📄 Extracted Text (18,307 words)
[00:00:00] There's something about true things that
[00:00:03] just sound different. When you hear
[00:00:06] something that's true, there's a
[00:00:08] different pitch or tone or vibration.
[00:00:12] It's kind of hard to describe, but when
[00:00:14] someone says something true, even if you
[00:00:16] don't exactly understand what it means,
[00:00:18] it sticks with you. The truth rings
[00:00:22] differently from lies.
[00:00:25] And recently, for a lot of different
[00:00:28] reasons, mostly because of the pressure
[00:00:30] being exerted on our society, you're
[00:00:32] hearing a lot of lies, but you're also
[00:00:33] hearing a lot of true things. And some
[00:00:35] of them are about the nation of Israel.
[00:00:39] And they're obvious things, like, does
[00:00:41] the United States have an actual
[00:00:43] interest in supporting Israel
[00:00:45] unequivocally? Is Israel really our
[00:00:47] closest ally? Is there a good reason for
[00:00:50] this? Why are so many members of
[00:00:52] Congress taking money from a foreign
[00:00:54] government lobby, etc., etc., etc. These
[00:00:57] are all true things. They point to the
[00:01:00] truth. They are questions that evoke
[00:01:03] true answers.
[00:01:06] And the response to this has been very,
[00:01:09] very telling. The response has been
[00:01:12] shouting and screaming accusations.
[00:01:17] It has not been engagement. Almost
[00:01:19] nobody on the other side of the debate
[00:01:21] has said, "For sure, let me calmly
[00:01:23] explain why Israel is our greatest ally
[00:01:25] and we should say fund the killing in
[00:01:27] Gaza. Here's why it's good for the
[00:01:28] United States to spend this much money
[00:01:31] on Israel's well, at this point, seven
[00:01:34] simultaneous wars, a sevenfront war.
[00:01:36] We're paying for it. Why is that a good
[00:01:38] idea for the United States? How is it
[00:01:40] morally justifiable? And what's the
[00:01:41] purpose of this exactly? Is it really to
[00:01:44] defend the country or is it to expand
[00:01:45] its territory? No one will answer those
[00:01:49] questions. And that is why simply you're
[00:01:52] hearing this very loud conversation
[00:01:55] about anti-semitism, which all of a
[00:01:57] sudden is everywhere. It's America's
[00:01:58] biggest problem. Well, there is of
[00:02:01] course anti-semitism, and it's wrong.
[00:02:03] It's always wrong to hate people for
[00:02:05] their blood. There's no question about
[00:02:08] that. But is anti-semitism really
[00:02:10] America's biggest problem? Well, no,
[00:02:12] it's not. It's not even on the top 100
[00:02:15] biggest problems, bad as it is.
[00:02:18] You're hearing about it as a way to shut
[00:02:20] down
[00:02:21] truthful, honest questions.
[00:02:24] And that's of course the dynamic. And
[00:02:26] it's very clear to anybody who's paying
[00:02:28] attention. The problem with this dynamic
[00:02:31] is that it can inspire a lot of anger
[00:02:34] and in fact a lot of hate. People are
[00:02:37] getting matter and matter and matter on
[00:02:40] this topic on both sides. And you have
[00:02:42] to wonder why that is. Why doesn't
[00:02:44] someone just stand up and say, "Let's
[00:02:45] have a reasonable discussion about this.
[00:02:47] Let's just lay it out there in
[00:02:49] non-emotional terms, non-hateful terms,
[00:02:52] without, you know, attacking an entire
[00:02:54] group of people, any group of people,
[00:02:56] whether it's the Jews or the Muslims or
[00:02:58] the Christians. Let's just slow down and
[00:03:00] be rational about this." Why is no one
[00:03:02] doing that? Well, it's possible that
[00:03:04] there are some people in this
[00:03:05] conversation, maybe on both sides, who
[00:03:08] want to inspire hate,
[00:03:11] and that's not a good idea for anyone,
[00:03:13] for this country, for Christians, is
[00:03:15] forbidden. Christians are not allowed to
[00:03:16] hate people. They understand that it's
[00:03:18] against God's law. It's also the fastest
[00:03:21] way to corrode your soul and turn you
[00:03:23] into a monster. And of course, you don't
[00:03:24] want that.
[00:03:26] So, how do you have a rational
[00:03:28] conversation about what's best for your
[00:03:30] country without becoming hateful
[00:03:32] yourself or inspiring hate in other
[00:03:34] people? We've really thought a lot about
[00:03:36] this. Don't become what they call you.
[00:03:40] That's our number one imperative, at
[00:03:41] least on this show. They call you a
[00:03:43] hater, don't become one. So, we're
[00:03:46] trying. So, we're doing a couple things.
[00:03:47] The first is we're flying to Jerusalem
[00:03:50] to interview Mike Huckabe. Mike Kuckabe
[00:03:52] is of course the American ambassador to
[00:03:55] Israel. Um, someone I've known for over
[00:03:59] 30 years and always liked. Uh, and also
[00:04:02] a Baptist preacher of some kind. Uh, but
[00:04:05] certainly a a prominent Baptist
[00:04:07] religious figure, also US ambassador and
[00:04:10] someone who has
[00:04:13] views that I just don't agree with at
[00:04:14] all. Um, on questions of American
[00:04:17] foreign policy and also on questions of
[00:04:18] theology. He's a Christian, famous
[00:04:19] Christian Zionist. um and a famous
[00:04:22] proponent of neocon foreign policy. I
[00:04:24] disagree with both. However, it seems
[00:04:27] like of all the people you could talk
[00:04:29] to, maybe Mike Huckabe is a guy you
[00:04:32] could talk to in a reasonable way, in a
[00:04:35] calm way, um without shouting or hatred.
[00:04:39] By the way, if you want a picture of
[00:04:41] what hell itself is like, it's shouting
[00:04:43] and hatred. It's a large group of people
[00:04:46] screaming, you know, calling for
[00:04:48] violence. That is literally a picture of
[00:04:50] hell.
[00:04:50] Don't live in it if you can help it. We
[00:04:52] don't want to. So maybe Huckabe is the
[00:04:54] guy uh to begin a reasonable
[00:04:58] conversation about what's best for the
[00:05:00] United States and what's true about
[00:05:02] Christian theology. So we're going to
[00:05:03] try. We're flying to Jerusalem.
[00:05:05] Difficult to do, not without risk, but
[00:05:07] we're doing it because we really believe
[00:05:09] that the direction that this
[00:05:12] conversation is moving is bad. It's bad
[00:05:14] for everybody. It's bad for the country
[00:05:15] and it's bad for our souls. So maybe
[00:05:18] that's a start. uh toward making it
[00:05:20] better. And the second thing we're
[00:05:22] really trying to do is to speak to
[00:05:25] Christians in the Middle East about the
[00:05:28] situation in the Middle East. And maybe
[00:05:31] not accidentally, that is the one group
[00:05:33] you almost never hear from in the United
[00:05:35] States. There are an awful lot of
[00:05:36] particularly Protestant evangelical uh
[00:05:39] ministers, leaders talking about Israel,
[00:05:42] Israel as they often call it um and what
[00:05:45] Christians are supposed to think about
[00:05:46] it, what they're required to think about
[00:05:47] it, what the US government and the US
[00:05:49] military should do to aid Israel, etc.,
[00:05:51] etc., etc. And those are almost always
[00:05:54] framed in terms of the West versus
[00:05:57] Islam, you know, Israel, United States
[00:06:00] versus the Muslims. Okay?
[00:06:02] But there's almost never any mention of
[00:06:05] the fact that the world's oldest
[00:06:07] Christian community is in that area in
[00:06:10] the Levant in Israel, Palestine,
[00:06:14] Lebanon, and Syria, that part of the
[00:06:16] Middle East that is not so far away.
[00:06:19] It's on the Mediterranean
[00:06:21] um and is of course the birthplace of
[00:06:24] Christianity, of Jesus himself. And
[00:06:26] there have been Christians there for
[00:06:28] 2,000 years uninterrupted.
[00:06:31] And we know that both from the
[00:06:32] historical record and from DNA tests. So
[00:06:35] if you're interested in Christianity, if
[00:06:37] you are a Christian, one of the first
[00:06:39] questions you ought to ask is how are
[00:06:41] Christians in the Middle East doing? And
[00:06:43] the political lines have changed, of
[00:06:45] course. And after the fall of the
[00:06:48] Ottoman Empire at the end of the first
[00:06:49] world war, that whole area was carved up
[00:06:51] into different countries, nation states
[00:06:54] run by colonial powers, France and
[00:06:56] England, and they became Syria, Lebanon,
[00:06:59] Palestine. And then after 1948 with the
[00:07:01] creation of Israel, Israel and then
[00:07:02] after 67 the West Bank. I mean it's it's
[00:07:05] it's been carved up over thousands of
[00:07:07] years by many different empires.
[00:07:10] But that region has remained the same
[00:07:11] and its population has remained
[00:07:13] remarkably stable and the Christian
[00:07:15] population has never left. These are not
[00:07:16] converts. These are the original
[00:07:18] Christians. Doesn't mean they're right
[00:07:20] about everything, but it means if you
[00:07:22] want to know what's actually happening,
[00:07:25] maybe you should talk to them. And two,
[00:07:26] it's great shame. It's great shame the
[00:07:29] American evangelical community such as
[00:07:31] it is or its leaders have been very
[00:07:33] resistant to talking to Middle Eastern
[00:07:38] Christians
[00:07:39] or even to thinking about Middle Eastern
[00:07:41] Christians and the effect of American
[00:07:43] policy on those people. But we think
[00:07:45] it's really important for two reasons.
[00:07:47] One, it's just inherent like what about
[00:07:50] the Christians is a fair question for
[00:07:52] Christians to ask. In fact, they should
[00:07:54] be required to ask that question. And
[00:07:56] second, because sincere Christians are
[00:07:59] not allowed to hate or be anti-semitic
[00:08:00] or hate all Muslims or hate all anybody
[00:08:02] or hate at all, it's forbidden by their
[00:08:05] religion.
[00:08:07] Talking to them directly
[00:08:10] is a great way to deescalate
[00:08:13] what is by design becoming a tribal war.
[00:08:18] There is no reason for any conversation
[00:08:20] about American foreign policy to devolve
[00:08:23] into Jews versus everyone else or
[00:08:26] everyone versus Jews or any of this
[00:08:27] stuff. It's all awful. It's all a dead
[00:08:29] end. It will end in violence. That's
[00:08:32] obvious. And then censorship and and all
[00:08:34] the things that you don't want in your
[00:08:36] country. So like don't go there. And
[00:08:40] we've really tried not to go there. And
[00:08:43] of course, they've called this show
[00:08:44] anti-Semitic and Nazi and all this
[00:08:46] stuff. And all of their paid shills have
[00:08:47] joined in on this. But
[00:08:51] we still have to resist becoming what
[00:08:54] they call us. That is our job. Period.
[00:08:58] As Americans and as Christians, to keep
[00:09:00] the hate out of our hearts and to stay
[00:09:02] reasonable. and talking to Middle
[00:09:05] Eastern Christians, sincere Christians,
[00:09:07] is a really important way to keep the
[00:09:10] conversation exactly where it should be.
[00:09:12] So, if you spend the evening at my
[00:09:15] house, you are guaranteed to find
[00:09:16] yourself in a conversation about the
[00:09:18] Hallow app. We talked about it this
[00:09:20] morning. It is the best prayer app ever.
[00:09:24] This Lent, Hallow's Pray 40 challenge
[00:09:27] invites users to step out of the noise
[00:09:28] of everyday life and dive into something
[00:09:30] much deeper. The Parable of the Prodigal
[00:09:34] Son. It's a story about a man who leaves
[00:09:36] home, wastes everything, hits rock
[00:09:38] bottom, and then realizes something
[00:09:40] transformative. He can go back. And when
[00:09:43] he does go back, he's not punished. He's
[00:09:45] welcomed. He's celebrated. That story
[00:09:48] tells the truth that no matter how far
[00:09:50] you have gone, you can still turn
[00:09:52] around. You're responsible for your next
[00:09:54] choice. Even if you behaved in deeply
[00:09:56] unholy ways, and we all have, mercy
[00:10:00] still awaits you. This Easter, Hallow's
[00:10:04] pray challenge is the best way to stay
[00:10:06] in touch with the word of God, the good
[00:10:08] word. The challenge begins Wednesday,
[00:10:10] February 18th, and runs through Easter.
[00:10:13] Get three months free at
[00:10:14] hallow.com/tucker.
[00:10:16] It's the best. So with that
[00:10:18] introduction,
[00:10:21] want to introduce you to Farres Abraham
[00:10:24] who is a Christian minister. He leads a
[00:10:27] ministry here in the United States who
[00:10:29] is originally from a town called
[00:10:30] Betsahor which is right outside
[00:10:32] Bethlehem, birthplace of Jesus. Betahor,
[00:10:34] as you're going to hear him explain in a
[00:10:36] minute, is the place where the shepherds
[00:10:40] saw and the wise men saw the angels
[00:10:42] announce Jesus's birth in the Gospels.
[00:10:46] And so he is literally from that town.
[00:10:48] It is a Palestinian village in what we
[00:10:51] call the West Bank, the West Bank of the
[00:10:54] Jordan River that was part of Jordan
[00:10:56] until 1967, but has always been there.
[00:10:59] And it is a majority, about 80%
[00:11:01] Christian village. And it's
[00:11:03] disappearing. The Christians are
[00:11:05] leaving. And there's not a lot of debate
[00:11:08] about why they're leaving. They're not
[00:11:10] leaving because primarily because of the
[00:11:12] Muslims. are leaving because of Jewish
[00:11:16] settlers moved into the town by the
[00:11:19] Israeli government with funding from the
[00:11:21] United States from a lot of Christians
[00:11:22] by the way in the United States. Not
[00:11:24] just Jews, Christians in the United
[00:11:25] States paying for these settlers to come
[00:11:27] and are driving out the Christian
[00:11:29] population.
[00:11:31] There is no rational justification for
[00:11:33] this. There's no moral justification for
[00:11:35] it. It's an atrocity
[00:11:37] and it is almost never spoken about in
[00:11:39] non-pmical
[00:11:41] honest ways. And this man came to our
[00:11:44] attention some months ago. We've talked
[00:11:46] to him extensively. We think he is a
[00:11:49] truly decent man who has no hate in his
[00:11:52] heart. You can judge for yourself. But
[00:11:55] no matter what side of this conversation
[00:11:56] you're on, and particularly if you're a
[00:11:58] Christian Zionist, and by the way, go
[00:12:00] ahead and remain one if you like, but
[00:12:02] you should know that your views and in
[00:12:06] some cases your money is funding the
[00:12:09] displacement and the murder of the
[00:12:12] oldest Christian community in the world.
[00:12:16] So with that, here's Farres Abraham
[00:12:19] originally from Bet Sahur in the West
[00:12:21] Bank. Thanks for doing this. So you are
[00:12:24] from a Christian village outside
[00:12:27] Bethlehem, birthplace of Jesus, correct?
[00:12:30] >> Yes.
[00:12:31] >> Um
[00:12:31] >> from Betsah.
[00:12:32] >> Betahor.
[00:12:33] >> Yeah.
[00:12:33] >> So what is Betsore?
[00:12:36] >> So first of all, thank you for having me
[00:12:37] here.
[00:12:38] >> Oh my gosh. Of course.
[00:12:39] >> And I wish I never had to do this
[00:12:41] interview to be honest with you, but I
[00:12:43] feel compelled. I feel a sense of
[00:12:45] urgency because the little town that I
[00:12:47] come from is under existential threat.
[00:12:50] And let me say I come here as a
[00:12:53] Christian first and foremost very proud
[00:12:55] Christian and I'm Palestinian American
[00:12:57] Christian and I'm very proud of this
[00:13:00] country and for what this country stands
[00:13:02] for and for the great opportunity that I
[00:13:04] was given as a Palestinian. This is my
[00:13:06] new homeland. Uh America gave me uh
[00:13:09] education uh work and then later I I got
[00:13:13] married. I met the the woman of my
[00:13:15] dreams here who, you know, my wife comes
[00:13:18] from Gaza and we met here in the States.
[00:13:20] We started a family. We pursued the
[00:13:22] American dream and I'm so grateful and
[00:13:24] so thankful. But I'm here because I feel
[00:13:26] that um the little town of Bessahore is
[00:13:30] really under imminent danger that if
[00:13:35] nothing happens, if we don't do anything
[00:13:37] about it, there will be no more
[00:13:38] Christians living in bed today. So, it's
[00:13:42] a it's a Christian majority town
[00:13:45] and uh it's known for the shepherd's
[00:13:47] fields. In Luke chapter 2, when the
[00:13:51] angel of the Lord appeared to the
[00:13:52] shepherds who were tending to their
[00:13:54] flocks, the angel appeared to them and
[00:13:57] pronounced the greatest event that ever
[00:13:59] happened in history, which is the birth
[00:14:01] of the Messiah in next door uh town in
[00:14:04] town, little town.
