📄 Extracted Text (32,632 words)
[00:00:00] I'm looking dangerous [singing]
[00:00:01] now. Yeah, [music] they looking anxious
[00:00:03] now. Yeah, look at they faces now. Yeah,
[00:00:06] how did they make [music] it out? Yeah,
[00:00:08] I had to break it. I'm talking that
[00:00:10] family curse. Everyone said I wouldn't
[00:00:13] make it. Spoiler alert. Man, what are
[00:00:15] you so afraid [music] of? Isn't that
[00:00:17] what life is made of? When you think
[00:00:19] about all you gave up when you think
[00:00:21] about all the language and the [ __ ]
[00:00:24] that they sold [music] you. When the
[00:00:25] tear drops hit your ceiling, will you
[00:00:28] see a human being? Will you open your
[00:00:30] eyes aboard the [music] pain? Cuz why
[00:00:32] are you so afraid? Why are you so
[00:00:35] afraid? And why [music] are you so
[00:00:37] afraid? And why are you so afraid? Why
[00:00:41] are you so afraid? And what are you so
[00:00:43] afraid? [music]
[00:00:44] And what are you so afraid? And why are
[00:00:47] you so afraid?
[00:00:50] So what's holding you back? Fear. It's
[00:00:53] irrational. What are we actually afraid
[00:00:56] of? Especially Christians, you talk
[00:00:58] about eternal life and they're worried
[00:00:59] about losing their stuff and their
[00:01:01] money. I don't get that at all
[00:01:05] because you [music] don't take any of
[00:01:06] that stuff with you when you die. None
[00:01:09] of it.
[00:01:13] [music]
[00:01:19] >> [music]
[00:01:19] >> This morning when I woke, I couldn't
[00:01:22] stop hearing tear drops on my ceiling
[00:01:25] [music] falling from the eyes of the
[00:01:26] beautiful angel I had slaughtered. Hold
[00:01:29] me, ignoring what you told me only
[00:01:32] [music] for a moment. Everything is fine
[00:01:34] in the beautiful golden path unfolding
[00:01:37] anger [music] in response to my emotion.
[00:01:40] All the trauma left unopen. Throw it all
[00:01:43] away and fly inside. [music] Get high.
[00:01:45] Good times. I'm reeling from the
[00:01:46] raindrops on the ceiling from your
[00:01:49] heart. This is revealing. You want to
[00:01:51] get away. You're bored into my afraid
[00:01:54] of. Isn't [music] that what life is made
[00:01:56] of? When you think about all you gave
[00:01:59] up, when you think about all the glamour
[00:02:01] [music] and the money that they sold
[00:02:03] [singing] you when the raindrops hit
[00:02:04] your ceiling, [music] will you see a
[00:02:06] human being? Will you open your eyes or
[00:02:09] avoid the things this is revealing? I
[00:02:11] survive [music] what they sent to
[00:02:13] destroy me. Resurrected like a biblical
[00:02:15] story. They thought that it was the old
[00:02:17] me, but it ain't the old me, it's the
[00:02:19] bold me. I [music] survived what they
[00:02:21] sent to the stormy me. Resurrected like
[00:02:23] a biblical story. They thought that it
[00:02:25] was the old me, but it ain't the old me,
[00:02:27] it's the B me. Huh? Yeah, I'm [music]
[00:02:30] looking dangerous now. Yeah, they
[00:02:32] looking anxious now. Yeah, look at their
[00:02:34] faces now. Yeah, how did [music] they
[00:02:36] make it out? Yeah, I had to break it.
[00:02:39] I'm talking that family curse. Everyone
[00:02:42] said I wouldn't make it. Spoiler alert.
[00:02:44] >> Man, what are you so afraid of? [music]
[00:02:46] Isn't that what life is made of? When
[00:02:49] you think about all you gave up, when
[00:02:51] you think about all the language and the
[00:02:53] [ __ ] that they [music] sold you when
[00:02:55] the tear drops hit your ceiling, will
[00:02:57] you see a human being? Will you open
[00:03:00] [music] your eyes and avoid the pain?
[00:03:01] Girl, why are you so afraid? And what
[00:03:04] are you so afraid? And why are you so
[00:03:07] afraid? [music] And why are you so
[00:03:09] afraid? What are you so afraid? And what
[00:03:12] are you so afraid? And what are you so
[00:03:15] afraid? And what are [music] you so
[00:03:17] afraid?
[00:03:20] >> So what's holding you back? Fear. It's
[00:03:22] irrational.
[00:03:23] >> What are we actually afraid of?
[00:03:26] Especially Christians, you talk about
[00:03:28] eternal life and they're worried about
[00:03:29] losing their stuff and their money. I
[00:03:32] don't get that at all
[00:03:34] because you don't take any of that stuff
[00:03:36] with you when you die. None of it.
[00:03:43] >> [music]
[00:03:49] >> This morning when I woke [music] I
[00:03:51] couldn't stop hearing tear drops on my
[00:03:54] ceiling falling from the [singing] eyes
[00:03:56] of the beautiful angel I had
[00:03:57] slaughtered. Hold me ignoring [music]
[00:04:00] what you told me only for a moment.
[00:04:03] Everything is [music] fine in the
[00:04:04] beautiful golden [singing] path.
[00:04:06] Unfolding anger in response to my
[00:04:09] emotion. [music] All the trauma left
[00:04:11] unopened. Throw it all away and fly
[00:04:13] inside. [music] Get high. Good times.
[00:04:15] I'm reeling from the raindrops on the
[00:04:17] ceiling. From your heart, this is
[00:04:19] revealing. [music]
[00:04:20] You want to get away. You're bored into
[00:04:22] my
[00:04:25] Isn't that what life is made [music] of?
[00:04:27] When you think about all you gave up.
[00:04:29] When you think about all the glamour and
[00:04:31] the money that they [music] sold you
[00:04:33] when the raindrops hit your ceiling.
[00:04:35] Will you see a human being? [music] Will
[00:04:38] you open your eyes or the things this is
[00:04:40] revealing? I survive what they sent to
[00:04:42] destroy me. Resurrected like [music] a
[00:04:44] biblical story. They thought that it was
[00:04:46] the old me, but it ain't the old me.
[00:04:49] It's the bold me. I survive [music] what
[00:04:50] they sent to destroy me. Resurrected
[00:04:52] like a biblical story. They thought that
[00:04:55] it was the old me, but it ain't the old
[00:04:57] me, it's the old me. Huh? Yeah. [music]
[00:04:59] I'm looking dangerous now. Yeah, they
[00:05:01] looking anxious now. Yeah, look at they
[00:05:04] faces now. Yeah, [music] how did they
[00:05:06] make it out? Yeah, I had to break it.
[00:05:09] I'm talking that family curse. Everyone
[00:05:12] said I wouldn't make it. Spoiler alert,
[00:05:14] man. What are you so afraid of? [music]
[00:05:16] Isn't that what life is made of? When
[00:05:18] you think about all you gave up. When
[00:05:20] you [music] think about all the language
[00:05:22] and the [ __ ] that they sold you.
[00:05:24] When your tear drops hit your [music]
[00:05:26] ceiling. We see a human being. Will you
[00:05:29] open your eyes aboard the pain? Girl,
[00:05:31] why are you [music] so afraid? And why
[00:05:34] are you so afraid? And why are you so
[00:05:36] afraid? [music]
[00:05:37] And why are you so afraid? Why are you
[00:05:40] so afraid? And what are [music] you so
[00:05:43] afraid? And what are you so afraid? And
[00:05:46] why are you so afraid?
[00:05:49] [music]
[00:05:50] So what's holding you back? Fear. It's
[00:05:52] irrational. What are we actually afraid
[00:05:55] of? Especially Christians, you talk
[00:05:57] about eternal life and they're worried
[00:05:59] about losing their stuff and their
[00:06:00] money. I don't get that at all
[00:06:04] because you don't take any of that stuff
[00:06:06] with you when you die. None of it.
[00:06:11] [music]
[00:07:01] Every story we tell here at O'Keefe
[00:07:03] Media Group, breaking the news, going
[00:07:05] places others won't, taking risks others
[00:07:07] won't, is powered by your support and by
[00:07:12] [music]
[00:07:19] this morning. When I woke, I couldn't
[00:07:21] stop hearing tear [music] drops on my
[00:07:23] ceiling. Falling from the eyes of the
[00:07:25] beautiful [singing] angel I had
[00:07:27] slaughtered. Hold me, ignoring what you
[00:07:30] told me only [music] for a moment.
[00:07:33] Everything is fine [singing] in the
[00:07:34] beautiful golden path unfolding. Anger
[00:07:37] in response to my emotion. All the
[00:07:39] [music] trauma left unopen. Throw it all
[00:07:42] away and fly inside. Get high. Good
[00:07:44] times. I'm reeling [music] from the
[00:07:46] raindrops on the ceiling. from your
[00:07:48] heart. This is revealing. You want to
[00:07:50] get away. You're bored into my [music]
[00:07:53] afraid of. Isn't that what life is made
[00:07:56] of? When you think about all you gave
[00:07:58] up. When you think about [music] all the
[00:08:00] glamour and the money that they
[00:08:02] [singing] sold you when the raindrops
[00:08:03] hit your ceiling. Will you see a human
[00:08:06] being? Will you open your [music] eyes
[00:08:08] or the things this is revealing? I
[00:08:11] survive what they sent to destroy me.
[00:08:13] Resurrected like a biblical story.
[00:08:15] >> [music]
[00:08:15] >> They thought that it was the old me, but
[00:08:17] it ain't the old me, it's the bold me. I
[00:08:19] survived [music] what they sent to the
[00:08:21] stormy. Resurrected like a biblical
[00:08:23] story. They thought that it was the old
[00:08:25] me. But it ain't the old me, it's the
[00:08:27] bold me. Huh? Yeah, [music] I'm looking
[00:08:29] dangerous now. Yeah, they looking
[00:08:31] anxious now. Yeah, look at their faces
[00:08:34] now. Yeah, how did they make [music] it
[00:08:36] out? Yeah, I had to break it. I'm
[00:08:39] talking that family curse. Everyone said
[00:08:41] I wouldn't make it. Spoiler [music]
[00:08:43] alert,
[00:08:43] >> man. What are you so afraid of? Isn't
[00:08:46] that what life is made of? When you
[00:08:48] think about all you gave up? [music]
[00:08:50] When you think about all the language
[00:08:52] and the [ __ ] that they sold you.
[00:08:54] Will the tear drops hit your ceiling?
[00:08:56] Will you see a human being? [music] Will
[00:08:58] you open your eyes or the pain? Girl,
[00:09:01] why are you so afraid? And why are you
[00:09:03] so afraid? And why [music] are you so
[00:09:06] afraid? And why are you so afraid? Why
[00:09:10] are you so afraid? Why are [music] you
[00:09:12] so afraid? And what are you so afraid?
[00:09:16] And what are you so afraid?
[00:09:19] >> So what's holding you back? Fear. It's
[00:09:22] irrational. What are we actually afraid
[00:09:25] of? Especially Christians. You talk
[00:09:27] about eternal life and they're worried
[00:09:28] about losing their stuff and their
[00:09:30] money. I don't get [music] that at all
[00:09:34] because you don't take any of that stuff
[00:09:35] with you when you die. None of it.
[00:09:42] [music]
[00:09:48] >> [music]
[00:09:48] >> This morning when I woke, I couldn't
[00:09:50] stop hearing tear drops on my ceiling
[00:09:54] falling from the eyes of [singing] the
[00:09:55] beautiful angel I had slaughtered. Hold
[00:09:58] me, ignoring what you told me, only
[00:10:01] [music] for a moment. Everything is fine
[00:10:03] and the beautiful golden path unfolding
[00:10:06] anger [music] in response to my emotion.
[00:10:09] All the trauma left unopen. Throw it
[00:10:11] [music] all away and fly inside. Get
[00:10:13] high. Good times. I'm reeling from the
[00:10:15] raindrops on the [music] ceiling. From
[00:10:17] your heart, this is revealing. You want
[00:10:20] to get away. You're bored into my afraid
[00:10:23] of. Isn't that what [music] life is made
[00:10:25] of? When you think about all you gave
[00:10:28] up. When you think about all the glamour
[00:10:30] and the [music and singing] money that
[00:10:31] they sold you. When the raindrops hit
[00:10:33] your ceiling. Will you see a heal with
[00:10:36] being? Will you open your eyes [music]
[00:10:38] and avoid the things this is revealing?
[00:10:40] I survive what they sent to destroy me.
[00:10:42] [music] Resurrected like a biblical
[00:10:44] story. They thought that it was the old
[00:10:46] me, but it ain't the old me, it's the
[00:10:48] bold me. [music] I survive what they
[00:10:50] sent to destroy me. Resurrected like a
[00:10:52] biblical story. They [music] thought
[00:10:54] that it was the old me, but it ain't the
[00:10:56] old me, it's the bold me. Huh? Yeah,
[00:10:58] [music] I'm looking dangerous now. Yeah,
[00:11:00] they looking anxious now. Yeah, look at
[00:11:03] they faces now. Yeah, [music] how did
[00:11:05] they make it out? Yeah, I had to break
[00:11:08] it. I'm talking that [music] family
[00:11:10] curse. Everyone said I wouldn't make it.
[00:11:12] Spoiler alert. Man, what are you so
[00:11:14] afraid of? Isn't that what life is made
[00:11:17] [music] of? When you think about all you
[00:11:19] gave up when you think about all the
[00:11:21] language and the [ __ ] [music] that
[00:11:23] they sold you when the tear drops hit
[00:11:25] your ceiling. Will you see a [music]
[00:11:27] human being? Will you open your eyes?
[00:11:29] Avoid the pain. Why are you so afraid?
