📄 Extracted Text (24,773 words)
[00:00:00] I went home and I went and asked my
[00:00:01] parents like, "Who are you voting for?"
[00:00:03] My mom looked at me and said, "None of
[00:00:05] your business. Go do your homework." My
[00:00:07] mom and dad did not want to influence
[00:00:10] the way I thought. Well, I think social
[00:00:11] media and the internet has changed
[00:00:14] everything. Enhance it in many ways, but
[00:00:16] then the opposite in many ways as well.
[00:00:18] People need to see what happens when you
[00:00:21] speak [music] up. If you say one thing
[00:00:23] wrong or something somebody doesn't
[00:00:24] like, I mean, that thing lasts forever.
[00:00:27] I have so much more peace in my life now
[00:00:30] too after all the chaos and the
[00:00:31] cancellation and the standing up. And I
[00:00:33] think that that affects us in more ways
[00:00:35] than we realize.
[00:00:36] >> Peace because you've spoken your
[00:00:37] conscious.
[00:00:37] >> Yes. It's the biggest blessing to not
[00:00:40] try to please the world anymore and to
[00:00:42] be okay being disliked. I am no longer
[00:00:45] hiding. I'm no longer living in fear. I
[00:00:46] didn't realize how much I was living in
[00:00:48] fear until [music] I stopped living in
[00:00:49] fear. We all have to ask ourselves that
[00:00:51] like like what is your line? I didn't
[00:00:54] know what that line was until it was
[00:00:55] crossed.
[00:00:58] What is your price?
[00:01:00] [music] Because if your price is not
[00:01:02] your life,
[00:01:06] then you are for sale
[00:01:13] to the Price is My Life podcast. Today
[00:01:17] we are joined by Sage Steel. I went on
[00:01:20] her show and now she's on mine. Sage is
[00:01:23] one of the most recognizable faces in
[00:01:24] sports media. a top anchor at the height
[00:01:28] of her career. But when Sage Steel dared
[00:01:31] to speak the truth about her beliefs,
[00:01:33] the backlash, which always happens when
[00:01:35] you tell the truth, doesn't it, was
[00:01:36] pretty brutal. Sage Steel, longtime ESPN
[00:01:40] anchor, suspended after some comments,
[00:01:44] some remarks involving COVID and
[00:01:47] President Obama. Sage Steel later sued
[00:01:51] ESPN and Disney claiming retaliation
[00:01:54] free speech violations and after a long
[00:01:56] legal battle. Sage settled left ESPN in
[00:01:59] August 2023 saying she wanted to
[00:02:02] exercise her first amendment rights.
[00:02:05] Now she's blazing her own path in
[00:02:07] independent media and faith is at the
[00:02:10] center of her journey telling the truth
[00:02:12] without filters and without corporate
[00:02:15] control. Saged risked her reputation,
[00:02:18] her career, and her future all to stand
[00:02:20] by what she believes in. This is after
[00:02:23] all called the Price is My Life Show.
[00:02:25] And on this show, we're going to tell
[00:02:26] the stories of people who've sacrificed
[00:02:27] it all. May have seen our recent
[00:02:30] interview with whistleblower Thomas
[00:02:32] Drake. And that too centered on his
[00:02:36] faith, a voice that refuses to be
[00:02:39] controlled.
[00:02:41] Thank you for being here.
[00:02:43] >> That intro almost gets me choked up. My
[00:02:45] goodness, James. No, thank you. Thank
[00:02:47] you for having me. And the name of your
[00:02:48] show is everything.
[00:02:52] >> So, what does that mean to you?
[00:02:53] >> Yeah. I didn't know I say this to people
[00:02:56] who ask about speaking up and why did
[00:02:59] you do it? First of all, it wasn't
[00:03:01] intentional. It wasn't a plan to go out
[00:03:03] one day and blow up my career. But you
[00:03:06] have we all have to ask ourselves that
[00:03:08] like like what is your line? A line that
[00:03:11] is a little bit too far. Do you know
[00:03:14] when what that is? You know, has has a
[00:03:16] company, a person crossed your line?
[00:03:18] Like I didn't know what that line was
[00:03:20] until it was crossed. Um and then you
[00:03:22] have to ask yourself again, all right,
[00:03:24] am I willing to accept that? And if not,
[00:03:28] fine. What are you willing to accept?
[00:03:30] What are you willing to sacrifice? Um
[00:03:32] and yes, it's lifealtering. It always
[00:03:36] is.
[00:03:37] When did you first discover that that
[00:03:40] kind of in your conscience that there's
[00:03:43] this line and what when when you had
[00:03:45] that feeling in your life uh or that
[00:03:48] thought to yourself, what I'm willing to
[00:03:50] sacrifice? When did that first occur to
[00:03:52] you? [sighs and gasps]
[00:03:54] >> I think it crept up on me through the
[00:03:57] years. Um I started at ESPN in 2007 and
[00:04:01] it was a different world then.
[00:04:02] Completely different world. Yeah, it was
[00:04:05] >> How has the world changed?
[00:04:06] >> Oh my gosh.
[00:04:07] >> What's the biggest way the world's
[00:04:08] changed? [sighs and gasps]
[00:04:10] >> Um, well, I think social media and the
[00:04:12] internet has changed everything and
[00:04:16] enhanced it in many ways, but done the
[00:04:18] opposite in many ways as well. And you
[00:04:20] know, working in network television for
[00:04:22] so long, you know, okay, if you screw up
[00:04:24] couple hundred thousand, maybe a million
[00:04:26] or two people see it if they're if they
[00:04:28] happen to be watching you live.
[00:04:30] Usually, then it's gone. Well, now what
[00:04:32] happens if you say one thing wrong or
[00:04:34] something somebody doesn't like? I mean,
[00:04:36] that thing lasts forever. Um, it never
[00:04:40] goes away. And that's because of where
[00:04:43] we are with social media with with the
[00:04:45] internet. Um, to me, that's where it
[00:04:47] really changed. And that was 08 going
[00:04:48] into Obama, that election.
[00:04:50] >> Um, and I had always been somewhat, I
[00:04:54] don't want to say political, but
[00:04:56] definitely interested in politics. Late
[00:04:58] high school, early college. Um, you were
[00:05:00] interested in politics.
[00:05:01] >> I was.
[00:05:03] >> What led you to be interested in
[00:05:04] politics? [sighs and gasps]
[00:05:05] >> Um, I remember being in a civics class
[00:05:08] as a junior in high school in 1988.
[00:05:12] >> And I'm aging myself. Huh? 88. Junior in
[00:05:15] high school. Do the math.
[00:05:16] >> You look good [laughter] for for how
[00:05:18] your age. You look good.
[00:05:19] >> You make it. No, thank you. I remember
[00:05:22] um
[00:05:22] >> What's your secret, by the way? That's
[00:05:24] why I asked Mara Maples. I have to ask.
[00:05:25] What's your secret?
[00:05:26] >> I saw she was on your show and I love
[00:05:27] her.
[00:05:27] >> Is it moisturizer? Is it is it diet?
[00:05:30] What is your secret for real?
[00:05:31] >> It is it is slathering beef tallow on my
[00:05:34] face at night number one. And it is
[00:05:37] genetics. You know the whole black don't
[00:05:39] crack thing.
[00:05:40] >> Asians don't raisin. [laughter] Blacks
[00:05:42] don't crack. My my my operations manager
[00:05:45] is Filipino. He's laughing.
[00:05:46] >> Is he though? Actually, I know that he
[00:05:49] is. He's
[00:05:49] >> there's no gray hair. Well, there's
[00:05:51] there's a couple gray hairs now after
[00:05:52] what I've pulled
[00:05:53] >> after working with you. No, it's a
[00:05:55] compliment, right?
[00:05:55] >> Put beef towel on your face.
[00:05:56] >> Beef. But honestly, it's I have so much
[00:05:59] more peace in my life now, too, after
[00:06:02] all the chaos and the cancellation and
[00:06:03] the standing up. And I think that that
[00:06:05] affects us in more ways than we realize.
[00:06:07] >> Peace because you've spoken your
[00:06:08] consciousness.
[00:06:08] >> Yes. And because I I am no longer
[00:06:12] hiding. I'm no longer living in fear. I
[00:06:13] didn't realize how much I was living in
[00:06:15] fear until I stopped living in fear.
[00:06:17] >> Working in corporate America, hiding
[00:06:18] your your
[00:06:19] >> hiding because I worked for a woke
[00:06:21] company. So, but going back to 1988, I
[00:06:24] remember being in a civics class and
[00:06:25] just talking about the upcoming election
[00:06:27] and um I went home and I went and asked
[00:06:30] my parents like who were you voting for
[00:06:32] and who was it in 88? Oh my gosh. So, is
[00:06:34] that 88
[00:06:36] >> caucus versus George W. HW Bush
[00:06:38] >> HW? Exactly. And I just wanted to know
[00:06:40] who my parents were voting for. My mom
[00:06:42] looked at me and said, "None of your
[00:06:44] business. Go do your homework."
[00:06:46] >> Yeah. And military family. I'm an army
[00:06:48] kid. We lived in Colorado Springs. dad
[00:06:50] was stationed at Fort Carson at the
[00:06:51] time. He's a West Point grad. My whole
[00:06:53] life was moving to different army bases
[00:06:55] around the world. Um, and we had great
[00:06:57] conversations about things. My mom and
[00:06:59] dad did not want to influence the way I
[00:07:02] thought. They said, "Go do your own
[00:07:03] homework and figure out and let us know
[00:07:04] what what you would do." And that's
[00:07:06] where it became.
[00:07:07] >> You don't know who your mom voted for.
[00:07:09] >> I don't know. I do now. Back then, they
[00:07:12] wanted us to do our own homework and for
[00:07:16] them to not influence us. Like I I
[00:07:18] failed in that way as a parent. I was
[00:07:20] like, listen with my kids again. It was
[00:07:21] a different time.
[00:07:22] >> Different world.
[00:07:23] >> Very different world. But I so
[00:07:25] appreciated that. So then when I went to
[00:07:26] college and started doing digging and
[00:07:30] even back then about Planned Parenthood
[00:07:32] and what it was all about. So
[00:07:34] >> Margaret Sanger.
[00:07:35] >> Yes. No one wants to talk about Margaret
[00:07:37] Sanger and how she wanted to eliminate
[00:07:39] people who look like me. She said it on
[00:07:40] tape. No one likes to roll that tape
[00:07:42] back. No one likes to look at the facts
[00:07:44] of things. No one obviously you. But but
[00:07:47] the majority of people, they they don't
[00:07:50] want to know the truth. Um because they
[00:07:51] might have to change the way they do
[00:07:53] live their lives. Um makes them
[00:07:54] uncomfortable, want to continue to make
[00:07:57] people think otherwise. So that's where
[00:07:59] I really went deeper on it and took my
[00:08:04] mom's advice and wanted like you can
[00:08:05] have an opinion, great, but you better
[00:08:07] be able to explain why.
[00:08:09] >> And to me, most people
[00:08:12] don't know why they believe what they
[00:08:14] believe or don't. It seems
[00:08:16] counterintuitive to me that your mother
[00:08:17] didn't tell you anything about it and
[00:08:19] that made you more drawn to researching
[00:08:21] it on your own because in most people's
[00:08:23] their parents are political and that's
[00:08:25] why they're political. In your case,
[00:08:26] they weren't.
[00:08:27] >> No, they really weren't. And and then I
[00:08:29] got probably I I think I in hindsight
[00:08:33] was a little over the top at one point.
[00:08:35] Probably.
[00:08:36] >> How are you over the top? because I
[00:08:38] obsessed over it and that was the Obama
[00:08:39] years and what I thought was a divisive
[00:08:44] president and even in the election and
[00:08:47] remember the Joe the plumber and all
[00:08:49] those conversations. Yeah. Yeah. I I was
[00:08:53] disturbed and disappointed that Barack
[00:08:57] Obama
[00:08:59] >> chose to ignore the white side of his
[00:09:02] family as a biracial man.
[00:09:04] >> I took it personally. You were you were
[00:09:05] you took it personally.
[00:09:07] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[00:09:09] >> It's different. It is a different
[00:09:10] existence as biracial, half black, half
[00:09:13] white. I am
[00:09:14] >> just being two fully black parents.
[00:09:16] >> Yeah. And there's that's a whole that's
[00:09:19] a whole show. That's a a cultural thing.
[00:09:22] >> But you felt righteous indignation about
[00:09:24] this.
[00:09:25] >> I mean, strong words maybe. I just
[00:09:27] thought, you know, I had been called
[00:09:30] names and then you're not black enough.
[00:09:31] You're certainly not white enough even
[00:09:33] though I'm exactly 50% of each. And I
[00:09:35] remember being young and being teased
[00:09:37] for it. Um and then certainly throughout
[00:09:39] my career where you're not enough and oh
[00:09:41] well she's different and she thinks
[00:09:42] she's that because um because of her
[00:09:45] hair because she's light and in the
[00:09:47] black culture at times it's oh if you're
[00:09:50] lighter then you you know are spared
[00:09:53] from things through I mean slavery on
[00:09:56] up.
[00:09:57] >> Um all I know is that I had a a white
[00:09:59] mom and a black dad who fell in love and
[00:10:01] had me period. And I didn't understand
[00:10:04] how you couldn't be grateful for all of
[00:10:08] you, not just half of you. And so when
[00:10:10] he basically ignored his white side, he
[00:10:14] was raised by his white mother and white
[00:10:17] grandmother and his black father, as he
[00:10:20] has said, was not around, nowhere to be
[00:10:22] found. He wrote a book about this. This
[00:10:24] was not breaking news.
[00:10:24] >> Which book was that? He wrote a few
[00:10:26] books.
[00:10:26] >> Yeah. But he talks specifically in one
[00:10:28] of them about his father not being
[00:10:31] there. And and that's like millions of
[00:10:34] kids, black, white, green, yellow, whose
[00:10:36] parents are divorced, separated, maybe
[00:10:38] were never married, but one parent is
[00:10:41] not involved. And I just thought, my
[00:10:43] goodness
[00:10:45] is that must be tough for his white mom
[00:10:47] and grandmother who were right there,
[00:10:49] who did raise him to be a brilliant
[00:10:51] young man. And that bought I took that
[00:10:54] personally because of the way um I had
[00:10:57] been made to feel at times. And at I
[00:11:00] mean when I was little I remember James
[00:11:01] like questioning
[00:11:03] I was in third grade. We lived in
[00:11:05] Greece. I remember one day going to
[00:11:07] school and my you know third grade kids
[00:11:09] friends are like oh look at you. Your
[00:11:11] mom dropped you off at school. Your
[00:11:12] white mom you're adopted. Like you don't
[00:11:14] look like your mom. You must be adopted.
[00:11:16] And I'm young. And I went I thought
[00:11:18] about it all day and [clears throat] I
[00:11:20] went home and my mom was like, "What is
[00:11:22] wrong?" And I started sobbing and I was
[00:11:24] like, "My friends say that I'm adopted
[00:11:26] because I don't look like you. Am I
[00:11:28] adopted? Are you my mom?" I mean, I
[00:11:30] remember this vividly.
[00:11:31] >> How old were you at the time?
[00:11:32] >> Third grade.
[00:11:33] >> Third grade.
[00:11:34] >> What is that? Eight. And I remember
[00:11:38] being so scared that she wasn't my mom.
[00:11:41] I knew I was I knew my dad was my dad
[00:11:43] because I looked more like him, right?
[00:11:45] Just a little lighter shade.
[00:11:47] And I will never forget how my mom
[00:11:49] explained it to me as a little girl.
[00:11:53] >> She's like, "You know, when we go to
[00:11:55] McDonald's, what's your favorite thing
[00:11:56] to get?" And it was the chocolate
[00:11:58] vanilla swirl ice cream cone. And she's
[00:12:00] like, "Think about that. You're like a
[00:12:02] swirl ice cream cone. And then when it
[00:12:04] melts, it's a little bit lighter brown
[00:12:06] than just the chocolate, right? That's
[00:12:08] because there's vanilla mixed in. That's
[00:12:09] just like you. You're just a little
[00:12:10] lighter. So yes, you're mine. And I love
[00:12:12] you with all my heart. And yes, you're
[00:12:13] dad's." Like that made sense to me. But
[00:12:15] I remember being so scared those kids
[00:12:18] were right cuz I didn't look like my
[00:12:19] mom. So I think that's where it really
[00:12:22] began because think about you've seen
[00:12:25] memes on this now and some beautiful
[00:12:26] stories on the internet where it's like
[00:12:29] we are the ones that teach kids racism.
[00:12:34] Kids are born we
[00:12:35] >> we adults
[00:12:37] >> just adults in general.
[00:12:38] >> Yes. The adults in the room are the ones
[00:12:40] kids don't
[00:12:41] >> we're not born with it. No, no. We're
[00:12:44] born with love and kindness and you're
[00:12:45] just a little kid on a playground. You
[00:12:47] want to play kickball, right? We're the
[00:12:49] ones and now social media, etc. that
[00:12:52] that creates it. Kids are innocent. So,
[00:12:56] that's where it really began. Um, and I
[00:12:59] just didn't understand how he wasn't
[00:13:02] proud of all of him,
[00:13:04] >> especially the ones who raised him. this
[00:13:06] I always like to ask and I'd like to
[00:13:08] pull up that clip um from the Jay Cutler
[00:13:12] podcast but before it's like I always
[00:13:14] ask people what is the genesis you asked
[00:13:16] me the same question when I went on your
[00:13:17] show like what made it was being third
[00:13:19] in third grade and having people
[00:13:21] question you were made to feel insecure
[00:13:24] and [snorts] that was deep deep from
[00:13:26] your very beginning of your life as a as
[00:13:28] a
[00:13:29] >> eight-year-old
[00:13:30] >> and you went to your mother and she said
[00:13:32] it's like a McDonald's McFlurry and
[00:13:35] remind people again your your your your
[00:13:38] um your racial background, your your
[00:13:40] mother and your father.
[00:13:41] >> Yeah, my dad's black. Um born in New
[00:13:44] York City, Army brat. Um my mom is
[00:13:47] white, Irish Italian
[00:13:49] >> from West Springfield, Massachusetts.
[00:13:51] Yeah. So very pale. Uh white skin, ice
[00:13:55] green eyes. She's beautiful. My dad's
[00:13:57] beautiful. I mean, they still alive.
[00:13:59] >> Yeah. The ages 79 and 76. What did they
[00:14:02] think about everything you went through
[00:14:03] at ESPN?
[00:14:04] >> Oh gosh. Well,
[00:14:08] it it hurt them. It hurt them. I think
[00:14:10] that's the I don't regret it. I don't
[00:14:13] regret any of it. But I knew I could
[00:14:16] handle it. I could handle the name
[00:14:17] calling. I could handle the death
[00:14:18] threats. I could handle the
[00:14:19] cancellation. Um but I hate how it
[00:14:22] affected others. And that would be my
[00:14:23] parents and my kids. It did affect them
[00:14:25] a lot. Did it affect them even more than
[00:14:27] it affected you or the same or
[00:14:29] >> I think they hid a lot from me. There
[00:14:32] were a couple times my mom called me uh
[00:14:34] one of my Instagram posts, this is
[00:14:35] probably 2017, that went really viral
[00:14:39] and probably four or 5,000 comments
[00:14:42] within a day and 90% were telling me how
[00:14:45] evil I am and you know threatening to
[00:14:46] rape my daughters%.
[00:14:48] >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:14:49] >> And my mom called me almost in tears. my
[00:14:52] mom's tough and called me almost in
[00:14:54] tears and she's like, "Sage, just delete
[00:14:55] the comment. Just delete everything you
[00:14:57] said. Just please make it go away. These
[00:14:59] comments, they're threatening you.
[00:15:00] They're threatening your kids." And I
[00:15:02] had never thought about deleting it. And
[00:15:04] she begged me because it was breaking
[00:15:07] her to see her daughter being attacked.
[00:15:10] And as a mother of three myself, like I
[00:15:13] understand that now. Um, and I said to
[00:15:15] her though, "Mom, if I delete those
[00:15:17] comments, it will make it look like they
[00:15:19] never happened." People need to see what
[00:15:22] happens when you speak up. I will not
[00:15:25] delete any of this.
[00:15:26] >> Does that do those comments hurt you?
[00:15:27] Did they do they at the time?
[00:15:28] >> I mean, it sounds weird, but does it
[00:15:30] hurt your feelings? Does it? Oh my gosh.
[00:15:32] Yeah.
[00:15:32] >> What year was that?
[00:15:34] >> 2017 when it really started to get Now I
[00:15:37] I
[00:15:39] now I don't care. I I think that's the
[00:15:41] biggest most beautiful thing of being
[00:15:44] canceled and surviving. Like I still
[00:15:46] woke up the next day and every time I
[00:15:48] got cancelled, which who knows how many
[00:15:49] times that is now, somehow I'm still
[00:15:51] standing and breathing. It's crazy. But
[00:15:53] it's the biggest blessing to
[00:15:57] not try to please the world anymore and
[00:15:59] to be okay being disliked.
[00:16:01] >> That's the hardest part, isn't it?
[00:16:03] >> Yes. And I think as women, as girls in
[00:16:07] particular, when you're younger, um I
[00:16:09] think I I was a pleaser growing up and
[00:16:11] my whole career. I've always been a
[00:16:12] pleaser. and you want people to like you
[00:16:14] and wait, no, I'm a nice person. I'm a
[00:16:17] good teammate. I'm a good employee.
[00:16:19] Like, what? How could you not like me?
