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[00:00:02] C-SPAN's America's Book Club programming [00:00:04] is brought to you by the cable, [00:00:06] satellite, and streaming companies that [00:00:09] provide C-SPAN as a public service and [00:00:11] is supported by the Ford Foundation. [00:00:18] From the nation's iconic libraries and [00:00:20] institutions, America's Book Club takes [00:00:23] you on a powerful journey of ideas, [00:00:25] exploring the lives and inspiration of [00:00:28] writers who have defined the country in [00:00:30] conversation with civic leader and [00:00:32] author David Rubenstein. As a young boy [00:00:35] growing up in Baltimore, I went to my [00:00:37] local library and was inspired to read [00:00:39] as many books as I could. Hopefully, [00:00:41] people will enjoy hearing from these [00:00:42] authors and hopefully they'll want to [00:00:44] read more. Now from the historic Decater [00:00:46] House in Washington DC, a former Reagan [00:00:49] administration official and a Library of [00:00:52] Congress, living legend, she has written [00:00:54] a number of books including Out of the [00:00:56] Bario, an unlikely conservative and the [00:00:59] Silver Candlesticks. Linda Chavez. [00:01:05] >> Well, thank you very much for coming. Uh [00:01:08] we're doing this interview today about [00:01:11] some of your books, Linda Chavez. But [00:01:13] Linda is more than an author. She's also [00:01:16] been a government official. We'll talk [00:01:18] about that as well. But we're coming to [00:01:20] you uh from Decatur House. Decatur House [00:01:24] was the first house actually built [00:01:26] around U Lafayette Park or Jackson [00:01:29] Square. It almost was torn down during [00:01:32] the Kennedy administration, but Jackie [00:01:34] Kennedy eventually got it preserved with [00:01:36] the help of President Kennedy, President [00:01:38] Johnson. And uh we are now in I hate to [00:01:42] say it, but we're in where the horse [00:01:44] stables used to be, but uh it's been [00:01:46] cleaned up and it's in very good shape. [00:01:48] So, Linda, thank you very much for [00:01:50] coming here today. [00:01:50] >> Thank you, David. It's a pleasure. [00:01:53] >> So, you have been uh the author of four [00:01:55] books and you've also had a very [00:01:57] distinguished career in public policy [00:01:59] and I'd like to go through that first so [00:02:01] people can understand uh your background [00:02:04] before we go into each of the books. [00:02:06] Okay. [00:02:07] So, uh, where were you born? [00:02:09] >> I was born in Albuquerque, New Mexico. [00:02:12] >> And your parents did what? [00:02:14] >> Well, my dad was a house painter with a [00:02:16] ninth grade education. Uh, my mother was [00:02:20] in retail, but prior to that, she was in [00:02:23] the restaurant business. She was a [00:02:24] waitress. She was a hostess. Uh, worked [00:02:27] a series of jobs. [00:02:28] >> And did you have siblings? [00:02:30] >> I had uh four siblings. However, it was [00:02:33] very chaotic my childhood. My mother had [00:02:36] two sons who she gave up when she moved [00:02:39] to New Mexico to be with my father. Uh I [00:02:42] then also had a sister who was my [00:02:45] father's daughter from his marriage to a [00:02:48] war bride uh an Australian and then a [00:02:52] younger sister who was my full sister, [00:02:54] but all of them either died or were [00:02:56] given up for adoption. So I was spent [00:02:59] most of my life as an only child. [00:03:01] >> Well, I'm an only child. I didn't have [00:03:02] quite as uh colorful a uh family [00:03:05] background as that. I was an only child [00:03:08] as well. There's pluses and minuses to [00:03:10] it as you probably know. So uh where did [00:03:12] you go to school? Did you go to school [00:03:14] in Albuquerque in high school? [00:03:15] >> Well, I went to six different schools in [00:03:18] my first two years. So [00:03:19] >> like any of the first five or [00:03:21] >> Well, as I say, it was a chaotic [00:03:23] childhood. I was shipped around the [00:03:24] country to live with relatives. Uh my [00:03:27] father got into car accidents. We were [00:03:31] quite poor. Uh, and so I shipped around [00:03:35] a lot, but I eventually ended up going [00:03:37] to school in Denver, Colorado. We moved [00:03:40] from Albuquerque to Denver when I was [00:03:42] nine. And I stayed in that school, [00:03:44] Cathedral, uh, both in grade school and [00:03:47] graduated from high school. [00:03:49] >> And you went to college where? [00:03:51] >> I went to college at the University of [00:03:53] Colorado. Started off as a night school [00:03:55] student. I was working uh, in a [00:03:58] department store. and a girlfriend of [00:04:00] mine said she was going to go apply for [00:04:02] college and I went with her and I [00:04:04] thought, well, I'm going to try this, [00:04:06] too. Uh, and I did and ended up in [00:04:09] school and met my husband the first [00:04:11] semester of college and we were married [00:04:14] at the age of 19 a couple years later. [00:04:17] >> Wow. Okay. And did you get your degree? [00:04:19] >> I did. I got my degree in English [00:04:21] literature. Uh, I was not a very good [00:04:24] student in high school. I uh skipped [00:04:26] school a lot, not to go out doing bad [00:04:29] things. I stayed home and read. Uh my [00:04:32] dad had taught me to read as a child uh [00:04:34] before the age of six. And one of my [00:04:37] first memories is getting my library [00:04:39] card. That's the first thing we did when [00:04:41] we got to Denver as I went to the [00:04:42] library to get a library card. So um [00:04:45] ended up, you know, doing quite well in [00:04:47] college and went to graduate school as [00:04:49] well. [00:04:49] >> Why did you pick English literature, not [00:04:51] some other subject? [00:04:53] >> I loved books. I love literature. I It [00:04:55] was my first love. It's actually still [00:04:58] my greatest love is for literature. [00:05:00] >> And so you got your degree and then what [00:05:01] did you do? [00:05:02] >> Uh we came uh to Washington DC in 1972 [00:05:06] and I worked I worked at the Democratic [00:05:09] National Committee. I was actually there [00:05:12] >> a Democratic National Committee. Yes. [00:05:13] You worked for Ronald Reagan later. So [00:05:15] yes. [00:05:15] >> Were you a Democrat for a while? [00:05:17] >> I was a Democrat. I was originally a [00:05:19] Democrat. Worked uh at the DNC. I was [00:05:22] there the day that the Watergate [00:05:23] burglary occurred. I actually ran into [00:05:26] the Watergate burglars when they were [00:05:28] taping up the doors uh there in the [00:05:30] Watergate. And then I went to work on [00:05:32] Capitol Hill. I worked in the judiciary. [00:05:34] >> You saw them taping up the door? [00:05:37] >> Absolutely. [00:05:37] >> What did you think was going on? [00:05:39] >> I didn't know what was going on. I The [00:05:41] man almost knocked me over coming out of [00:05:43] the lady's room and didn't think really [00:05:45] too much about it until I saw his [00:05:47] picture in the newspaper after they were [00:05:50] arrested. [00:05:51] Wow. Okay. So, after you did that, you [00:05:56] left the DNC to do something else. [00:05:58] >> Went to work for the House Judiciary [00:06:00] Committee and there I worked on the [00:06:02] professional staff of the Civil and [00:06:04] Constitutional Rights Subcommittee uh in [00:06:07] the House Judiciary Committee under [00:06:08] Emanuel Cer. [00:06:10] >> Okay. The Democratic [00:06:11] >> Absolutely. [00:06:12] >> side. Okay. And then what did you do? Uh [00:06:15] from there I ended up going to work um I [00:06:17] went to work for the American Federation [00:06:19] of Teachers where I started off as a [00:06:21] lobbyist. Uh and then I became a [00:06:23] magazine editor and that's how I ended [00:06:27] up getting in the Reagan administration. [00:06:29] I met this wonderful woman. She was a [00:06:31] Georgetown professor. Her name was Jean [00:06:33] Kurpatre [00:06:34] and I asked her to write an article for [00:06:37] me. Uh and then I asked a fellow named [00:06:39] Bill Bennett to write an article for me [00:06:41] and another guy named Robert Bourke. So, [00:06:43] I had all of these uh conservatives [00:06:45] writing for me and that's how I came to [00:06:47] the attention of the Reagan [00:06:48] administration. [00:06:49] >> So, Reagan is elected. He defeated my [00:06:51] former boss, Jimmy Carter. He comes into [00:06:53] the Oval Office in January 20th, 1981. [00:06:57] And were you invited into the White [00:06:59] House then? I actually did some [00:07:01] consulting uh for one of the agencies uh [00:07:04] in ' 81, but it was not until 1983 [00:07:08] when I was brought in uh and interviewed [00:07:10] for a job at the US Commission on Civil [00:07:12] Rights and that's my first job in the [00:07:15] >> US Commission on Civil Rights and you [00:07:16] you worked there. [00:07:17] >> I was the executive