house with
[00:35:15] equality at the center of it. But
[00:35:16] >> the most intuitive accidental father
[00:35:19] there has ever been. I mean, this was a
[00:35:21] man who did not strive to be a dad.
[00:35:23] >> No.
[00:35:24] >> And he ended up being pretty much the
[00:35:26] best father ever.
[00:35:28] >> The details of my conception have always
[00:35:29] been a little bit hazy, but I did get
[00:35:31] the
[00:35:31] >> I don't think they were legal.
[00:35:34] >> I don't want to know.
[00:35:35] >> And I'm sure they were creative.
[00:35:38] I know. I can't.
[00:35:40] >> Sorry. Oh, I can't even think about it.
[00:35:42] But my strong impression just from like
[00:35:45] comments picked up over the years is
[00:35:47] that was not intentional at all. Like
[00:35:49] the whole thing was not intentional.
[00:35:50] >> I got that sense. It was intentional by
[00:35:52] God.
[00:35:53] >> Yeah, I was God's.
[00:35:54] >> I totally agree with that. The closest I
[00:35:55] ever got to asking Pop about it was he
[00:35:57] obviously married like a complete
[00:35:59] lunatic and and he was such a smart
[00:36:01] person and he really understood women
[00:36:02] and loved women and really paid close
[00:36:04] attention to women. Like why did they
[00:36:06] love him?
[00:36:07] >> They loved him. He loved them not just
[00:36:08] in carnal ways but like he thought they
[00:36:10] were really interesting and listen to
[00:36:11] them all the time
[00:36:12] >> and he had such deep wisdom about women
[00:36:15] >> and so I once
[00:36:17] >> he was the deepest on women and it was
[00:36:19] out of love like true love he thought
[00:36:21] they were amazing but uh
[00:36:23] >> and he also loved them in other ways but
[00:36:25] but whatever but anyway I once said to
[00:36:26] him like
[00:36:28] >> given your deep knowledge of women how
[00:36:30] could you have married a really crazy
[00:36:31] one like how did you do that and he goes
[00:36:34] there upsides
[00:36:35] [Music]
[00:36:37] That's all he said. I WAS LIKE, I DON'T
[00:36:38] WANT TO HEAR ANYMORE.
[00:36:39] >> SHE WAS CLEARLY NEVER BORING,
[00:36:41] >> RIGHT? NO, I guess that was it. You
[00:36:42] know, I go with Yeah. Well, they're
[00:36:44] never boring once you engage with them.
[00:36:46] They're like amazing. And
[00:36:48] >> but she had a lot to say.
[00:36:49] >> Yeah.
[00:36:49] >> Especially in public settings.
[00:36:51] >> Yeah.
[00:36:52] >> Yeah. I can't imagine.
[00:36:53] >> Yeah. I can't even get I'm sorry. I
[00:36:55] don't even know where we were.
[00:36:57] >> So, one thing I wanted to ask you was
[00:36:59] >> when we were kids and like everyone in
[00:37:01] our family I know this is like so
[00:37:03] forbidden. This is more forbidden than
[00:37:04] Israel, but like everyone in our family
[00:37:05] smoked cigarettes. Like everybody and
[00:37:07] everyone they knew smoked cigarettes and
[00:37:11] like the question was filter or
[00:37:13] non-filter. And of course our family was
[00:37:14] strongly on the non-filter side.
[00:37:16] >> Gay or straight.
[00:37:17] >> Yeah. I mean, come on.
[00:37:18] >> He used to call them straits, folks.
[00:37:20] >> Yes, I remember. Camel straits are the
[00:37:22] best cigarette ever made.
[00:37:23] >> Yeah, that's literally true. And Papa
[00:37:24] would always say
[00:37:26] >> it's important not to have a filter in
[00:37:27] your cigarette because when you're
[00:37:28] behind enemy lines,
[00:37:29] >> you can field strip it.
[00:37:30] >> You can field strip it. You can field
[00:37:32] strip it. You break the the butt.
[00:37:34] >> Done it many times.
[00:37:35] >> Roll up the paper, flick it away. Then
[00:37:37] the enemy will never know you were
[00:37:39] smoking American cigarettes.
[00:37:41] >> They might
[00:37:41] >> they'd only know you were American if
[00:37:42] you died and they saw your dental work.
[00:37:46] >> It didn't make a lot of sense, but
[00:37:47] anyway, but the in our family, they
[00:37:49] were, you know, people were very
[00:37:51] strongly in favor of of cigarettes and
[00:37:53] tobacco. It sounds so forbidden now, but
[00:37:56] and then we were all convinced this is
[00:37:57] like so bad because America's killing
[00:37:59] itself and if we can only get people off
[00:38:01] this
[00:38:02] Everyone's going to live forever.
[00:38:05] Is it a little weird? And I'm not I
[00:38:07] don't smoke. I'm not endorsing smoking
[00:38:09] that strongly, but
[00:38:10] >> I'm considering going back.
[00:38:11] >> I am too, actually. But whatever. And
[00:38:14] for this for this I reached yesterday. I
[00:38:17] literally stepped over a dog. I was
[00:38:19] talking to my girl. Stepped over a dog
[00:38:21] to join her in a booth in a restaurant.
[00:38:23] And I reached in my pocket to grab my
[00:38:25] Zippo. It's been 12 years since I've had
[00:38:27] a Zippo in my pocket.
[00:38:29] >> Seriously. I was about to light a smoke
[00:38:31] like we'd had a pizza was fantastic and
[00:38:34] I was like I know what's going to cap
[00:38:36] this off. A camel straight.
[00:38:38] >> Can you even buy them anymore?
[00:38:40] >> Even in South Carolina
[00:38:41] >> I'm lying. I actually know I bought
[00:38:43] >> Even in tobacco states. Do you know how
[00:38:44] much it costs? Oh my gosh.
[00:38:45] >> For a deck of cigarettes, how much?
[00:38:47] >> It's 12 bucks in South Carolina. It's
[00:38:50] $21 in the District of Columbia.
[00:38:53] >> Yeah. 21ucks for a deck of smokes.
[00:38:55] >> I I walked into a Circle K the other
[00:38:57] day. My girl still smokes. God bless
[00:38:59] her. And uh I walked in and I bought her
[00:39:02] some cigarettes and the guy said, "I
[00:39:05] did." And I laughed. I pulled out my
[00:39:07] wallet and I said, "It's funny. What's
[00:39:10] funny?" And I said, "Funny." That's what
[00:39:12] the guy said. I said, "Well, I've been
[00:39:13] buying cigarettes since I was 11 and
[00:39:16] they cost a dollar. Do you think it's
[00:39:19] funny to make fun of people in the
[00:39:20] retail business?" Said, "Dude, I'm not
[00:39:23] making fun of you. I'm making fun of the
[00:39:25] stupid rules."
[00:39:27] Yeah. Yeah. She had no sense of humor. I
[00:39:30] don't know.
[00:39:30] >> But you can buy benzo dioipines cheap.
[00:39:33] >> You can buy weed in any store. You can
[00:39:36] buy it online. You're encouraged to
[00:39:38] smoke pod. You're encouraged to do
[00:39:39] mushrooms. You're encouraged to do
[00:39:40] messcow or any other stuff. But you're
[00:39:43] the greatest pariah in America. You're
[00:39:45] probably encouraged to like have
[00:39:48] touchyfey love with the people in your
[00:39:51] gender.
[00:39:53] But if you're a cigarette smoker, you're
[00:39:54] the literally the dirtiest pariah in in
[00:39:58] America. Actually, that attitude is is
[00:40:02] overwhelming now, but it was still
[00:40:04] around 12 years ago when I quit smoking.
[00:40:06] And if it hadn't been, I would have quit
[00:40:07] smoking probably 15 years ago.
[00:40:10] I would have I mean I got I mean the
[00:40:12] obvious.
[00:40:13] >> So you smoked in defiance.
[00:40:15] >> I did. I smoked aggressively with joy. I
[00:40:17] did. I loved smoking and it made me
[00:40:20] smarter. It made me nicer.
[00:40:22] >> Yeah. made me a lot happier. Uh, not
[00:40:24] only your constant companion, but also
[00:40:26] like a self-defense weapon or an
[00:40:29] aggressive weapon. If you, you know,
[00:40:31] you've got a lit cigarette on you,
[00:40:33] you're a force to be reckoned with, I
[00:40:36] would say. Plus, are you ever alone when
[00:40:38] you have a cigarette? No.
[00:40:40] >> You sound so much like our father cuz
[00:40:42] he, of course, he did once wield a
[00:40:44] cigarette uh, in self-defense. And
[00:40:45] >> I had to do that, too.
[00:40:46] >> You did it, too?
[00:40:47] >> I most certainly did. Well, maybe not on
[00:40:50] someone's cheek, but on their wrist. I
[00:40:52] held their hand
[00:40:54] >> cuz he was holding my hand.
[00:40:56] >> I remember
[00:40:56] >> it was like my second job. And it was a
[00:40:58] guy who had a married guy, Christian,
[00:41:01] self-ev.
[00:41:12] [Music]
[00:41:14] >> Oh, he's hitting on you.
[00:41:15] >> Yeah. at a company picnic
[00:41:18] like the first week I was on the job and
[00:41:21] I said please remove your hand from my
[00:41:23] knee and he didn't so I grabbed his hand
[00:41:26] grabbed his wrist and put my cigarette
[00:41:28] out on his hand and it was a Saturday
[00:41:30] afternoon and I had had some cocktails
[00:41:33] but I also felt completely justified in
[00:41:35] doing that I did and he pulled his hand
[00:41:37] and went and I remember sorry to go down
[00:41:40] this rabbit hole but I uh the ne I
[00:41:42] thought about it soberly on Sunday and
[00:41:45] Monday morning as I was going into the
[00:41:46] office and that there could be real
[00:41:48] repercussions for doing this. He was
[00:41:49] like the chief of staff of the
[00:41:51] organization. It was a political
[00:41:52] organization and he wielded a lot of
[00:41:54] power and I went in I remember I was
[00:41:58] doing some copying some document and I
[00:42:00] was standing in the break room next to
[00:42:01] the Xerox machine and he came up to me
[00:42:04] and he said, "Can't believe you put a
[00:42:06] cigarette out of my hand." I said, "I
[00:42:09] can't believe you touched me and you
[00:42:10] wouldn't let go."
[00:42:12] That was it. And we had like a staring
[00:42:14] contest and then he like you know was
[00:42:17] lip gurled and he looked down and walked
[00:42:18] out. I never heard anything about it. He
[00:42:20] never told anyone.
[00:42:23] Right. So I think it is fair.
[00:42:25] >> I think that's called gay bashing.
[00:42:26] >> No, I think you are um recklessly or
[00:42:33] Yeah. You're you're Yeah, you're without
[00:42:35] proper defense when you don't have a
[00:42:37] cigarette. You should have a cigarette
[00:42:38] with you at all times. Even if you don't
[00:42:40] smoke. That's my attitude.
[00:42:42] Seriously, I want to bring back smoking
[00:42:44] cuz actually smoking without the filter
[00:42:46] is probably pretty flipping good for
[00:42:48] you.
[00:42:48] >> I I have a lot of views on this. I don't
[00:42:51] want to articulate cuz I don't want to
[00:42:52] seem crazy but I tend to I mean we were
[00:42:55] certainly raised thinking that and our
[00:42:58] father considered filters like a really
[00:42:59] bad thing and
[00:43:02] >> u and you know smoking does
[00:43:05] you know whatever a real mother died of
[00:43:06] lung cancer you know you can and she
[00:43:08] smoked unfiltered
[00:43:09] >> palmels uh
[00:43:11] >> she engaged in some other activities
[00:43:13] that may have been responsible for her
[00:43:14] cancer
[00:43:15] >> I think when you're in the dark side and
[00:43:17] you get cancer it makes sense
[00:43:20] >> what What do you mean?
[00:43:21] >> I think if you lead a life of extreme
[00:43:26] narcissism,
[00:43:27] >> Yes.
[00:43:28] >> and you are completely self-focused
[00:43:31] and one, it's unhealthy. Two, it's it's
[00:43:34] unhealthy outlook and the people around
[00:43:36] you suffer.
[00:43:37] >> Yes.
[00:43:37] >> But I can't imagine you as an individual
[00:43:39] don't suffer. And now that I'm 54 and
[00:43:42] I'm old enough to actually witness
[00:43:44] people who've lived their lives this
[00:43:45] way, and I mean selffocused
[00:43:48] all the time, not one of them is healthy
[00:43:51] >> physically, mentally. It's stifle. It
[00:43:54] kills something in someone.
[00:43:56] >> It's like it's like, and not to attack
[00:44:00] people who aren't able to have children,
[00:44:02] but people who've cho men who've chosen
[00:44:05] not to have children. They reach a
[00:44:07] certain age and they are intractable in
[00:44:10] ways that are damaging to them and those
[00:44:13] around them. She was not a man, but she
[00:44:17] had that same problem. And I think I
[00:44:19] think she like
[00:44:21] was drowning in like me.
[00:44:23] >> Yeah. Drowning in like me. Exactly.
[00:44:25] Totally esphyxiated on herself.
[00:44:27] >> So you made reference to dogs. You've
[00:44:29] conceded that you have five. You think
[00:44:30] five is the perfect number. you were
[00:44:33] describing your childhood and you
[00:44:34] pointed out the presence, the
[00:44:36] omnipresence of dogs and uh as a
[00:44:39] highlight, why are dogs important?
[00:44:43] >> Well, dogs I think I've thought a lot
[00:44:45] about this aspect raising children with
[00:44:47] dogs. I think it's important because
[00:44:50] your children are the center of your
[00:44:51] universe as they should be,
[00:44:53] >> right?
[00:44:53] >> But the last thing you want to do is
[00:44:55] convey that to your children, right?
[00:44:57] >> So, I mean, that's a good way to [ __ ] up
[00:45:00] your children. So having dogs around it
[00:45:02] instills in them they have their first
[00:45:05] my first loving relationships were with
[00:45:08] my very small family of which you're
[00:45:10] half and dogs we had a lot of dogs
[00:45:14] around all the time
[00:45:16] >> and there people I mean have written
[00:45:19] endlessly and talked endlessly about how
[00:45:20] wonderful dogs are but I don't think
[00:45:22] they talk enough about how wise dogs are
[00:45:25] and how dogs are clued into like a
[00:45:29] communications channel that most people
[00:45:32] are not picking up. Um, my dogs know
[00:45:36] what I'm going to do long before I do
[00:45:39] it. They know exactly my intentions.
[00:45:42] It's weird. If I if I'm working in my
[00:45:44] office and I've got five four dog beds
[00:45:46] in my office underneath the bed,
[00:45:49] underneath the desk, and if I got up to
[00:45:52] go,
[00:45:52] >> where does the fifth dog go?
[00:45:54] >> Uh, three of them are shamefully small.
[00:45:57] So, two two of them two of them. Anybody
[00:46:00] else's brood, I'd say those are pseudo
[00:46:02] dogs, but actually one of my small dogs
[00:46:05] is an incredible relentless Actually,
[00:46:07] you know her. She was a gift from you.
[00:46:09] >> She is um
[00:46:10] >> a hunting dog. That's my defense.
[00:46:12] >> She's a hunting dog. She's got autism.
[00:46:15] >> Yep. She's bad.
[00:46:16] >> Bad.
[00:46:17] >> She is the most well-meaning.
[00:46:19] >> Yes, she is. She means well.
[00:46:20] >> 100% goodnatured and
[00:46:22] >> pretty good in the quail field, I will
[00:46:24] say.
[00:46:24] >> Yep. She also has unairring uh aim. She
[00:46:28] will hit you right in center mass every
[00:46:30] time she sees you. I have more scars
[00:46:32] from that dog on my face. In fact, in
[00:46:35] the morning when I
[00:46:36] >> wake up, I now have started putting
[00:46:38] lightning collars on three of the five
[00:46:40] before I even let them into the
[00:46:42] backyard, which is actually kind of
[00:46:44] impressive cuz it's dark. I've had no
[00:46:46] coffee. I'm usually naked and I'm
[00:46:49] affixing lightning collars to three
[00:46:52] dogs, one of whom continually bounces up
[00:46:54] and slams me in the face with her snout.