[00:14:05] >> So, it says they were right outside town
[00:14:07] and they were that's where they were.
[00:14:08] >> Absolutely. So this is this this
[00:14:10] happened in Bahour. And if you go to
[00:14:12] Betahor today, the shepherd field is
[00:14:14] there. The people are there and the
[00:14:18] angel appeared also with a chorus of
[00:14:20] angelic host singing uh glory to God in
[00:14:24] the highest, peace on earth and great
[00:14:26] joy to great man. Now the significance
[00:14:28] of Bessahore is that God chose this
[00:14:31] little town, the town of the shepherds
[00:14:34] to announce the birth of Jesus. God
[00:14:37] didn't choose the spiritual elites and
[00:14:39] the religious institutions in Jerusalem,
[00:14:42] >> right?
[00:14:42] >> And he did not choose the powerful
[00:14:46] politicians and military in Rome, but he
[00:14:49] chose to announce the birth of a savior
[00:14:52] in a town called Pahur. And when the
[00:14:55] shepherds went to Bethlehem, they saw
[00:14:57] baby Jesus, they came back rejoicing.
[00:15:00] And they were the first evangelists
[00:15:03] that told the world about the birth of
[00:15:05] Jesus. God with us. It was in the It was
[00:15:09] in those fields where they were tending
[00:15:11] their flocks. They were poor. They were
[00:15:14] marginalized.
[00:15:15] They were ordinary men and women who
[00:15:18] just happened to be there and God chose
[00:15:20] them to be that. So betor takes pride
[00:15:24] and it's not that we are privileged and
[00:15:26] better than anybody else. But that's the
[00:15:28] essence of the Christmas story that God
[00:15:30] gives hope to the people in the margins
[00:15:32] first. God's grace reaches those people
[00:15:36] first and the town of Baha takes very
[00:15:39] pride uh of of of this heritage and this
[00:15:42] legacy.
[00:15:43] >> How long has it been majority Christian?
[00:15:45] >> It's been always majority Christian. So
[00:15:46] for like thousands of years
[00:15:48] >> since the time of Jesus we you know the
[00:15:51] town of Bessar is the early descendants
[00:15:53] of the first Christmas story and they
[00:15:55] have maintained uncont uninterrupted
[00:15:58] continuous presence since the day uh of
[00:16:02] of of the announcement of the birth of
[00:16:04] Jesus.
[00:16:05] >> It's amazing. How long has your family
[00:16:06] been there?
[00:16:07] >> Generations. We always jock around like
[00:16:11] we go back
[00:16:14] uh thousands of years. Unfortunately, we
[00:16:16] don't have family tree that could trace
[00:16:18] back to to the time of Jesus,
[00:16:20] >> but the people have always lived there.
[00:16:22] The people have always farmed their
[00:16:25] land.
[00:16:25] >> So, you're not a new convert to
[00:16:26] Christianity.
[00:16:27] >> We're not newcomers. We don't come from
[00:16:30] neighboring countries. We're not We're
[00:16:32] not converts. We're not newcomers. We're
[00:16:34] not immigrants. We're an indigenous
[00:16:36] people of the land,
[00:16:37] >> Christian people.
[00:16:38] >> Christian Palestinians have a unique
[00:16:40] story to tell. What's interesting is
[00:16:42] that over that 2,000-year period, you
[00:16:46] know, a lot has happened. A lot of
[00:16:47] different people have ruled that area.
[00:16:49] Of course, originally the Romans.
[00:16:50] >> Yes.
[00:16:51] >> 2,000 years ago was the Romans. And then
[00:16:54] then of course you you know the move up
[00:16:57] from Arabia, Islam starts
[00:17:00] um and then you have the Crusades kind
[00:17:02] of flip it over and then you have it
[00:17:04] flip back and it becomes the Ottomans
[00:17:06] and then Muslims run out of Istanbul
[00:17:10] Constant Turks and then you have the
[00:17:13] Brits and now you have the Israelis. So
[00:17:16] during all that time that village
[00:17:19] remained Christian, but you're saying
[00:17:21] now under Israeli rule because it is
[00:17:24] ruled by the Israelis, correct?
[00:17:25] >> Yes.
[00:17:26] >> It's in danger of becoming extinct.
[00:17:29] >> I call Palestinian Christians empire
[00:17:32] survivors.
[00:17:33] >> Yeah.
[00:17:34] >> We have survived empires. Armies came
[00:17:37] and left. Uh rulers came and left.
[00:17:39] >> A lot of them. Identity changed,
[00:17:42] language change, culture has been shaped
[00:17:44] by those empires. But the people have
[00:17:48] always remained there. The church has
[00:17:51] always been open to worship, has always
[00:17:54] maintained a gospel witness. And and
[00:17:57] this is my my deepest concern that if
[00:18:01] nothing is happened, if we don't do
[00:18:04] anything about it, there will be no more
[00:18:05] Christians in the holy land. So they
[00:18:08] remain there from you know 33 AD until
[00:18:13] 1967 and then in 1967 when this area is
[00:18:16] annexed by the government
[00:18:18] >> yes
[00:18:19] >> the the real threat begins. That's what
[00:18:21] you're saying.
[00:18:21] >> Yes. Israel has pursued one strategy
[00:18:24] ducker uh over decades which is take as
[00:18:28] much Palestinian land as possible and
[00:18:31] keep as few Palestinians on the land as
[00:18:34] possible.
[00:18:36] This has been their strategy. It has
[00:18:38] worked for them because they've
[00:18:41] constantly taken Palestinian land within
[00:18:43] we're talking about uh not proper Israel
[00:18:45] but we're talking about 1967 when they
[00:18:47] captured West Bank, East Jerusalem and
[00:18:49] in Gaza. They have been taking land.
[00:18:52] They have been building uh settlements
[00:18:54] there and uh this is threatening the
[00:18:57] local population especially it comes at
[00:19:00] a heavy price. So that has been the
[00:19:03] policy for decades and it has worked for
[00:19:06] them because it's almost near completion
[00:19:08] now.
[00:19:10] They're taking if you look at Bethlehem,
[00:19:12] the governor to Bethlehem, the district
[00:19:14] of Bethlehem, it is surrounded by
[00:19:16] Israeli settlements. And it's actually,
[00:19:19] if you look it up, the Bethlehem ring,
[00:19:21] it's actually a thing. It's a ring of
[00:19:23] settlements all encircling every town,
[00:19:27] every Palestinian village. And they
[00:19:29] choose these uh specific lands
[00:19:32] strategically on hilltops, taking water
[00:19:35] resources, building walls around these
[00:19:38] settlements, uh building new roadblocks,
[00:19:41] building new checkpoints, building new
[00:19:43] uh security measures, they call it,
[00:19:45] motion sensors, uh electric wires, and
[00:19:49] it comes at a really deep expense at the
[00:19:52] expense of the local population.
[00:19:54] >> So when So you grew up there? Yes, I
[00:19:57] grew up in in the town of Bahour.
[00:19:59] >> What was that like? What was your
[00:20:01] experience of the Israeli government
[00:20:03] growing up as a Christian there?
[00:20:06] >> Well, I lived through the first inif
[00:20:10] and we lived next to the YMCA in Betah.
[00:20:15] There is actually a YMCA in Betsur and
[00:20:18] down the road from us there was an
[00:20:19] Israeli bypass road only.
[00:20:22] >> What does that mean? It mean when
[00:20:24] whenever they build settlements, they
[00:20:26] build those roads that are only
[00:20:28] accessible to settlers which these roads
[00:20:32] are connect the entire uh settlements
[00:20:35] together and they they they are directly
[00:20:37] connected to proper Israel. So they can
[00:20:39] easy of movement for the settlers to go.
[00:20:41] >> What do you mean for settler? You mean
[00:20:43] you're not allowed on them?
[00:20:44] >> No, absolutely not. Some roads in area B
[00:20:48] of the West Bank uh Palestinians are
[00:20:50] allowed on them like between the roads
[00:20:52] of uh between Bethlehem and Hebrron or
[00:20:55] Bethlehem and Jericho. There are some
[00:20:57] few very limited roads that you can't I
[00:21:00] mean what what are you going to do? Uh
[00:21:02] we have to share the roads but in many
[00:21:05] of these roads Palestinians are not
[00:21:06] allowed to
[00:21:07] >> you're not allowed like as someone who's
[00:21:09] born there
[00:21:09] >> who absolutely not. But those road that
[00:21:13] road down the street from us, we would
[00:21:15] see settlers come and go. We would see
[00:21:18] Israeli army vehicles come and go. And
[00:21:21] one day we were playing outside.
[00:21:22] >> Wait, I'm sorry. This is kind of I mean,
[00:21:24] I've I've been there.
[00:21:26] >> Uhhuh.
[00:21:26] >> But it's hard. I I didn't fully digest
[00:21:28] this, I guess, at the time. So, how
[00:21:30] about right now? You're you're an
[00:21:31] American. You you live in the United
[00:21:32] States. You've been here a long time.
[00:21:34] Could you go and get on one of those
[00:21:35] roads?
[00:21:36] >> Let me explain it this way. Imagine you
[00:21:38] are in San Diego.
[00:21:39] >> Yeah. And then a group of people from
[00:21:41] Mexico come to San Diego and take a
[00:21:43] piece of property.
[00:21:45] >> Yes.
[00:21:45] >> And they build fence around it. And then
[00:21:48] all of the sudden they plant a Mexican
[00:21:51] flag on that. You know, not to say that
[00:21:53] I love Mexicans, but this is
[00:21:55] hypothetical.
[00:21:55] >> I get it. But it's a country, too. It's
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[00:23:07] Remember you mentioned you heard it here
[00:23:10] first. So for the sake of this uh for
[00:23:13] the sake of this analogy, imagine they
[00:23:16] come and they build fence around this
[00:23:17] property and now it cuts your property
[00:23:19] in half and sometimes it slice it up. So
[00:23:22] you becomes San Diego becomes fragmented
[00:23:26] and they set up this fence around it.
[00:23:28] They take the water resources, they
[00:23:30] build walls, sniper towers, and all of
[00:23:33] the sudden you see the Mexican army
[00:23:36] coming to protect those new settlers.
[00:23:39] And those settlers are not friendly
[00:23:42] neighbors. They're not coming to San
[00:23:44] Diego to be neighbors. They're coming to
[00:23:47] take the land from San Diego.
[00:23:51] And now if you are a mother, a Christian
[00:23:54] mother who puts
[00:23:57] her children in Christian school and you
[00:24:00] want and and your school now is behind
[00:24:03] those new roads that these Mexican
[00:24:07] settlers built. They built a new road
[00:24:10] that connects San Diego to Tijuana
[00:24:14] across the border.
[00:24:16] And you are a mother who wants to go who
[00:24:18] wants to drop off her kids to a school
[00:24:21] that is beyond
[00:24:23] those bypass road only.
[00:24:27] And this is not theoretical for us. This
[00:24:29] is reality. When you go to Bet Sahur,
[00:24:32] you will see the settlements encircling
[00:24:35] the little town choking it. It's like
[00:24:37] slow suffocation. It prevents it from
[00:24:40] its natural growth. That story that I
[00:24:43] told you about the mother is actually my
[00:24:44] cousin who takes her uh children. She
[00:24:49] has twins and she has a six-year-old to
[00:24:52] the American evangelical school built in
[00:24:54] Betsahor.
[00:24:57] And with this new settlement they have
[00:24:59] built they have set up a roadblock a
[00:25:01] checkpoint where Israeli come and man
[00:25:04] those checkpoint to protect the
[00:25:05] settlers.
[00:25:07] Now, one day she was taking her children
[00:25:08] to school and the Israeli army pointed
[00:25:12] guns at them. Oh, come on. Instructing
[00:25:14] them to let the kids walk
[00:25:18] across the checkpoint to make it to the
[00:25:20] school to the other side. Now, this is
[00:25:22] not an in isolated incident. This is not
[00:25:26] something that happens every once in a
[00:25:28] while. The army is always present to
[00:25:32] protect the settlers.
[00:25:34] So my cousin told her six-year-old,
[00:25:37] "You're strong. You can do this and you
[00:25:41] can we can walk through it. The teacher
[00:25:43] on the other side is going to receive
[00:25:45] you." As soon as she walked, she held
[00:25:47] her head head up high. She passed
[00:25:50] through the soldier
[00:25:52] and she fainted at the feet of the
[00:25:54] school staff. Now this is brings a lot
[00:25:57] of psychological trauma.
[00:26:00] Uh it brings a lot of nightmares. That's
[00:26:03] what Christian families in Betsahur are
[00:26:06] experiencing. Now I remember I told you
[00:26:08] about this uh our our h our home back in
[00:26:11] Betahor. It's not too far from the
[00:26:14] school. It's not too far from the new
[00:26:15] settlement they are building in Betahor.
[00:26:17] And down the road is the Israeli bypass
[00:26:20] road which is only for settlers and and
[00:26:22] Israeli armed vehicles. In 1990
[00:26:27] we watch settlers come and go. There was
[00:26:30] an Israeli army vehicle that stopped and
[00:26:34] we saw I was 10 at that time. I saw an
[00:26:37] Israeli soldier stepping out of the
[00:26:39] vehicle pointing a rifle at us and he
[00:26:42] start shooting at us.
[00:26:43] >> Are you?
[00:26:44] >> We were a bunch of kids. I mean my my my
[00:26:46] siblings, my mother was there and some
[00:26:48] of my cousins. He starts shooting life
[00:26:51] ammunition at us and then my mother
[00:26:54] rushed us all into the door. She was the
[00:26:57] last one to get in. She caught a bullet
[00:26:59] in the back.
[00:27:00] >> Your mother?
[00:27:01] >> Yes, my own mother who loves the Lord
[00:27:03] and she loves Jesus. An exit wound. She
[00:27:07] dropped.
[00:27:07] >> Come on.
[00:27:08] >> She dropped on the floor. Pool of blood.
[00:27:10] I heard I heard to the to the back door.
[00:27:14] Called my dad, my uncle who was a
[00:27:16] physician, put pressure on the wound,
[00:27:18] took her to the hospital, saved her.
[00:27:21] >> You saw this happen?
[00:27:22] >> This in front of in front of my eyes. My
[00:27:25] own mother.
[00:27:26] >> I'm sorry. I should say we've been
[00:27:27] talking off camera before we started
[00:27:28] this interview and I detect I I didn't
[00:27:30] know the story. It's not in my interview
[00:27:33] notes and I detected no bitterness
[00:27:35] whatsoever in anything that you said. I
[00:27:37] don't know how.
[00:27:38] >> Okay. Sorry. So, you're just shocking
[00:27:40] me. I didn't expect to hear that.
[00:27:42] >> Palestinian Christians take the sermon
[00:27:45] of the mount very seriously. Apparently
[00:27:48] >> when Jesus comes and he elevates our
[00:27:51] thinking when he elevates our
[00:27:55] outlook on life when he takes morality
[00:27:59] to a whole new standard when he said you
[00:28:02] have heard do not kill but I tell you if
[00:28:05] you look at your brother and you call
[00:28:06] him raqa Aramaic word for fool or stupid
[00:28:09] >> right
[00:28:10] >> you just have committed the murder.
[00:28:12] >> Exactly. And when he said, and you
[00:28:14] remember the context, Jesus was talking
[00:28:16] to a Jewish audience who were under
[00:28:19] ruthless Roman occupation.
[00:28:21] >> Yes,
[00:28:21] >> they were persecuted. They were uh
[00:28:24] discriminated against. It was very
[00:28:27] brutal to live under the Roman
[00:28:28] occupation. But Jesus is telling his
[00:28:30] followers, "Love your enemies. Pray for
[00:28:34] those who persecute you."
[00:28:36] This is something that we have grow up
[00:28:39] we have grown up understanding the very
[00:28:41] essence and the meaning of this sermon
[00:28:46] of the mount.
[00:28:47] >> Wow. I'm sorry I I've totally derailed
[00:28:50] your story because I'm just shocked. I
[00:28:52] really didn't know that was coming. So
[00:28:53] you you're 10 years old. You watch your
[00:28:55] mother get shot by Okay. So many
[00:28:57] questions. Why did he do this? Do you
[00:29:00] know?
[00:29:01] >> This has been just random.
[00:29:04] They do this not just to Palestinian
[00:29:07] Christians. I mean, that has been the
[00:29:08] policy. It's They do it to the Muslims.
[00:29:10] They do it to any Palestinians.