director, right? [00:07:19] >> And then did you get a job at the White [00:07:20] House? [00:07:21] >> I did. I did. So, um I I don't know. [00:07:25] There were all these people telling me [00:07:26] you should go work in public leaison at [00:07:28] the white house. You know back in 1985 [00:07:31] the top job in the white house for a [00:07:33] woman was director of public leaison. [00:07:35] Women did not fill other highle jobs on [00:07:38] the senior staff. And so I started [00:07:42] lobbying for that job and eventually met [00:07:44] Donald Rean who was the chief of staff. [00:07:48] Uh he was being very annoyed because he [00:07:50] was constantly being pestered to hire [00:07:52] me. And so one day I called him up and I [00:07:54] said, "Can I come in and meet you?" And [00:07:56] he met me and he offered me the job. [00:07:58] >> Okay. So you then became the highest [00:08:00] ranking woman in the Reagan White House. [00:08:02] >> Right. [00:08:02] >> I think it's fair to say you were the [00:08:04] highest ranking Latina at the Reagan [00:08:06] White House. [00:08:06] >> Yes, I was. [00:08:07] >> And were you the highest ranking Latino [00:08:09] of any sex in the Reagan White House? [00:08:12] >> I was. Yeah. [00:08:13] >> Okay. So you did that and you got to [00:08:15] know Ronald Reagan. [00:08:16] >> I did. Uh just absolutely wonderful man. [00:08:20] He was just um so warm and personable. [00:08:24] He was very much as he appeared when you [00:08:27] saw him except that he was very very [00:08:30] smart and very articulate and I think he [00:08:33] was often made fun of uh by Saturday [00:08:35] Night Live and other programs. Um but he [00:08:39] was really really well read. [00:08:41] >> All right. So how long did you work at [00:08:42] the White House? I worked at the White [00:08:44] House for a little over a year and then [00:08:47] a Senate seat opened in Maryland and [00:08:50] folks from the Republican National [00:08:51] Committee came over. By this time I'm a [00:08:54] Republican uh and they thought maybe I [00:08:57] should give it a run. I lived in [00:08:59] Bethesda, Maryland, and they talked me [00:09:01] into uh thinking about running and I [00:09:03] decided to do it. But lo and behold, [00:09:06] after I threw my hat in the ring, so did [00:09:08] 10 other Republicans. So, it was a very [00:09:11] hardfought [00:09:13] uh primary. [00:09:14] >> And what happened? [00:09:15] >> Well, um I ended up getting more than [00:09:18] 70% of the vote primarily because a [00:09:21] local television station decided to do a [00:09:24] pop quiz with all of the candidates, [00:09:26] Democrats and Republicans, and they came [00:09:29] in and asked a series of questions, and [00:09:31] apparently nobody else could answer them [00:09:33] correctly. And so, I became front page [00:09:35] news, not just in the United States, but [00:09:37] around the world. So, you were the [00:09:39] Republican nominee. [00:09:40] >> I became the Republican nominee. [00:09:41] >> And you ran against Barbara Makowski. [00:09:43] >> I did. [00:09:44] >> And she was from Baltimore and a [00:09:46] lifelong Baltimore Democrat and uh she [00:09:48] won. [00:09:49] >> And she won. I was considered a [00:09:51] westerner. Uh which is how the Baltimore [00:09:53] Sun described me when they wrote the [00:09:55] editorial not endorsing me. [00:09:57] >> Well, I'm from Baltimore and I know if [00:09:58] you're west of Baltimore, that's [00:10:00] considered a westerner. [00:10:01] >> Right. Um so, what did you do after you [00:10:03] lost? Uh well after I lost uh I ended up [00:10:07] going to work for an organization called [00:10:10] US English. Uh it was promoting English [00:10:14] as the official language. It was started [00:10:15] by SI Hayakawa, a Japanese American who [00:10:18] had been in the United States Senate. Uh [00:10:21] and that was very controversial. [00:10:24] >> Well, let's talk about that in the [00:10:26] context of your own background because [00:10:28] um you know your name is Chavez. Uh, you [00:10:32] from Albuquerque. I would assume that [00:10:35] you're Hispanic and background, Latino, [00:10:37] but it turns out that if you go back far [00:10:40] enough, your background is a little [00:10:41] different than people might have [00:10:42] thought. What What is your real [00:10:44] background? [00:10:45] >> Well, so my family came here in6001. [00:10:48] Uh, my the Chavez side of the family, [00:10:51] Captain Pedro Danni Chavez, was part of [00:10:54] the expedition that actually founded New [00:10:56] Mexico, founded that territory. Uh the [00:11:00] other side of my family, my grand uh [00:11:03] grandparents uh are miho side and they [00:11:06] are the subject by the way of my book, [00:11:07] The Silver Candlesticks. They didn't get [00:11:10] to New Mexico until 1701, but they left [00:11:13] Spain in 1597. [00:11:16] And they left, lo and behold, not just [00:11:19] to seek adventure and riches in the new [00:11:21] world, but it turns out they were being [00:11:24] investigated by the Inquisition because [00:11:26] they were converso Jews. So for those [00:11:29] not familiar with the term conversos was [00:11:31] a word used to describe people that had [00:11:34] converted from Judaism to uh cathol [00:11:38] Catholicism or other type of [00:11:39] Christianity but Catholicism principally [00:11:42] and that's because in uh Spain there [00:11:44] were uh efforts to get rid of anybody [00:11:47] who was Jewish and in fact on 1492 all [00:11:50] the Jews and all the Muslims were kicked [00:11:52] out of Spain and so many people to [00:11:54] prevent themselves from getting kicked [00:11:56] out would convert convert those as they [00:11:58] are called and your ancestors were among [00:12:00] those. Is that right? [00:12:01] >> That's right. Well, a lot of people [00:12:02] don't understand this, but they were [00:12:04] kicked out, but they were not allowed to [00:12:07] take any of their wealth with them. So, [00:12:10] if you were a peasant, uh didn't have [00:12:12] great riches, you know, you left. If you [00:12:15] were, as my family were a merchants, uh [00:12:18] it was probably in your interest to stay [00:12:20] and convert. So when you were growing [00:12:22] up, did you face discrimination because [00:12:24] you were uh Latino or Hispanic? [00:12:28] >> Well, in New Mexico, Hispanics were the [00:12:30] majority of the population in New Mexico [00:12:32] when I was growing up, but I left at the [00:12:34] age of nine, and suddenly I go from New [00:12:36] Mexico to Colorado where things are [00:12:37] quite different. Uh, Mexican-Americans [00:12:40] were a distinct minority, and you were [00:12:43] presumed to be Mexican, and that's the [00:12:45] what you were called. I had grown up [00:12:48] being told that I was Spanish. And so [00:12:50] that was the first sort of shocker. Uh [00:12:53] but people were always asking me, "What [00:12:55] are you? What are you?" Because I didn't [00:12:57] quite look as they expected a [00:12:59] Mexican-American would look like. I [00:13:01] spoke English as my first and only [00:13:03] language. [00:13:03] >> You speak Spanish? [00:13:04] >> I don't. I I My grandparents spoke [00:13:06] Spanish in order not to be understood [00:13:08] around the kids. Uh but no, I grew up [00:13:11] speaking English. So today, what is the [00:13:14] uh percentage of population in the [00:13:16] United States that's Hispanic or Latino? [00:13:18] >> It's huge. Uh and I think most people [00:13:20] would be surprised. Uh there are 68 [00:13:23] million according to the last count in [00:13:25] 2024 uh Hispanics or Latinos in the US. [00:13:30] One in five Americans has some Hispanic [00:13:33] origin. So some people think that the [00:13:35] greatest minority in terms of size [00:13:37] United States is African-Americans, but [00:13:39] actually Latino or Latino Americans or [00:13:41] Hispanic Americans are actually a larger [00:13:43] percentage of the population. Right. [00:13:44] >> That's exactly right. But it's a little [00:13:46] more complicated than that because many [00:13:48] people are like myself. They're of mixed [00:13:51] origin. My mother's last name was [00:13:53] McKenna. She's blue was blue-eyed and [00:13:55] blondhaired. uh her heritage was English [00:13:58] and Irish and uh that was less common [00:14:03] but it's much more common today. [00:14:04] Intermarriage is very very significant. [00:14:07] >> Let's talk for a moment about the books [00:14:08] you've written because that's what we're [00:14:10] really focused on books. Now you're a [00:14:12] person that's always liked reading and [00:14:14] writing I guess from a early age right? [00:14:16] >> Absolutely. [00:14:17] >> And did you ever um you know think as a [00:14:20] young girl that you were going to be a [00:14:22] author or you just thought you might be [00:14:23] a reader not an author? Uh well, I had [00:14:26] ambitions to be a writer. I had a [00:14:28] teacher, Sister Marie Florence, uh when [00:14:30] I was 13, who