[00:46:57] >> Yeah,
[00:46:57] >> it's amazing. Anyway, dogs are an
[00:46:59] endless endless source of joy and
[00:47:02] affection.
[00:47:02] >> Well, actually, even today I was telling
[00:47:04] cuz it's Christmas so everyone's at the
[00:47:06] house or a lot of people are at the
[00:47:07] house. Your relatives are at the house
[00:47:09] and Uncle Buck's coming. Oh, is he
[00:47:11] bringing? And cuz I've never seen you
[00:47:13] travel, I don't think a single time ever
[00:47:15] in life without a dog. At least one dog.
[00:47:17] You always bring at least one dog.
[00:47:19] >> But you're dogless today. She's kind of
[00:47:21] vocal and she's not very respectful to
[00:47:24] expensive camera equipment or genitals.
[00:47:28] >> Yeah. No.
[00:47:28] >> So, if I was a smoker, it'd be great
[00:47:31] because then keep her at bay. But, um,
[00:47:35] >> all she'd need is about 6,000 cigarette
[00:47:38] burns and then maybe
[00:47:39] >> No, I know. Ex. I don't think that would
[00:47:40] work. No, I don't think I would either.
[00:47:42] But you are surrounded by dogs. You work
[00:47:44] with dogs. You, as I just said, you
[00:47:45] travel with dogs. You're you are
[00:47:47] inseparable in the minds of everyone who
[00:47:49] knows you from dogs.
[00:47:51] They have great insight.
[00:47:53] >> You said that's one of the main reasons
[00:47:55] they improve our lives.
[00:47:58] >> I think so. I mean, I I talk to my dogs
[00:48:01] and they understand me. My dogs have
[00:48:03] actually
[00:48:05] a very a better understanding of the
[00:48:08] English language than I think most
[00:48:09] people I deal with outside of this room.
[00:48:11] Um, they're so much smarter than people
[00:48:15] give them credit for and wise and kind.
[00:48:18] And of course, it does remind me of the
[00:48:20] the great little joke, lock your dog and
[00:48:23] your wife in the trunk of the car, come
[00:48:25] back after three days and see who's
[00:48:27] grateful. The answer to that is always
[00:48:31] not your wife. Um, so they're forgiving.
[00:48:35] They are they are actually the essence
[00:48:37] of purity. I think they're even though
[00:48:40] they're capable, they're not capable of
[00:48:42] artifice. A dog will never pretend to be
[00:48:45] happy when it's not.
[00:48:48] And they have no um no sense of vanity.
[00:48:52] They're they're perfectly willing to
[00:48:56] display their immediate and current
[00:48:58] emotion at all times. And their emotions
[00:49:00] are almost exclusively loving. Uh now I
[00:49:04] have a predator. I have a three-legged
[00:49:07] predator.
[00:49:07] >> What a wonderful a wonderful
[00:49:09] description. Boy, I couldn't have
[00:49:10] matched that.
[00:49:11] >> Well, it's true, don't you?
[00:49:12] >> Oh, it's so true. I mean, what I have
[00:49:14] five dogs at my house right now, too.
[00:49:15] I'll just admit. Um, so
[00:49:17] >> you're winning that you're winning the
[00:49:18] granddog competition, I would say. I'm
[00:49:21] not about to render an opinion about
[00:49:23] which is best, but
[00:49:24] >> and can I say not to make this into a
[00:49:26] cultural thing, but the and I know that
[00:49:28] there are other I'm sure that there are
[00:49:29] other cultures that feel the same way. I
[00:49:31] don't know what they might be, but the
[00:49:33] culture that we grew up in, which was a
[00:49:34] culture, was I mean, none of these were
[00:49:38] even questioned like dogs.
[00:49:40] >> Yes.
[00:49:40] >> And and other things, politeness,
[00:49:42] bravery, loyalty, but dogs were in that
[00:49:44] lit like that was just unquestioned.
[00:49:47] Yes.
[00:49:47] >> Like dogs were at the center of the
[00:49:49] culture. or not just the family, but the
[00:49:50] culture we grew up in.
[00:49:52] >> Very much so. Oh, very much so. I never
[00:49:55] saw our father cry except when our dogs
[00:49:58] died. And I
[00:49:58] >> That's correct.
[00:49:59] >> Gotten a little more emotional as I've
[00:50:01] gotten older. So, I've occasionally shed
[00:50:03] a tear about something other than a dog
[00:50:05] dying. But I've never been as affected
[00:50:09] by death as my various dog's death. And
[00:50:13] I'm also convinced convinced 100%. That
[00:50:17] my capacity for joy is less than it was
[00:50:22] before my last dog died.
[00:50:24] But I'm also convinced 100%. That we
[00:50:28] will see them all again. We will
[00:50:30] convince of that too.
[00:50:31] >> Be reunited.
[00:50:33] >> Um I have a particular dog that you know
[00:50:36] who was what's the phrase you use? A
[00:50:38] lifetime dog or the the special dog.
[00:50:41] And you know,
[00:50:42] >> and now you agree that everyone has one
[00:50:43] of those. If you have enough dogs,
[00:50:45] there's always a dog where you're like,
[00:50:46] "Oo, I'm never going to have a dog like
[00:50:47] this again."
[00:50:48] >> Yes. And boy, do I love my dogs. And
[00:50:50] >> and unlike raising children where you
[00:50:53] could never indicate which one of your
[00:50:55] children is your favorite. Not that that
[00:50:57] ever exists.
[00:50:58] >> No.
[00:50:59] >> Um, with dogs, I think it's completely
[00:51:01] the opposite. My strategy is to
[00:51:04] convey to each and every one of my dogs
[00:51:07] privately that they that they are my
[00:51:11] favorite. So, every one of my dogs is
[00:51:12] going around being like, I'm dad's
[00:51:15] favorite.
[00:51:17] Yeah, I know you engage in a little bit
[00:51:19] of that. You've got to.
[00:51:22] Anyway, I do with my children, by the
[00:51:24] way. They all I think they all have that
[00:51:26] impression. I hope so.
[00:51:27] >> They are. Gosh.
[00:51:29] >> But yeah, you had a dog. you had that
[00:51:30] lifetime dog.
[00:51:32] >> I have many pictures of that dog on my
[00:51:34] phone cuz I not my dog, but I did I felt
[00:51:36] real love for that dog. And my favorite
[00:51:39] picture of that dog is was called Bella.
[00:51:41] Uh was in the dog park in the rich lady
[00:51:44] dog park directly across the street from
[00:51:46] our house in Washington that we both
[00:51:48] used every day. And they're always a
[00:51:50] million ladies in the park. You know,
[00:51:52] they're all nice. I don't I'm not mean
[00:51:53] attack anybody, but they're all a little
[00:51:55] little bit uptight.
[00:51:56] >> Yes. went to HBS, but now they're
[00:51:58] staying home to raise their kids very
[00:51:59] methodically. That kind of thing. Let me
[00:52:02] look it up.
[00:52:02] >> Let me look it up. And your dogs have
[00:52:06] never kind of been with that program at
[00:52:07] all.
[00:52:07] >> They're off leash dogs.
[00:52:09] >> They are off leash dogs. And your that
[00:52:11] one dog was an amazing hunter. Finish
[00:52:14] spits.
[00:52:14] >> Yes.
[00:52:15] >> And this dog had killed a squirrel and
[00:52:17] has in her mouth the squirrel was like,
[00:52:20] you know, it was a black squirrel.
[00:52:21] >> A black squirrel.
[00:52:22] >> And she was this deep, beautiful red.
[00:52:25] And just the cont the contrast from a
[00:52:28] photographic perspective was powerful. I
[00:52:30] had I had that on my screen saver for
[00:52:33] for years until my son got old enough to
[00:52:35] notice that his picture wasn't on there.
[00:52:40] >> Can I tell my one dog park story which
[00:52:42] is like family lore which is like my
[00:52:44] favorite story which I've told at many
[00:52:46] dinner parties about you.
[00:52:48] >> Which one?
[00:52:50] It's not a bad one.
[00:52:52] >> No. So you were at war. So in DC, of
[00:52:54] course, our parks, it's a federal zone.
[00:52:56] So our parks are policed by park police.
[00:52:58] Actual park police.
[00:52:59] >> Oh, yes, they are.
[00:53:00] >> Yes. Sometimes on a horseback.
[00:53:01] >> Yes.
[00:53:02] >> And this specific dog park was I mean,
[00:53:04] when I say it was across street from my
[00:53:05] house, like I could see it from my bed.
[00:53:06] It was right there. It was no,
[00:53:07] >> but it was extensive. It It went miles
[00:53:09] actually. We amazing park system in
[00:53:11] Washington. And this is called this was
[00:53:13] called Battery Kimble Park.
[00:53:14] >> It was a Civil War battery. Beautiful
[00:53:16] park. Beautiful part of the city. And
[00:53:18] you would walk your dogs in there every
[00:53:20] day. And you had a million dogs as
[00:53:22] always. And you never leash them because
[00:53:24] you're a free man and this is America
[00:53:27] >> and they're well behaved. They don't
[00:53:28] bother other people.
[00:53:29] >> Well,
[00:53:30] >> generally
[00:53:32] >> pretty responsive dogs.
[00:53:33] >> Yeah, they pull the wildlife a little
[00:53:34] bit, but
[00:53:35] >> Oh, that's for sure. Well, that's I
[00:53:37] don't know. That's sort of your
[00:53:38] responsibility when you're
[00:53:40] >> It is the food chain, isn't it? Like I'm
[00:53:42] sorry if if you can't handle it, get out
[00:53:44] of the park,
[00:53:44] >> dude. I'm with you. I remember when this
[00:53:47] happened, but like every woman in the
[00:53:48] neighborhood is probably still talking
[00:53:49] about it. Um,
[00:53:51] >> oh, this is in a city rife with all
[00:53:54] sorts of other crime. So, every time I
[00:53:56] know it's not this story, but every time
[00:53:57] I was accosted by someone and the next
[00:54:00] door, that's silly uh next door online
[00:54:03] thing
[00:54:04] >> precoid in a city that has overwhelming
[00:54:07] physical and property crimes. Uh, the
[00:54:11] number the most prevalent complaint on
[00:54:13] that list serve, oh, I saw someone
[00:54:15] walking without a leash and this is a
[00:54:17] terrible thing. And literally that would
[00:54:19] garner the most commentary from any
[00:54:22] nextdoor post.
[00:54:23] >> We need better rich people in this
[00:54:24] country.
[00:54:25] >> Yes.
[00:54:25] >> That's the number one thing we need.
[00:54:26] >> Yes. Yes. Well, they need some hardship
[00:54:28] cuz complaining about [ __ ] like that.
[00:54:30] And not only pick aune but like
[00:54:33] repulsive.
[00:54:33] >> It is repulsive. I totally agree. And
[00:54:35] they have no self-awareness at all. And
[00:54:37] they're all like that. But anyway, my
[00:54:39] universal response, I'm sorry to
[00:54:40] interrupt you. My universal response to
[00:54:42] them and to authorities who would
[00:54:43] occasionally encost would be I'm so
[00:54:46] relieved you've solved all the other
[00:54:48] problems in in DC. All the other crimes
[00:54:50] there are no rapes. There are no armed
[00:54:52] robberies. CVS isn't being ransacked on
[00:54:55] a daily basis. Like thank you. I really
[00:54:57] appreciate I'm so glad you solved that
[00:54:59] problem. Now we can deal with lesser
[00:55:00] crimes like leashes.
[00:55:03] >> My god,
[00:55:04] >> they did not appreciate the lecture.
[00:55:05] After many such lectures from you, they
[00:55:08] decided to arrest you and they told you
[00:55:11] that that if we catch you again without
[00:55:12] a leash, you're going to jail. Sir, sir.
[00:55:16] And then you get approached by a couple
[00:55:18] of these officers, I think on horseback.
[00:55:21] I was walking through a beautiful meadow
[00:55:23] at about 10:30 in the morning,
[00:55:25] absolutely deserted, and I had four dogs
[00:55:28] with me. And we got all the way to the
[00:55:30] end of the meadow, and I heard someone
[00:55:32] say, "Hey,
[00:55:34] hey." Someone's clearly yelling, not in
[00:55:37] not like they needed help, but like they
[00:55:39] were trying to get my attention. I'm
[00:55:41] sorry, I don't respond to that. And so I
[00:55:44] turned and I saw it was on a slope, this
[00:55:47] meadow, and I could see these blue
[00:55:48] helmets coming up the meadow. So they
[00:55:51] were the horses weren't even visible.
[00:55:53] >> Helmet.
[00:55:53] >> The helmets. So I kept walking and then
[00:55:55] I was
[00:55:56] >> You and Peacekeepers.
[00:55:59] >> Exactly. So, I kept walking and then I
[00:56:02] was in the middle of the forest on a on
[00:56:04] a small beautiful path and I kept
[00:56:06] hearing this female male voice, hard to
[00:56:10] determine, was rather masculine,
[00:56:12] >> but but also flipping hysterical. So, it
[00:56:15] could only have been a soy boy with a
[00:56:18] gun or a very masculine chick. And it
[00:56:21] was. It turned out to be three cops,
[00:56:24] three park policemen on beautiful, very
[00:56:27] expensive horses with tidy helmets on.
[00:56:30] And they yelled at me for a good half
[00:56:32] mile. They finally caught up to me. And
[00:56:35] when she when they were about when this
[00:56:36] trio was about
[00:56:37] >> You made them just like yell at you and
[00:56:39] chased you.
[00:56:39] >> Completely ignored them. I'm sorry. It's
[00:56:41] my park. I'm a federal taxpayer. I also
[00:56:44] live in DC. This is right. Don't we fund
[00:56:47] that park? We fund their salaries. I'm
[00:56:49] sorry. I have a bit of a sense of
[00:56:50] entitlement about two things. Nicotine
[00:56:53] and dogs.
[00:56:54] >> Yeah.
[00:56:54] >> And that's it. And this was So I was
[00:56:58] minding my own business in our park. And
[00:57:02] so they were persistent in yelling. And
[00:57:04] when they got to be about 75 yards away,
[00:57:07] she lost her cool completely. And she
[00:57:10] yelled and said, "Stop or I'll tase your
[00:57:13] dog."
[00:57:17] I'll tase your dog.
[00:57:19] So, I'm sorry. That's just too much for
[00:57:21] me. So, I said, we yelled cuz they were
[00:57:24] still far away. I said, "You're not
[00:57:26] going to [ __ ] tase my dog. You do
[00:57:28] that." You know, real problem. And so,
[00:57:31] they were taken back by it a little bit
[00:57:33] and it they finally came.
[00:57:34] >> They hadn't met a man in a while in DC.
[00:57:36] Is that
[00:57:36] >> I guess not. I mean, too busy solving
[00:57:39] all the other crimes. So they got they
[00:57:42] finally got up to me and it was a a very
[00:57:45] authoritative squat muscular woman who
[00:57:48] was the authority figure and then two
[00:57:50] men men and who were embarrassed and I
[00:57:54] made them further embarrassed because I
[00:57:56] said this first of all don't speak to me
[00:57:57] like that don't ever speak to me like
[00:57:59] that don't threaten my child
[00:58:04] and um she didn't like that but she
[00:58:07] backed down a little bit I I actually
[00:58:09] had the I had the moral authority
[00:58:11] I was in the right and they were
[00:58:12] absolutely in the wrong.
[00:58:14] >> And I did what you're supposed to do in
[00:58:16] a situation like that is I met and
[00:58:18] exceeded their aggression
[00:58:21] >> significantly
[00:58:22] and to the point where I asked their
[00:58:24] badge numbers, asked their full names,
[00:58:26] give it to me now, pulled out my phone.
[00:58:28] I was totally obnoxious, but also in the
[00:58:31] right. And I said to those men, "How can
[00:58:33] you tolerate this? Well, she's your
[00:58:35] boss. She's telling you, and these guys
[00:58:38] literally at the end of it, this is
[00:58:39] probably a three or four minute
[00:58:42] exchange, and they ended, they gave up
[00:58:45] and they walked away. And I was on the
[00:58:49] this beautiful uh ledge that had
[00:58:52] railroad ties every 3 or 4 feet going
[00:58:54] down into this stream into this valley.