[00:11:32] [music]
[00:11:32] And what are you so afraid? And what are
[00:11:35] you so afraid? And what are you so
[00:11:38] [music] afraid? Why are you so afraid?
[00:11:41] And what are you so afraid? And what are
[00:11:44] you [music] so afraid? And what are you
[00:11:46] so afraid?
[00:11:49] So what's holding you back? Fear. It's
[00:11:51] irrational.
[00:11:52] >> What are we actually afraid of?
[00:11:55] Especially Christians, we talk about
[00:11:57] eternal life and they're worried about
[00:11:58] losing their stuff and their money. I
[00:12:01] don't get that at all
[00:12:03] because you don't take [music] any of
[00:12:04] that stuff with you when you die. None
[00:12:07] of it.
[00:12:12] [music]
[00:12:18] This morning when I woke, [music] I
[00:12:20] couldn't stop hearing tear drops on my
[00:12:23] ceiling falling from the eyes of the
[00:12:25] beautiful angel I had slaughtered.
[00:12:27] [music] Hold me, ignoring what you told
[00:12:29] me.
[00:12:30] Only for a moment. Everything is fine in
[00:12:33] the [singing] beautiful golden path
[00:12:35] unfolding. Anger in response to my
[00:12:37] [music] emotion. All the trauma left
[00:12:40] unopen. Throw it all away and fly
[00:12:42] [music] inside. Get high. Good times.
[00:12:44] I'm reeling from the raindrops on the
[00:12:46] ceiling. From your heart, this is
[00:12:48] revealing. [music]
[00:12:49] You want to get away. You're bored into
[00:12:51] my afraid of. Isn't that what life is
[00:12:55] made of? When you think about all you
[00:12:57] gave up. When you think about [music]
[00:12:59] all the glamour and the money that they
[00:13:01] sold you when the raindrops hit your
[00:13:03] ceiling. Will you see a human being?
[00:13:06] [music] Will you open your eyes or the
[00:13:08] things this is revealing? I survive what
[00:13:11] they sent to destroy me. Resurrected
[00:13:13] like [music] a biblical story. They
[00:13:14] thought that it was the old me, but it
[00:13:17] ain't the old me. It's the bold me. I
[00:13:19] [music]
[00:13:19] sent to destroy me. Resurrected like a
[00:13:22] biblical story. They thought that it was
[00:13:24] the old but it ain't the
[00:13:28] >> Welcome back everyone to the price is my
[00:13:30] life. My name is James O'Keefe and we
[00:13:32] are breaking news today with a story
[00:13:35] about 8A federal fraudulent
[00:13:38] subcontractors and I all told you to
[00:13:41] tune in today because we have a special
[00:13:42] treat. We have a whistleblower with
[00:13:44] voice disguised calling in on the
[00:13:47] minority subcontracting fraud from the
[00:13:50] very institution that we exposed last
[00:13:53] week. And we're going to be breaking
[00:13:55] today. We have a check if we want to
[00:13:57] pull it up on the screen from an
[00:13:58] insider. We have multiple insiders at
[00:14:02] this Susanville
[00:14:04] Indian Rancheria. This is the
[00:14:06] organization that Ciro, which stands for
[00:14:10] Susanville Indian Rancheria Corporation.
[00:14:15] This is a [snorts] check that shows that
[00:14:18] there's a dividend from there it is,
[00:14:21] Fermage Crutchfield. He is the CEO of
[00:14:25] ATI signing the check for $2 million on
[00:14:30] October 17th. That's just a few days
[00:14:32] before we published our story.
[00:14:35] >> [snorts]
[00:14:35] >> Fermage Quadriville ATI presents this
[00:14:37] 2024 distribution check for $2 million
[00:14:40] in Susanville, California, leveraging
[00:14:42] that 8A status for contracts.
[00:14:46] And as of last week, the Treasury
[00:14:48] Secretary suspending the $253
[00:14:52] million contract to ADI. Now, the
[00:14:55] question remains, where does this $2
[00:14:57] million go? [snorts] This $2 million
[00:15:00] check, it doesn't get distributed to the
[00:15:02] people over there in Susanville.
[00:15:05] And we have a whistleblower that we're
[00:15:07] going to speak to. Before we go to the
[00:15:09] whistleblower, let's go to the chart
[00:15:10] that shows how this racket works. We
[00:15:14] have a chart that illustrates uh we
[00:15:16] designed the Super 8A. 8A is a
[00:15:19] minorityowned disadvantaged firm. Super
[00:15:22] 8A entities associated with Fermage
[00:15:24] Crutchfield. The CEO of Ciro Federal
[00:15:30] [snorts] distributes to ATI government
[00:15:31] solutions, Terara Solutions Services
[00:15:33] Incorporated. The CEO for Mitch
[00:15:35] Crutchfield is engaged as the chief
[00:15:38] financial officer and all these other
[00:15:40] organizations that we have embroiled in
[00:15:42] our sting. We have another chart
[00:15:46] here today if we can throw this up on
[00:15:48] the screen [snorts] that shows all the
[00:15:50] different organizations
[00:15:52] and all the money that they get for
[00:15:55] Tribes Construction, ATI Government
[00:15:57] Solutions, SFS Global, Terara Solutions,
[00:16:00] Cirmed, Ciro Correctional Services. Look
[00:16:04] at all this money. [snorts]
[00:16:06] There's something called Four Tribes
[00:16:07] Construction formed in 2011. General
[00:16:11] Construction estimated historical total
[00:16:13] value $287 million. This is [snorts]
[00:16:16] just one of many, many, many different
[00:16:18] rackets.
[00:16:20] And look at all the money.
[00:16:22] Look at all the money these
[00:16:25] organizations are getting. [snorts]
[00:16:29] Circle Med LLC, Circle Correctional
[00:16:31] Services,
[00:16:34] and and General Construction. This is
[00:16:36] something called four tribes.
[00:16:39] [snorts]
[00:16:42] The chart illustrates the network of
[00:16:44] super 8A organizations. Ciro oversees
[00:16:47] multiple subsidiaries including Coco
[00:16:50] Federal, Ciro Med LLC, Ciro IT, Ciro
[00:16:53] Correctional Facilities. The network
[00:16:55] expands further through ATI government
[00:16:57] solutions and Terra Solutions, which
[00:16:59] also is connected to Crutchfield and
[00:17:01] share executive leadership.
[00:17:04] Now, the Susanville Indian Rancheria
[00:17:06] Corporation is a fedally chartered
[00:17:07] tribal corporation that owns several 8A
[00:17:09] certified entities. The structure allows
[00:17:12] the use of tribal and minority
[00:17:14] contracting advantages across multiple
[00:17:16] companies, all linked to Hermage
[00:17:17] Crutchfield.
[00:17:19] So, [snorts] now we have an insider.
[00:17:21] People have come to us like we've never
[00:17:23] had them come before. Dozens of people
[00:17:26] inside these minority owned 8A companies
[00:17:29] that want to blow the whistle. Now, none
[00:17:31] of them want to actually speak on the
[00:17:32] record.
[00:17:34] Now, later today, I'm going to be having
[00:17:36] Thomas Drake, the extraordinary NSA
[00:17:39] whistleblower that came before Edward
[00:17:41] Snowden on. He's going to be on for two
[00:17:43] hours live.
[00:17:44] And there's the call-in number for
[00:17:46] people who want to speak. If you are a
[00:17:49] um a member of OMG, if you're a
[00:17:51] subscriber to OMG, you'll be able to ask
[00:17:53] Thomas Drake questions live over the
[00:17:55] air. and if you want to call in live
[00:17:57] right there to talk to us about this
[00:17:59] breaking story. But we're going to have
[00:18:00] people call in with their voice
[00:18:02] distorted.
[00:18:03] It's tragic that we live in a world
[00:18:06] where people are not willing to say the
[00:18:08] quiet part out loud, not willing to tell
[00:18:10] the truth.
[00:18:12] So, we have to distort their voice. I've
[00:18:15] spoken to so many people
[00:18:18] um so many people that have witnessed
[00:18:22] this corruption, this scam. We even
[00:18:25] spoke to insiders at Accenture,
[00:18:28] Accenture Federal Services. But before
[00:18:30] we we read some of those tips, I'm going
[00:18:32] to bring on an individual I spoke to
[00:18:34] yesterday. We distorted his voice and
[00:18:36] this guy is inside.
[00:18:39] That's right. We have a whistleblower on
[00:18:40] the inside now coming to us. Put that
[00:18:42] check back on the screen for those just
[00:18:44] tuning in. This [snorts] is a check from
[00:18:46] Susanville. This is a check to
[00:18:48] Susanville Indian Rancheria signed by
[00:18:51] Fermage Crutchfield, the CEO of ATI
[00:18:54] distribution check. Apparently, there's
[00:18:57] 100 hundreds of millions of dollars
[00:18:59] going to this going to this uh
[00:19:03] Susanville Indian Rancheria.
[00:19:06] They're taking half of the money. Where
[00:19:07] are the hundreds of millions of dollars
[00:19:08] going? They're not going to the people
[00:19:10] who live there who are impoverished.
[00:19:13] It's very destitute there.
[00:19:16] So, let's load up the conversation I've
[00:19:19] had with this whistleblower, this
[00:19:20] insider. [snorts] This is going to be
[00:19:23] this is this is going to be a watershed
[00:19:24] moment, folks. We're going to have
[00:19:26] people on the inside of everywhere,
[00:19:28] particularly the ADA minority owned
[00:19:30] subcontractors, and we're going to have
[00:19:32] them speak to us in the shadows with
[00:19:35] their voice disguised. Let's cue this
[00:19:37] up. And here here's my conversation with
[00:19:40] the Ciro insider. Tell
[00:19:42] >> me who you are, sir.
[00:19:46] >> [snorts and clears throat]
[00:19:46] >> circumstance for Indian Ranchoration.
[00:19:49] Uh I worked there from the early 2000s
[00:19:53] till the mid 20s.
[00:19:57] >> Walk me through you overheard or you
[00:20:00] witnessed some of these people talk
[00:20:02] about passroughs.
[00:20:04] >> There was a meeting um more than one
[00:20:07] case but one specifically privy to where
[00:20:10] they were discussing you know who the
[00:20:12] employees were. how the work gets done
[00:20:15] was told it was the tribe provided
[00:20:17] ownership
[00:20:18] and in some cases leadership on paper
[00:20:21] but uh did leave with the impression
[00:20:23] that the majority of the work was not
[00:20:26] done by tribal members that's my
[00:20:29] understanding
[00:20:30] >> and [clears throat] we have a check here
[00:20:31] sir federal services the Susanville
[00:20:34] Indian rancher that's dated last week
[00:20:37] signed by fermage crutchfield $2 million
[00:20:40] to the tribe
[00:20:42] >> so so initially was set up to create a
[00:20:45] for-profit enterprise for the tribe.
[00:20:49] [clears throat] So the general council
[00:20:50] comprise is comprised of all their adult
[00:20:52] members. They uh have given dayto-day
[00:20:56] [clears throat] business
[00:20:57] responsibilities to the tribal business
[00:20:59] council and sero was reporting or does
[00:21:04] report to the tribal business council.
[00:21:07] Some people liked the casino, some
[00:21:09] people didn't. Some people like the
[00:21:11] for-profit enterprise. Some people
[00:21:13] didn't. Everybody was in agreement that
[00:21:15] there wasn't enough money for the tribal
[00:21:17] members or, you know, for their
[00:21:19] community. The goal for was to smooth
[00:21:22] out those folks in the road.
[00:21:25] >> So, this check for $2 million, where
[00:21:27] does the money go? Cuz how many how many
[00:21:30] was it $700 million when you and I
[00:21:33] spoke? How much money has
[00:21:36] or Susanville Indian Rancheria taken in
[00:21:39] from these federal no bid contracts?
[00:21:41] >> From what I could find just on, you
[00:21:43] know, what's available publicly between
[00:21:45] 700 to 750 million.
[00:21:48] >> Yet the people of the Susanville
[00:21:50] rancheria are are isn't it poor and
[00:21:53] impoverished community for the most
[00:21:55] part?
[00:21:57] >> Yeah, I mean they're the poorest of the
[00:21:59] poor and very part of California. So,
[00:22:02] where is the $700 million actually
[00:22:04] going?
[00:22:05] >> That's that's a great question. You
[00:22:07] think it was that sort of contract, even
[00:22:09] if it was they were awarded let's say
[00:22:11] 750 million and they got half of it to
[00:22:14] the tribe that 350 million, I guarantee
[00:22:17] [clears throat] there's not 350 million
[00:22:19] improvements or betterment of tribal
[00:22:22] facilities in that area.
[00:22:23] >> The tribe was taking 50% of the money.
[00:22:25] How is that happening?
[00:22:26] >> Uh, so in order to be a GSA, they have
[00:22:28] to be 51% owner. uh at least on paper.
[00:22:31] [clears throat]
[00:22:32] Arlington National Cemetery, for
[00:22:34] instance, needs some work done. They can
[00:22:36] pop on there as a basically no bid
[00:22:39] contractor and take that. So, they can
[00:22:41] take that money and then hire cheap
[00:22:42] labor, which isn't the tribe, so they're
[00:22:45] not paying their own. They could
[00:22:47] [clears throat] subcontract out that
[00:22:48] cheap labor to do the work for our
[00:22:51] veterans and then help their own
[00:22:53] community. And [clears throat]
[00:22:55] just not right. I mean, you mentioned
[00:22:58] the check for 24 dispersements. Um,
[00:23:02] let's say that it's 750 million and we
[00:23:06] have back to 2010.
[00:23:09] So that's 15 years. On average, that'd
[00:23:11] be $50 million a year. Um, if they took
[00:23:15] 51%
[00:23:17] cuz they have 51% ownership at the
[00:23:19] minimum, they do 51% of the work. That's
[00:23:21] 25.5 million. What is that? Less than
[00:23:24] less than 10% of their revenue from
[00:23:27] contracts have gone back to the
[00:23:28] community. Uh you mentioned a few people
[00:23:31] uh Robert Kennedy was a guy that you had
[00:23:35] interacted with.