[00:16:21] What do you mean? And and then I
[00:16:24] realized it was like all of those human
[00:16:26] qualities that are supposedly the most
[00:16:28] important things
[00:16:30] come in second place or fourth or fifth
[00:16:32] place to your opinion these days about
[00:16:35] something. And I always say, isn't that
[00:16:37] fascinating? Because your opinions are
[00:16:39] based on your experiences. Mhm.
[00:16:41] >> So, you can't I mean, you can condemn me
[00:16:44] for my opinion, but I think it's
[00:16:45] short-sighted and actually ignorant
[00:16:46] because you don't know what I've been
[00:16:47] through. I don't know what you've been
[00:16:49] through. So, to judge um I think is
[00:16:52] actually completely hypocritical.
[00:16:54] >> It's I think of what you just said, the
[00:16:56] hardest thing is to be dis disliked.
[00:16:58] It's a very difficult thing.
[00:16:59] >> You're good at that, aren't you?
[00:17:01] I think it was Rush Limbaugh once said
[00:17:02] something to the effect of, you know,
[00:17:04] you you really have to
[00:17:06] >> it's really hard to psychologically
[00:17:08] accept that you you were disliked when
[00:17:11] you have those all those negative.
[00:17:13] >> For me, it was the Wikipedia page
[00:17:15] initially.
[00:17:16] >> That was hard to to to you can't control
[00:17:18] it. But but your point is you have you
[00:17:20] developed a kind of superpower
[00:17:22] >> surviving that for lack of a better word
[00:17:24] online abuse
[00:17:25] >> and now you're free. You're liberated.
[00:17:27] you're not you're not seeking the
[00:17:28] approval of these these powers that be.
[00:17:30] >> I I wish it hadn't taken so long, but I
[00:17:35] had a friend who said this to me about
[00:17:37] everything in life, professional,
[00:17:38] personal, it takes what it takes.
[00:17:41] >> It takes what it takes.
[00:17:42] >> And it took me years of kind of you dip
[00:17:46] your toe in the water and it's like,
[00:17:48] "Oh, wow. That's really hot and kind of
[00:17:51] burns and let me take it back out and
[00:17:53] I'm going to run over here." And then I
[00:17:54] would say something else or
[00:17:56] intentionally or not and then it would
[00:17:58] get louder and louder. But then I
[00:18:00] realized again every single time I
[00:18:03] survived it and was a little bit
[00:18:06] stronger afterwards and thinking, wait a
[00:18:08] minute, that's just that's my
[00:18:10] experience.
[00:18:12] >> Um mo most of them initially began or or
[00:18:17] surrounded race for sure. Um, and being
[00:18:20] proud to be biracial, being proud of all
[00:18:24] of me, not just what society told me,
[00:18:26] the half of me I was supposed to focus
[00:18:28] on.
[00:18:28] >> It's like accepting yourself, being at
[00:18:30] peace with who you really are.
[00:18:31] >> God forbid. It's amazing. They they they
[00:18:33] encourage that for some. Like, if you're
[00:18:35] if you're a furry, we are behind you.
[00:18:38] Congratulations. You're a girl today, a
[00:18:40] boy tomorrow, a cat Thursday. Like,
[00:18:42] that's all great. We're being true to
[00:18:43] ourselves. But if I but if I say, you
[00:18:46] know, well, wait a minute, both my mom
[00:18:50] and dad really mattered to me.
[00:18:52] >> Mhm.
[00:18:52] >> I'm a sellout. So that's okay.
[00:18:55] >> This is James O'Keefe. You know me for
[00:18:57] exposing the truth and holding the
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[00:20:13] >> My circle's gotten a lot smaller, and I
[00:20:15] think that's a blessing, too. [laughter]
[00:20:17] >> That is a blessing. But boundaries.
[00:20:19] >> Yeah.
[00:20:19] >> So, if the 2025 version of you were to
[00:20:21] go back to the 2017 version of you and
[00:20:24] offer you some wisdom, what would it be?
[00:20:27] >> To not live in fear.
[00:20:30] >> Fear no evil.
[00:20:31] >> I was afraid
[00:20:33] >> of what? of
[00:20:37] being disliked.
[00:20:39] I was afraid of
[00:20:42] being disliked by my bosses first and
[00:20:44] foremost and then by teammates and then
[00:20:47] by friends and neighbors and then by
[00:20:50] society and it was a very I mean the
[00:20:52] world was so different in 17 and it's
[00:20:54] nothing like now which is why I'm like
[00:20:56] god that's what upset me then [laughter]
[00:20:57] you know
[00:20:58] >> world's changed a lot. I think people
[00:20:59] are more likely to to tell the
[00:21:02] >> they're more likely to speak their mind.
[00:21:04] We need to make it even better.
[00:21:05] >> I would go back. You know what I would
[00:21:07] do? This sounds so cheesy.
[00:21:09] >> I would give myself a big old hug.
[00:21:12] >> Just hug yourself.
[00:21:13] >> Yeah. And be like, "It's okay. You're
[00:21:15] going to be okay. Don't hold back
[00:21:18] because of the toll that that took." And
[00:21:20] then and then when it was like, "Okay,
[00:21:23] do or die. Do you stand up or not?"
[00:21:25] Because
[00:21:26] act now or forever hold your peace is
[00:21:28] kind of where I got to with the Disney
[00:21:30] thing. Um, and then once I did, it was
[00:21:34] like, okay, here we go. I don't know
[00:21:36] what the future holds, but I know that
[00:21:38] I'm no longer going to be silent.
[00:21:39] Because at some point, sure, you can be
[00:21:40] mad at your employer, be mad at social
[00:21:42] media, be mad at your friends who, you
[00:21:44] know, are cussing you out or downing
[00:21:47] you, whatever it is. But the end of the
[00:21:50] day, I would be more disappointed in
[00:21:52] myself. They can say what they want, but
[00:21:54] I can't control that. I can control
[00:21:55] this. So, if I stay silent, that's my
[00:21:58] own fault. It's not their fault. That's
[00:22:00] the greatest wisdom I've learned is to
[00:22:02] focus on what you can do, not try to
[00:22:03] control other people. The Stoics talk a
[00:22:05] lot about that. We have a clip here for
[00:22:08] those of who are not familiar. This is
[00:22:10] from 2021 team. Can we
[00:22:12] >> You fill out your census. I'm like, I
[00:22:14] don't know when the last time I filled
[00:22:15] out my census was, but if they make you
[00:22:18] choose a race.
[00:22:19] >> Yeah.
[00:22:19] >> She's like, what are you going to put? I
[00:22:20] go, well, both. She's like, well, you
[00:22:22] can't. He goes, well, what Barack Obama
[00:22:24] chose black and he's biracial. I'm like,
[00:22:26] well, congratulations to the president.
[00:22:28] That's his thing. I go I think that's
[00:22:30] fascinating consider considering his
[00:22:33] black dad was nowhere to be found. But
[00:22:34] his white mom and grandma raised him.
[00:22:36] But hey, you do you. I'm gonna do me.
[00:22:41] >> So So that that one line, [laughter]
[00:22:44] that one sentence.
[00:22:45] >> Yeah.
[00:22:46] >> You're I love your I love how you're
[00:22:47] very authentic though. You're you're
[00:22:49] you're telling saying what's on your
[00:22:50] mind. You're not holding anything back
[00:22:52] there.
[00:22:52] >> So Jay Cutler's research staff did their
[00:22:55] homework. That was 2021. He asked me
[00:22:58] about those comments that were
[00:23:00] originally said in 2014 on The View.
[00:23:04] >> Oh, you said them on The View in 2014.
[00:23:06] >> And then I just repeated it in that clip
[00:23:08] there with Cutler. I was on The View.
[00:23:10] ABC and ESPN are both owned by Disney.
[00:23:12] So, every once in a while they'd ask me
[00:23:13] to go on there and it was Barbara
[00:23:15] Walters and Sher Shepard and Whoopi and
[00:23:18] Jenny McCarthy who's lovely. Um, by the
[00:23:21] way, Whoopi was really nice too. like I
[00:23:23] think something's happened to her since
[00:23:25] as well, but at the time very nice and
[00:23:27] supportive. And Barbara Walters had a
[00:23:29] problem with me not identifying as
[00:23:32] black. So, I mean, she she she was upset
[00:23:36] with me and that's the story I was
[00:23:37] telling.
[00:23:37] >> She had a problem with you not
[00:23:40] identifying as black.
[00:23:41] >> Yeah, she had a problem with me
[00:23:42] identifying as biracial, which is what I
[00:23:44] am. And she said,
[00:23:44] >> why does she have a problem with that?
[00:23:46] >> It's a great question.
[00:23:47] >> It's weird. But she said, "So what
[00:23:49] happens when you fill out a census if
[00:23:52] you can only choose one?" And I was
[00:23:54] like, "I don't I haven't done one
[00:23:55] lately." And she said, "Our president is
[00:23:57] black right now." And that's when I said
[00:23:58] that about Obama. And those are the
[00:24:00] facts. He is only identifying with half
[00:24:02] of him, the half of unfortunately where
[00:24:04] his father wasn't there. And by the way,
[00:24:07] like that that breaks my heart. That
[00:24:10] breaks my heart. The numbers in the
[00:24:11] black community, 72% of black kids are
[00:24:13] born out of wedlock. quite often fathers
[00:24:16] are not there. Let's focus on that,
[00:24:18] right? Not the fact that I'm not
[00:24:20] identifying with the half that you want.
[00:24:21] By the way, coming from a 106-y old
[00:24:23] white woman at that moment, you know.
[00:24:26] >> Yeah. I didn't know that Barbara Walters
[00:24:27] was still alive or on television. I
[00:24:29] think she
[00:24:29] >> in 2014 she is she is now this is 10
[00:24:32] years ago or so.
[00:24:33] >> This is Yeah. 10 11 years ago. So at
[00:24:34] that time and so when Jay asked me about
[00:24:36] it, I repeated the story and that's all
[00:24:37] it was. And I stand by it because those
[00:24:40] are facts. Barack Obama again, he can
[00:24:43] say identify however he he wants. I but
[00:24:46] when Barbara Walters brought his name
[00:24:48] into the conversation, I responded. That
[00:24:51] was my response. I choose to identify as
[00:24:54] actually what I am, [clears throat]
[00:24:55] which is half of each. [snorts] And I'm
[00:24:57] so
[00:24:58] >> I don't know why Walters would be That's
[00:24:59] weird.
[00:25:00] >> Well, she's woke. She was
[00:25:02] >> strange.
[00:25:03] >> Yeah. God forbid. So, it's just
[00:25:05] >> guilt. I just want your opinion on this,
[00:25:07] your your perspective. I think that's I
[00:25:09] think that's fascinating. I think
[00:25:10] there's a lot of people you could ask
[00:25:11] that question. They'll never acknowledge
[00:25:13] it's white guilt, but their words
[00:25:16] >> say that. Um, and the number of, you
[00:25:19] know, white people who had strong
[00:25:23] opinions about me saying that, I'm like,
[00:25:24] this doesn't even affect you. Actually,
[00:25:26] none of it does. But it's just amazing,
[00:25:29] James, how 2014 those words, no one said
[00:25:32] a word. It was live on ABC. No one said
[00:25:34] a word.
[00:25:35] >> Did anybody say a word because it was
[00:25:37] owned by Disney and
[00:25:38] >> No, no, no. I think it's just a
[00:25:39] different time.
[00:25:40] >> Different time.
[00:25:41] >> It was a completely different time.
[00:25:42] Obama was still president. Um, and I was
[00:25:45] like, "Okay, you she brought up his
[00:25:46] name. I responded and I'm going to
[00:25:48] choose to identify actually as I am."
[00:25:51] >> And in 2021, the world was much
[00:25:53] different. George Floyd.
[00:25:54] >> That's true.
[00:25:54] >> Think about that. Co George George
[00:25:56] Floyd.
[00:25:56] >> Very true.
[00:25:58] >> Everything was tense and it hit
[00:25:59] different.
[00:26:00] >> It was like a like a matchbox ready to
[00:26:02] ignite. It was It was a tinder box.
[00:26:05] Tinder box.
[00:26:05] >> That That's the comment. Yes. That got
[00:26:07] me in trouble. But more so was the um
[00:26:11] was the vaccine. That was the same
[00:26:13] podcast.
[00:26:13] >> But the bigger and that was the one
[00:26:14] where uh you you said quote and tell me
[00:26:17] if that this is correct. I respect
[00:26:19] everyone's decision but to mandate it is
[00:26:20] sick and it's scary to me in many ways.
[00:26:22] Is that was that something you said?
[00:26:24] >> Yes.
[00:26:24] >> About the V and is that what really got
[00:26:26] you in trouble?
[00:26:27] >> That's what they said initially and then
[00:26:28] they kept kind of changing their story.
[00:26:30] Um, but Disney required all employees,
[00:26:34] ABC, ESPN, Hulu, whatever it is, Disney
[00:26:38] to get vaccinated, fully vaxed by
[00:26:41] September 30th, 2021. And if you didn't,
[00:26:44] then you'd be fine.
[00:26:44] >> Did you get it?
[00:26:45] >> I did.
[00:26:46] >> Yeah.
[00:26:47] >> And I still struggle with that. I feel
[00:26:53] I did what I had to do at the time to
[00:26:54] keep my job, which I loved. I'd worked
[00:26:58] my entire life. M
[00:26:59] >> um I loved my job every minute of it,
[00:27:02] even up to the very end when there was
[00:27:04] an active lawsuit when I was on TV every
[00:27:06] day. But um I needed my job. I had three
[00:27:10] kids, one in college, two on the way. Um
[00:27:13] I had recently gotten divorced. I was
[00:27:16] 100% responsible financially for three
[00:27:19] kids and an ex-husband. Like I need I
[00:27:22] needed that job. And so
[00:27:25] [snorts] to not get the vax,
[00:27:28] I I would have been jobless. And they
[00:27:30] had a right as a private company to fire
[00:27:32] me for that. We look think about that
[00:27:34] four years ago where we were. I think I
[00:27:37] always say this, there's a couple of
[00:27:38] times we never need to forget about in
[00:27:39] American history. Many, but in
[00:27:41] particular 911.
[00:27:43] >> We got to stay angry about that. And #
[00:27:46] never forget CO either because of what
[00:27:49] they did intentionally. We now know
[00:27:51] that. But at that time that was my
[00:27:53] decision. And um when I the day that I
[00:27:57] got the vax was the last possible day in
[00:28:00] order to be fully vaxed by September
[00:28:02] 30th [snorts] and I went directly on
[00:28:04] Jay's show. Like the band-aid on my arm.
[00:28:07] >> That's that's right you just saw.
[00:28:08] >> Yeah. That's the band-aid. Pull pull it
[00:28:11] back up on the screen team. Yeah,
[00:28:13] >> that was actually the day
[00:28:14] >> I literally came straight from getting
[00:28:16] the shot and rushed I was late and I
[00:28:18] rushed in and forgot that the band-aid
[00:28:21] was on my shoulder and I just rushed in
[00:28:23] and did the zoom with Jay.
[00:28:24] >> You forgot that it was on your mean. So
[00:28:26] So basically maybe you were channeling
[00:28:27] some of that righteous information here.
[00:28:29] >> I
[00:28:30] >> on the showciously subconsciously
[00:28:32] >> I swear to swear to God subconsciously I
[00:28:34] did not like it's not cute. I I wouldn't
[00:28:36] have, you know, I I literally the the
[00:28:38] thing was is I was late getting to to
[00:28:41] that taping because I sat in the parking
[00:28:43] lot
[00:28:44] >> before getting the shot.
[00:28:46] >> Yeah.
[00:28:46] >> In tears and saying and
[00:28:50] >> literally I hadn't decided whether or
[00:28:52] not to get the shot until I walked in
[00:28:54] and sat down with tears in my eyes. And
[00:28:57] the the the nurse, whatever she was at
[00:28:59] the grocery store where they
[00:29:00] administered the shot, looked at me and
[00:29:03] saw my red eyes and said, "Are you
[00:29:05] okay?" And I looked back at her and I
[00:29:07] said, "No, I'm being forced to get this
[00:29:10] shot in order to keep my job." And this
[00:29:12] sweet woman grabbed my hand and said,
[00:29:16] "This is so wrong and I am so sorry."
[00:29:19] And when she put it in my arm,
[00:29:23] something changed in me. I didn't know
[00:29:25] until later, but something changed
[00:29:26] because I realized that I had given up
[00:29:29] control of my body and my morals and my
[00:29:32] values and my principles to this
[00:29:34] company.
[00:29:35] >> And I did it for the reasons I told you.
[00:29:38] I I I had no choice. And you know,
[00:29:41] people had said, my agent at the time
[00:29:42] was like, you know, just get a religious
[00:29:46] uh exemption, just get a medical
[00:29:48] exemption, like tell them this, tell
[00:29:50] them that. And I kept on principle. I
[00:29:52] was like, "No, but it's not religious.
[00:29:54] It's not medical. I don't want to lie. I
[00:29:57] think the principle of forcing you to do
[00:29:59] something to your body should be
[00:30:00] enough." And I fought it and fought it
[00:30:02] until they said, "Do you [snorts] want
[00:30:04] your job? Here's your choice." So, had
[00:30:07] had to forgive myself a lot for that.
[00:30:09] But I I went straight on that podcast
[00:30:10] and I in hindsight, I was running hot
[00:30:13] for sure because I was
[00:30:14] >> You you you just cried right before
[00:30:17] this. Oh,
[00:30:17] >> like hour before, 15 minutes before, day
[00:30:20] before. How long before you went on the
[00:30:22] show? Were you in tears?
[00:30:26] >> 10 minutes.
[00:30:26] >> 10 minutes. So, I ran in my house. I
[00:30:29] flipped up the laptop thing to get the
[00:30:31] Zoom set and I went and threw some
[00:30:33] makeup on my face. Usually, extra
[00:30:35] mascara hides the ugly, so I put a lot
[00:30:38] of mascara on and I was like, "Okay,
[00:30:40] maybe he won't see cuz Zoom quality is
[00:30:41] not great." Well, you know, you're in
[00:30:43] television and I'm not in the type of
[00:30:44] television you're in, but I'm also kind
[00:30:46] of in television. And the thing about
[00:30:47] this industry, and tell me if I'm wrong,
[00:30:49] is that when you're on when that when
[00:30:51] that thing I don't care if you have
[00:30:52] bronchitis, you're on. Is that right? Do
[00:30:54] I have that? A Fox News guy told me that
[00:30:56] like I don't care if you have mono. When
[00:30:58] that thing goes on, you just go. Right.
[00:31:00] >> There is something that is it's an
[00:31:04] intangible for sure and it's almost hard
[00:31:05] to describe. And there's something in me
[00:31:08] that that I as a really really shy kid
[00:31:11] growing up to then be able to flip that
[00:31:13] switch when the light came on. Yeah.
[00:31:15] There's an adrenaline rush for sure.
[00:31:16] >> Adrenaline.
[00:31:17] >> So that adrenaline
[00:31:18] >> and I look at everything as live because
[00:31:20] you you know even if it's taped I mean
[00:31:22] you never know.
[00:31:23] >> Correct.
[00:31:23] >> You whoever like once I say it I say it
[00:31:26] and I wouldn't ask someone to edit it
[00:31:27] out. And so with Jay, um, listen, and if
[00:31:30] you find that clip of the the exact
[00:31:32] clip, exact clip of me discussing the
[00:31:34] vaccine, you can see me take a deep
[00:31:37] breath and hesitate because I assumed I
[00:31:40] was live.
[00:31:41] >> Let's play that uh clip, team. U Sage
[00:31:45] assumed she was live. She hesitated.
[00:31:48] >> I mean, I knew I I knew I wasn't. My
[00:31:49] point is my mentality is it's always
[00:31:51] live.
[00:31:51] >> Mentality. The mentality was it was
[00:31:53] live.
[00:31:54] >> And uh we're going to we're going to cue
[00:31:55] that up. Uh who is that with? That's Jay
[00:31:57] Cutler still. This is exact shot today.
[00:32:00] >> So, the fact that I get to be on on Jay
[00:32:02] Cutler's Uncut podcast today, like this
[00:32:04] is such a momentous day in my life.
[00:32:07] [laughter]
[00:32:08] >> You don't even know what's in here cuz
[00:32:09] I'm so mad. Listen,
[00:32:11] >> September 13th. I mean, you you took it
[00:32:14] a long way.
[00:32:16] >> I did. Um I just
[00:32:20] I didn't want to do it, but started
[00:32:22] here.
[00:32:23] >> I work for a company that mandates it
[00:32:25] and I had until September 30th to get it
[00:32:27] done or I'm out.
[00:32:28] >> Were you having to get CO shots like
[00:32:30] weekly or daily?
[00:32:33] >> A test.
[00:32:34] >> Um if you weren't all
[00:32:36] >> What's that?
[00:32:37] >> If you weren't vaccinated, did you have
[00:32:38] to get a COVID test weekly or
[00:32:42] >> No, you're good.
[00:32:43] >> No, they just because there's so few
[00:32:45] people on campus right now. There's
[00:32:46] still We have about 5,000 people on
[00:32:48] ESPN's main campus in Bristol. Um and I
[00:32:51] don't know what the number is. It's
[00:32:53] prepped up, but um it's there's not
[00:32:56] many. And you have six feet distance and
[00:32:58] you have your masks.
[00:32:59] >> I just I do I I I think to mand I
[00:33:04] respect everyone's decision. I really
[00:33:06] do. But to mandate it is um sick
[00:33:10] >> and it
[00:33:13] >> Yeah, there it is. In post, we'll we'll
[00:33:15] put the we'll put the um
[00:33:17] >> the tail end of that that you didn't
[00:33:18] hear. That's the That's probably the
[00:33:20] full clip. Yeah.