[00:29:13] >> Did she survive?
[00:29:14] >> She did. Miraculous. It was The bullet
[00:29:17] was just millimeters away from the
[00:29:20] spine.
[00:29:20] >> It was an American rifle, I assume.
[00:29:23] >> Who knows?
[00:29:23] >> Of course,
[00:29:24] >> we don't know the six round, right?
[00:29:26] Okay. So, that's my next question. So,
[00:29:28] so some soldier, your mother wasn't
[00:29:30] throwing rocks at him or screaming for
[00:29:32] jihad or anything. We were just playing
[00:29:33] in front of the house.
[00:29:35] We were just kids playing.
[00:29:38] Not just
[00:29:38] >> how can how can you live in this country
[00:29:40] and listen to people who have no idea
[00:29:42] what they're talking about?
[00:29:43] >> So this is this is the real threat of
[00:29:45] the new settlements. Okay? It's not just
[00:29:48] taking Christian land. It's not
[00:29:52] acquiring and taking by force the
[00:29:54] resources of the land of Christian lands
[00:29:57] who live there for generations.
[00:30:00] It's inviting
[00:30:03] violent settlers
[00:30:06] to your neighborhood. They're coming to
[00:30:08] take the land. They're coming to
[00:30:09] squeeze. They're coming to crush.
[00:30:11] They're coming.
[00:30:11] >> Why are they mad? What did you do
[00:30:15] being born in the
[00:30:17] >> I don't understand the hate. And I I
[00:30:20] certainly have been the target of it,
[00:30:21] but I I don't understand. I mean, I
[00:30:23] understand why people don't like me. I'm
[00:30:25] doing interviews like this, but I don't
[00:30:26] understand why
[00:30:28] the why would someone shoot a mother in
[00:30:31] front of her children? Like, I just
[00:30:33] don't get that. Like, what is that?
[00:30:36] You interviewed Bishop Hassam and he
[00:30:38] mentioned the story, the recent story
[00:30:40] just last month.
[00:30:41] >> Yes.
[00:30:42] >> The attack on a Christian widow. She's a
[00:30:44] Christian widow
[00:30:46] that a violent settler came to her
[00:30:48] property grazing on the on on the in the
[00:30:51] land with his cattle and then he hits
[00:30:54] her with a stone on her head fractures
[00:30:57] her skull takes her to you know it's a
[00:31:00] she almost lost her life and when her
[00:31:02] son tried to defend her the son gets
[00:31:05] arrested by the Israeli military
[00:31:08] and then when the settlers bunch of
[00:31:09] settlers they showed up at the house in
[00:31:12] the presence and the full support and
[00:31:13] the complicity of the Israeli army. They
[00:31:15] knocked down the door. Her daughter was
[00:31:18] inside, Narim man. And I talked to her.
[00:31:21] She drew the sign of her cross
[00:31:24] and when they found out that she was
[00:31:26] Christian, you know what the settler
[00:31:27] told her?
[00:31:28] >> What
[00:31:28] >> he told her? What are you doing here?
[00:31:30] This is not your land. You don't belong
[00:31:33] here. He said, "Go to France or go
[00:31:36] somewhere else. You don't belong here.
[00:31:37] God gave us this land."
[00:31:40] Now this settler violence that has been
[00:31:43] on the rise the town of Taibbe where
[00:31:45] they uh burned centuries old church they
[00:31:50] burned the crops vandalized properties
[00:31:54] write graffitis spitting on clergy and
[00:31:57] pastors and leaders. Um all of these
[00:32:00] atrocities
[00:32:02] are done in broad daylight. They're done
[00:32:05] without accountability and no one is is
[00:32:09] being uh held responsible for these
[00:32:12] atrocities. Well, 2026 is likely to be
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[00:33:32] say I was talking to my wife? I was on
[00:33:34] the road for a few weeks and I was
[00:33:35] talking to her at breakfast this morning
[00:33:38] about that interview with the Anglican
[00:33:39] Archbishop that we did uh on the banks
[00:33:42] of the Jordan River. And he's we're
[00:33:44] Anglicans. We grew up in it and the
[00:33:46] Anglican church in the United States is
[00:33:48] is you know it's not very Christian
[00:33:50] anymore. And I was telling her that man
[00:33:54] off camera I said to him people spit on
[00:33:57] you. And my first thought was why don't
[00:33:58] you shoot them? like don't allow someone
[00:34:00] to spit. I didn't say that because I,
[00:34:01] you know, but that was my thought. Shows
[00:34:03] what a bad person I am. And he said,
[00:34:06] every time someone spits at me, I feel
[00:34:07] blessed they spit at Jesus.
[00:34:11] And I was telling my wife, I think
[00:34:13] Christians who live in that kind of
[00:34:15] environment understand Christianity in a
[00:34:18] much deeper way than we do here. I think
[00:34:21] that to hear you say that you don't feel
[00:34:23] bitterness. Your mother didn't feel
[00:34:24] bitterness after being shot in front of
[00:34:26] her children for no reason. And this is
[00:34:28] what the gospel does. It transforms the
[00:34:30] heart.
[00:34:31] >> Yes, I totally agree.
[00:34:33] >> It's it's Yes. I want to seek justice,
[00:34:37] but in the meantime, I don't want to
[00:34:38] allow hatred
[00:34:40] >> to poison my soul. I don't want
[00:34:43] >> Okay, please. Everyone watch this,
[00:34:44] rewind. Watch that again. Can you say
[00:34:46] that again? I love that. I don't want to
[00:34:48] allow
[00:34:50] the the the atrocities
[00:34:53] and the sins that have been committed
[00:34:56] against Christians
[00:35:00] to allow bitterness to grow in our
[00:35:02] hearts.
[00:35:02] >> Amen.
[00:35:03] >> Jesus provided a better way. Jesus gave
[00:35:06] us the example of forgiving and for
[00:35:09] loving our enemies. Jesus forgave the
[00:35:12] people who even crucified him. And
[00:35:15] that's the model. That's why
[00:35:17] >> that's right Christians in the holy land
[00:35:20] are the salt of the earth are the light
[00:35:23] in the midst of that darkness and if we
[00:35:25] don't preserve that gospel witness this
[00:35:28] is the reason I decided to do this
[00:35:29] interview with you Katar
[00:35:30] >> and I said a prayer this morning in my
[00:35:32] sauna that you would that God would
[00:35:33] speak through you and he is
[00:35:35] >> it's the gospel witness we want to keep
[00:35:37] the message of Christ alive in the lands
[00:35:40] of its birth we want to share the good
[00:35:43] news of the gospel with every person who
[00:35:46] is who is traumatized with every person
[00:35:49] who is suffering with every child in
[00:35:51] Gaza who has lost everything. The only
[00:35:55] hope is to tell them that God loves
[00:35:57] them.
[00:35:57] >> That's right. The only hope is to break
[00:36:00] that that cycle of violence between the
[00:36:02] Israelis and the Palestinians is not
[00:36:05] it's not going I don't you know you law
[00:36:08] will restrain your physical being
[00:36:13] but God sets your spirit free he sets
[00:36:16] your soul free
[00:36:18] >> you're making me emotional
[00:36:20] >> no that's totally right
[00:36:21] >> he redeems us and these are these are
[00:36:25] the basic values that are lived on daily
[00:36:29] basis by Christian Palestinians.
[00:36:32] H let me tell you about my friend Salam.
[00:36:37] Salam was the only child to his family
[00:36:39] who lived right down the street from me
[00:36:42] closer to this Israeli highbass road.
[00:36:47] And on February 18, 1991,
[00:36:50] a hateful
[00:36:52] Israeli settler parked his vehicle next
[00:36:55] to Salam's house and he shot him in the
[00:36:59] head inside his house through a window
[00:37:02] while having dinner with his family.
[00:37:05] A new settlement coming to town
[00:37:08] is going to pose real existential threat
[00:37:13] to everyone living there. and the
[00:37:16] Christian witness will be diminished.
[00:37:19] >> So this is this is a part it's hard to
[00:37:21] understand as an American and let's just
[00:37:23] start a few minutes previous in the
[00:37:26] conversation. A Israeli soldier IDF
[00:37:29] soldier shoots your mother for no
[00:37:31] reason.
[00:37:32] Who is that soldier? Was there a trial?
[00:37:36] Did you ever hear what happened to him?
[00:37:37] Was he I mean these sound like dumb
[00:37:38] questions, but I'm an American. Was he
[00:37:40] punished? Like what happened next?
[00:37:41] >> We have no idea.
[00:37:45] So, nobody from the occupation
[00:37:46] authority, from the supposedly humane
[00:37:49] western western Israeli government ever
[00:37:51] went to your house and said, you know,
[00:37:52] we've questioned this guy or even
[00:37:54] followed up at all?
[00:37:55] >> Absolutely not. You see, this is the
[00:37:57] issue.
[00:37:58] >> You just shot your mother like an animal
[00:37:59] and then never.
[00:38:00] >> The core issue here is that there's a
[00:38:03] culture of impunity.
[00:38:06] A lot of these acts, they go unchecked.
[00:38:09] Oh, I Oh, I've noticed
[00:38:11] >> it's a culture and that comes it it's
[00:38:14] not insulated incidents. And just to
[00:38:16] give you numbers, okay, the Rosing
[00:38:18] Center in Jerusalem, it's an Israeli
[00:38:20] human right organization. So, in case
[00:38:23] you know, people discredit the
[00:38:24] Palestinian testimony of Palestinian
[00:38:26] Christians, you know, we often get
[00:38:28] discredited this.
[00:38:29] >> Oh, I've noticed. Yes.
[00:38:30] >> And and it breaks on my our heart when
[00:38:33] even our brothers and sisters in Christ
[00:38:35] do that. Well, I want to ask you about
[00:38:37] that because that's where I have trouble
[00:38:38] controlling.
[00:38:39] >> But I'm going to come back to the to the
[00:38:40] Rosing Center. They documented 111
[00:38:44] attacks on Christians in 2024 alone.
[00:38:48] 111.
[00:38:50] You go to any Israeli human rights
[00:38:52] organization such as Bit Salem. He's now
[00:38:56] documenting every single incident and
[00:39:00] you will find a pattern that these
[00:39:02] attacks are not random. They're not uh
[00:39:06] they don't happen out of the blue.
[00:39:08] They're systematic.
[00:39:10] Israel has created a pervasive system
[00:39:14] and we call it uh a structural pressure
[00:39:18] that they keep applying on the Christian
[00:39:20] population to push them out of their
[00:39:22] land. When I speak to Palestinian
[00:39:25] Christians in betahur, what they fear
[00:39:27] the most, they saw what's happening in
[00:39:29] Gaza. They have relatives in Gaza and
[00:39:31] they fear that they are next. It's a
[00:39:34] real danger that is
[00:39:37] uh pointed at Betsah community right now
[00:39:40] and this new settlement and it's not the
[00:39:42] only settlements. I mean is surrounded
[00:39:44] by settlements and we have long history
[00:39:47] of these settlers coming and taking is
[00:39:51] Palestinian lands and building those uh
[00:39:54] you know lavish settlements and
[00:39:55] >> but ugly very ugly
[00:39:57] >> you know they they they fill up their
[00:39:59] swimming pools they put their their
[00:40:03] green grass while Palestinian Christians
[00:40:06] they wait for two or three weeks for a
[00:40:08] water truck to fill up their tanks on
[00:40:11] top of the roof giant black plastic tank
[00:40:14] that we're not allowed to even have
[00:40:16] running water.
[00:40:17] >> I've seen them. Can I ask just because I
[00:40:19] don't want anything to fall through the
[00:40:20] cracks here. Your friend who was
[00:40:23] murdered while having dinner by a
[00:40:25] settler. What happened to that settler?
[00:40:27] >> Salam Muslim. We don't know who the
[00:40:29] seller was. He just stopped his vehicle,
[00:40:32] shot at him, and left. And Salam is not
[00:40:34] the only one. Wait,
[00:40:35] >> may I ask like was there no
[00:40:37] investigation of this? No one was
[00:40:38] arrested for it?
[00:40:40] >> Nope. Absolutely not.
[00:40:43] Salam is not the only one. There was
[00:40:45] another guy named uh um Adm
[00:40:51] you know back in the days this policy
[00:40:53] used to be much in much bigger full
[00:40:55] force. They called it uh home mapping. I
[00:40:58] don't know if you're familiar with home
[00:41:00] mapping.
[00:41:01] >> So
[00:41:01] >> I'm an American. I don't know anything.
[00:41:02] I've been lied to about this for so
[00:41:04] long.
[00:41:04] >> So, so thank God for organization like
[00:41:06] uh Break the Silence, which is a group
[00:41:09] of former IDF soldiers and they're there
[00:41:11] sharing their stories and their
[00:41:12] experiences in the West Bank. So, home
[00:41:16] mapping is when an Israeli uh army
[00:41:19] decides to go into a Palestinian home
[00:41:21] for the purpose quote unquote of
[00:41:23] collecting intelligence.
[00:41:25] And what they usually do is they lock up
[00:41:27] the whole family in a room uh for a day
[00:41:30] or two and sometimes for weeks and they
[00:41:33] take over the house. And this usually is
[00:41:35] done to give the new soldiers some
[00:41:37] practice and training. It's called home
[00:41:39] mapping. So when I grew up, and these
[00:41:43] are stories from my childhood, Adm was
[00:41:46] walking down the street
[00:41:48] when an Israeli soldier was on top of a
[00:41:51] Palestinian house roof, dropped a stone
[00:41:55] on Admon, and killed him instantly.
[00:41:59] >> A Christian, a Christian young man for
[00:42:03] no reason.
[00:42:05] Anton Shomi, he was caught by an
[00:42:08] Israeli, you know, he ran away from the
[00:42:10] Israeli army for some reason. He got
[00:42:13] scared. They caught him and they shot
[00:42:16] him in a close proximity
[00:42:19] in cold blood. And I can give you
[00:42:21] stories of stories. Those are not
[00:42:23] terrorists. Those are not people who
[00:42:27] seek violence. Those are people who want
[00:42:31] to simply stay in their land,
[00:42:34] work, live, have a future, live in
[00:42:39] peace. And let me tell you, you know,
[00:42:41] highlighting the violence of of of the
[00:42:43] settlers uh does not mean we ignore the
[00:42:47] violence committed by some Palestinians.
[00:42:50] I mean, as Christians, we recognize
[00:42:52] there are some Palestinians who carry
[00:42:54] out um attacks
[00:42:58] and inflict terror on innocent Israelis
[00:43:01] as well. And we're not going to bury our
[00:43:03] heads in the sand and say, "Oh, it
[00:43:04] doesn't have it." You know, stabbing,
[00:43:06] ramming into some Israeli citizens. And
[00:43:09] as Christian Palestinian American, we
[00:43:12] condemn any attacks on any civilians. We
[00:43:15] condemn any form of violence to achieve
[00:43:18] justice. This is the very core of the
[00:43:21] Christian message. We reject violence
[00:43:24] altogether. Palestinian Christians have
[00:43:25] always extending the hands of making
[00:43:27] peace with our Jewish neighbors, with
[00:43:29] our Muslim neighbors, with with
[00:43:31] everyone. We just want to live in peace.
[00:43:32] So we condemn violence at all levels.
[00:43:35] But there's a difference between when a
[00:43:38] Palestinian commits a violence versus
[00:43:40] when a settler commits a violence. When
[00:43:42] a Palestinian commits a violence wrong
[00:43:46] to be condemned, not to be condoned to
[00:43:48] killing innocent civilians,
[00:43:50] usually he or she are shot on the spot.
[00:43:53] And if they make it out alive, they get
[00:43:55] detained and they thrown in in prison.
[00:43:58] And right now, the Israeli government is
[00:44:00] really pushing hard to pass a law to
[00:44:03] legalize the death penalty in Israeli
[00:44:05] for Palestinians.
[00:44:07] But anyway, he gets thrown in prison.
[00:44:09] His house his family his family's house
[00:44:13] gets demolished and his family gets a
[00:44:18] security block not to travel anywhere
[00:44:20] outside town collectively punishing the
[00:44:24] parents for the crime that their son or
[00:44:27] their daughter committed. Now this is
[00:44:29] what hap so when a Palestinian commits a
[00:44:31] crime this happens but when a settler
[00:44:33] commits a crime there is an Israeli army
[00:44:36] that backs it up. There is a system that
[00:44:39] gives it impunity and this is the grave
[00:44:42] injustice. As a Christian minister, this
[00:44:45] is why I come to your show and say this
[00:44:47] should not be done especially when
[00:44:50] Christians are supporting this without
[00:44:54] knowing the facts and the reality on the
[00:44:56] ground. This is what really
[00:44:58] >> some of them do know the facts and
[00:44:59] reality on the ground just and I I don't
[00:45:02] think that applies to your average
[00:45:03] evangelical Christian Zionist in the
[00:45:05] United States. I don't think they have
[00:45:06] any idea, but some of their leaders know
[00:45:08] perfectly well what's happening and I
[00:45:10] because I know them and I know that they
[00:45:11] know
[00:45:11] >> and they know the Christians by name and
[00:45:13] they have their data and they know where
[00:45:16] they live.