[00:23:37] Uh also Doyle Lowry. So Robert Kennedy
[00:23:41] is a CE was the CEO of Ciro and now is
[00:23:44] the head of something called Bold
[00:23:45] Concepts in Maryland. Doyle Lowry, the
[00:23:49] CEO of Four Tribes Construction. Can you
[00:23:51] just walk through some of these players
[00:23:52] and who they were and and how they
[00:23:56] participated in the scheme? Um, in 2007,
[00:23:59] Doy Lowry was a tribal representative
[00:24:03] for the Susan Millian Metro and uh met
[00:24:06] with one of those concept subsidies for
[00:24:09] federal contracting and bonding. What
[00:24:12] seemed like good intentions as it was
[00:24:13] explained around the the community
[00:24:15] [clears throat]
[00:24:16] at the time. Um, Robert Kennedy was the
[00:24:18] CFO for uh the casino uh property,
[00:24:22] Diamond Mountain Casino. 2008 the tribal
[00:24:25] business council had an economic retreat
[00:24:28] [clears throat] hatched the idea quoting
[00:24:30] that to develop circ they applied for
[00:24:34] and received an ANA grant to form circle
[00:24:36] under self-governance circle federal was
[00:24:40] created shortly after 2012 circle then
[00:24:43] was the different
[00:24:46] companies that fell underneath the
[00:24:47] circle umbrella and used [clears throat]
[00:24:49] their core competencies none of them
[00:24:51] ever did any work it It was either 2009
[00:24:54] or 2010, Robert Kennedy moved from CFO
[00:24:56] of casino to CEO of Ciro. Four tribes
[00:25:02] construction [clears throat] was created
[00:25:04] in 2011 and Doyle Lowry was the sole
[00:25:07] employee. Doyle Lowry was the CEO of
[00:25:10] Four Tribes Construction. And this is a
[00:25:12] lot uh for people to understand. How
[00:25:15] does Four Tribes relate to ATI and Ciro?
[00:25:19] Is Four Tribes a different company? So,
[00:25:21] Four [clears throat] Tribes uh was one
[00:25:23] of their first ADA companies that were
[00:25:26] created uh to handle uh contracts. Oddly
[00:25:30] enough, they're not in Susanville,
[00:25:31] California. They're in America. Sergo
[00:25:35] started building out different branches
[00:25:39] of these AA companies. The long-term
[00:25:41] goal, as I understood it, was to
[00:25:44] incubate these AA companies. So you
[00:25:47] could have, you know, construction
[00:25:48] company or an IT company or medical
[00:25:52] company. ATI [clears throat]
[00:25:54] uh was formed under their circle federal
[00:25:59] as another ADA GSA with the the two
[00:26:02] primaries that were on their
[00:26:03] documentary. There isn't a whole lot of
[00:26:05] information as to why
[00:26:08] they sought out soon building Rancheria
[00:26:11] specifically. Uh but they met with the
[00:26:14] chair at the time and pretty They agree
[00:26:17] to start ATI governance solutions.
[00:26:19] >> So why did you decide to come forward to
[00:26:21] me after the story we show we saw with
[00:26:25] Anish and Meline talking about
[00:26:28] passroughs ADA contracting systems.
[00:26:31] >> Prior to my time
[00:26:34] there um I had worked within the AA GSC
[00:26:38] contracting space uh with another
[00:26:40] federal contractor. Um it was trially
[00:26:44] owned. Most of the tribes um and
[00:26:46] communities that we won contracts in
[00:26:49] were almost exclusively impoverished. My
[00:26:52] understanding at the time with the ADA
[00:26:54] program was to help disadvantaged
[00:26:56] companies
[00:26:58] uh get these contracts to, you know,
[00:27:00] help communities [clears throat] and
[00:27:01] help people in need.
[00:27:03] >> At what point did you realize something
[00:27:05] wasn't right? in watching the interviews
[00:27:07] and stuff and recalling my time there,
[00:27:10] they were abusing the system that
[00:27:12] basically taking money away from
[00:27:15] communities [clears throat] that that
[00:27:16] really need it.
[00:27:17] >> Why are you why are you talking to me
[00:27:19] and what do you want to happen? What do
[00:27:21] you think will happen? What do people
[00:27:23] need to know about this whole racket?
[00:27:25] >> When you start looking at the numbers
[00:27:26] and the amount of money that's there and
[00:27:28] I'm a taxpayer, um I have my whole life.
[00:27:33] That's a lot of money. Um online is not
[00:27:36] accounted for in a [clears throat] very
[00:27:38] small part of the world from a little
[00:27:41] tribe in Northern California. It could
[00:27:44] be a watershed moment to kind of help
[00:27:47] get this rain in and under control. It
[00:27:50] [clears throat] might just be another
[00:27:51] voice in a choir west screaming
[00:27:53] corruption. I don't know. But I do
[00:27:55] [clears throat] know it's not right. I
[00:27:57] do uh do know people that uh are members
[00:28:00] of the student community. There's some
[00:28:05] really good people there u just trying
[00:28:08] to do what they can to get by. I would
[00:28:10] like to see, you know, things better for
[00:28:12] them if they're going to continue giving
[00:28:15] these sort of things, you know, have
[00:28:16] some accountability back to their own
[00:28:18] people. Um if it's not [clears throat]
[00:28:20] legit what's going on, it needs to stop.
[00:28:23] I mean, it doesn't feel legit, I guess,
[00:28:25] is kind of where I come from.
[00:28:28] >> All right. Well, thank you for your time
[00:28:30] and we will certainly be in touch and
[00:28:32] hopefully more people come forward.
[00:28:37] insider. We have insiders coming to us
[00:28:39] constantly and they're all afraid of
[00:28:42] losing their jobs. They're afraid of
[00:28:43] retaliation. Even the people who don't
[00:28:45] work there anymore are afraid of
[00:28:46] retaliation. The whole world is afraid
[00:28:48] of retaliation. And I and and I think
[00:28:50] it's a tragic commentary on our on our
[00:28:52] world, on our humanity, frankly, on
[00:28:55] human nature that no one's willing to
[00:28:56] say the truth out loud. They all fear
[00:28:59] the price they have to pay. So, uh, we
[00:29:02] are going to be having people call in
[00:29:04] with their voice disguised, providing us
[00:29:06] information. Please, if you're just
[00:29:07] tuning in, put on the screen again that
[00:29:09] check that has been given to us. Uh,
[00:29:12] this is the distribution check from ATI
[00:29:14] back to Susanville Indian Rancheria.
[00:29:17] This is a scam, a fraud that is so
[00:29:20] pervasive. It's 100 billion dollar
[00:29:23] industry. this these fake AA contractors
[00:29:27] breaking the law, doing no work, acting
[00:29:30] as passroughs, but don't take my word
[00:29:32] for it. That's what they said in the
[00:29:33] hidden camera. And now we have people
[00:29:35] giving us the receipts. This is a new
[00:29:36] whistleblower providing the check. They
[00:29:39] should be scared to death. The people
[00:29:41] that are watching right now, and I know
[00:29:42] they're watching, I know you're watching
[00:29:44] out there, Susanville, Indian Rancher,
[00:29:45] you should be scared to death that we
[00:29:47] have people that work there who are
[00:29:50] sending and leaking to me. We also have
[00:29:53] this agenda that was given to me. If we
[00:29:55] could throw that up on the screen. This
[00:29:56] is the Susanville Indian Rancher
[00:29:58] Economic Summit meeting October 17th at
[00:30:01] 2 p.m. the agenda, the call to order.
[00:30:03] Chairman Hart. Um uh if my team could
[00:30:07] actually go to the the part one of the
[00:30:09] video as I'm talking where we actually
[00:30:11] interviewed Chairman Hart. Let's put
[00:30:13] that back on the screen as you load up
[00:30:14] that video. Uh, we actually interviewed
[00:30:17] undercover Aryan Hart at the Susanville
[00:30:21] Rancheria in part one, but this document
[00:30:24] was given to me by someone who works at
[00:30:26] Ciro.
[00:30:28] And this was on October 17th when they
[00:30:31] took questions from four tribe
[00:30:32] enterprises, Federal Services, Diamond
[00:30:35] Mountain Casino and Hotel. These are all
[00:30:38] firms, subcontractors
[00:30:40] that the tribe uh uh works with under
[00:30:43] this AA pass through scheme. And we have
[00:30:46] some hidden camera footage where he
[00:30:47] actually there he is, Aryan Hart, the
[00:30:50] guy who called the meeting to order,
[00:30:51] speaking to our undercover journalist.
[00:30:53] Go ahead and play that again.
[00:30:56] >> Ownership to be able to obtain that.
[00:30:58] >> It makes it easier to get into the AA
[00:31:03] contracting for sure. Yes. Aryan
[00:31:05] confirms that if they were to appear as
[00:31:07] the owners of our company, it would make
[00:31:09] it easier to obtain government
[00:31:11] contracts. Aryan goes on to claim that
[00:31:13] we may need to relinquish 51% of the
[00:31:16] ownership to them.
[00:31:18] >> So really, it's really just coming up
[00:31:20] with a number that you would want in
[00:31:23] order to appear to be the owner of my
[00:31:26] art company,
[00:31:27] >> right? And there
[00:31:29] and some of that it will be determined
[00:31:32] by the AAA corporation. So we may have
[00:31:35] to be like 51%.
[00:31:39] >> Well, there you have it. So 51% owners
[00:31:42] and they take half of the money. Now if
[00:31:46] we could throw on the screen some of the
[00:31:47] other tips that we've received. Uh
[00:31:49] actually play that put the this is over
[00:31:52] signal. This is a much larger story here
[00:31:54] if we want to pursue it. A lot of prime
[00:31:56] sub and sub relationships out there. Uh,
[00:31:59] if we could throw that tip on the screen
[00:32:01] of of we just got this guy telling us
[00:32:03] that we found one patient with a disease
[00:32:05] and not to get too fixated on ATI who is
[00:32:09] just doing what every other government
[00:32:10] contractor is doing and everybody knows
[00:32:12] it. [snorts] Here's a fact. But by the
[00:32:14] way, we've gotten hundreds of these
[00:32:15] messages. The entire thing is driven by
[00:32:17] DEI. This contract will go to a
[00:32:20] womanowned business. So ATI set itself
[00:32:22] up to technically speaking be a
[00:32:23] womanowned business. All the president
[00:32:25] has to do is extend the EO and DEI to
[00:32:27] cover all government work contracts and
[00:32:30] specify to all appropriate government
[00:32:32] officials that race, gender is based on
[00:32:34] no longer be awarded only on merit. If
[00:32:36] you're buying toilet paper, sure, go low
[00:32:38] bidder. This was not a [clears throat]
[00:32:39] single company being crooked. This is
[00:32:41] James stumbling into a nest and
[00:32:43] discovering that government contracting
[00:32:45] is all like this. Literally zero of my
[00:32:49] friends and colleagues I've sent your
[00:32:50] video to were surprised in any way.
[00:32:53] That's literally every single day across
[00:32:54] the nation is nothing shocking. That's
[00:32:56] the bigger story. Don't focus on one
[00:32:59] company. Let me just We'll read the rest
[00:33:00] of this, but let me just say to the
[00:33:01] audience, you're wrong. Uh the only
[00:33:03] reason anyone cares about this is
[00:33:04] because we got one guy on tape. People
[00:33:07] don't care about big economic numbers,
[00:33:09] hundred billion dollars. What did the
[00:33:11] guy say? It's just a statistic. Um but
[00:33:14] the only reason people care is because
[00:33:16] we got the guy on tape admitting it.
[00:33:19] As Saul Linsky taught us in rules for
[00:33:21] radicals, you must pick the target,
[00:33:23] freeze it, personalize it, polarize it
[00:33:27] in order for people to care about the
[00:33:28] whole racket. But yes, you are generally
[00:33:31] correct that this is not about ATI.
[00:33:35] This is about the entire system is built
[00:33:38] upon a house of cards. Let's go back to
[00:33:40] what he wrote.
[00:33:42] That's literally every single day across
[00:33:44] the nation. The other problem is
[00:33:46] nepotism involving companies who
[00:33:48] position themselves in congressional
[00:33:49] districts for the influential
[00:33:50] politicians. A connected person who runs
[00:33:53] a shell company wins a contract then
[00:33:55] subs out the work to a company like mine
[00:33:57] just like ATI. That's happens every day
[00:34:00] everywhere. You can also solve the
[00:34:02] problem by limiting how much people can
[00:34:04] subcontract out.
[00:34:06] You have to win by best value, not low
[00:34:08] bidder.
[00:34:12] You were on the precipice of a huge
[00:34:13] story. Your story is shocking, but it'll
[00:34:15] be replaced by another story in a week
[00:34:17] and everyone will forget and move on.
[00:34:19] The larger stories you need to put in
[00:34:21] front of the administration is I was
[00:34:22] shocked when we came across the story
[00:34:23] and I was even more shocked to find out
[00:34:25] this is not an anomaly. This is the way
[00:34:27] it is. The good news is there are a few
[00:34:30] basic easy fixes which you can do right
[00:34:31] now. So what we need are whistleblowers
[00:34:34] to come forward and I am proud to say
[00:34:36] that we have whistleblowers inside
[00:34:37] Accenture. That's right, Accenture. Um,
[00:34:41] can you throw up a few more tips on the
[00:34:43] screen? And I just want to I just want
[00:34:44] to let the powers that be know who we're
[00:34:46] talking to on the inside of these
[00:34:48] general and subcontractors. Let's read
[00:34:50] some of these, shall we? These are just
[00:34:52] a tiny fraction 1% of the whistleblower
[00:34:55] tips that we've been giving getting
[00:34:56] inside the federal government.