[00:33:20] >> Yeah. that it's scary to me in many ways
[00:33:22] and it's it's mandated sick. So you're
[00:33:24] you're you're channeling that that that
[00:33:27] feeling that you had when the grocery
[00:33:28] clerk puts your hand and you just
[00:33:30] realize it almost I hate to say the word
[00:33:32] but a barber of mine who cuts my hair
[00:33:34] said it he did it for the same reason he
[00:33:36] felt like it was kind of like a
[00:33:37] psychological rape. It's just a it's and
[00:33:40] millions of people relate to this by the
[00:33:42] way. The number of people who continue
[00:33:47] to come up to me more than ever, ever.
[00:33:50] The thousands of emails and DMs I got,
[00:33:53] thousands once I said it, that came out.
[00:33:56] I got suspended. I got pulled off the
[00:33:58] air.
[00:34:00] >> Disney employees who wrote me on
[00:34:02] personal accounts to say, "Thank you.
[00:34:05] Please keep speaking up. We're afraid."
[00:34:07] So, I realized through my cancellation
[00:34:12] and then suspension and forced public
[00:34:13] apology, Disney made me apologize and
[00:34:16] they sent it out to the Washington Post
[00:34:17] and the LA Times and Chicago Tribune and
[00:34:20] every every top article or newspaper and
[00:34:24] platform um they sent it to and that's
[00:34:27] when people were like, "Oh my gosh,
[00:34:29] please don't stop." stop. So I realized
[00:34:30] it was bigger than me. But in the
[00:34:32] meantime,
[00:34:34] um
[00:34:36] the thing was is I complied. I complied,
[00:34:39] but they still punished me because
[00:34:42] >> you said you had no choice. And
[00:34:45] >> and that's not true. I did, but I felt
[00:34:47] like I didn't.
[00:34:48] >> Do Do you feel Do you have regrets?
[00:34:50] [sighs]
[00:34:52] I know it's a hard question, but
[00:34:56] >> I
[00:34:57] Yes and no.
[00:34:59] Yes, because I I I for obvious reasons,
[00:35:02] I didn't believe in it. I was scared of
[00:35:04] it. A simple Google search, I say this
[00:35:07] all the time, sing simple Google search
[00:35:09] told me that on average it takes 6 to9
[00:35:11] years for the FDA to approve a vaccine,
[00:35:13] right?
[00:35:13] >> And this was shoved down our throats.
[00:35:16] >> And it was political. We knew that
[00:35:18] because when Trump was being rushed,
[00:35:20] rushed, rushed to create this vaccine
[00:35:22] and get it out to the people, um then
[00:35:25] you had people like, you know, Kla
[00:35:27] Harris and Joe Biden and all the people
[00:35:28] on the left saying, "I'll never touch
[00:35:30] that because it's it's Trump and I'll
[00:35:32] never touch that. What does he know?"
[00:35:33] And then as soon as Biden took office,
[00:35:35] if you don't get that, then you're evil
[00:35:37] and you want your grandma to die. Right?
[00:35:39] So, I realized it was political very
[00:35:42] early on. I I realized the dollars that
[00:35:45] hospitals would get when they designated
[00:35:47] a person with a as a COVID death, even
[00:35:49] if they had a massive heart attack. Like
[00:35:51] if you did a little bit of homework, you
[00:35:53] know about that, you realize that
[00:35:55] something was off here. And so I'm I'm
[00:35:58] disappointed in myself for that. But I
[00:36:00] know that my heart was in the right
[00:36:02] place and I did what I had to do to
[00:36:03] support my family, which is what
[00:36:04] millions of people have to do. And this
[00:36:06] is really important to me now.
[00:36:09] Every part of that had to happen for me
[00:36:11] to be here today.
[00:36:13] If I had
[00:36:15] not done it, I I don't know what would
[00:36:19] have happened. I I I would have been
[00:36:20] fired. Maybe I would have gotten a a
[00:36:22] bigger, better job right away. Probably
[00:36:24] not, because then she didn't take it.
[00:36:27] She's an antivaxer and that's how these
[00:36:29] companies work as well. Think back four
[00:36:31] years ago. I don't regret anything.
[00:36:34] There are times where I would have
[00:36:36] softened wording, not with that but with
[00:36:38] other things or um been stronger, not
[00:36:41] lived in fear, all those things. But it
[00:36:43] takes what it takes like every part of
[00:36:45] that journey.
[00:36:45] >> Yeah. That that that doing that led you
[00:36:47] to to say your truth. Yes.
[00:36:49] >> Perhaps you wouldn't have said it in
[00:36:50] that way and it wouldn't have inspired
[00:36:52] people.
[00:36:52] >> I certainly wouldn't have sued Disney.
[00:36:54] Like
[00:36:54] >> And you did more than what most people
[00:36:56] do in your industry. You did more than
[00:36:59] they did. It's just the the the the
[00:37:01] choiceless choice of of of I mean I hear
[00:37:03] it from so many people. I have to pay my
[00:37:05] mortgage. I have to my children to feed
[00:37:07] and so forth and so on. We give
[00:37:09] thousands of people inside Accenture and
[00:37:10] other places this week saying the same
[00:37:12] thing. And it's a tough choice. It
[00:37:14] >> breaks my heart.
[00:37:15] >> It's horrible.
[00:37:16] >> It breaks my heart because I I knew
[00:37:20] I would land on my feet financially. I'd
[00:37:23] done well enough. I was really blessed
[00:37:25] with great contracts there, you know,
[00:37:27] and so I knew I'd be okay. Um, but
[00:37:29] there's so many people who would not
[00:37:32] have. And so that's one area what I
[00:37:35] where I've really chosen not to judge
[00:37:37] because first of all, people judged me
[00:37:39] for taking it or not taking it,
[00:37:41] whatever. Um, there are people who are
[00:37:44] making nothing and literally need that
[00:37:47] job and felt that they had to make the
[00:37:50] choice as well. And I hugged a woman the
[00:37:52] other day at an event I was at where
[00:37:54] she's so mad at herself for caving, too.
[00:37:57] Um, but it l I'm so again it had to
[00:38:02] happen that way and it changed my life.
[00:38:03] And what it has done is again remind me
[00:38:06] that it's so much bigger than me and my
[00:38:09] kids.
[00:38:10] >> My kids have been right here. They've
[00:38:12] been they were old enough during all of
[00:38:14] this to see it, to feel it, to witness
[00:38:16] it to you. I said your parents, how did
[00:38:19] they how did your children How old were
[00:38:20] they when this happened, by the way?
[00:38:21] 2021. How how old were they?
[00:38:24] >> Um, at the time
[00:38:25] >> 15, 17, 19. what is their perspective on
[00:38:28] this?
[00:38:29] >> It's evolved.
[00:38:31] Um,
[00:38:33] you know, when people come after your
[00:38:35] kids and attack your kids for something
[00:38:38] you said,
[00:38:41] that's when I was like, "Oh gosh, this
[00:38:43] is too much. It's not worth it. It's not
[00:38:44] worth it."
[00:38:45] >> Come after me all you want, but if you
[00:38:47] go after my kids, that's another level.
[00:38:49] >> Mama bear will come out.
[00:38:50] >> Oh, and she did.
[00:38:53] But I
[00:38:55] I couldn't protect them. They saw the
[00:38:58] comments.
[00:38:59] >> Yeah.
[00:39:00] >> Because I I wasn't responding. Then
[00:39:01] they'd go find my kids and then I you
[00:39:04] you just you want to protect them and
[00:39:05] put them in this bubble and you can't.
[00:39:06] >> Well, there that's old enough. They're
[00:39:08] they're of age where they're still
[00:39:11] young, but they're not they're not. Um
[00:39:14] >> the problem is is teachers, coaches,
[00:39:16] other parents
[00:39:18] >> making in their lives would say
[00:39:20] something to them about their mother in
[00:39:21] class. Yeah, that's not
[00:39:23] >> on the sports field, you know. And so
[00:39:25] that's where I was mad. And so
[00:39:27] eventually when I decided to file the
[00:39:30] lawsuit, which only had to do with the
[00:39:34] double standard that ESPN chose to use
[00:39:37] with me and my comments versus my
[00:39:38] co-workers who were allowed to say and
[00:39:40] do whatever they wanted um politically
[00:39:42] because it aligned with Disney's
[00:39:44] narrative.
[00:39:44] >> We have the statement if you could put
[00:39:45] on the screen. Take we're taking us back
[00:39:47] to this moment in space and time from
[00:39:49] what what was this? Winter, spring,
[00:39:50] summer, or fall of 2021.
[00:39:53] >> At this point, this is October of 21.
[00:39:54] >> October. Uh in a statement to CNN, Steel
[00:39:56] said, quote, "I know my recent comments
[00:39:58] created controversy for the company and
[00:40:00] I apologize. We're in the midst of an
[00:40:01] extremely challenging time that impacts
[00:40:03] all of us and it's more critical than
[00:40:04] ever we communicate constructively and
[00:40:06] thoughtfully." It's it sounds like one
[00:40:08] of the what Amy Robach at Good Morning
[00:40:10] America when they put the gun against
[00:40:12] her head in North Korea style. Hi. You
[00:40:14] know,
[00:40:15] >> that's 100% what I was.
[00:40:16] >> Take me back to this moment. How did
[00:40:18] this how did this come to be?
[00:40:20] >> When the podcast came out, my agent
[00:40:22] called and he said, "So, making a couple
[00:40:25] waves here and they're not happy." And
[00:40:26] I'm like, "What about what?" And
[00:40:31] they said, you know, the co comments. I
[00:40:33] said, "What? What's the problem? I took
[00:40:34] their damn shot. Like, what what's the
[00:40:37] problem? I can have an opinion if I'm
[00:40:39] complying with the rules." I knew that.
[00:40:41] Um and they were like no this isn't
[00:40:44] sitting sitting going over well in
[00:40:46] Burbank where Disney headquarters were.
[00:40:48] And so then you know jumping ahead
[00:40:51] basically they said you will sit out for
[00:40:55] an undetermined amount of time. It ended
[00:40:56] up being like 13 days. You will be
[00:40:58] suspended. They don't like to say the
[00:41:00] word suspended because I still got paid.
[00:41:02] I'm like no we have paid suspensions all
[00:41:03] the time in sports leagues. It was a
[00:41:04] paid suspension. Um, and I lost several
[00:41:08] assignments and you must issue this
[00:41:10] public apology. So, there was a
[00:41:12] negotiation with that. I have the email
[00:41:14] chain that went back and forth after an
[00:41:16] hourong phone call to discuss
[00:41:17] >> that published the email chain.
[00:41:19] >> No. And
[00:41:22] if you notice, it said my comments, the
[00:41:25] controversy that my comments created for
[00:41:26] the company.
[00:41:28] >> Throw that back on screen for a minute.
[00:41:30] I know
[00:41:30] >> this part cracks me up.
[00:41:33] >> Controversy for the company. I was not
[00:41:36] allowed to say the word Disney. They
[00:41:38] would only let me say that that was that
[00:41:41] was
[00:41:41] >> the negotiations.
[00:41:43] >> Well, they said she is not allowed to
[00:41:46] say Disney. It's the company. They
[00:41:49] wanted their name left out of of this
[00:41:52] whole thing even though it was obvious.
[00:41:54] >> In these negotiations, they required you
[00:41:56] to issue a public apology in exchange
[00:41:57] for what?
[00:41:58] >> Well, my agent told me that if I didn't
[00:42:00] do the apology, then I'd be fired. So,
[00:42:03] you made the choice, the tough choice to
[00:42:04] make the apology so that you're not
[00:42:07] fired so you can keep you know tough
[00:42:09] >> now. And and also what I didn't
[00:42:11] apologize for um was specifically
[00:42:17] my my I said I'm not going to apologize
[00:42:19] for my comments about race with Obama. I
[00:42:22] can have that opinion. Um or the my
[00:42:26] opinion about the COVID shot, but my
[00:42:28] recent comments created controversy. So,
[00:42:30] I'm apologizing for the controversy.
[00:42:32] Now, you can word smith this, but to me,
[00:42:34] that's where we got where I was not
[00:42:37] comfortable with it, but it was as good
[00:42:39] as it was going to get. Um, and that
[00:42:42] that sucked though because to have that
[00:42:44] apology, to have to do it, and then they
[00:42:46] followed it up with, well, we respect
[00:42:48] everyone's opinions. We're going to
[00:42:50] suspend her. So, that the hypocrisy was
[00:42:52] so
[00:42:52] >> it's also what I take from it is that
[00:42:54] the they had to send a message to the
[00:42:57] others.
[00:42:58] >> Correct. in the
[00:42:59] >> 50,000 other Disney employees. When you
[00:43:02] look at Disney as a whole,
[00:43:03] >> what percentage of those I know this is
[00:43:04] a tough question to answer, but what
[00:43:06] percentage of is it is it 10,000 20,000
[00:43:08] agree with you?
[00:43:10] >> Probably a lot.
[00:43:12] >> I mean, now at the time at the time
[00:43:15] >> I mean I I think
[00:43:17] it would it would be a total yes, but
[00:43:20] since Disney is Disney, if you take the
[00:43:22] parks out of it
[00:43:23] >> Yeah. um where the parks are sadly
[00:43:26] they've changed and it's so woke. Um
[00:43:28] gosh, I would say probably 40%.
[00:43:31] >> Okay, I agree with you cuz I I did a
[00:43:33] story in Disney and I people like hey
[00:43:34] keep keep up the good work like the rank
[00:43:36] and file. I mean they have to send a
[00:43:38] message to other people that this is
[00:43:40] what happens when you speak up
[00:43:42] >> when you when you speak up. They have to
[00:43:44] like a hammer on a nail. Um they have to
[00:43:48] send a deterring effect to others.
[00:43:50] Especially because I was one of the
[00:43:52] longest tenur.
[00:43:54] >> How long were you there at this point?
[00:43:55] >> At that point, I'd been there for 14
[00:43:57] years.
[00:43:58] >> A long time.
[00:43:59] >> That's interesting.
[00:43:59] >> And I mean, as far as women, Linda
[00:44:04] Cohen, for all you Sports Center fans,
[00:44:05] and she's a goat. She's awesome. She had
[00:44:08] not been doing Sports Center
[00:44:09] consistently at that time. So, I was the
[00:44:10] longest tenure female sports caster,
[00:44:12] female Sports Center host. And I was the
[00:44:14] highest paid woman at the network. Like,
[00:44:16] >> really
[00:44:17] >> at the network. So
[00:44:19] >> at ESPN.
[00:44:20] >> Mhm. So point being, I'm only saying
[00:44:23] that part to to your point that like
[00:44:26] they had to use me as an example. Like
[00:44:27] if we're going to crush her, who has
[00:44:30] been the face of fill in the blank for
[00:44:32] years, many things, marketing projects,
[00:44:35] etc., then everyone else listen up.
[00:44:37] Don't say it. The problem is they
[00:44:40] allowed my liberal counterparts who had
[00:44:43] the same similar jobs as me to go on
[00:44:46] ESPN airwaves. That was a podcast with a
[00:44:49] retired NFL quarterback
[00:44:50] >> on a day off on ESPN wave and talk about
[00:44:53] things like abortion on an NBA show,
[00:44:56] >> Row versus Wade being overturned and
[00:44:57] they were she was crying or the alleged
[00:45:00] LGBTQ
[00:45:02] um don't say gay bill in the state of
[00:45:04] Florida on a football show. So that's
[00:45:08] when I said, "No, no, no. You're going
[00:45:10] to suspend me here
[00:45:12] >> for giving my opinion but complying with
[00:45:13] your rules on a separate podcast." But
[00:45:15] then the others since they fall in line
[00:45:17] with Disney narrative, they're allowed
[00:45:19] to do that and not talk about sports on
[00:45:21] a So that's when the when the lawsuit
[00:45:22] came up
[00:45:23] >> and this lawsuit and I have been sued 50
[00:45:25] times, so I always I'm a little wonkish.
[00:45:26] >> I should have called you. You could have
[00:45:28] helped me through it.
[00:45:28] >> I'm a little wonkish when it comes to
[00:45:29] this, but I'm this may not interest my
[00:45:32] audience, but interest me. So, I'm going
[00:45:33] to talk about anyway.
[00:45:34] >> We're standing up to the powers that
[00:45:36] tried to discredit us, silence us, smear
[00:45:39] us, raid us, and throw us in jail.
[00:45:43] They've awakened a sleeping giant. We're
[00:45:46] building a movement of transparency and
[00:45:48] accountability in both the public and
[00:45:50] private sectors [music]
[00:45:51] because we run from nothing. We hide
[00:45:53] from nothing. And when you join and
[00:45:56] [music] get your full access pass, you
[00:45:58] fuel a movement of truth. You, we
[00:46:03] are the media now.
[00:46:06] >> You were punished for off-air speech.
[00:46:08] >> Yeah. Your attorneys argued this was a
[00:46:10] kind of retaliation for exercising your
[00:46:11] right to free expression on a personal
[00:46:13] podcast, not ESPN's airwaves, but this
[00:46:16] wasn't entirely a First Amendment claim
[00:46:18] because in a strict constitutional sense
[00:46:20] since ESPN is a private employer, so
[00:46:23] it's kind of a it's a and you were in
[00:46:24] Connecticut Connecticut at the time. Is
[00:46:26] that is that right? You were in Bristol.
[00:46:28] >> Yes.
[00:46:28] >> ESPN's located in Connecticut. um a
[00:46:31] Connecticut
[00:46:33] free speech and employment retaliation
[00:46:35] claim citing state laws protecting
[00:46:37] employee speech on matters of public
[00:46:39] concern. Is that is that accurate?
[00:46:41] >> That's the part that people didn't
[00:46:43] understand because correct
[00:46:45] constitutional it doesn't it does not
[00:46:47] fall under that. This is a private
[00:46:48] employer. Correct. But the state of
[00:46:50] Connecticut is one of very few, maybe
[00:46:52] the only one, I don't know now, but at
[00:46:54] the time, that has a statute that says
[00:46:56] you are allowed to criticize your
[00:46:59] employer if you're complying with their
[00:47:01] rules. I didn't know that when I made
[00:47:03] the comment. I was, you saw I was
[00:47:05] reacting to Jay's question with a
[00:47:07] band-aid on my shoulder, having come in
[00:47:08] from getting the shot that I thought was
[00:47:10] wrong. I didn't know or care. I had no
[00:47:12] reason to know that. But when when this
[00:47:15] got bigger and my my co-workers were
[00:47:18] allowed to do that and I thought the
[00:47:19] hypocrisy and um a friend of mine, Chris
[00:47:23] Harrison, the former host of The
[00:47:24] Bachelor,
[00:47:25] >> who also got cancelled and basically let
[00:47:28] go by ABC um he saw what was happening
[00:47:32] and called me and said, "You need to,"
[00:47:34] he's a dear friend of mine. He just
[00:47:35] officiated my wedding. He's a great
[00:47:37] friend of mine and he said, "I have an
[00:47:39] attorney. You need to talk to him and
[00:47:41] within 5 minutes I was on the phone with
[00:47:42] his attorney and they did their homework
[00:47:44] and said, "Wait, wait, wait. Yes, it's
[00:47:46] unfair but not, you know, illegal in
[00:47:48] many ways." But the point is, based on
[00:47:51] this statute, you were wrongfully
[00:47:53] punished.
[00:47:54] >> The Connecticut law,
[00:47:55] >> the Connecticut statute,
[00:47:56] >> and you didn't know that when you made
[00:47:57] the comment, but you found that out. And
[00:47:58] and and you went through a year of
[00:48:00] litigation. Did you get through any
[00:48:02] discovery? Were there any depositions?
[00:48:03] >> 16 months total. Nope. Did not get to
[00:48:05] discovery. And in many ways, I kind of
[00:48:07] wanted to because then it would have
[00:48:09] blown up.
[00:48:10] >> They don't want discovery. They don't
[00:48:12] want discovery emails and texts about
[00:48:14] you and
[00:48:14] >> oh my gosh, that would have been like
[00:48:16] that would have been great and I think
[00:48:17] it would have changed a lot for a lot of
[00:48:19] people. Would have been my hope. Um,
[00:48:21] however,
[00:48:22] >> it was 16 months.
[00:48:23] >> 16 months
[00:48:24] >> while I'm on TV every day.
[00:48:25] >> Pre-discovery motions.
[00:48:27] >> Yeah. We never got to discovery. And but
[00:48:29] from the moment of the lawsuit being
[00:48:30] filed to the day I settled with them was
[00:48:33] 16 months of going into work going on TV
[00:48:36] every day with a pending lawsuit
[00:48:37] >> while you're litigating against your own
[00:48:40] employer
[00:48:41] >> against Bob Iger.
[00:48:42] >> How does that feel? It feels kind of
[00:48:44] >> scary.
[00:48:47] Yeah. It's just tense. It's just
[00:48:49] >> every day.
[00:48:50] >> Yeah. Because when I came off
[00:48:51] suspension,
[00:48:53] um there were a few bosses who called me
[00:48:56] and said, "Listen, you've ticked off,
[00:48:58] you know, your co-workers and your
[00:48:59] teammates and people aren't comfortable
[00:49:01] working with you." And they they brought
[00:49:02] me back in like this and I was like,
[00:49:03] "Okay, okay, I'm sorry." I mean, I was
[00:49:06] so scared.
