The Private Equity Veterinary Scam Making You Poorer and Killing Your Pets

[00:00:04] Joe, thank you for doing this. I don't [00:00:06] think I've ever I probably have. I don't [00:00:07] remember. I don't think I've ever [00:00:08] interviewed an advertiser. And um so I [00:00:11] just want to be clear about why I'm [00:00:12] doing this interview. So I called you [00:00:14] several months ago to ask you if you [00:00:16] wanted to advertise on our show because [00:00:18] you have a pet related company. I love [00:00:20] dogs. I've got a dog right there. And um [00:00:23] we had this conversation that was like [00:00:25] so unbelievably interesting. [00:00:28] so interesting that I haven't stopped [00:00:29] thinking about it. So that's I'm just [00:00:31] want to be fully transparent about why [00:00:34] uh I asked you to come. Thank you for [00:00:35] for doing it. So here's here's my real [00:00:39] question. [00:00:41] Veterinary care, anyone who owns a dog [00:00:44] or cat knows a lot about it. There's no [00:00:47] back stop. There's no health insurance, [00:00:49] whatever. And you'll pay anything [00:00:51] [laughter] because [00:00:52] >> it's your pet. It's [00:00:53] >> You're right. it's a member of your [00:00:55] family and it's getting really really [00:00:57] expensive. So, can you just give us the [00:00:59] overview? Why is it so expensive to say [00:01:01] bring your dog in for his shots? Like, [00:01:03] how does this system work? [00:01:05] >> Yep. [00:01:06] >> Just to put a pin on that, veterinary [00:01:08] care has grown 2x the rate of inflation. [00:01:12] So, we talk about inflation. Yeah. So, [00:01:15] the inflation is already high. [00:01:17] >> Yeah. [00:01:17] >> Veterinary inflation is double. It's [00:01:20] like 2x. That's how crazy it is. So [00:01:23] something that was $50 is literally $100 [00:01:27] uh a year later. [00:01:28] >> What? Why? [00:01:30] >> There's a number of factors. One, [00:01:32] there's been a lot of private equity [00:01:34] consolidation in the space. [laughter] [00:01:36] >> I could have guessed that. [00:01:38] >> Follow the money. So, you know, that [00:01:40] just means less supply and the demand's [00:01:43] only growing. That's one big factor. The [00:01:46] other factor is because it's a cash pay [00:01:49] industry, there's really no insurance, [00:01:52] >> right? veterinarians and and you'll read [00:01:55] this in trade magazines, [00:01:57] they build their business on production, [00:02:00] which is basically selling you more [00:02:02] stuff. [00:02:03] >> Yes. [00:02:03] >> So, a third of their revenue is [00:02:05] dependent on you getting a blood exam, [00:02:09] getting X-ray, etc. And I think to be [00:02:12] clear, like the rank and file [00:02:14] veterinarians [00:02:16] are doing this only because they love [00:02:18] pets. I think what's happening is it's [00:02:20] the few business owners and ultimately, [00:02:24] like I said, private equity that are [00:02:26] simply raising prices for something that [00:02:29] you're going to pay for no matter what. [00:02:31] >> Yes. [00:02:32] >> And it's scaring people. We So, at [00:02:35] Dutch, my company, 50% of our customers [00:02:40] say they haven't been to a vet in 3 [00:02:42] years or more. Oh, I bet that's [00:02:44] >> people are scared that the moment they [00:02:46] enter a vets's office, they have a $500 [00:02:49] bill or more, [00:02:50] >> literally. So, can let's just back up [00:02:52] and go through these one by one. So, the [00:02:53] first is private equity. What? So, [00:02:56] private equity buys [00:02:59] the model in general buys small [00:03:01] businesses, independent businesses, [00:03:03] >> links them together for efficiencies, [00:03:06] for cost savings. Right? This is the [00:03:07] idea. This is what they tell you. [00:03:08] >> Yes. So, how many do you have any sense [00:03:12] of how many vets are owned by private [00:03:15] equity now? [00:03:16] >> I think it's like almost it's like a [00:03:19] third to a half probably. [00:03:21] >> Wow. Okay. So, they've been scooping [00:03:22] them up. [00:03:23] >> Oh, massively. In fact, this there's [00:03:25] been there's like two major companies [00:03:28] that are doing it that there was a a [00:03:30] lawsuit uh that they're creating a [00:03:32] monopoly uh that pro that's go that's [00:03:35] that was going around. So they'll go to [00:03:38] owners of of [00:03:40] >> brick and mortar mom and pops. [00:03:41] >> Yeah. Mom and pops. And they'll just [00:03:42] they'll and they're doing this with [00:03:44] dentists as well and HBAC and like [00:03:46] basically every small business in [00:03:47] America [00:03:48] >> and and they'll buy just a whole bunch [00:03:50] of them. [00:03:51] >> Exactly. Yeah. [00:03:52] >> And then become like regional. [00:03:53] >> Yep. And then they'll just raise the [00:03:55] prices. [00:03:56] >> Does the care get better? [00:03:58] >> No. The care gets worse because you're [00:04:01] no longer bringing the they're doing [00:04:04] nothing. I don't want to like say [00:04:06] nothing, but there's really no like [00:04:09] modernization of equipment or faster [00:04:12] care. It's the same thing. They just [00:04:15] literally raise the price. [00:04:18] >> Huh. Um, and when they [00:04:21] >> It sucks. It's like super unfair. [00:04:23] >> I know. Well, I mean, I, you know, I'm [00:04:25] willing to believe there are examples of [00:04:27] private equity doing what it says it [00:04:29] does, which is, you know, to come in and [00:04:30] make the business better. better for its [00:04:33] customers, better for its owners, better [00:04:35] for its employees. I've never seen that. [00:04:37] >> No, it's [00:04:38] >> ever in any sector, but I I believe [00:04:40] there must be some time where that [00:04:42] happened. [00:04:43] >> My old veterinarian, [00:04:45] I switched to and I asked for my um [00:04:49] which is owned by private equity and I [00:04:51] asked for my medical records. It was 50 [00:04:54] pages of PDF with scribble notes. I [00:04:58] mean, there's no way that there's any [00:05:01] you could ever find what's there. So, I [00:05:04] don't believe I've not seen any sort of [00:05:06] better care for pets as a result at all. [00:05:09] >> Yeah. Um, but greater returns for the [00:05:12] investors and private for the [00:05:13] >> Yep. totally. [00:05:15] >> So, um, okay. So, how do they can you be [00:05:18] specific about how they raise the [00:05:20] prices? You suggested there's an [00:05:21] incentive for veterinary offices to [00:05:26] hike the price of annual exams and [00:05:28] shots. [00:05:29] >> Annual exams, but they'll sell you more [00:05:30] stuff, too. So, they'll say, "You know [00:05:32] what? Your dog needs teeth cleaning." [00:05:35] And so, we need to put him under [00:05:37] anesthesia. And that's going to be like [00:05:39] a $5,000 bill for teeth cleaning, which [00:05:43] >> $5,000? [00:05:44] >> Yes. [00:05:45] >> I've had a lot of dogs. Dozens and [00:05:46] dozens of dogs. I've got five at my [00:05:48] house right now. And I don't think I've [00:05:50] ever had a dog's teeth cleaned. [00:05:51] >> Yeah. Exactly. [00:05:52] >> And my dogs live a long time. 14. [00:05:54] >> Exactly. And the thing is, you're there [00:05:57] and you feel horrible because you only [00:05:59] want to do what's best for your pet, but [00:06:02] what happens is they have a list of all [00:06:04] the services they want to sell to you [00:06:07] and that's going to be one of them. Um, [00:06:10] and you feel horrible that you even have [00:06:13] to think about the decision. Of course. [00:06:16] >> But you're and but it's like that's a [00:06:17] lot of money and not I mean most people [00:06:20] don't have $5,000 lying around the [00:06:22] house. [00:06:23] >> Putting your dog under anesthesia is not [00:06:25] a small thing. I mean dogs die. People [00:06:27] die under anesthesia. You're suspending [00:06:29] life in a living thing. [00:06:31] >> Totally. Yeah. So, I think what happens [00:06:33] is it's the list of services that [00:06:35] they'll try to sell you and make you [00:06:38] feel horrible that you don't care about [00:06:40] your dog if you don't buy [00:06:44] from this menu. [00:06:45] >> There's so much emotional leverage. [00:06:48] People are so intense about their [00:06:50] animals. [00:06:50] >> Yes. [00:06:51] >> Not in my house. We have, you know, [00:06:52] critical distance. [laughter] [00:06:54] >> No, but you know, you'd do anything. [00:06:57] You'd sell your car. I mean, I would. [00:07:00] And um so they they have a lot of power [00:07:02] when they're upselling. [00:07:03] >> Yes, totally. [00:07:06] >> Do you it seems like the incentives [00:07:08] would produce like actually bad outcomes [00:07:11] where your dog or cat is getting [00:07:13] treatments they don't need and that [00:07:15] might be counterproductive. [00:07:17] >> Well, I think what happens is people [00:07:18] just stop going to the vet at all. that [00:07:21] I mean that's what we've seen is that [00:07:23] there's just a whole there's tens of [00:07:25] millions of dogs that never go to the [00:07:30] veterinarian at Dutch. 50% don't go to [00:07:34] the vet. Haven't been to the vet in [00:07:35] years and it's because they don't want [00:07:39] to they don't want to feel bad for not [00:07:42] buying extra services for their dog. [00:07:44] >> That's amazing. What about all the shot? [00:07:46] There are a lot of shots and they're [00:07:47] very expensive. [00:07:48] >> Definitely. There's vaccines but even [00:07:50] vaccines like you should I mean as we [00:07:53] have at Dutch try to kind of so tele [00:07:56] medicine can do vaccines but there's [00:07:59] definitely lowerc cost clinics that will [00:08:02] do vaccines for $50 whereas in person [00:08:07] it'll cost you $150 to $200 for the same [00:08:11] thing [00:08:11] >> for a shot. [00:08:12] >> Yes. [00:08:13] >> How why would it cost 200 bucks for a [00:08:15] shot? Well, they'll say, well, I have to [00:08:18] pay for rent and I have to pay for stat. [00:08:20] I mean, they'll say there's like all [00:08:22] this upkeep that that the shot, you [00:08:24] know, includes, [00:08:26] >> but it's bologoney. It's obvious. That [00:08:28] goes back to private equity raising [00:08:30] prices and knowing the people there's [00:08:32] some people who will still pay for it. [00:08:35] >> So, the profile of the vets that I've [00:08:36] dealt with in the past 20 years have [00:08:38] really really changed. It's a female [00:08:40] industry now. [00:08:41] >> Yes. [00:08:41] >> Which I think is good. Just to be [00:08:43] honest, I feel like there really a lot [00:08:44] of dog lovers. Not all you get hard [00:08:47] cases among vets, but most vets I know [00:08:49] just really love animals. [00:08:50] >> Yes, Christmas is here. That means [00:08:52] you're eating a lot. We are. It's a [00:08:55] tough time to get on the scale because [00:08:57] the meals keep coming and so does the [00:08:58] weight gain. But what if there was a way [00:09:00] to eat like you want to eat without [00:09:02] getting really fat over Christmas week? [00:09:05] This is an ongoing concern in my house. [00:09:07] A snack that tastes excellent and is [00:09:09] healthy. Well, it exists. It's called [00:09:12] masa chips. 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Or just click the link in [00:10:01] the video description or scan the QR [00:10:03] code. And if you don't want to order [00:10:05] online, you can also buy masa chips at [00:10:07] your local Sprouts supermarket. Stop by [00:10:09] and pick up a bag. They're awesome. And [00:10:12] so what do they think of all of this? [00:10:15] So what's interesting is that when it [00:10:18] comes to just Dutch and tele medicine, [00:10:21] we get hundreds of applications from [00:10:24] people who want to who want to do tele [00:10:27] medicine. And actually to this point [00:10:28] that it's female tele medicine allows [00:10:31] them to have a work from home flexible [00:10:33] schedule which they love. [00:10:35] >> Yeah. [00:10:36] >> The main industry association the AVMA [00:10:41] has basically made these vets feel that [00:10:44] if they do tele medicine the FBI will [00:10:46] show up at their house. [00:10:47] >> What it has scared them to death from [00:10:50] doing tele medicine [laughter] [00:10:52] to death. And it's because it's again [00:10:54] it's comprised of these self-serving [00:10:57] financially interested individuals who [00:11:00] run the organization [00:11:02] but um they have completely scared [00:11:05] veterinarians from doing tele medicine [00:11:07] whatsoever. [00:11:08] >> Why would the FBI show up at a vets's [00:11:10] house? [laughter] [00:11:12] >> What they'll say and and again like I [00:11:14] think this is why I want your listeners [00:11:16] to know this. It's just so insane. [00:11:19] They will say that [00:11:22] the federal law requires requires you to [00:11:26] have a physical exam no matter what. [00:11:28] Like no matter if it's an opinion, it's [00:11:32] a rash, it's a quick question. They'll [00:11:36] um say that the FDA website requires a [00:11:38] physical exam, which it doesn't. But in [00:11:41] every conference, in every newsletter, [00:11:44] they'll say, "Oh, well, we asked the FDA [00:11:48] and they said that you need a physical [00:11:50] exam, so if you violate this, you might [00:11:54] go to jail." That's what they'll say at [00:11:56] every conference for years now. And [00:11:59] they'll vilify me and Dutch and they'll [00:12:02] say, "This guy is going to hurt your [00:12:05] dog. If there's tele medicine, millions [00:12:08] of dogs will die is the headline. [00:12:11] >> I'm trying to laugh. I mean, that's [00:12:12] >> it's like obviously not true. [00:12:14] >> Emotional blackmail. [00:12:16] >> Yeah. So, one of the main [00:12:19] >> buy this book or we'll shoot this dog. I [00:12:20] mean, it really Yeah. Millions of dogs [00:12:23] would die. [00:12:25] They really say that. [00:12:26] >> Yeah. Well, again, so this is what [00:12:29] they'll say at a conference. [00:12:31] What I've been doing now is I've been [00:12:34] working with the ASPCA and a huge [00:12:37] coalition of shelter [00:12:40] u organizations because they're the ones [00:12:42] that get the brunt of it because now [00:12:45] millions of dogs actually also get [00:12:47] surrendered because their owners can't [00:12:49] care for them [00:12:51] >> because they can't afford vet. [00:12:52] >> Because they can't afford veterary care. [00:12:54] Yes. [00:12:54] >> Come on. [00:12:55] >> I'm telling you. [00:12:56] >> People abandon their dogs. [00:12:58] >> Yes. [00:13:00] Oh man, [00:13:00] >> it I know. It gives me chills. It [00:13:02] sucks. [00:13:03] >> Yeah. [00:13:04] >> Um, [00:13:06] so [00:13:08] the only way this can change is at the [00:13:10] state level [00:13:12] >> and we've been working so in Florida, it [00:13:14] took us four legislative sessions to [00:13:17] allow tele medicine and and all it does [00:13:20] is all the law will say is that the [00:13:22] veterinarian can use their judgment to [00:13:24] make a decision. [00:13:25] >> But may I just ask you a foundational [00:13:27] question? Why is the state involved in [00:13:29] what kind of medical care you give your [00:13:31] dog? [00:13:31] >> Just because healthc care is regulated [00:13:33] at the state level. [00:13:34] >> This is veterary care [00:13:35] >> and that I mean and veterary [00:13:36] >> but you have dominion over your dog. I [00:13:38] mean, right? [00:13:40] >> That's so weird that they feel like some [00:13:43] state legislator feels like he has more [00:13:46] power over your dog who sleeps in your [00:13:49] bed your dog [00:13:52] than you do. Like what is that? [00:13:55] that that's the system we live in. But [00:13:57] actually, I will tell you this. Most [00:14:00] legislators once we tell them that this [00:14:04] is a law that you need to help us with, [00:14:07] they're most of them are completely on [00:14:10] board. They don't they're like, "We have [00:14:12] human healthcare [00:14:14] and this is like a lot of them will say, [00:14:16] I didn't even know this was an like you [00:14:18] said, I didn't even know this was an [00:14:19] issue. This is dumb." [00:14:21] So, where it doesn't work is when the [00:14:26] AVMA or a lot of these state [00:14:29] uh lobby groups who have hundreds of [00:14:31] millions of dollars in annual budgets, [00:14:35] if they've lined a politician's pocket, [00:14:37] then that's where we will have trouble [00:14:40] in those states. [00:14:41] >> Taking money from the veterinary lobby. [00:14:43] >> Yeah, [laughter] [00:14:45] >> there are a lot of dark lobbies. We only [00:14:47] pay attention to a couple of them, but [00:14:49] there are so many. [00:14:50] >> Yeah. [00:14:51] >> So, can you just quickly tell me how [00:14:53] that works? So, the AVMA is the American [00:14:55] Veterinary Medicine Association. [00:14:57] >> Yeah. Medical Association. [00:14:58] >> Medical Association. [00:14:59] What And why do they have an interest in [00:15:02] preventing teleaalth for animals? [00:15:05] >> There's one reason that they'll say and [00:15:08] then there's one reason that they'll say [00:15:09] behind closed doors. So what they'll say [00:15:12] in public is that they'll say tele [00:15:15] medicine is going to is going to harm [00:15:17] dogs lead to millions of dogs dying. But [00:15:21] what they'll say at the hearing behind [00:15:23] closed doors, it's purely financial. [00:15:26] They think that it's an either or choice [00:15:28] that if you have tele medicine, people [00:15:30] will no longer go to the vet and their [00:15:33] brickandmortar business is going to die. [00:15:36] That's not true. [00:15:38] >> Oh, so they're just preserving the [00:15:39] monopoly. Yeah, they're preserve [00:15:41] monopoly. [00:15:41] >> It's just like always, most regulation [00:15:43] exists to preserve existing monopolies. [00:15:45] >> Yes, exactly. [00:15:46] >> That's true in tech. It's true in [00:15:47] manufacturing. It's true in the nicotine [00:15:50] business. It's true in veterinary care. [00:15:52] Wow. [00:15:53] >> I should have known that. Duh. [00:15:56] [laughter] Right. Millions of dogs will [00:15:58] die. [00:15:59] >> Like, who has died? No one. [00:16:01] >> Well, so if people aren't even bringing [00:16:02] their dogs to the vet because it's too [00:16:04] expensive, how is that good? [00:16:06] >> Exactly. Exactly. get dogs are getting [00:16:08] zero care. And you will have these [00:16:11] people say that they will prefer that [00:16:15] than they'll they'll prefer the status [00:16:17] quo. The the industry association will [00:16:20] say they'll prefer the status quo than [00:16:23] allow tele medicine. And by the way, [00:16:25] it's not an eitheror choice. It's not [00:16:27] like, oh, I have a video call [00:16:32] and now I no longer get vaccines at the [00:16:35] vet. you know, like we have again human [00:16:38] health care, [00:16:40] >> we still go to our brick and mortar [00:16:43] annual checkup, whatever. And then if we [00:16:45] have a issue at night, we we don't have [00:16:48] to go. [00:16:49] >> If you got porcupine quills in your [00:16:50] dog's throat or, you know, cuts his leg [00:16:53] on barb wire, you have to go to to a [00:16:55] surgeon. [00:16:55] >> That's right. But if he has a rash that [00:16:58] and you just want to know like is it [00:17:00] like what is this? Why do you have to go [00:17:03] to urgent care when you can just show [00:17:06] again the dogs in the comfort of their [00:17:08] home and you use your phone and show a [00:17:11] video of their paw, [00:17:12] >> right? [00:17:12] >> Like why do you have to drag that in? [00:17:15] >> And that's right. And for example, we [00:17:17] get porcupine quills on our dogs all the [00:17:19] time, a lot. And I wish I could say my [00:17:22] dogs are smart enough not to try and eat [00:17:23] porcupines, but they're not. And every [00:17:26] year I have to take the quills out, [00:17:28] which is takes like four hours. But I do [00:17:32] it myself because well, because I know [00:17:34] how, but also because my dogs don't like [00:17:36] to go to the vet at all. And it smells [00:17:38] like death and they can smell it. [00:17:39] >> Yep. Mine do too. [00:17:40] >> Dogs are euthanized there. They know [00:17:42] that. And um so we do everything we can [00:17:45] to prevent physical visits because it [00:17:48] the dogs are panicked. And I think most [00:17:50] people with dogs know this. Yes. And I [00:17:52] think cats feel the same way. [00:17:54] >> Cats are even worse. Yes, [00:17:55] >> because to corral a cat [laughter] [00:17:58] >> difficult difficult [00:17:59] >> difficult. So