wrote on one of my papers, [00:14:34] you have a god-given talent, now use it. [00:14:37] And that was sort of an instruction that [00:14:40] wasn't just, you know, a compliment, [00:14:42] >> right? So your first book is called [00:14:44] Outside the Bario. [00:14:45] >> Out of the bario. [00:14:46] >> Out of the bario. Out of the bario. Now, [00:14:48] what is a bario? [00:14:49] >> A bario is a concentration. and it means [00:14:52] uh you know a city a part of a city in [00:14:54] in Spanish. [00:14:55] >> All right. So what was that book about? [00:14:57] >> That book was about the Hispanic [00:14:59] population. The subtitle was toward a [00:15:01] new politics of Hispanic assimilation. [00:15:04] It was published in 1991 [00:15:06] and I wrote it primarily because there [00:15:09] was a lot of misunderstanding about the [00:15:11] Hispanic population. If you looked at [00:15:14] the statistics in the 1980s, you would [00:15:16] have believed that Hispanics were mostly [00:15:18] uneducated, did not have high school [00:15:21] diplomas, many of them did not speak [00:15:23] English, etc. Well, it turns out it was [00:15:26] confused because there was a huge influx [00:15:29] during the 1980s of newcomers from [00:15:32] Mexico primarily uh as well as people [00:15:36] like myself who traced their origins [00:15:38] back many hundred years or people who [00:15:40] came after the Mexican uh revolution in [00:15:43] 1910. So the general perception that you [00:15:46] were trying to address in the book is [00:15:47] that people let's say white Americans [00:15:50] would say people who are Latino Hispanic [00:15:53] they um are not from well educated [00:15:56] backgrounds they don't have a lot of [00:15:57] money but we need to figure out how to [00:15:59] assimilate them and to make them like [00:16:01] us. [00:16:02] >> Well actually they were assimilating [00:16:05] quite nicely. Thank you. Um [00:16:06] >> but the perception was [00:16:07] >> the perception was they were not [00:16:09] >> right. [00:16:09] >> Uh and [00:16:10] >> and your book is trying to design to say [00:16:12] >> Right. [00:16:12] >> Right. Okay. Go ahead. [00:16:13] >> Yeah. So, my book is trying to explain [00:16:16] that in fact Hispanic immigrants were [00:16:18] doing what every immigrant group has [00:16:20] done. They learn English, they get [00:16:22] educated, and they move into the middle [00:16:24] class, and they do so rather rapidly. Uh [00:16:27] certainly by the third generation, they [00:16:29] are more or less in indistinguishable [00:16:32] from others. [00:16:33] >> So, the Latino or Hispanic population in [00:16:35] the United States today, I assume the [00:16:38] largest number trace their ancestry back [00:16:40] to Mexico. Mhm. [00:16:42] >> What would be second? [00:16:43] >> Uh, well, there's a very large [00:16:45] population now of Central Americans. Um, [00:16:48] there are also Puerto Ricans who are [00:16:52] Americans by birth because Puerto Rico [00:16:54] is a territory of the US. Uh, but you [00:16:57] have Salvadorans, Nicaraguans, and in [00:17:00] the last 10 years or so, we've had a a [00:17:02] large number of people coming from South [00:17:04] America, particularly from Venezuela. [00:17:07] Now in your book you talk about uh the [00:17:10] importance of learning English. [00:17:13] >> Now when I was working in the White [00:17:15] House uh before you and the Carter [00:17:17] administration in those days bilingual [00:17:19] education was uh something that the [00:17:22] Democrats very much supported was if [00:17:25] you're Hispanic, let's say, you're [00:17:26] supposed to learn Spanish as well as [00:17:29] English. Don't learn only English. Uh [00:17:32] today the conventional wisdom is that [00:17:34] maybe that's not as good a thing. Was is [00:17:36] that fair or not? [00:17:36] >> Well, I think the problem was in order [00:17:38] to be bilingual, you have to if Spanish [00:17:41] is your first language, you have to [00:17:42] learn English. And the problem during [00:17:44] the Carter years and and they actually [00:17:46] had a policy to promote Spanish language [00:17:49] instruction. So that a lot of kids who [00:17:50] were coming in as young immigrants or [00:17:53] the children of immigrants were not [00:17:54] learning English when it they went into [00:17:56] school. And ironically, some of these [00:17:58] kids from Mexico weren't Spanish [00:18:00] speakers. They spoke uh indigenous [00:18:02] language. And it was really the LA [00:18:04] school system that forcing them to learn [00:18:06] Spanish. [00:18:07] >> Well, so um if you came, let's say, from [00:18:10] Mexico, let's say in the 1970s, you're a [00:18:12] young child, uh and you speak Spanish [00:18:15] very fluently, were you able to go to [00:18:18] school and get through school only by [00:18:20] speaking Spanish or were they being [00:18:21] forced to learn English as well? [00:18:23] >> You actually in some school districts in [00:18:26] the US could spend almost your entire [00:18:29] school life being instructed in Spanish. [00:18:32] And that's what I had a problem with. [00:18:34] >> You thought that English would be [00:18:36] something they should learn. [00:18:37] >> Well, if you want to move up and into [00:18:39] the middle class, you have to learn [00:18:40] English. That's your key to economic [00:18:42] success. [00:18:44] >> Let's talk about your second book. Your [00:18:46] second book was uh on a different [00:18:48] subject. And why don't you go through [00:18:49] what that was? [00:18:50] >> My second book was uh an unlikely [00:18:53] conservative, the transformation of an [00:18:55] ex- liberal or how I became the most [00:18:58] hated Hispanic in America. the subtitle [00:19:00] was not my choice. Uh my publishers [00:19:03] picked that. Uh and it really it it stem [00:19:06] from uh my having failed to become [00:19:10] Secretary of Labor. I was nominated by [00:19:13] George W. Bush. Uh and my nomination [00:19:16] lasted all of about a week, I think. Uh [00:19:19] before uh it was discovered that 10 [00:19:22] years earlier, I had taken into my home [00:19:25] a woman who was an illegal immigrant. [00:19:28] and I knew she was an illegal immigrant. [00:19:30] Uh I was asked by a friend if I could [00:19:32] give her a place to live, a friend who [00:19:34] knew that I had taken in Vietnamese and [00:19:36] other people who um I helped you know [00:19:39] try to uh to give a helping hand to. And [00:19:43] uh unfortunately back in those that [00:19:46] period uh that was enough to derail my [00:19:49] nomination. [00:19:50] >> So you nomination you were the first um [00:19:54] Latina to be nominated to be a cabinet [00:19:56] secretary. Correct. [00:19:57] >> But it didn't go through because of [00:19:59] that. And that's uh somewhat similar to [00:20:01] what happened to Zoe Barrett, I guess, [00:20:03] to some extent, [00:20:04] >> right? She actually employed a couple [00:20:06] and uh didn't pay taxes on them. I [00:20:08] didn't employ this woman uh but uh and [00:20:12] she eventually went back to Guatemala [00:20:14] and came again as a permanent resident. [00:20:17] >> So, why are you seen as an unpopular [00:20:20] Hispanic? Well, I think it all stems [00:20:23] from the controversy around uh my job at [00:20:26] US English, the idea of promoting [00:20:28] English. And I think there were people [00:20:29] who misunderstood and thought that I was [00:20:31] promoting English only. Uh no, I was [00:20:34] promoting uh promoting English as uh a [00:20:37] way to advance yourself to be able to [00:20:39] move into the middle class. And uh I [00:20:43] also was a Republican and that was [00:20:45] thought to be unusual. Turns out it's [00:20:48] not all that unusual. A third of [00:20:50] Mexican-Americans actually voted for [00:20:52] Richard M. Nixon uh in 1972, but there [00:20:56] wasn't a lot written about that. [00:20:57] >> Well, he was the first uh Republican [00:20:59] candidate, I think, to really appeal to [00:21:01] the Latino or Hispanic uh market. [00:21:04] >> Absolutely. He had something called the [00:21:05] Cabinet Committee for uh opportunity for [00:21:09] Spanish-sp speakaking people. [00:21:11] >> Okay. So, uh, your second book comes out [00:21:13] and it's, uh, let's say a lot of people [00:21:15] criticize it because they think you're [00:21:17] saying we should only learn English if [00:21:19] you're Hispanic and not learn both [00:21:21] languages. Is that right? [00:21:22] >> That's right. And, um, you know, I think [00:21:25] there were a lot of people who didn't [00:21:26] think that I celebrated my Hispanic [00:21:28] heritage, which is not accurate. I was [00:21:30] very aware of my Hispanic uh, heritage [00:21:33] my entire life and very proud of it. [00:21:36] >> Okay. And then you wrote another book, a [00:21:38] third book which is I would say somewhat [00:21:40] critical of the labor unions, would you [00:21:42] say? [00:21:42] >> Right. It was a book about the way in [00:21:44] which public