[00:34:59] We have people everywhere,
[00:35:02] but like fleas
[00:35:04] everywhere.
[00:35:06] Here we go. There are more angles to
[00:35:08] your ADA scam that the ATI government
[00:35:10] sol from personal experience. That's
[00:35:12] right. We have people inside Bold
[00:35:13] Concepts and in personal meetings with
[00:35:16] Bold Concepts. This is another company
[00:35:17] under Susanville Indian Rancheria. The
[00:35:19] company is a front for numerous ADA
[00:35:21] operations. Bold concepts soliciting
[00:35:24] American native tribes to start
[00:35:27] skeletonized construction companies
[00:35:28] where Bold Concept steers their business
[00:35:30] operations. They get these ADA
[00:35:32] organizations preferential treatment,
[00:35:34] discriminatory contracts, and of course,
[00:35:37] Bold Concepts takes a big cut for the
[00:35:39] services and provides the bonding and
[00:35:40] sales. Many of these AA firms have
[00:35:42] numerous entities under one
[00:35:44] organization. It's all a racket. I know
[00:35:46] from personal experience. [snorts] Bold
[00:35:49] Concepts, Gaithersburg, Maryland.
[00:35:51] Boldconcepts.com.
[00:35:54] Bold Concepts is run by Robert Kennedy.
[00:35:57] That's the guy who was the CEO of Ciro.
[00:36:00] We know this only because people working
[00:36:02] for them are talking to me. Let's put
[00:36:04] the next tip on the screen.
[00:36:09] We've got hundreds of these. We're just
[00:36:11] going to read a few. My dad has an ADA
[00:36:13] designation. I've been trying to help
[00:36:15] him for 18 months. He's 78. He's
[00:36:18] required to increase his business to
[00:36:19] keep his designation and no one will
[00:36:20] talk to us. Explain this to me. Let's go
[00:36:22] to the next one. [snorts] Great job on
[00:36:24] the recent exposure of this AA scam. I
[00:36:26] just want to say that as someone who's
[00:36:28] worked in contracts and Accenture
[00:36:30] Federal Services, there is so much more
[00:36:32] going on and you've just scratched the
[00:36:34] surface. We've had a few people inside
[00:36:35] Accenture reach out to us. Now,
[00:36:37] Accenture has locked their Twitter
[00:36:39] account. We find that very interesting.
[00:36:42] They still have it locked. Why? Because
[00:36:44] they're scared.
[00:36:48] We're talking about so much money. When
[00:36:51] I have NSA whistleblower Thomas Drake on
[00:36:53] here in about 20 minutes, I'm going to
[00:36:56] start by getting his reaction. If you're
[00:36:58] not familiar who with who Thomas Drake
[00:37:00] is, you should be. He's one of the most
[00:37:02] legendary whistleblowers in American
[00:37:03] history. Edward Snowden said if there
[00:37:05] hadn't been a Thomas Drake, there
[00:37:07] couldn't have been an Edward Snowden.
[00:37:09] There are two ways you can blow the
[00:37:10] whistle. Actually, there's three.
[00:37:12] Historically, there are two ways. Number
[00:37:14] one, you can go through the appropriate
[00:37:16] channels. You can go through Congress.
[00:37:18] That's what Thomas Drake did. It didn't
[00:37:20] work for him.
[00:37:22] They did not protect him. We'll talk to
[00:37:24] him about that. Or you can practice a
[00:37:26] kind of civil disobedience and he can go
[00:37:28] to journalists. That's what Edward
[00:37:30] Snowden did. He got a lot of attention
[00:37:32] for that. But maybe there's a third way.
[00:37:36] Maybe you can come to us at OMG and we
[00:37:40] and we have the signal number on the
[00:37:41] screen. Can we put that up, please? We
[00:37:42] know you're watching.
[00:37:44] 9144919395.
[00:37:47] You message us on signal
[00:37:49] and you come to us. We disguise your
[00:37:52] voice
[00:37:53] and we tell your story.
[00:37:56] That's 914-491-9395.
[00:38:01] And can we go back to that tip please on
[00:38:03] the screen on Signal? The Accenture guy.
[00:38:07] Put it back up there.
[00:38:10] Accenture Federal Services is a
[00:38:12] foreignowned company with a special
[00:38:14] agreement with the US government to be
[00:38:16] able to get government contracts similar
[00:38:18] to the ATI racket. Accenture Federal
[00:38:21] Services with a subcontract and the
[00:38:23] census contract doing the majority of
[00:38:24] the work. Accenture is hardleft. They
[00:38:28] are known entity in the GovCon world
[00:38:30] which is why they were chosen for the
[00:38:32] census.
[00:38:34] Most inaccurate ever because they found
[00:38:36] ways to encourage illegal immigrants to
[00:38:39] participate. Accenture Federal Services
[00:38:41] was also the contractor on the
[00:38:42] Department of State contract that helped
[00:38:44] create the global engagement center, the
[00:38:47] dystopian intergovernmental platform
[00:38:49] used to ID and roof people from the
[00:38:51] posts. Accenture Federal Services was
[00:38:54] chosen because they are ideologically
[00:38:56] aligned and will find creative ways to
[00:38:58] circumvent the laws. And this
[00:39:01] whistleblower has some documents
[00:39:03] regarding the Accenture Federal Services
[00:39:06] GEC COVID disinformation contracts. Not
[00:39:09] sure if I'm interested. Well, I'm very
[00:39:11] interested, sir, or ma'am.
[00:39:14] And we're working with that individual
[00:39:15] right now, by the way. You see, we've
[00:39:17] got people everywhere. We've got people
[00:39:20] absolutely everywhere. And isn't that
[00:39:22] isn't that a blessing? [snorts]
[00:39:26] It's a choiceless choice to blow the
[00:39:28] whistle.
[00:39:29] And like I said last week,
[00:39:34] people say nothing ever happens.
[00:39:37] Nothing ever happens. There's no one is
[00:39:39] going to be held accountable for
[00:39:40] anything. But the Treasury Secretary of
[00:39:42] the United States has responded to our
[00:39:44] investigative reporting. The Treasury SE
[00:39:46] secretary has suspended the $253 million
[00:39:49] contract with this Siero ATI racket. Put
[00:39:53] that statement on the screen, please.
[00:39:55] The Small Business Administration is
[00:39:57] looking into the matter. We've heard
[00:39:59] from Senator Grassley's team that he
[00:40:01] wants to talk to these whistleblowers
[00:40:02] that are coming to us.
[00:40:04] And OMG, James O'Keeffe and our
[00:40:07] undercover reporters are are hot on the
[00:40:10] scene undercover. We're we're we're
[00:40:12] actually on the air talking about the
[00:40:14] racket while we're also simultaneously
[00:40:16] undercover investigating it. And if you
[00:40:19] think, "Oh no, they're going to know
[00:40:20] about James. They're going to Don't tell
[00:40:22] them what you're doing." Apparently, a
[00:40:23] $10 wig didn't stop us.
[00:40:27] Like I said, the Treasury Secretary
[00:40:29] suspending the contract.
[00:40:31] Many of you out there, I know what
[00:40:33] you're thinking.
[00:40:35] You're thinking, "Nothing's going to
[00:40:37] happen, James. Nothing's going to happen
[00:40:39] to these people.
[00:40:42] There's no hope.
[00:40:46] And if we could put the Treasury
[00:40:48] Secretary statement on the screen,
[00:40:49] please, while we're while we're talking
[00:40:50] to the audience, and I'm telling them
[00:40:51] what they're saying. Nothing's going to
[00:40:53] happen to these people. This is Treasury
[00:40:55] Secretary Scott Bessett. The taxpayer
[00:40:58] dollars must be protected.
[00:41:00] Kelly at the SBA has my full support to
[00:41:02] get to the bottom of the abuses. US
[00:41:04] Treasury will cooperate fully. the
[00:41:06] inspector generals and enforcement
[00:41:07] partners to safeguard the integrity of
[00:41:09] the Justice Department and um I am
[00:41:11] talking to the Department of Justice,
[00:41:12] ladies and gentlemen. I have a meeting
[00:41:14] with the Department of Justice later in
[00:41:16] the week. [snorts] But I know what
[00:41:18] you're thinking before we get to some
[00:41:20] callers. I just wanted to make a
[00:41:21] statement and then we'll
[00:41:24] we'll get to the callers that are
[00:41:25] calling in.
[00:41:28] You're thinking,
[00:41:29] "Yeah, we'll get to the callers in a
[00:41:31] moment." You're thinking, "James,
[00:41:33] nothing is going to happen to these
[00:41:34] people.
[00:41:37] No one will be held accountable for
[00:41:38] anything.
[00:41:42] And you can wallow in your self-pity and
[00:41:44] defeatism because that's how you feel
[00:41:47] and that's how you want it to be. You
[00:41:49] can manifest that negative prayer.
[00:41:53] You can you can will it that nothing
[00:41:56] will happen
[00:41:59] or you can say to yourself and say to me
[00:42:02] that we are going to expose the
[00:42:04] [ __ ]
[00:42:07] and we're going to come forward with the
[00:42:09] abuse and the fraud.
[00:42:12] You can say to yourself, well, I have
[00:42:13] children. I have a mortgage. And I, by
[00:42:15] the way, I understand what it feels like
[00:42:17] to be retaliated against. NSA
[00:42:20] whistleblower Thomas Drake. He
[00:42:22] understands what it feels like to have
[00:42:24] federal agents. And we're about to hear
[00:42:25] from him in 15 minutes. We're about to
[00:42:27] talk to this man. He's an unbelievable
[00:42:29] human being.
[00:42:32] You can wallow in your defeatism or you
[00:42:34] can tell yourself that something will be
[00:42:36] done and something can be done.
[00:42:39] Those are your choices.
[00:42:42] The good news is we've got dozens of
[00:42:44] people talking to me. The bad news is
[00:42:47] they're not willing to tell the truth
[00:42:48] out loud. We'll work with them even if
[00:42:50] their voices in the shadows. We'll
[00:42:52] receive their documents. We'll go
[00:42:53] undercover into Accenture.
[00:42:58] Um
[00:42:59] but you cannot do it unless you tell
[00:43:01] yourself that you're going to do it.
[00:43:06] And we're going to expose the entire ADA
[00:43:09] racket. To quote Winston Churchill, "If
[00:43:11] necessary, I'll do it alone with a $10
[00:43:15] wig, but I need your help."
[00:43:19] So, I'll be right back. We're going to
[00:43:21] go to some callers and hear what they
[00:43:23] have to say, and then we'll hear from
[00:43:26] NSA whistleblower Thomas Drake, who
[00:43:28] inspired Ed Snowden, reacting to the ADA
[00:43:30] scandal, and uh reading some of your
[00:43:32] tips live.
[00:43:34] This is James O'Keefe. You know me for
[00:43:37] exposing the truth and holding the
[00:43:38] corrupt elite responsible and
[00:43:41] accountable. However, today I want to
[00:43:42] tell you about protecting your own
[00:43:44] freedom, your [music] finances. Before
[00:43:46] you buy any gold or silver, hear this.
[00:43:48] We're going through one of the biggest
[00:43:50] financial shifts of our lifetime. DD
[00:43:52] dollarization. Nations like China,
[00:43:55] Russia, and Saudi Arabia are pulling
[00:43:56] away from the US dollar. And that
[00:43:58] threatens your savings and retirement
[00:44:00] [music] security. Legendary investor Ray
[00:44:03] Dalio warns skyrocketing debt,
[00:44:06] relentless money printing, and a
[00:44:09] weakening dollar are all part of a
[00:44:10] dangerous cycle that could impact you.
[00:44:12] That's why more Americans are turning to
[00:44:14] real assets like physical gold and
[00:44:16] silver. Gold just surged past $3,700
[00:44:20] per ounce, and momentum is building.
[00:44:22] I've partnered with veteranowned
[00:44:24] American Independence Gold to help you
[00:44:26] take action. Open a qualifying account
[00:44:29] today and get up to $10,000 in bonus
[00:44:32] gold and our free gold protection guide.
[00:44:35] And here's [music] the best part. A
[00:44:36] portion of every sale supports Tunnel to
[00:44:39] Towers and Wounded Warriors. Freedom
[00:44:41] isn't given, it's secured. [music] This
[00:44:43] is James O'Keefe. As always, this is not
[00:44:46] financial advice. Always check with your
[00:44:48] licensed financial adviser before you
[00:44:50] invest.
[00:44:56] ers get their reactions before we get to
[00:44:58] Thomas Drake from the NSA.
[00:45:04] Antonio, you're live.
[00:45:08] >> Yes. Hey Keith, how you doing? It's
[00:45:09] Antonio Lorenzo here.
[00:45:10] >> Hi, Lorenzo. What's going on?
[00:45:14] >> All right, so um are you familiar with
[00:45:16] the HUD section 3 program? Um, reason
[00:45:18] I'm asking is because of section 3. All
[00:45:21] right, this dates back to the Indian
[00:45:23] Civil Rights Act 1968. A lot of people's
[00:45:26] unaware of this information. They just
[00:45:28] want to call it the Civil Rights Act
[00:45:30] 1968. Long story short, HUD section 3 is
[00:45:33] a grant program. [clears throat]
[00:45:34] All right, this is not a loan. This is
[00:45:37] grant money. We're talking about
[00:45:38] hundreds of millions of dollars
[00:45:40] allocated from the feds distributed to
[00:45:43] the states going to countless
[00:45:45] organizations. You got a website you can
[00:45:47] go to. It's called hoodexchange.info.