[00:49:06] >> Maybe they were also walking on
[00:49:07] eggshells, too, because they were a
[00:49:09] little afraid of you,
[00:49:11] >> maybe. But they again, they wanted to
[00:49:12] continue to silence me. Like you said,
[00:49:15] the example that they made of me with
[00:49:16] the statement, etc., that was as much
[00:49:18] about sending the message to others as
[00:49:20] it was about punishing me. And so they
[00:49:23] wanted to get me back in that little
[00:49:25] hole and go back to being quiet, sweet,
[00:49:29] pleaser, sage. And I was I did that
[00:49:33] until they continued to allow others.
[00:49:35] Um, listen, I I had never employed the
[00:49:40] services of an attorney. I'd never sued
[00:49:42] anybody. I'd never even honestly for my
[00:49:45] divorce I didn't even you know use a
[00:49:48] real attorney like I didn't do any of it
[00:49:50] like I'd never dealt with anything legal
[00:49:52] in my life and I was scared to death and
[00:49:55] I knew that by suing my company that I
[00:50:00] was working for and handsomely paid by
[00:50:03] that I would be for all intents and
[00:50:05] purposes ending that job and potentially
[00:50:08] that career. But
[00:50:10] that was one of those lines that I knew,
[00:50:13] >> a line in the sand.
[00:50:15] >> Yeah. And
[00:50:15] >> take me back to that decision-m process,
[00:50:17] cuz you're right, once you start suing
[00:50:19] your own employer, it's going to make it
[00:50:21] harder at this I mean, I guess I suppose
[00:50:23] at that point you've already crossed the
[00:50:24] Rubicon, but
[00:50:26] >> still, um, was that an easy decision for
[00:50:29] you to make? Did that require
[00:50:30] consternation? Did you think about it
[00:50:32] for a few days or does it was it
[00:50:34] immediate? I knew I need to do this.
[00:50:37] >> No, it was not immediate. I it it made
[00:50:39] me I I lost like 10 pounds during that
[00:50:42] time and just was so scared because I
[00:50:45] was 11 years old when I announced I
[00:50:47] wanted to be a sports cer. My dream from
[00:50:50] that age as a little girl was to do
[00:50:53] exactly what I was doing at ESPN.
[00:50:56] I was doing and had done things far
[00:50:58] beyond my wildest dreams. And so to sue
[00:51:01] them, like to throw it all away, I knew
[00:51:03] that's what it would be. [snorts] you
[00:51:06] know, you're not going to get another
[00:51:07] contract offer after you sue them. Like,
[00:51:09] it is what it is.
[00:51:11] >> But I, you know, we had asked them if
[00:51:14] they had just apologized.
[00:51:17] We asked Disney for months in ESPN, if
[00:51:19] you just apologized for treating me
[00:51:21] differently than the others. I'm good.
[00:51:22] >> That's probably the hardest thing you're
[00:51:23] asking for right there.
[00:51:25] >> Well, it was a good strategic
[00:51:27] my attorney.
[00:51:28] >> I mean, 99.9% of the people I bust don't
[00:51:32] say, "I'm sorry, James. you got me. I
[00:51:35] atone for my sins. They just their ego
[00:51:37] takes over.
[00:51:38] >> The ego. They laughed. And we asked and
[00:51:40] asked and asked while preparing the
[00:51:42] lawsuit at the same time. And um the
[00:51:45] night
[00:51:47] >> the night before it dropped, I mean it
[00:51:49] was
[00:51:51] >> I was scared to death. Um because then
[00:51:53] there's no turning back because
[00:51:54] >> the complaint for the lawsuit dropped.
[00:51:56] It was uh in 2022 or or thereabouts.
[00:51:59] >> This was April end of April of 22. Yeah.
[00:52:01] April 28th, 2022. But after you made the
[00:52:03] decision to do the lawsuit, you probably
[00:52:05] breathed a little bit of a sigh of
[00:52:06] relief because it's
[00:52:07] >> I did, but I I on a personal level,
[00:52:11] again, I had a daughter who was a
[00:52:12] freshman in college, a son who was a
[00:52:14] senior in high school, and a daughter
[00:52:15] was a sophomore in high school. And so
[00:52:17] the night before, I talked to each one
[00:52:19] of them and the girls were concerned and
[00:52:24] upset and knowing that people would
[00:52:26] probably come after them again as this
[00:52:27] makes headlines like Stage Steel is
[00:52:29] suing
[00:52:30] >> suing Disney, suing the company. Um, I
[00:52:33] apologized to them for what was about to
[00:52:34] happen, knowing that it would probably
[00:52:37] bring more crap their way. Um, I said,
[00:52:40] "I'm sorry. Please don't ever feel the
[00:52:43] need to defend your mom, but if someone
[00:52:45] brings it up to you, I'll all I'll ask
[00:52:46] you to say is to remind people that
[00:52:50] diversity of thought is the most
[00:52:51] important thing. And you don't always
[00:52:53] have to agree with your mom. You can say
[00:52:55] that. I don't agree with my mom, but she
[00:52:56] has the right to have an opinion."
[00:52:58] That's all I told them to say. And and I
[00:53:01] said, "I'm sorry again." And my son, who
[00:53:04] was 17 at the time, I'm crying as I told
[00:53:07] him this, like, "I'm sorry. This is
[00:53:09] what's happening, but I can't be quiet
[00:53:10] anymore." My son looked at me and he
[00:53:12] goes, "Mom, it's about time you stood up
[00:53:14] for yourself." M
[00:53:16] >> and at that moment like I sobbed because
[00:53:20] I was so grateful for his perspective
[00:53:22] but I also realized that this whole time
[00:53:26] all these years when I tried to stay
[00:53:28] quiet to protect them. What was I
[00:53:31] teaching them?
[00:53:33] I was teaching my kids to take the safe
[00:53:36] route and just be quiet. Get the
[00:53:39] paycheck. Keep the peace. Make sure
[00:53:41] everybody likes you. I'm preaching them
[00:53:43] to be strong and stand tall and stand up
[00:53:45] for others. Like I was teaching my kids
[00:53:47] all the right things, but I was living
[00:53:48] the opposite. So I was a freaking
[00:53:49] hypocrite. So when my son said that to
[00:53:52] me, like it sounds cheesy, but I knew
[00:53:55] that even if I lost to Disney, and the
[00:53:58] chances were pretty high. Talk about
[00:54:00] David versus Goliath, right? I mean, hi.
[00:54:03] They can bleed me dry in like eight
[00:54:04] seconds financially. It's Disney.
[00:54:06] >> I'm one person. But even if I had lost,
[00:54:10] I knew that I had won in more important
[00:54:14] ways because my kids saw that their
[00:54:15] mother was not going to take it anymore.
[00:54:17] >> What was that quote from your son again?
[00:54:19] What did he say?
[00:54:20] >> Mom, it's about time you stood up for
[00:54:22] yourself.
[00:54:23] >> That's beautiful,
[00:54:24] >> isn't it?
[00:54:25] >> That's a beautiful statement. How did
[00:54:26] you respond to that?
[00:54:27] >> I just I I like sobbed. Seriously, I
[00:54:30] went over and I just hugged him. And
[00:54:32] >> you were grateful to hear your son. I
[00:54:33] was because I thought they'd be mad at
[00:54:35] me, but I knew that this was bigger than
[00:54:37] all of us and that I had to stand up.
[00:54:40] When I saw my peers being congratulated
[00:54:43] for giving their opinion about
[00:54:45] non-sports topics, political topics on
[00:54:47] sports shows, but I'm doing something
[00:54:50] personally on the side while complying
[00:54:51] with your rules. No. And I listen, I
[00:54:53] lived it and many conservatives at the
[00:54:55] network had lived it for years. So, I
[00:54:58] just I just knew it was enough and and I
[00:55:03] he hugged me and he's just like, "It's
[00:55:06] all right, Mom. I love you and you can
[00:55:08] do this."
[00:55:08] >> Wow.
[00:55:09] >> Um he was 17.
[00:55:10] >> It's a lot of wisdom from a 17-year-old.
[00:55:13] >> I know. He's He was But the fact that
[00:55:16] they saw me for all those years, I
[00:55:19] didn't think they noticed. I didn't
[00:55:21] think they saw me being quiet.
[00:55:23] >> Maybe they saw you with who you really
[00:55:26] were, though. and and you know we you
[00:55:29] weren't quiet to your children. You were
[00:55:30] you were talking to them about these
[00:55:32] issues weren't weren't you? Or
[00:55:33] >> I was and then I would you know smile
[00:55:36] and wave boys smile and wave [laughter]
[00:55:37] and you just go to work. And again, I
[00:55:40] loved my job, James. I didn't I didn't
[00:55:42] want to leave it, but this was more
[00:55:45] important. And um I don't know if I
[00:55:48] shared this with you when we met a few
[00:55:51] weeks back for my show, but um my dad at
[00:55:55] West Point, he made us memorize um part
[00:56:00] of the cadet prayer as kids. And
[00:56:05] that cadet prayer helped me make this
[00:56:07] decision. the cadet prayer. I'm not
[00:56:09] familiar with
[00:56:09] >> cadet prayer at West Point.
[00:56:10] >> Let's pull up the cadet prayer.
[00:56:13] >> Uh I'm not familiar with it.
[00:56:14] >> It's a um this is the part of it that I
[00:56:17] focus on.
[00:56:19] Make me choose the harder right instead
[00:56:22] of the easy wrong and never to be
[00:56:25] content with a half truth when the whole
[00:56:28] can be one.
[00:56:31] Make me choose the harder right than the
[00:56:34] easier wrong
[00:56:34] >> instead of the easy or wrong and never
[00:56:36] to be content with the halftruth when
[00:56:39] the whole can be one.
[00:56:41] >> Never be content with the half-truth. I
[00:56:44] have it up here. Strengthen and increase
[00:56:46] our admiration for honest dealing and
[00:56:48] clean thinking and suffer [snorts] not
[00:56:49] our hatred of hypocrisy and pretense
[00:56:51] ever to diminish. Encourage us in our
[00:56:54] endeavor to live above the common level
[00:56:56] of life. make us to choose the harder
[00:56:58] right instead of the easier wrong and
[00:56:59] never be content with the halftruth. The
[00:57:02] whole can be one. This, you know,
[00:57:03] language is interesting. Words are
[00:57:05] interesting because it's one thing to
[00:57:06] read them. It's another thing to live
[00:57:08] them. It's hard for people to understand
[00:57:10] what that actually means. Make us choose
[00:57:12] the hard or right. Sometimes the hard
[00:57:14] It's also been said sometimes the the
[00:57:16] hard thing and the right thing are the
[00:57:18] same thing. I've heard that said before,
[00:57:20] but that that's a lot of wisdom from a
[00:57:22] 17-year-old. So that did did you find
[00:57:24] when your son said that to you, you
[00:57:26] breathe a little easier afterwards?
[00:57:28] >> I
[00:57:30] I knew that it was the right thing. I
[00:57:33] knew in my gut already, but when my kid
[00:57:35] says it,
[00:57:37] you know, he's a senior in high school.
[00:57:39] He's getting, you know, he's hanging out
[00:57:40] with his friends and graduation and he
[00:57:42] was an athlete and it's like I didn't
[00:57:44] even know he was paying attention to any
[00:57:46] of it. And so I knew that they
[00:57:49] what I hoped from that moment on and
[00:57:52] certainly before but I was reminded at
[00:57:53] that moment was like no matter what
[00:57:55] comes up in their life
[00:57:58] that they knew they couldn't be silent.
[00:58:02] Certainly you have to pick and choose
[00:58:04] your moments, right? Sometimes you got
[00:58:06] to shut up. Sometimes we bite our
[00:58:07] tongue. Fine. But my prayer for them, my
[00:58:12] prayer for so many other people who
[00:58:14] struggle with it when they know
[00:58:15] something's wrong, but there's fear.
[00:58:16] >> Oh, there's millions of people
[00:58:17] struggling with millions. People watch,
[00:58:19] everyone watching is struggling with
[00:58:20] this
[00:58:21] >> with in in so many ways. Not just a
[00:58:23] vaccine. No,
[00:58:24] >> like in a in so many ways. Sometimes
[00:58:26] more important ways, whatever it is. But
[00:58:28] my hope and prayer is that
[00:58:31] you listen to that. Like listen to your
[00:58:33] gut. We I swear to you, we almost always
[00:58:36] know the right thing. We just don't
[00:58:38] choose it because it is harder. It is.
[00:58:41] It would have been easier to continue to
[00:58:43] shut up and keep getting that big
[00:58:45] paycheck and keep being Yay.
[00:58:47] >> I don't think you could have done that.
[00:58:48] >> Well, no, not at that point. No. And
[00:58:49] that's what that that's why I set him
[00:58:51] out.
[00:58:51] >> Just knowing you for two hours, I don't
[00:58:52] think you could could uh I don't think
[00:58:54] you could have it there was a choiceless
[00:58:56] choice for you. In other words, it
[00:58:58] wasn't a choice. You just had to do what
[00:58:59] you had to do. based on that being
[00:59:01] drilled into me my whole life and based
[00:59:03] on being silenced and choosing silence
[00:59:08] for so many years and um it's one thing
[00:59:12] when your kids are little and they just
[00:59:14] they just hey as long as mom did you
[00:59:16] make my lunches during the table can you
[00:59:18] take me to soccer practice great and
[00:59:20] then when they become young adults and
[00:59:21] they watch everything you do
[00:59:24] >> that's just a good point you're a role
[00:59:26] model for them
[00:59:28] >> sometimes they've hated it sometimes
[00:59:30] they've really struggled with it and it
[00:59:31] certainly has affected their lives. Um,
[00:59:33] but you know,
[00:59:36] they have each recently
[00:59:39] told me how proud they are of me. And I
[00:59:43] have probably, you know, as a mom, you
[00:59:45] fail. I fail in a lot of ways. I failed
[00:59:47] in so many ways. I always say to them,
[00:59:50] not always, more recently, I'm like, you
[00:59:52] know what? I'm doing this for the first
[00:59:53] time, too. I've never had a 23-year-old
[00:59:57] >> and a [clears throat] 21-year-old and a
[00:59:58] 19-year-old. like I have today's my
[01:00:00] first day of doing that at your age too.
[01:00:03] And so you just do your best and I know
[01:00:04] I've failed them in in some ways but I
[01:00:06] know that I've tried my best and they
[01:00:08] have seen that as imperfect as it's
[01:00:11] been. But with this part um I know that
[01:00:16] they will be better than me. They won't
[01:00:19] be silent for as long. And that's why I
[01:00:21] wouldn't change anything too because and
[01:00:23] I said this before this again I'm full
[01:00:25] of cheesy lines but um whether it's
[01:00:29] personal or professional I said to them
[01:00:31] please don't waste my pain
[01:00:35] use this [snorts] your mom's little
[01:00:38] thing that made some headlines so who
[01:00:39] cares right but please use this and be
[01:00:41] better than me like be better don't wait
[01:00:45] don't conform
[01:00:47] don't subject yourself to things that
[01:00:49] you know are wrong. Don't wait 50 years
[01:00:54] to be fearless and to be okay being
[01:00:56] disliked. Be true to yourself, please. I
[01:00:59] think any parent wants their kids to be
[01:01:01] better, smarter, stronger, all the
[01:01:03] things. I know for a fact now that they
[01:01:07] already are, and that makes all the crap
[01:01:11] worth it.
[01:01:12] >> That reminds you of the line in Saving
[01:01:13] Private Ryan when he says, "Earn this."
[01:01:16] You know, that that that Yeah. And it's
[01:01:18] so it's so hard for people watching
[01:01:21] because the comment I get again is it's
[01:01:24] exactly opposite of what you're saying.
[01:01:26] It's well I'm not going to do the right
[01:01:28] thing because I do have children. That's
[01:01:30] what people say. What's your retort to
[01:01:33] that?
[01:01:34] >> Your kids are watching everything.
[01:01:37] >> Kids are watching everything.
[01:01:38] >> Your kids see it. See it. Think about
[01:01:40] even even relationships and um divorce.
[01:01:45] And unfortunately, I've been through
[01:01:46] divorce and I got along actually quite
[01:01:48] well with my ex-husband. It was just it
[01:01:50] just wasn't a great fit.
[01:01:52] >> Was that during this or before you got
[01:01:54] >> Oh, it was all at the same time.
[01:01:55] >> It was at the same Did this cause the
[01:01:57] divorce?
[01:01:57] >> No, no, no, no, no, no. I'd been
[01:01:59] divorced a few months before CO hit and
[01:02:01] then this. It was all a great
[01:02:02] >> Because that's another issue is people
[01:02:04] have partners and their their value
[01:02:05] systems aren't aligned and there's a
[01:02:07] mortgage and there's money.
[01:02:08] >> Yeah, for sure. All of it. But no, at
[01:02:10] this point I was already single, but
[01:02:11] that's why I took the the shot is cuz I
[01:02:13] had to pay for everybody, remember? And
[01:02:14] so, um, but no, my point is is that, you
[01:02:18] know, in relationships, adults in
[01:02:19] particular, we think that we're hiding
[01:02:20] things. We think that, you know, we're
[01:02:22] good actors and actresses.
[01:02:24] Kids feel it, too. Sometimes kids don't
[01:02:26] know what they're feeling, but kids feel
[01:02:28] it. And so, in every way, like, as a
[01:02:32] parent, you're not just their mom and
[01:02:33] dad, that you're their leader. And if
[01:02:36] you want them to be better, you must
[01:02:37] live better. you must show it so they
[01:02:39] can emulate that, not emulate the bad,
[01:02:43] the wrong decision, the living in fear,
[01:02:45] whatever it might be. Like, kids see and
[01:02:48] feel so much more than we want them to.
[01:02:51] >> Yeah. I haven't I haven't heard it put
[01:02:53] that way the way you're you're saying
[01:02:54] it, and I think it's very very profound.
[01:02:56] Um, what do your kids now, and you said
[01:02:59] they're 19, 21, and 23, respectively,
[01:03:01] >> do [clears throat] they know what they
[01:03:02] want to do in life at this point in
[01:03:04] their life?
[01:03:05] >> My oldest has a J O, which is awesome.
[01:03:08] She graduated from college in May and
[01:03:10] has her job. Um, and she's she called me
[01:03:14] last night, the night before, two nights
[01:03:15] ago, and she it was a she her job's on
[01:03:19] the road this week. She works in
[01:03:21] furniture sales and a sales associate,
[01:03:23] something she never thought she'd want
[01:03:24] to do. And she's kind of crushing it
[01:03:28] >> and she's learning so much and she's a
[01:03:29] great leader, a great team around her.
[01:03:31] And she called me and we called them
[01:03:33] happy tears, James. and she said, "Mom,
[01:03:36] I've never been happier in my life
[01:03:39] because she's learning to do it by
[01:03:40] herself. She's learning to budget, which
[01:03:43] is a problem for her." And but she's
[01:03:46] independent and she's doing it on her
[01:03:47] own and she's super scared. And she's
[01:03:49] working with people who've been in the
[01:03:50] business for 20 years. But every time,
[01:03:52] so I tell her, I'm like, "Every time you
[01:03:54] push through that fear, you realize, oh
[01:03:57] my gosh, I survived and now I have a
[01:03:58] little bit more knowledge and maybe I
[01:04:00] screwed it up, but now I know how I'll
[01:04:02] do it better the next time." like every
[01:04:04] day you're growing. And for her to say,
[01:04:06] "I've never been happier." Oh my gosh.
[01:04:10] Like that. I I take that as a victory as
[01:04:12] a mom, right? My son is a senior in
[01:04:14] college. He knows what he wants to do.
[01:04:16] Um digital
[01:04:18] media, graphics, graphic design, video
[01:04:20] game producing, and he does the art. Um
[01:04:22] it's tough because now AI is taking over
[01:04:25] that industry. And so he's trying to be
[01:04:27] creative and come up with other things.
[01:04:28] and he's a senior and he's very nervous
[01:04:30] but um I have faith in him and he has
[01:04:34] faith in himself more importantly want
[01:04:35] to have children I need to do that
[01:04:37] >> you can take care [clears throat] of
[01:04:38] that tonight James [laughter]
[01:04:40] I mean listen west Palm Beach there's
[01:04:43] all kinds of I'll stop
[01:04:45] >> I have to be careful about that one
[01:04:47] >> I know
[01:04:47] >> but I I I suppose I could be like Elon
[01:04:50] [snorts] maybe I shouldn't do that
[01:04:51] >> okay one time my mom said my youngest
[01:04:53] brother doesn't have kids yet he's 43 he
[01:04:55] doesn't have kids and she's like you
[01:04:57] know your sister and your older brother,
[01:04:59] they they all have babies. Do you need
[01:05:01] to when are you going to have babies?
[01:05:02] And he's like, "Mom, if you want, I can
[01:05:04] take care of that tonight." And she's
[01:05:05] like, "Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,
[01:05:06] wait, wait. Never mind. Slow down.
[01:05:07] That's gross." So, [laughter] let's not
[01:05:10] >> I've had offers, but I do I genuinely
[01:05:12] want to have children and and I and I
[01:05:14] think it'll it'll be a legacy thing. I
[01:05:16] feel like I do have children. I have
[01:05:17] employees and I have many many many
[01:05:20] whistleblowers that call that talk to me
[01:05:21] on Signal, but um I have real children.
[01:05:24] based on the young man that I know that
[01:05:27] you were. Based on what you said on my
[01:05:29] show, please everybody go watch it
[01:05:31] because you need to watch it.