employee unions in [00:21:46] particular I thought had become just [00:21:49] extensions of the Democratic party and I [00:21:51] thought that was both bad for the [00:21:53] Democratic party but most importantly [00:21:55] bad for working people and union [00:21:58] members. [00:21:58] >> But unions went after you for that. They [00:22:00] did and that was probably uh that was [00:22:03] you know after my labor nomination by [00:22:05] that time they were not very happy [00:22:08] >> and that book was called [00:22:10] >> betrayal [00:22:10] >> betrayal and what unions had done to [00:22:13] betray their um workers [00:22:15] >> correct it was mostly about public [00:22:17] employee uh unions which is now the [00:22:19] biggest uh part of the labor movement. [00:22:22] >> Okay. So after you wrote that book you [00:22:24] wrote another book more recently. Is [00:22:26] that right? Now the first three you [00:22:28] wrote were non fiction books and most [00:22:31] non-fiction authors kind of stick with [00:22:33] it because they know how to do it. But [00:22:35] then you wrote a fiction book and was [00:22:38] that harder to do and and did you take a [00:22:40] lot more time working on that than the [00:22:42] non-fiction books? [00:22:43] >> Well, it took a long time to get [00:22:45] published because I was doing a lot of [00:22:47] other uh things at the same time. Uh in [00:22:50] my midnight uh 60s, I decided to go back [00:22:53] to graduate school. I had decided I [00:22:55] wanted to write fiction and I started [00:22:57] writing short stories. I got some of [00:22:59] them published and I decided to go back [00:23:02] and get an MFA uh from George Mason [00:23:05] University. And it was during that [00:23:07] period that I discovered my Jewish roots [00:23:11] because I was featured on the television [00:23:13] program finding your roots and that [00:23:16] story um very much inspired the book. [00:23:20] Uh, and my thesis advisor, Alan Shu, who [00:23:25] uh was at George Mason, uh, he said, [00:23:27] "Don't, you know, I was going to be [00:23:29] writing stories about North Korean [00:23:32] prison camps, which did not have a white [00:23:34] audience, and he said, "No, no, no. You [00:23:36] have to turn your family story." [00:23:37] >> That television show on PBS is hosted by [00:23:40] Skip Gates, a professor at Harvard, [00:23:42] >> and I've never gone on it because he [00:23:44] told me, "We're going to surprise you [00:23:47] and we're going to show you who your [00:23:48] ancestors are and I said, "I'm afraid I [00:23:49] I don't want to learn who my ancestors [00:23:51] are. I'm afraid they're not the kind of [00:23:53] people I want to be associated with." [00:23:54] So, I never went on the show. But you [00:23:56] were willing to go on. And did they [00:23:57] surprise you right then and there alive? [00:23:59] >> Well, I was so arrogant. I didn't think [00:24:01] he was going to be able to find anything [00:24:02] I didn't know because I had grown up on [00:24:04] stories of my, you know, ancestors. One [00:24:06] of my ancestors, you know, gave up [00:24:08] Mexico's territory to the United States. [00:24:10] That's how New Mexico and and other [00:24:13] states became part of the United States. [00:24:15] So, I didn't think they'd find out [00:24:16] anything. But they did ask me, "Do you [00:24:18] have any mysteries?" Well, I had my [00:24:21] grandmother had a plaster saint that she [00:24:24] used to turn to the wall and I was [00:24:27] curious about that. So that I think [00:24:30] sparked their interest and they started [00:24:32] digging around and that's when they came [00:24:33] up with these Inquisition records. [00:24:36] >> So they went all the way back to the [00:24:37] Spanish Inquisition which was in the [00:24:39] 1500s. [00:24:40] >> Correct. [00:24:40] >> And they found out that your ancestors, [00:24:42] at least some of them, were Jewish. [00:24:44] >> That's right. They found out that they [00:24:45] were Jewish. Now, you sort of have to [00:24:47] fast forward a little bit. By this time, [00:24:49] I'm married to a Jewish man. I've [00:24:51] converted to Judaism. My three sons have [00:24:54] all been bar mitzvah. So, it was sort of [00:24:57] like the circle coming around u that it [00:24:59] turned out that I was Jewish after all. [00:25:02] >> Okay. So, but you're Jewish now. [00:25:03] >> Yeah, that's right. [00:25:05] >> Okay. So, let's go back to writing [00:25:07] fiction. Mhm. Um, so when you come up [00:25:09] with fiction uh as an idea, you have to [00:25:11] come up with something creative nobody [00:25:13] ever thought of before and you got to [00:25:15] sell it to a publisher and all that. [00:25:16] What was your idea for the the book? [00:25:20] >> Well, I thought telling the story of [00:25:22] this family and leaving Spain. First of [00:25:24] all, there's not a lot written about the [00:25:26] secret Jews of Spain, the people who [00:25:28] were conversos like my family who didn't [00:25:31] leave in 1492, who stuck around, [00:25:34] practiced Catholicism. Some of them [00:25:36] became devout Catholics and never went [00:25:39] back, but many of them didn't. Many of [00:25:41] them tried to hold on and preserve their [00:25:43] heritage. So I wanted to turn that into [00:25:45] a novel. And that meant doing a lot of [00:25:48] research. I had to spend a lot of time [00:25:50] researching the Spanish Inquisition. I [00:25:53] had to spend time learning about the [00:25:55] conversos. I had to visit Spain. Um I [00:25:58] visited Spain a half dozen times. I was [00:26:01] in Sevilla. I was able to go to the [00:26:03] street where my family lived to the [00:26:05] church where they had been baptized, [00:26:08] married and buried. Uh it was really uh [00:26:11] a lot of work. [00:26:12] >> So for those who don't remember the [00:26:14] history, people may not remember it. U [00:26:16] just saying that in 1492, I think it was [00:26:18] October, you had to leave if you were uh [00:26:21] Muslim or Jewish. Those people that [00:26:24] didn't leave, they conversos, they [00:26:26] converted, but the Spanish uh [00:26:28] Inquisition was saying, "Well, wait a [00:26:30] second. you really are Jewish and you [00:26:32] shouldn't be still here. So the [00:26:33] Inquisition to some extent was to go [00:26:35] after those people and and root them [00:26:37] out. Is that right? [00:26:38] >> Actually, that's exactly right. Uh it [00:26:40] wasn't per se aimed at Jews. It was [00:26:43] aimed at what they called Judaizers, [00:26:46] people who were uh ethnically Jewish and [00:26:50] who had converted to Catholicism [00:26:53] but were practicing their Judaism uh [00:26:56] secretly. And that's that was the story [00:26:59] I wanted to tell. [00:27:00] >> In other words, if you converted but [00:27:02] you're a good Catholic and you don't [00:27:04] show any signs of still being Jewish, [00:27:06] they would leave you alone. [00:27:08] >> Well, maybe not. Uh there's a lot of [00:27:10] controversy about that because one of [00:27:12] the things the church did when it found [00:27:15] out you were Jewish was it confiscated [00:27:17] your wealth. And so there was a lot of [00:27:20] incentive for people to accuse others of [00:27:24] being Judaizers. And it was like a [00:27:27] police state really. [00:27:28] >> All right. So let's go back to the [00:27:30] premise of your book. The premise is [00:27:32] what? And what's the title of the book? [00:27:34] >> The title is The Silver Candlesticks, a [00:27:36] novel of the Spanish Inquisition. [00:27:38] >> What where does that title What's the [00:27:40] Where'd you get the title from? [00:27:41] >> Well, I tried to create a motif that [00:27:43] would run through the book. And I [00:27:45] settled on this idea of silver [00:27:47] candlesticks. The basically the Sabbath [00:27:49] candlesticks that are used at the [00:27:50] Sabbath meal on Friday night. You light [00:27:53] the candles uh before the meal. And the [00:27:57] novel begins with the first auto defay [00:28:00] which is the burning uh of the heretics [00:28:03] they were called uh in Sevilla. And I [00:28:06] create a scene where one of my ancestors [00:28:08] gets caught up in the crowd that is in [00:28:11] the Plaza San Francisco, which is where [00:28:13] they tried uh they lit the fire uh and [00:28:18] took these uh these accused six people [00:28:22] uh three men and three women and [00:28:24] ultimately burned them to death. [00:28:27] >> So if you were part of the Spanish [00:28:29] Inquisition, they have a trial or [00:28:31] something like a trial and then they [00:28:33] found you guilty. the punishment was [00:28:36] burning at the stake or [00:28:37] >> That's That's exactly right. You were [00:28:39] given the chance to basically renounce [00:28:44] uh and if you did that, if you renounced [00:28:46] your Judaism, uh you wouldn't be burned. [00:28:49] You would be uh choked to death, gared [00:28:52] uh to death. So that was that was uh the [00:28:55] nice treatment. And