[00:45:51] All right. hood exchange.info. You
[00:45:54] select grantees. Find a grantee. You can
[00:45:57] pull up who's received six figures to
[00:46:00] seven figures plus yearly, annually,
[00:46:03] over and over and over again. Right. And
[00:46:05] back to the point of the scams and the
[00:46:06] frauds. All right. Once again, this is
[00:46:09] Indian civil rights act. When Martin Lu
[00:46:12] Jr. was the DC said, "I'm getting a
[00:46:13] check." section 3 is the name of the
[00:46:15] check. All right. Now, continuing the
[00:46:19] issue is you have people right that are
[00:46:23] property management, irrigation in real
[00:46:25] estate, you know, um various HUD
[00:46:27] programs, right? Low income housing
[00:46:30] because AA also deals with this
[00:46:32] economically disadvantaged populations,
[00:46:35] right? Same thing with the section three
[00:46:37] money. So you'll see a countless numbers
[00:46:42] [clears throat] of immigrants,
[00:46:43] foreigners if you will, right, that are
[00:46:47] getting these contracts, charging, like
[00:46:49] I've seen these before myself, right?
[00:46:51] I've spoken to people that have been
[00:46:53] receiving HUD contracts, grant money for
[00:46:56] over 20 years in regards to real estate
[00:46:58] alone. Right? Once again, this is tiny
[00:47:01] public Indian housing where they're
[00:47:03] billing the feds, billing the government
[00:47:06] $150 to install a light bulb in the
[00:47:09] apartment. All right,
[00:47:12] >> thank you for the tip. I I hope that
[00:47:15] someone out there can help us expose
[00:47:16] that because we need to expose. Go to
[00:47:19] the next caller. Uh we have another
[00:47:21] caller on the line.
[00:47:24] Is it Doy?
[00:47:26] >> This is Dory.
[00:47:27] >> Hey Droy, how you doing?
[00:47:30] I'm fine. I just wanted to brief. I
[00:47:32] don't want to take up too much of your
[00:47:33] time, James. I know you're a busy, very
[00:47:35] important man. I'm from Cypress, Texas.
[00:47:38] I've been following and listening to you
[00:47:40] for years. I love what you're doing. I'm
[00:47:42] just calling to offer you an encouraging
[00:47:45] word to tell you to keep doing what
[00:47:49] you're doing. You represent honor and
[00:47:52] integrity. And uh our nation needs more
[00:47:56] honorable and and in integral men. Men
[00:47:59] who seek the truth, who stand up for the
[00:48:01] truth, who wants to expose deceit and
[00:48:04] lies. We need more men like you to stand
[00:48:06] up, contribute, [clears throat]
[00:48:08] stand up and um represent um for the
[00:48:13] American people because we need it right
[00:48:15] now. And I just wanted to tell you that,
[00:48:17] man. I'm a big fan. I love what you're
[00:48:19] doing. you've inspired me to do that in
[00:48:22] my little community out here in in
[00:48:24] Cypress. And uh I just want to give you
[00:48:28] a salute as a man trying to be a good
[00:48:30] man from one man to another. I thank
[00:48:33] you, brother. Keep doing what you're
[00:48:34] doing. Expose it all. Help us learn the
[00:48:39] importance. Help Americans learn the
[00:48:41] importance of being honorable and
[00:48:44] truthful and truth seeeking and
[00:48:46] righteous.
[00:48:48] Please keep doing what you're doing,
[00:48:50] sir.
[00:48:50] >> Thank you.
[00:48:51] >> Thank you.
[00:48:51] >> Yeah. I mean, I'll I'll keep doing it. I
[00:48:53] I think that many more people should be
[00:48:55] doing it. And I' and I don't understand
[00:48:57] why. I mean, there's a quote from
[00:48:58] scripture that my colleague just sent
[00:49:00] me. Every idol word will be judged.
[00:49:02] Matthew 12:36. This is for the people
[00:49:04] that sit back and do nothing with the
[00:49:06] excuse that nothing gets done. If you
[00:49:09] tell yourself that you um uh that
[00:49:11] nothing will happen, then you are
[00:49:13] praying literally to yourself that
[00:49:15] nothing will happen. And then there's
[00:49:16] the fear. There's the there's the well
[00:49:18] what about that? What about my children?
[00:49:20] And that that's another one that I don't
[00:49:22] understand because your children are
[00:49:24] going to be looking up to a coward. If
[00:49:27] you like my friend Rick Dante told me uh
[00:49:29] over the weekend that you know he wants
[00:49:32] his son to look up to him when he's when
[00:49:34] you're when he's getting older in life
[00:49:36] and you say, "Dad, what did you do?" He
[00:49:38] said, "Well, I did everything I could."
[00:49:42] We have we have one more caller who's
[00:49:46] going to talk to us about the how do we
[00:49:48] find the companies for the ADA because
[00:49:50] we're we're going to be exposing more of
[00:49:52] this scam uh this ADA contracting scam.
[00:49:55] Craig, are you there?
[00:49:58] >> Yes. Hi, James.
[00:50:00] >> Hey, what do you got Craig? Tell tell us
[00:50:02] how to find these scam companies.
[00:50:05] Yeah, there's uh there's about three
[00:50:07] primary uh sources to uh search for
[00:50:10] these uh uh AA uh companies. Uh there's
[00:50:15] an SBA link. Uh let me see if I can get
[00:50:18] it out to you.
[00:50:20] Um
[00:50:22] sba.gov.
[00:50:24] Uh you can do a search for small
[00:50:25] business search and then in the uh the
[00:50:28] options you can select disadvantage 8A.
[00:50:32] And uh when I did a search on that,
[00:50:34] there's 5,115
[00:50:36] of them across the country.
[00:50:37] >> 5,115.
[00:50:41] >> Yes,
[00:50:42] >> I'm at the SBA I'm at the sba.gov link.
[00:50:45] Where do you click?
[00:50:47] >> Okay, one second.
[00:50:48] >> We're on the SBA's website right now.
[00:50:51] Luckily, we have a SBA, Kelly Laughler,
[00:50:54] who is willing to reform it. We just
[00:50:56] need more evidence. We just need more
[00:50:58] visual evidence, which is what we're
[00:51:01] going to do. We have a num number of
[00:51:03] other tribes and and uh 8A scams uh
[00:51:08] firms that have been on our radar that
[00:51:10] we're investigating.
[00:51:12] We've got Chenga tribe with over a dozen
[00:51:14] AAS. Shuka tribe with a dozen ADAs,
[00:51:17] super AAS.
[00:51:19] Nakuna acts as a pass through. And there
[00:51:22] are some real egregious offenders here.
[00:51:24] All illegal, all doing no work. Federal
[00:51:27] law says you have to do over 51%. Craig,
[00:51:30] tell us about the FC SBA website.
[00:51:33] >> Yeah, it's uh it's https
[00:51:37] colon/archcertifications.sba.govadvanced
[00:51:49] question mark page equals one.
[00:51:53] Wow. Okay. Thank you for the tip.
[00:51:57] >> Thank you for the tip. Um, we are going
[00:51:59] to have Thomas Drake, NSA whistleblower
[00:52:02] on the program. We're going to do that
[00:52:04] in five minutes. We're going to reset
[00:52:06] the studio here. In the meantime, uh,
[00:52:08] we're going to hear a word from our from
[00:52:10] our sponsor as well as if you have not
[00:52:13] seen the extraordinary interaction
[00:52:14] between myself and Melain Cromwell where
[00:52:17] I take my wig off. We're going to play a
[00:52:19] little excerpt from that. We'll be right
[00:52:21] back in five minutes. Don't miss Thomas
[00:52:23] Drake. What an This is going to be
[00:52:25] probably the most incredible
[00:52:26] conversation uh with Thomas Drake. I I
[00:52:28] had dinner with him last night and one
[00:52:30] of the things that he said to me was we
[00:52:32] was talking about kind of the human
[00:52:34] condition and human nature uh to shake
[00:52:36] people awake to expose the the the the
[00:52:40] phoniness of our of our own humanity and
[00:52:44] to take a look inward at ourselves which
[00:52:48] is which I I hope that this will make
[00:52:50] you feel uncomfortable. Thomas Drake
[00:52:52] perhaps the most interesting man I've
[00:52:53] ever met as he understands more deeply
[00:52:57] than any man I've ever met. Uh the the
[00:53:00] benality of evil of ordinary people and
[00:53:03] and that means you. So I intend to make
[00:53:06] you feel uncomfortable. He blew the
[00:53:08] whistle on the NSA before it was before
[00:53:11] it was uh uh before Ed Snowden did his
[00:53:13] thing and he said they don't want to
[00:53:16] look in the mirror. People don't want to
[00:53:18] look in the mirror, so they must destroy
[00:53:20] the mirror itself. It's all fake. It's
[00:53:23] all an illusion. We're all going to die.
[00:53:26] You don't want to think that way, but it
[00:53:28] is in fact true. We live in a
[00:53:30] performative democracy. I'll be back in
[00:53:32] 5 minutes with Thomas Drake,
[00:53:33] whistleblower, with the NSA. This is
[00:53:37] James O'Keefe. You know me for exposing
[00:53:39] the truth [music] and holding the
[00:53:40] corrupt elite responsible and
[00:53:42] accountable. However, today I want to
[00:53:44] tell you about protecting your own
[00:53:46] freedom, your finances. Before you buy
[00:53:48] any gold or silver, hear this. We're
[00:53:50] going through [music] one of the biggest
[00:53:51] financial shifts of our lifetime. DD
[00:53:54] dollarization. Nations like China,
[00:53:56] Russia, and Saudi Arabia are pulling
[00:53:58] away from the US dollar. And that
[00:54:00] threatens your savings [music] and
[00:54:02] retirement security. Legendary investor
[00:54:04] Ray Dalio warns skyrocketing debt,
[00:54:07] relentless money printing, and a
[00:54:10] weakening dollar are all part of a
[00:54:12] dangerous cycle that could impact you.
[00:54:14] That's why more Americans [music] are
[00:54:16] turning to real assets like physical
[00:54:18] gold and silver. Gold just surged past
[00:54:20] $3,700
[00:54:22] per ounce, and momentum is building.
[00:54:24] I've partnered with veteranowned
[00:54:26] American Independence Gold to help you
[00:54:28] take action. Open a qualifying account
[00:54:30] today and get up to $10,000 in bonus
[00:54:33] gold and our free gold protection guide.
[00:54:36] And [music] here's the best part. A
[00:54:38] portion of every sale supports Tunnel to
[00:54:40] Towers and Wounded Warriors. Freedom
[00:54:43] isn't given, it's secured. [music] This
[00:54:45] is James O'Keefe. As always, this is not
[00:54:47] financial advice. Always check with your
[00:54:49] licensed financial adviser before you
[00:54:51] invest.
[00:54:57] This is James
[00:55:03] My name is James O'Keefe. I'm an
[00:55:06] investig I'm an investigative reporter.
[00:55:08] >> Sir, have them turn off your cameras.
[00:55:10] I'm going to get in the car and go.
[00:55:11] >> Okay. We're talking about hundreds of
[00:55:13] millions of dollars of abuse of taxpayer
[00:55:15] dollars. It would be unethical for me
[00:55:18] not to go undercover and expose this
[00:55:20] filth, this smut, this disgusting
[00:55:23] illegal behavior.
[00:55:25] >> And I agree with no no.
[00:55:28] It's about hundreds of millions of
[00:55:29] dollars of taxpayer cash that is being
[00:55:31] stolen from the American people.
[00:55:33] >> You're absolutely right.
[00:55:34] >> This is not about ratings, ma'am.
[00:55:35] >> You're absolutely right.
[00:55:36] >> And my question for you is, why didn't
[00:55:39] you bring up that this is illegal?
[00:55:52] My name is James O'Keeff.
[00:55:56] >> Hello.
[00:56:03] >> So with Meline is the Do we have the
[00:56:05] clips? Where are they?
[00:56:07] >> Yeah.
[00:56:08] >> Sit back and collect my percentage. Is
[00:56:09] that in that clip you sent me?
[00:56:12] >> Yeah. I see that that works.
[00:56:15] >> My percentage of your day through the
[00:56:17] >> They do the majority of it.
[00:56:19] >> So we we do about 20% of the
[00:56:22] >> We take off the wig kind of a thing.
[00:56:24] >> Yeah.
[00:56:24] >> Be a little discreet. Come on in. Bring
[00:56:26] it in a little bit.
[00:56:29] >> This is how we do it at OMG. We're
[00:56:31] undercover at the Epstein protest. We're
[00:56:34] in the depositions during the day in
[00:56:36] federal court with the FBI agents. And
[00:56:38] now we're going in disguise, changing
[00:56:41] pants in the back of parking lot. This
[00:56:43] is what This is a day in the life of
[00:56:46] James O'Keefe.
[00:56:51] Okay, let me see.
[00:56:54] Okay,
[00:57:01] wait. Way.
[00:57:04] >> Hello.
[00:57:06] >> Hi there.
[00:57:06] >> How are you? So, we have some news for
[00:57:08] you here. Okay. Okay.
[00:57:10] >> So, we are actually um we're actually
[00:57:13] investigative reporters.
[00:57:15] >> Get out.
[00:57:16] >> We're investigative reporters.
[00:57:17] >> Are you serious?
[00:57:18] >> And we've done an undercover
[00:57:19] investigation on ATI.
[00:57:21] >> Mhm.
[00:57:22] >> We're not actually here to buy catering
[00:57:25] from you.
[00:57:25] >> Okay.
[00:57:26] >> Um my name is James O'Keefe.
[00:57:29] >> I'm an invest
[00:57:30] >> I'm an investigative reporter and you
[00:57:32] you're on video,
[00:57:34] >> sir. have them turn off your cameras or
[00:57:36] I'm going to get in the car and go.
[00:57:37] >> Okay,
[00:57:44] now that we have the cameras rolling,
[00:57:45] I'd love to show you some of these this
[00:57:47] footage.