anything as someone if you [00:18:02] love animals you want to you want care [00:18:05] for them of course but you want to keep [00:18:07] them out of the physical space if you [00:18:08] can. [00:18:09] >> Yep. They're in the comfort of their [00:18:11] home. [00:18:12] >> Exactly. Um, one of the things we see a [00:18:15] lot is behavior and anxiety cases. And [00:18:19] that's even more so why they should be [00:18:22] treated from home because the dog is in [00:18:25] their natural environment. [00:18:26] >> Exactly. [00:18:27] >> You're only making their situation worse [00:18:30] by forcing them to this place they don't [00:18:33] like. And then a lot of the behavior [00:18:35] modification that happens, tele medicine [00:18:38] is perfect for that because you can have [00:18:41] these regular conversations [00:18:44] and for a fraction of the price. Just to [00:18:47] give you context, by the way, so Dutch, [00:18:50] it's it's a less than $100 for a year of [00:18:53] care. If you went every month, you'd pay [00:18:56] a hundred bucks a month. You'd pay like [00:18:58] over $1,000 to treat your dog. Uh, and [00:19:02] often times when you have anxiety, you [00:19:04] kind of need to have those regular [00:19:06] check-ins. [00:19:08] And we had a story recently of of this [00:19:11] guy who had an aggressive dog. He's been [00:19:13] on Dutch for 2 years and the dog went [00:19:17] from crazy aggressive to now he has two [00:19:21] buddies. Like his life has changed. [00:19:24] >> Yes. And there's no way in the world [00:19:27] this uh owner could have had the money [00:19:30] or the time if Dutch wasn't around to [00:19:34] change this dog's life. [00:19:35] >> Amazing. Yeah. And if you have a dog who [00:19:38] bites, I've had a few. Uh it's very [00:19:41] disruptive. And you know, the dog can [00:19:44] get killed, by the way. You know, dogs [00:19:46] like that either get put down by the [00:19:48] state or can be killed in a fight, [00:19:50] whatever. You don't want that at all. [00:19:52] >> It's a big It's a big problem. Actually, [00:19:54] we're talking about this morning at [00:19:55] breakfast. You don't need to be an [00:19:56] economist to see what's happening. The [00:19:57] dollar is in trouble. It's getting [00:19:59] weaker. It's sad, but we're not in [00:20:01] charge of it. So, we have to respond [00:20:03] appropriately in ways to protect our [00:20:04] families. When paper money dies, it's [00:20:07] going to be replaced by programmable [00:20:09] digital currency or gold. Gold survives. [00:20:12] The same Americans who think they're [00:20:13] protecting themselves with gold are the [00:20:14] ones getting ripped off by big gold [00:20:16] dealers. After we left corporate media, [00:20:17] we got offered tens of millions of [00:20:19] dollars to promote gold companies. How [00:20:20] they get the money to spend that much on [00:20:22] marketing? because they're scamming [00:20:23] their customers. We didn't want anything [00:20:24] to do with that. So, we sought an honest [00:20:26] broker and together we formed a precious [00:20:28] metals company that you can actually [00:20:29] trust. It's called Battalion Metals. At [00:20:31] battalion metals.com, we publish actual [00:20:35] spot prices. We're totally transparent [00:20:37] about the VIG, what we take, and we [00:20:40] treat everyone with honesty. So, if [00:20:42] you've been watching what's happening, [00:20:43] you know, it's not just about money. [00:20:44] It's about sovereignty and holding [00:20:46] something that endures and cannot be [00:20:47] manipulated or taken from you. So, if [00:20:49] you've been waiting for the right time [00:20:50] to act, this is it. visit [00:20:51] battalionals.com. [00:20:55] >> So, how does it work exactly? I don't [00:20:58] understand it the terms. So, it's a [00:21:01] hundred bucks. Like, tell me the how it [00:21:04] works. What's the alternative? [00:21:06] >> So, with Dutch, you go to Dutch.com, you [00:21:09] sign up, it's a membership service, [00:21:12] it's $100 for a year of care. So, for a [00:21:14] year, you can call a vet for up to five [00:21:19] pets. And we have vets available same [00:21:22] day. So, you know, most of appointments, [00:21:26] by the way, are happening at night when [00:21:28] the even if you have a vet, the vets's [00:21:29] closed. [00:21:30] >> Yeah. [00:21:31] >> And so, you have a video call. Most [00:21:33] calls happen on people's phones. [00:21:36] You talk to a a local vet in your state [00:21:39] and they'll, you know, you're talking to [00:21:42] a professional and so they'll diag. [00:21:44] >> You're talking to a veterinarian. [00:21:45] >> Yeah. You're talking to a You'll always [00:21:46] talk to a veterinarian, a human being. [00:21:50] And 90% of the time, and we've been [00:21:52] doing this now for 5 years, 90% of the [00:21:55] time they're able to address the issue [00:21:58] uh over video. [00:22:00] >> Amazing. And so does that include [00:22:04] vaccines or what does that include? [00:22:07] >> It includes the cost. So vaccines you [00:22:09] have to do in person and we'll recommend [00:22:12] a local clinic if that's what you need. [00:22:14] Uh but if you if you need medication, we [00:22:18] have pharmacy partners who can ship that [00:22:19] to you. You can also go to a pharmacy of [00:22:22] your choice. We don't care. [00:22:24] >> Um but it includes kind of any of the [00:22:27] follow-up messages, chats with a vet, so [00:22:29] you don't feel like you're nickel and [00:22:30] dimed if I have another question or if I [00:22:33] have to follow up a week later. [00:22:36] Um the other thing that's cool about [00:22:38] digital first is that everything is [00:22:41] documented. So we know automatically [00:22:45] when we should follow up for each [00:22:47] condition or we know that a veterinarian [00:22:51] needs to respond like we have um goals a [00:22:56] veterary needs to respond within a [00:22:58] matter of hours um back to the patient [00:23:01] if there's a message during the business [00:23:03] day. So we can also like really monitor [00:23:05] quality metrics to make sure that [00:23:08] customers are having a good experience. [00:23:09] >> Is this nationwide? [00:23:11] It's nationwide, but there are about 20 [00:23:16] states that don't allow tele medicine [00:23:20] >> for animals. [00:23:20] >> For animals. Yeah. [00:23:22] >> What? Really? [00:23:24] >> Yep. [00:23:24] >> Because of lobbying by [00:23:26] >> order. Exactly. So that's why [00:23:28] >> big states. [00:23:29] >> Any of the big states. [00:23:32] Um some of the biggest ones like Texas, [00:23:35] which is crazy because California [00:23:38] allows it, but Texas does not. And uh we [00:23:42] actually had a huge bill this year that [00:23:45] literally got killed um by the AVMA and [00:23:49] and it's all because of money. [00:23:51] >> That's wild. [00:23:53] >> Yep. [00:23:54] >> So it's you are not