[00:58:56] You'd have no idea you're in the middle
[00:58:57] of DC. It was such a
[00:58:58] >> It's an incredible car. It's incredible.
[00:59:02] >> And they went ahead of me. She in the
[00:59:05] front steamed literally coming off her
[00:59:08] and then these two extremely embarrassed
[00:59:11] men and they started going down. Well,
[00:59:14] their horses decided this would be a
[00:59:16] great opportunity to leave some
[00:59:18] indelible artwork on the path. And a
[00:59:21] horse when a horse goes to the bathroom,
[00:59:23] it's not a subtle thing, especially when
[00:59:25] they're walking down a hill.
[00:59:28] >> So, they deposited, I don't know, 26 27
[00:59:31] lbs of artwork right there on the path.
[00:59:33] So the ent and they had to go slow
[00:59:35] because it was one of these winding
[00:59:37] paths with with railroad ties and they
[00:59:40] were stuck. So they were like slowly
[00:59:42] trying to go down when I was yelling at
[00:59:44] them the whole time. Hey, pick that up.
[00:59:46] What's wrong with you? I can't believe
[00:59:47] you're leaving that behind. Who's going
[00:59:49] to clean up after you? Oh, I am so
[00:59:51] surprised actually they did not shoot
[00:59:54] me. I was expecting it actually. I
[00:59:56] really was. It was worth it.
[00:59:57] >> It was so worth it. And actually I was
[00:59:59] enraged. I was still enraged to the
[01:00:02] point where excuse me, my Biden's coming
[01:00:05] out again. Um,
[01:00:09] I uh by the time I got back to my car,
[01:00:11] and that was probably 15 minutes later,
[01:00:14] I remember this clearly, I had gone to
[01:00:16] one of the best uh sandwich stops, I had
[01:00:18] a meeting downtown, and I was running my
[01:00:21] dogs first and it was I had stopped and
[01:00:24] I'd gotten some clam chowder from uh Bo
[01:00:28] Blair's place. I can't think from
[01:00:30] jetties. And I had a container of of
[01:00:33] clam chowder. They had good chowder.
[01:00:35] >> So agitated by the time I got even by
[01:00:37] the time I got back to my car, which is
[01:00:38] like 15 or 20 minutes later, I opened up
[01:00:41] the top of the clam chowder and promptly
[01:00:43] launched it into the air where it came
[01:00:45] and landed on my dashboard directly in
[01:00:49] the air conditioning unit. In fact, that
[01:00:52] Chevy Tahoe smelled like clam chowder
[01:00:54] for literally the next three years. It
[01:00:56] was disgusting
[01:00:56] >> until Patrick flipped it on. until
[01:00:58] Patrick flipped up and broke his neck.
[01:00:59] But I uh was I don't normally hold on to
[01:01:02] anger for very long. I've got like a
[01:01:05] reasonably quick wick and I can get
[01:01:07] pretty hot, but it it dissipates fast.
[01:01:10] This didn't I was still mad 20 25
[01:01:13] minutes later. And I drove I think I
[01:01:14] pushed my meeting back. I had to drive
[01:01:16] downtown. I think I texted them. It was
[01:01:18] like I had a bit of an emergency. I'm
[01:01:19] going to be a half an hour late. And I
[01:01:21] drove around the entire perimeter, at
[01:01:23] least that western perimeter of that
[01:01:25] park looking for the telltale sign of
[01:01:28] the the horse carriage cuz I actually
[01:01:30] really did want to record their names
[01:01:32] and make a formal complaint. Not that it
[01:01:34] would have gone anywhere, but or write a
[01:01:36] piece about it. I don't know. But it
[01:01:37] would have made me happier. I didn't
[01:01:38] find them. I looked for them. So,
[01:01:40] everyone, I should say for the fifth
[01:01:42] time in our tiny little very cohesive
[01:01:44] neighborhood where we spent most of our
[01:01:46] lives, um, and know every single person,
[01:01:49] almost everybody disapproved of this
[01:01:51] kind of behavior from you cuz it was
[01:01:53] disruptive and like it wasn't you
[01:01:55] weren't getting in line with everybody.
[01:01:57] I never, of course, felt that way cuz we
[01:01:59] grew up together with the same
[01:02:00] attitudes. But now I think that if like
[01:02:04] eight more people in our neighborhood
[01:02:06] and 800,000 more people in our country
[01:02:08] had taken that attitude, we'd be in much
[01:02:10] better shape than we are now.
[01:02:12] >> Amen. Amen. I three more people would
[01:02:15] have been able to dominate that town
[01:02:17] with that dominate that neighborhood.
[01:02:19] right because people are look I'm not
[01:02:23] some great student of human behavior but
[01:02:25] I do observe it and I think that people
[01:02:28] again as we talked about earlier I think
[01:02:30] people who are cowardly hate themselves
[01:02:33] for it
[01:02:34] >> yes
[01:02:34] >> and are hostile towards those who
[01:02:36] express themselves or embrace their
[01:02:38] freedom
[01:02:40] >> in America land of the free home of the
[01:02:42] brave like I mean not anymore clearly
[01:02:46] and but I think there people are waiting
[01:02:48] to to be galvanized by someone who's
[01:02:51] willing to say, not saying I'm that
[01:02:53] person, but they need someone to rally
[01:02:56] around, someone Trump was obviously that
[01:02:59] guy. That's obviously part of Trump's
[01:03:01] appeal that he was that,
[01:03:03] >> you know, hey, [ __ ] you. This is what I
[01:03:05] believe and I'm not going to back down
[01:03:06] kind of guy. And I think our country
[01:03:08] used to be full of people like that.
[01:03:10] >> Yes, it did.
[01:03:11] >> And and they were they were real heroes
[01:03:14] in this country.
[01:03:16] uh this country didn't have an easy an
[01:03:18] easy time of it for the first couple
[01:03:21] hundred years. And the only people who
[01:03:23] exercised real power and authority were
[01:03:26] men who were courageous and willing to
[01:03:30] speak their mind and willing to follow
[01:03:32] through also and kind to other people
[01:03:34] and but whatever leadership qualities
[01:03:36] that you just don't see in America that
[01:03:38] often. I don't I mean
[01:03:40] >> I couldn't agree more and one of the
[01:03:42] hallmarks of that kind of society is
[01:03:44] decency. Yeah.
[01:03:45] >> One of the things you notice about brave
[01:03:47] men, our father being the bravest person
[01:03:49] I think either of us ever met, he was
[01:03:50] totally
[01:03:50] >> 84 years old, never saw him one time
[01:03:53] express fear in any situation.
[01:03:55] >> Any situation
[01:03:56] >> physically, intellectually, nothing.
[01:03:57] >> I saw if you were, you know, he could
[01:03:59] have and he did, including when he died
[01:04:01] totally unafraid, totally uncomplaining,
[01:04:03] totally unmedicated,
[01:04:04] >> totally unddeinished.
[01:04:06] >> Totally unddeinished. Both of us were
[01:04:07] there.
[01:04:08] >> Yeah.
[01:04:08] >> So, yes. No, I agree with that. But that
[01:04:11] was the twin to that was the flip side
[01:04:13] of his decency and kindness. He didn't
[01:04:16] hate himself.
[01:04:17] >> He had no reason to. And if he made a
[01:04:19] mistake or did something wrong, which he
[01:04:22] did, he'd be like, "Wow, I did something
[01:04:24] wrong. I'm really sorry."
[01:04:24] >> And he was genu genuinely inquisitive
[01:04:29] >> with other people and kind
[01:04:31] >> and interestedful and interested. Oh,
[01:04:34] his favorite thing was talking to I mean
[01:04:36] he loved to talk and he told the best
[01:04:38] stories around but he loved people and
[01:04:42] oh he get back from dinner parties when
[01:04:43] we were kids. I'll never for you always
[01:04:44] was always a woman of course cuz you as
[01:04:46] a man you sit next to a woman at a
[01:04:47] dinner party.
[01:04:48] >> Thank god
[01:04:48] >> I met the most amazing woman. She grew
[01:04:50] up in some weird country and did this
[01:04:52] and her dad was in the OSS and you know
[01:04:54] it was all
[01:04:55] >> that was a theme. It was always some
[01:04:57] intrigue always. Always. But um but he
[01:05:00] was so interested in other people like
[01:05:01] and so passionate about it like Their
[01:05:03] stories were like as exciting to him as
[01:05:05] his story.
[01:05:06] >> Yes. And he paid attention to the
[01:05:08] details.
[01:05:08] >> Very close attention. Very He was an
[01:05:10] amazing listener
[01:05:12] >> because he was really interested.
[01:05:13] Anyway, I think his decency, his love of
[01:05:16] children, animals, his family, his wife,
[01:05:20] people he sat next to dinner parties.
[01:05:22] Like that was all related to his total
[01:05:24] fearlessness.
[01:05:25] >> Yes.
[01:05:26] >> In a way.
[01:05:27] >> Yes.
[01:05:27] >> Do you know I can't quite articulate it,
[01:05:29] but I know
[01:05:30] >> I think you did, but he No. No. But he
[01:05:32] was so self-confident because he used
[01:05:36] all the talents that God gave gave him
[01:05:38] to the extent that he was able. I mean,
[01:05:41] he never passed up an opportunity ever
[01:05:44] anywhere to do anything interesting or
[01:05:47] adventurous.
[01:05:47] >> That is literally true.
[01:05:48] >> And that was like his law and it's so
[01:05:52] attractive and it's
[01:05:54] >> that was his law. That was his law. Have
[01:05:56] an interesting life. That's like the
[01:05:58] only instruction I got.
[01:05:59] >> Me too. Yeah. And he constantly encou I
[01:06:02] mean I remember when you got thrown out
[01:06:03] of boarding school and the only family
[01:06:06] drama I ever reme remember was would pop
[01:06:11] be able to force you to join the French
[01:06:13] Foreign Legion and he was dead set on
[01:06:16] forcing you to do that in case you don't
[01:06:18] remember.
[01:06:19] >> I do remember and I don't remember being
[01:06:21] resistant to it.
[01:06:22] >> It wasn't you?
[01:06:22] >> No, I'm aware. Someone else who was very
[01:06:25] resistant to it. You can't do that to
[01:06:27] him.
[01:06:30] Man,
[01:06:31] >> you weren't against it, but like you
[01:06:33] were 17 when you got tossed. How old
[01:06:34] were you? 17, maybe?
[01:06:36] >> I was 17. Yep.
[01:06:38] >> And he checked at the head office in
[01:06:41] Marseilles. I'll never forget this. And
[01:06:43] 17 was old enough to join the French
[01:06:45] Legion. And I'll never forget coming
[01:06:47] home for Christmas or Easter or some
[01:06:49] vacation where we were all home in
[01:06:51] Georgetown. And he was like, "Well, your
[01:06:52] brother could have joined the French
[01:06:53] Foreign Legion." And I was like, "Is
[01:06:55] this is this real?" And you were like,
[01:06:58] "Yep." He [ __ ] up at school. He got
[01:06:59] thrown out of boarding school. He's
[01:07:00] going to the French Fore foreign Legion.
[01:07:02] And it's a six-year commitment, but by
[01:07:03] the time he gets, he'll only be 23. And
[01:07:06] imagine he'll be able to say to all his
[01:07:07] friends, "I spent six years in the
[01:07:08] French Fore foreign Legion. I've got a
[01:07:09] fake name and a new passport. And I
[01:07:11] served in Djibouti. I was in these
[01:07:14] wars." And isn't that great? And I was
[01:07:17] like, "Yeah, that sounds great." And
[01:07:18] you're like, "Yeah, I'm totally
[01:07:20] thank God for female wisdom and
[01:07:23] strength." Actually, I think I think it
[01:07:25] would have been great. I probably
[01:07:26] wouldn't have survived it, but no. Thank
[01:07:28] God for mom.
[01:07:29] >> He was so allin. I'll never forget.
[01:07:31] >> So all in
[01:07:33] >> he knew people who who had done it.
[01:07:35] >> Oh yes.
[01:07:37] >> Speaking of without even getting into
[01:07:38] it, but
[01:07:41] >> I think both of us have taken an awful
[01:07:43] lot of [ __ ] about whatever he did for a
[01:07:45] living and it's not even totally clear,
[01:07:47] but um let me just ask a general
[01:07:49] question. Not about him, but about sort
[01:07:52] of the world that you grew up in.
[01:07:55] You were what, like
[01:07:57] 14 when we moved to Georgetown, maybe is
[01:08:00] >> 13.
[01:08:01] >> 13. So you spent your entire life in
[01:08:03] Northwest DC, like you never left except
[01:08:06] to go to Maine, obviously, but but like
[01:08:08] full-time, right? You're living there
[01:08:10] and um in a world that I mean, you
[01:08:13] literally lived in a house that our
[01:08:14] father purchased from a CI officer in
[01:08:16] cash.
[01:08:17] >> Yes.
[01:08:18] >> Right. And everybody in our world was
[01:08:20] involved in that kind of stuff. And and
[01:08:23] then you have had jobs where you rubbed
[01:08:25] up against people in the intel world.
[01:08:27] Yes.
[01:08:28] >> A lot of jobs though
[01:08:30] >> common probably in DC.
[01:08:31] >> But yeah,
[01:08:32] >> that's the point actually that I'm
[01:08:34] making.
[01:08:34] >> Yeah. Everybody
[01:08:35] >> I wouldn't be bringing this up if I
[01:08:36] thought you were Well, by this point in
[01:08:38] the conversation, I think everyone knows
[01:08:39] you're not working for the CIA.
[01:08:41] >> You're not compliant enough.
[01:08:43] >> Have you seen my tax returns?
[01:08:44] >> Yeah.
[01:08:45] >> No, but who has? Who has? Right.
[01:08:47] Exactly.
[01:08:49] But um I guess my question is did you
[01:08:51] know
[01:08:53] until relatively recently what a huge
[01:08:56] role intel agencies foreign and domestic
[01:08:59] played in the life of our country? Not
[01:09:01] just the political life but the civic
[01:09:02] life, the cultural life. Did you know
[01:09:04] that?
[01:09:04] >> No. And it and it reminds me what you
[01:09:07] said a little earlier in this
[01:09:08] conversation about not being aware of
[01:09:10] what's going on around you because
[01:09:11] you're steeped in it. Of course. And I
[01:09:13] worked for some I worked for a corporate
[01:09:15] intelligence firm that was founded by
[01:09:17] all former spooks
[01:09:19] >> and who I knew personally.
[01:09:21] >> Yes.
[01:09:21] >> Good guys.
[01:09:22] >> Great guys.
[01:09:23] >> Excellent shots, too. We hunted with
[01:09:25] them.
[01:09:25] >> Holy smokes were they. Yeah. And also
[01:09:27] one of them died like the best death
[01:09:28] ever.
[01:09:29] >> Had grandchildren. His children were
[01:09:31] married. Walked out of his on K Street.
[01:09:33] Walked out of his accountant's office
[01:09:36] having received good news and had a
[01:09:39] massive heart like life-ending heart
[01:09:41] attack right there on K Street. in the
[01:09:43] prime rib.
[01:09:43] >> Yeah. At like 76.
[01:09:45] >> Yeah.
[01:09:45] >> I mean,
[01:09:46] >> he was a great man.
[01:09:47] >> He was a great man.
[01:09:48] >> But Intel guy.