it wasn't the [00:28:57] church. The church could not execute [00:28:59] anybody. They were uh released to the [00:29:02] state. and it was the state that [00:29:04] actually burned them. [00:29:05] >> Well, without giving away the entire [00:29:07] plot, what's the kind of theme of it and [00:29:10] what happens? [00:29:11] >> So, the theme of the book is it's it's a [00:29:13] love story really. It's about a young [00:29:15] woman. She's madly in love with this [00:29:17] nerd dowwell. Um, she finds out she's [00:29:21] Jewish. Uh, her mother tells her she's [00:29:23] Jewish and she's told, "You can't marry [00:29:26] this guy you're interested in. You have [00:29:28] to marry this other person and you have [00:29:31] to marry him." so that he will protect [00:29:33] you because he's from an old Catholic [00:29:36] family. And at that time, what the [00:29:39] church would do is if two people were [00:29:41] getting married, they'd look and see, [00:29:42] are these two old Catholics? Are they [00:29:46] two new Catholics? If you were a new [00:29:47] Catholic, that meant you were both from [00:29:49] uh Jewish origins, and that made you uh [00:29:52] suspect. So, she's told she has to marry [00:29:55] another man. And it's the story of that [00:29:59] relationship. Uh it's the story of the [00:30:03] inquisitor, the grand inquisitor of [00:30:05] Sevilla who tries to entrap this woman. [00:30:08] Uh and how she ultimately learns to love [00:30:12] the man that she's forced to marry and [00:30:14] they end up fleeing to the United [00:30:16] States. And those were my ancestors. So, [00:30:19] when you um tell your husband and your [00:30:22] three uh sons that you're going to uh [00:30:26] Spain to do research for a novel, they [00:30:28] say you've never written a novel before. [00:30:31] You know what you're doing. Is that what [00:30:32] they said? [00:30:33] >> No. My husband is a big fan of my [00:30:35] fiction. He loved my short stories. And [00:30:37] I was very fortunate. I I got all of the [00:30:39] stories that I submitted for [00:30:40] publication, I actually got published. [00:30:42] So, um I you know, I I thought I knew [00:30:46] what I was doing. Did you get a [00:30:47] publisher in advance? Did you have a [00:30:49] publisher? [00:30:49] >> Uh I wrote it. No. Uh I did not for the [00:30:52] novel. I had to find the publisher [00:30:54] afterwards and I ended up going with uh [00:30:56] Wicked Son uh Adam Bellow who is known [00:31:00] not just for being a publisher. He's [00:31:02] also Saul Bellow's son. Um he was good [00:31:05] enough to decide to take a chance on the [00:31:08] book. [00:31:09] >> Okay. So, um, when you're writing [00:31:11] fiction, do you I always wonder when [00:31:13] you're a novelist, do you sit down and [00:31:15] say, "This is how it's going to end." [00:31:17] Um, some people write novels, tell me [00:31:19] they want to know exactly how it's going [00:31:20] to end. They have the outline. They know [00:31:22] exactly how it's going to end. Other [00:31:23] people say, "Look, I'm figure it out as [00:31:25] they get along." Which school are you [00:31:26] in? [00:31:27] >> Well, I'll tell you how I write. So, um, [00:31:29] I got taught when I was uh, in graduate [00:31:32] school that the best way to write [00:31:33] fiction was to write scenes, [00:31:36] particularly if you were writing a [00:31:37] novel. So I immerse myself in the scene. [00:31:40] I create a scene. I created the scene of [00:31:42] the first Otto Defeay and Sevilla. I [00:31:45] create the scene where Guiamar, the [00:31:47] heroine of the novel, learns from her [00:31:49] mother that she's a Jew. And it really [00:31:53] does flow for me. I I find writing [00:31:56] fiction much easier than writing [00:31:58] non-fiction because I immerse myself in [00:32:00] the story. [00:32:01] >> Now, some writers say, "I write uh a [00:32:04] page a day and then I'm done." Some say [00:32:07] I write until I can't keep up uh anymore [00:32:09] during the day. I'll write all day and [00:32:11] then I just start again the next day. [00:32:13] You were in the which category do you [00:32:14] have to write a certain amount each day [00:32:15] or you write as long as you can or what? [00:32:18] >> I would find time to write and then I [00:32:20] would write as much as I can. That could [00:32:22] be as little as you write at night. [00:32:24] >> I mostly write at night. Yes. Mostly I [00:32:26] have a day job so I have [00:32:28] >> Oh, so you have to write at night. So [00:32:29] you write all right when you write it [00:32:31] and then you go look at it the next day. [00:32:33] Do you say this was terrible how did I [00:32:34] write this? or do you always like what [00:32:35] you wrote before? [00:32:37] >> You know, I try not to go back and read [00:32:39] until I finished a chapter. Uh because [00:32:41] I'm, you know, I'm trying to be in the [00:32:43] story. [00:32:44] >> And do you write longhand or by [00:32:46] computer? [00:32:46] >> No, I write by computer. [00:32:48] >> Okay. And you ever push a button and the [00:32:49] thing got erased or anything? That never [00:32:51] happened. [00:32:51] >> Oh, I lost chapters. I pulled my hair [00:32:54] out trying to retrieve chapters. [00:32:56] Eventually, I always found them, but it [00:32:58] was sometimes quite hair racing. [00:33:00] >> Okay. So, when you write this novel, how [00:33:02] long did it take you to write the novel? [00:33:04] It took me almost 10 years. 10 years. [00:33:06] >> 10 years. Yes. To write the book. [00:33:08] >> I mean, [00:33:09] >> Leo Toltoy wrote War in Peace in seven [00:33:11] years. [00:33:12] >> So, [00:33:13] >> I know. Well, what can I It's 400 pages, [00:33:16] David. It's not a short book. [00:33:18] >> All right. Well, [00:33:19] >> and actually, it was longer. It was [00:33:20] longer. I had to cut I had to cut it [00:33:22] some. Yes. [00:33:23] >> Okay. So, uh when it comes out, uh [00:33:26] everybody's excited about it and you [00:33:28] promoted it. And [00:33:30] >> I'm promoting it. I'm still out there uh [00:33:32] trying to sell books and getting myself [00:33:34] on television and other places to talk [00:33:36] about the book. [00:33:37] >> Now, one time I when we started this [00:33:39] series, I interviewed John Gisham and he [00:33:42] said that he was told by I think his [00:33:45] agent that if you're going to be a great [00:33:47] novelist, you got to write one book a [00:33:49] year. Every year, a new book. So, are [00:33:52] you in that school yet? Are you going to [00:33:53] write another one? [00:33:54] >> Well, at my age, I don't know if I'm [00:33:56] going to write another book every year. [00:33:58] Uh, I will tell you you're too young to [00:34:00] be president of the United States. [00:34:01] You're young. [00:34:02] >> Oh, yes. Right. Um, well, I'm a year [00:34:05] younger than our current occupant of the [00:34:07] White House. [00:34:07] >> So, you're the pre younger than the [00:34:09] president. [00:34:09] >> Yes, I'm younger than the president. I I [00:34:11] would like to write a sequel, and I have [00:34:13] it planned. When I originally started [00:34:15] writing the novel, it was going to be a [00:34:17] trilogy. Uh, but I'm not sure that I [00:34:19] will finish all three, so I may combine [00:34:21] the second and third into one. It will [00:34:24] take place after the Army Miho family [00:34:26] ends up in New Mexico. They were part of [00:34:28] the reconquest of New Mexico in 1701. [00:34:31] And it will come into the 20th century [00:34:34] during my grandfather's era. He was the [00:34:36] biggest bootleger in the southwest and [00:34:38] spent 11 and a half years in Fort [00:34:40] Levvenworth. So, [00:34:43] >> okay. So, let me ask you, when you're [00:34:45] writing a book, um, do you ever have any [00:34:48] doubt that you're going to finish the [00:34:49] book? I always wonder when I'm writing [00:34:51] something, I say, geez, I why did I [00:34:52] start this? I don't know if I want to [00:34:53] finish it. Do you ever have that [00:34:54] problem? I think I had more of that [00:34:56] problem with my non-fiction books than [00:34:58] with the fiction. I knew I was going to [00:35:00] finish this book. It was really [00:35:01] important to me. [00:35:02] >> So, you ever have writer's block? You [00:35:04] just sit down there and they just say, [00:35:05] "Today it's just not happening." Never [00:35:07] happened. [00:35:07] >> Never happened in the fiction with [00:35:09] writer's block. The problem I had is I [00:35:12] was doing too many other things. [00:35:14] >> Okay. So, um you're are you writing [00:35:17] articles now still or short stories or [00:35:19] you're just focusing on your novels? [00:35:21] Well, I'm um I do a lot a lot in the [00:35:24] public policy arena. Uh I have a small [00:35:27] think tank that has been around for 30 [00:35:29] years now, the Center for Equal [00:35:31] Opportunity. So, I do that. Uh I do [00:35:33] write I write uh regularly for uh the [00:35:38] Renewed