[01:05:33] >> Sage Steel show. Honestly though, it was
[01:05:35] awesome for me to learn like I've
[01:05:37] watched you for years like millions of
[01:05:39] people, but it was awesome for me to
[01:05:41] know your why. Learn your why. And I'm
[01:05:43] picturing you at your cafeteria
[01:05:47] table in high school sifting through
[01:05:49] newspapers and all the things that you
[01:05:51] said that you did where you knew from
[01:05:52] day one what you wanted to do.
[01:05:54] >> I I didn't know it ostensibly, but I
[01:05:57] subconsciously knew it because I'm
[01:05:58] reading the paper. Yeah, that's right.
[01:06:00] It did the why.
[01:06:01] >> I want Yes, you need to have babies
[01:06:04] because
[01:06:04] >> I will.
[01:06:05] >> All the things that you've been through,
[01:06:07] which are choices.
[01:06:09] >> Yes,
[01:06:10] >> man. [snorts] You're going to have
[01:06:11] strong kids. And thank you for saying
[01:06:13] that. I wouldn't just say it.
[01:06:15] >> I don't think it's a a conscious choice.
[01:06:17] I think for me it's a choiceless choice.
[01:06:19] In other words, I don't know how to do
[01:06:22] anything but what I'm choosing to do. Um
[01:06:26] but I hear you and I and I appreciate
[01:06:28] that.
[01:06:28] >> Here's a question.
[01:06:29] >> Mhm.
[01:06:30] >> What are you willing to sacrifice
[01:06:32] >> for the children?
[01:06:32] >> For the kids, for the for for the
[01:06:34] spouse.
[01:06:34] >> Boundaries with work. I'm gonna have to
[01:06:36] say the word no
[01:06:38] >> to people that need my help. And that's
[01:06:40] going to be very very hard. But we we
[01:06:42] hopefully what we're doing here is we're
[01:06:44] building an organization of people and
[01:06:46] uh people I trust with my life that I
[01:06:49] have to delegate more responsibility and
[01:06:50] authority to so that I can walk away for
[01:06:52] a minute. But it's it's very as Charlie
[01:06:54] Kirk said so poetically, it's like your
[01:06:57] weekends and and and evenings are gone.
[01:07:00] you're you're working 90 hours a week,
[01:07:02] running around the country, doing all
[01:07:03] this, but at some point you have to be
[01:07:05] willing to put a boundary in so that you
[01:07:08] can have the the personal life.
[01:07:10] >> The beautiful part about
[01:07:12] my drama, cancellation, lawsuit,
[01:07:17] starting from scratch. The best part has
[01:07:21] been having the freedom to spend more
[01:07:24] time, to be able to say yes to my kids.
[01:07:28] >> And
[01:07:30] I was very present as a mom. I I made I
[01:07:32] said no to a lot of things, things that
[01:07:33] were really tempting and potentially
[01:07:35] lucrative and really inspired me as a
[01:07:38] journalist and a sports cer because
[01:07:40] there was a dance recital or there was a
[01:07:42] cross country meet or a horse show. All
[01:07:44] my kids were involved in a bunch of
[01:07:45] stuff and
[01:07:48] to be able to be there and be present
[01:07:50] and for my elderly parents to be able to
[01:07:53] say yes to those things now. Um, and am
[01:07:56] I making the money I was making? No.
[01:08:00] Do I get to interview LeBron James and
[01:08:04] those guys anymore? No. No. And
[01:08:08] I don't want to.
[01:08:09] >> Do any of them stay in touch with you
[01:08:10] though? The people? Not really.
[01:08:12] >> No. I mean, if I saw them, I'm sure it'd
[01:08:14] be cordial or they might run the other
[01:08:16] direction because, oh my gosh, she's a
[01:08:17] white right-wing nut job, which I'm not.
[01:08:19] >> Which you're not.
[01:08:20] >> But that's what people put you in that
[01:08:22] corner.
[01:08:22] >> But I'm sure there are certain people
[01:08:23] out there and you probably don't want to
[01:08:24] say their names on the air, but they
[01:08:26] they're secret. They're like, "Keep up."
[01:08:28] >> I have so many people who DM me.
[01:08:29] >> Yeah. But you can't say who they are cuz
[01:08:30] you don't want them to lose their jobs,
[01:08:32] you know,
[01:08:32] >> which I get. Although I do I have lost
[01:08:37] respect
[01:08:38] >> respect
[01:08:39] >> for a lot of people.
[01:08:42] >> Yeah. What's
[01:08:43] >> in particular in particular for the
[01:08:47] protection of women's sports and these
[01:08:50] grown ass men and women but former NFL
[01:08:53] players and NBA players who know damn
[01:08:55] well that there are scientific
[01:08:58] differences in us that have been that
[01:09:00] way since the beginning of time. And for
[01:09:01] them to not condemn men coming into
[01:09:03] their daughter's volleyball games in
[01:09:04] high school or whatever it may be,
[01:09:07] that's where I lose respect because
[01:09:09] those guys have 100 million bucks in the
[01:09:11] bank. What their fear is is of being
[01:09:13] disliked or losing a marketing deal
[01:09:14] which isn't going to change their bottom
[01:09:16] line. So the people who are teachers and
[01:09:20] you know bluecollar Americans who
[01:09:23] literally can't afford to lose their
[01:09:25] jobs like I have more empathy there. I
[01:09:27] get that. But these people are cowards
[01:09:30] when they are choosing to deny science
[01:09:32] and therefore be hypocritical of their
[01:09:35] prior statements of supporting women.
[01:09:37] Those are the guys and gals um because
[01:09:40] I've said for years if all the women,
[01:09:42] forget about the guys, if all the female
[01:09:44] sports journalists in this country, half
[01:09:46] of them stood up and were like, "What
[01:09:49] are we doing guys? This would have ended
[01:09:50] a long time ago. Riley Gaines would
[01:09:52] never have had to do what she's had to
[01:09:54] do." But women and men who've fought for
[01:09:58] half a century and more now for Title
[01:10:01] Nine and women's equality are silent for
[01:10:03] the most obvious thing. So that's the
[01:10:04] part where I say suck it up and do the
[01:10:06] right thing. Like pathetic.
[01:10:08] >> You you did the right thing. You spoke
[01:10:10] up. You faced the price. You lost your
[01:10:12] your the the the you know the glamorous
[01:10:15] so-called glamorous because that's
[01:10:17] another story career for an established
[01:10:20] institution. And it it almost seems to
[01:10:23] me and I was talking to Thomas Drake
[01:10:24] about this earlier is that you act as a
[01:10:28] mirror for people because they you force
[01:10:31] them to confront their own
[01:10:34] inadequacies or demons.
[01:10:36] >> That's why they unfollow me.
[01:10:37] >> That's why
[01:10:38] >> that's why we're not that's why they
[01:10:39] don't want to be friends. I had one
[01:10:40] woman in particular that I loved at
[01:10:42] ESPN, like love love love. she's still
[01:10:44] on air there who, you know, went through
[01:10:47] some tough times and I tried to be
[01:10:49] helpful because I was the vet and I I
[01:10:50] remember what that felt like to be
[01:10:52] younger and newer and like having kids
[01:10:53] and it's a it's a tough time in that in
[01:10:55] that industry in particular. Um, and
[01:10:58] then,
[01:11:00] you know, I got in trouble and
[01:11:03] we were all going to have like a girls
[01:11:04] night and she told the people um that
[01:11:07] were coming, listen, I can't take
[01:11:10] pictures with her. Don't put it on
[01:11:12] Instagram. I can't be seen with her.
[01:11:14] >> Oh gosh, I would have confronted her and
[01:11:16] ambushed her right there.
[01:11:16] >> Well, I wasn't supposed to know. Someone
[01:11:18] else told me and they and that would
[01:11:19] have, you know, implicated them. So, I
[01:11:21] had to walk away from it. But, um, that
[01:11:23] one in particular, cuz I love her and I
[01:11:25] think she's super talented and, um, has
[01:11:28] a great heart. But that one in
[01:11:30] particular
[01:11:31] >> hurt.
[01:11:32] >> That one really got me because it's like
[01:11:34] wait, you know, it's funny like people
[01:11:36] want to be around you when you're
[01:11:38] helpful to them or you fit in a box and
[01:11:41] aren't controversial when and I think
[01:11:43] that's the thing and you've experienced
[01:11:44] it when when people know your heart but
[01:11:46] still continue to [sighs]
[01:11:49] >> it's that's a tough one [clears throat]
[01:11:50] and and
[01:11:52] >> I I was again bringing up Drake. There's
[01:11:54] a book about whistleblowing and
[01:11:56] whistleblowing is just a I don't like
[01:11:58] the word whistleblowing. I think it's
[01:11:59] more of like a person of conscience, man
[01:12:02] or woman of conscience. And in the book,
[01:12:04] it talks about it's not even your boss
[01:12:06] that that you know retaliates against
[01:12:08] you because they're operating in their
[01:12:10] own self-interest. They're trying to
[01:12:10] protect the corporation, their company
[01:12:12] man. It's often the people the men
[01:12:14] beside you, who didn't have your back,
[01:12:16] who weren't there for you, who secretly
[01:12:19] agreed with you, but then shoved a knife
[01:12:21] in my back. Let me give you a quick
[01:12:22] personal anecdote. when I was fired from
[01:12:24] the company I created. The security
[01:12:25] guard, the man who I paid for years, who
[01:12:28] was at the front door greeting me every
[01:12:29] morning, [laughter] he helped me escort
[01:12:32] my stuff out of the building. It's those
[01:12:34] moments and that woman who who said what
[01:12:36] she said, even though secondhand, it
[01:12:38] just breaks your heart that that someone
[01:12:40] would say that. Another quick anecdote,
[01:12:42] we're doing an event, citizenjournalism
[01:12:44] gala.com. Shameless plug. Mara Lago
[01:12:46] November 13th for our whistleblowers,
[01:12:49] people in the border patrol, people who
[01:12:52] are federal employees who lost their job
[01:12:54] and pension. Rick Dante, Florida Tech
[01:12:56] professor, and one of the people emailed
[01:12:59] me, I won't say who. And she said, um,
[01:13:03] uh, this was a chief of staff for
[01:13:05] someone I work with, and she said,
[01:13:06] "Which famous people are going to be at
[01:13:08] Tragala James?" And I [snorts] and I
[01:13:10] responded, I said, "Well, here are all
[01:13:11] the names of the whistleblowers." Yeah.
[01:13:13] Yeah. Yeah. But but who what big names
[01:13:15] are going to be there? And I was just
[01:13:17] like, are you out of your mind? Like,
[01:13:19] >> wow.
[01:13:21] You're talking to the Price is my life
[01:13:23] guy, the the Project Veritas guy, the
[01:13:26] OMG guy, and you're asking me about but
[01:13:28] but human nature. You're you're you're
[01:13:31] dealing with something involving human
[01:13:32] nature with that woman who said what she
[01:13:35] said about you. I can't be seeing a
[01:13:37] picture with that. It's just people's
[01:13:39] >> and and I'm pretty sure she agrees with
[01:13:42] me, her family agrees with me on a lot
[01:13:44] of these things. And um you know, but
[01:13:48] it's okay because what it has done, it
[01:13:50] has made my circle so much smaller and
[01:13:54] it's easier. And listen, I was naive.
[01:13:56] I've always been way too trusting of
[01:13:57] people and just, you know, and I never I
[01:14:00] don't want that to change in many ways.
[01:14:01] I still want to be glass half full and
[01:14:03] think about the good in people. Um, but
[01:14:06] I'm a little wiser now after that
[01:14:08] experience. And I needed it. I needed
[01:14:10] it. I did. And and but but I also think
[01:14:13] you have to be careful because you don't
[01:14:15] want to stop helping others. You don't
[01:14:18] want to completely close up and not
[01:14:20] allow yourself to experience new
[01:14:22] friendships like new relationships, new
[01:14:24] whatever.
[01:14:24] >> Did you get new friendships after this?
[01:14:26] Did you develop new friends? Any new
[01:14:28] friends?
[01:14:29] >> Yes. So many. So many. Not there.
[01:14:31] [laughter]
[01:14:32] I mean,
[01:14:33] >> not ESPN perhaps.
[01:14:35] >> So many new new everything like honestly
[01:14:38] to leave and then um be able to start my
[01:14:41] own show
[01:14:42] >> and to get to interview who I want to
[01:14:44] interview. I started my own company and
[01:14:47] it's crazy. I never wanted to like I
[01:14:50] never wanted any of that. I liked going
[01:14:51] to a network with you know a great team
[01:14:53] of producers and researchers and then I
[01:14:55] can I had a two-hour live show on
[01:14:57] national TV every single day and it was
[01:14:59] a lot of work. We wrote everything. um
[01:15:02] highlights and interviews and all that
[01:15:03] and it was a lot every day and I loved
[01:15:05] it and I then I could do it, crush it,
[01:15:08] walk out the door, go home with my I
[01:15:09] don't have to worry worry about the next
[01:15:11] day like it's not my company,
[01:15:12] >> you're not the owner,
[01:15:13] >> right? So that's changed and that's been
[01:15:15] hard and intimidating and scary and I
[01:15:16] hate it.
[01:15:17] >> Exly. But that's how the media has
[01:15:18] changed. Everything is way look at the
[01:15:20] media in general and how the mainstream
[01:15:24] media and the legacy networks are pretty
[01:15:27] much dead.
[01:15:28] >> I agree with you. the demographics of
[01:15:29] the people who watch those, you know,
[01:15:31] probably 55 and up. Um, because they
[01:15:33] don't only because they don't know how
[01:15:34] to get on YouTube TV, you know.
[01:15:36] >> When you did your pieces on ESPN, were
[01:15:37] they pre pre-produced, written, and
[01:15:39] edited pieces for the most part?
[01:15:41] >> I mean, at Sports Center, when I did
[01:15:42] Sports Center, it was live.
[01:15:44] >> It was all live.
[01:15:44] >> All live. All live. And I did NBA
[01:15:47] Countdown for four years, the pregame
[01:15:48] halftime.
[01:15:48] >> Mostly live television.
[01:15:49] >> Oh, all live. Yeah.
[01:15:50] >> Well, that's that's not dissimilar, I
[01:15:53] suppose, to But like 60 minutes is
[01:15:55] different. It's like pre-produced
[01:15:56] package, but you're doing my job.
[01:15:57] >> Produced.
[01:15:58] >> This is James O'Keefe. You know [music]
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[01:17:16] >> So, your your stuff wasn't it was it was
[01:17:18] all live.
[01:17:19] >> It was all live. Now, I would know if I
[01:17:21] was having, you know, our analyst if
[01:17:22] Adam Shuffer was coming on to talk NFL,
[01:17:25] I we knew and we discussed topics and
[01:17:27] they would give us um, you know, basic
[01:17:30] guiding questions for what he wanted to
[01:17:32] talk about. It would go along with this
[01:17:34] B-roll and the graphics and the sound
[01:17:36] bites. Like, it's produced, but um, nine
[01:17:38] times out of 10, I changed whatever
[01:17:40] question they gave me because I didn't
[01:17:41] like it.
[01:17:41] >> Did you like it live? Do you like live?
[01:17:43] >> I prefer live.
[01:17:43] >> You prefer live?
[01:17:44] >> Oh my gosh. Please. Yes. I don't know
[01:17:46] what that is. It's probably something
[01:17:47] sick [laughter] where you're like the
[01:17:49] adrenaline rush. Um, but I and then
[01:17:51] every once you would tape pre-tape an
[01:17:53] interview if the guest couldn't be there
[01:17:55] live, then you tape it 10 minutes before
[01:17:57] the show. But otherwise, it's all live
[01:17:59] and you know highlights. You get a shot
[01:18:01] sheet um of okay, here's your play. It's
[01:18:05] third [snorts] and two on the 25 yardd
[01:18:06] line with two minutes to go and and then
[01:18:09] the play itself and then the result. But
[01:18:10] then that's generic. You tell a story
[01:18:14] with each play on each highlight sheet
[01:18:16] and if I'm doing 20 highlights a show
[01:18:19] between NBA, NFL, like there's so much
[01:18:23] to know every single day. And I love
[01:18:24] that pressure.
[01:18:26] >> A very specific calling that you had at
[01:18:29] a young age. How did you know you wanted
[01:18:30] to be a sports cer?
[01:18:32] >> Because I knew I wouldn't be a good
[01:18:33] enough athlete to do anything play
[01:18:35] anything past high school. And I wanted
[01:18:36] to be in it. And the reason I wanted to
[01:18:38] be in it is because as a fan just
[01:18:41] watching on TV,
[01:18:43] I literally felt
[01:18:46] people coming together via sport on a
[01:18:50] football Sunday, 80,000 people down the
[01:18:53] road at Hard Rock Stadium in Miami. And
[01:18:56] for those three hours, aside from a
[01:18:59] couple of pockets of Buffalo Bills fans
[01:19:01] at the Dolphin Stadium,
[01:19:02] >> Buffalo Bills team exactly
[01:19:06] besides whoever the visiting team is, a
[01:19:08] couple of those fans, you've got, call
[01:19:10] it 75,000 other fans, and you I don't
[01:19:13] know you, but we're sitting next to each
[01:19:15] other and we're high-fiving. And guess
[01:19:16] what doesn't matter? Our race, our sex,
[01:19:19] our religion, our politics, our
[01:19:21] socioeconomic status. None of it matters
[01:19:24] in sports teams. I spent my life, most
[01:19:27] of my career, not all of it, in NFL and
[01:19:29] NBA locker rooms and black, white,
[01:19:32] green, Jewish, like it didn't matter.
[01:19:34] Sport was the one area that was sacred
[01:19:38] where none of it mattered and you just
[01:19:39] were wanted to win and you had to win
[01:19:41] together and wanted to be a part in the
[01:19:44] last 5 years. little bit but I
[01:19:46] >> but when I graduated from college in
[01:19:48] 1995 and when I said I wanted to do this
[01:19:50] in 1984 watching
[01:19:52] >> well that was a different world
[01:19:53] >> right but it does still exist
[01:19:55] >> it's also very um precocious of you and
[01:19:59] to to understand human nature that early
[01:20:02] on like the world's changed so much
[01:20:05] since the 1980s and '90s
[01:20:07] >> but I still I still want to hang on to
[01:20:08] it because I believe that people of all
[01:20:11] demographics even younger people are
[01:20:13] desperate for that desperate to just be
[01:20:16] a fan, desperate to not have Black Lives
[01:20:18] Matter in the end zone.
[01:20:19] >> Well, that's true.
[01:20:20] >> And for the most part, guess what?
[01:20:23] >> We ignore it. Does anybody look at those
[01:20:25] end zones or the the the panels along
[01:20:27] the sidelines at an NBA game and be
[01:20:29] like, "Black lives matter." Yes. Yes. I
[01:20:33] mean, maybe 5 years ago they did or
[01:20:35] whatever the political saying is of the
[01:20:38] day. Like,
[01:20:40] I don't even see that. We ignore it now.
[01:20:43] But if those virtue signalers feel
[01:20:45] better about it, great. 99% of people in
[01:20:49] sports, athletes as well. I mean, of
[01:20:52] course, you have some naysayers on the
[01:20:54] side in the WNBA and certainly NBA, but
[01:20:57] like people are playing sport for the
[01:21:01] love of the game and the love of each
[01:21:02] other. And it still exists. I see it all
[01:21:05] the time. But
[01:21:08] you [snorts] know, we have done a really
[01:21:09] good job of helping divide by the clips
[01:21:12] we post on social media and um the
[01:21:14] athletes that some of them haven't
[01:21:16] helped as well. But I believe the
[01:21:17] inherent good of sport is still
[01:21:22] >> Is that something that your parents
[01:21:24] gifted to you or in instilled in you?
[01:21:26] Your your your West Point father?
[01:21:28] >> Yeah. Yeah. My dad, he was a um football
[01:21:32] player at West Point.
[01:21:33] >> Oh, really?
[01:21:34] actually the first black to ever play
[01:21:37] varsity football at
[01:21:38] >> West.
[01:21:39] >> He broke the color barrier in 1966.
[01:21:42] Made history there and was actually
[01:21:44] drafted in the NFL by the Detroit Lions
[01:21:46] in the 17th round back when they had 17
[01:21:49] rounds.
[01:21:50] >> No, because back then if you went to a
[01:21:52] service academy, Army, Navy, Air Force,
[01:21:55] um although we don't count Air Force as
[01:21:57] much as we count Army and Navy,
[01:21:59] >> then you had to serve your five years.
[01:22:01] Ah,
[01:22:02] >> and then um and then at that point, for
[01:22:05] the most part, athletically, you know,
[01:22:07] your prime is gone and you're not going
[01:22:09] to come back to be an NFL player or, you
[01:22:11] know, David Robinson served and came
[01:22:13] back and played, you know, famously for
[01:22:15] the San Antonio Spurs, but it's a
[01:22:16] different time in the 60s and 70s. And
[01:22:18] so, I grew up watching sitting next to
[01:22:22] my dad on the couch and watching sports
[01:22:24] and um memorizing all the jersey names
[01:22:27] and all the positions. And
[01:22:28] >> my hero was Doug Fluty. really BC.
[01:22:32] [laughter]
[01:22:33] >> Look at that.
[01:22:33] >> It's a picture of your dad. I believe
[01:22:35] >> that's him.
[01:22:37] >> Picture put up on the screen for the
[01:22:38] audience.
[01:22:39] >> Handsome. [snorts]
[01:22:40] >> That's the West Point football team.
[01:22:42] >> Army football. That's probably 1966.
[01:22:45] And think about this. At that time,
[01:22:48] >> he play he was a tight end. He was 66
[01:22:52] and a half, 220 lbs. Back then, that was
[01:22:55] a big man.