[01:09:49] >> Great. Intel guy. Sorry. I think it's
[01:09:51] also important to mention I my attitude
[01:09:54] has changed like so many because of co
[01:09:56] but even a little bit before that. I
[01:09:58] just had taken it on faith that we had a
[01:10:02] good government that was well-meaning,
[01:10:03] that makes mistakes, but that was
[01:10:05] answerable to the people. I actually
[01:10:07] always thought that growing up. I
[01:10:10] generally didn't think what I heard from
[01:10:11] the government was a lie. I didn't think
[01:10:13] it was a manipulative lie. Um I remember
[01:10:17] I mean the the most important thing that
[01:10:19] went on in our lives as we were growing
[01:10:22] up the most important enduring conflict
[01:10:24] was the Iron Curtain and communism. And
[01:10:28] I remember talking with you and others
[01:10:30] all the time about those poor people who
[01:10:32] live in the Soviet Union who have no
[01:10:34] access to real news. They have tasks and
[01:10:37] they have in Zvestia what was the other
[01:10:41] Pravda
[01:10:42] >> and they don't have the freedom to go to
[01:10:44] church and they obviously their economy
[01:10:47] sucks because it's managed by a
[01:10:49] government and that never works but
[01:10:51] really they didn't have access to
[01:10:54] accurate information
[01:10:55] >> right they had no access to any real
[01:10:59] news and further they had been taught a
[01:11:03] as a society terrible things about
[01:11:05] America
[01:11:07] and Americans
[01:11:09] and specifically we used to also talk
[01:11:11] after the Iron Curtain came down had the
[01:11:13] same attitude about North Korea like
[01:11:15] here are these poor emaciated captives
[01:11:18] who can't leave their own country who
[01:11:20] don't who think these terrible and
[01:11:22] untrue things about Americans. And it
[01:11:25] was only a couple years ago that I
[01:11:27] suddenly realized I had this epiphany.
[01:11:29] We're [ __ ] North Korea. We are North
[01:11:32] Koreans.
[01:11:34] And so much of what the government has
[01:11:36] told us throughout our lives about big
[01:11:38] events and small events are simply not
[01:11:41] true. Not just massaged, but like 180
[01:11:44] degrees from truth and reality.
[01:11:48] Once you have that realization, it's
[01:11:50] very unsettling and dispiriting,
[01:11:53] I think, and scary. Um, and obviously
[01:11:56] the election of 2020 brought it into
[01:11:58] focus. all of the suppression of Twitter
[01:12:01] and the New York Post piece from Miranda
[01:12:04] Divine on Hunter Biden and that's and
[01:12:07] all the false news about masks and the
[01:12:11] vax and everything else. I mean, the the
[01:12:14] list is endless and
[01:12:16] could go on and on, but no, to answer
[01:12:18] your question, I was not aware of it. I
[01:12:20] didn't pay attention to it. I didn't
[01:12:21] suspect it and I really had no reason to
[01:12:24] suspect it actually cuz life was
[01:12:27] different even a decade ago.
[01:12:29] in America and certainly in Washington.
[01:12:33] And now they've just it seems a certain
[01:12:35] air of desperation or something that
[01:12:37] they're they're clamping down to such an
[01:12:40] aggressive degree even with Trump in the
[01:12:42] White House, which I wish someone would
[01:12:43] explain to me. I have my theories. But
[01:12:46] anyway, um, and the fact that they used
[01:12:49] to be good liars, this is the thing I
[01:12:51] find the scariest is they used to tell,
[01:12:54] compelling, thought out,
[01:12:57] well-fashioned, plausible lies. And they
[01:13:01] no longer do that. Now it's just, hey,
[01:13:04] this is it. And you either accept it or
[01:13:07] shut the [ __ ] up and we'll put you in
[01:13:08] prison or we'll take all your liberties
[01:13:10] away. And I do think it's akin to
[01:13:13] finding, you know, the great debate. Are
[01:13:15] you going to look under the bed and or
[01:13:17] are you going to jump across the room
[01:13:19] and leave the door? It's like once you
[01:13:21] look under the bed, you might actually
[01:13:23] find the monster. And now it's clear
[01:13:27] that our government is the monster and
[01:13:29] the intelligence agencies are the
[01:13:30] monster. And once you've seen it, you
[01:13:32] can't really not unsee it.
[01:13:34] >> Yes.
[01:13:35] >> And that's really unsettling.
[01:13:37] >> So nicely put. Um that's so nicely put.
[01:13:41] Yeah, that has been I try not to talk
[01:13:44] about it too much because it's obviously
[01:13:45] way too personal, but that but the
[01:13:48] realization about the intel agencies has
[01:13:50] been one of the really big things for
[01:13:52] me. I just I can hardly even believe it.
[01:13:54] I can hardly believe I know that sounds
[01:13:56] stupid but
[01:13:57] >> it doesn't
[01:13:57] >> but it grows out of a totally different
[01:13:59] understanding of the US government.
[01:14:01] >> Yes. And I always thought it was
[01:14:03] inefficient. And the problem with US
[01:14:04] government was there, you know, were a
[01:14:07] lot of lazy people with guaranteed jobs
[01:14:08] and like big bureaucracies don't
[01:14:10] function very well. They're just they
[01:14:12] just don't work.
[01:14:13] >> But the spirit that animates them, which
[01:14:16] is a spirit to protect and improve the
[01:14:18] country
[01:14:19] >> is kind of unquestioned. They're not
[01:14:20] trying to subvert the country.
[01:14:22] >> That's what I would think.
[01:14:23] >> Or maybe at at worst they don't care,
[01:14:25] >> right?
[01:14:25] >> And occasionally you have a Soviet or
[01:14:27] Cuban spy, but that's like really far
[01:14:29] out. You know what I mean? or some drunk
[01:14:32] FBI agent with having an affair who
[01:14:34] sells secrets cuz he needs the money.
[01:14:35] But like
[01:14:36] >> human flaws,
[01:14:37] >> human flaw. Thank you. Human flaws. But
[01:14:40] never that this whole that there'd be
[01:14:42] huge parts of this whole enterprise that
[01:14:44] are working to destroy the society like
[01:14:46] never even occurred to me.
[01:14:48] >> No. No. Me either. And but it's clear
[01:14:50] that that's what's going on.
[01:14:51] >> It's clear.
[01:14:52] >> Yeah.
[01:14:52] >> It couldn't be clearer.
[01:14:54] >> And it's accelerating. It's not
[01:14:56] decelerating.
[01:14:57] >> No.
[01:14:57] >> No.
[01:14:59] So, um, yeah,
[01:15:01] >> and it's demonic. It is. And I I
[01:15:03] actually don't even understand why that
[01:15:05] obvious observation, that obvious
[01:15:07] conclusion makes people I guess it's a
[01:15:10] religious question. I don't know why it
[01:15:11] makes people not just uncomfortable, it
[01:15:15] makes people super hostile if you
[01:15:18] mention that certain motivations are
[01:15:21] demonic and that there are demons among
[01:15:23] us. I think that's I've always known
[01:15:25] that. I've just known that
[01:15:28] it's just obvious. I've known it my
[01:15:30] whole life. It is obvious.
[01:15:31] >> You don't have to be around. It's like
[01:15:33] >> being always, as our father always said,
[01:15:35] trust your dog sense every And you talk
[01:15:38] about it. Everybody has it. All you have
[01:15:39] to do is pay attention to it.
[01:15:41] >> It's It doesn't even need to be that
[01:15:43] finely calibrated. I mean, if you have
[01:15:47] >> a weird feeling about a situation or
[01:15:49] about a person,
[01:15:51] you know, you're probably right.
[01:15:53] >> Yes. Trust it.
[01:15:54] >> Yeah. trust it.
[01:15:55] >> It's not random.
[01:15:56] >> No, not at all. And every human has also
[01:16:00] had weird out ofthe- blue impulses to do
[01:16:03] things that go against their nature. And
[01:16:06] all the time, this happens to me. Thank
[01:16:08] God. It happens to me a lot, especially
[01:16:11] when I'm out in nature with my dogs.
[01:16:15] It's where I can clear my head. It's
[01:16:17] where I can
[01:16:19] relax and think.
[01:16:20] >> Yes.
[01:16:20] >> Away from my phone. I get all sorts of
[01:16:23] unbidden,
[01:16:25] unsolicited
[01:16:27] thoughts, impulses that I follow, good
[01:16:30] things. Call this person, write this, do
[01:16:33] this.
[01:16:33] >> Totally agree.
[01:16:34] >> And if I didn't have that in my life, I
[01:16:37] would be a mess. I would be more of a me
[01:16:40] whatever. I'd be it would
[01:16:43] >> So it's not just So I think
[01:16:45] >> it's not just demonic. It's not just
[01:16:46] dark stuff.
[01:16:48] God acts on us.
[01:16:49] >> Yes. Very much so. So I boy have I had
[01:16:52] the same experience I guess my whole
[01:16:54] life but I didn't recognize it for what
[01:16:57] it was until pretty recently.
[01:17:00] >> Yeah.
[01:17:00] >> And I certainly would never you know as
[01:17:02] a wasp I would never mention it
[01:17:06] >> cuz you're not like that's one thing
[01:17:08] you're not not supposed to talk about
[01:17:10] your spiritual views period. In fact, in
[01:17:13] fact, it's such a rarity. I remember
[01:17:15] exactly where I was when I first had
[01:17:18] this conversation and it was with you
[01:17:20] and it was in the state of Maine, which
[01:17:23] is obviously wonderful, but also
[01:17:26] something about the state of Maine is
[01:17:28] >> very close to whatever's going on around
[01:17:31] us that we can't see. It's happening in
[01:17:33] Maine a lot more than anywhere else.
[01:17:34] >> The membrane is thinner in Maine between
[01:17:36] this world and the next. There's no
[01:17:37] question about that. It's not it's not
[01:17:39] it's not a light state. No, it's it's a
[01:17:42] heavy state.
[01:17:44] >> You know what I mean?
[01:17:45] >> There's a reason Stephen King when he at
[01:17:47] one point had talent and one point had a
[01:17:50] god-given talent because you can't read
[01:17:52] his early stuff. You can't read the
[01:17:54] stand without
[01:17:55] >> saying this guy is using god-given
[01:17:58] talent. There's a reason why all those
[01:17:59] books actually take place in Maine. And
[01:18:01] it's not just because he's from Maine.
[01:18:03] It's because something going on in
[01:18:05] Maine.
[01:18:05] >> I And that's been I think recognized for
[01:18:08] a long time.
[01:18:09] >> Yeah. And um and it it exceeds my
[01:18:11] understanding. I can't even guess. I do
[01:18:13] know that the first transatlantic
[01:18:16] television signal was broadcast from
[01:18:17] Maine.
[01:18:18] >> Oh yes.
[01:18:18] >> In you know in a town very close
[01:18:20] >> is still there.
[01:18:21] >> Dish is still there. I hunted next to it
[01:18:23] last over it.
[01:18:24] >> Yeah.
[01:18:25] >> But but the point is it's like there's
[01:18:27] something about its geographic location,
[01:18:29] its geography as well that I don't know.
[01:18:31] There's something about it.
[01:18:32] >> Yes. But yeah, we grew up in a world and
[01:18:35] in a culture that did not welcome
[01:18:37] conversations about spiritual matters.
[01:18:40] The transcendent.
[01:18:41] >> No.
[01:18:42] >> Yeah.
[01:18:43] >> No,
[01:18:43] >> that was a huge weakness.
[01:18:44] >> Didn't talk about death.
[01:18:46] >> No.
[01:18:46] >> Didn't talk about illness.
[01:18:48] There were no support groups for
[01:18:50] illness.
[01:18:51] >> I remember in the 80s there was this
[01:18:52] black cuz Georgetown had been black or
[01:18:54] partly black like a hundred years ago or
[01:18:57] something. And so there were there was a
[01:18:58] black church on our street. Do you
[01:19:00] remember that?
[01:19:01] >> Well, yes. like four blocks down on N
[01:19:03] Street in Georgetown. And of course, I
[01:19:05] didn't even know it was there, but our
[01:19:06] father knew it was there.
[01:19:07] >> It's actually the end of Dumbartton.
[01:19:08] >> It was the end of Dumbartton. Sorry, one
[01:19:10] block up. And um he was like, he just
[01:19:13] love black church. Do you remember
[01:19:15] getting dragged to black church with it?
[01:19:17] >> I loved it actually. I was never
[01:19:18] resistant to it. You'll never find nicer
[01:19:20] people with better music, great food,
[01:19:24] and a super welcoming attitude. Couldn't
[01:19:26] agree more. as I think church is
[01:19:27] supposed to be. It's such a departure
[01:19:29] from the
[01:19:31] I won't mention the name of the church
[01:19:33] cuz I know family members of ours still
[01:19:34] go there, but I was baptized there and
[01:19:36] it was just too
[01:19:37] >> right.
[01:19:38] >> It was beautiful architecturally
[01:19:40] and that's about what it had to
[01:19:42] recommend it.
[01:19:43] >> Yeah.
[01:19:44] >> The pews had a nice patina from, you
[01:19:46] know, hundreds of years ago
[01:19:47] >> for the frozen chosen. Yeah. No, there's
[01:19:49] no question. But he would drag us to the
[01:19:50] black church at least once or twice a
[01:19:51] year. Let's let's go to Easter at the
[01:19:53] black church. They were always a little
[01:19:55] confused by what we were doing there.
[01:19:56] But he was so into it.
[01:19:58] >> They were on board though.
[01:19:58] >> They were on No, they were totally on
[01:20:00] board. No, to give them credit, they
[01:20:01] were they couldn't have been nicer and
[01:20:02] they were like old-fashioned Washington
[01:20:04] black people. Like the definition of
[01:20:07] like respectable middle class people and
[01:20:10] um but he liked it because they were
[01:20:12] just like allin like they weren't
[01:20:14] beating around the bush like they're for
[01:20:15] they're for Jesus.
[01:20:16] >> Yes.
[01:20:17] >> And I think that's just unabashed.
[01:20:19] >> Yeah. And I think those were the that
[01:20:20] was the only contact I ever had in my
[01:20:22] young life with Jesus at all.
[01:20:24] >> Were people talking about Jesus?
[01:20:26] >> Yes. Do you do you feel that?
[01:20:28] >> 100%. No. No. No. I mean, I've had I've
[01:20:32] had a lot of reasons to have an
[01:20:33] awakening in my life. It was forced upon
[01:20:35] me. In so many ways, God has come into
[01:20:39] my life and changed things that needed
[01:20:41] to be changed.
[01:20:42] >> Yes. excised certain patterns and
[01:20:45] behaviors that needed to be that I never
[01:20:47] could have done on my own ever.
[01:20:49] >> And yeah, I know we both I mean I
[01:20:53] >> So yes, no, I didn't think about it
[01:20:55] enough. I always had a reflexive faith.
[01:20:58] I always knew God existed. I never
[01:21:00] question but I didn't know a lot about I
[01:21:02] still don't necessarily know a lot about
[01:21:04] the history of religion or the
[01:21:06] intricacies of certain scripture. But I
[01:21:09] read the Bible. I commune with other
[01:21:10] people. I celebrate God. I celebrate
[01:21:14] fellowship
[01:21:16] and I celebrate Jesus unabashedly. I
[01:21:19] mean
[01:21:22] >> Yeah. Other Yeah.
[01:21:23] >> So how um I would say the other thing
[01:21:26] feature of the world that we grew up in
[01:21:29] was you know alcohol is part of it.
[01:21:31] >> Yes.
[01:21:32] >> Was cocktail culture.
[01:21:33] >> Absolutely.
[01:21:33] >> My favorite food growing up was tonic
[01:21:35] water and cam bear. We had so many
[01:21:38] cocktail parties at our house. That's
[01:21:40] tonic water and cam and bear.
[01:21:42] >> True. That's where that might remember.
[01:21:44] Well,
[01:21:45] >> tonic water. That's when you know your
[01:21:46] parents were throwing a few too many
[01:21:48] cocktail parties. Not many six-year-olds
[01:21:50] drink tonic water. I wonder if any
[01:21:52] six-year-olds drink tonic water.
[01:21:53] >> I don't think people even drink genonics
[01:21:55] anymore, but they did in our house
[01:21:57] growing up. Anyway,
[01:21:57] >> boy, we come from a long line of genics
[01:22:00] >> of genonic drinkers. But
[01:22:02] >> yeah,
[01:22:03] >> uh so we both got caught up in it. And I
[01:22:06] would say you a little more
[01:22:07] enthusiastically than me.
[01:22:10] You were like,
[01:22:12] um, you were epic, I think, is the term
[01:22:14] people use now. But, uh, and then, you
[01:22:16] know, you know, as anyone who drinks
[01:22:19] overly enthusiastically, the people who
[01:22:21] love him start to worry. And then you
[01:22:23] just like quit. Didn't go to rehab.
[01:22:25] >> No. I admire people who do. I think it's
[01:22:28] helpful. I had
[01:22:29] >> I'm not criticizing it.