allowed to do So is [00:23:58] there like an underground tellaalth? [00:24:00] Like why don't you just ignore the law [00:24:01] and do it anyway? [00:24:03] Sorry. [00:24:03] >> Kind of. Well, so there's actually on in [00:24:06] Texas there's a a court case that is now [00:24:11] at the Supreme Court where the [00:24:13] veterinarian said, "Well, I'm it's [00:24:15] freedom of speech." Yeah. [00:24:17] >> I'm just like telling people like how [00:24:21] their pets, you know, um this is my [00:24:24] freedom of speech. So, the fifth [00:24:26] circuit, which is Texas, Louisiana, [00:24:29] Missouri, has ruled in his favor, but [00:24:32] the attorney general is has filed this [00:24:36] um as an appeal at the Supreme Court [00:24:38] currently. [00:24:39] >> Seriously? [00:24:40] >> Yeah. What's his name? Greg. [00:24:44] Forget his name. [00:24:45] >> That's so interesting. [00:24:46] >> He's running for Senate. So, right now [00:24:48] it is illegal for anyone in Texas to [00:24:51] call a vet on the phone and just get [00:24:54] healthcare on the phone. [00:24:55] >> Yep. [00:24:58] According to them, now there's always [00:25:00] So, there's two paths in Texas. There's [00:25:05] any state allows e has an emergency [00:25:07] provision if it's a life or death [00:25:09] situation. [00:25:10] And then in Texas again the there's this [00:25:14] fifth circuit decision that's currently [00:25:17] so there's like there's sort of this [00:25:18] competing situation in Texas where on [00:25:20] the one hand the fifth circuit says tele [00:25:23] medicine is allowed but the state [00:25:26] regulations still say that it's not [00:25:28] allowed. I'm pretty sure I could just [00:25:30] call up and get like very serious drugs [00:25:33] prescribed through teleaalth as an adult [00:25:35] like very ser fully addictive [00:25:38] benzoazipines for example you can die [00:25:41] from going off them I mean this is like [00:25:42] way more [00:25:43] >> way more addictive than heroin you can't [00:25:45] die going off heroin you can die going [00:25:47] off Xanax so [00:25:49] >> it's all about the money [00:25:50] >> but that's totally fine to get that from [00:25:52] teleaalth [00:25:53] >> yes [00:25:53] >> or empetamines no problem it's like [00:25:56] tijana you know you get whatever you [00:25:58] want now. But your dog can't get [00:26:00] treatment. Yeah, [00:26:01] >> that's not it's it's definitely unfair. [00:26:05] >> Well, it's deranged. [00:26:07] Um, is that changing? Are you making [00:26:10] progress? [00:26:10] >> We're making good progress. So, we've [00:26:12] changed the laws in Florida, Arizona, [00:26:15] Ohio, in a number of states, and um this [00:26:19] upcoming legislative session, we're [00:26:21] lobbying in 12 different states. But [00:26:24] definitely, there's a lot of states. I'm [00:26:26] sure your listeners live in a lot of [00:26:28] those states. And uh one of the things [00:26:31] we did is we launched this website [00:26:33] called savepuppies.com. [00:26:36] [laughter] [00:26:39] >> And if you go to safeepies.com, [00:26:41] >> I love your marketing. [laughter] Save I [00:26:43] mean, if they're saying millions of dogs [00:26:44] will die, you should, you know, you're [00:26:46] fighting back with safeepies.com. [00:26:48] >> That wasn't taken. [00:26:50] >> I know, right? [laughter] Yeah, it [00:26:51] wasn't taken. And so, you know, you can [00:26:54] go there and uh send a letter to your [00:26:57] local legislator. That's the only way [00:26:59] that things will change is at the [00:27:01] grassroots level because we don't have [00:27:03] the crazy budget that these trade groups [00:27:06] have. [00:27:07] >> Can I ask you what does the AVMA think [00:27:09] of private equity scooping up all the [00:27:12] independent businesses? [00:27:14] >> They're associate I think they're [00:27:16] associated with it. [00:27:17] >> They've got no problem with that. [00:27:20] >> I don't think so. prices going up, [00:27:24] care declining that they're totally fine [00:27:26] with that. [00:27:28] >> They're against options. [00:27:30] >> What? So, I think again there's two [00:27:32] things what they'll say publicly versus [00:27:34] what happens behind closed doors. And [00:27:38] I've read art I mean it's like we live [00:27:41] in two different worlds because what [00:27:44] they'll say is like for example one [00:27:46] reason prices are going up is there's [00:27:49] also massive vet shortages [00:27:51] >> because the veterary profession has one [00:27:53] of the biggest dropout rates Oh yeah of [00:27:56] anyone [00:27:58] >> and they'll say and this is just it's [00:28:01] this is just factually like true if you [00:28:04] follow u BLS Bureau of Labor statistics, [00:28:08] but they'll say there's no shortage or [00:28:10] you'll say no prices are going up and [00:28:13] there's like data that shows that [00:28:16] they'll say no prices are not going up. [00:28:18] So, a lot of times when you talk to [00:28:20] them, [00:28:22] the [00:28:24] surveys they put out make are completely [00:28:27] nonsensical, [00:28:28] >> right? And there's this bottleneck in [00:28:30] veterinary school. [00:28:32] >> Totally. So, that's another thing. the [00:28:34] AVMA [00:28:36] could it's really weird in this industry [00:28:38] and I think I just again I'm here [00:28:40] because like you shine a light on things [00:28:42] and I think a lot of people [00:28:43] >> well I care about this topic because I [00:28:45] think the relationship between people [00:28:47] and animals is just so essential. [00:28:48] >> I know it sucks [00:28:51] what they're doing. So they the AVMA [00:28:55] controls accreditation for veterary [00:28:58] colleges. [00:29:01] Okay. Like this happens in no other like [00:29:04] law schools don't have a trade [00:29:06] association decide like who gets to have [00:29:09] a law school. [00:29:10] >> Yeah. In this industry the AVMA controls [00:29:15] what is deemed a vet school and they [00:29:19] have chokehold that completely. [00:29:23] >> So private equity decides whether you [00:29:24] get to be a vet or not. I mean, in [00:29:26] effect, if private equity is the single [00:29:28] biggest player in this industry, [00:29:31] that's bonkers. Why? [00:29:33] >> I mean, it goes back to money. It goes [00:29:35] back to when you have less supply, you [00:29:39] can charge more and because people are [00:29:42] willing to pay more for it. [00:29:44] >> So, they have an incentive to reduce the [00:29:47] number of new veterinarians coming out [00:29:49] of school every year. [00:29:50] It's like I hate to draw that line, but [00:29:54] I think that's what [00:29:54] >> Well, if it's about money, then it's [00:29:56] supply and demand because that's that's [00:29:57] what the market is. And so the fewer [00:29:59] vets you have, the higher the prices. [00:30:02] >> Yeah. It it like makes [00:30:05] I've you know, again, I'm I think I'm a [00:30:08] curious person and I try to like [00:30:10] understand like could it be something [00:30:12] else? Is there another reason? Like why [00:30:14] would this if you have high attrition, [00:30:17] you have prices going up, you would [00:30:20] think that the way to solve that is to [00:30:22] have more veterinarians, [00:30:24] >> of course. [00:30:26] >> And that's just not what they're doing. [00:30:28] They've like literally I at this point [00:30:30] know several vet schools that have just [00:30:32] stopped development, you know, gave up [00:30:34] because the AVMA basically told them [00:30:37] that they're not going to get a license. [00:30:41] >> I'm not sure. I'm not sure [00:30:43] >> because there are very relatively few [00:30:46] colleges that turn out veterinarians. [00:30:48] >> Oh, there's totally few. Like just think [00:30:51] I can tell you this statistic. There's [00:30:53] about one veterinarian for every 3,000 [00:30:57] pets in America. For context, the ratio [00:31:02] in human healthcare is 1 to 20. [00:31:05] >> No way. the disparity is so huge and the [00:31:10] amount of vet schools is so little. Like [00:31:13] we could we could have a you know dozens [00:31:15] of vet schools pop up and it would still [00:31:18] maybe not be enough in the next decade. [00:31:21] And like I said, this trade organization [00:31:23] is refusing to launch any new schools. [00:31:28] >> Well, I mean that's a cartel that's [00:31:30] cartel behavior. [00:31:31] >> It's very much cartel behavior. And [00:31:33] what's crazy is I feel like then this [00:31:36] gaslighting happens where I'm painted as [00:31:38] the bad guy and they'll say this guy Joe [00:31:42] or Dutch, you know, he's just [00:31:45] self-interested. He just want, you know, [00:31:46] he's the one that wants your money. And [00:31:48] I'm like, how is that possible when I'm [00:31:51] like reducing the cost? [laughter] [00:31:54] >> Like it doesn't make sense. [00:31:55] >> Well, it wasn't that long ago that many [00:31:57] Americans thought they were inherently [00:31:58] safe from the kinds of disasters you [00:32:00] hear about all the time in third world [00:32:01] countries. a total power loss, for [00:32:03] example, or people freezing to death in [00:32:05] their own homes. That could never happen [00:32:07] here. Obviously, it's America. [00:32:10] People are recalculating, unfortunately, [00:32:12] cuz they have no choice. The last few [00:32:14] years have taught us that. Remember when [00:32:16] the power grid in Texas failed in the [00:32:18] dead of winter? Yeah, it happened and it [00:32:21] could happen again. So, the government [00:32:23] is not actually as reliable as you'd [00:32:25] hope they would be. And the truth is, [00:32:27] the future is unforeseeable. And things [00:32:29] do seem to be getting a little squirly. [00:32:32] So if the grid does go down, you need [00:32:34] power you can trust. 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There's like three [00:33:22] buttons. It's very easy and totally [00:33:25] reliable. Highly recommended. We [00:33:27] literally use one. As I said, visit [00:33:29] lastcountriesupply.com [00:33:32] to shop the grid doctor for power you [00:33:35] can trust this winter. Lastount [00:33:38] supply.com. [00:33:39] >> Why did you get into this? [00:33:43] >> Couple reasons. So, prior to Dutch, I [00:33:45] was one of the co-founders of hims and [00:33:47] hers. And so, I helped start that tele [00:33:50] medicine journey. Um, and I would say if [00:33:53] we back it up even more, we'd have to go [00:33:56] back to my experience coming to America [00:34:00] and just always as an immigrant and [00:34:02] having to figure things out when we my [00:34:06] family and I immigrated from the Soviet [00:34:08] Union. [00:34:09] >> Where? [00:34:10] >> Um, to the Bay Area. [00:34:11] >> No, but where in the Soviet Union? from [00:34:13] Usbekistsan. From [00:34:15] >> Usbekiststan, [00:34:16] >> former uh current separate country of [00:34:18] the Soviet. [00:34:18] >> Yeah. But then a Soviet republic. [00:34:20] >> Yep. We [00:34:22] >> What was Usbekistsan like? [00:34:24] >> You know, it's um it's very it's Muslim [00:34:28] majority, but it I would say secular and [00:34:33] um everyone got along I thought quite [00:34:36] well. Um, and we're Jewish. And I [00:34:40] actually didn't even know Jews and [00:34:43] Muslims are supposed to not get along [00:34:45] when I we went to each other's weddings. [00:34:47] There's lots of shared history and [00:34:50] similarity. [00:34:51] >> Um, [00:34:52] >> that's been true. By the way, I just say [00:34:53] factually that has been true in various [00:34:56] parts of the world over time. You know, [00:34:58] not always of course huge problems, but [00:35:00] then other places there are no problems. [00:35:02] >> Mhm. [00:35:02] >> And that was one of them. [00:35:04] >> Yeah. So it was, you know, we [00:35:08] we, you know, I mean, I I I had a good [00:35:11] childhood. [00:35:12] We left everything uh behind because my [00:35:16] dad was uh almost thrown into a labor [00:35:19] camp for having an illegal book, which [00:35:22] is just like a regular I'm sure it's [00:35:24] probably maybe a book on your shelf. [00:35:26] >> What book? [00:35:27] >> It's called Exodus by Leon Urus. [00:35:30] >> No way. Yeah. [00:35:32] >> And it's just a book in the ' 70s. Yeah. [00:35:34] >> Fighting for freedom. I think it's a [00:35:36] concept they didn't want you to know [00:35:37] about. [00:35:38] >> Yeah. [00:35:39] >> And we fled. We fled with I had a [00:35:42] hundred bucks [00:35:44] >> uh and a red suitcase [00:35:46] and we left. Lived in Italy in a refugee [00:35:50] camp for several months. Eventually got [00:35:54] political asylum to come to the United [00:35:56] States and then, you know, lived in [00:35:59] low-income housing for a long time [00:36:02] >> in the Bay Area. in the Bay Area. [00:36:03] >> What was that like? [00:36:05] >> A couple things. First, [00:36:08] my dad definitely told us that we have [00:36:12] to assimilate, that we have to learn the [00:36:15] language. He himself, he was a civil [00:36:18] engineer. And I saw him at first working [00:36:23] flea markets just doing manual labor. [00:36:26] And I think it showed me that he would [00:36:28] do anything for his family to have a [00:36:30] meal on the table. And I think later in [00:36:34] life it showed me, you know, no one's [00:36:36] too good to take out the garbage. [00:36:37] >> That's right. That is exactly right. [00:36:40] >> And uh and just the value of a dollar. I [00:36:43] still I think [00:36:45] >> Yeah. I want to make sure my kids have [00:36:47] that. But I still think and I think back [00:36:49] to this business. I think that's why [00:36:51] when I see things that are so expensive [00:36:54] for people, I feel it in my bones [00:36:57] because I still know what it's like to [00:37:00] not have any money to make