[01:22:57] >> Yeah. I mean, he's going to be 80 next
[01:23:00] summer. He's lost three or four inches
[01:23:02] because of knee replacements and neck
[01:23:04] surgeries and
[01:23:05] >> 66 220. That's about Michael Jordan
[01:23:07] size.
[01:23:08] >> Yeah.
[01:23:09] And he Hall of Fame, Army of Sports Hall
[01:23:12] of Fame for football and track. Um, he
[01:23:15] was a stud. And so did his his career in
[01:23:18] the service 23 years. Retired Colonel.
[01:23:20] >> 23 years in the service. He's West Point
[01:23:22] mandate mandates five years, right? Or
[01:23:24] something like that.
[01:23:25] >> They still mandate that. I don't know.
[01:23:27] They still do.
[01:23:28] >> Yes.
[01:23:28] >> So,
[01:23:29] >> so that that's where it began. And I I
[01:23:31] was always a daddy's girl and I I I just
[01:23:34] I wanted to be around him as much as
[01:23:36] possible. And whether he was playing
[01:23:38] sports as a a young father or we were
[01:23:41] watching sports, living in different
[01:23:43] countries, watching the one or two
[01:23:44] American channels that existed on those
[01:23:46] old TVs.
[01:23:47] >> Yeah.
[01:23:48] >> Um that's what we did on the weekends.
[01:23:49] And it was it's where it all began. I
[01:23:53] was a big football fan in the 1990s and
[01:23:56] then this is just my brief sports story.
[01:23:59] I was obsessed with the Buffalo Bills
[01:24:01] cuz my dad's from Buffalo area [snorts]
[01:24:03] and then they lost four straight Super
[01:24:05] Bowls and I was like eight or nine.
[01:24:07] >> It was that's brutal. Four straight.
[01:24:09] >> Four straight was bad.
[01:24:11] >> And then they got this guy Doug Fluty
[01:24:13] who was like 5 foot n became a Fluty
[01:24:16] fanatic and then they benched this is
[01:24:18] like inside football stuff. They benched
[01:24:20] Fluty in a in a game called the Music
[01:24:23] City Miracle with the Tennessee Titans.
[01:24:25] >> Do you think I've Are you Are you saying
[01:24:26] this for your audience or for me?
[01:24:27] Because you know I know this.
[01:24:28] >> I don't I I know I know you do, but I
[01:24:31] >> Okay, let's just Okay,
[01:24:33] >> Frank, Jack, keep going.
[01:24:34] >> I just No, I've never said this publicly
[01:24:36] in my entire life because I've had no
[01:24:38] reason to, but I'm talking to you, so
[01:24:39] I'm going to say it.
[01:24:40] >> So, they bench my hero, the 5 foot n
[01:24:44] you know, politically incorrect. He's my
[01:24:46] hero. 5 foot n
[01:24:48] You can't say that. You have to
[01:24:50] say little person.
[01:24:50] >> Little person my hero. So I can say I I
[01:24:54] go to Giant Stadium to watch Doug Fluty
[01:24:56] jump over these people throw a football
[01:24:59] and everyone's the Jet. By the way, the
[01:25:01] Jets fans are the worst fans. They're
[01:25:03] scream saying horrible things to me.
[01:25:05] Things I can't even say on I can't even
[01:25:07] say the words. It was so bad. Throwing
[01:25:10] fluy flakes in my face. Cigars.
[01:25:12] [laughter] This is the 1990s. Different
[01:25:14] era. people smoking cigars, blowing it
[01:25:16] in my face, cursing me off. I'm a little
[01:25:18] kid. I'm 13 years old. Doug Fluty, they
[01:25:21] benched Doug Fluty in a game with the
[01:25:23] Tennessee Titans after the heroic
[01:25:26] lateral pass or whatever it was, which
[01:25:28] maybe was an inch over
[01:25:30] >> and I honest to God 1999 20 I said I'm
[01:25:33] done. I can't I can't take it. I can't I
[01:25:35] I was
[01:25:37] >> I was so broken. I was brokenhearted.
[01:25:40] They lose four straight Super Bowls.
[01:25:42] They benched my hero 1999. That's my
[01:25:46] football story. And I I just never I can
[01:25:48] never get there. He is Doug Fluty. I
[01:25:50] used to watch him play at Giant Stadium.
[01:25:53] >> They played the Jets twice a year. Once
[01:25:55] in Buffalo and once in and this is at
[01:25:57] the old Giant Stadium [sighs]
[01:26:00] >> and I never got really back into it. And
[01:26:02] I think the problem I have present day
[01:26:05] honestly that
[01:26:06] >> that's so sad that that was the end for
[01:26:07] you.
[01:26:08] >> I'm just being honest. Project Truth
[01:26:09] here. Um, I hate to say it, but it is
[01:26:12] the truth. My dad's still a Bills
[01:26:14] fanatic. And I and I have to say, I
[01:26:17] think a lot of people, my audience, will
[01:26:20] living vicariously through me here
[01:26:22] because almost everybody I talk to now
[01:26:24] in in in my little world, for them, it's
[01:26:27] like sports ball is just not real. So
[01:26:30] there's so much tragedy and and
[01:26:32] injustice in the world and we're going
[01:26:34] through [clears throat] all this with
[01:26:35] the pandemic and the pandemic and all of
[01:26:37] the the the crimes against humanity and
[01:26:39] the corruption in our
[01:26:41] >> it's hard it's hard for me to sus I'm
[01:26:43] just speaking personally it's hard for
[01:26:44] me to suspend my disbelief to borrow a
[01:26:47] drama term and attend a game where
[01:26:50] people throw a ball around
[01:26:51] >> and but that's why it still exists to
[01:26:54] the level it does because people need an
[01:26:55] escape from all the atrocities that
[01:26:57] you're describing. Like literally, they
[01:26:59] need an escape. Which is also why people
[01:27:01] got pissed off when you insert politics
[01:27:03] into it and are divisive because that
[01:27:05] was the one safe space where you could
[01:27:08] escape. And like I said,
[01:27:10] >> when I was that little girl and realize
[01:27:12] that, wow, your race, none of that
[01:27:14] matters. You're just excited that your
[01:27:16] bills are winning and almost on the way
[01:27:18] to the Super Bowl or losing,
[01:27:19] >> coming in second place.
[01:27:20] >> No, but that's where I I still I I do
[01:27:24] still find so much joy in watching. Not
[01:27:26] as much. I do admit that I've needed a
[01:27:28] break and when it's 30 years
[01:27:29] >> it's not as much joy as you used to have
[01:27:31] watching.
[01:27:31] >> I just wasn't able to be a fan. I always
[01:27:34] had to be worrying about statistics and
[01:27:35] what's next and I'm watching games. I'm
[01:27:38] watching game I was watching games
[01:27:39] thinking about my questions for the next
[01:27:41] day. Do you know what I mean? So I was
[01:27:42] always in it and not
[01:27:44] >> your job not your
[01:27:45] >> Yeah. But it was the best job ever. I'm
[01:27:46] just saying I looked at it differently
[01:27:48] and now I'm trying to care about my
[01:27:50] fantasy team and not
[01:27:51] >> What is your favorite teams in the
[01:27:53] leagues? Um, I honestly I honestly don't
[01:27:56] really have favorite teams. I have I
[01:27:58] have favorite people or players or
[01:27:59] coaches just because I've gotten to know
[01:28:02] the people and then sometimes I I know
[01:28:04] too much. So, I'm like, don't cheer for
[01:28:05] that team. I'm not going to tell you
[01:28:06] why, but don't cheer for that team. Um,
[01:28:09] >> I do it's NFL's always been my first
[01:28:11] love just cuz that's what um I did with
[01:28:14] my dad and my brother works in the NFL.
[01:28:17] So, um we root for the Ravens because
[01:28:19] he's he works for the Baltimore Ravens.
[01:28:22] Um, and if they win, he gets a bonus.
[01:28:23] And I like my nieces and nephews more
[01:28:26] than I like him, actually. So, I'm
[01:28:27] kidding. Um, but I will say
[01:28:31] basketball, college hoops, and more now
[01:28:34] college football because my husband is
[01:28:35] an obnoxious Notre Dame fan. It's like
[01:28:38] non-stop. So, um,
[01:28:40] >> so I have to like, listen, if if Notre
[01:28:42] Dame wins, he's happy. So, I have to
[01:28:44] root for
[01:28:45] >> my grandfather was a fanatic. Not
[01:28:48] fighting Irish. Yes.
[01:28:49] >> Is he Catholic?
[01:28:50] >> Yes. He called me Irish growing up.
[01:28:52] Yeah. Lou Holtz, the the the coach from
[01:28:54] the 90s. I remember
[01:28:55] >> You're once again not not informing me
[01:28:56] about who Lou Holtz is, [laughter] are
[01:28:57] you? Because I because I interviewed him
[01:29:00] and I worked with him.
[01:29:01] >> Speaking of people you interviewed, what
[01:29:04] on a positive note, what is your name?
[01:29:08] Name a couple great
[01:29:09] >> Lou Holtz.
[01:29:10] >> I got in 1997. I was in Lou Holtz's
[01:29:13] office in Southbend, Indiana at Notre
[01:29:16] Dame. And I wasn't a sports cer yet
[01:29:18] because I they wouldn't let me in
[01:29:19] sports, but I was a news reporter and I
[01:29:20] begged my way in that day and whoever
[01:29:23] was the sports reporter couldn't go. So
[01:29:25] I just did an interview with him and at
[01:29:26] the end first he tried to hook me up
[01:29:28] with his son Skip Holtz which no. And
[01:29:32] secondly, I got him to do the Macarena
[01:29:35] on camera.
[01:29:36] >> What year What year was this?
[01:29:38] >> 97.
[01:29:39] >> Wow.
[01:29:40] >> Do you remember the Macarena? I
[01:29:41] >> I remember that. Yes.
[01:29:44] [laughter]
[01:29:44] >> I remember that. You have to like thrust
[01:29:45] your hips.
[01:29:46] >> That was in fifth grade, 1995. The
[01:29:54] mad
[01:29:56] I was Yeah. fifth grade 1995.
[01:29:58] >> Okay. That's annoying.
[01:30:00] >> Yeah.
[01:30:00] >> I was graduating college, but I got him
[01:30:03] to do that, which was amazing because he
[01:30:04] was Lou Holtz. And I didn't like Notre
[01:30:06] Dame, but I liked
[01:30:08] him. I thought he was a great leader and
[01:30:10] I loved how he was just himself and spit
[01:30:12] all over everybody when he was talking.
[01:30:15] I did an interview with him like a year
[01:30:16] ago. I was on his show and I think he's
[01:30:18] 90.
[01:30:19] >> Is he still alive?
[01:30:20] >> Yes. Yes. And he's so sweet and he's
[01:30:23] principled.
[01:30:24] >> Lou Holtz quote and I use this in my
[01:30:27] leadership of my team is when asked how
[01:30:30] do you keep the enthusi everyone on your
[01:30:33] team so enthusiastic and he responded
[01:30:35] and said easy. I get rid of the ones who
[01:30:37] are not enthusiastic. That's my favorite
[01:30:40] man. That's a leader
[01:30:42] >> that so so everybody here in this office
[01:30:43] is very enthusiastic I take it or you
[01:30:45] would have gotten [laughter]
[01:30:46] >> yeah I'm not I I have standards and and
[01:30:49] uh I mean we we keep we people don't who
[01:30:52] don't share our values don't
[01:30:54] >> interviews Tiger Woods
[01:30:56] >> Tiger Woods
[01:30:56] >> but but that wasn't even in person that
[01:30:57] was during
[01:30:58] >> co name like a couple people that are
[01:31:00] good that you admire that you
[01:31:02] >> Phil Mickelson
[01:31:03] >> Phil Mickelson
[01:31:04] >> yeah I like him a lot
[01:31:05] >> and Tiger Woods good you you admire
[01:31:07] >> yeah I didn't know him well um and don't
[01:31:09] but I hope to at some point I'd love to
[01:31:11] But men that you've met, maybe you had a
[01:31:13] chance to know public names who are good
[01:31:14] men, men of virtue. You admire them.
[01:31:16] Good place.
[01:31:17] >> I always admired Stephen Curry.
[01:31:19] >> Stephen Curry.
[01:31:20] >> I don't like his politics. I'm sure he
[01:31:21] doesn't like mine. He might hate me now.
[01:31:22] I don't know. But I always respected
[01:31:24] him.
[01:31:24] >> What did you respect about him?
[01:31:25] >> Um, he was always kind. He was always
[01:31:28] respectful. He always answered
[01:31:30] questions. I knew a lot of athletes who
[01:31:32] were the superstar and then if a game
[01:31:34] didn't go their way, they fumbled on the
[01:31:35] 2-yard line and then they lost the game,
[01:31:37] they would leave the locker room and not
[01:31:38] man up. But they were always there when
[01:31:40] they scored, right? Or they won. So the
[01:31:42] guys who were there win, lose or draw
[01:31:44] and were respectful and professional to
[01:31:46] the media,
[01:31:48] >> those of us in the media who were
[01:31:49] respectful to them, like we have to earn
[01:31:51] it. And
[01:31:52] >> he manned up and talked to you even
[01:31:53] though he wanted to put his head between
[01:31:55] his legs
[01:31:55] >> every single time.
[01:31:56] >> Interesting.
[01:31:57] >> Um, do you remember Tony Saragusa
[01:31:59] >> from the Ravens?
[01:32:00] >> Yeah.
[01:32:01] >> The Browns.
[01:32:02] >> Ravens and Colts. He won the Super Bowl.
[01:32:04] >> I remember that. Yes.
[01:32:05] >> Won the Super Bowl with the Ravens.
[01:32:06] >> Okay.
[01:32:07] >> Um,
[01:32:07] >> the Goose.
[01:32:08] >> Goose. Yeah, he died a few years ago
[01:32:10] suddenly. He was a good friend and he
[01:32:12] every when I covered the Ravens, which
[01:32:14] was right after the Super Bowl year 01
[01:32:17] to05, so those five seasons
[01:32:21] whenever there was a tough game, you
[01:32:23] know, my I'm friends now with Ray Lewis
[01:32:25] and always have been, but sometimes
[01:32:27] those guys are tough, the big stars and
[01:32:29] like they wouldn't they're like, "Nah,
[01:32:30] Sage, no." And I'm like, "Dude, you
[01:32:32] promised me." And they wouldn't do it.
[01:32:34] And I had I had a two-hour live postgame
[01:32:36] show that I hosted by myself. And so I'
[01:32:38] I would be in the chair getting live
[01:32:40] guests. The coach would come in and then
[01:32:41] I'd have to go in the locker room and
[01:32:43] like beg people and some of them were
[01:32:45] like after a loss they're like no. But
[01:32:47] Goose would always do it. And Goose
[01:32:49] would come in,
[01:32:50] >> all 360 lbs of them and squeeze his butt
[01:32:55] into a director's chair that we were
[01:32:58] convinced was going to break every time.
[01:32:59] And somehow he got out of it. But like
[01:33:02] he saw me trying. He saw that I was a
[01:33:06] pro and came prepared. I felt like I had
[01:33:08] to as a woman be extra prepared and then
[01:33:11] he did it like he would he would do it
[01:33:13] for me and he um later in his life when
[01:33:16] I you know got [gasps] political by
[01:33:18] accident and then got you know canceled
[01:33:20] and all that he sent so many supportive
[01:33:22] messages. Um there's also a lot of a lot
[01:33:25] of coaches who have reached out quietly
[01:33:28] and said keep it up. Some team owners
[01:33:30] keep it up. Um, and so that that means a
[01:33:34] lot. But I just honestly
[01:33:37] I got to live the dream that I announced
[01:33:43] to my parents at 11 years old. Like, I
[01:33:45] got to do it. I got to do all of it. It
[01:33:48] didn't end the way I wanted, but it
[01:33:50] ended the way it was supposed to. And I
[01:33:52] got to do so much more than I ever felt
[01:33:55] like I even deserved. So, what a
[01:33:58] blessing. How many people get to do what
[01:34:00] they set out to do as a little kid?
[01:34:02] >> You have quite a life.
[01:34:04] >> I know.
[01:34:04] >> And it and it went the way it was
[01:34:05] supposed to. It was destined to be the
[01:34:08] way that it was. You know, hearing you
[01:34:10] talk about these people, I I I told you
[01:34:12] when I went on your show that Charlotte
[01:34:13] Kirk kind of lifted me up. It's just
[01:34:15] interesting to hear a sports cer's view
[01:34:16] is just the kindness of these men who
[01:34:19] gave something gave back gave gave to
[01:34:22] you. they they um were manning up and
[01:34:25] giving you the interview and just shows
[01:34:28] you the importance in life of just
[01:34:29] sometimes just remember to be kind. Just
[01:34:31] remember to lift people up, you know.
[01:34:33] >> Literally, I'd say 98% of the athletes I
[01:34:35] dealt with were incredible even in weird
[01:34:37] situations in locker rooms and it's
[01:34:39] after a game and I'm in their area, but
[01:34:41] I'm part of the media so I'm allowed in,
[01:34:43] but it's uncomfortable and people are
[01:34:44] getting dressed and showers and I'm
[01:34:45] trying to be professional and I'm a
[01:34:47] mother and I'm I I when five years I
[01:34:50] covered the Ravens three, those five
[01:34:51] seasons I was pregnant. So I like I'm on
[01:34:53] the road on airplanes like nursing,
[01:34:56] pumping at halftime a football game so I
[01:34:59] could feed my kid but still do the
[01:35:00] drink. Like they were so kind to me.
[01:35:02] They took care of me. They had my back
[01:35:04] cuz they saw that I was prepared and
[01:35:07] professional and respectful of that.
[01:35:09] >> Seems like they respected you.
[01:35:10] >> They did. And I I was always so grateful
[01:35:13] for that respect because you do have to
[01:35:15] earn it as the media more so now because
[01:35:18] media screwed it up even in sports. But
[01:35:21] I knew and as a woman in the '9s like I
[01:35:25] had to be better than the guys. I that
[01:35:27] no one told me that. I felt that. Um and
[01:35:30] so I feel so grateful that they gave me
[01:35:32] a chance. You know, they pushed me.
[01:35:35] Certain coaches made it really tough.
[01:35:37] Some of the players, some of my
[01:35:38] co-workers actually were the worst. Um
[01:35:41] cuz a lot of them didn't think women
[01:35:42] belong there. But after a while when
[01:35:45] they see that, you know, at first, I
[01:35:47] mean, I was told, "Oh, we know why
[01:35:48] you're here." One of my co-workers, it
[01:35:50] got back to me. He's like, "Well, she's
[01:35:52] a woman. She's a woman of color. Double
[01:35:54] whammy. No wonder she's here. Like, DEI,
[01:35:57] I guess before DEI was a thing." Um, and
[01:36:00] and I then for a while I believed it. I
[01:36:02] was like, "Oh my gosh, what if I'm just
[01:36:03] a favor? What if someone's just doing
[01:36:05] someone a favor or the HR quotas
[01:36:07] fulfilled because I checked two boxes?"
[01:36:09] And then I realized like at some point
[01:36:12] they're not doing you favors. If you
[01:36:13] suck, you're going to make them look
[01:36:15] bad, so you're not going to get the job.
[01:36:17] And I was like, wait, maybe I am better
[01:36:20] than [snorts] they say I am.
[01:36:22] >> And then,
[01:36:24] you know, it the the dream the dream
[01:36:27] came true. I am so blessed.
[01:36:29] >> What is the thing you miss most of all
[01:36:31] the the the the time on the field with
[01:36:33] the players, the interviews, the the
[01:36:36] NFL? What is the Is there something
[01:36:37] about Man, I miss that.
[01:36:40] >> I miss the pressure.
[01:36:42] >> The pressure.
[01:36:43] >> Mhm. the postgame interviews like what
[01:36:46] specific was the most pressure
[01:36:48] >> postgame? Um, two hours of live sports
[01:36:51] center with breaking news.
[01:36:53] >> You missed the adrenaline.
[01:36:54] >> I missed the adrenaline. I missed the
[01:36:55] pressure of ready or not. Commercial
[01:36:58] break five, four, three, and there's
[01:37:03] there's nothing in the teleprompter like
[01:37:05] it's all on you with breaking news.
[01:37:07] >> Sometimes you perform better that way.
[01:37:09] >> You do if you think about it too much.
[01:37:10] Yeah. But I miss when I went to ESPN, I
[01:37:12] wasn't in locker rooms as much because I
[01:37:14] wasn't reporting. I was anchoring and
[01:37:16] hosting. And I miss getting to know the
[01:37:20] guys for who they are as human beings,
[01:37:22] not statistics
[01:37:23] >> on the on the play on the field, so to
[01:37:25] speak.
[01:37:26] >> Yeah. Not stats cuz their stats are
[01:37:27] incredible, but like you know me now, I
[01:37:30] will I want to know your why. I want to
[01:37:31] know how you
[01:37:33] >> had this dream of,
[01:37:35] >> you know, being a nose tackle in the
[01:37:37] National Football League, you know, and
[01:37:39] I miss
[01:37:42] that those relationships cuz they were
[01:37:44] friendships and
[01:37:47] the the challenge of earning their
[01:37:48] trust. Like I I loved that challenge and
[01:37:52] to prove to them and then I would find
[01:37:54] out news and potentially breaking news.
[01:37:56] >> Journalist does, right? Sources
[01:37:59] >> sources. But like if you don't handle
[01:38:02] those sources the right way, it only
[01:38:04] takes once for you to lose their trust.