[01:22:30] >> No, no, no. I didn't think you were. I
[01:22:31] just actually I've had heard some
[01:22:33] fascinating stories at those AA
[01:22:36] meetings. It's been years since I've
[01:22:37] been to one, but I did have some
[01:22:39] concerned friends who'd gone through
[01:22:42] this journey themselves and who pulled
[01:22:45] me in and I was receptive to listening.
[01:22:48] Um, not necessarily receptive to
[01:22:50] stopping, but receptive to learning
[01:22:52] more. And um, and I was flirting with
[01:22:56] it. flirting with stopping because
[01:23:00] you take those tests that they have and
[01:23:02] like answer 10 of these questions and if
[01:23:04] you answer even three of them then
[01:23:06] you've got a drinking problem and it was
[01:23:07] always like I've answered yes on all 10
[01:23:10] and I could probably give you six more
[01:23:12] questions to ask. Um so and I'd been I'd
[01:23:17] had a few runins with the with
[01:23:18] authorities quite a few actually. It had
[01:23:22] affected my life. Anybody ask you oh do
[01:23:24] you think alcohol is affecting your
[01:23:25] life? Oh gosh, I don't know. Let me
[01:23:28] contemplate that.
[01:23:28] >> Oh,
[01:23:29] >> so and I'd also reach but principally
[01:23:32] what happened was my son was born
[01:23:34] >> and that was a tough pregnancy, an early
[01:23:38] birth and um the moment I saw that child
[01:23:43] be born, I'd had a lot of preparation
[01:23:46] from you cuz you'd already had a couple
[01:23:48] of children and from others. But I and
[01:23:50] it was an aspiration for me for the
[01:23:52] entirety of my life to be a father. But
[01:23:55] the moment I saw that child be born and
[01:23:58] they're purple and unattractive, my son
[01:24:01] urinated all over the doctors, it was
[01:24:03] great. Still very proud of him. But I
[01:24:06] remember unbidden. Speaking of unbidden
[01:24:08] thoughts and emotions, the first thing
[01:24:10] that I thought when that child was born
[01:24:12] was I'd [ __ ] kill for this child.
[01:24:16] >> Yes.
[01:24:16] >> And I would do it with relish.
[01:24:20] like if someone ever someone ever
[01:24:23] threatened this child, I would I mean
[01:24:25] there's nothing I wouldn't do. So, um
[01:24:29] anyway, so he was born and he was young
[01:24:33] as a baby. My son has never seen me
[01:24:35] intoxicated. I'm happy to say he's 24. I
[01:24:38] had my last cocktail 23 years ago in
[01:24:42] March coming up.
[01:24:43] >> Incredible. and talked about it and
[01:24:47] thought about it and had concerned
[01:24:50] people discuss it with me. um and had
[01:24:54] dialed back, but then had really an
[01:24:57] amazing an epic weekend with my son's
[01:25:00] godfather, a great friend of both of
[01:25:01] ours who came in from New Orleans the
[01:25:05] and had like 3-day Baknalia and in
[01:25:08] Georgetown and got like physically ill
[01:25:10] and so did my wife and she had a fullon
[01:25:14] divine intervention where God like spoke
[01:25:17] to her out loud and said enough
[01:25:21] And and
[01:25:24] she that was it. Removed it from her
[01:25:26] completely.
[01:25:27] >> Incredible.
[01:25:28] >> Completely. And then I was sympathetic
[01:25:30] on board with it cuz not only was I
[01:25:32] trying to convince myself that I should
[01:25:34] lay off it for a while, I was trying to
[01:25:36] convince her. And like most, she was
[01:25:38] resistant. And um so that day I made the
[01:25:42] commitment, you know, I'm going to join
[01:25:44] her. But then one of my great friends
[01:25:45] was having a bachelor party like in two
[01:25:47] days. So, I say, "Okay, well, let's just
[01:25:49] get through this weekend." And then I'm
[01:25:51] committed.
[01:25:51] >> I've been there.
[01:25:53] >> And I did. I had my last cocktail of the
[01:25:56] engagement party
[01:25:58] >> of a great guy. I'm spacing his name out
[01:26:00] thinking of a second. H you know him.
[01:26:02] He's a wonderful guy. His marriage
[01:26:04] didn't last, but he's around. Um, and he
[01:26:06] had a great party and I had a couple
[01:26:08] cocktails. Didn't get hammered. And then
[01:26:10] I said, "That's it. Not doing it again."
[01:26:12] And but it was divine intervention for
[01:26:14] me too because he removed not only the
[01:26:17] desire to drink but he implanted like a
[01:26:21] revulsion for alcohol.
[01:26:23] >> Yes, I feel that
[01:26:24] >> a physical revulsion where I could to
[01:26:26] this day 22 and 1/2 years later summon
[01:26:28] the taste of a great goose martini or
[01:26:30] summon the taste of like a 3-in glass of
[01:26:33] Makaker Mark and I could make myself
[01:26:36] vomit in like 15 seconds. Um, and also
[01:26:40] for that first year, no one ever talks
[01:26:42] about this, at least I've never heard
[01:26:44] anybody talk about this, that for that
[01:26:46] first year, I couldn't sleep, sweating
[01:26:48] constantly, had horrible nightmares
[01:26:51] every night. Yeah.
[01:26:52] >> And the enduring nightmare that I still
[01:26:54] have occasionally, I would say once a
[01:26:56] month, I'll be somewhere socially in my
[01:26:58] dream and I'll be talking to someone and
[01:27:00] I'll just reach and have a cocktail
[01:27:02] and I'll as soon as it hits my mouth,
[01:27:05] like start sobbing in my dream and wake
[01:27:09] up really agitated and really upset with
[01:27:12] myself. Um, but anyway, I God removed
[01:27:17] the desire completely for me and and
[01:27:20] I've had a much better life since. And
[01:27:22] I've never run, interestingly, I've
[01:27:24] never run I could give you hours of
[01:27:26] stories about stupid and dangerous and
[01:27:29] destructive things I did as a drunk
[01:27:32] person, but I never have hooked up with
[01:27:36] an old friend that I haven't seen in
[01:27:37] like two decades have a meal and they
[01:27:39] like order a drink and oh, do you want a
[01:27:41] drink? will say, "No, actually, I quit
[01:27:43] drinking." I've never had someone say,
[01:27:46] "What the [ __ ] did you do that for?"
[01:27:48] Like,
[01:27:49] >> like, "Really? You quit drinking? Like,
[01:27:50] you loser? You quitter?" No. No one's
[01:27:53] ever had that that emotion.
[01:27:54] >> You're the only person I know who's
[01:27:56] crashed an airplane, a speedboat, a
[01:27:59] motorcycle, and multiple cars. And
[01:28:01] that's literally true. That's just a
[01:28:02] fact. And you're here. I think we differ
[01:28:04] on the the definition of crashing. I did
[01:28:08] not crash the plane. It was uh
[01:28:11] >> a force landing they call it.
[01:28:13] >> Okay. Okay. Well, forced landing.
[01:28:16] >> I bear some responsibility for sure,
[01:28:19] >> but the plane survived completely
[01:28:21] unscathed.
[01:28:22] >> Well, okay. In a clearing in a national
[01:28:25] forest. I'm just saying. And by the way,
[01:28:26] I'm not blaming you for whatever
[01:28:27] mechanical error forced your plane. But
[01:28:29] again, we could just take the plane out
[01:28:30] of it and we still have the motorcycle,
[01:28:32] the boat, and the cars.
[01:28:35] >> Yes. Yes. I also once fell asleep while
[01:28:38] flying an airplane
[01:28:40] >> from drinking.
[01:28:41] >> Yeah. Passed out in in a in a really
[01:28:46] trafficked area and I was aware that I
[01:28:49] was, you know, when you're really really
[01:28:50] really tired, you can't hide it from
[01:28:53] yourself. You can slap yourself in the
[01:28:54] face. You can pinch yourself. I was a
[01:28:56] smoker at the time and I, you know, was
[01:28:57] chain smoking while flying.
[01:29:00] H and I was in a traffic pattern and I
[01:29:03] just couldn't keep my eyes open. could
[01:29:05] not in an international airport in
[01:29:08] someone else's airplane. Yeah. And I
[01:29:10] kept nodding off.
[01:29:12] >> Was anyone else in the plane?
[01:29:13] >> No, I was by myself. It was really
[01:29:16] terrifying. I wrote a piece about it
[01:29:17] actually for a friend of mine who also
[01:29:20] subsequently quit drinking and started
[01:29:22] like a web scene when those things were
[01:29:24] around
[01:29:25] >> and um yeah, it was pretty hilarious.
[01:29:28] >> Fell asleep while flying an airplane.
[01:29:30] What?
[01:29:30] >> Multiple times. Multiple times. I I was
[01:29:33] going on a a local trip and I took off.
[01:29:37] I was tired. I was sleepd deprived. I
[01:29:39] had a friend, you know those friends who
[01:29:41] come and visit you and
[01:29:42] >> Oh, yes.
[01:29:42] >> and they never leave and they're great
[01:29:45] company.
[01:29:46] >> Amazing. Especially after like 5:00 p.m.
[01:29:48] >> Yeah. Yeah. And well, he stayed for like
[01:29:50] 2 weeks. And so we developed this this
[01:29:55] great um strategy where we'd go out we'd
[01:29:58] like drink all day on the beach and then
[01:30:00] go out to wildly hedonistic meal and
[01:30:02] then we'd get back to my apartment at
[01:30:04] like 2:00 in the morning and then he
[01:30:05] would stay up smoking and reading so he
[01:30:07] could make sure that I got up at 4:30 to
[01:30:10] go make it to the flight line. I was in
[01:30:12] flight school at the time and so I did
[01:30:15] that for 2 weeks. He subsequently got
[01:30:17] food po uh alcohol poisoning. I think I
[01:30:19] did too. But uh I was just exhausted and
[01:30:23] but I love flying and it was actually
[01:30:25] the only academic experience I've ever
[01:30:27] had that I was
[01:30:29] really passionate about. I love flying
[01:30:31] and I was in a great flight school. I
[01:30:34] took it seriously. Uh not too seriously,
[01:30:37] not seriously enough to quit drinking,
[01:30:38] but
[01:30:39] >> or to sleep.
[01:30:40] >> Or to sleep. But yeah, I showed up at
[01:30:42] dawn,
[01:30:43] flew, you know, ma places prone to
[01:30:46] massive fog banks everywhere. It's flat.
[01:30:48] It's actually in the state on the
[01:30:51] Atlantic Ocean. And it the flight school
[01:30:54] itself shares an international airport
[01:30:57] with uh like six carriers, big carriers.
[01:31:00] So, it's got like a 10,500 ft runway.
[01:31:03] It's got north and south and east and
[01:31:05] west. It's got a lot of traffic. And so,
[01:31:08] I was weary and feeling, you know, tired
[01:31:12] or exhausted. But it wasn't until I took
[01:31:14] off that I thought this is bad. Like,
[01:31:16] this is dangerous. It's like I really
[01:31:18] can't focus and I'm falling asleep. And
[01:31:21] so I went about 10 miles north and came
[01:31:24] back cuz I didn't want it to be super
[01:31:26] suspicious. Just take off. You have to
[01:31:27] basically declare an emergency to get
[01:31:28] back in the pattern in an international
[01:31:30] airport like that. So I went north for
[01:31:32] like 10 12 miles and then called
[01:31:36] approach and said I was coming back and
[01:31:38] have to identify why. And it was in the
[01:31:41] approach with like 737s flying around
[01:31:44] and other it was a very hightraic
[01:31:46] airport and I was on like a five mile
[01:31:49] downwind or crosswind trying to think
[01:31:53] whatever. I was on a long approach to
[01:31:55] this airport and communicating with the
[01:31:57] tower on the radio and I would fall
[01:31:59] asleep in between communication, you
[01:32:01] know. Cessna November 678 echo, are you
[01:32:04] there?
[01:32:07] November 678 echo here. Oh yeah, it was
[01:32:11] and I said a lot of prayers and as I
[01:32:13] said I smoked some cigarettes in that
[01:32:14] plane and I pinched myself and uh I
[01:32:18] landed safely. Excellent landing and got
[01:32:20] to the flight line and and turned the
[01:32:22] engine off and promptly took a nap in
[01:32:25] the plane for like an hour. It was bad.
[01:32:28] And then I got I hopped I had a
[01:32:29] motorcycle at that time too and I hopped
[01:32:31] on my motorcycle and I went home and I
[01:32:32] was like you got to go back to your real
[01:32:34] life man. It's like one of my oldest
[01:32:36] friends. Um, you got to leave.
[01:32:40] I can't can't sustain this.
[01:32:44] >> So then you wind up, you're a blackjack
[01:32:46] dealer on a river boat in Mississippi.
[01:32:48] You work for a couple different
[01:32:49] political candidates, a presidential
[01:32:51] campaign,
[01:32:53] and all nice guys. I don't, you know,
[01:32:55] can I say one thing? Like if you name
[01:32:57] I'm not going to name them, but you can
[01:32:59] if you want. But like people you thought
[01:33:00] were impressive 30 years ago in
[01:33:02] politics, they're also discredited now.
[01:33:04] I know it's sad.
[01:33:05] >> It is sad.
[01:33:06] >> I don't want to be mean.
[01:33:07] >> Not only discredited, but actually there
[01:33:09] was a much better stable of real
[01:33:12] candidates, real people. For one one
[01:33:15] example, I briefly was a communications
[01:33:18] director at the Maryland Republican
[01:33:20] Party for like 6 months.
[01:33:22] >> You were communications director for the
[01:33:24] Republican party. Imagine a Maryland
[01:33:25] Republican party. It's like a different
[01:33:27] country, right?
[01:33:27] >> There were like 16 Republicans even
[01:33:29] then. But they could still raise some
[01:33:30] money and they could make some noise cuz
[01:33:32] there were no other Republicans. And
[01:33:34] actually it was great for me cuz I was
[01:33:35] the communications director which really
[01:33:37] means I was writing nasty press releases
[01:33:38] and trying to generate lots of news and
[01:33:42] you know it's a fully corrupt state and
[01:33:45] so there's a lot to talk about
[01:33:47] >> and no one's looking over your shoulder
[01:33:49] because it's Maryland like really like
[01:33:52] >> right. No totally. So, I'd write the
[01:33:54] most incendiary stuff and occasionally
[01:33:57] generate some news on it, but I had
[01:33:59] license to do that. And it was actually
[01:34:01] a really good was a really good
[01:34:03] launchpad. It was a was a nice brief
[01:34:06] experience I had with some really good
[01:34:08] people. They did they didn't have, you
[01:34:10] know, big aspirations. I don't think I I
[01:34:12] don't think you could stay at the
[01:34:14] Maryland Republican party. It's kind of
[01:34:16] interesting. Quickly, I've I've I
[01:34:19] started then and I've written for now in
[01:34:21] 25 years. I love writing speeches and I
[01:34:24] write speeches for I've written speeches
[01:34:25] for political candidates and aspiring
[01:34:27] political candidates and and corporate
[01:34:29] heads. I love it. I think it's so fun
[01:34:32] and interesting and I'm sure no one will
[01:34:34] do it anymore with the AI, but I hope
[01:34:36] that's not true. But anyway,
[01:34:38] >> whatever. I could write good speeches.
[01:34:39] And one of the guys who actually was
[01:34:41] impressive in Maryland in the mid '9s
[01:34:45] was Michael Steele. Do you remember
[01:34:48] Michael Steel?
[01:34:48] >> I knew Mike Steele. Yeah. His sister
[01:34:51] married Mike Tyson.
[01:34:53] >> I did know that. I'd totally forgotten.
[01:34:56] >> He's such a chameleon. He's such an
[01:34:58] unimpressive person now. It's hard to
[01:35:00] believe that I once thought he was
[01:35:02] impressive. He was articulate. He was
[01:35:04] as, you know, I wasn't going to use
[01:35:06] Biden's
[01:35:07] >> Was he clean, too?
[01:35:08] >> Yeah, he was clean. Didn't smell bad.
[01:35:09] And he was articulate. I think that was
[01:35:11] Biden to quote Joe Biden. Yes.