[00:57:48] >> So, we we do about 20% of the work.
[00:57:50] >> So, at 20% and the subcontractors do
[00:57:54] like 80% of the work.
[00:57:55] >> 80% of the work. I can say in my opinion
[00:57:58] that the contracts that I feel were
[00:58:00] signed felt like we weren't doing 51% of
[00:58:04] the work and I never
[00:58:05] >> What were you doing less than 51%
[00:58:07] >> in my opinion? Yeah.
[00:58:08] >> Well, 20 is a lot less than 51
[00:58:10] >> that that I felt like we I was saying
[00:58:12] that in a general context.
[00:58:14] >> This is juicy gossip. I love it.
[00:58:16] >> This is not
[00:58:20] 20% subcontract.
[00:58:24] That's all my opinion,
[00:58:25] >> right? I don't know if we want to share.
[00:58:27] They do all the work.
[00:58:28] >> No.
[00:58:29] >> Why were you whispering?
[00:58:30] >> Because it's illegal to do less than
[00:58:32] 51%. I'm affirming that we don't want
[00:58:36] people to know this cuz it's illegal.
[00:58:38] And you emphatically respond, "No, we
[00:58:40] don't want to share it." No.
[00:58:42] >> Oh, okay. What?
[00:58:43] >> You're whispering. Yeah. You don't want
[00:58:44] people to know this. Yeah.
[00:58:46] >> I would assume firmage wouldn't want
[00:58:47] people to know that if that in fact were
[00:58:49] the case.
[00:58:50] >> Was there some rules or something that
[00:58:51] you were telling me about you have to
[00:58:53] 51%
[00:58:55] >> 51%
[00:58:55] >> 51 on paper.
[00:58:57] >> Correct.
[00:58:57] >> Right.
[00:58:58] >> 51% on paper. Is that your opinion
[00:59:01] >> of of when you're doing um set aside?
[00:59:04] >> Correct.
[00:59:05] >> Uh yes. You have to be 51% during the
[00:59:07] work.
[00:59:08] >> Is that your opinion or is that a fact?
[00:59:09] >> No, that's a fact.
[00:59:10] >> Okay. Perfect.
[00:59:10] >> But in reality,
[00:59:12] >> right? Exactly.
[00:59:13] >> Exactly.
[00:59:14] >> Y as long as on paper.
[00:59:16] >> As long as it's on paper.
[00:59:17] >> 51%. We're good to go.
[00:59:19] >> You know. Exactly. You seem to
[00:59:22] acknowledge
[00:59:23] >> Mhm.
[00:59:23] >> that sometimes in reality is different
[00:59:27] than what's on paper.
[00:59:29] >> Okay.
[00:59:29] >> You seem to acknowledge that.
[00:59:31] >> I'm sorry.
[00:59:32] >> That's what you felt when I'm I'm
[00:59:33] quoting you.
[00:59:34] >> I'm showing you. Watch.
[00:59:36] >> Right.
[00:59:37] >> But you're saying, but in reality, what
[00:59:39] does that mean to me?
[00:59:40] >> As long as it's on paper,
[00:59:42] >> you're good to go.
[00:59:43] >> Because on paper it's 51%.
[00:59:46] >> But in reality, you had said 20%. So we
[00:59:50] we do about 20% of the work.
[00:59:52] >> So ATI do 20% and the subcontractor you
[00:59:55] do like 80% of the work.
[00:59:56] >> 80% of the work. Wow. I
[00:59:58] >> I feel like we were talking in general
[00:59:59] there. I don't know that I was speaking
[01:00:01] specifically for ATI.
[01:00:02] >> Mhm.
[01:00:03] >> But yes, on paper because it's a
[01:00:04] contract. If you have to be doing 50%
[01:00:07] 51% of the work
[01:00:09] >> for it to be to to be awarded a set
[01:00:11] aside,
[01:00:12] >> even though it's 20% here,
[01:00:14] >> do the majority of it.
[01:00:16] >> So we we do about 20% of the work. So
[01:00:19] >> yeah, that's my opinion.
[01:00:20] >> We you Yeah,
[01:00:21] >> this is fact. This is not gossip. That's
[01:00:24] my opinion.
[01:00:24] >> It's interesting how it conveniently
[01:00:26] becomes your opinion when it's illegal.
[01:00:28] >> Conveniently. Okay. No, because I was
[01:00:30] never involved in any contract major
[01:00:33] meetings that they had where contracts
[01:00:34] were already executed.
[01:00:36] >> So, so anyway, so are you familiar with
[01:00:38] the case of this Supreme Court case
[01:00:41] versus the United States falsely
[01:00:42] claiming compliance with disadvantages
[01:00:44] business enterprise requirements?
[01:00:45] Basically what it means is that this 51%
[01:00:47] thing is very serious and you know there
[01:00:49] could be an indictment here.
[01:00:51] >> Yeah.
[01:00:51] >> Are you aware that Fermage Crutchfield
[01:00:53] or ATI was doing any
[01:00:58] >> Okay, we're back. We're back live in
[01:01:02] studio. This is a live show. I'm here
[01:01:04] I'm joined by whistleblower Thomas
[01:01:07] Drake. Thomas Drake, uh, who blew the
[01:01:11] whistle on the National Security Agency,
[01:01:13] and this is a really special treat. Uh,
[01:01:15] usually we do these pre-recorded, but
[01:01:17] today we're doing it live. A two-hour
[01:01:19] long conversation with Thomas Drake. Ed
[01:01:22] Snowden, we all know who Edward Snowden
[01:01:24] is from 10 years ago, once said, "If
[01:01:27] there hadn't been a Thomas Drake, there
[01:01:29] could not have been
[01:01:31] an Edward Snowden." And before there was
[01:01:34] Edward Snowden, and there's the quote on
[01:01:35] the screen, there was Thomas Drake who
[01:01:38] the blew the whistle on the national
[01:01:40] security ay's surveillance programs.
[01:01:42] Even before Edward Snowden did, he's one
[01:01:45] of history's most legendary
[01:01:47] whistleblowers. He went to his
[01:01:49] superiors. He did it the way you ought
[01:01:51] to do it, the Department of Defense,
[01:01:53] Inspector General, and even
[01:01:55] Congressional Oversight Committees. And
[01:01:57] for doing that, he was charged under the
[01:01:59] Espionage Act of 1917. This was in the
[01:02:02] year 2010, year three years before Ed
[01:02:04] Snowden. And Drake's life was upended.
[01:02:08] They tried to destroy his life. His
[01:02:11] career ended. They took away his
[01:02:12] security clearance. His finances they
[01:02:15] tried to ruin. He spent a million
[01:02:16] dollars on lawyers. Today, in today's
[01:02:18] dollars, that's more like $2 million.
[01:02:20] And the case nearly sent him to prison
[01:02:22] until it collapsed in 2011. At the time,
[01:02:24] he went on 60 Minutes. Edward Snowden
[01:02:27] was inspired by Thomas Drake. In fact,
[01:02:30] you you saw the quote.
[01:02:32] But Drake says, and I'll ask him about
[01:02:34] this, that the government never was able
[01:02:37] to break him psychologically
[01:02:39] because of the inner strength that he
[01:02:41] developed starting as a child.
[01:02:45] What is most interesting about Thomas
[01:02:47] Drake and I had dinner with him last
[01:02:48] night is his take on human nature. The
[01:02:52] paradox of the human condition itself.
[01:02:55] His perspective on the benality of evil
[01:02:57] that is in fact inside of all of us and
[01:03:00] perhaps most uncomfortable for you the
[01:03:02] viewer is inside of you even though you
[01:03:05] may not want to admit it. Something
[01:03:07] that's inherent in our humanity. And I'm
[01:03:10] going to be talking with him about that.
[01:03:13] Thomas, thank you for being brave and
[01:03:15] being here with me here [snorts] in West
[01:03:19] Palm Beach. It's nice to have you here,
[01:03:20] sir.
[01:03:21] >> Yeah. Oh, thanks for having me. Thanks
[01:03:22] for inviting me on to your show.
[01:03:24] >> Um, I would first like to get your
[01:03:26] response to what you saw on the screen,
[01:03:28] those those subcontractors and the and
[01:03:31] the scandal. And I think yourself had
[01:03:33] you have some experience with this,
[01:03:35] being a federal employee and and
[01:03:36] witnessing it. Can you tell me your
[01:03:38] reaction to that?
[01:03:39] For me, it's just the continuing sad
[01:03:42] litany of the games that are played um
[01:03:45] with contractors
[01:03:47] and the relationship with the
[01:03:49] government. And this is all white collar
[01:03:53] activity, white collar gamesmanship.
[01:03:56] It's what can I finding ways in which I
[01:04:00] can actually enrich myself more than
[01:04:02] let's say normal. Um you can never make
[01:04:07] enough money. there's always more money
[01:04:08] to make and hey, you know, these this is
[01:04:11] a mechanism by which people started
[01:04:13] using it as a pass through or a cutout
[01:04:15] as some would call it uh to make even
[01:04:18] more money and taking advantage of what
[01:04:20] was probably originally
[01:04:22] a a valid program in terms of
[01:04:24] disadvantage or womenowned or
[01:04:26] minorityowned and now they're just using
[01:04:29] it to basically just, you know, rip
[01:04:32] people off. It's it's a racket. It
[01:04:34] really is a racket and it's just one of
[01:04:36] any number of rackets that exist in the
[01:04:38] contracting world if you're speaking
[01:04:40] just that part of the world within the
[01:04:42] federal government and I'll even extend
[01:04:44] it to state government.
[01:04:46] >> Um general contractor subcontractors
[01:04:49] uh you worked for booze allen Hamilton
[01:04:51] is that
[01:04:52] >> at one point in my uh time. Yes. Um got
[01:04:55] up to management level
[01:04:57] >> management level booze. That's where
[01:04:58] Snowden worked too. Ed Snowden.
[01:05:00] >> He did. Yes.
[01:05:00] >> Have you met Snowden?
[01:05:02] >> I have met him. Yes. you've met him and
[01:05:03] and he says that you inspired him to to
[01:05:06] do what what he did. And I read this
[01:05:08] book because I don't think you've
[01:05:10] written a book yet, but there's been
[01:05:12] books written about you.
[01:05:13] >> Yeah, a number of them or chapters uh or
[01:05:16] making direct references or extended
[01:05:19] passages about my case.
[01:05:21] >> For those of you just tuning in, we're
[01:05:22] talking to Thomas Drake, legend, one of
[01:05:24] the greatest whistleblowers in American
[01:05:25] history. You may not know the name, but
[01:05:28] there were two ways in this book written
[01:05:31] about you. you didn't write the book,
[01:05:32] but it was about you and N Snowden.
[01:05:34] There were two ways that they talked
[01:05:36] about blowing the whistle. One is to go
[01:05:37] the traditional route to go through
[01:05:40] Congress and and so forth and so on. And
[01:05:42] the other is to kind of be a civil
[01:05:43] disobedient and go to journalists.
[01:05:45] Snowden took the latter. You tried to do
[01:05:48] the right thing. Are those basically the
[01:05:50] only two ways one can blow the whistle
[01:05:53] or how does it work? Well, there are
[01:05:56] formal channels by which you can blow
[01:05:59] the whistle and know government
[01:06:01] wrongdoing, fraud, violations of the
[01:06:04] law.
[01:06:05] And those channels exist. They're
[01:06:08] actually well advertised even within the
[01:06:10] system. They have posters hanging on,
[01:06:12] you know, the walls as you're walking
[01:06:14] down the hall.
[01:06:15] >> At the NSA, they have those.
[01:06:16] >> Even at the NSA, yes.
[01:06:18] >> Wow. Uh, however, um, they're also
[01:06:22] exposure channels because obviously if
[01:06:24] you're blowing the whistle, especially
[01:06:26] on your own agency, they're not going to
[01:06:28] take too kindly to you sort of airing
[01:06:30] the dirty laundry even in secret.
[01:06:33] >> It's kind of just the human nature,
[01:06:34] isn't it? Just people don't want their
[01:06:36] ego bruised if you tell the truth. The
[01:06:39] the people that your superiors are not
[01:06:41] happy about that.
[01:06:41] >> Telling your truth is extremely
[01:06:43] dangerous.
[01:06:44] >> Telling the truth is dangerous,
[01:06:45] >> especially to power, especially abuse of
[01:06:47] power. abuse of power. But but I mean it
[01:06:50] is it does pre present kind of a a
[01:06:52] quagmire because we want to inspire
[01:06:55] people to come forward. We it's almost
[01:06:57] like we have to find a third way because
[01:07:00] the the way that you did it, you know, I
[01:07:02] mean, right now we have people in
[01:07:04] Washington that want me to come to them
[01:07:06] with all these people coming to me. And
[01:07:08] as I said to you last night, there's a
[01:07:09] there's a there's a little bit of a
[01:07:11] hesitation I have because I don't know
[01:07:14] if I fully trust the government. I
[01:07:17] [laughter] wouldn't.
[01:07:18] >> And I say that on live on the air in the
[01:07:22] spirit of uh honesty is the best policy,
[01:07:25] right? Even even though perhaps I
[01:07:27] shouldn't say it. Um I find that the
[01:07:30] powers that be often want to know what I
[01:07:32] know. It's almost like they want to know
[01:07:35] what I know to be true more than they
[01:07:37] want to know more they want to reform.
[01:07:40] In this realm,
[01:07:42] this kind of knowledge, especially, it's
[01:07:43] knowledge that a lot of people would
[01:07:45] prefer not to go public.
[01:07:48] >> Um, has a lot of power in itself.