[00:45:18] So, and I want to get I have I have way
[00:45:20] too many questions for you, but
[00:45:21] thankfully we have time. Um, but this
[00:45:23] seems like a good time to try to
[00:45:25] understand what's going on there. And
[00:45:27] I've already admitted that's where my
[00:45:28] anger lies is toward, you know, the
[00:45:31] people like me, Christians in America,
[00:45:32] who um are making excuses for this or or
[00:45:36] abetting it, making it possible. What is
[00:45:39] that? Why is that happening?
[00:45:42] >> October 7 was horrific.
[00:45:44] >> Yes, I agree.
[00:45:46] >> It was horrible what Hamas has done.
[00:45:48] Killing innocent civilians, uh
[00:45:51] kidnapping babies.
[00:45:52] >> I totally agree.
[00:45:53] >> This is wrong. This needs to be
[00:45:55] condemned. and Palestinian Christians
[00:45:56] have been consistent in condemning
[00:45:58] violence to achieve justice. As I said,
[00:46:01] but the overwhelming suffering lies on
[00:46:04] Gaza right now. The disproportionate
[00:46:07] response I was in South Africa when
[00:46:08] October on October 7, I was getting
[00:46:10] ready to speak at a Christian conference
[00:46:14] uh before 5,000 people in the room in
[00:46:16] Cape Town.
[00:46:18] And before I got up there, my phone
[00:46:22] start
[00:46:23] all kind of notifications going on and I
[00:46:26] learned about October 7th. Immediately
[00:46:28] that night, I went on my hotel room and
[00:46:33] I recorded a video. I said, I condemn
[00:46:36] this horror. This is not the way uh we
[00:46:39] need to we need to we we need to uh
[00:46:42] condone we we we condemn this act of
[00:46:44] violence. But in the meantime, I said I
[00:46:47] leaned over to my friend, my pastor
[00:46:49] friend, and I said, "I am
[00:46:53] shaking
[00:46:54] because of the level of retaliation that
[00:46:57] the Israeli military is going to
[00:46:59] respond."
[00:47:00] >> Well, you grew up with it, so you knew.
[00:47:03] >> My wife grew up in Gaza Baptist Church.
[00:47:07] Gaza Baptist Church. Not too many people
[00:47:09] know that Baptists have made it all the
[00:47:11] way to Gaza, by the way. No. And Gaza
[00:47:14] Baptist Church was burned. Was bombed.
[00:47:20] There was some
[00:47:21] >> Gaza Baptist Church was bombed.
[00:47:22] >> Yes. Now imagine that First Baptist
[00:47:25] Church of Dallas people were bombed
[00:47:29] >> were of Little Rock.
[00:47:32] >> I believe the whole United States Army
[00:47:35] and Marine and Military and Air Force
[00:47:37] will be going after the perpetrator.
[00:47:40] >> Maybe not. you know it it but yeah no I
[00:47:44] I it would be obvious that that would is
[00:47:46] a crime. I just don't understand and
[00:47:48] I've raised this question you know many
[00:47:50] many times with Christian leaders in the
[00:47:52] United States like what what did the
[00:47:54] Baptists in Gaza do wrong? Why why are
[00:47:57] we paying to bomb their church? Do you
[00:47:59] know
[00:47:59] >> it's not just the Baptists, it's all the
[00:48:01] Palestinian people are being
[00:48:03] collectively punished in Gaza. And what
[00:48:05] happened in Gaza, it's really horrific
[00:48:07] atrocity that no one should be, you
[00:48:10] know, if if it doesn't shake us at our
[00:48:12] core, I don't think we have any
[00:48:14] humanity.
[00:48:14] >> Well, we're Americans, so we have no
[00:48:16] idea what's happened in Gaza. So, why
[00:48:18] don't you tell us?
[00:48:20] >> On in October, there was a bomb that
[00:48:24] that killed 17 Christians.
[00:48:26] historic church was bombed. Fifth
[00:48:29] century church was bombed
[00:48:31] >> in Gaza
[00:48:31] >> in Gaza and killed so many Christians.
[00:48:34] There there is a lady that played the
[00:48:36] piano at Gaza Baptist Church. Her name
[00:48:38] was Ilam Farah. She was an icon, music
[00:48:41] icon in Gaza. Everybody loved her. She
[00:48:43] was 84. She went to her to her house to
[00:48:47] check on the house if it's still
[00:48:48] standing or not. She gets sniped,
[00:48:51] shot in the leg by an Israeli soldier,
[00:48:55] left to bleed to death for three
[00:48:57] agonizing days. She was in the phone
[00:49:00] until her phone was dead on one of my
[00:49:02] closest friends. He was with her on the
[00:49:04] phone. And few weeks later, when they
[00:49:06] went to bury her, they found out that
[00:49:08] the Israeli tank rolled over her body.
[00:49:13] Ilam Farah, she played the piano. She
[00:49:17] was part of the worship team in Gaza
[00:49:18] Baptist Church.
[00:49:21] >> When did this happen?
[00:49:22] >> That was in November 2023.
[00:49:25] So we know it was a vengeance campaign.
[00:49:28] It was a retaliation.
[00:49:28] >> But why a vengeance against 84 year old
[00:49:31] Christian piano players? Like what does
[00:49:33] she have to do with it?
[00:49:34] >> Nahida and Samar Anton, another two
[00:49:37] lady, a lady in her 80s and her
[00:49:39] daughter, they were gunned by an Israeli
[00:49:42] sniper on church ground. Holy holy
[00:49:45] family church that was also later on
[00:49:48] bombed and three people were killed.
[00:49:52] Those are real stories. Those are real
[00:49:54] people who have suffered because of this
[00:49:59] uh military power that is directed on
[00:50:03] them day and day and night. And that
[00:50:06] whole idea is really honestly is is
[00:50:09] getting rid of Palestinians, is pushing
[00:50:11] them out. doesn't matter whether they're
[00:50:12] Christians or or Muslims. That has been
[00:50:15] the strategy. And now it's they're
[00:50:17] taking a different approach in the West
[00:50:18] Bank by suffocating the communities by
[00:50:21] creating as many Israeli settlements as
[00:50:24] possible so they can squeeze the the the
[00:50:27] the communities out. They push them out
[00:50:30] of their land. And when you were a
[00:50:33] child, there were Israeli settlements
[00:50:34] near your your home.
[00:50:36] >> Yes.
[00:50:37] >> Did you ever have positive interactions
[00:50:39] with the settlers? You know, to be
[00:50:41] honest with you, some settlers have no
[00:50:43] idea. They just moved in there. Uh, and
[00:50:46] again, we can't really paint with white
[00:50:48] brush and say all these people are evil,
[00:50:50] but there's a system that is enabling
[00:50:53] this evil to take
[00:50:54] >> some settle it's just cheaper, right, to
[00:50:56] live out there.
[00:50:56] >> They get subsidized and they get
[00:51:00] government subsidies to move into the
[00:51:02] West Bank and they call it Judea and
[00:51:04] Samaria. And unfortunately, going back
[00:51:06] to your questions, uh there is an
[00:51:09] organization, not just one, but there is
[00:51:10] one that I know of and they boast about
[00:51:12] it on their website that they have
[00:51:14] raised and spent $3.5 billion
[00:51:19] to support these settlements and to
[00:51:21] bring people from all over the world to
[00:51:24] return to return to their, you know,
[00:51:27] ancestral homeland of Judea and Samaria.
[00:51:30] and they raised those $3.5 billion
[00:51:34] from evangelical Christians, from
[00:51:37] Christians in the United States. Now, if
[00:51:40] you're American here and you you go to
[00:51:43] church, you love Jesus, you love
[00:51:45] scriptures just like we do, you worship
[00:51:47] every Sunday, you're involved in in
[00:51:49] ministry, you're volunteering at your
[00:51:50] local church, and if you hear the vision
[00:51:53] from your pastors that, hey, we're, you
[00:51:57] know, the Jewish people, they have gone
[00:51:59] under
[00:52:02] severe horrific holocaust during World
[00:52:06] War II.
[00:52:08] And now we have the the opportunity to
[00:52:12] bring some of these survivors back to
[00:52:14] Israel, to their homeland. If you're an
[00:52:16] American watching this and hearing this,
[00:52:18] wow, this sounds really great. This
[00:52:20] sounds very noble. And I agree. I mean,
[00:52:24] I as a Palestinian,
[00:52:26] I want the Jewish people to live in
[00:52:28] safety and dignity,
[00:52:29] >> of course, but it doesn't have to come
[00:52:32] at the expense of the local Christian
[00:52:35] Palestinians and the local Palestinian
[00:52:38] indigenous people who have lived in that
[00:52:40] land for the past 2,000 years. You see,
[00:52:42] what they tell you is that this is a
[00:52:43] great vision. It's, you know, Christian
[00:52:47] when they hear about Zionism, it's a
[00:52:49] compelling vision. It's bringing people
[00:52:52] who don't have any land and having and
[00:52:54] and and create a homeland.
[00:52:56] >> A land without people for a people
[00:52:58] without land.
[00:52:58] >> Yes. But the land had people.
[00:53:00] >> I know.
[00:53:01] >> So what do you do to create room is you
[00:53:03] keep pushing them out. So
[00:53:06] >> can I ask what you referred to Judea and
[00:53:08] Samaria? I know that under Ronda Santis
[00:53:12] uh in in the state of Florida it's now
[00:53:13] like required by law to call it Judea
[00:53:16] and Samaria. what we call the West Bank,
[00:53:17] which was part of Jordan, formerly Trans
[00:53:20] Jordan, whatever. It's but it's
[00:53:22] >> Yes.
[00:53:23] >> Right outside Jerusalem.
[00:53:24] >> Yeah.
[00:53:25] >> All the way to the Jordan River. It's
[00:53:26] the West Bank Jordan River. That area
[00:53:28] was taken from Jordan in the six- day
[00:53:30] war, 1967. Okay.
[00:53:32] >> Yeah.
[00:53:32] >> And so we've called it my whole life the
[00:53:35] West Bank.
[00:53:36] >> Yeah.
[00:53:36] >> And now we're required
[00:53:39] to call it Judea and Samaria. And I
[00:53:41] mean, I guess I don't really care. I
[00:53:42] wonder why some American politicians
[00:53:44] telling me would I have to call a place
[00:53:47] across the ocean, but cuz he's taking a
[00:53:50] lot of money from proponents of this, of
[00:53:52] course, but like why are they so intent
[00:53:55] on forcing me to call it Judea and
[00:53:56] Samaria? I honestly don't understand.
[00:53:58] >> It's not just Florida. I mean, I love
[00:54:00] Florida.
[00:54:00] >> I do too.
[00:54:01] >> It's a great sunshine state. You know, I
[00:54:03] moved here in 2020
[00:54:06] uh because I heard that Governor
[00:54:08] Governor DeSantis banned COVID here.
[00:54:10] >> Amen.
[00:54:11] So we moved here because we love Florida
[00:54:13] and we still enjoy it. But they passed a
[00:54:15] law to call uh
[00:54:18] >> why why is some American telling me that
[00:54:20] >> it's many different states who are who
[00:54:22] who are seeking to to to change the
[00:54:24] name. And for us, you know, I'm a
[00:54:27] Christian. Yes, it's the biblical name.
[00:54:29] That's what what what Judea and Samaria
[00:54:32] was called when Jesus was there. But
[00:54:34] instead of really worrying about calling
[00:54:38] a region a biblical name, why can't we
[00:54:41] apply biblical principles?
[00:54:43] >> No, but I'm just saying like what's the
[00:54:44] So the Israelis are telling our
[00:54:46] lawmakers, you must force your people to
[00:54:49] use these words and they're doing that
[00:54:52] across our society and they say they're
[00:54:54] doing it so they're doing it. But why
[00:54:56] why does it matter to them?
[00:54:58] >> They invoke divine rights. uh they want
[00:55:02] to is they want to make the connection
[00:55:04] that this land
[00:55:07] divinely and theologically belongs to
[00:55:10] one group of people. Now if you look at
[00:55:13] the West Bank, let's break it down.
[00:55:16] There is a legal implication,
[00:55:19] but there's also a moral and theological
[00:55:21] implication. The legal implication, the
[00:55:24] US politicians hate it. They don't like
[00:55:28] to get into the legal uh complexity of
[00:55:31] the West Bank because it's a losing
[00:55:33] case. The whole world agrees that the
[00:55:36] the Israeli settlements are illegally
[00:55:39] built by an occupying force on
[00:55:41] Palestinian land. The land is occupied
[00:55:43] according to United Nation uh fourth
[00:55:46] Geneva Convention, United Nation
[00:55:47] resolution, security council. Even this
[00:55:50] has been the longstanding US policy for
[00:55:53] the past 50 years. I don't know if you
[00:55:56] remember the Hansel memo which
[00:55:58] stipulates that this land is occupied
[00:56:02] and the settlements are illegal. Now
[00:56:05] from different administration the
[00:56:06] language is different. The some
[00:56:08] administration like Obama they call it
[00:56:10] obstacle to peace. Some administration
[00:56:12] call it illegitimate uh settlements that
[00:56:16] are preventing and hindering the the the
[00:56:18] two-state solution. But interestingly,
[00:56:21] in Trump's first administration, when
[00:56:24] Mike Pompeo was the Secretary of State,
[00:56:27] he rescended
[00:56:29] the Hanzel memo and he said those
[00:56:32] Israeli settlements are not per se
[00:56:35] inconsistent with international law,
[00:56:38] whatever that means. But basically,
[00:56:42] these are not illegal. They have a legal
[00:56:46] right to the to Judea and Samaria. for
[00:56:50] me. Okay, I I'm not a politician. I'm
[00:56:52] not a legal expert. I'm a Christian
[00:56:54] minister. I look at the issue from a
[00:56:57] biblical perspective, from a moral
[00:56:59] perspective. What are the biblical
[00:57:02] implications of this? Does God really
[00:57:05] approve
[00:57:07] u displacement
[00:57:09] >> of stealing of land theft? And there's a
[00:57:12] biblical story actually about this
[00:57:14] Tucker. You know when the evil king of
[00:57:17] Israel, Ahab,
[00:57:19] he had an evil woman wife named Jazabel,
[00:57:23] they looked over and they saw a vineyard
[00:57:26] owned by Neabbath
[00:57:28] and they love that that vineyard. They
[00:57:30] said, "Man, we want to take it. That's"
[00:57:34] and being the king of Israel, they could
[00:57:36] have invoked divine rights. He's the
[00:57:37] king appointed ordained by God. But
[00:57:40] unfortunately, he was a dishonorable
[00:57:43] king. He did not obey the ways of the
[00:57:45] lord. So I don't know how much divine
[00:57:47] you know rights he can claim but let's
[00:57:49] say for the sake of argument they they
[00:57:51] claim divine rights. They went and they
[00:57:54] tried to acquire the vineyard legally.
[00:57:57] They offered Nabbath money. Nabbath
[00:57:59] refused to to to to sell. So what do
[00:58:03] they do? They conspire and they kill
[00:58:06] Nabbath and they steal the land and they
[00:58:09] take it. It's the state backed by divine
[00:58:13] rights stealing innocent man's lands.
[00:58:16] >> Didn't I ask did God notice that they
[00:58:18] did this?
[00:58:19] >> Of course he did.
[00:58:20] >> He did. Oh, he did.
[00:58:21] >> He sent the prophet Elijah
[00:58:23] >> to stand before Ahab and tell him what
[00:58:26] you did was wrong. God is going to judge
[00:58:29] you for it. Now, my I wonder as a
[00:58:32] Palestinian Christian
[00:58:33] >> and and then what and then what
[00:58:34] happened? Where are the the the the the
[00:58:38] Elijah of our world? Where is the church
[00:58:43] standing up to this injustice?
[00:58:47] So,
[00:58:47] >> they're cowards and they're making the
[00:58:49] wrong choice. They're making the they're
[00:58:50] going to have to answer for this.
[00:58:52] >> And and and let me be very honest with
[00:58:54] you, Tucker. We can't paint with a wide
[00:58:57] brush. There have been so many great
[00:58:59] American
[00:59:01] missionaries who have come to the Middle
[00:59:03] East, who have labored in the Middle
[00:59:06] East. A lot of great churches have given
[00:59:09] uh sweat and blood for the Middle East.