[01:35:13] >> Yes. And he was he's impressive. He's a
[01:35:15] tall man and he's got a lot of a lot of
[01:35:17] energy and he's like and your face looks
[01:35:19] you in the eye.
[01:35:20] a good handshaker and he was going to be
[01:35:23] like the face of Republican success and
[01:35:25] he had a failed Senate campaign.
[01:35:27] Whatever. 10, 12 years go by and in a
[01:35:30] much different iteration in my life. I
[01:35:32] was uh writing still but like doing more
[01:35:37] interesting and more lucrative things
[01:35:39] than the Maryland Republican Party. And
[01:35:41] an old friend of mine named Lance Cobbsy
[01:35:43] who's no longer around. I don't know if
[01:35:45] you remember him. He's a great guy. It's
[01:35:48] been gone like 15 years. He called me
[01:35:51] and said, "Hey, I'm running Michael
[01:35:53] Steele's campaign for the RNC.
[01:35:56] Will you write some speeches for him?"
[01:35:58] And I was like, "Hell yeah, love to do
[01:36:00] that." I got paid to do it. And I also
[01:36:02] believed in Michael Steel. And I So I
[01:36:05] wrote Michael Steele's acceptance speech
[01:36:06] and when he became the RNC chair, not a
[01:36:10] huge deal, but like kind of fun.
[01:36:12] >> It was bigger then.
[01:36:13] >> It was bigger then. and and then he
[01:36:16] immediately like became reverted to type
[01:36:20] and by which I mean corrupt politician
[01:36:24] and immediately blew like $800,000 on,
[01:36:28] you know, redecorating his personal
[01:36:30] office.
[01:36:30] >> He demanded a private jet because he
[01:36:33] claimed that Obama was president. He
[01:36:35] claimed that he was Obama's counterpart
[01:36:38] on the Republican side and Obama had Air
[01:36:40] Force One and he needed to fly private.
[01:36:42] the the incredible nuts on that guy. I
[01:36:45] mean,
[01:36:45] >> he had balls.
[01:36:46] >> Yeah. But no interesting opinions and
[01:36:49] no, you know, principles, no foundation.
[01:36:53] >> And and then he figured out he figured
[01:36:54] out the white guilt lever.
[01:36:56] >> Yeah.
[01:36:56] >> And he's like, I don't get a plane. Is
[01:36:57] that cuz I'm black?
[01:36:59] >> Are you saying that I'm lesser?
[01:37:01] >> Shut up.
[01:37:02] >> In his defense, wasn't um Terry
[01:37:04] McAuliff, the DNC guy at the time?
[01:37:07] >> Probably.
[01:37:08] >> So, he was probably looking at Terry
[01:37:09] McAuliff's like,
[01:37:10] >> "Right,
[01:37:11] >> pretty good deal." Jerry McAuliff hadn't
[01:37:13] yet imported, you know, Chinese cars for
[01:37:16] for visas yet, but he was living large.
[01:37:19] >> Man, I didn't even understand how
[01:37:21] corrupt that world was when we lived in
[01:37:22] it. So then, speaking of, you wind up
[01:37:26] working at, you know, basically the
[01:37:28] number two for uh a guy called Frank
[01:37:34] Luntz. Frank Lunt, for those who haven't
[01:37:36] heard of Frank L, he's still around.
[01:37:38] >> Oh, very much.
[01:37:39] >> Yeah. It was the the biggest pollster in
[01:37:42] the Republican party. And more than just
[01:37:43] a pollster, he was like the message guy.
[01:37:45] Like, how do we communicate that, you
[01:37:47] know, cutting capital gains taxes for
[01:37:49] donors is part of the American dream
[01:37:54] or whatever? It's in the Constitution.
[01:37:56] Um, how do we soften all the
[01:37:59] environmental lunacy and make it
[01:38:00] palatable? Oh, let's call it climate
[01:38:03] change. You mean the [ __ ] weather?
[01:38:05] No, climate change.
[01:38:06] >> Did he come up with that?
[01:38:07] >> Came up with climate change. came up
[01:38:09] with death tax.
[01:38:10] >> Did he came up with climate change?
[01:38:11] >> Well, I say he his team. I was part of
[01:38:14] his team for like 6 years. And yes, I
[01:38:16] helped run that show with a couple of
[01:38:18] other very competent people. He, as you
[01:38:22] know, he's very complic he's he's like a
[01:38:24] walking dichotomy. He is
[01:38:28] occasionally brilliant. He's very smart
[01:38:31] naturally. He's lazy. He's dirty. He's
[01:38:34] dishonest.
[01:38:34] >> Dirty? What do you mean dirty?
[01:38:36] His favorite food group is thousand
[01:38:39] island dressing.
[01:38:40] >> Come on.
[01:38:41] >> And you just can't eat thousand island
[01:38:42] dressing without getting it all over
[01:38:44] yourself.
[01:38:45] >> And the biologicals,
[01:38:48] >> which are supposed to be unmentionable,
[01:38:49] but with Frank are ever evident
[01:38:52] everywhere.
[01:38:54] >> It was disgusting. No, no, no, no, no.
[01:38:56] The personal hygiene is like
[01:38:57] non-existent. I get much more graphic. I
[01:39:00] can't even tell you what his nickname
[01:39:01] around the office was.
[01:39:03] >> There's a guy who's walking around with
[01:39:04] literally a dead raccoon in his head.
[01:39:06] Yeah. Yeah. I know. I'm sorry. So many
[01:39:08] people
[01:39:08] >> don't skimp on the hairpiece. That's
[01:39:10] like rule one. I know. I know.
[01:39:12] >> But he was brilliant in his business
[01:39:15] because at least the business
[01:39:16] preposition that he had which was he
[01:39:19] understood I'm not sure if you remember
[01:39:20] there was a time
[01:39:23] Yeah. You really have to actually think
[01:39:24] back. There was a time in America where
[01:39:26] there was something called uh cable
[01:39:28] news.
[01:39:29] >> Yeah. I'd heard that.
[01:39:30] >> Yeah. People took it seriously.
[01:39:32] >> Yeah.
[01:39:32] >> And no one took it more seriously than
[01:39:34] Franklin's. So Franklin's aspired not
[01:39:38] only to hang out with famous people like
[01:39:40] in really close proximity, but to be on
[01:39:43] TV and he's very articulate and he's
[01:39:45] very aggressive. Like people say people
[01:39:48] occasionally say, "Oh, that guy's
[01:39:50] shameless." No, no, no. You've never
[01:39:52] seen Shameless until you've met Frank
[01:39:53] Lens cuz he literally has no shame gene.
[01:39:56] Like there's nothing you could do to
[01:39:58] Frank Lens in public to shame him. He's
[01:40:01] unshameable.
[01:40:03] But then again, part of the dichotomy is
[01:40:05] like also super socially awkward and
[01:40:08] socially aspirant. Like he wants to hang
[01:40:11] around people, but he and he's autistic
[01:40:14] in his eruptions, which are usually
[01:40:16] pretty funny. So, he's very verbal. He's
[01:40:20] energetic. He's got limitless aspiration
[01:40:25] to make dough and be on TV. and he
[01:40:28] recognizes actually that's a pretty
[01:40:30] common thing in corporate America and on
[01:40:33] the hill. So he's very close with new
[01:40:36] Gimrich in 94 and he got a lot of credit
[01:40:39] for coming up with the contract with
[01:40:41] America.
[01:40:43] I think he was
[01:40:45] maybe a little bit he was definitely
[01:40:47] very much involved. I don't think it was
[01:40:49] his entire baby. I think it was more NES
[01:40:51] and the people around N. whatever. Frank
[01:40:54] weasled in there, got a lot of credit
[01:40:56] for being part of the contract with
[01:40:58] America. And then of course the
[01:40:59] Republicans come in and they're in power
[01:41:01] for the first time in my lifetime and
[01:41:03] first time in like I don't know 32 years
[01:41:05] or something maybe 36 years. The first I
[01:41:07] can't remember the 94 election when
[01:41:10] Republicans got back into the House. It
[01:41:12] was the first time in three decades at
[01:41:14] least.
[01:41:15] And so Frank was there and his business
[01:41:19] model was I will come up with language
[01:41:22] and words and speeches for members on
[01:41:25] the Republican caucus. I'll do it for
[01:41:27] free. Then I'll promote those messages
[01:41:31] in corporate world and make a ton of
[01:41:33] money with people who also want to be on
[01:41:35] television. corporate heads, excuse me,
[01:41:38] Fortune 500, Fortune 100, Fortune50
[01:41:41] companies,
[01:41:42] and I'll go pitch them on some research
[01:41:46] product project that will allow them to
[01:41:49] understand their customers better and
[01:41:53] I'll incorporate the language that I'm
[01:41:55] devising and using for the benefit of
[01:41:58] Republicans. So he ingratiated himself
[01:42:00] with the Republicans at the same time
[01:42:02] he's ingratiating himself with corporate
[01:42:04] America all around this old antiquated
[01:42:09] now defunct medium cable news and it was
[01:42:13] brilliant. So he made it and he had no
[01:42:15] overhead because his entire business
[01:42:16] model relied upon
[01:42:20] getting people even though he was
[01:42:22] incredibly label label conscious like he
[01:42:24] went to UPEN he went to Oxford he had an
[01:42:28] honorific doctorate that he insisted
[01:42:31] people call him doctor
[01:42:33] >> he had people call him doctor
[01:42:34] >> oh Dr. Frank Lunt yes Dr. I didn't call
[01:42:39] him Dr. L. I called him I won't tell you
[01:42:41] what I called him called him Frank
[01:42:43] mostly but this is so Frank was rolling
[01:42:47] in the dough and didn't know what to do
[01:42:49] with it and he's indehaticable in his
[01:42:51] entire I will ad there are things about
[01:42:53] him that I hugely admire for sure his
[01:42:57] relentless nature his shamelessness
[01:43:00] you've never seen a pitch ever seen a
[01:43:03] pitch people talk about oh he's such a
[01:43:05] great pitch man and he knows how to go
[01:43:07] and speak to these prospective clients
[01:43:09] no one does it like Frank Lunt and with
[01:43:12] literally no preparation cuz his entire
[01:43:16] his entire strategy I would call
[01:43:19] humiliate the executive
[01:43:21] >> what yeah humiliate the executive
[01:43:23] generally in front of his underlings or
[01:43:26] a sub like not a CEO but like the guys
[01:43:30] who are angling for the CEO spot the
[01:43:32] various vice presidents and stuff who
[01:43:33] are sickopantic towards the CEO he would
[01:43:37] gather all the all the executives lives
[01:43:39] in one room, either a conference room or
[01:43:41] sometimes bigger like a like a an
[01:43:44] auditorium inside a Coca-Cola's
[01:43:46] headquarters or DAO's headquarters and
[01:43:49] he would go and he would give a
[01:43:51] presentation and like 5 minutes into the
[01:43:54] presentation he would identify one of
[01:43:56] the subexecutives
[01:43:58] by name and he would do everything he
[01:44:00] could to humiliate that person in front
[01:44:03] of all of his peers and his boss.
[01:44:05] >> Come on.
[01:44:07] >> Yeah.
[01:44:08] So this is a guy who actually
[01:44:09] understands the worst part of human
[01:44:11] nature because that does actually excite
[01:44:16] the satist in certain people, right? And
[01:44:20] so who gravitates to those jobs except
[01:44:22] people who a lot of them not all of them
[01:44:24] but some of them have that gene like oh
[01:44:27] public humiliation love to publicly
[01:44:30] humiliate you. And every single burn,
[01:44:32] like if you could see the if you could
[01:44:33] see the thought bubble above everybody's
[01:44:35] head, they're all saying, "Holy [ __ ]
[01:44:38] I'm so glad that's not me." Right? So
[01:44:41] everybody So at the end of his
[01:44:42] >> Well, how would he humiliate
[01:44:43] >> when he fin Oh, the most personal stuff,
[01:44:46] their clothing, their the asymmetry of
[01:44:49] their face, you know, big earlobes. I
[01:44:53] don't know. Like I mean like I know he
[01:44:57] was predatory,
[01:44:59] relentless,
[01:45:01] ruthless,
[01:45:02] and entertaining as hell. Like he's
[01:45:04] really filled with the English language.
[01:45:06] He's like fast. He's super fast. I'll
[01:45:08] give him that. He's and very articulate.
[01:45:10] And man, he would go after them. And so
[01:45:12] at the end he'd like softened up the
[01:45:14] entire
[01:45:17] >> I mean he would humiliate these
[01:45:20] >> actually
[01:45:21] >> at Coke headquarters.
[01:45:22] >> Yes. I saw him do it at Fizer. I saw him
[01:45:25] do it at Coke. I saw him do it. I mean
[01:45:27] we work he did work for some impressive
[01:45:30] people. Uh some huge companies.
[01:45:32] >> He worked for the Sacklers at Purdue
[01:45:34] Pharma. I I'm ashamed to say that I was
[01:45:36] involved in that and that's actually
[01:45:39] something I think about often. Actually,
[01:45:42] I bought into the whole line. It's like
[01:45:44] you were talking to me before, did you
[01:45:45] did you know that the intelligence
[01:45:47] agencies played such an aggressive role
[01:45:49] in American life and elections? No, I
[01:45:51] didn't. I also really didn't know. It
[01:45:54] turns out I should have listened to a
[01:45:55] lot of the blue-haired vagina hatwearing
[01:45:58] I know crazy women because a lot of the
[01:46:01] [ __ ] they said about the Iraq war
[01:46:04] obviously true about the Bush
[01:46:05] administration obviously true only in
[01:46:08] hindsight for me at least and I
[01:46:10] dismissed them and I dismissed in a lot
[01:46:13] of the jobs I had because I did end up
[01:46:15] in a position defending some of the
[01:46:17] worst corporate interests in America and
[01:46:21] I believed that when people attack
[01:46:24] big pharma for instance or the Sacklers
[01:46:27] or they're really just against, you
[01:46:30] know, corporate world. They're really
[01:46:32] against capitalism. They're really
[01:46:34] they're just communists. They're
[01:46:35] >> against America,
[01:46:36] >> right? They're against America. So, I I
[01:46:39] grew up thinking that and it dovetailed
[01:46:42] well with my job because I ended up I
[01:46:44] mean, they're not all evil, of course,
[01:46:46] and a lot of them employ tons of people
[01:46:48] and do good things and we couldn't
[01:46:50] survive without them. So I'm not
[01:46:51] attacking all of them. Gladly attacked
[01:46:53] the Sacklers and Purdue Pharma though
[01:46:56] because that not only you know more
[01:46:58] about this topic than most. But you know
[01:47:02] it also dovetailed with an entire
[01:47:04] societal effort that they had which I
[01:47:06] was very much a part of to convince
[01:47:08] Americans that there is no such thing as
[01:47:10] acceptable pain. You cannot be in pain.
[01:47:13] You shouldn't be in pain. Someone needs
[01:47:15] to be responsible for your pain and you
[01:47:17] need to eradicate your pain. That was
[01:47:19] that was what they were talking about in
[01:47:21] 2000 in 1999 2001 2 and three. They
[01:47:26] engaged in a societywide campaign to
[01:47:29] convince Americans that pain was
[01:47:32] unacceptable. Not just for chronic
[01:47:35] cancer sufferers or people who'd been
[01:47:38] injured in war or people who'd had, you
[01:47:40] know, back injury 20 years ago. You
[01:47:43] should not be feeling in pain ever at
[01:47:45] all. And there's a solution for that.
[01:47:47] And they obviously had the solution
[01:47:50] further. They're the ones as you know
[01:47:53] who pion or maybe didn't pioneer it but
[01:47:55] they took it to the next level uh
[01:47:58] attacking the people that they'd hooked
[01:48:00] on oxycottton when they said and I said
[01:48:04] engaged in a ton of research projects
[01:48:06] and jury uh messaging with that company
[01:48:10] where we'd go in and test messages and
[01:48:13] arguments but really sort of like a
[01:48:16] pushpull designed to not just gauge
[01:48:19] public opinion but to very much
[01:48:22] influence public opinion and then we
[01:48:24] would
[01:48:24] >> to implant messages.