[01:07:54] >> But there are a lot of people that
[01:07:57] benefit from this. Why would you want to
[01:07:59] upset the cart as it were? As long as
[01:08:02] everybody's making something off the
[01:08:05] scam, off the racket, off the particular
[01:08:08] contract vehicle that's used, then why
[01:08:12] blow the whistle? Everybody's getting
[01:08:15] something from it, just some more maybe
[01:08:17] getting a little bit more than others.
[01:08:18] >> It's a hundred billion dollar program,
[01:08:20] this program in particular. So, what
[01:08:22] strikes me is that everyone is
[01:08:24] benefiting from I mean I mean it's like
[01:08:25] trickle down economics. Congress,
[01:08:27] Congresswoman's wives, people in their
[01:08:29] mortgages, their kids private school
[01:08:31] educations. You can't take away 100.
[01:08:33] It's 5% of the US deficit off off of
[01:08:36] this uh uh uh AA.
[01:08:39] >> This is why it's very hard to break
[01:08:41] these
[01:08:42] systems because a lot of people are
[01:08:45] benefiting from it all the way down to
[01:08:47] the lowest level. even if you're making
[01:08:49] what you would call a reasonable salary
[01:08:51] at the bottom level. But the people that
[01:08:54] really get hurt ultimately although
[01:08:57] they're sort of the amorphous the
[01:08:59] amorphous mass is the American taxpayer
[01:09:02] or in this case if you're talking about
[01:09:04] ADAs what about the people that really
[01:09:06] are at the bottom of the quote unquote
[01:09:09] the totem pole right
[01:09:11] >> the actually people on the reservation
[01:09:13] don't get the dividends
[01:09:14] >> the community they'll right
[01:09:15] >> it's like animal farm George Orwell the
[01:09:17] pigs in the barn that they
[01:09:19] >> it's scraps it's it's crumbs
[01:09:21] >> crumbs you Uh the the name Benny in this
[01:09:24] book uh said uh this is one of the NSA 4
[01:09:27] plus one. Uh can you just tell the
[01:09:31] people what the NSA 4 plus1
[01:09:34] whistleblowing what that was?
[01:09:36] >> Yeah, we refer to ourselves as a gang
[01:09:38] sort of between ourselves. So that was
[01:09:40] Bill Benny who is one of the most
[01:09:42] celebrated even within NSA while he
[01:09:44] worked there as a crypto mathematician
[01:09:47] >> and then there was Ed Lumis who would
[01:09:48] actually build systems and deploy them.
[01:09:51] There was Kirk Weebi was like the
[01:09:53] business manager. Um, and then there was
[01:09:55] uh Diane Ror who was actually had the
[01:09:58] oversight responsibility as the lead she
[01:10:02] was the Republican staffer but on the
[01:10:04] per part of the permanent staff with the
[01:10:06] House Select Committee on intelligence
[01:10:08] permanent select committee.
[01:10:10] >> Well, Bill Benny says it's all run by
[01:10:13] money. And that's something I I told you
[01:10:16] last night. I it took me I'm 41. And it
[01:10:19] took me like 40 years to figure that
[01:10:21] out. And I came I I came to that
[01:10:23] conclusion when I did made the movie
[01:10:24] line in the sand about the cartel. I
[01:10:26] just found it was all about money. Do do
[01:10:28] you agree with that statement? It's
[01:10:30] about money.
[01:10:32] >> Eisen actually warned the nation about
[01:10:33] this in his farewells address which at
[01:10:35] the time was hardly even noted but it's
[01:10:37] become quite uh famous in terms of what
[01:10:40] he said about the military-industrial
[01:10:41] complex. He knew what he kind of
[01:10:44] unleashed in the 1950s
[01:10:46] >> and his concern was that it would end up
[01:10:49] being a a controlling mechanism in
[01:10:51] government. It would be a corrupting
[01:10:52] mechanism in government and he was
[01:10:55] basically in his own way was blowing the
[01:10:57] whistle on himself and his own eight
[01:11:00] years his eight years in office as the
[01:11:02] president of the United States because
[01:11:04] he saw what was starting to already
[01:11:06] happen in the early 60s.
[01:11:10] >> Um and remember guaranteed income. I
[01:11:12] mean, this is the thing. This sort of it
[01:11:13] sort of even upsets what you'd call a
[01:11:15] traditional free enterprise/c capitalist
[01:11:17] system where now you're getting
[01:11:19] guaranteed basically handouts from the
[01:11:22] government and again you just get to
[01:11:24] pass it all around. So the incentive in
[01:11:27] this case is simply to make more and
[01:11:28] more money. In fact, it gets so in my
[01:11:31] own experience it can even get to the
[01:11:32] point where it doesn't really matter
[01:11:33] what you deliver. All you do is you just
[01:11:36] it's performative. It's it's it becomes
[01:11:38] an art form. You just end up showing
[01:11:41] best effort and that can that's that's
[01:11:44] like blazing saddles the movie.
[01:11:45] >> You mean as long as the contractor
[01:11:47] >> the contractor because remember the
[01:11:49] government is increasingly relying on
[01:11:52] contractors to do work or to produce and
[01:11:56] develop things that are supposed to
[01:11:58] provide for the common defense. I mean
[01:11:59] that's one of the you know two principal
[01:12:01] responsibilities of government in the
[01:12:03] preamble of the constitution. Promote
[01:12:05] the general welfare. We sort of forget
[01:12:06] about that but also provide for the
[01:12:08] common defense. In this case, the common
[01:12:10] defense has had to do with the common
[01:12:11] interest. It's like self-interest. We're
[01:12:13] just going to milk milk the system for
[01:12:16] as I remember sitting in a meeting when
[01:12:17] I was at Booze Allen first level. I got
[01:12:19] up the first level management. They
[01:12:22] brought us into this room. So, we're all
[01:12:23] new we're all newly been newly appointed
[01:12:27] as managers or promoted managers. He
[01:12:29] says, "Hey, you know, we'll sell this."
[01:12:32] and they, you know, use a couple of
[01:12:34] swear words standing by. It's willing to
[01:12:35] pay, you know, so if you sell it to one
[01:12:37] part of the government, you know, just
[01:12:39] re repackage
[01:12:41] it and sell it to another part of the
[01:12:43] government for an even higher price.
[01:12:47] >> It It seems like
[01:12:50] I've got so much to talk to you about.
[01:12:51] And for those just tuning in, again,
[01:12:53] we're doing a live television hit here.
[01:12:55] So, we are talking to Thomas Drake who
[01:12:57] blew the whistle on the National
[01:12:59] Security Agency. You think what you do
[01:13:02] is tough? Blowing the whistle on 8A pass
[01:13:04] through schemes. This guy went to war,
[01:13:07] not by his own valition, but he didn't
[01:13:09] think he was going to war. He thought he
[01:13:10] was going to do the right thing with the
[01:13:12] National Security Agency in Fort me,
[01:13:14] Maryland. If you think you have issues,
[01:13:17] and this guy's here is still alive to
[01:13:19] tell the tale. It seems like
[01:13:22] it's just like we're fighting. I think
[01:13:23] the bottom line up front is it seems
[01:13:25] like we're fighting against naked
[01:13:27] self-interest.
[01:13:28] That seems to be one of the things that
[01:13:31] you're against just the idea of human
[01:13:33] nature itself. Can you talk about that?
[01:13:35] >> The extraordinarily naked self-interest.
[01:13:37] >> Yeah, talk about that.
[01:13:39] >> Right. Because you basically get up in
[01:13:41] the morning and say, "What? How can I
[01:13:44] acquire more? How can I get more? How
[01:13:46] can I get one over on somebody else?"
[01:13:49] And hey, that's part of the game. If you
[01:13:51] know, if I get to play in it and I win,
[01:13:52] then there's a huge payoff.
[01:13:54] >> So, you're part that's part it's it is a
[01:13:57] form of gambling. in part, but this case
[01:13:59] you're actually using taxpayer money to
[01:14:01] do so.
[01:14:02] >> You're But you were not willing to play
[01:14:04] the game.
[01:14:04] >> I couldn't play the game. I I there's
[01:14:07] there's right and wrong. This is where
[01:14:09] you get into sort of the the morality of
[01:14:11] it all, the ethics of it. I mean, we're
[01:14:14] talking billions and billions of dollars
[01:14:16] being being sent every year to the n
[01:14:19] national security establishment of which
[01:14:21] national security agency is part of it.
[01:14:23] You would think, especially when you're
[01:14:25] a secret organization, there'd be even
[01:14:26] higher level accountab account
[01:14:28] accountability as to what are you
[01:14:30] getting for the money. I could not
[01:14:32] remain silent when it came to billions
[01:14:34] and billions and fraud, waste, and
[01:14:35] abuse. I certainly couldn't remain
[01:14:37] silent in terms of the abuse of of the
[01:14:40] fourth amendment in terms of
[01:14:43] >> surveillance amendment are are in your
[01:14:45] your position, you've said that that
[01:14:47] those are the most important ones. If
[01:14:48] you go back to the very basis for the
[01:14:50] American Revolution, the thing that
[01:14:51] actually makes us American, I would
[01:14:53] argue is encapsulated in the first and
[01:14:56] fourth amendment.
[01:14:57] >> Why is why do you believe that to be
[01:14:58] just the American founding is so
[01:15:01] >> it's cornerstone in terms of remember
[01:15:03] all the usurppations that were
[01:15:05] identified in the declaration of
[01:15:06] independence against King George III.
[01:15:09] >> It was fundamental. You you couldn't
[01:15:10] speak out. You couldn't freely publish.
[01:15:14] And if they came uh one of the officers
[01:15:16] of of the crown could show up with a
[01:15:18] piece of paper and literally take away
[01:15:19] your effects, your papers or even your
[01:15:21] person just with a piece of paper. You
[01:15:24] had no due process. There were was no
[01:15:27] protection against that.
[01:15:28] >> It was raw power dominating you as a
[01:15:31] colonial.
[01:15:32] >> And and you and I both have this in
[01:15:34] common. We've both been raided by the
[01:15:36] feds. And uh in in your case, they had
[01:15:40] the guns drawn. I think your son did
[01:15:42] your son answer the door. They had guns.
[01:15:44] They didn't actually draw them, but they
[01:15:45] were ready to bash the door down if they
[01:15:47] hadn't been answered in the next few
[01:15:49] seconds. Yes.
[01:15:50] >> And you had you had went to the the the
[01:15:52] Baltimore Sun newspaper in the year
[01:15:55] 2006.
[01:15:56] >> Well, ultimately, see, this is key. I
[01:15:58] went through every channel that existed.
[01:16:00] >> Mhm.
[01:16:01] >> Terms of the formal disclosure channels,
[01:16:05] I started with my own supervisor who
[01:16:06] happened to be the number three at NSA,
[01:16:09] the signals intelligence director. I
[01:16:11] went to the inspector general. They had
[01:16:13] their own investigation internally, but
[01:16:15] they're beholden to the top deck, the
[01:16:17] the director and the deputy directors. I
[01:16:18] didn't go anywhere.
[01:16:19] >> It's kind of a pardon me for
[01:16:20] interjecting. It's kind of a paradox
[01:16:21] that you have these whistleblower
[01:16:23] channels, but ultimately this is the I
[01:16:25] guess there's a separation of powers.
[01:16:27] There's Congress, then there's the
[01:16:29] executive branch. But ultimately, these
[01:16:32] people report to someone up there,
[01:16:33] right? So, but continue.
[01:16:35] >> But even in Congress, I went I went to
[01:16:37] both congressional committees. Which
[01:16:39] which committees did you go to?
[01:16:40] >> Both the Senate the permanent select
[01:16:42] committee intelligence called the [ __ ]
[01:16:43] for short and the house permanent select
[01:16:45] committee intelligence
[01:16:46] >> about 20 years ago 2006 2007
[01:16:48] >> this was in that 2000 well actually even
[01:16:50] before that but when I say I went to
[01:16:52] there I actually went under a statute
[01:16:55] that is supposed to pro protect you as
[01:16:58] it was a for formal channel called the
[01:17:00] intelligence community community
[01:17:01] whistleblower protection act.
[01:17:04] >> It was an extension of the inspector
[01:17:06] general act. It allowed me at that time,
[01:17:08] they've modified it since. I could
[01:17:10] literally go directly to the committee
[01:17:12] cuz they had oversight because of all
[01:17:15] the abuses of power during the 1970s
[01:17:17] that came out and all in all those
[01:17:19] hearings, Church, Pike,
[01:17:21] >> Bell Abzug, Rockefeller Commission.
[01:17:24] >> It we're we're walking a fine line here
[01:17:26] because so many people watching this
[01:17:28] program are on the inside and they're on
[01:17:31] the they're on the precipice of doing
[01:17:33] the thing. And I'm we're going to talk
[01:17:35] for a couple hours about your story and
[01:17:38] I'm trying to walk a fine line by
[01:17:39] telling the truth, but also trying to
[01:17:41] inspire people. I think the world's
[01:17:43] changed a little bit since you did what
[01:17:44] you did. This was like under the Bush
[01:17:46] administration. Instagram didn't exist.
[01:17:49] Twitter didn't exist.
[01:17:51] >> The media was different. Like the
[01:17:52] Baltimore Sun, I mean, newspapers don't
[01:17:54] even exist anymore. So things are kind
[01:17:57] of changing a little bit. But let's go
[01:17:59] back to that that time period 2004,
[01:18:02] 2005, 2006, 2007. Um, you go to the
[01:18:06] congressional subcommittees. What
[01:18:08] exactly? We know Ed Snowden what he did.
[01:18:10] What were you blowing the whistle on at
[01:18:12] the NSA at the time?
[01:18:13] >> Three primary areas,
[01:18:16] the 9/11 intelligence failures and
[01:18:18] subsequent cover up at NSA, which was
[01:18:20] quite extraordinary. In fact, they kept
[01:18:23] a whole lot from all the formal
[01:18:24] investigations, both the congressional
[01:18:26] investigations and there was two of them
[01:18:28] that I was a material witness on.