difficult [00:37:02] decisions [00:37:04] um when you only have so many dollars [00:37:07] every month. [00:37:09] >> What did your dad wind up doing? [00:37:11] >> He ended up going back to being an [00:37:12] engineer. [00:37:13] >> Wow. He um got trained um education and [00:37:18] then he found a mentor who took him [00:37:20] under his wing um and he became an [00:37:22] engineer again. [00:37:24] >> Amazing. [00:37:24] >> Yep. They [00:37:27] really Yeah. So, in so many ways, they [00:37:29] they inspired me. [00:37:32] And with that said, [00:37:36] there's not much that they knew about [00:37:37] America. And so, I I knew that they [00:37:39] would love me, but a lot of times I had [00:37:42] to figure everything out for myself. I [00:37:45] went to college. I paid for college [00:37:47] myself. And I think all of these things [00:37:51] taught me to be a survivor. Taught me to [00:37:55] make something out of nothing. Um, and [00:37:59] kind of that's that's led me that led me [00:38:01] to hymns and and ultimately that led me [00:38:03] to Dutch. [00:38:05] >> Were were you an animal person? [00:38:07] >> We had animals. So in the Soviet Union, [00:38:10] tons of animals. Um, so I always [00:38:13] definitely grew up with animals. Uh, [00:38:15] German Shepherd, [00:38:17] >> great dogs. [00:38:18] >> Had a black cat. [00:38:20] Um, so we had animals up until I was 10 [00:38:24] and then we lived in apartment in tiny [00:38:26] tiny apartments and so then we got [00:38:30] finally when I had a family and we had a [00:38:32] house we got so that's when we got my a [00:38:35] corgi and that's kind of how it all [00:38:38] happened because I was coming off hymns. [00:38:41] It was starting to be a big company. I [00:38:44] always like smaller companies and when I [00:38:47] can actually still create something. [00:38:50] >> Yes. [00:38:51] >> And then we got a corgi and started to [00:38:54] see the vet bills [00:38:56] and then the kicker was he got into a [00:38:59] trail mix and then we had a $2,000 vet [00:39:03] bill. [00:39:03] >> Trail mix? [00:39:04] >> Yeah. Like trail mix had like couple [00:39:06] M&M's in it. [00:39:07] >> Oh yeah. [00:39:07] >> And they're supposed to eat chocolate. [00:39:08] >> Not supposed to eat M&M's. Yeah. [00:39:10] >> They like them though. [00:39:12] >> Yeah. I like them. [00:39:13] >> It does. Right. [00:39:15] >> And [00:39:16] >> did he get sick? [00:39:17] >> No. But the thing is, and that's the [00:39:19] thing is then I was talking to a [00:39:22] vetinarian friend and he said [00:39:25] like he really didn't have to do he [00:39:27] didn't have to like pump his stomach for [00:39:30] like the three M&M's that he ate. And I [00:39:33] So then that's kind of how I started to [00:39:35] look around like are there any like [00:39:37] could I have done something else? [00:39:39] >> Did Did you pump his stomach? [00:39:40] >> Yes. So, can I just pause and say I love [00:39:43] how even if they're misguided, I love [00:39:45] how devoted dog owners are to their dogs [00:39:48] and cats. I mean, they just like they'll [00:39:50] do anything. [00:39:50] >> Yeah. I'll do anything. [00:39:51] >> Yeah. [00:39:52] >> Yeah. I'll do anything. [00:39:55] and [00:39:56] but it and and so I think that's when I [00:39:58] realized there's really no like other [00:40:01] option when it comes to there's no tele [00:40:03] medicine options that I saw [00:40:05] >> and it and it goes back to that a lot of [00:40:08] times it has to do with the laws but [00:40:11] look I'm the guy who I figured when him [00:40:14] started it was actually a similar [00:40:16] situation [00:40:18] back five years ago tele medicine wasn't [00:40:22] legal on the human side either like we [00:40:24] forget that cuz it's now so common [00:40:26] place, but it was also the same thing. [00:40:28] And I and I helped change those laws [00:40:30] back then. I think that's kind of why [00:40:33] some of these groups are scared of me is [00:40:35] because this guy [laughter] [00:40:37] comes from a place where like he has [00:40:39] nothing to lose. He's only doing I mean [00:40:42] also I think it's because I'm doing the [00:40:43] right thing. I think they don't like [00:40:44] that. And I've done it before. So I [00:40:49] think that kind of gives me more [00:40:52] confidence that I can do it again. [00:40:54] >> Uh and I don't think that's because [00:40:56] before this [00:40:58] >> so be before Dutch came on the scene [00:41:00] what the shelter groups for example that [00:41:04] wanted tele medicine what they were [00:41:05] doing is talking to the state veterary [00:41:08] boards because that's how the that's a [00:41:11] simpler way that this could all change. [00:41:13] If the veterary board at the state they [00:41:16] could just say if you want to do tele [00:41:19] medicine do tele medicine if it's [00:41:20] medically appropriate. [00:41:21] >> Yeah [00:41:22] >> it could be as simple as that. And so [00:41:24] for over 10 years they were having these [00:41:27] conversations and so that's when I got [00:41:30] here and I'm like this is doing nothing [00:41:33] so we got to go the legislative route. [00:41:35] >> It's so revealing however I mean again I [00:41:37] think there probably good people with [00:41:39] good motives up and down the line. There [00:41:40] always are in these systems, but the [00:41:42] system itself is so distorted that they [00:41:45] don't put the welfare of animals as the [00:41:48] top goal. Like that always has to be the [00:41:50] point, right? What's if if you're a [00:41:52] veterinary board, the health of animals, [00:41:55] that's why you exist. [00:41:57] >> Totally. [00:41:57] >> Right. Totally. But it doesn't seem like [00:41:59] they're thinking that way. [00:42:00] >> Well, again, what they'll say is we are [00:42:03] thinking of the pets. We think millions [00:42:05] of dogs will die with tele medicine. [00:42:08] >> How will that happen? [00:42:11] They'll well let me tell you of some of [00:42:14] these examples I've seen they'll say [00:42:17] like I'll say the example I used anxiety [00:42:20] like I'll say isn't that great for tele [00:42:23] medicine the dog is in the comfort of [00:42:24] their home and you can shoot they'll say [00:42:28] well well what if the dog ate a nail you [00:42:30] know if the dog ate a nail I've been in [00:42:32] hearings where this example has happened [00:42:35] >> well well if the dog ate a nail look [00:42:36] maybe he's barking cuz he ate a nail and [00:42:39] and He's in pain cuz he ate a nail. And [00:42:41] so that's why we shouldn't have. It's [00:42:43] like, are there nails around your house? [00:42:45] Like, why [00:42:48] um why are we going to use this crazy [00:42:50] madeup example to deny [00:42:54] millions of dogs from having this [00:42:56] opportunity to use tele medicine? [00:42:58] >> Sure. And if your dog ate a nail, [00:42:59] there's still no good reason why you [00:43:02] shouldn't start with tele medicine. [00:43:03] >> Exactly. Yeah. Have that initial call. [00:43:05] Yeah. Yeah. The vet will walk you [00:43:07] through it and then you'll know, do I go [00:43:09] to ER or not. Exactly. It's not It [00:43:12] doesn't have to be an either or. [00:43:13] >> I We had a family dog at a pin recently. [00:43:17] >> Uh a a needle, you know, a sewing needle [00:43:20] and um [00:43:22] >> you know, obviously that's a brick and [00:43:23] mortar situation. [00:43:24] >> Yes. [00:43:25] >> Um the dog passed it without any [00:43:27] problems, which is kind the the canine [00:43:29] digestive tract is a wonder. [00:43:31] >> Wow. [laughter] That's [00:43:32] >> all kinds of things. mops, pine cones, [00:43:35] sewing needles emerge from it. But um [00:43:39] that it still would have been worth [00:43:41] calling initially. Like why not? [00:43:44] >> Totally. Why not? It takes before Dutch. [00:43:48] Um there's a a poison hotline that's [00:43:52] like $75 just for that first call. [00:43:55] >> Yes. [00:43:56] >> And you don't even know who who you're [00:43:59] going to get. And that's what people do [00:44:01] because again if that's what you need to [00:44:02] do that's what you'll do. [00:44:04] >> But there's definitely ways to talk to a [00:44:07] human being veterinarian very quickly [00:44:11] even that for much less and definitely [00:44:14] much less than having to spend $1,000 in [00:44:18] ER. I had a case where my dog I thought [00:44:21] he was having a seizure and I really I [00:44:25] mean I really freaked out and I got on [00:44:29] Dutch and the vet says he's doing uh [00:44:33] reverse sneezing. [00:44:35] >> Reverse sneezing. [00:44:36] >> Reverse sneezing. I never heard of that [00:44:38] in my life. [00:44:39] >> And she showed me videos of reverse [00:44:42] sneezing and it looked exactly like what [00:44:46] he was going through. And like I said, I [00:44:49] was literally about to grab him, drive [00:44:52] to ER, and she totally calmed me down [00:44:55] and and made me realize it was [00:44:56] completely [00:44:57] >> totally right. That's Oh, what a great [00:44:59] example. We just had a dog We've had a [00:45:02] dog eat marijuana in the park. We had a [00:45:06] dog um eat hallucinogenic mushrooms in [00:45:08] the woods. Totally. The dog has been [00:45:11] tripping ever since. That was four years [00:45:12] ago. The dog is still seeing trails. Um [00:45:15] wonderful dog. woke up with a dog this [00:45:17] morning. Um, but in both cases, [00:45:20] um, there really was no treatment at [00:45:23] all. And in both cases, those dogs were [00:45:25] bundled up and taken to the vet, which [00:45:26] did not I'm not I love the vet. I'm not [00:45:29] against the vet to be clear, but it [00:45:31] didn't help at all because it's just [00:45:34] remedy, [00:45:34] >> right? There's a time and a place for [00:45:36] everything. And I think tele medicine is [00:45:38] just a part of the overall experience. I [00:45:41] don't think anyone's going to say it [00:45:42] needs to replace the and and and it [00:45:45] won't happen because it hasn't happened [00:45:47] in human care, but I think it's another [00:45:49] option for people to get a piece of mind [00:45:53] and to have an option that's way more [00:45:56] affordable and we are seeing so many [00:45:59] dogs like I said being given up or [00:46:02] people who are saying I don't think I [00:46:04] can have a dog in my life. That sucks. [00:46:06] >> Well, that's a tragedy. Especially [00:46:08] people with children need to have dogs. [00:46:10] I think [00:46:11] >> totally it's been yeah for us my kids [00:46:14] our little Eddie the corgi they love him [00:46:18] so much and it's [00:46:20] >> it's the best [00:46:21] >> can I also say it's really good for im [00:46:23] your immune system to be around dogs [00:46:26] >> yeah I think I've seen studies that show [00:46:28] that yeah [00:46:30] >> when our first child who's 31 came home [00:46:32] from the hospital after being born of [00:46:35] our dogs our spananiel jumped up and [00:46:37] licked the dog licked the child in the [00:46:39] mouth [00:46:40] child's never been sick. That's just a [00:46:42] fact. [00:46:42] >> Yeah, I think it definitely I feel like [00:46:44] I've seen stuff that show Yeah. that you [00:46:46] get that immunity. I'm pretty sure. [00:46:48] >> We've always since I was born, we've [00:46:50] always my family's always been committed [00:46:52] to that. Like you got to have a lot of [00:46:53] dogs around and you stay healthy and [00:46:55] everyone's been really healthy. I think [00:46:57] that matters. Um, so again, I feel a [00:47:00] little weird interviewing you because [00:47:03] you've advertised in our show and and [00:47:05] all that, but I just I just felt it so [00:47:07] strongly. I feel like this is such a [00:47:09] good thing and I think there are a lot [00:47:11] of viewers of this who would agree and [00:47:14] so I just it was sincere. I really [00:47:16] >> Thank you. Well, I think when you first [00:47:17] called me [00:47:19] >> it was, hey, I like dogs. This makes [00:47:22] sense. And I think I already I was like, [00:47:25] Tucker's got to know this conspiracy [00:47:28] that's happening [00:47:30] >> because it's such bologoney and it's so [00:47:32] unfair and so few people kind of like I [00:47:36] said know how monopolistic it is. And I [00:47:40] thought that your listeners and you [00:47:43] could help us because I think we're the [00:47:47] Goliath in this fight or the right with [00:47:49] the David in this fight and it needs [00:47:53] people to understand how crazy the [00:47:56] situation is for both for veterinarians [00:48:00] who like I said feel scared to do tele [00:48:02] medicine as well as for pet owners who [00:48:05] can't afford it and it all has to do [00:48:08] with these trade associations who are [00:48:12] keeping and using their monopoly power [00:48:14] to change to keep the laws from [00:48:16] changing. So I think that whole part you [00:48:19] had no idea was going on. [00:48:21] >> I had literally no idea and again for us [00:48:24] at this age you know [00:48:27] I I don't it's the cost is not the main [00:48:30] barrier for us. The barrier is the dogs. [00:48:33] It's just so much suffering for the dogs [00:48:35] >> to go to the vet. And sometimes there's [00:48:37] no choice. And I get it. But if we can [00:48:40] avoid that, we would just be so thankful [00:48:42] to avoid it. [00:48:43] >> And your dogs. [00:48:43] >> So it's dutch.com. [00:48:45] >> Yep. dutch. [00:48:48] >> Well, I'm I'm sure I'll be attacked for [00:48:50] insider dealing, but it's not. I think [00:48:52] you advertised with us no matter what, [00:48:53] but I just wanted you to be able to say [00:48:55] all of that at length, so I'm grateful [00:48:56] that you did. [00:48:57] >> Thank you. Yes, [00:48:58] >> Joe Spectre. Thank you. Thank you. [00:49:01] [music]