[01:48:25] >> Yes, very much so. And then of course
[01:48:27] because of his business model, he would
[01:48:28] use those messages and it would be
[01:48:30] incorporated in thought leaders and
[01:48:33] elected officials around the country.
[01:48:34] They would use that same language and
[01:48:36] that that was in its essence. You're not
[01:48:39] responsible for your pain. You shouldn't
[01:48:42] have pain. But further you this is a
[01:48:44] non-addict this is not an addictive
[01:48:46] product. And if you are addicted to it,
[01:48:48] it's because you've been abusing it.
[01:48:50] It's because you have some latent, some
[01:48:53] long dormant addictive thing within you
[01:48:56] that's now been released and you also
[01:48:58] probably have been abusing the product.
[01:49:00] Like, have you been hitting it with a
[01:49:01] hammer and smashing it into dust and
[01:49:03] snorting it? Well, that's on you. So,
[01:49:06] that shit's evil.
[01:49:08] >> It is evil. And I never You're thinking
[01:49:10] about it much more broadly than I ever
[01:49:12] have. So, I have always been focused on
[01:49:13] the add, you know, the physical
[01:49:14] addiction, the societal destruction. You
[01:49:17] know, you and I both spend a lot of the
[01:49:19] year in a place that's been really,
[01:49:20] really
[01:49:22] >> hollowed out,
[01:49:22] >> hollowed out by it. And we know people,
[01:49:25] a very good friend of ours is now in
[01:49:26] prison because of drug addiction. So
[01:49:29] anyway, whatever.
[01:49:30] >> We have seen it, both of us,
[01:49:32] >> but I have never really thought about
[01:49:34] what you just said, which is they were
[01:49:35] making a broader pitch about pain
[01:49:38] >> and how pain is always bad. And I think
[01:49:39] if you any any man especially in middle
[01:49:42] age looking back has to recognize that
[01:49:45] the painful moments are the are the best
[01:49:48] some of the best moments the most the
[01:49:49] most important
[01:49:50] >> necessary
[01:49:51] >> absolutely necessary.
[01:49:52] >> Yeah. Failure is necessary. Pain is
[01:49:54] necessary
[01:49:54] >> including physical pain sometimes.
[01:49:56] >> Very much.
[01:49:57] >> So to say that our goal is to eliminate
[01:49:58] all pain that's evil.
[01:50:00] >> Yes. I agree. And I wish I had
[01:50:02] recognized it as such. I totally I don't
[01:50:04] think I was I think I was probably
[01:50:06] smarter back then cuz I was still
[01:50:08] smoking cigarettes. So um
[01:50:14] um and I was younger but anyway I was I
[01:50:17] still didn't recognize it.
[01:50:18] >> Lacking wisdom at that age right lacking
[01:50:20] wisdom.
[01:50:20] >> Men in their 30s don't have the
[01:50:21] perspective that a man in his 50s has.
[01:50:23] >> Yes. Very much so.
[01:50:24] >> Assuming he makes it.
[01:50:25] >> Can I say one more thing about the lens
[01:50:27] thing? It was it was actually well the
[01:50:29] business model
[01:50:31] was amazing in terms of it was very
[01:50:34] profitable. It was effective. He came up
[01:50:36] with some effective language. So it's a
[01:50:37] it's a quasi it's a dual track research
[01:50:41] thing where you do quantitative research
[01:50:44] you know actual polling calling. Polling
[01:50:47] was long before online polling and then
[01:50:49] qualitative research with people in a
[01:50:51] group a focus group but he expanded it
[01:50:53] to like six times the normal size. So
[01:50:57] your normal focus group has like 8 to 10
[01:50:58] or 12 people in it. And obviously it
[01:51:01] depends who you recruit to be in that
[01:51:04] focus group. Um but then he expanded
[01:51:07] that to like 60 people and then he had
[01:51:09] an electronic dial which was actually a
[01:51:12] dial but he called it dial testing where
[01:51:14] you could gauge individual words and
[01:51:17] sentences in real time. So every single
[01:51:20] person in the audience is reacting to a
[01:51:23] speech. a speech which is littered with
[01:51:28] messages that you're testing and they
[01:51:30] could react in real time to each word
[01:51:31] and phrase. They could, you know, it's a
[01:51:34] visceral reaction. Do you like it or are
[01:51:36] you repelled by it?
[01:51:38] >> And it's pretty effective actually. And
[01:51:41] I I think a lot of the language that he
[01:51:43] came up with was great, but because of
[01:51:45] his total inability because of his manic
[01:51:48] behavior and his dishonesty and his
[01:51:51] pension for yelling and screaming and
[01:51:54] treating people horribly, didn't
[01:51:56] actually treat me horribly. He lied to
[01:51:58] me a number of times and I got into some
[01:52:00] big arguments with him and I was too
[01:52:03] young and unwise to understand you're
[01:52:05] not supposed to confront your boss and
[01:52:07] right
[01:52:07] >> the way you would confront anybody else,
[01:52:09] >> right? He's not a park ranger.
[01:52:11] >> He's not a park ranger. I was more
[01:52:14] respectful to the park rangers. Probably
[01:52:16] the two men I felt bad for. Um but
[01:52:19] anyway, no, but sorry. I was trying to
[01:52:21] compliment him, which is all he cared
[01:52:23] about was the product and which was the
[01:52:26] written word and he never gave you
[01:52:29] enough time. There was no schedule. He
[01:52:32] was delused with clients with highpaying
[01:52:35] clients and he was disorganized.
[01:52:39] And so he would rely upon there was a
[01:52:41] period where we were handling like 12
[01:52:43] huge clients and was like three writers
[01:52:46] or two writers and client handholders
[01:52:49] you know interfacing with the client
[01:52:50] because Frank wasn't good at that. He
[01:52:52] was very good at humiliating them and
[01:52:56] coming and coming to the crux,
[01:52:57] understanding human nature to the extent
[01:52:59] that he could get someone to say, "Yes,
[01:53:01] I'm going to pay you a ridiculous amount
[01:53:02] of money for a research project that
[01:53:04] will take 6 weeks and then allow me to
[01:53:08] understand my customer better." That he
[01:53:10] was great at. He was not great at
[01:53:13] allocating. He was not great at
[01:53:14] planning. And so the end result was
[01:53:18] a total beautiful meritocracy. like you
[01:53:21] could only survive in that situation
[01:53:24] unless you produced. It was like a camp
[01:53:26] campaigns are like that too. I'm sure
[01:53:28] you know. It's like doesn't matter where
[01:53:30] you came from. Doesn't matter what you
[01:53:32] did yesterday or tomorrow. It matters
[01:53:34] that you [ __ ] produce now
[01:53:36] >> on time. You can't It's like in that old
[01:53:39] medium cable news. You didn't have an
[01:53:41] opportunity to be like I'm not done with
[01:53:43] my script. It's 7:00 and you're going on
[01:53:45] the air regardless.
[01:53:47] >> Great. It's the greatest part about it.
[01:53:49] It was the greatest part. That was
[01:53:50] that's what I'm saying. It was the
[01:53:51] greatest part about it because of that
[01:53:54] job because you just had no
[01:53:58] room for failure and every day was an
[01:54:01] opportunity to prove that you were up to
[01:54:03] the challenge and then further silly
[01:54:06] cliche but true that you know oh he's
[01:54:08] got an inch wide mileong knowledge. I
[01:54:12] feel like that a little bit because I
[01:54:13] was compelled as were the other guys I
[01:54:16] worked with to absorb the details of
[01:54:19] something that's very complex, a
[01:54:21] particular business that I had never
[01:54:23] been involved in or a policy or some
[01:54:26] capability of a future product or you
[01:54:30] know something initiative and you had to
[01:54:34] be able to speak about it, write about
[01:54:36] it articulately
[01:54:39] and compellingly on no notice at All.
[01:54:42] >> So, I think that sounds like the best
[01:54:43] training.
[01:54:44] >> I am. So, that's exactly how I think
[01:54:46] about it. And despite the weird and I
[01:54:49] wasn't trying to gratuitously attack
[01:54:51] >> No.
[01:54:52] >> I wrote him a letter actually like 6
[01:54:53] years ago and and just contemplative
[01:54:56] letter saying
[01:54:58] despite all of our differences, despite
[01:55:01] the various tensions we've had, despite
[01:55:03] the fact you fired me three times and
[01:55:05] then hired me back the next day and paid
[01:55:07] me more money. Still not fairly, but uh
[01:55:10] despite all of those things, um I thank
[01:55:14] you cuz it was the best most satisfying
[01:55:16] job I've ever had.
[01:55:18] >> No.
[01:55:18] >> No, of course not.
[01:55:19] >> No. Well, he I I
[01:55:21] >> He had a stroke and it changed him
[01:55:23] actually.
[01:55:23] >> Well, that's
[01:55:24] >> No. No. It actually he at his own
[01:55:26] admission he had a stroke that he
[01:55:28] survived
[01:55:29] like all of us at certain age, you know,
[01:55:32] he has a terrible diet and leads a
[01:55:35] unhealthy life and had a stroke and it
[01:55:37] changed him. It actually made him more
[01:55:38] compassionate from
[01:55:39] >> Oh, good.
[01:55:40] >> Yes. No, he had that attitude.
[01:55:42] >> So, Frank, let's I remember and I don't
[01:55:44] want to be I mean, I feel sorry for
[01:55:45] Frank and I love the fact that he's
[01:55:47] improved after his stroke, both that
[01:55:49] he's okay and that he's that it's made
[01:55:52] him a better person. I I do think that's
[01:55:53] common. I mean, as we were saying about
[01:55:55] pain, it actually can it certainly
[01:55:57] improved me.
[01:55:58] >> And he was aware of it, by the way. Can
[01:55:59] I tell you how I knew?
[01:56:00] >> No. I called him uh five or 6 years ago
[01:56:03] about some common interest that we had
[01:56:06] and uh I shot him a text and said, "Do
[01:56:08] you have 2 minutes? I just want to tell
[01:56:09] you something interesting. Maybe we can
[01:56:11] let me tell you something interesting."
[01:56:13] So he texts me back said, "Yeah, call
[01:56:14] me." So I called him. First words, "Hey,
[01:56:18] how are you?" I was like, "I'm doing
[01:56:19] great, man. Uh let me tell and he goes,
[01:56:22] no, how are you?"
[01:56:26] >> I was like, "Do you hear?" No. I said,
[01:56:27] "I have to put a cigarette out on his
[01:56:29] wrist." is no. I said, "I beg your
[01:56:31] pardon, Frank." He said, "No, I I just
[01:56:34] I'm genuinely interested. Like, how are
[01:56:36] you? How is your wife? How is your son?
[01:56:38] Do you still have dogs?" I was like,
[01:56:40] "Someone take over your body? Like, are
[01:56:42] you [ __ ] serious? I've known you for
[01:56:46] like 26, 30, maybe 28 years at that
[01:56:48] point. You've never once asked me a
[01:56:51] personal question, and that's just fine.
[01:56:53] But you're asking me how I'm doing. Are
[01:56:56] you okay?" And that's when he told me he
[01:56:59] said actually I had a stroke and I said
[01:57:00] oh I'm so sorry. I was genuinely sorry
[01:57:02] to hear that but it yes it had a good
[01:57:04] effect on him and I as I said I am
[01:57:08] eternally grateful as I have expressed
[01:57:10] to him.
[01:57:11] >> Of course no I feel that way about all
[01:57:13] my bosses some of whom you know
[01:57:15] regularly denounce me. But I'm always
[01:57:17] grateful for every experience and
[01:57:19] especially when you're young and you're
[01:57:20] learning a lot. I mean it's amazing. I
[01:57:22] know, of course. I know Frank also. He
[01:57:24] was a fixture in Republican world in DC.
[01:57:26] He was at the center of Republican world
[01:57:28] in DC. Yes.
[01:57:29] >> I always feel like he had weird He kind
[01:57:30] of hated the Wasps. Did you get that
[01:57:32] from him ever?
[01:57:33] >> Yes, I did. It was It was uh I've
[01:57:35] encountered it before, but with him, it
[01:57:37] was very pronounced a lot actually to
[01:57:39] say it, but
[01:57:40] >> not just a hate, but an attraction also.
[01:57:44] >> Yeah, it was a Yeah, it was like, "Let
[01:57:47] me saddle up next to you and then let me
[01:57:49] stick a [ __ ] dagger in your kidney."
[01:57:51] That that was the attitude.
[01:57:53] >> But there was something about that. The
[01:57:54] fact that you were a wasp triggered him,
[01:57:56] right?
[01:57:56] >> He would talk about it.
[01:57:58] >> Oh, actually,
[01:57:59] >> are you joking? Oh, he would talk about
[01:58:02] it all the time. Well, he'd make, you
[01:58:04] know, derogatory comments or or
[01:58:06] derogatory complimentary comments.
[01:58:09] That's what I'm saying. It was It was an
[01:58:11] attraction and a revulsion or something.
[01:58:14] I It was bizarre.
[01:58:15] >> Like, what did he say?
[01:58:17] Oh, that's go. Well, he would just say
[01:58:19] nothing nothing hugely creative, but he
[01:58:21] would say, "Oh, that's what the wasps.
[01:58:23] Oh, you do that." Or, "You've got such
[01:58:26] attack my name occasionally." Or my
[01:58:29] dress.
[01:58:30] >> Yeah, that's a big one.
[01:58:31] >> Yeah. I didn't wear a dress in the
[01:58:32] office very often, but only on
[01:58:35] >> only when you were going out with Frank.
[01:58:37] >> Yeah, exactly.
[01:58:38] >> But he was fixated on that
[01:58:39] >> very No, evidently. Yes. Unquestionably.
[01:58:43] >> Yeah. Bill Crystal was the same way with
[01:58:45] me. I remember when Bill Crystal, if we
[01:58:47] may take a moment,
[01:58:48] >> Yeah.
[01:58:49] >> Bill Crystal was a smart guy.
[01:58:52] >> Oh, yeah. Not that smart, but clever.
[01:58:55] >> Not that smart. He came across as a
[01:58:56] smart guy.
[01:58:57] >> Yeah.
[01:58:57] >> A thoughtful guy, a compelling guy. It
[01:59:00] was weird. I used to respect him.
[01:59:02] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[01:59:03] >> He's like a puddle.
[01:59:05] >> Yeah. But, you know,
[01:59:07] I've I've learned so much. Um like Yes.
[01:59:11] He's clever. Um he did a fair amount of
[01:59:16] reading back in the 70s you know in
[01:59:19] school. Yes. He went to collegiate in
[01:59:21] New York which is you know was a a
[01:59:23] really good school a rigorous school and
[01:59:24] then went to Harvard got his PhD forced
[01:59:26] to do a ton of reading. So he had read
[01:59:28] you know
[01:59:30] >> Escalus and you know he had read um a
[01:59:33] lot and Rouso and and he could kind of
[01:59:35] remember parts of it and sort of half
[01:59:37] quote it sort of but what you real which
[01:59:40] was impressive and I'm not against that.
[01:59:42] um he had like three lines of poetry he
[01:59:44] could probably do,
[01:59:46] but you realized over time that that was
[01:59:49] more a party trick than a reflection of
[01:59:52] his like actual area edition and that on
[01:59:55] the wisdom scale like there was none and
[01:59:58] he was really mission driven.
[02:00:00] >> Yes. and um
[02:00:01] >> apparent now and
[02:00:02] >> apparent now, but he was it was not
[02:00:04] obvious to me because I was an idiot and
[02:00:07] uh he was smart for sure, but he was not
[02:00:11] that smart at all. And um and the
[02:00:14] mission was, you know, hated
[02:00:15] Christianity.
[02:00:16] >> Yes.
[02:00:17] >> And uh and really really hated it. And
[02:00:19] um
[02:00:19] >> the mask is off now.