[01:38:06] And not only will they never talk to you
[01:38:08] again, they'll make sure everybody else
[01:38:10] in the locker room will not talk to you
[01:38:12] and coaches and friends on other teams.
[01:38:14] Like you're done. um which is why people
[01:38:18] go in in other ways and let's let's get
[01:38:19] clicks over here and um so I miss being
[01:38:23] able to know them on a personal level
[01:38:26] cuz I don't at the end of the day I
[01:38:28] >> I care about your stats but that's not
[01:38:31] who you are as a person. They don't want
[01:38:33] those guys get tired of being known just
[01:38:35] for
[01:38:35] >> What was the stats?
[01:38:37] >> I'm not in as much into sports these
[01:38:39] days but what was the guy from the
[01:38:40] Seahawks? He was like I'm the best
[01:38:41] cornerback in the game. He's like hold
[01:38:43] this whole
[01:38:43] >> Richard Sherman.
[01:38:44] >> Sherman. Yeah. Did do you ever
[01:38:46] >> Well, he was ners too.
[01:38:47] >> Niners cuz some of these guys are like,
[01:38:49] you know, it's like Muhammad Ali.
[01:38:50] They're like, I'm the best. Like is it
[01:38:52] you have to pump yourself up is
[01:38:53] >> remember Dell Rivas from the Jets? Like
[01:38:55] Revas Island. Like he was considered
[01:38:56] that he was just quiet and humble and
[01:38:58] then Sherman was not. And Sherman's
[01:38:59] brilliant. He does Amazon now, Amazon
[01:39:02] football, and he um went to Stanford.
[01:39:04] Like he's a really smart dude. Um but he
[01:39:08] was so so cocky. But in the trash
[01:39:11] talking um yeah, I mean that's part of
[01:39:14] it. right? Like whatever it takes to get
[01:39:17] yourself ready to perform, whether that
[01:39:19] means as a broadcaster
[01:39:21] >> or as a starting quarterback. Like Tom
[01:39:23] Brady is an ass according to many was an
[01:39:26] ass leading up to, you know, during his
[01:39:28] football times. Pton Manning was
[01:39:32] great and difficult
[01:39:35] because his bar like if this is the bar
[01:39:37] to win in the NFL, his bar was here
[01:39:40] >> and he made sure every single person in
[01:39:42] that locker room was giving that much
[01:39:44] effort or you can leave. Like he had
[01:39:46] that kind of influence.
[01:39:47] >> That's be speaking personally. I'm not a
[01:39:49] sports player but I am a a leader. It's
[01:39:51] the hardest part about being a leader.
[01:39:53] And and my favorite is from the Michael
[01:39:54] Jordan, the Netflix, what was it called?
[01:39:56] The last game. The the
[01:39:57] >> the last dance.
[01:39:58] >> The Last Dance. Have you seen that one?
[01:40:00] >> Yeah.
[01:40:00] >> The the quote by Jordan, if we can pull
[01:40:02] it up, but he said um winning has a
[01:40:05] price and leadership has a price. That
[01:40:07] is I I'm telling you,
[01:40:10] it's not the enemy. It's not fighting
[01:40:12] the corruption. It's getting the people
[01:40:13] around you and pulling them. And guys,
[01:40:16] we're here. We got to be up here. That
[01:40:18] is the my personal experience. The
[01:40:21] hardest part about being a leader, it's
[01:40:22] not that your people hate you, but the
[01:40:24] wrong people will resent it a little
[01:40:26] bit. And even the I forgot the sports
[01:40:28] broadcaster that Jordan always talked
[01:40:30] to. I forgot his name sitting here. He
[01:40:32] was in the last dance, but he he you
[01:40:34] know, they were talking about you Jordan
[01:40:35] was difficult and you really have to
[01:40:37] love.
[01:40:38] >> Was it Marv Albert or Bob Cost?
[01:40:41] >> I don't know. But can we just play this
[01:40:43] clip real? I just talking sports here
[01:40:46] with my friend. Even though you haven't
[01:40:48] been a fan in
[01:40:49] >> I haven't been into sport since 1999
[01:40:51] years.
[01:40:51] >> I want to show this clip to Sage Steel.
[01:40:53] Michael Jordan hit it.
[01:40:55] >> Winning has a price
[01:40:58] >> and leadership has a price.
[01:41:02] So I pulled people along when they
[01:41:03] didn't want to be pulled. [music]
[01:41:06] I challenged people when they didn't
[01:41:07] want to be challenged.
[01:41:10] Once you join the team, you live at a
[01:41:12] certain standard that I played the game.
[01:41:14] And I wasn't going to take any less.
[01:41:17] Now that means I had to go in there and
[01:41:19] get in your ass a little bit and I did
[01:41:21] that.
[01:41:22] >> You asked all my teammates.
[01:41:23] >> One thing about Michael
[01:41:25] >> Yeah, that was to me that was the most
[01:41:27] that hit me hard.
[01:41:28] >> Love
[01:41:29] >> and I covered the Indiana Pacers during
[01:41:32] his heyday. And so it was brutal because
[01:41:35] it's all about timing in sports, right?
[01:41:38] And so the Pacers were great. Reggie
[01:41:40] Miller was great, but they were in the
[01:41:41] East with Michael Jordan's Bulls and
[01:41:44] they could never get past him. And
[01:41:47] therefore, Reggie never got that ring.
[01:41:49] It's all about timing. Buffalo Bills,
[01:41:50] right?
[01:41:51] >> But if you remember the last episode in
[01:41:55] that series and he he was emotional and
[01:41:57] he cried because
[01:42:00] >> on Netflix he cried in in the interview.
[01:42:02] >> That was Disney Hulu. I wasn't that that
[01:42:05] was an ABC. What was it? It was Netflix,
[01:42:07] but I think Disney, ESPN produced it,
[01:42:10] The Last Dance. Um, and
[01:42:13] they were talking to him about how he
[01:42:16] was so disliked and people thought he
[01:42:18] was so difficult and they didn't like
[01:42:21] him, they hated him, and that it
[01:42:23] affected him.
[01:42:26] >> And he was trying to explain it in his
[01:42:28] Michael way.
[01:42:29] >> You mean modern day? He was talking
[01:42:30] about it in 2019.
[01:42:32] >> Yeah. Yeah. He was asked about and this
[01:42:33] is this came out during May of co 2020
[01:42:36] >> the last dance and so yeah he was it hit
[01:42:39] him and so the you saw the human element
[01:42:41] of him which was very rare
[01:42:43] >> because he was ice and
[01:42:45] >> I can tell you that it hit me I'm not a
[01:42:47] a sports player but I can tell you as a
[01:42:49] leader that is the hardest thing about
[01:42:50] leadership when you're doing great
[01:42:52] things. Yes,
[01:42:53] >> because the people beneath you are
[01:42:54] always say, "Oh, you can't do that.
[01:42:56] That's too much. I can't work that hard.
[01:42:58] That's impossible." And you're pulling
[01:43:00] people, hey guys, we are going to kill
[01:43:02] the bear. It's just so hard.
[01:43:04] >> But it's like if you step it up, like we
[01:43:08] don't know our potential sometimes
[01:43:09] unless we have the right leader around
[01:43:11] us. And then we're going to win this
[01:43:13] together. Like those guys who hated him
[01:43:16] back then
[01:43:17] >> absolutely love him right now. Right. I
[01:43:18] mean he and Steve Kerr, they got in
[01:43:20] fights, right? And look at Steve. I mean
[01:43:21] there yes there's I'm sure that that
[01:43:24] there's still some animosity with
[01:43:26] certain situations whatever I don't know
[01:43:27] Pip and Jordan now but look what he did
[01:43:31] they wouldn't have any of those maybe I
[01:43:34] don't know one of the six rings had it
[01:43:36] not been for him leading the way um I
[01:43:39] got to host one of his charity gallas
[01:43:42] when he was still with the Charlotte
[01:43:44] Hornets one of the um owners and I
[01:43:48] remember being so nervous
[01:43:51] It's what I do. I MC and I host and I do
[01:43:53] that stuff. And I'm like, Michael Jordan
[01:43:56] is sitting right there.
[01:43:57] >> Yeah. You don't strike me as someone
[01:43:58] who's going to get nervous talking about
[01:44:00] players.
[01:44:00] >> I get it. It It was about It was It was
[01:44:02] >> the the legend.
[01:44:04] >> The legend. And it was his baby.
[01:44:07] >> And I was like, I need to crush this.
[01:44:09] >> Oh, I see. You were the host of the
[01:44:10] charity, right?
[01:44:11] >> No matter what he does, golfing,
[01:44:13] gambling, right? Like he's going to be
[01:44:15] the best of the best. And so I was like,
[01:44:18] they've trusted me with this event. It's
[01:44:20] Michael freaking Jordan. Like I need to
[01:44:21] crush this. So that was one of my more
[01:44:23] not
[01:44:24] >> I'm 41 years old and generation Z. I
[01:44:26] don't know if they'll ever fully
[01:44:28] appreciate just how great he was. I
[01:44:30] remember again I'm not a huge basketball
[01:44:32] guy but I remember it was like 1997 and
[01:44:35] I was watching them and I remember like
[01:44:38] my art teacher and I were in class and
[01:44:41] we were just talking to each other like
[01:44:43] I was a student but there would never be
[01:44:45] anything like this for our entire life.
[01:44:48] He was like it was just like watching
[01:44:49] someone ballet like flying. It's so
[01:44:52] beautiful to watch. And [clears throat]
[01:44:54] that's why kids today and I always I get
[01:44:56] asked this question all the time like
[01:44:58] Michael or LeBron. Michael LeBron. I'm
[01:45:00] like, "Shut up.
[01:45:01] >> You don't even understand. You don't
[01:45:02] even understand." I'm glad to hear you
[01:45:04] say that.
[01:45:04] >> No. Like there's no And they're
[01:45:06] prisoners of the moment. And we can be
[01:45:08] we can all be prisoners of the moment
[01:45:09] >> because they didn't watch it. They
[01:45:10] weren't.
[01:45:10] >> They didn't watch it live. And now look
[01:45:13] again, social media, internet, like
[01:45:16] LeBron, the way LeBron exists is
[01:45:19] completely different than Michael
[01:45:20] existed because they didn't have any of
[01:45:21] that stuff, which is probably good in
[01:45:23] many ways that there wasn't the internet
[01:45:25] and cell phones everywhere. You know,
[01:45:27] >> you get food poisoning or something in
[01:45:28] one game and then he performed.
[01:45:30] >> It was it was the flu game. That's I
[01:45:32] mean that's just
[01:45:33] >> it was the flu game which is probably
[01:45:35] never gonna also never going to be fully
[01:45:38] appreciated but when he was literally
[01:45:40] vomiting had nothing left. [sighs]
[01:45:43] >> I I just I wanted to share that with you
[01:45:46] because I I I I feel as a leader that
[01:45:50] that statement that he made right there
[01:45:51] that that winning has a price. The price
[01:45:56] winning my price is my life. winning has
[01:45:57] a price and leadership is a leadership
[01:45:59] is a liability. But to hear that man say
[01:46:02] it and to hear and you you're telling me
[01:46:04] that many of the people, you know, were
[01:46:06] angry at him for for for having him pull
[01:46:08] him pull him along
[01:46:10] >> for not for for being that guy
[01:46:13] >> that was like, "Oh, no."
[01:46:15] >> Oron or It is lonely. I think it's it's
[01:46:20] I'm so glad you said that. Um,
[01:46:23] >> it deeply affected me when I watched
[01:46:25] that that deep lonely at the top. It's
[01:46:28] lonely being the leader at times and not
[01:46:30] we know not everybody can handle it and
[01:46:33] I mean being the leader not everybody
[01:46:35] can handle that. I also have known so
[01:46:38] many people who have the title but don't
[01:46:41] actually know how to lead and that's a
[01:46:44] whole different thing.
[01:46:45] >> Respect has to be earned.
[01:46:46] >> Do you actually know how to lead?
[01:46:48] Leading isn't getting in people's faces
[01:46:50] all the time. Leading can be sitting
[01:46:52] down with your employee and talking it
[01:46:56] through instead of getting in their face
[01:46:57] and trying to make them feel smaller and
[01:46:59] every in front of everybody else to
[01:47:00] prove that you're the leader, right?
[01:47:02] >> Like really each per that's what the
[01:47:04] hard thing is. Each person was going to
[01:47:06] receive it differently. Now the bar
[01:47:08] needs to be the same. The standard needs
[01:47:09] to be the same. The rules need to be the
[01:47:11] same which is why I sued Disney, right?
[01:47:13] But but at the end of the day like how
[01:47:16] do you as the leader reach each person?
[01:47:18] And that's why I think it's so hard. We
[01:47:20] can all have the title, but do we
[01:47:22] actually know how to lead?
[01:47:24] >> And you can't ask your people to do
[01:47:26] anything that you're not willing to do.
[01:47:28] That's why I wore on a ridiculous wig
[01:47:30] and went undercover so that they can go,
[01:47:32] I can't do it. I'm too recognized in my
[01:47:34] town. Okay. Well,
[01:47:35] >> and but you know what else? Full circle.
[01:47:39] You also have to lead in delegating.
[01:47:44] >> True.
[01:47:45] >> And taking care of yourself.
[01:47:47] >> True.
[01:47:48] >> Away from work. and the personal side
[01:47:50] and what sacrifices like we talked about
[01:47:52] this and I'm gonna bother you.
[01:47:54] >> Is going to tell me to have children.
[01:47:55] >> Go have some babies tonight.
[01:47:57] >> Have some tonight. [laughter]
[01:48:01] [gasps]
[01:48:01] >> I'm just saying like you have to make
[01:48:03] some referrals to some good women.
[01:48:06] >> Referrals to good women.
[01:48:07] >> The questions I shall ask you are number
[01:48:09] one, are you willing to go to prison
[01:48:11] with me? Not visit me in the prison to
[01:48:13] be that does not mean you broke the law.
[01:48:15] And number two, my next question is do
[01:48:17] you have a good relationship with your
[01:48:18] father? You had a great relationship
[01:48:19] with your father. He was
[01:48:20] >> Can you wait to ask the prison question
[01:48:22] until your second date? Maybe.
[01:48:24] >> I'll start with the first
[01:48:25] >> and then people say, "Oh, people who've
[01:48:27] had a bad relationship with their father
[01:48:28] will think this is unfair."
[01:48:30] >> But I'm a journalist. Asked questions. I
[01:48:32] mean, Sage, you had you had a good you
[01:48:34] had a good father. It seems like you you
[01:48:36] good man. Still was a good man.
[01:48:37] >> Yeah. I had the best father. But you
[01:48:39] know what else? You know what my first
[01:48:41] question was?
[01:48:42] >> What's that?
[01:48:42] >> When my husband I've been married for
[01:48:45] almost two months. We're newlyweds.
[01:48:48] 10 days in, his question to me was,
[01:48:52] "What do you want in a relationship?"
[01:48:54] And he's like, "You don't have to ask.
[01:48:55] You don't have to answer now. Just think
[01:48:57] about it." And I was like, "Oh, no, no,
[01:48:58] no. I know exactly. Have a seat." It was
[01:49:00] on the phone. We lived in live in
[01:49:02] different states lived. And for the
[01:49:05] first time in my life, I was able to
[01:49:08] honestly say that it has to start with
[01:49:12] faith.
[01:49:12] >> Faith
[01:49:13] >> and being on the same faith journey. I
[01:49:15] know that I need help with it. and I've
[01:49:17] been doing it alone and I haven't been
[01:49:18] doing a good job. And so for me, if you
[01:49:22] don't have that,
[01:49:25] like I knew at that moment that I might
[01:49:26] run him off if he if he didn't have
[01:49:28] faith or at least have an interest in
[01:49:29] getting to know God more. And I was
[01:49:32] scared cuz it's like, well, I think he's
[01:49:33] amazing, but what if he doesn't want
[01:49:35] that too? Then I'm going to have to walk
[01:49:36] away. And it ends up it was his number
[01:49:39] one as well. And then the rest of the
[01:49:41] stuff is actually kind of easy
[01:49:42] >> as long as you have that down.
[01:49:44] >> I think so. I mean obviously there's
[01:49:46] certain things but like motivation
[01:49:49] >> it's a necessary but insufficient
[01:49:50] condition to to find someone that share
[01:49:52] those same values on faith
[01:49:54] >> for some for others it doesn't matter
[01:49:56] >> I think it's pretty important if you
[01:49:59] believe in God and have strong faith you
[01:50:00] you want your partner to to have that I
[01:50:02] believe that
[01:50:03] >> and but it's one thing to have the faith
[01:50:04] that it's another thing to hold each
[01:50:06] other accountable and to try to live it
[01:50:08] and sometimes we have good days and bad
[01:50:09] days as far as you know okay we try to
[01:50:12] get up every day and read um this
[01:50:15] they're like daily readings and
[01:50:16] scripture based and whether we're in the
[01:50:19] same state or not um I'd say six days a
[01:50:22] week we're pretty good maybe five and a
[01:50:23] half but we help each other with it and
[01:50:28] it's changing everything like it's so
[01:50:31] cool and guess what my kids are watching
[01:50:33] his kids are watching we are so
[01:50:35] imperfect but we're trying to lead in
[01:50:38] that way for them but for us like we
[01:50:39] need it too and so I I I was just I
[01:50:43] remember being nervous to tell him that,
[01:50:46] but taking a shot knowing that no matter
[01:50:48] where I go next with a relationship,
[01:50:50] because it had been a long time since
[01:50:51] I'd had one.
[01:50:53] >> Um, I can't go any further without
[01:50:56] without that. So, it's it's really it's
[01:50:59] really special. But before I
[01:51:03] a lot of people, men, women, we settle.
[01:51:06] >> We do.
[01:51:08] We do. We can't.
[01:51:09] >> Marriage is the leading cause of
[01:51:10] divorce,
[01:51:12] >> unfortunately. Shut up.
[01:51:14] >> And and it's it's it's I mean as a man I
[01:51:16] mean by the way your your your husband
[01:51:18] is here in in he's watching through the
[01:51:20] glass here with the producers.
[01:51:22] >> Isn't he?
[01:51:22] >> And two two months you've been married
[01:51:24] two months now almost. Congratulations.
[01:51:26] >> Make it. Yeah.
[01:51:27] >> Um yeah I mean Faith is it's a whole
[01:51:30] other Maybe we'll have you back on just
[01:51:32] to talk about that one because that's an
[01:51:33] hourong conversation.
[01:51:34] >> Well and it's been scary. I'll just say
[01:51:36] that. We can take you to the next one
[01:51:37] then. It has been really scary. Um,
[01:51:39] >> what's the most scary thing?
[01:51:40] >> Because I I I was uncomfortable talking
[01:51:42] about it.
[01:51:44] >> Uncomfortable talking about
[01:51:45] >> Catholics. Catholics don't talk about it
[01:51:47] out loud. We We only do it in church and
[01:51:49] we don't pray out loud and [gasps]
[01:51:51] >> and sometimes Catholics don't they don't
[01:51:52] read the Bible at all.
[01:51:54] >> Quite often, more times than not,
[01:51:56] >> but you're reading the Bible.
[01:51:58] >> I am reading the day the daily readings
[01:52:00] that are based on scriptures from the
[01:52:02] Bible. Alli Beth Stucky just gave me,
[01:52:06] she was on my show recently. She's
[01:52:07] incredible. just gave me a working Bible
[01:52:10] when I was with her two weeks ago
[01:52:12] because to me it's been overwhelming to
[01:52:14] try to read the Bible and sometimes Old
[01:52:15] Testament stuff like it I don't
[01:52:17] understand it. I think it's hard to read
[01:52:20] >> interpret it.
[01:52:20] >> And so then I ran away from it and then
[01:52:22] I wasn't encouraged in the Catholic
[01:52:24] faith
[01:52:25] >> and so and so
[01:52:28] >> I can go to church on Sundays and do all
[01:52:30] the things that I actually really like
[01:52:32] the traditions of the Catholic Church.
[01:52:33] You can go anywhere in the world, walk
[01:52:35] into any Catholic church in any country
[01:52:37] and know what to do and recognize the
[01:52:40] smell of that incense and know the hymns
[01:52:42] and know when to kneel and stand. And
[01:52:44] like that feels good to me. I love that
[01:52:46] >> and now I know I need more.
[01:52:48] >> So, um I'm trying to find the courage to
[01:52:50] open that Bible she gave me cuz I know
[01:52:52] it's going to take a lot. Um, but I have
[01:52:56] someone I can do that with and and my
[01:52:58] oldest daughter who is really really
[01:53:02] into it and pushing me as well.
[01:53:06] >> Sounds like you've got some good people
[01:53:08] right around you in your family
[01:53:10] >> that are helping you. Courage courage to
[01:53:13] open the Bible. That's that's also quite
[01:53:16] more profound. I mean, I opened the
[01:53:18] Bible for the first time in years when
[01:53:20] Charlie died. Started reading John. That
[01:53:23] was on upon recommendation from a pastor
[01:53:25] in California, Jack Hibbs. Uh, so it
[01:53:29] sounds like you've got some really good
[01:53:31] people in your life close to you, which
[01:53:33] is what life's all about. So,
[01:53:35] >> James, it's the biggest blessing. And
[01:53:38] none of it, none of the people that are
[01:53:39] really prominent in my life except
[01:53:41] couple close friends and family would be
[01:53:43] in my life if I stayed quiet.
[01:53:46] >> Well, there you have it.
[01:53:48] >> None of them.
[01:53:49] >> Wow.