[00:59:12] They built great schools. We have one in
[00:59:15] Betsah, a evangelical church in Betsah.
[00:59:19] And they have built hospital, they have
[00:59:22] built schools, they have planted
[00:59:23] churches.
[00:59:25] But there is a stream
[00:59:28] of Christians
[00:59:30] that has disproportionate power and
[00:59:33] influence on US policy.
[00:59:37] And it's that policy
[00:59:40] that is inflicting pain and suffering on
[00:59:42] a community like Bet Sahur.
[00:59:45] This is the core issue.
[00:59:46] >> I know.
[00:59:47] >> And they're doing it in the name of the
[00:59:49] Bible where the Bible is innocent.
[00:59:53] I got a lecture this morning from an
[00:59:55] Israeli this this morning. You know, I'm
[00:59:58] not an anti-semite. I abhore
[01:00:00] anti-semitism. It's against my religion.
[01:00:01] I've said that a thousand times and I
[01:00:03] mean it from the if I was an anti-semit
[01:00:04] just say I'm an anti-semite. I am not an
[01:00:05] anti-semitite and I'm never going to
[01:00:07] become one no matter what they say. So
[01:00:09] I'm talking, you know, like what do you
[01:00:11] want me to do to prove I'm not an
[01:00:12] anti-semite?
[01:00:14] 100%.
[01:00:16] Recant your attacks on Christian
[01:00:17] Zionism.
[01:00:19] It wasn't stop saying mean things about
[01:00:21] the Jews. I've never said any mean
[01:00:23] things about the Jews. I don't feel bad
[01:00:24] things about the I'm not mad at the
[01:00:25] Jews. Period. I'm mad, as I've said a
[01:00:28] million times, about my people,
[01:00:31] Christians, distorting the gospel in a
[01:00:33] way that allows theft and murder and the
[01:00:36] degradation of human beings. I just I'll
[01:00:39] never be okay with that. And they're
[01:00:42] that's what they're mad at me about is
[01:00:44] because I've called out Christian
[01:00:45] Zionism because they see that I just had
[01:00:49] this conversation an hour ago so it's
[01:00:50] fresh in mind.
[01:00:51] >> Yes.
[01:00:52] >> They see that as critical. You have to
[01:00:54] have American evangelical pastors
[01:00:58] telling their congregations who are
[01:01:00] sweet people who don't know any better.
[01:01:02] >> Yes.
[01:01:03] >> That God wants you to support the state
[01:01:06] of Israel. Benjamin Netanyahu. That's
[01:01:08] what they they need that.
[01:01:10] >> Yes.
[01:01:10] >> Is that fair? Do you think
[01:01:12] >> what Christian Zionists
[01:01:15] get wrong here is that not because they
[01:01:18] want to create a safe place for the
[01:01:21] Jewish people. That's that could be an
[01:01:23] honorable cause.
[01:01:24] >> Yes, I agree.
[01:01:26] >> But the process, the implication of what
[01:01:29] that means to them, Christian Zionism
[01:01:32] means creating a safe place for the Jews
[01:01:33] where they can feel safe and secure and
[01:01:35] which is honorable, great.
[01:01:36] >> Got it. But for Palestinians, Christian
[01:01:39] Zionism means taking our land, taking
[01:01:43] our resources while declaring that you
[01:01:48] have a divine right. And the descendants
[01:01:50] of the shepherds in the little town of
[01:01:52] Bet Sahur, who have maintained their
[01:01:55] Christian presence for the past 2,000
[01:01:57] years, do not somehow have that same
[01:01:59] divine right. Our ancestors were Jewish.
[01:02:04] Palestinian Christians,
[01:02:06] they first accepted the message of
[01:02:08] Christ. And that church is still intact
[01:02:13] today. As I said,
[01:02:16] some people even converted when Islam
[01:02:18] came to Palestine. Some people
[01:02:20] converted, but they did not convert from
[01:02:22] atheism. Muslims converted from
[01:02:24] Christianity. And probably some Jews
[01:02:26] even converted to Islam. So you might
[01:02:28] have some some Muslims, they can claim
[01:02:31] that they have a Jewish DNA.
[01:02:34] But again, identity changes. It's
[01:02:36] dynamic.
[01:02:37] >> Of course,
[01:02:38] >> it it language changes, but the people
[01:02:41] are there. So, can I think now is a good
[01:02:44] time to ask you to explain what
[01:02:47] Christian Zionism is, and I'm at a
[01:02:49] disadvantage because I'm so ignorant. I
[01:02:52] just didn't grow up around this at all.
[01:02:53] So, as fairly as you can, can you
[01:02:56] explain what what Christian Zionism? And
[01:02:58] I should say, you came to the United
[01:02:59] States and went to Liberty University.
[01:03:00] >> Yes.
[01:03:00] >> Correct.
[01:03:01] >> Yes.
[01:03:02] >> Lots of great people there. Lots of
[01:03:03] Christian scientists there. Lots. So I
[01:03:05] think it's I think you understand it,
[01:03:07] right?
[01:03:07] >> What is it?
[01:03:08] >> And I loved my time at Liberty
[01:03:09] University. So thankful for the great
[01:03:12] education I got there. I had to meet a
[01:03:14] lot of great friends, great professors.
[01:03:17] My life was changed there. I actually
[01:03:19] rededicated my life. Uh and I committed
[01:03:23] my life to service at at Liberty
[01:03:25] University. and I received the vision to
[01:03:27] start Levant Ministries at Liberty. Uh
[01:03:30] which is the organization I now lead. Uh
[01:03:33] and but but here is where you know
[01:03:37] Christian Zionism um have a different
[01:03:40] understanding. It's a theopolitical
[01:03:43] movement that says that God has two
[01:03:47] distinct people with two distinct plans
[01:03:50] and two distinct covenant.
[01:03:53] When Mike Huckabe was asked on um he was
[01:03:56] on a interview in at TBN, Trinity
[01:04:00] Broadcasting Network, and he was asked,
[01:04:02] "What is the verse that guides your
[01:04:04] day-to-day job as a US ambassador in
[01:04:07] Israel?" You know what he said? He said,
[01:04:10] Genesis 12:3,
[01:04:12] I want to be able to bless Israel so I
[01:04:14] can be blessed. I want to secure all the
[01:04:16] blessings for Israel so the United
[01:04:19] States can receive the blessings in
[01:04:21] return.
[01:04:23] So for us, we have to look at this
[01:04:27] theology.
[01:04:29] Do you know what that means?
[01:04:32] To me, as a someone who's interested in
[01:04:33] words, a former editor, bookw writer, I
[01:04:36] care about definitions. And so when
[01:04:39] Christian Zionists say Israel, what are
[01:04:42] they talking about?
[01:04:43] >> That's a great question because as
[01:04:45] Christians, we have to look at the
[01:04:47] scripture through the lens of Christ.
[01:04:50] Christ is the point. Christ is the
[01:04:53] fulfillment. And the way I look at
[01:04:56] scriptures, I look at the Old Testament,
[01:04:59] the the faithful and the righteous
[01:05:00] people of the Old Testament and the
[01:05:02] righteous and the faithful people of the
[01:05:04] New Testament as one faith community.
[01:05:07] They're beautifully connected through
[01:05:09] the cross. The moment that you start
[01:05:12] separating this, this is when you start
[01:05:15] getting into uh different interpretation
[01:05:18] of what Israel means today. Is it the
[01:05:21] government of Israel? Are God's people
[01:05:22] or not? But when we look at the gospel,
[01:05:25] we see Jesus as the very center. We look
[01:05:29] at the new the Old Testament with the
[01:05:32] lens of the gospel. We see Jesus in the
[01:05:35] Old Testament. And what Jesus did is
[01:05:38] very critical and it it really is
[01:05:41] important for us to understand what
[01:05:44] Jesus did in the new covenant he brought
[01:05:46] and how it changed and it transformed
[01:05:49] the old covenant that God had with
[01:05:51] Abraham. Yes, it didn't abolish it. It
[01:05:54] didn't replace it which is you know
[01:05:55] we're not replacement theology. I do not
[01:05:57] agree with replacement theology. God is
[01:05:59] not done with the Jews. God is not done
[01:06:01] with anybody. God wants everybody to
[01:06:04] come to the saving knowledge and to
[01:06:06] enjoy his grace and to enjoy his his his
[01:06:09] blessings. God desires this for God so
[01:06:12] loved the world, right? But what Jesus
[01:06:14] did, he did not replace the Jews, but it
[01:06:17] was a journey that God started with
[01:06:19] Abraham.
[01:06:21] And when they called Genesis 12:3,
[01:06:24] that was a private conversation between
[01:06:26] God and Abraham. And God came to Abraham
[01:06:30] and told him, "You no longer are called
[01:06:31] Abrahams, but you're going to be called
[01:06:33] Abraham, the father with all nations."
[01:06:36] So God's original plan is to redeem all
[01:06:38] nations, is to bless the whole world
[01:06:41] through the seed of Abraham. And when
[01:06:44] you look at the New Testament, you read
[01:06:48] a verse like Galatians 3:16 where it
[01:06:50] says Abraham has one seed. He didn't say
[01:06:55] seeds. And through that seed, you get to
[01:07:00] enjoy all the Abrahamic blessings.
[01:07:04] So what Jesus came to do, and it's that
[01:07:06] seed, of course, it's Christ. And that
[01:07:09] journey that Abraham started with God,
[01:07:12] it's still in motion today. It didn't
[01:07:15] divert. It didn't get replaced. It
[01:07:18] didn't get, oh well, Jesus came and his
[01:07:21] people didn't accept him, so oh, let's
[01:07:23] me go to plan P. There was always bl one
[01:07:26] plan for God's redemption and God's
[01:07:28] salvation. It started in Abraham and it
[01:07:31] culminated in in in Jesus and we are the
[01:07:33] extension of that Abrahamic blessing. So
[01:07:36] if I put my faith and trust in Jesus
[01:07:38] Christ, I get to claim the Abrahamic
[01:07:42] blessings in Genesis 12:3.
[01:07:44] >> Well, it seems that way. And I but I
[01:07:46] guess I don't I mean I have so many
[01:07:47] questions, but I mean first of all, how
[01:07:50] could Christians ever support any
[01:07:53] movement that rejects Jesus?
[01:07:56] I just don't I I don't understand that.
[01:07:58] How could we we we could say we we feel
[01:08:01] so sorry for people who reject Jesus? We
[01:08:03] we want to help them.
[01:08:04] >> In simple terms, I think Christian
[01:08:06] Zionism has replaced Jesus with the
[01:08:08] current state of Israel.
[01:08:09] >> Obviously, that's why I think it's
[01:08:11] heresy. And I don't mean that in a I
[01:08:13] mean like I should be calling anyone
[01:08:14] else a heretic. I've lived such a bad
[01:08:16] life, but and I'm not I hope I don't
[01:08:19] sound self-righteous. I just don't. It's
[01:08:21] like I thought Christianity was about
[01:08:22] following Jesus and Jesus was the key.
[01:08:25] Look,
[01:08:26] >> is it not? You're the you're the
[01:08:27] minister.
[01:08:28] >> What Jesus did, he did two important
[01:08:30] things that we cannot overlook.
[01:08:32] >> He expanded the scope of the promise,
[01:08:35] >> right,
[01:08:35] >> of Abraham
[01:08:36] >> to everybody, right?
[01:08:37] >> To everybody. And he expanded the
[01:08:39] meaning of the promise. Okay. And let me
[01:08:41] unpack this for a little bit for our for
[01:08:44] the viewers to really understand the the
[01:08:46] theological
[01:08:47] importance and significance of this. So
[01:08:49] when he expanded the scope of the
[01:08:51] promise, what is the promise? He
[01:08:54] expanded it from a mere geographical
[01:08:57] location alongside the Mediterranean
[01:09:00] coastline
[01:09:01] >> to include the whole earth.
[01:09:03] >> Yes,
[01:09:03] >> the New Testament spells it out. Oh,
[01:09:06] >> the Apostle Paul, you know, in his
[01:09:08] letters to the Romans, Romans 4:13, he
[01:09:11] said, "By faith, God made Abraham the
[01:09:15] heir of the whole world."
[01:09:17] >> Exactly. I have read it.
[01:09:19] >> So, for God so loved the world that he
[01:09:22] gave his only son that whosoever, Right.
[01:09:25] So not only expanded the geographical
[01:09:29] location of the land, he also expanded
[01:09:32] the ethnic line of the people to include
[01:09:35] every tribe, every nation, every tongue.
[01:09:38] >> It says that again and again and again
[01:09:40] and again. And that's the whole that's a
[01:09:41] story of Acts. That's a story of
[01:09:43] Revelation. It's a story of the whole
[01:09:44] New Testament. And that's what Jesus
[01:09:46] instructed his disciples to do. He said,
[01:09:48] "Hey, leave your nationalistic
[01:09:51] aspiration aside. We have a kingdom to
[01:09:54] build." The kingdom of God is at hand.
[01:09:57] The kingdom of God is among you. So they
[01:10:01] let go of their dreams to build the
[01:10:03] kingdom for Israel and they went and
[01:10:06] they paid for their life for the
[01:10:07] kingdom, the eternal kingdom of God. So
[01:10:11] Jesus expanded the geography. That's he
[01:10:14] is the locust of the land. He is the one
[01:10:18] that speaks in Hebrew that you know if
[01:10:20] we enter in Jesus we find rest. the land
[01:10:23] does not give us rest anymore. So he
[01:10:25] expanded the geography. He expanded the
[01:10:27] ethnic line to include every nation ever
[01:10:29] tried. And that always, by the way,
[01:10:31] Takar, it's been always God's plan that
[01:10:33] way. In Psalm the Old Testament chapter
[01:10:35] 2:8, it says, "Ask me and I will give
[01:10:38] you the nations as your inheritance." So
[01:10:42] God's plan has been always the whole
[01:10:44] world, redeeming the whole world,
[01:10:46] restoring the whole world, and it's been
[01:10:48] always inclusive for all people, all
[01:10:51] ethnicities. So, it's so clear and it's
[01:10:53] clear in Jesus's ministry. I'm spending
[01:10:55] the year just reading the four gospels
[01:10:57] again and again and that jumps out at
[01:10:59] me. I mean, who does who does Jesus
[01:11:02] praise most?
[01:11:04] The the Roman officer. I've not seen
[01:11:07] anyone with faith like this in Israel.
[01:11:09] Right. Some pagan guy.
[01:11:10] >> Yes.
[01:11:11] >> Right. So, but but the meaning of the
[01:11:13] promise and this is important. What does
[01:11:16] it mean? Do we inherit
[01:11:20] uh a holy land between the river and the
[01:11:23] Mediterranean or does it mean something
[01:11:25] else? The meaning of that promise have
[01:11:29] also been transformed. It's not just the
[01:11:31] scope of the promise. It's the meaning
[01:11:33] of the promise, right?
[01:11:34] >> From temporary to eternal, from physical
[01:11:39] to spiritual,
[01:11:41] >> from conditional because it was
[01:11:42] conditional by the way. You know, he
[01:11:44] didn't just give them the land and say
[01:11:46] this is your land. It's by it's God's
[01:11:47] lands by the way. He is the landlord.
[01:11:50] And the people that were given the land,
[01:11:52] they were tenants and they have to obey
[01:11:54] the commandments of the Lord. They have
[01:11:56] to love their neighbors. They have to
[01:11:59] take care of the foreigners among them.
[01:12:02] And when they don't obey the covenant
[01:12:05] that was given to them, God always
[01:12:08] kicked them out.
[01:12:09] >> Oh yeah. They taken to Babylon.
[01:12:11] >> Yeah. Yes. Twice. and and and
[01:12:14] the Old Testament gives graphic language
[01:12:17] when it describes the the the you know
[01:12:19] not for Israel not obeying the the laws
[01:12:22] of the Lord. It says the land will vomit
[01:12:24] you out. Excuse my language.
[01:12:26] So it was conditional when it was given
[01:12:29] to Abraham, but in Jesus it's secure.
[01:12:33] It's eternal. It's no longer. And you
[01:12:36] know what really makes me fall in love
[01:12:39] with Jesus and the patriarchs
[01:12:43] and the fathers, the church fathers and
[01:12:46] the church throughout history. And the
[01:12:48] Palestinian church really understand
[01:12:50] this because they truly understand the
[01:12:53] meaning of the covenant. Abraham, Isaac,
[01:12:56] and Jacob. It spells it out in Hebrews
[01:12:58] that they were not they were eagerly
[01:13:00] looking for the new Jerusalem
[01:13:05] whose architect and builder is God. They
[01:13:10] were not fixated on a mere strip of
[01:13:13] land. That's temporary. That's going to
[01:13:16] be gone. We should be focused on what's
[01:13:19] eternal. And obviously when Jesus came
[01:13:21] and he was in John 18 when he was being
[01:13:24] tried before Pilate
[01:13:27] the charge was are you a king? Are you
[01:13:30] threatening me? Am I you are you a
[01:13:33] threat to my kingdom and my
[01:13:35] >> Jesus said yes I am a king but my
[01:13:38] kingdom is not from this world.