[02:00:20] >> Well, the mask is off now. But if I look
[02:00:22] back on this,
[02:00:25] you know, he was opposed to American
[02:00:26] sovereignty. He was opposed basically to
[02:00:28] the population of America. I just really
[02:00:29] was hostile a lot, very hostile. And um
[02:00:33] there were glimpses of it, but I just
[02:00:35] wasn't I wasn't wise enough to to
[02:00:37] understand what was going on. Plus, I
[02:00:38] was like, you know, young and he was
[02:00:40] employing me. And so there were lots of
[02:00:42] incentives not to notice, but he was
[02:00:44] very fixated on the wasp thing with me
[02:00:46] and it would bubble up sometimes like
[02:00:48] what the hell was that? You know, it
[02:00:50] wouldn't occur to me to be like, well, I
[02:00:52] never really thought about him being
[02:00:53] Jewish to be honest. I really didn't. He
[02:00:55] is Jewish, but I didn't think about it
[02:00:56] that much. He thought a lot about me
[02:00:58] being a wasp though. There's no
[02:00:59] question. And it would come out anyway.
[02:01:02] It's just interesting. I never have
[02:01:04] heard anybody mention that dynamic
[02:01:07] before. But um but I noticed that in the
[02:01:10] lunch too cuz he would say stuff to me
[02:01:12] too.
[02:01:12] >> Very much
[02:01:13] >> wasps. It was like well there's no like
[02:01:15] meeting. Probably should be probably
[02:01:17] wouldn't have disappeared if there was
[02:01:18] but would have turned out a little
[02:01:20] differently.
[02:01:21] >> Right.
[02:01:22] >> Get off the golf course.
[02:01:23] >> Yeah. Get off the golf course. Get some
[02:01:25] self-awareness. get a defense mechanism,
[02:01:27] but you know, none of those are visible.
[02:01:28] >> Respect yourself.
[02:01:30] >> Exactly. Hate yourself.
[02:01:31] >> What your ancestors built
[02:01:33] >> 100%. And I do think that one I mean I
[02:01:36] don't deal with many wasps anymore cuz
[02:01:38] they really really hate me. Um, and I'm
[02:01:41] sure you probably have the same
[02:01:42] experience. But
[02:01:43] >> don't you think it's the same dynamic?
[02:01:45] Selflo
[02:01:46] from cowardice.
[02:01:48] >> Cowardice leads to self-loathing which
[02:01:50] leads to hatred of others.
[02:01:52] >> I totally agree. If someone will hate
[02:01:54] himself, he's probably not going to
[02:01:55] treat me well.
[02:01:55] >> Yeah, exactly.
[02:01:56] >> That's what I think.
[02:01:57] >> And they have a lot to be ashamed of in
[02:01:59] the cowardice department. I mean, these
[02:02:01] are the bravest people in the world who
[02:02:02] went over the top of the trenches,
[02:02:04] >> right?
[02:02:05] >> The wasps.
[02:02:05] >> Yes.
[02:02:06] >> And um there's a lot of lying about
[02:02:08] that, but their numbers are there in the
[02:02:10] first world war. It was all wasps,
[02:02:11] including our our our ancestors. So, um
[02:02:14] a lot of them. So, yeah, they had a lot
[02:02:16] of bravery. They seem to have lost that
[02:02:18] probably through comfort
[02:02:20] >> and booze
[02:02:21] >> and booze
[02:02:21] >> and booze. Sorry.
[02:02:23] >> Yeah. And booze. And they kind of know
[02:02:26] that and and they're shrinking little
[02:02:28] islands. Well, now they've almost shrunk
[02:02:29] to nothing. But um and they're mad. Do
[02:02:32] you take any [ __ ] from them when you run
[02:02:34] into them?
[02:02:36] >> It's funny. I I took some [ __ ] actually
[02:02:38] from Neil Bush, who was
[02:02:40] >> in an unimpressive family. Probably the
[02:02:42] least impressive of that family.
[02:02:45] >> The rest of them are charming mostly.
[02:02:47] >> There a couple of them I I like. Me too.
[02:02:49] I'm not going to shame them by naming
[02:02:50] them, but I know them. Me too. Well, I
[02:02:52] don't mind shaming Neil Bush because
[02:02:53] Neil Bush,
[02:02:54] >> this is George W's brother.
[02:02:56] >> Yes. Attacked me in the most passive
[02:03:01] aggressive way
[02:03:03] >> at a fraternity party that my son's
[02:03:05] fraternity put on, which was like a
[02:03:07] formal cocktail and I accidentally
[02:03:09] bumped into him and I backwards and I
[02:03:13] turned around. I said, "Oh my gosh,
[02:03:14] forgive me. I'm so sorry." And then I
[02:03:15] said, "Oh, Neil Bush. Hi, Buckley
[02:03:17] Carlson. Nice to see you. met you in
[02:03:20] Washington years ago and then he did
[02:03:24] something he had this this act he has
[02:03:25] this affectation about he's not very
[02:03:27] smart first of all
[02:03:29] >> he has this affectation about him that
[02:03:30] you that you encounter occasionally and
[02:03:32] it's
[02:03:33] >> he said something really nasty about you
[02:03:37] and the content of your show you were on
[02:03:40] that I forgot what it's called
[02:03:42] >> one of those channels
[02:03:42] >> one of those channels and it was named
[02:03:44] after a animal that I really admire
[02:03:48] >> but back when that medium actually
[02:03:49] mattered. Um, and he made some off-hand
[02:03:53] comment and I said, "I beg your pardon
[02:03:55] and it this went back and forth a couple
[02:03:57] times and I was trying to be a
[02:03:58] gentleman. I had my son next to me and
[02:04:01] Neil Bush's son who was a fraternity
[02:04:02] brother of my son and so we're at a
[02:04:06] cocktail party. I'm not going to get in
[02:04:07] some argument with this guy." Uh, but I
[02:04:10] wasn't going to back down either. And so
[02:04:12] I said something about the content of
[02:04:14] your show and what you'd said, but he
[02:04:16] wouldn't be specific about it. And I
[02:04:18] said, and he said, "Oh, you know, I'm
[02:04:20] not judging. I just call it like it is."
[02:04:22] He must have said that six times. I'm
[02:04:24] not judging. I just call it like it is.
[02:04:26] And I said, "Well,
[02:04:27] >> Bush,
[02:04:28] >> really? You call it like it is? Huh? Uh,
[02:04:30] so what exactly specifically did my
[02:04:32] brother say that you don't agree with?"
[02:04:36] >> Well, I haven't actually seen his show.
[02:04:38] I read about it in the New York Times.
[02:04:40] >> He said that
[02:04:42] >> this who's part of a family that I mean
[02:04:45] I actually Exactly. specific people in
[02:04:47] the family are quality and nice and
[02:04:49] deserve kindness. But the policies and
[02:04:54] the administration of George Bush was
[02:04:58] disastrous and we're still feeling the
[02:04:59] effects of it today. I think about it
[02:05:02] often and um I lived in Texas for a
[02:05:05] while and I can tell you the people in
[02:05:06] Texas think about it all the time. They
[02:05:08] feel completely betrayed by that family
[02:05:10] and George Bush specific. They have
[02:05:12] every reason to feel that way.
[02:05:13] >> Yes, they do. And so I share that
[02:05:15] revulsion. Um, but anyway, I'm
[02:05:18] sympathetic to the fact that he is a
[02:05:20] sibling, a non
[02:05:23] uh public person, and a sibling of
[02:05:26] people and the son of a man who was
[02:05:29] attacked relentlessly by people who
[02:05:32] didn't have specificity in their
[02:05:33] attacks, didn't even know what they were
[02:05:35] talking about, and had no trouble
[02:05:38] attacking family members to him
[02:05:40] personally. And yet he's going to engage
[02:05:43] in the same thing with me. I mean, I
[02:05:45] thought this is that's actually when it
[02:05:46] really came home to me that the that the
[02:05:49] Wasps have not just lost, but that
[02:05:51] they've lost will and they've
[02:05:53] surrendered and they're unwilling to
[02:05:55] make a stand. And the fact that he had
[02:05:57] adopted that leftist attitude without
[02:06:01] being smart.
[02:06:02] >> Well, it's part, you know, one of the
[02:06:04] things that there were a lot of good
[02:06:05] things about the Wasp. Obviously, there
[02:06:07] were some bad things about the Wasps.
[02:06:08] Um, but one of the good things was they
[02:06:11] were totally committed to uh fairness
[02:06:15] and at the heart of fairness is the
[02:06:16] understanding that we're born and will
[02:06:18] die and we'll be judged as individuals
[02:06:20] not as groups and therefore we do not
[02:06:23] believe in collective punishment. The
[02:06:24] country was founded on that premise by
[02:06:26] wasps and uh you know to abandon that is
[02:06:31] to abandon everything
[02:06:32] >> especially when it's the last country on
[02:06:33] earth that still believes that.
[02:06:35] >> Yeah, that's exactly right. It's
[02:06:36] important to
[02:06:36] >> want you to attack a man for one of his
[02:06:38] relatives. I mean,
[02:06:40] >> everyone in our family has been attacked
[02:06:41] for some other member of the family. So,
[02:06:44] we're all very familiar with that, but
[02:06:46] um you know, I'm proud to say one thing
[02:06:49] I'm proud about our family is that no
[02:06:51] one would ever do that.
[02:06:52] >> No, not a chance.
[02:06:53] >> No, I'd be happy to have dinner with
[02:06:55] Yamin's brother and never, you know,
[02:06:57] attack him for cannibalism because he's
[02:06:59] not the one who committed it
[02:07:01] >> that I know of.
[02:07:04] Well, Uncle Buck, um,
[02:07:07] I just got to ask you one final
[02:07:08] question. You've spent your life. I
[02:07:11] haven't even I'm not I'm not going to
[02:07:12] violate your privacy by explaining some
[02:07:14] of the things you've done or places
[02:07:16] you've been or people you've worked with
[02:07:17] or whatever because it's nobody's
[02:07:18] business and you'll divulge it if you
[02:07:19] want to, but you've had a really
[02:07:20] interesting life, but it's been very
[02:07:22] interesting life, but it's been um like
[02:07:24] our father, but it's all been very
[02:07:25] private. Haven't been in public at all.
[02:07:28] >> No.
[02:07:29] >> Right.
[02:07:29] >> By design.
[02:07:30] >> Oh, I know. Oh, I'm aware. Yes. I'm
[02:07:32] aware. And um but now all of a sudden
[02:07:35] you've like just entered full-blown into
[02:07:38] the public debate online after, you
[02:07:41] know, 54 years of avoiding it. And you
[02:07:43] certainly have seen stuff you could have
[02:07:45] added to the public conversation, but
[02:07:46] you didn't. And you've reserved it for
[02:07:48] Christmas dinner at our house. So, thank
[02:07:50] you for that. But now that you're in
[02:07:52] the, you know, public, what's that like?
[02:07:57] I hadn't anticipated it. Shock
[02:07:59] shockingly calling Neil Bush dumb. And I
[02:08:02] feel pretty dumb that I didn't
[02:08:03] anticipate that, but it's because I
[02:08:07] haven't had a governor. I've had the
[02:08:08] freedom to say what I want to say in the
[02:08:10] venues that I operate. Um, I must say
[02:08:13] I've had a lot of fortune in my life, a
[02:08:16] lot of blessings, but principally in the
[02:08:19] business world, I've been able to work
[02:08:21] with some people. I have some longtime
[02:08:23] clients who've who are aligned
[02:08:27] um who are Christian
[02:08:29] >> who are very smart and very loyal and
[02:08:32] they've allowed me to operate and my job
[02:08:35] doesn't demand I write primarily I come
[02:08:37] up with strategic stuff but uh strategy
[02:08:41] uh but I've been allowed to lead an
[02:08:44] independent and private life and I've
[02:08:47] enjoyed it. Um, I don't have any young
[02:08:50] children who I can embarrass or under my
[02:08:53] wing at the moment. So, that's great.
[02:08:55] Uh, but again, I didn't anticipate it.
[02:08:57] And,
[02:08:58] >> but the other thing I would say is
[02:09:01] I'm not a coward. I love this country
[02:09:04] and I really don't appreciate what's
[02:09:06] happening to it, what's been happening
[02:09:08] to it. And it feels like there's a lot
[02:09:10] of foot. There's a lot going on that I
[02:09:13] don't necessarily understand, but I feel
[02:09:16] like there
[02:09:17] >> Yeah, there's a battle. Oh,
[02:09:18] >> there is a massive battle. And it does
[02:09:22] remind me um
[02:09:25] simple thing ever. Someone said the
[02:09:27] other day, I don't mind saying who it
[02:09:28] was. It was great. Rick Warren, who
[02:09:30] wrote Purpose-Driven Life, started
[02:09:33] listening to his podcasts, and boy is he
[02:09:36] wise. And boy is he using the tools that
[02:09:39] God gave him to communicate sometimes
[02:09:42] complicated things in a very simple way.
[02:09:44] And he said
[02:09:47] at the end, you know, we're going to
[02:09:49] have a final exam and there are exactly
[02:09:52] two questions on that exam and you can't
[02:09:54] avoid it and it's what did you do with
[02:09:56] my son Jesus and what did you do with
[02:09:59] the purpose God gave you.
[02:10:02] >> Wow. That's a pretty sobering thought.
[02:10:04] >> Yes, it is.
[02:10:05] >> And once you have it's true. And so I've
[02:10:08] so I'm not I guess I'm middle middle
[02:10:11] young middle-aged something like that.
[02:10:14] um little weathered
[02:10:17] >> but I have
[02:10:18] >> her father was more weathered than both
[02:10:19] of us put together and he made it a long
[02:10:21] time.
[02:10:21] >> Yes, he did. Uh but I don't know every
[02:10:24] man has an obligation to defend what he
[02:10:26] loves and to practice that. So I love
[02:10:31] this country and I and there's something
[02:10:34] going on and I want to play a role. I
[02:10:37] want to I want to do battle. I want to
[02:10:39] do battle. That's that clear. Seriously.
[02:10:43] Seriously.
[02:10:44] >> There's no one better.
[02:10:45] >> No.
[02:10:46] >> If I can just end with one vignette
[02:10:48] that's been in our family all this time,
[02:10:49] but it's I don't know almost 10 years
[02:10:51] ago. I was at work cuz my job the time I
[02:10:54] was at work was public. So when I was at
[02:10:55] work, uh, Antifa came to our house. And
[02:10:58] of course, as I've said, we've always
[02:10:59] lived next to each other our whole
[02:11:00] lives. So, uh, my wife was home alone
[02:11:04] and all these people came and tried to
[02:11:06] bang through the front door and spray
[02:11:08] painted her house and, you know, Antifa
[02:11:10] mob came into our house, whatever. I was
[02:11:12] not even aware this was happening. So my
[02:11:14] wife is in the pantry of the house like
[02:11:16] people are trying to b you know break
[02:11:17] down the door. Dogs are barking. She
[02:11:20] does not call the police. She calls you
[02:11:22] first because everyone in our family
[02:11:24] would always call you first if there was
[02:11:25] a problem. And and then she calls the
[02:11:28] cops. Well, the cops for some reason got
[02:11:30] there before you. And then you showed up
[02:11:33] as the cops were just pulling up which
[02:11:35] meant that you couldn't shoot anybody
[02:11:37] and that you were mad for weeks after.
[02:11:39] But I'll never forget the next day when
[02:11:41] I saw you for lunch. Like I just feel
[02:11:43] bad I couldn't shoot anybody and they
[02:11:45] were terrifying Susie and I but the
[02:11:47] police were right there so I couldn't
[02:11:48] shoot them and I'm just I just feel bad
[02:11:49] about it and I was like it's okay.
[02:11:51] >> It was it was a justifiable sanctioned
[02:11:54] culling. It would have been society
[02:11:57] would have been much improved. I would
[02:11:59] have declared a tax credit that year.
[02:12:02] Don't you think?
[02:12:02] >> Oh, I can't talk about this. But that
[02:12:04] was so good. It was so it was so good.
[02:12:06] And everyone in our family was like,
[02:12:08] "Yeah, Uncle Buck got there after the
[02:12:09] police. You don't Antifa was lucky."
[02:12:13] >> He was hilarious.
[02:12:14] >> I don't think I've ever experience such
[02:12:16] frustration. Actually,
[02:12:17] >> oh, I know.
[02:12:18] >> mandated restraint. Oh, Uncle Buck,
[02:12:21] thank you. Thank you so much. That was
[02:12:23] awesome. Appreciate it.
[02:12:25] [Applause]
[02:12:25] [Music]
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