[01:53:49] >> And look at the price. So, there it was
[01:53:51] very costly. It cost you
[01:53:52] >> and I gained so much more. I get
[01:53:57] emotional thinking about what if what if
[01:54:00] I had stayed silent? What if I had
[01:54:02] listened to what they wanted me to do? I
[01:54:04] would not be here today. I would not
[01:54:06] have met my husband. I would not have
[01:54:08] the freedom. I none of my life today
[01:54:10] would exist if I had stayed silent.
[01:54:12] >> You found you found you found people
[01:54:13] with shared values because you chose to
[01:54:16] live by your values. If you did not
[01:54:18] choose to live by your values, you
[01:54:19] perhaps would not have found those
[01:54:21] people,
[01:54:22] >> right?
[01:54:22] >> Can I steal that?
[01:54:24] >> Well,
[01:54:24] >> that was Did you just Did you Did you
[01:54:27] like make that up before?
[01:54:28] >> I just rift. I've never said it before.
[01:54:30] We'll cut it. We'll put it online.
[01:54:31] >> So, I have to credit you every time I
[01:54:32] use it.
[01:54:33] >> No, you don't have to credit.
[01:54:35] We We You Yeah, you you Yeah, you
[01:54:37] [clears throat] you found
[01:54:38] >> Don't come after me with with like
[01:54:39] hidden cameras saying [laughter] I gave
[01:54:40] you
[01:54:41] >> This is This is an overt camera. I've
[01:54:44] I've You're doing both things. But that
[01:54:46] that's really beautiful and um it's nice
[01:54:50] to get to know you and and you know to
[01:54:52] become friendly with you and and to know
[01:54:53] your story
[01:54:54] >> and to talk to you about sports and
[01:54:57] [laughter] and talk
[01:54:58] >> as much as I've pained you.
[01:55:00] >> Man, I want to tell you I I really was
[01:55:02] obsessed with the Bills as my my father
[01:55:05] still is.
[01:55:05] >> Listen, this is a good time to become
[01:55:07] obsessed again. Their quarterback is a
[01:55:08] phenomenal human being.
[01:55:10] >> Is he?
[01:55:11] >> Oh my gosh, he's probably my favorite
[01:55:12] person in the NFL right now.
[01:55:14] >> A statement. He's my favorite person in
[01:55:15] the NFL right now. He's a good soul.
[01:55:18] Like really good soul who happens to be
[01:55:19] an awesome athlete. And I know they've
[01:55:21] fallen short in recent years, but this
[01:55:24] is the time to jump back on the
[01:55:26] bandwagon. Okay.
[01:55:27] >> All right. [laughter]
[01:55:29] I may I may do that. I
[01:55:32] >> century has gone by.
[01:55:33] >> I'm going to send him I'm going to send
[01:55:35] him this link and and share this with
[01:55:37] him. Maybe if he does respond.
[01:55:38] >> Do you know his name?
[01:55:40] >> I don't.
[01:55:40] >> Oh my god.
[01:55:42] >> You know what? I probably [laughter] do.
[01:55:43] I probably do, but I don't remember it.
[01:55:46] >> I'm so judging you right now.
[01:55:47] >> I'm bad with terrible leadership.
[01:55:49] >> I'm bad with names. I don't even follow
[01:55:52] the Bills.
[01:55:53] >> His name is Josh Allen.
[01:55:54] >> Right. I I knew that. [laughter] I just
[01:55:57] forgot it. My staff will tell you that
[01:55:59] we don't remember everyone's names. Yes.
[01:56:01] I'm I'm familiar with Josh Allen.
[01:56:02] >> Look. Yeah. And he just got married.
[01:56:05] >> 29 years old. That's still still fairly
[01:56:07] young.
[01:56:08] >> Look at that. He's a big boy. When I met
[01:56:10] him, the the last time I saw him was at
[01:56:12] the Masters and I was like, when you
[01:56:14] were in college, I don't think you were
[01:56:16] this big. Like, he is he's fast, too,
[01:56:18] for that height and weight.
[01:56:20] >> What um what do you admire about Josh
[01:56:22] Allen? Why is he such a great guy?
[01:56:24] >> He is a kind soul. Okay. I was at a I
[01:56:27] was at a Super Bowl or an SB somewhere
[01:56:29] and I was in a store and he was with his
[01:56:33] agent and I was just looking through the
[01:56:36] rack and he walked up to me and he goes,
[01:56:39] "Sage deal." He's like, "Oh my god, I've
[01:56:41] watched you since I was a kid." Which
[01:56:43] now I roll my eyes because everybody
[01:56:44] that is like 30 now watched me when they
[01:56:47] were in diapers and that's annoying.
[01:56:48] >> Mhm.
[01:56:49] >> But like and I knew who he was and I
[01:56:51] thought how did how the heck do you
[01:56:53] know? I would forget that people watched
[01:56:56] cuz I tried to tell myself that nobody
[01:56:58] watched so I wouldn't get nervous. I was
[01:56:59] like, "No one's watching except my mom,
[01:57:00] so it's fine if I screw up." Apparently
[01:57:03] others were. And he was just like big
[01:57:07] wide eye and he was like, "Oh my gosh,
[01:57:09] how are you? It's so nice to meet you."
[01:57:10] And I was like,
[01:57:12] >> "Me? Like, do you care?" So every time
[01:57:14] I've seen him, he's just like, "Hi, how
[01:57:17] are you?" And hugs and and now he's
[01:57:19] married and like he's so kind. He's such
[01:57:22] a good kid. And I believe he donated I
[01:57:26] don't know if it was true or not, but I
[01:57:28] believe he donated to Charlie Kirk to to
[01:57:31] Turning Point.
[01:57:31] >> Well, we'll send we'll send Allan this
[01:57:34] podcast and say, "Hey, he may not
[01:57:37] respond, but
[01:57:37] >> you can be like, James, I'm James
[01:57:39] O'Keefe. I've been a fan of yours for
[01:57:40] years."
[01:57:42] >> I I it's pretty pretty surreal that
[01:57:44] we're sitting here. And in the mid 90s,
[01:57:46] I remember when I was in like sixth
[01:57:47] grade, I used to watch Sports Center. I
[01:57:49] was with uh who was his name? the uh
[01:57:51] eventually he became like a weird
[01:57:54] psychotic leftist left
[01:57:56] >> the worst butman was like 39 at the time
[01:58:00] and who was the other guy on the with
[01:58:01] >> Dan Patrick those were the days
[01:58:03] >> they were they were the best team ever
[01:58:05] >> that was a cool team
[01:58:06] >> psycho Dan has done his own thing and
[01:58:08] he's incredible
[01:58:08] >> was it was overman psycho back then
[01:58:10] though was like
[01:58:11] >> not like he is now and now he's he's
[01:58:12] literally a like he's unstable
[01:58:15] >> I think they did in the morning it was
[01:58:17] like 6 to 7 7 to 8 and 8 to 9 it was the
[01:58:19] same rerun of Hourong show.
[01:58:21] >> It was a rerun of the 11 p.m.
[01:58:22] >> 11 p.m. that they reran in the morning.
[01:58:24] And And who is the guy? I'm so bad with
[01:58:26] names. I'm sorry. Burman.
[01:58:28] >> Chris Burman. He's still there.
[01:58:30] >> And he's a He seemed like a Bills fan.
[01:58:32] >> He is a Bills fan.
[01:58:33] >> No one circles the wagons like the
[01:58:35] Buffalo Bills.
[01:58:35] >> Look at you.
[01:58:36] >> See, I remember.
[01:58:37] >> Look at you. It's all coming back.
[01:58:39] [laughter] This is like This is like
[01:58:40] pre- project Veritas.
[01:58:42] >> So he So he left. Boomer left. Chris
[01:58:44] Burman. He left and then they brought
[01:58:46] him back like six or seven years ago and
[01:58:48] he still does Monday night stuff. No one
[01:58:50] served.
[01:58:50] >> And I think he still does the Major
[01:58:51] League Baseball All-Star game. Back,
[01:58:53] back, back, back, back.
[01:58:54] >> God, that was that was those Jets fans.
[01:58:58] I would wear a Jim Kelly jersey to a
[01:59:01] football game in like 1993.
[01:59:03] >> To a Jets game?
[01:59:04] >> To a Jets game.
[01:59:05] >> Well, so that's your that's your fault?
[01:59:07] >> It was People almost physically
[01:59:09] assaulted me.
[01:59:10] >> Your father knowingly let you do that?
[01:59:13] >> Yes. The O'Keefes are a little naive. We
[01:59:16] believe the best in human nature, but
[01:59:19] I've never physically gotten
[01:59:20] >> Not anymore. You don't?
[01:59:21] >> I've never gotten into a fight in my
[01:59:22] like fist fight in my life. But these
[01:59:24] Jets fans were were were I mean just
[01:59:27] horrible. And and I remember in the
[01:59:29] early mid '90s it was like they were
[01:59:31] like you could hardly spot the Bills
[01:59:33] jerseys and the Jets weren't very good.
[01:59:35] >> No,
[01:59:36] >> they were pretty pathetic.
[01:59:38] >> But um
[01:59:38] >> that was like the daysish.
[01:59:41] >> That was like Boomer Asias. Boomerous
[01:59:43] sciences
[01:59:44] >> in 1993 and '94 and and then and then
[01:59:48] Doug Fluty in '98. I was 14.
[01:59:51] >> Yeah.
[01:59:51] >> And they would say like, you know, f you
[01:59:53] fluty flakes. Fluty sucks. [laughter]
[01:59:57] Like what? I mean anyway,
[02:00:00] >> it's New York and it's Jets fans and
[02:00:01] they're just very bitter because
[02:00:03] >> pre- internet, pre Twitter, pre YouTube.
[02:00:05] This is a different world
[02:00:06] >> back in the good old days.
[02:00:07] >> No phones. I mean, anyways, that you
[02:00:10] brought me you brought I'm having some
[02:00:11] some nostalgia right now.
[02:00:13] >> I love it. Well, we we'll continue the
[02:00:14] sports trivia when the cameras are off.
[02:00:16] >> Any um anything else I didn't cover that
[02:00:18] you want to talk talk about before we
[02:00:19] wrap up?
[02:00:20] >> It did. It was so nice. It kind of went
[02:00:22] all over.
[02:00:22] >> What was your favorite part of the
[02:00:24] conversation?
[02:00:27] >> Well, I think I need you to repeat it
[02:00:29] one more time.
[02:00:31] >> Oh, the quote
[02:00:32] >> and the standards cuz I [sighs]
[02:00:35] >> You don't even remember. Shoot.
[02:00:37] I think it was something to the effect
[02:00:38] of
[02:00:40] you I'm going to say in a different way,
[02:00:43] but you met people
[02:00:46] >> that share your values because you chose
[02:00:49] to live by your values. We we'll get
[02:00:51] that quote, but
[02:00:52] >> yes,
[02:00:52] >> you that is a true statement and I think
[02:00:55] it's very inspiring to the people who
[02:00:56] are watching who are on the edge of
[02:00:58] their seats. They might be telling the
[02:01:00] truth and they might say, "Well, I'm I I
[02:01:02] I can't afford to lose the thing." But
[02:01:05] what what I'm inspired by what you've
[02:01:07] been through is and I'm learning this
[02:01:09] live is that you gained
[02:01:12] >> so much
[02:01:13] >> you gained because people view this
[02:01:15] experience as a liability but in fact
[02:01:17] you gained so much and what what what
[02:01:19] more can one possibly gain than a
[02:01:21] husband who loves you shares your values
[02:01:23] and children who admire you and many
[02:01:26] years from now when you're in your
[02:01:27] deathbed you're going to think about
[02:01:29] life and people think about their
[02:01:31] mortgage and their purses and their
[02:01:32] Audi's and look at what you gained.
[02:01:35] my for those two examples, husband,
[02:01:40] kids. Um, I always wanted to just make
[02:01:43] my parents proud.
[02:01:46] I was stressing them out for a lot of
[02:01:47] years, like they were
[02:01:50] absorbing all that was happening. Um,
[02:01:54] and and then it was happening, you know,
[02:01:56] personally, too. Like it was all at the
[02:01:57] same time. And my dad through tears in
[02:02:02] the last couple of years has said um how
[02:02:06] proud he is. I mean my mother of course
[02:02:08] too, but my dad through tears he's like
[02:02:11] you you're so much more brave than I
[02:02:13] ever was. I don't believe that. Um I
[02:02:17] don't agree with that. He had very
[02:02:19] different experiences at a very
[02:02:21] different time that were much harder
[02:02:22] than mine. Um, but for them to be proud
[02:02:26] of me
[02:02:28] despite all of my long list of
[02:02:30] imperfections and [gasps]
[02:02:32] trauma and tears and um yeah, that's
[02:02:37] >> that was a lot.
[02:02:38] >> That was a lot. And
[02:02:41] um you know, they were I think one of my
[02:02:44] biggest fears I I need this to be wine
[02:02:46] and it's not, but no, it's I'm
[02:02:48] [laughter] kidding.
[02:02:49] One of my biggest fears was that um I
[02:02:52] wouldn't be able to
[02:02:56] that my parents wouldn't be around,
[02:02:57] wouldn't be alive long enough for them
[02:02:59] to see me find love again. And so the
[02:03:04] fact that they were there and got to
[02:03:06] witness it because they were like um not
[02:03:10] well with everything else that happened.
[02:03:13] And so for my parents to get to witness
[02:03:14] it, like that was my biggest fear that
[02:03:16] they wouldn't get to see it because they
[02:03:18] helped me through the other stuff. And
[02:03:20] so I feel like like this is I don't want
[02:03:22] to die now, but I feel like
[02:03:24] >> you're at peace.
[02:03:25] >> Yeah. I feel like okay, my parents know
[02:03:27] that I'm okay. They helped me get there.
[02:03:30] They literally saved me
[02:03:32] >> through all of this and they're proud
[02:03:35] and they're content and they know that
[02:03:37] he's
[02:03:38] I I finally have like a teammate, you
[02:03:41] know. So, um I don't know. I just feel
[02:03:44] so grateful. That's why I shudder at the
[02:03:46] thought of what would have happened if I
[02:03:47] had stayed quiet because, you know, so
[02:03:50] [snorts] I'm a lucky girl, old lady,
[02:03:52] whatever.
[02:03:53] >> That's a beautiful statement. And team,
[02:03:55] if you could put the signal number back
[02:03:56] on the screen if you have it, Andrew,
[02:03:59] the the screenshot of people who want to
[02:04:01] come forward and tell the truth. There
[02:04:04] it is. Uh 9144919395.
[02:04:09] That's 9144919395
[02:04:11] for those of you out there on the inside
[02:04:13] of Disney or Rathon or the Pentagon,
[02:04:17] Fizer,
[02:04:19] >> and you have a truth that you're living
[02:04:21] with. What a beautiful testimony from
[02:04:24] someone who worked for the most
[02:04:25] prestigious organization in media, in
[02:04:28] sports, and someone who gained. And I I
[02:04:32] can't think of a better way to end this
[02:04:34] show. What Thank you so much for being
[02:04:36] here. Thank you for having me and for
[02:04:37] allowing me because it's so much bigger
[02:04:39] than me. That's the blessing of it is
[02:04:41] that I just want others to not wait, not
[02:04:44] wait as long as I did.
[02:04:45] >> Thank you, Sage.
[02:04:46] >> Thank you for having me.
[02:04:48] >> Every story we tell here at O'Keefe
[02:04:51] Media Group, breaking the news, going
[02:04:53] places others won't, taking risks others
[02:04:55] won't is powered by your support and by
[02:04:58] our partners at American Independence
[02:05:00] Gold. All right, so we're here with Ryan
[02:05:03] Dera, senior vice president, American
[02:05:05] Independence Gold. Lots of people are
[02:05:08] talking about gold. Ryan, tell us the
[02:05:10] difference between investing in precious
[02:05:12] metals and regular stocks or mutual
[02:05:15] funds.
[02:05:16] >> Uh I mean the easiest answer I can give
[02:05:18] you to that is there's with gold,
[02:05:20] silver, precious metals in general,
[02:05:21] there's no counterparty risk. So when I
[02:05:24] say counterparty risk uh with a stock
[02:05:27] for example if we look at uh let's say
[02:05:29] Apple the entire board is one of your
[02:05:32] counterparties the CEO Tim Cook is one
[02:05:35] of your counterparties the staff that is
[02:05:38] responsible for developing products um
[02:05:42] marketing those are counterparties so
[02:05:44] you have risk in the success or failure
[02:05:48] of that individual counterparty with
[02:05:50] gold and silver there's no counterparty
[02:05:52] there's no CEO of gold. There's no CEO
[02:05:54] of silver. It's a tangible asset that
[02:05:57] you own. In the case of a bond, right,
[02:06:01] we'll use the US Treasury, right? The
[02:06:04] counterpart is the United States
[02:06:05] government. And uh right now there's a
[02:06:08] little bit of lack of faith that exists
[02:06:11] in the uh United States government andor
[02:06:13] its ability to make good on its debt.
[02:06:16] >> What types of investment portfolios
[02:06:18] would benefit from exposure to gold?
[02:06:20] >> I mean, any and all. My uh I think one
[02:06:22] of the most misleading things that uh
[02:06:24] people are told uh is that they have a
[02:06:28] well well- diversified portfolio of
[02:06:30] stocks, bonds, mutual funds, bond funds
[02:06:33] and the reality of that situation is
[02:06:35] they own one single asset class which is
[02:06:37] they own securities. So alike they might
[02:06:40] be diversified within a single asset
[02:06:42] class, they're not truly diversified.
[02:06:45] True diversification would be that you
[02:06:48] have a portfolio that exists of multiple
[02:06:51] asset classes that are noncorrelated.
[02:06:54] So somebody with a portfolio of stocks,
[02:06:57] bonds, mutual funds, and bond funds
[02:06:59] would need to have gold and silver
[02:07:02] outside of that portfolio in order to
[02:07:05] call it a true portfolio hedge.
[02:07:07] >> As of the time of this recording, what
[02:07:09] is the price of gold?
[02:07:10] >> 3,800 and change. to give you the exact
[02:07:13] uh number, I would I would have to, you
[02:07:15] know,
[02:07:15] >> is that an all-time high?
[02:07:16] >> It's absolutely. We've had 38 new
[02:07:19] all-time highs uh this year alone. Uh
[02:07:22] last year, I believe we hit the 74
[02:07:25] all-time high mark.
[02:07:26] >> And what is that like compared to say 10
[02:07:28] years ago, 20 years ago?
[02:07:30] >> To give a little history, gold, if we
[02:07:32] look at just from the beginning of this
[02:07:34] century, right? So that's the year 2000,
[02:07:36] the beginning of this century, it's 25
[02:07:37] years ago. Gold itself has actually
[02:07:40] outperformed the entire S&P 500
[02:07:44] three-fold. Had you purchased gold in
[02:07:46] the year 2000, you're up 1,500% today.
[02:07:50] If you invested in the S&P 500 index and
[02:07:53] you reinvested all the dividends, you're
[02:07:56] up about 500% in change, right? So gold
[02:08:00] just hands down been an outperformer
[02:08:04] relative to the stock market, stock
[02:08:07] market indexes.
[02:08:08] >> Is there a risk getting exposure to gold
[02:08:10] now after that huge increase?
[02:08:12] >> All investments carry certain level of
[02:08:14] risk. So I'll give you the disclosure
[02:08:16] there. [laughter]
[02:08:17] Um you know gold is what's called a tier
[02:08:20] one asset which is a central bank
[02:08:22] definition simply meaning that it is
[02:08:24] safe and it's liquid. Gold by definition
[02:08:27] of the central banks is a tier one
[02:08:28] asset. So that means it's a safe
[02:08:31] investment. It's literally one of the
[02:08:33] safest things that you can own in your
[02:08:35] portfolio. So once again, all
[02:08:38] investments [snorts] carry a certain
[02:08:39] level of risk, but gold is considered to
[02:08:42] be the safest thing that you can own.
[02:08:45] Most people look at the price of gold
[02:08:47] today in nominal terms, meaning they
[02:08:50] simply look at it based on the dollar
[02:08:53] price of gold. But if we were to look at
[02:08:55] gold valued in other things, i.e. if we
[02:08:58] valued gold against, again, I'll go back
[02:09:01] to the S&P, the value of the S&P priced
[02:09:04] in gold, gold is still dirt cheap. And
[02:09:06] the same holds true with the NASDAQ or
[02:09:08] the Dow. Uh if we look at the price of
[02:09:11] gold relative to all the currency in
[02:09:13] circulation,
[02:09:15] gold is still dirt cheap. So, do I think
[02:09:18] now is still a great time to buy gold?
[02:09:20] Hands down, yes. Right now, I'm offering
[02:09:24] my followers in the trenches this
[02:09:26] incredible one-time opportunity to
[02:09:27] credit your account up to $10,000 in
[02:09:30] free gold and silver on a qualifying
[02:09:33] purchase. That's right. This will help
[02:09:34] you get started protecting your wealth
[02:09:36] with real physical gold and silver while
[02:09:40] these historic price levels are still
[02:09:42] within reach. Go to okemediagold.com.
[02:09:45] That's O'Keefeagold.com
[02:09:48] or call 833324-465383324
[02:09:55] gold. Again, that's okefemedagold.com
[02:09:58] or 83324
[02:10:01] gold. Take action, get the facts, and
[02:10:03] protect your future because freedom
[02:10:05] isn't given, it's secured. [music]
[02:10:08] This is James O'Keefe. Don't just watch
[02:10:10] history, own a piece of it. What is your
[02:10:13] [music] price?
[02:10:15] Because if your price is not your life,
[02:10:21] then you [music] are for sale.
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