[01:13:41] >> My kingdom is not from here. Why are we
[01:13:44] bringing back a pre-Christian
[01:13:47] territorial mindset
[01:13:49] to the church today?
[01:13:51] >> Well, exactly. And and it is
[01:13:52] pre-Christian. It's not Western at all.
[01:13:55] It's Eastern. And collective punishment
[01:13:57] is the sign that we're not dealing with
[01:13:59] a western mindset at all because we
[01:14:02] reject collective punishment. You you I
[01:14:04] may be mad at you. I can't kill your
[01:14:05] kids. Not allowed.
[01:14:06] >> Yes.
[01:14:07] >> Um
[01:14:08] >> and there are some sincere
[01:14:09] dispensationalists. Let me say this. I
[01:14:11] have some dispensational friends and
[01:14:13] Christians should debate this
[01:14:14] vigorously, but it should stay in the
[01:14:17] seminary. It should be staying within
[01:14:18] the walls of the church.
[01:14:19] >> Well, that's the problem. So, I haven't
[01:14:20] even gotten involved in it because I'm
[01:14:22] just too ignorant. Okay. I when you said
[01:14:25] replacement theology, I don't know what
[01:14:26] that is and I'm not going to learn. All
[01:14:27] I know is that Christianity, my read of
[01:14:29] it is just focus on Jesus and you will
[01:14:32] be transformed. And so, I'm just going
[01:14:33] to stick with that. But as a political
[01:14:35] matter and that's what I do cover and
[01:14:36] have my whole life. I don't understand
[01:14:39] what Ambassador Huckabe for example is
[01:14:42] saying when he says bless Israel. Okay.
[01:14:44] What is Israel? So my read of Genesis is
[01:14:47] it goes from like a tributary of the
[01:14:49] Euphrates in Iraq
[01:14:52] all the way, you know, to to the Nile.
[01:14:56] Like I So that's like six countries. I
[01:14:59] What is that? What are the boundaries?
[01:15:00] >> And that's still too small for God. of
[01:15:03] course as a theological matter but I I
[01:15:05] think if we're speaking in political
[01:15:07] terms this is a government
[01:15:08] >> right
[01:15:09] >> run by you know secular people by and
[01:15:11] large
[01:15:12] >> yes
[01:15:12] >> and they're saying God gave us this land
[01:15:14] okay what land what are the boundaries
[01:15:16] we should at least define the terms
[01:15:17] second who's we what does it mean who
[01:15:20] are the people who inherited this so the
[01:15:22] prime minister of Israel is not
[01:15:24] religious he doesn't keep the Sabbath or
[01:15:25] keep kosher I'm not attacking him I'm
[01:15:27] just saying like
[01:15:28] >> then what are you talking about are you
[01:15:29] saying you have a genetic inheritance
[01:15:31] like what okay Can Can someone who
[01:15:33] converts to Judaism
[01:15:35] >> claims divine right from Brooklyn, New
[01:15:37] York?
[01:15:37] >> I don't even want to have these
[01:15:39] conversations. They're the ones pushing
[01:15:40] them. I think people I'm happy to let
[01:15:42] people practice their own religions. I
[01:15:44] don't want to get involved. I don't want
[01:15:45] to know everything about Mormonism or
[01:15:47] Islam or whatever. It's fine.
[01:15:49] >> But as long as you're saying you have a
[01:15:50] right to my money and your parents' land
[01:15:54] on the basis of this promise in Genesis,
[01:15:58] I have a right to ask you what the heck
[01:15:59] you're talking about. Did you know that
[01:16:02] Israel goes out of its way to prevent
[01:16:04] Messianic believers from making aliyah?
[01:16:08] >> No.
[01:16:09] >> Jewish believers in Jesus, if they find
[01:16:12] out that you believed in Jesus,
[01:16:15] they don't they don't give you the right
[01:16:16] to immigrate to Israel.
[01:16:18] >> What?
[01:16:19] >> So, whose land
[01:16:21] >> is that true?
[01:16:22] >> Whose promise? Yeah. I have a lot of
[01:16:24] Jewish friends who are believers in
[01:16:26] Jesus and they share with me
[01:16:27] >> and they can't move back to Israel and
[01:16:30] get all the rights of
[01:16:32] >> not as
[01:16:33] >> so they're really okay. So now we're
[01:16:34] talking like present day concrete
[01:16:38] political realities.
[01:16:40] There are two claims that they could
[01:16:41] potentially be making. One is is uh
[01:16:45] faith-based. So I believe in this
[01:16:47] religion called Judaism. And we could
[01:16:48] debate what that religion is. Is it
[01:16:50] talmudic or rabbitic? Whatever. That's a
[01:16:52] whole separate conversation that I don't
[01:16:53] want to have, but like they're pushing
[01:16:54] this,
[01:16:54] >> but it's either faith-based. I believe
[01:16:56] in this
[01:16:57] >> or it's blood- based, it's genetic.
[01:17:00] >> They have also historical claims say
[01:17:02] Jews been here. We have
[01:17:04] >> But who are the Jews then?
[01:17:05] >> They
[01:17:06] >> like, do you have more DNA? I don't know
[01:17:08] if if you even know the answer, but do
[01:17:10] you if we were to say, okay, who lived
[01:17:12] in first century Palestine, current day
[01:17:15] Israel, are you more closely related to
[01:17:18] those people, or is Benjamin Netanyahu
[01:17:19] more closely related to those people?
[01:17:21] >> They should do DNA tests and see. And I
[01:17:23] did my DNA test. Palestinian Christians
[01:17:26] are Levventine of origin.
[01:17:29] >> So, it's likely that you have more
[01:17:32] Jewish ancestors than Benjamin
[01:17:33] Netanyahu, family's from Europe,
[01:17:35] >> probably.
[01:17:36] >> Okay. So, so then it can't be genetic
[01:17:39] because Right.
[01:17:40] >> Yeah. Well, again, as Christians, we
[01:17:42] have to put the gospel lens.
[01:17:44] >> I agree. We can't ignore what Jesus did.
[01:17:47] And this is the significance, you know,
[01:17:49] in when Jesus went into Nazareth, his
[01:17:52] hometown synagogue on a Saturday.
[01:17:55] >> He was baptized, went in the wilderness,
[01:17:56] got tried with the devil, overcame with
[01:17:58] scripture, and then he went to his
[01:18:00] hometown. the scroll from Isaiah was
[01:18:03] handed to them and he he said this is
[01:18:05] the Nazareth manifesto. is the first
[01:18:07] sermon he's ever preached Jesus okay
[01:18:11] started launched launched his ministry
[01:18:12] in Nazareth and it's so beautiful he
[01:18:14] said the spirit of the Lord is upon me
[01:18:16] he has sent me to set the captive free
[01:18:20] to bring sight to the blind is to bring
[01:18:23] proclaim the good news to the poor
[01:18:26] everybody in the synagogue were so happy
[01:18:28] and remember the context it was very a
[01:18:31] lot of tension between the Jews and the
[01:18:33] Romans so the Jews were waiting for the
[01:18:35] Messiah But they were waiting for a
[01:18:37] military liberator. They were waiting
[01:18:39] for a politician to come and lead them
[01:18:41] against the Romans. But then Jesus gave
[01:18:45] two sermon illustrations.
[01:18:47] One about a widow from Sidon which is
[01:18:51] current modern day of Lebanon. He said
[01:18:53] not because there were in so many widows
[01:18:55] in Israel that Elijah was sent to the
[01:18:59] Sidonian widow.
[01:19:01] >> Okay, a foreigner. Keep in mind,
[01:19:03] >> when there were lots of needy widows in
[01:19:05] Israel at the time,
[01:19:05] >> but he went to a foreigner and not
[01:19:08] because there weren't so many people
[01:19:10] with leprosy, which is a a skin disease.
[01:19:12] >> Yes.
[01:19:13] >> That God's grace through Elisha,
[01:19:15] Elijah's servant, reached a Syrian army
[01:19:19] commander
[01:19:20] whose name is non. So Jesus is saying
[01:19:24] the foreigner gets to enjoy God's
[01:19:27] blessings and God's favor. And the enemy
[01:19:31] from Oram gets to enjoy God's blessings
[01:19:34] and God's favor. When they heard this,
[01:19:37] they were furious. They took him to the
[01:19:40] edge of the town that was built on and
[01:19:41] they wanted to throw him over,
[01:19:43] >> murder him. Yeah.
[01:19:44] >> So Jesus's message, if we keep it
[01:19:48] central and focus, it disrupts all this
[01:19:51] m exclusive mindset. Why can't we share
[01:19:55] the land? Why can't we live in peace? We
[01:19:58] are extending an olive branch and saying
[01:20:01] let's find obviously there is 7 million
[01:20:03] Jews and 7 million Palestinians living
[01:20:06] currently between the river and the sea.
[01:20:10] Obviously
[01:20:12] they're not going to kick the
[01:20:13] Palestinians out. Although they've been
[01:20:16] trying very very hard to do that and had
[01:20:19] Egypt opened the borders in Gaza I think
[01:20:21] the whole population would have been
[01:20:23] pushed out and they are trying to do it
[01:20:26] very very closely to the Christians in
[01:20:29] Betah right now by bringing many
[01:20:31] different settlements and making life
[01:20:33] extremely miserable restricted movement
[01:20:35] and all of that. So obviously the people
[01:20:38] are still there. They're not going to
[01:20:40] kick us out. The other option is that
[01:20:42] the Palestinians are going to kick the
[01:20:43] Israelis out. And for me as a Christian
[01:20:45] Palestinian, I don't want to see that
[01:20:46] happen. I don't want to see another
[01:20:48] tragedy inflicted upon the Jewish
[01:20:50] people. So the bottom line, and this is
[01:20:53] the posture, and this is the the
[01:20:55] attitude, and this is the the the the
[01:20:58] position that every single
[01:21:00] follower of Jesus must adopt and follow.
[01:21:04] Let's find a way to share the land.
[01:21:08] Let's find a way to make peace instead
[01:21:12] of getting caught in end time scenarios,
[01:21:16] something speculative sometime in the
[01:21:18] future.
[01:21:19] >> What is that?
[01:21:20] >> Or or you know preferring another group
[01:21:24] of people over another. It's
[01:21:27] superiority.
[01:21:28] It's it's becoming an ethnostate. Are we
[01:21:30] going to keep it as an ethnostate or can
[01:21:32] we find a diplomatic solution? The
[01:21:35] danger is when Christian politicians
[01:21:38] start to mix the politics with theology
[01:21:42] and they come up with this formula that
[01:21:45] is indigestible,
[01:21:48] hard to solve, solves confusion and it
[01:21:52] keeps people on the sideline instead of
[01:21:55] actively engaging and becoming
[01:21:57] peacemakers. Well, it boy, you like
[01:22:01] every you know all the the Levventine
[01:22:04] peoples are so diplomatic. It's like
[01:22:06] unbelievable. Um
[01:22:08] yeah, it's way worse than that. I mean,
[01:22:10] you wind up I mean, as you as I know,
[01:22:12] you know, you wind up with Christian
[01:22:14] politicians who are constantly invoking
[01:22:15] the name of Jesus supporting the murder
[01:22:19] of their fellow Christians
[01:22:21] in the Levant. So, like that is ve I
[01:22:25] think that's very serious. I don't think
[01:22:27] you should do that. I I think you're
[01:22:29] going to suffer for that. Like, don't do
[01:22:31] that. How can you excuse or aid in the
[01:22:36] murder of innocents in the name of
[01:22:38] Jesus? And I've said this directly to a
[01:22:40] bunch of these politicians cuz I I get
[01:22:43] very upset about it.
[01:22:44] >> And they're like under a spell like they
[01:22:46] don't
[01:22:48] even in private. They're like, "Well, we
[01:22:50] have to less that." Last December, the
[01:22:53] state of Israel, the foreign ministry of
[01:22:55] the state of Israel sponsored a summit
[01:22:59] in Jerusalem.
[01:23:01] They brought 1,000 US pastors
[01:23:04] to Israel to attend military briefings
[01:23:08] to
[01:23:09] >> military briefings.
[01:23:10] >> Yes. The head of the state was there.
[01:23:12] The prime minister was there. They were
[01:23:15] commissioning them as ambassadors not
[01:23:18] for Jesus but for the state of Israel.
[01:23:21] They were talking about this unholy
[01:23:24] alliance
[01:23:26] being formed.
[01:23:27] >> Oh, they attacked me by name. I know,
[01:23:28] >> right? And they attacked you and all of
[01:23:30] that. But what really caught my my
[01:23:33] attention, Tucker, when I was reading
[01:23:36] over the website of that summit, I was
[01:23:40] reading some notes and some guy guide
[01:23:42] guidelines, dos and don'ts. One of the
[01:23:44] guidelines, it's a Christian ministry
[01:23:47] also who's doing who's organizing this
[01:23:49] with the foreign ministry affairs.
[01:23:52] One of the guidelines stated that do not
[01:23:55] speak of the name of Jesus. Preaching is
[01:23:59] not allowed in Jerusalem.
[01:24:02] >> Express your faith through acts of
[01:24:04] kindness and all that, but do not
[01:24:06] mention Jesus.
[01:24:07] >> Why?
[01:24:08] >> When I read that, my mind went back all
[01:24:11] the way to the book of Acts, chapter 5.
[01:24:16] When the spiritual elites in Jerusalem,
[01:24:18] they summoned Peter and the disciples,
[01:24:20] and you know what they told him? Do not
[01:24:22] speak of the name of Jesus.
[01:24:25] Imagine
[01:24:27] those pastors coming to Jerusalem
[01:24:30] to not be able to share their faith and
[01:24:33] to share about their Christ and their
[01:24:35] Messiah, the hope. That's one thing. The
[01:24:37] other thing, none of these pastors, they
[01:24:40] went and they prayed over dead stones.
[01:24:42] They went over and prayed over the
[01:24:43] Western Walls, which is, you know, fine,
[01:24:45] they can do that. But none of them
[01:24:48] stepped a foot in a Christian church.
[01:24:51] No,
[01:24:52] >> none of them visited the local Christian
[01:24:55] population. Who is
[01:24:56] >> they didn't go to the church of the holy
[01:24:58] supplr?
[01:24:59] >> Not to my knowledge. It wasn't part of
[01:25:01] the itinary.
[01:25:03] >> How can a church of the holy supplr
[01:25:05] obviously one of the most holy places in
[01:25:07] Christendom. It's where Christians
[01:25:09] believe Jesus's tomb was. Supplicer
[01:25:11] tomb.
[01:25:11] >> Yes.
[01:25:12] >> And it's a wonderful place. Amazing
[01:25:14] place. One of the great places in the
[01:25:16] world in my opinion. How could you not
[01:25:18] go there if you're a Christian minister?
[01:25:21] Like
[01:25:21] >> Mike Johnson, the speaker of the house.
[01:25:24] >> Oh yes.
[01:25:25] >> He's he's a very prominent evangelical
[01:25:29] third in line presidency. Last August he
[01:25:33] went to Israel. He prayed to the Western
[01:25:36] Wall. He went to a settlement in the
[01:25:38] West Bank and he planted trees in those
[01:25:42] settlements in the West Bank. And he
[01:25:45] declared that this Judeans and Samaran
[01:25:48] hills belong to the Jewish people by
[01:25:52] divine right.
[01:25:55] What
[01:25:56] >> you're going to be so punished for this.
[01:25:57] We're going to be punished for this. I'm
[01:25:58] just telling you.
[01:25:59] >> He never interacted and met with the you
[01:26:03] know people go and visit the dead stones
[01:26:05] but they forget about the living stones.
[01:26:07] There are people there who are suffering
[01:26:11] because
[01:26:13] of this system that keeps oppressing
[01:26:16] them and applying pressure and their
[01:26:18] numbers are shrinking. The people are
[01:26:20] are leaving and people throw this
[01:26:23] number. Well, it's it's because of the
[01:26:26] other pressures. No, Israel is the only
[01:26:28] place in the Middle East, the only
[01:26:29] democracy in the Middle East that
[01:26:32] Christians feel respected and protected.
[01:26:36] you know, the prime minister of Israel.
[01:26:38] >> What year were you born?
[01:26:39] >> I was born in 1980.
[01:26:41] >> Okay. So, you grew up under the Israeli
[01:26:44] government as a Christian.