Democracy Initiative has a u a [00:35:41] publication called The Next Move. I [00:35:43] write for the unpopulist uh and I write [00:35:46] for the bull work. It's [00:35:48] >> a lot of writing. So you do that in the [00:35:50] daytime and the novels at night or [00:35:52] >> I'm ostensibly retired from my paid work [00:35:54] so I have a little more time. [00:35:56] >> And so when you're writing a book, do [00:35:58] you ever consult people for ideas or you [00:36:01] come up with the ideas yourself? And you [00:36:02] ever take what you've written and say [00:36:04] ask a friend or your husband or your [00:36:06] children, what do you think of this? [00:36:07] >> Oh, I absolutely ask people to read it. [00:36:10] Uh I I ask experts in the field to read [00:36:12] it. when I was doing short stories on [00:36:15] North Korea, I gave it to people to read [00:36:18] who were experts in that field. [00:36:19] >> Now, for somebody that's watching and [00:36:21] wants to be uh you a writer who's [00:36:25] started writing maybe later in your life [00:36:28] than earlier, but let's suppose somebody [00:36:30] wants to be mid-career starting how to [00:36:32] write a novel or a non-fiction book. [00:36:34] What is your best advice about how to [00:36:36] become a bookw writer? [00:36:38] >> The best way to become a good bookw [00:36:40] writer is to be a good book reader. [00:36:42] Reading is the key to good writing. You [00:36:45] have to be well read. You have to read a [00:36:47] lot and you have to read good books. Not [00:36:50] every book is worth reading. [00:36:52] >> So if you're reading a good book, who do [00:36:54] you like to read? Are there authors, [00:36:55] fiction or non-fiction authors that you [00:36:57] really enjoy? [00:36:58] >> Uh I am a huge fan of Russian [00:37:00] literature. That was because of my [00:37:02] father. His favorite book was Crime and [00:37:05] Punishment by Theodore Dostski. And [00:37:07] Dostki is still my favorite uh writer. I [00:37:10] read a lot of Russian literature. I just [00:37:12] read uh Alexander Solzaniten's Lenin in [00:37:16] Zurich, which was my most recent book. [00:37:19] >> Um well, those books are long and [00:37:21] complicated to read. As I say, I tried [00:37:22] to read War and Peace about 12 times. [00:37:25] I've gotten to, you know, about page 10 [00:37:27] or 11, but it's always I realize there [00:37:29] are 500 characters in War in Peace. I [00:37:32] just couldn't keep them so straight, so [00:37:33] I keep putting it. [00:37:34] >> And every Russian has like four names. [00:37:37] >> I know. So, I I eventually I'll get it [00:37:39] at some point, but I haven't read that [00:37:40] yet. But other than Russian novels, are [00:37:42] there American novelists or writers you [00:37:44] like? [00:37:44] >> Uh, yes. I um I liked John Updike, I [00:37:48] like John Steinbeck, um I I like a lot [00:37:52] of British writers. I'm big fan of [00:37:54] Victorian literature. And uh [00:37:57] >> so if a president of the United States [00:37:58] came along now and said, you know, [00:38:01] you've got a distinguished career, uh [00:38:03] you're a writer, you've been in public [00:38:05] policy, um I'd like to make you an [00:38:07] ambassador or cabinet secretary. What [00:38:09] would you say now? [00:38:10] >> Well, I don't know. I've never been uh [00:38:12] successfully confirmed for any job. I [00:38:14] was nominated by two presidents and [00:38:16] wasn't confirmed in either position. [00:38:18] >> Well, Congress has changed a lot, so you [00:38:20] never know. Um [00:38:22] >> not not for the better. Not for the [00:38:24] better, David. So, uh, today, uh, would [00:38:26] you attribute your interest in [00:38:28] literature and writing to the fact that [00:38:30] you read when you were a young girl and [00:38:32] and your parents read to you and, uh, [00:38:34] and you went to the library a lot? Is [00:38:36] that an important factor? [00:38:37] >> Absolutely. I don't remember my parents [00:38:40] reading to me. My father taught me how [00:38:42] to read and but I, you know, remember [00:38:44] reading on my own. It was my escape. It [00:38:47] was the way I went into a world that was [00:38:50] much better and more interesting than my [00:38:53] own. And did your either of your parents [00:38:55] live to see any of your professional [00:38:57] success? [00:38:57] >> Yes, actually my father uh lived until [00:39:00] 1978 and by that time I had worked very [00:39:03] briefly for President Carter uh worked [00:39:06] at OM and uh worked at the uh health and [00:39:10] human services uh which was then health [00:39:12] and education and welfare. Uh my mother [00:39:15] lived until uh 2012 so she saw uh much [00:39:19] of my success. And do you uh ever think [00:39:23] about teaching writing and teaching uh [00:39:25] people? You've taken wr writing courses [00:39:26] yourself. Would you ever consider [00:39:28] teaching writing? [00:39:29] >> I actually taught uh I taught at [00:39:31] University of Colorado and UCLA. I [00:39:33] taught in the first affirmative action [00:39:34] programs there. It was a very [00:39:36] eye-opening experience and formed my [00:39:38] views of becoming a critic of [00:39:40] affirmative action. [00:39:41] >> Let's go back to the uh issue of [00:39:43] affirmative action which you know a lot [00:39:45] about. Um today the Supreme Court has [00:39:47] more or less said that affirmative [00:39:48] action certainly in education is not uh [00:39:51] permissible. Um do you think that's uh [00:39:53] changed uh universities for the good or [00:39:56] the bad or what's your assessment of [00:39:58] that? [00:39:58] >> I very much believe it's changed [00:40:00] universities for the good and it's not [00:40:03] just that it has taken out impermissible [00:40:06] discrimination. I think it's been really [00:40:08] good for Latino and black students. Uh [00:40:11] my organization has done studies over [00:40:13] the years taking a look at the admission [00:40:15] of students uh into uh university who [00:40:19] did not meet the normal qualifications. [00:40:21] And what we found over 80 different [00:40:24] universities was that admitting a [00:40:27] student whose grades and test scores [00:40:29] were not similar to those of his white [00:40:32] and Asian peers meant the student was [00:40:35] more likely to fail. And so now you've [00:40:37] got students, they may not be going to [00:40:40] the top tier school in as great as [00:40:42] number, but they're going to schools [00:40:44] where their preparation allows them to [00:40:47] succeed. [00:40:48] >> Now, there have been some people in the [00:40:50] United States who want to have a [00:40:51] constitutional amendment making English [00:40:54] our official language. Do you think [00:40:55] that's a good idea or not necessary? [00:40:58] >> I don't think it would do much harm to [00:41:00] make it an official language. Many [00:41:02] countries have official languages, but [00:41:04] the practical matter is that English has [00:41:07] been our de facto official language [00:41:10] almost from the beginning. And that no [00:41:13] matter where people came from, what [00:41:15] country they spoke when they got here, [00:41:16] they eventually learned English. [00:41:18] >> So, um, today when you write a novel and [00:41:21] people come up to you and they say they [00:41:23] enjoy the novel, that must be a great [00:41:25] thrill, I assume. [00:41:26] >> Absolutely. It's there's nothing nicer [00:41:28] than people who can come up and not just [00:41:30] tell me they like the novel, but start [00:41:32] to talk to me about the characters. They [00:41:34] talk to me as if they're real people, [00:41:36] which yes, they are based on real [00:41:38] people, but they're, you know, figments [00:41:40] of my imagination. [00:41:41] >> And are you surprised at how many people [00:41:43] think you are um person who was born in [00:41:46] let's say Mexico and came up to the [00:41:48] United States and when you're young and [00:41:50] so forth and you tell them that actually [00:41:52] my ancestors were here for three or 4 [00:41:54] hundred years, what do they say? Yeah, [00:41:56] people are always surprised that that [00:41:57] used to be very common. People would [00:41:59] say, "When did your family come here, [00:42:00] Miss Chavez?" And when I said, that was [00:42:03] usually a conversation stopper. [00:42:06] >> Wow. So, uh, your ancestors, as they [00:42:09] were discovered by Skip Gates and his [00:42:11] people, what did they do in Spain? Were [00:42:14] they prominent people or [00:42:15] >> They were merchants. Uh, and yes, uh, [00:42:17] they were wealthy. Uh, unfortunately, [00:42:20] none of that wealth uh, saw its way down [00:42:22] to me. By the time my father uh was [00:42:24] growing up, they were desperately poor [00:42:26] and I grew up struggling. [00:42:29] >> Your parents had no idea that they had [00:42:31] this kind of roots though, I assume. [00:42:33] >> No, they did not. I mean, my my father [00:42:35] knew about the Spanish history in New [00:42:38] Mexico because it was, you know, passed [00:42:40] down generation to generation. But, as I [00:42:42] say, his dad spent most of his childhood [00:42:45] in federal prison because of the [00:42:46] Prohibition Act. And so um it didn't [00:42:49] much matter that his ancestors were [00:42:51] wellto-do 400 years earlier. [00:42:54] >> So how has artificial intelligence [00:42:56] change the way people write books? Now [00:42:58] if you need to do research you can do it [00:43:00] very quickly on chat GBT or some other [00:43:03] artificial intelligence. Is that [00:43:04] something you use when you're doing [00:43:05] research? [00:43:06] >> I have to tell you I'm very um [00:43:08] skeptical. Uh I actually fed my first my [00:43:12] preface to my book into artificial [00:43:14] intelligence to see what it would turn [00:43:16] it. [00:43:16] it made it much worse. So, I didn't in [00:43:20] any way use any of it. And I'm always [00:43:23] skeptical even of the research. I always [00:43:25] trust but verify. Uh, as my old boss [00:43:28] would say, I always want to check out [00:43:30] when I'm told something in an AI answer, [00:43:33] I try to dig a little deeper to make [00:43:35] sure it's really correct. [00:43:36] >> So, when you go to Spain and say, "I'm [00:43:38] researching a novel." Do people say, [00:43:40] "Look, I'm busy. I got a job. I don't [00:43:41] have time to help somebody research a [00:43:43] novel." Or do they say, "Oh, here I have [00:43:44] nothing better to do. help you? [00:43:46] >> Well, I wasn't going to Spain so much to [00:43:48] research the novel. I was going to Spain [00:43:51] to get the sights and sounds and smells [00:43:54] and tastes, you know, right? I wanted to [00:43:57] have the right atmosphere. Much of the [00:43:59] book is written, I hope, to try to give [00:44:01] you a sense of Spain in the 16th [00:44:04] century. And so, I'm going to places [00:44:08] that are old places. As I say, I went to [00:44:10] the church where my family were [00:44:12] baptized, where my uh grandmother, who [00:44:15] opens the book, uh is actually buried in [00:44:17] the crypt uh in Santa Ana in Triana, the [00:44:21] neighborhood of Triana in Sevilla. [00:44:24] >> So, um today, uh without again giving [00:44:27] away the whole plotline, is it a happy [00:44:30] ending to your novel? [00:44:31] >> Well, I'm here, so they obviously uh [00:44:33] they obviously got out. [00:44:35] >> Okay. And so what is the the theme going [00:44:38] to be of your second novel? [00:44:40] >> Well, the theme is really going to be [00:44:42] what happened in New Mexico. I mean, it [00:44:45] was a really amazing story and you know, [00:44:47] it it ultimately New Mexico becomes part [00:44:50] of the United States, but uh [00:44:52] >> because the Mexicans gave it to us [00:44:54] >> that well uh with a war uh and you know [00:44:57] the the story in my family is that my uh [00:45:01] great great uncle, he was my great great [00:45:03] grandfather's brother from Uh my [00:45:06] grandfather was Francisco Army Miho. [00:45:08] Manuel Armyho was the last territorial [00:45:10] governor of New Mexico and uh he turned [00:45:13] over the territory without much of a [00:45:15] fight. [00:45:17] >> Okay. So today, so the story of your uh [00:45:20] second novel is going to be how New [00:45:22] Mexico was more or less settled. [00:45:24] >> Yes. It was it's going to be about uh [00:45:27] New Mexico, Santa Fe, the families, and [00:45:30] what happened to those families because [00:45:32] it's not unusual for great families with [00:45:36] with lots of wealth to basically end up [00:45:39] losing all of that. So, it's going to be [00:45:41] about the downward trajectory uh of my [00:45:44] family uh ending up with my grandfather [00:45:47] in prison and and my father struggling [00:45:49] through the depression. today. How do [00:45:52] you do you prefer to be called a Latina, [00:45:55] Latino, Hispanic or an American and none [00:45:58] of the Hispanic Latino? [00:46:00] >> Well, my mother um would always tell me [00:46:02] when people ask you what you are, you [00:46:04] tell them you're American. So, I'm first [00:46:06] and foremost an American, but I'm very [00:46:08] proud of my Hispanic heritage. And I do [00:46:11] think of myself more as an Hispanic than [00:46:13] a Latina. U but I don't care really what [00:46:16] you call me. [00:46:17] >> So, you work in the White House for [00:46:18] Ronald Reagan. Um, did people really [00:46:21] know much about uh what Latina was then [00:46:24] or Latino or did they uh really give you [00:46:27] the kind of uh um treatment and respect [00:46:30] that you thought you deserved as working [00:46:32] in the White House where people had said [00:46:33] she's just a liaison to the Hispanic [00:46:35] community? [00:46:35] >> Well, I was a leazison to the business [00:46:37] community, a leaison to all of the [00:46:39] groups. I was head of public liaison. I, [00:46:41] you know, dealt with a veterans group, [00:46:43] business, uh, colleges, universities, [00:46:46] all of the [00:46:46] >> leazison means your job is to when [00:46:48] somebody complains, your job is to say [00:46:50] it's not as bad as you think and it's [00:46:51] really better, something like that. [00:46:53] >> It was to introduce people into the [00:46:55] White House to meet with the president [00:46:57] or with appointees. And when the [00:46:59] president went out, I would often go out [00:47:01] with him. I traveled with him in various [00:47:03] places. [00:47:03] >> And what was he really like? I didn't I [00:47:05] never met him but but was he as jovial [00:47:08] as he always seemed to be smiling and [00:47:10] >> you know um he was a vunkular he uh he [00:47:14] did have this wonderful uh personality [00:47:16] loved to tell stories a lot of them were [00:47:19] stories uh about [00:47:21] >> over and over again some people Jim [00:47:22] Baker used to say he would tell some of [00:47:23] the same stories over and over again. [00:47:25] >> Yes he would sometimes tell the same [00:47:27] story. I can remember being on Air Force [00:47:29] One and he came back and I was seated [00:47:31] with the press corps and he came back [00:47:32] and he said, "Now, Linda, cover your [00:47:34] ears. I don't think you want to hear [00:47:36] this story." And I don't know what the [00:47:38] story was because I think it was [00:47:39] probably a little off color. Uh, but he [00:47:42] was just a wonderful man. Uh, once I was [00:47:45] getting beat up a lot in the press when [00:47:47] I was at the Civil Rights Commission. It [00:47:48] was a Saturday morning. I was in bed. [00:47:50] The telephone rings. It's the White [00:47:53] House signal office. They had President [00:47:55] Reagan on the phone for me. He was on [00:47:58] the treadmill, but he was watching me on [00:48:01] C-SPAN [00:48:03] >> and um he wanted to tell me what a good [00:48:05] job I was doing. That's the kind of guy [00:48:07] he was. Was a wonderful man. [00:48:09] >> So when Reagan uh was getting ready to [00:48:11] be sworn in, uh he and Jimmy Carter [00:48:14] wrote up as most presidents do uh [00:48:17] together. Sometimes they don't talk to [00:48:18] each other. I think Truman and [00:48:19] Eisenhower didn't talk. FDR and Hoover [00:48:22] didn't talk but they were having a [00:48:24] conversation Reagan being Jovio and [00:48:25] Carter uh was listening and after it was [00:48:28] over um somebody went to Carter and said [00:48:31] well what was he talking about and he [00:48:33] said I don't know he kept talking about [00:48:35] this guy Jack Warner who is Jack Warner [00:48:37] Jack Warner being the head of a studio [00:48:39] that that I Reagan had worked for but [00:48:40] Carter didn't know anything about studio [00:48:42] heads and he couldn't understand who [00:48:43] Jack Warner was but Reagan liked to talk [00:48:45] about the movie days right [00:48:47] >> he did like to talk about the movie days [00:48:49] I rode in the limousine When I was [00:48:50] running for Senate with President [00:48:52] Reagan, my husband and I rode with him [00:48:54] and it was in Baltimore and there were [00:48:57] people lining the streets and president [00:48:59] looked out and he said, "Now take a [00:49:01] look. There's a group of women there. [00:49:04] When they see me, they're going to start [00:49:06] jumping. They're going to levitate off." [00:49:09] And sure enough, that's what happened. [00:49:10] It was just the funniest thing I had [00:49:12] ever seen. So when Reagan was president [00:49:14] early on um there was something that the [00:49:16] Hollywood studios wanted to get [00:49:18] something related to fin Finn sin rule [00:49:21] and uh the Hollywood studios weren't [00:49:22] getting what they wanted out of the FCC. [00:49:25] So eventually I think Jack Valente who [00:49:27] was then uh the head of the Motion [00:49:28] Picture Association lobby got all the [00:49:30] studio heads all of them