[01:26:45] >> Yeah. And I watch also the Oslo Accord
[01:26:47] and I
[01:26:48] >> Yeah. So, I mean, like I'm talking
[01:26:49] you're sitting right here. Is that what
[01:26:50] do you think when you hear that?
[01:26:52] >> And I and I still minister there and we
[01:26:53] still our ministry still serves in the
[01:26:55] Palestinian territories and we serve in
[01:26:58] Jordan and we serve in Egypt. And our
[01:27:00] ministry is focused on reaching young
[01:27:02] people, equipping them and empowering
[01:27:04] them so they can be agents of change in
[01:27:07] their communities so they can become
[01:27:10] peacemakers. This is why I left my
[01:27:11] secular job in DC, a very successful job
[01:27:14] and committed my life to this mission
[01:27:17] because the Christian presence in the
[01:27:19] Middle East is at the brink of
[01:27:21] extension. If we can't do if we don't do
[01:27:23] anything about it, especially in Bets
[01:27:25] right now, there'll be no Christians
[01:27:27] left. But just to be clear, under the
[01:27:29] Israelis, it's on the at the point of
[01:27:32] extinction. Having survived the Romans
[01:27:35] and the Crusaders and the Ottomans
[01:27:37] >> and the English Israelis that the
[01:27:40] Christians are about to go to extinct.
[01:27:41] >> This is exactly why I am
[01:27:45] not going to be silent anymore. Not
[01:27:47] because I'm not an activist. I don't go
[01:27:49] on podcasts and just start talking. But
[01:27:52] when I see something against the values
[01:27:54] that we believe in the biblical values,
[01:27:58] against the character of God, I have to
[01:28:02] be that prophetic voice and say, "Not in
[01:28:05] our name." Jesus showed us a better way.
[01:28:09] Jesus taught his followers to be the
[01:28:12] salt, to be the light, to be the
[01:28:15] peacemaker. He entrusted us with the
[01:28:17] ministry of reconciliation. How much
[01:28:19] reconciliation efforts are we doing?
[01:28:21] We're given money and billions of
[01:28:25] dollars to build these settlements.
[01:28:28] So,
[01:28:30] and taking the land from Christians, but
[01:28:32] we're we're we're spending little to no
[01:28:35] money in peace initiatives, in
[01:28:37] reconciliation efforts, in
[01:28:39] understanding, in mutual understand. And
[01:28:40] there are so many Christianled
[01:28:42] organizations on the ground that are
[01:28:45] doing amazing work in in in raising up
[01:28:48] the next generation. That's the whole
[01:28:50] reason I'm putting my life on the line,
[01:28:53] not to see uh Palestinian Christians and
[01:28:58] the next generation of Palestinians go
[01:29:00] hopeless and in despair.
[01:29:02] >> Are you I mean the violence and the
[01:29:04] worship of violence there is really like
[01:29:06] no place I'm aware of in the world.
[01:29:09] And you know
[01:29:13] people who follow this already know
[01:29:14] that. And everybody's afraid. Yes.
[01:29:16] >> I have noticed when we're going to
[01:29:18] Israel and more people have called me,
[01:29:20] you know, oo be careful. Everyone's
[01:29:22] afraid. Are you afraid?
[01:29:26] >> Absolutely. I mean the people we serve
[01:29:30] in Bethlehem
[01:29:32] when we tell the parents that we're
[01:29:34] taking your kids to Jerusalem whenever
[01:29:36] Israelis allow us to get permits it's
[01:29:39] becoming really very rare now that
[01:29:42] Israelis would allow Christians from
[01:29:44] Bethlehem which is 5 km away to go and
[01:29:46] spend a day in Jerusalem but when we do
[01:29:49] get their permits and we tell them
[01:29:50] >> you don't get permit Christians in
[01:29:51] Jerusale I mean in Bethlehem have
[01:29:53] difficulty going to Jerusalem 3 miles
[01:29:55] away. Oh, absolutely. The whole thing is
[01:29:58] the system is set up to restrict the
[01:30:00] movement to only you have to apply
[01:30:03] through the Israeli militaries to get
[01:30:05] permission to go from a Palestinian uh
[01:30:08] city to an Israeli cities or Israeli
[01:30:10] control cities. Think about it. I mean,
[01:30:12] look at the West Bank. It's like a Swiss
[01:30:13] cheese.
[01:30:16] There are holes on this Swiss cheese.
[01:30:18] Those are the Palestinian cities. They
[01:30:20] live in 165 enclaves throughout the West
[01:30:23] Bank. But Israel controls the whole
[01:30:26] cheese
[01:30:27] militarily
[01:30:29] and they apply pressure on these uh
[01:30:33] Palestinian cities. Some people even
[01:30:35] call it the holy Swiss cheese.
[01:30:39] So when Palestinians want to go from one
[01:30:41] Palestinian city to another, they have
[01:30:43] to drive on specific roads going through
[01:30:46] specific checkpoints, roadblocks. And um
[01:30:50] around every city there are iron gates
[01:30:54] that Israel seals off every time they
[01:30:57] feel like it. Our ministry director was
[01:30:59] coming back from a trip from Jericho to
[01:31:02] Bethlehem. A drive should take him about
[01:31:04] 354 minutes. He got stuck at one of the
[01:31:08] checkpoints for 8 hours.
[01:31:12] He got hungry. He ordered food on Door
[01:31:14] Dash. Came through a motorcycle,
[01:31:16] delivered pizza for him, but he got
[01:31:18] stuck there.
[01:31:19] for eight hours and he'd had a team of
[01:31:22] ministers from the Netherlands and they
[01:31:24] were all stuck together. They saw it
[01:31:26] firsthand. Lines and lines of trucks and
[01:31:28] Palestinian cars. Why? Because the
[01:31:31] Israeli soldier on that checkpoint felt
[01:31:34] like taking a nap.
[01:31:37] 8 hours. This is the daily reality. This
[01:31:40] is not random. A trip that will, you
[01:31:43] know, if you had a medical emergency,
[01:31:46] you miss it. If you have an job
[01:31:49] interview, if you want to go from
[01:31:51] Bethlehem to Ramla, from Jericho to uh
[01:31:54] any other Palestinian town, Hebron, you
[01:31:58] will have to go through these
[01:32:01] you will have to navigate through the
[01:32:02] Swiss cheese. Uh and sometimes you get
[01:32:06] shot at randomly
[01:32:08] at gunpoint. I was with a a group of um
[01:32:13] uh church leaders
[01:32:16] from uh from Alabama. Took them to the
[01:32:19] West Bank. Went through Jordan and then
[01:32:22] one of the checkpoint that leads to
[01:32:24] Jerusalem.
[01:32:26] We got stopped. Where is your passport?
[01:32:29] Everybody held the American passport. I
[01:32:31] had my American passport, which very I'm
[01:32:33] very proud of.
[01:32:35] We held it. But the soldier profiled me
[01:32:38] out of all the 10 church leaders and he
[01:32:41] said, "You, where is your Palestinian
[01:32:42] ID?" I gave him my Palestinian ID and he
[01:32:45] said, "You're not allowed through this
[01:32:46] checkpoint. You have to go through
[01:32:48] Colombia, which is you have to walk on
[01:32:51] foot. You You're not allowed to."
[01:32:54] >> Did you say, "Son, I pay your salary.
[01:32:57] I'm an American citizen. Don't speak to
[01:32:59] me like that."
[01:32:59] >> I told him, "You are embarrassing the
[01:33:02] state of Israel in front of our American
[01:33:04] friends who I brought from Alabama. They
[01:33:06] watched the whole thing. Some of them
[01:33:07] they broke in tears. They say, "What is
[01:33:09] this?"
[01:33:10] >> And what happened?
[01:33:12] >> And we made a U-turn and went to the
[01:33:14] other checkpoint.
[01:33:16] >> But I mean, okay, you pay for this.
[01:33:20] Like, you're an American taxpayer.
[01:33:21] >> Palestinian Christian Americans
[01:33:24] specifically, we feel betrayed on two
[01:33:27] levels.
[01:33:28] >> Yeah.
[01:33:29] We pay taxes. We work so hard to fund
[01:33:33] this system. In the meantime, our sacred
[01:33:37] text and our sacred scripture is used
[01:33:40] against us. You don't belong here. God
[01:33:43] gave this land to somebody else. So, our
[01:33:46] money and our scripture is being flipped
[01:33:50] on us and weaponized against us. I mean,
[01:33:53] I'm an Episcopalian from La Hoya. I've
[01:33:55] got nothing to do with any of this at
[01:33:56] all. And it makes me just on justice
[01:33:59] grounds and decency grounds and
[01:34:01] Christian grounds, it makes me like
[01:34:03] crazy. I have to say prayers to calm
[01:34:05] down. How do you how do you stay?
[01:34:07] >> That's why we need we need to raise
[01:34:08] awareness. I love the American church so
[01:34:11] much. I believe there's and I believe in
[01:34:14] the promise of America, Tucker. I
[01:34:16] believe America can play a significant
[01:34:19] role in bringing peace and prosperity to
[01:34:21] the Middle East, which is that's the
[01:34:24] state of the intention. But the way we
[01:34:25] go about it is sometimes it contradicts
[01:34:28] biblical values.
[01:34:32] Um, so you're an American and you have
[01:34:36] the blue passport, you're a taxpayer,
[01:34:39] you get mistreated by the Israeli
[01:34:42] government, the IDF, which you also pay
[01:34:45] for, holding a weapon made in your
[01:34:47] country that you paid for, and
[01:34:51] you have an ambassador who serves
[01:34:54] supposedly your country at the US
[01:34:56] embassy in Jerusalem.
[01:34:58] So, have you called Mike Huckabe about
[01:35:00] this?
[01:35:02] >> We have given up on politicians. We have
[01:35:05] given up.
[01:35:05] >> He's not a politician. He is an emissary
[01:35:07] of the president who works for the
[01:35:09] United States State Department. I'm the
[01:35:10] son of an ambassador. I know how this
[01:35:11] works. And his job is to reflect the
[01:35:15] views of his president
[01:35:17] >> and to defend his country in a foreign
[01:35:19] country. He represents America's
[01:35:21] interests in a foreign country.
[01:35:22] >> That's not what he said on the last TBN
[01:35:24] interview. He said, "My job is to secure
[01:35:26] the blessings for Israel so America can
[01:35:29] get blessed."
[01:35:31] So his primary concern is really
[01:35:33] blessing Israel. But what that means,
[01:35:35] >> Has America been blessed by this policy,
[01:35:36] do you think? I've lived here for 56
[01:35:38] years. I don't think it's been blessed
[01:35:39] by this policy at all.
[01:35:41] >> I don't think
[01:35:41] >> I don't see the blessings.
[01:35:42] >> I don't think this is how God views
[01:35:45] blessings. You see, we are blessed in
[01:35:48] Christ. That's what the American church
[01:35:50] needs to get. Christ in Christ. Christ
[01:35:54] in you is hope of glory.
[01:35:57] >> Yes.
[01:35:57] >> What else do you really want? That's the
[01:36:01] blessings that we get to enjoy. But in
[01:36:03] the meantime, we want to live in a
[01:36:05] society that is fair, that is based on
[01:36:07] justice, based on human dignity. And we
[01:36:10] cherish these values, these American
[01:36:12] values. And these are based on biblical
[01:36:15] values. And some people make the
[01:36:17] argument that the entire western
[01:36:18] civilization is based b is based on
[01:36:21] these values. Of course it is. But when
[01:36:22] I see, you know, a regime in the Middle
[01:36:25] East that is claiming to be the only
[01:36:28] democracy in the Middle East and it's
[01:36:30] the extension of the West
[01:36:33] and they're not holding they're not
[01:36:37] living up to these biblical values, then
[01:36:40] they need to be held accountable.
[01:36:42] >> Yes. I Well, I couldn't agree more. or
[01:36:44] my whole life has been sidetracked by
[01:36:46] this question in the past few months
[01:36:47] because I feel it so strongly and I I I
[01:36:49] never wanted to have this debate but
[01:36:51] whatever. Um but just to the question of
[01:36:54] Huckabe his job is to represent you and
[01:36:58] your government. So if you called him
[01:37:00] and don't want you know Huckabe is not
[01:37:02] the most guilty person I know him but I
[01:37:05] just have to ask like could you call
[01:37:07] Huckabe's could you call the US embassy
[01:37:08] in Jerusalem and say hey I'm an American
[01:37:10] citizen and I'm being some guy with a
[01:37:12] gun is like pulling me out of the car.
[01:37:14] Yeah, but how would you have a
[01:37:16] conversation with somebody who says
[01:37:19] Palestinians don't exist? Who says
[01:37:22] Palestinian there are no such thing as
[01:37:24] Palestinian?
[01:37:25] >> He said that.
[01:37:26] >> Yes. Is on tape.
[01:37:28] >> What does that mean? Don't exist.
[01:37:30] >> That means they're invented people. They
[01:37:32] Oh, they they're not indigenous to the
[01:37:34] land. They came from somewhere. And
[01:37:37] >> where did they come from? Well, they
[01:37:39] claim that Palestinians came from
[01:37:41] neighboring countries to prevent the
[01:37:43] Jewish state from being established.
[01:37:45] They don't even recognize that these
[01:37:48] people have been on the land since the
[01:37:51] shepherds at least.
[01:37:53] >> Well, we can prove that since we've
[01:37:54] decoded the human genome, we don't have
[01:37:56] to guess about any of this. We give
[01:37:57] everybody in the we could give all 14
[01:38:00] million people in this zone DNA test and
[01:38:03] we could find out who's got the longest
[01:38:04] connection to land. Couldn't we do that?
[01:38:06] >> Yes, absolutely. for me and even not
[01:38:10] just the ambassador but also to I want
[01:38:13] to appeal to the broader evangelical
[01:38:16] community and this is my tribe.
[01:38:19] I
[01:38:22] justice,
[01:38:24] human rights, safety and security is not
[01:38:26] a zero sum game.
[01:38:29] Loving Israelis does not mean ignoring
[01:38:32] the suffering of the Palestinians.
[01:38:34] praying for the peace of Jerusalem,
[01:38:37] which I do it all the time. I want
[01:38:39] Jerusalem to prosper.
[01:38:41] >> I do too.
[01:38:41] >> I want Jerusalem to thrive.
[01:38:43] >> I I totally agree.
[01:38:44] >> But politicians are using this verse to
[01:38:47] say, I want to bless Jerusalem. Pray for
[01:38:49] the peace of Jerusalem. That means
[01:38:50] Jewish sovereignty in Jerusalem. Total
[01:38:54] disregard of the historic church that
[01:38:56] has been sitting there for the past
[01:38:58] 2,000 years. Okay. I pray for the peace
[01:39:01] of Jerusalem. But praying for the peace
[01:39:03] of Jerusalem does not mean accepting the
[01:39:05] destruction of Gaza.
[01:39:07] Justice is not a zero- sum game.
[01:39:10] >> No,
[01:39:10] >> our political system and our pastors and
[01:39:15] leaders, they need to recognize that
[01:39:19] there is another way.
[01:39:21] It's it's not either or mentality. It's
[01:39:25] not choosing to support and bless one
[01:39:28] group of people because most likely it's
[01:39:30] going to end up at the expense of the
[01:39:33] vulnerable. Can I ask you about that
[01:39:35] point, the expense of the vulnerable as
[01:39:37] this is like theology 101. As a
[01:39:40] Christian, can Christians ever accept as
[01:39:42] good the killing of innocents?
[01:39:46] >> Absolutely not.
[01:39:47] >> That's not even a close call, is it?
[01:39:48] >> It's it's it's a crime against God.
[01:39:52] >> Exactly. Because everyone is created in
[01:39:55] the image of God.
[01:39:56] >> Bless you.
[01:39:56] >> Israelis, Palestinians,
[01:39:59] people with faith, people without faith.
[01:40:02] Everyone is valuable to be cherished and
[01:40:06] loved. But if you have done nothing
[01:40:08] wrong, you can't be p it's wrong to
[01:40:10] punish you. Correct. It's wrong to shoot
[01:40:12] your mother for not doing anything.
[01:40:14] >> No. I mean, not just your mother,
[01:40:15] anyone's mother, anyone's child. You
[01:40:17] can't You could say, "Well, that
[01:40:19] happens."
[01:40:20] >> Which it does, of course, a lot. And
[01:40:22] it's not just the Israelis who do it. Of
[01:40:23] course, everyone does it. But don't
[01:40:25] Christians have to say that's wrong?
[01:40:27] >> Absolutely. And we have to go, we have
[01:40:28] to raise a prophetic voice. It's not
[01:40:31] Christians are easy to be compassionate
[01:40:34] cuz Jesus was compassionate. He saw the
[01:40:36] sheep without a shepherd. He was moved
[01:40:38] with compassion. But also Jesus when
[01:40:41] necessary, he raised a prophetic voice.
[01:40:44] >> He braided a whip actually at one point.
[01:40:46] >> Yes.
[01:40:47] >> Yeah. He spoke against the injustice and
[01:40:50] the evildoers
[01:40:52] with the goal of transforming their
[01:40:55] heart.
[01:40:57] Now whether you know I don't have the
[01:40:59] ability to convert anybody. I don't have
[01:41:02] the ability to change anybody. But I
[01:41:04] know the one who can.
[01:41:06] >> Yes.
[01:41:06] >> And if the church doesn't believe in
[01:41:08] that power that the hardest of hearts
[01:41:12] can be transformed.
[01:41:14] Paul, what changed Paul? Exactly. He was
[01:41:16] a ruthless terrorist killing Christians
[01:41:19] and dragging them went to to Damascus to
[01:41:21] drag them
[01:41:21] >> walking to Syria to kill more
[01:41:22] Christians.
[01:41:23] >> Yes.
[01:41:24] >> Yep.
[01:41:24] >> Jesus changed them and he became the
[01:41:26] apostle.
[01:41:28] We need more stories of this in the
[01:41:30] Middle East. This is what gives me hope.
[01:41:31] This is what keeps me up at night and
[01:41:33] this is what gets me up in the morning
[01:41:35] is to see the Middle East healed,
[01:41:38] transformed
[01:41:40] by the love of God.
[01:41:42] We need if we have the power to stop the
[01:41:44] injustice inflicted upon the
[01:41:47] Palestinian, we need to speak. If we
[01:41:49] have the ability to speak against the
[01:41:50] injustice committed against Christians
[01:41:52] in Syria,
[01:41:54] >> in Iraq,
[01:41:55] >> Lebanon,
[01:41:56] >> I had a friend who pastored the Good
[01:41:58] Sheeperd Evangelical Church in Sueda. He
[01:42:01] was butchered with his family, 12
[01:42:04] members in cold blood by an Islamic
[01:42:08] terrorist.
[01:42:10] We need as Christians we condemn that.
[01:42:12] We don't condone that.
[01:42:14] >> This was in Syria.
[01:42:14] >> This was in Syria not too long ago. His
[01:42:17] name is Khaled Mazar.
[01:42:19] >> Yeah.
[01:42:19] >> So as Christians we have a
[01:42:22] responsibility. We have a sacred calling
[01:42:25] from God to
[01:42:29] to advocate on behalf of the widow, the
[01:42:31] orphan, the poor, the marginal. This was
[01:42:33] the very core message. And and many many
[01:42:36] Christians I want to point this out.
[01:42:38] They see this as, oh well, I want to
[01:42:40] stick with the gospel. I want to preach
[01:42:41] the gospel. This is social.
[01:42:43] >> That is the gospel.
[01:42:44] >> But Jesus had these two missions that
[01:42:46] are not competing. He preached the
[01:42:49] kingdom. He preached forgiveness of
[01:42:51] sins. He he uh he talked about
[01:42:54] repentance, but in the meantime, he fed
[01:42:56] people. He healed bodies. He raised
[01:42:59] people from the dead. You know, the good
[01:43:01] news to a child in Gaza who lost all of
[01:43:04] his family member and air strike. What
[01:43:07] is the good news to that child? It's our
[01:43:10] proximity. It's our presence. It's
[01:43:13] delivering a cold cup of water for the
[01:43:16] least of these.
[01:43:17] >> Of course,
[01:43:18] >> this is the gospel message. So many
[01:43:21] Christians, they decide say, "Well, I
[01:43:23] just want to focus on the gospel and uh
[01:43:25] end time theology." I mean, they spend
[01:43:27] hours and resources and millions of
[01:43:29] dollars preparing for an event that's
[01:43:32] going to happen or may not happen in the
[01:43:34] future while people are living on living
[01:43:39] hell on earth.
[01:43:41] >> Yeah.
[01:43:42] >> So, Anti Wright, great theologian, he
[01:43:44] said, you know, heaven is not a place
[01:43:46] that you get to go to after you die, but
[01:43:48] heaven is bringing
[01:43:51] God's love to people on earth.
[01:43:53] >> That's right. And hell is not just a
[01:43:55] place you're sent to. It's a place you
[01:43:58] can experience when and whenever you see
[01:43:59] chaos and violence and deception. Like
[01:44:01] that's what hell is.
[01:44:02] >> Yes.
[01:44:03] >> It's people screaming lies. Um I'm
[01:44:05] totally convinced of that. So let me ask
[01:44:07] you about a very controversial topic and
[01:44:10] that's Islam and the Muslims. And I
[01:44:13] noticed that in the United States that
[01:44:16] anyone who says, "Wait a second. What is
[01:44:18] going on in Gaza or the West Bank? Why
[01:44:20] are we paying for this? Why are our
[01:44:22] ministers, our ministers, making excuses
[01:44:24] for this? Anyone who says those things
[01:44:26] is accused of working for the Muslims or
[01:44:30] being a secret jihadi or taking money
[01:44:32] from some Muslim group or country or
[01:44:34] whatever.
[01:44:36] Um, this has happened to me, so it's a
[01:44:38] look, for the record, I've never taken
[01:44:40] money from anybody, Christian, Jew, or
[01:44:41] Muslim. Um, and won't. But whatever the
[01:44:44] point is,
[01:44:46] the response is I don't want to talk
[01:44:48] about what your tax dollars are doing
[01:44:51] because Islam is so scary that we just
[01:44:54] have to go along with this or else we're
[01:44:56] all going to be living in a caliphate.
[01:44:57] >> Yes.
[01:44:58] >> What do you have you noticed this? Well,
[01:44:59] this has been the media narrative and uh
[01:45:03] we are told
[01:45:05] by Christians and because I minister
[01:45:07] among Christian circles that this is a
[01:45:10] cosmic battle between God of the Bible
[01:45:14] against his enemies.
[01:45:16] >> Yes.
[01:45:16] >> This is between good and evil, Islam
[01:45:19] versus the West.
[01:45:20] >> Yeah.
[01:45:20] >> Once you frame a conflict like this, you
[01:45:24] are destined for perpetual animosity and
[01:45:27] perpetual wars. That's the whole point.
[01:45:29] It was the point of 9/11 obviously.
[01:45:31] >> So, do we have our differences
[01:45:32] theologically with Islam? Yes. Nobody
[01:45:36] ignores that. Do we have uh our
[01:45:38] understanding of God? Yes. But that
[01:45:41] doesn't mean we have to discriminate and
[01:45:43] demonize an entire group of people,
[01:45:46] almost two billion people for the sins
[01:45:50] that are committed by
[01:45:52] bad actors
[01:45:54] who are using, you know, religious texts
[01:45:58] or whatever to justify violence. That is
[01:46:01] to be called out. And I believe many
[01:46:05] governments in the in the Arab world
[01:46:07] have rejected political Islam and
[01:46:10] >> well they fear it too cuz it's a threat
[01:46:13] to their power. But you have to wonder
[01:46:15] like something like Syria where Israel
[01:46:16] teams up with Turkey. This is true. No
[01:46:19] one wants to hear it. But to take out
[01:46:21] the last government, whatever. And the
[01:46:24] net effect is to have savagery by jihadi
[01:46:28] groups against Christians and Alawites
[01:46:30] and other religious minorities. But
[01:46:31] like,
[01:46:32] okay, I mean, I'm against jihadis. I'm
[01:46:35] against radical Muslims for sure. Always
[01:46:36] have been. But like, they're not the
[01:46:38] ones who did this. Actually, they're not
[01:46:40] the ones who overthrew a secular regime
[01:46:42] and made it possible to murder all the
[01:46:45] Christians. It's same in Iraq. They had
[01:46:46] a secular regime, not defending Saddam
[01:46:48] or Urus.
[01:46:50] >> Yes.
[01:46:50] >> But it was the Israelis pushing the Bush
[01:46:53] administration to overthrow this regime
[01:46:55] that got millions of Christians in Iraq
[01:46:58] murdered or displaced. That's just a
[01:47:00] fact. And had we listened to the church
[01:47:02] leaders in Iraq, had we listened to the
[01:47:05] pastors and leaders who pleaded with the
[01:47:08] administration not to invade, we
[01:47:11] wouldn't have this catastrophe. Iraqi
[01:47:13] community is very small and but they're
[01:47:15] faithful. They're staying, but they have
[01:47:18] been devastated by the terrorist.
[01:47:20] >> They're mostly gone now. And you will
[01:47:22] see the same thing in Syria, same thing
[01:47:23] in Lebanon. Who blew up the port of
[01:47:25] Beirut?
[01:47:25] >> Yeah. Because when once you create a
[01:47:27] chaos, once you blow up a place, you
[01:47:29] create a vacuum.
[01:47:30] >> Exactly.
[01:47:30] >> A vacuum of hope. And what's going to
[01:47:32] fill this hope is radicalism, extremism,
[01:47:37] like you know, I tell you a story about
[01:47:39] uh Ali Faraj from Gaza, little boy.
[01:47:44] I think he's six or seven or eight.
[01:47:47] Can't remember his his age. He was blown
[01:47:50] off his apartment into the next door
[01:47:54] roof. And there's a famous picture.
[01:47:56] He's, you know, pointing hands and
[01:47:59] blooded. He lost five of his sisters, 15
[01:48:04] members of his family.
[01:48:06] That creates a deep
[01:48:09] vacuum in his life. If it's not filled
[01:48:12] with the hope, if it's not filled with
[01:48:15] God's love, this is the easiest, you
[01:48:19] know,
[01:48:19] >> of course,
[01:48:20] >> uh, you know, someone who's going who
[01:48:22] who who when you lose your agency,
[01:48:26] >> when you live in despair, I'm not giving
[01:48:28] excuses, but this is the vacuum that we
[01:48:31] need
[01:48:31] >> obviously to obviously
[01:48:33] >> with and and I'm deeply concerned, you
[01:48:36] know, I leave the politicians to figure
[01:48:38] it out politically, but as Christians,
[01:48:40] As ministers, our posture has to change.
[01:48:45] Our attitude toward everybody, even our
[01:48:48] enemies have,
[01:48:49] >> especially our enemies. Especially our
[01:48:51] enemies. Yeah.
[01:48:52] >> We're not going to be naive and bury our
[01:48:55] heads in the sand and, you know, pretend
[01:48:58] that, oh, we're not. But God is not
[01:49:00] calling us to be escapist.
[01:49:02] >> No. And as Jesus himself says, like
[01:49:05] loving your friends, loving people who
[01:49:06] love you. Even pagans do that. You don't
[01:49:08] get points for that. Yes,
[01:49:09] >> we're required to love our enemies, the
[01:49:11] people
[01:49:11] >> and engage in the culture, engage in the
[01:49:14] community with the gospel because we
[01:49:16] have a powerful
[01:49:18] uh powerful hope that can transform
[01:49:21] hearts and minds and this is the only
[01:49:23] hope that the Christian can really
[01:49:25] offer.
[01:49:26] >> Can I ask you one last question? And
[01:49:27] it's about the third temple. So, um in
[01:49:32] the world that you've lived in, I didn't
[01:49:34] fully realize just how in evangelical
[01:49:36] world you've been since how old were you
[01:49:37] when you came to the US? I was 18.
[01:49:40] >> 18. So you you come literally from the
[01:49:42] West Bank to the United States and you
[01:49:44] go to Liberty
[01:49:45] >> and a lot of great people, but they have
[01:49:47] a totally different understanding of
[01:49:49] what's happening in the place that you
[01:49:50] grew up than you do
[01:49:52] >> and a totally different theology maybe
[01:49:54] than you do. It's it's America. It's
[01:49:56] different. But one of the ideas that's
[01:50:00] common among Christian scientists is
[01:50:02] that they need Christians need to help
[01:50:05] rebuild this thing called the third
[01:50:07] temple. Yes,
[01:50:08] >> in Jerusalem. Unfortunately, there's a
[01:50:09] mosque on the site. One of the holiest
[01:50:11] places in Islam, Oxa Mosque. But
[01:50:14] is that something that Christians should
[01:50:17] want to rebuild the third temple? What
[01:50:19] is that? Where does that idea come from?
[01:50:21] And what would happen if it were
[01:50:22] attempted?
[01:50:23] >> Absolutely not. The short answer,
[01:50:25] >> okay,
[01:50:26] >> Jesus in Ephesians 2, he knocked down
[01:50:28] the wall of hostility that separated the
[01:50:30] Jews and the Gentiles.
[01:50:32] >> Yes.
[01:50:32] >> Why are we bringing it back up? Why are
[01:50:35] we building it? There is no point. There
[01:50:38] is no scripture that point to the fact
[01:50:40] that Christians need to build a third
[01:50:42] temple. There is no prophecy about a
[01:50:44] third temple. There is no way in
[01:50:46] scripture about anything close to the
[01:50:48] third.
[01:50:49] >> Well, we're doing it. I mean, we're
[01:50:50] moving toward knocking down
[01:50:53] Ala Mosque and replacing it with a third
[01:50:56] temple. I mean, all things being equal,
[01:50:58] that's going to happen. It was just
[01:50:59] occupied yesterday by a bunch of
[01:51:01] settlers. So, this is happening in slow
[01:51:03] motion. Christians are paying for it.
[01:51:05] Again, they're going they're putting
[01:51:07] their hopes on earthly matters where I
[01:51:10] direct them to the faith that Abraham
[01:51:11] had where he fixed his eyes on what
[01:51:14] eternal the new Jerusalem. In Galatians
[01:51:18] chapter 4, it spells it out really
[01:51:20] clearly. If you are in Christ, you
[01:51:22] belong to the free woman Sarah.
[01:51:28] Uh,
[01:51:30] and if you don't belong to Christ,
[01:51:32] you're still fixated and enslaved by the
[01:51:35] idea of an earthly Jerusalem. The land
[01:51:39] matters. Yes, we honor Jerusalem. We
[01:51:41] remember what Christ had done there. It
[01:51:43] carries deep memories. But the question
[01:51:46] is, does it have any spiritual
[01:51:49] significance?
[01:51:50] Does the temple have any spiritual
[01:51:52] significance?
[01:51:54] When Jesus came, he transformed the
[01:51:56] whole meaning. Again, you know, John
[01:51:59] chapter 1, it says Jesus, he pitched his
[01:52:02] tent among us. The word became flesh.
[01:52:04] The word became flesh. He tabernacled
[01:52:06] among us. That's the exact word that the
[01:52:09] Greek language uses to describe Christ
[01:52:12] incarnation. He tabernacled among us
[01:52:15] because he is the locust of the land.
[01:52:19] If there is anything holy in the holy
[01:52:20] land, it's Jerusalem. If there is
[01:52:22] anything holy in Jerusalem, it is the
[01:52:24] temple. If there is anything holy in the
[01:52:26] temple, it is the holy of holies. But
[01:52:29] guess what happened when Jesus was
[01:52:30] crucified?
[01:52:32] That thing got destroyed, split in half
[01:52:35] because he is the final destination.
[01:52:38] Everything in scripture points to Jesus,
[01:52:41] not to a third temple. You know when
[01:52:44] when Jesus ascended and he sent his Holy
[01:52:46] Spirit, he empowered his disciples to be
[01:52:49] the temple of the Holy Spirit because
[01:52:51] God does not reside, it specifically
[01:52:54] said it does not reside with in in a
[01:52:57] house built with with hands and stones.
[01:53:00] >> God resides in us human beings through
[01:53:04] the Holy Spirit. So why are we so
[01:53:07] fixated on erecting a temple that does
[01:53:10] not have any spiritual significance
[01:53:12] whatsoever? We are the temple of God.
[01:53:16] Jesus himself is the high priest
[01:53:19] according to the New Testament. Jesus
[01:53:21] himself is the lamb of God, the
[01:53:23] sacrifice.
[01:53:25] And Jesus himself offered himself as the
[01:53:29] sacrifice. So he is the alpha and he's
[01:53:32] the omega. He's the author and the
[01:53:35] finisher of our faith according to our
[01:53:38] holy scripture and Christians need to be
[01:53:42] fixated on that holy hope.
[01:53:47] >> Thank you for the time you spend here.
[01:53:48] It's amazing conversation. I appreciate
[01:53:50] it.
[01:53:50] >> Thank you, Tucker. Thanks for watching
[01:53:53] the Wednesday edition of the show. We
[01:53:56] stream live every week, Wednesday, 600
[01:53:59] p.m. Eastern on tuckerclson.com.
[01:54:02] Members can watch the show live, join
[01:54:04] the membersonly chat, and take part in
[01:54:06] the conversation in real time. We're
[01:54:08] grateful to be doing it and grateful
[01:54:10] that you watch it. Thank you.
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