to come to [00:49:32] Washington and they come to the Oval [00:49:34] Office. Reagan is outside uh somewhere [00:49:37] else. He comes back and he sees all the [00:49:39] studio heads there and he says, "My god, [00:49:40] if I could have gotten a meeting with [00:49:42] any of you when I was an actor, I [00:49:43] wouldn't be in in in public policy. I [00:49:45] never could get a meeting with any of [00:49:46] you guys." But he had a good sense of [00:49:48] humor. I guess [00:49:48] >> he did. He had a great sense of humor. [00:49:50] He was he was really genuinely a good [00:49:52] person. Um I just was always impressed [00:49:55] with how he would not not just tell [00:49:58] stories, he liked to listen to stories [00:50:01] and he took care of people and I and uh [00:50:03] he cared about America. So, was that [00:50:06] hair dyed or not? [00:50:07] >> You know, he had a few white hairs in [00:50:10] there. He really did. You could see them [00:50:12] up close. Not many. Uh I don't I don't [00:50:15] know. I I every once in a while you [00:50:18] could look real close, you could see [00:50:20] one. [00:50:20] >> Great set of hair, but I don't know if [00:50:21] it was D. [00:50:22] >> He had a full head of hair. That was [00:50:24] very true. [00:50:25] >> And people forget that he left the [00:50:27] presidency uh when he was uh 77, I think [00:50:31] it was. So he wasn't We've had two the [00:50:33] current president and the previous [00:50:34] president were both older than him. [00:50:35] Reagan was considered old at that time [00:50:37] but actually today not as old. And and [00:50:40] he ever talked to you about what it was [00:50:42] like to ride horses. That was one of his [00:50:43] great loves as well. [00:50:45] >> No. I would love to have gone out to the [00:50:47] ranch. That was one of the trips I [00:50:49] wasn't able to make. [00:50:51] >> And today if you had to look your life [00:50:53] all over again, what would you do [00:50:55] differently? Anything different in your [00:50:56] life? You're happy, got a very [00:50:58] successful career, good family, and so [00:51:00] forth. Is there anything you would have [00:51:01] done differently? [00:51:02] >> I would have started writing fiction [00:51:04] earlier. Um, I think I was always a [00:51:06] little afraid to do it. It's very [00:51:08] competitive. I wasn't sure I was good [00:51:10] enough to do it. Uh, I I think I would [00:51:12] have started writing fiction sooner. [00:51:15] >> Well, you still got a long time to write [00:51:16] a lot of fiction. So, are you going to [00:51:18] write any more non-fiction? [00:51:19] >> Um, most of my non-fiction is going to [00:51:22] be short. I'm going to continue to write [00:51:24] op-eds. Uh, I'm very interested in lots [00:51:27] of public issues. Uh I uh you know I [00:51:31] continue to be issu interested in race. [00:51:34] Uh I continue to be interested in [00:51:36] foreign policy. Uh and I continue to be [00:51:39] interested in immigration. [00:51:41] >> Well to get those issues uh in front of [00:51:43] you is the best thing you do watching [00:51:45] C-SPAN. [00:51:46] >> Yes. It is very good. [00:51:49] >> So you watch C-SPAN to learn whatever [00:51:50] you want to learn about public policy. [00:51:52] Right. [00:51:52] >> That's right. Well it it it's first of [00:51:54] all no commercial breaks. That's, you [00:51:56] know, uh, unless you're watching it on [00:51:58] streaming and then you do get commercial [00:52:00] breaks, I found. [00:52:01] >> Okay. So, when will your next novel be [00:52:03] out? [00:52:04] >> Well, I hope it's not going to take me [00:52:06] 10 years because I'll be almost 90 if [00:52:09] that's the case. So, um, I would like to [00:52:12] spend the next year trying to get it [00:52:14] done. [00:52:14] >> And you have a title yet for it? [00:52:16] >> No, I don't have a title yet. I'm not [00:52:18] good at titles, frankly. [00:52:19] >> And who did you dedicate your novel to? [00:52:22] I dedicated it to my two grandparents, [00:52:25] both of whom were distend descendants of [00:52:28] the people in the novel. They were both [00:52:30] descended from the Armyo family, Petra [00:52:33] Armyo de Chavez and Ambrosio Chavez de [00:52:37] Armoiho. [00:52:38] >> Well, look, it's a very interesting [00:52:40] career and very impressive and um I I [00:52:44] really enjoyed talking with you and you [00:52:45] and I both worked in government. Uh we [00:52:48] both done some writing. I haven't [00:52:49] written any novels yet, but uh maybe [00:52:52] you've inspired me to try to do that. [00:52:53] It's not that easy to do, right? [00:52:54] >> No, it's not that easy. [00:52:55] >> So, thank you very much for being here. [00:52:57] I enjoyed it. [00:52:58] >> Thank you. [00:53:05] >> After the interview, David Rubenstein [00:53:07] and Linda Chavez viewed memorabilia from [00:53:09] her career in public service. [00:53:12] >> So, this is the Decater House. [00:53:15] >> Yes, you're probably familiar with it. [00:53:17] >> Yes, I am. And uh I guess this was the [00:53:19] first real house built around what's now [00:53:21] called Lafayette Park or Jackson Square. [00:53:26] >> And this is the Reagan china that was [00:53:29] very controversial. You may recall. [00:53:31] >> I do remember that. Um Nancy Reagan [00:53:34] ordered it, I think. And it was New [00:53:35] China and uh [00:53:37] >> caused quite a scandal that then it was [00:53:40] paid for, I believe, privately. [00:53:43] >> It was. Yes. But uh still a scandal in [00:53:46] those days. Yes. It's funny how things [00:53:49] change. [00:53:50] >> So, uh let's see. There's you with [00:53:53] Ronald Reagan. [00:53:54] >> Yep. That in the in the background. [00:53:56] That's uh actually that was the first [00:53:58] time I met President Reagan. That was at [00:54:01] a reception for a bunch of former [00:54:03] Democrats who had either joined his [00:54:06] administration or supported him. And [00:54:08] Phil Graham is standing there. [00:54:10] >> They were called Reagan Democrats. [00:54:12] >> Reagan Democrats. And that's what I was [00:54:14] at the time. [00:54:14] >> Okay. [00:54:15] This is the uh White House uh Christmas [00:54:18] party. My one and only Christmas party [00:54:22] since I was only in the Reagan White [00:54:23] House for a year. [00:54:26] >> And uh there you are. [00:54:28] >> There I am. [00:54:31] So, uh that's President Reagan when I [00:54:35] ran for the US Senate for Maryland. I [00:54:37] was the Republican nominee right [00:54:39] >> in 1986. and he came up and supported me [00:54:43] and uh that was a a great time. [00:54:46] >> That is George, right? And that was just [00:54:50] before I left the White House when I was [00:54:52] >> I left the White House to run for the US [00:54:54] Senate. [00:54:55] >> And this is Bill Clinton and Al Gore. [00:54:58] >> That's right. And that was uh right [00:55:01] after a Supreme Court decision had come [00:55:04] down that was quite critical of [00:55:05] affirmative action in contracting. And [00:55:09] Bill Clinton said he wanted to mend [00:55:12] affirmative action, not end it. And he [00:55:14] invited me to the White House along with [00:55:16] a handful of other conservatives and we [00:55:19] met with him and gave him what we [00:55:22] thought was a way to mend it. [00:55:25] >> Fortunately, he didn't take us up on it. [00:55:26] >> No. [00:55:28] >> That was when I was sworn in to the US [00:55:30] Commission on Civil Rights. And it's a [00:55:32] pretty unusual swearing in. It's Warren [00:55:34] Burer who was Chief Justice at the time. [00:55:38] And I was invited over, much to my [00:55:40] surprise, um, invited over to meet him [00:55:43] and to have him swear me in. It was [00:55:45] pretty lowly office to be sworn in by [00:55:47] the Chief Justice of the United States. [00:55:50] >> Oh, well, sure. I was happy to do it. [00:55:52] And these are your books. You have [00:55:54] >> these are are my books and and some of [00:55:56] the work I've done with my uh, Center [00:55:58] for Equal Opportunity. So, that was my [00:56:00] first book out of the bario, which is [00:56:02] about Hispanic assimilation, [00:56:04] >> right? An unlikely conservative was my [00:56:07] memoir after President uh George W. Bush [00:56:11] tried to make me secretary of labor. [00:56:13] That didn't work out. And then there's a [00:56:15] book about uh the labor unions and their [00:56:18] political [00:56:20] and that is [00:56:21] >> then you have your new book. [00:56:22] >> And I have my new book. Yes, my new book [00:56:24] which is uh this the silver [00:56:27] candlesticks. I don't see it here but [00:56:29] yes I have that. And those are I was [00:56:33] very involved in trying to reform [00:56:35] bilingual education so that kids who [00:56:37] didn't speak English learned English. [00:56:40] And so that's some of that as well. [00:56:43] >> Watch past episodes of America's Book [00:56:46] Club at c-span.org/ABC [00:56:49] and C-SPAN's YouTube page. [00:57:11] Heat. Heat.