[01:18:30] Thousands of pages of documents were
[01:18:32] given to the investigators. I was I was
[01:18:35] even I had to do depositions where
[01:18:38] you're giving oral testimony as well.
[01:18:40] Mhm.
[01:18:41] >> Um I also was part of a DODIG
[01:18:45] investigation involving the largest
[01:18:47] basically at the time it was by far the
[01:18:50] largest contracted program NSA called
[01:18:52] Trailblazer.
[01:18:53] >> Trailblazer
[01:18:54] >> and there was requirements for
[01:18:55] Trailblazer but most all those
[01:18:57] requirements had been satisfied by uh in
[01:18:59] part by another program called
[01:19:03] >> Thin Thread.
[01:19:04] >> Thin Thread. These sound like out of a
[01:19:06] Jason Bourne movie by the way.
[01:19:08] >> [laughter]
[01:19:09] >> There is there is that element all there
[01:19:12] is there is the sort of a Jason Bourne
[01:19:14] element to all this without all the
[01:19:16] violence
[01:19:16] >> and and briefly what is trailblazer and
[01:19:18] what is thin thread
[01:19:19] >> well
[01:19:21] let's go back just a little bit and then
[01:19:23] accelerate forward so the internet age
[01:19:26] explodes in the 90s extraordinary period
[01:19:29] extraordinary but it was the now it's
[01:19:31] really the digital age had existed for a
[01:19:33] while but now this the and the internet
[01:19:35] had existed for a while but now there's
[01:19:37] this rapid transition from the analog
[01:19:39] era of the information age to the
[01:19:40] digital age, the digital era. Massive
[01:19:43] amounts of data because it's far easier
[01:19:46] to generate data in the digital space
[01:19:48] than it was in the analog space. NSA
[01:19:51] knew and this is right after the cold
[01:19:53] war. They actually identified the
[01:19:56] challenge they faced with the digital
[01:19:58] age. How do you one, it's one thing to
[01:20:01] collect all this, but how do you make
[01:20:03] sense of it? all the methods they had
[01:20:05] used and had been quite successful at
[01:20:09] back in the 50s and 60s and and well
[01:20:12] into the 70s and 80s were coming up
[01:20:14] short.
[01:20:16] They knew they had a problem. Well, at
[01:20:19] NSA because you're it's much more of an
[01:20:22] engineering organization in terms, hey,
[01:20:23] we got a problem, let's solve it.
[01:20:25] Classic, you know, necessity is the
[01:20:27] mother of invention. That that famous
[01:20:29] phrase in terms of American industry
[01:20:32] going back to the industrial age. So
[01:20:34] sure enough, small teams solved the big
[01:20:37] what we refer to as the big data
[01:20:39] problem. That was thin thread. It was
[01:20:41] ready to go well prior to 911.
[01:20:43] >> Mhm.
[01:20:45] >> But it only cost about when it was
[01:20:47] developed a little over $3 million. But
[01:20:50] in the year 2000 2001, there were some
[01:20:53] preliminaries just to make a long story
[01:20:56] short. They awarded a multibillion
[01:20:58] dollar program
[01:21:00] >> to SEIC and a bunch of subprimes
[01:21:05] almost $4 billion or the original
[01:21:07] program prior to 911.
[01:21:11] That was their answer. And instead of
[01:21:13] relying on the the ingenuity and the
[01:21:17] best of American inventiveness, they
[01:21:18] said, "You know what? We're going to buy
[01:21:20] the solution. We're not going to make
[01:21:22] it." But the kicker for me, which is
[01:21:25] still to this day surreal, that solution
[01:21:28] had already been made and was was being
[01:21:31] rapidly improved. But they decide we're
[01:21:35] going to go out to industry. Kind of
[01:21:37] like we're going to do in part what was
[01:21:40] done during World War II with the
[01:21:41] Manhattan project,
[01:21:43] >> but we're just going to spend a whole
[01:21:44] boatload of money on some contractors
[01:21:47] and they'll figure it out. Now you're
[01:21:49] the contractor and you you can imagine,
[01:21:52] you know, your eyes get really big
[01:21:53] because you're seeing massive amounts of
[01:21:55] money that you're going to be able to
[01:21:57] live off of live off of for the next
[01:21:59] several years.
[01:22:01] >> And Trailblazer,
[01:22:02] >> Trail, they never developed anything.
[01:22:04] Nothing was ever put in the field. And
[01:22:07] they had shut down. This was right
[01:22:08] before 911. Uh although Trailblazers
[01:22:11] went ongoing for a number of years
[01:22:12] because they remember after 911, the
[01:22:15] Congress basically comes to NSA and
[01:22:16] says, "How much money do you need?" as
[01:22:18] if more money was going to be the
[01:22:19] answer. In most cases, it's never about
[01:22:22] more money.
[01:22:23] >> What is it about?
[01:22:24] >> It's about solving the problem. Why? Why
[01:22:27] do you need But if you want to just make
[01:22:29] money, yeah, we'll find ways to spend
[01:22:31] money. So, you're incentivized not to
[01:22:33] solve the problem.
[01:22:33] >> Incentives are not aligned.
[01:22:34] >> No, you're you're incentivized to keep
[01:22:36] the money flowing.
[01:22:38] >> Right. So at some point you decide I'm
[01:22:42] going to go to the government channels
[01:22:45] to to tell me through your mind state at
[01:22:47] the time I'm going to go
[01:22:50] to whistleblower avenues
[01:22:53] >> all that existed starting with
[01:22:55] >> NSA itself
[01:22:56] >> the number three that I reported to
[01:22:59] >> that was my hiring manager
[01:23:00] >> your hiring manager
[01:23:01] >> she was the signals intelligence
[01:23:03] director at the time
[01:23:04] >> and what was her reaction
[01:23:06] >> to your disclosures
[01:23:07] >> she didn't want to hear about
[01:23:09] And then what did you do?
[01:23:10] >> Well, I so I could have just sort of
[01:23:13] okay, no nothing's going to happen. You
[01:23:15] know, I can just sit back and ride out
[01:23:18] the rest of my time at NSA. Um get a
[01:23:21] government pension and ride off into the
[01:23:24] sunset, right? Even after 911.
[01:23:26] >> And what year was this exactly?
[01:23:28] >> This was the fall of This is the fall of
[01:23:30] 2001.
[01:23:31] >> This is the fall of 2001.
[01:23:32] >> Fall of 2001. First day on the job was
[01:23:34] 911.
[01:23:35] >> Your first day at work was 911.
[01:23:37] >> Yeah. After I went through all the
[01:23:38] processing, everything else, the first
[01:23:39] day reporting to my new duty station was
[01:23:42] literally o dark 30. It was actually
[01:23:45] 0500 in the morning, Zulu time, right?
[01:23:49] >> It was 0500 24hour clock stranger than
[01:23:52] fiction.
[01:23:53] >> Yeah. Well, it there's a whole lot of
[01:23:55] truth here that it may sound and
[01:23:57] probably is stranger than fiction. It'd
[01:23:59] be difficult to write the Hollywood
[01:24:00] script.
[01:24:01] >> You can't Yeah, they would laugh at
[01:24:02] Netflix if you wrote this down. I'm in a
[01:24:04] meeting and the two towers are hit and
[01:24:06] then the Pentagon, you know, shortly
[01:24:08] there. It's like I remember sitting I
[01:24:11] was it was in the legislative affairs
[01:24:12] office. I remember standing up. So my I
[01:24:15] my chair was up against the door that
[01:24:17] goes into the outer hall.
[01:24:20] >> The director of the signals intelligence
[01:24:22] directorate was actually giving a
[01:24:24] briefing to a tag team. It's a technical
[01:24:26] advisory group for the [ __ ] the Senate
[01:24:28] select committee. They were really had
[01:24:31] concerns about what the country what was
[01:24:35] national security going to receive for
[01:24:37] all this money that's being spent on
[01:24:38] trailblazer and NSA was in fact
[01:24:41] challenged to explain what would the
[01:24:44] country receive for all that money. So
[01:24:46] once again there was this meeting that
[01:24:48] was set up. Well I remember when the
[01:24:51] executive assistant came in and said the
[01:24:52] second tower had been hit. I stood up
[01:24:54] and said America's under attack. Mhm.
[01:24:57] >> The next four months are a blur for me.
[01:24:59] >> A blur
[01:25:00] >> until I was with family in New Orleans
[01:25:04] celebrating Marty GR. That was the first
[01:25:06] time I felt somewhat normal again as a
[01:25:09] human being.
[01:25:10] >> What was that four months like for you?
[01:25:11] Just working.
[01:25:12] >> Unbelievably compressed.
[01:25:14] >> Just lots of work.
[01:25:16] >> Staggering amounts tasking. You're
[01:25:18] trying to figure out because you knew
[01:25:20] this was more it was not just an
[01:25:21] everyday crisis. This was going to be a
[01:25:23] multi-year crisis. And of course, all
[01:25:26] kinds of pronouncements were made by
[01:25:27] Bush and then Cheney. Cheney going s
[01:25:30] going to the dark side. Kofer Black
[01:25:31] saying we're going to we're going to
[01:25:33] take the gloves off.
[01:25:34] >> What did you do for the NSA?
[01:25:36] >> I was hired in literally by title
[01:25:39] originally. I had multiple positions was
[01:25:40] senior change leader.
[01:25:42] >> So I'm in the operation side of NSA.
[01:25:44] This is the active side. This is the
[01:25:46] side of NSA that goes out, collects
[01:25:47] signals, makes sense of them.
[01:25:49] >> So what were your duties? My duties was
[01:25:52] that actually I had a small leadership
[01:25:53] and communications team that reported
[01:25:56] directly to the signals intelligence
[01:25:58] director.
[01:26:00] So we were responsible for basically
[01:26:02] setting up communication systems to keep
[01:26:04] everybody informed. We were we were
[01:26:07] advising as well in terms of how to
[01:26:10] respond to to what happened on 911. We
[01:26:14] were having to deal with questions that
[01:26:16] were already starting to come from
[01:26:17] Congress. We were also so hey what else
[01:26:20] is there in the fight? What else can we
[01:26:22] put into the fight to deal with
[01:26:23] terrorism? We didn't know remember right
[01:26:26] after 911 they didn't know if there's
[01:26:27] other cells that were in operation.
[01:26:30] People forget. I mean this it's hard for
[01:26:31] me now as you were going back you know
[01:26:33] this is 20 it's 25th anniversary is next
[01:26:36] year.
[01:26:36] >> It's hard to believe.
[01:26:38] >> So those four months were a blur for
[01:26:40] you. You go to your supervisor. She
[01:26:43] shrugs her shoulders and that
[01:26:45] >> within just days of 911. The reason The
[01:26:47] reason this is critical
[01:26:51] 911 was a failure to keep people out of
[01:26:54] harm's way. 911 was a failure systemic
[01:26:56] failure to protect the nation. But the
[01:27:00] system had been blinking red for years.
[01:27:02] Even George Tennis sent out a memo three
[01:27:04] years earlier saying the system is
[01:27:06] blinking red. There was all kinds of
[01:27:08] indications all kind but this is post
[01:27:11] cold war. NSA was still trying to sort
[01:27:14] out like who's the who's the next
[01:27:15] threat? Who's the enemy? This is clearly
[01:27:18] a non-state actor, transnational,
[01:27:21] which I was very familiar with because I
[01:27:23] had worked in a previous assignment as a
[01:27:26] commissioned officer in the Navy down at
[01:27:28] the Pentagon in the uh in the alert
[01:27:30] center, the National Military Joint
[01:27:31] Intelligence Center, sitting on the
[01:27:33] terrorism desk in 1993 when they tried
[01:27:36] to drop the World Trade Center towers
[01:27:37] the first time.
[01:27:40] Six people died.
[01:27:42] >> And I remember we're on the desk. It was
[01:27:44] a small team.
[01:27:46] We're we're in the alert center. We were
[01:27:48] sending out reports based on very
[01:27:50] advanced analysis. The these I said
[01:27:52] these they mean business. Al-Qaeda and
[01:27:55] company means business.
[01:27:58] They're not going to rest. They're going
[01:28:00] to come back and they want to make it
[01:28:02] spectacular. We warned I remember
[01:28:04] they're going to come back. We even made
[01:28:06] reference to airplanes. They'll use
[01:28:08] everything possible.
[01:28:11] So I'm sitting there literally on shift
[01:28:15] and the J2 who was a one of the general
[01:28:18] he was a general but he was considered
[01:28:19] the chief military intelligence officer.
[01:28:22] He reported directly to the joint chiefs
[01:28:23] of staff.
[01:28:25] He comes down cuz he's been reading the
[01:28:27] reports that we're sending out from the
[01:28:29] terrorism desk. He's sitting there
[01:28:31] talking to the duty off the senior duty
[01:28:33] officer. He says, "Yeah, I'm reading all
[01:28:35] your reports." Shaking his head at the
[01:28:37] same time. And it says, "Who cares about
[01:28:39] some rag head spouting off fatwas in the
[01:28:42] desert?"
[01:28:42] >> What year was that?
[01:28:44] >> 1993.
[01:28:47] >> So about 8 years before 911.
[01:28:49] >> This is after they dropped tried to drop
[01:28:52] the trade center towers the first time.
[01:28:54] >> Imagine if you had that on video.
[01:28:56] Imagine if you had that on video.
[01:28:57] >> You can imagine what I was thinking on
[01:29:01] 911 when everything unfolded.
[01:29:02] >> You you were feeling what what uh
[01:29:04] Jeffrey Wan described as kind of
[01:29:06] righteous indignation. Would you would
[01:29:07] you characterize that?
[01:29:08] >> That's a fair statement.
[01:29:09] >> Righteous indignation.
[01:29:10] >> But see the warnings. See the
[01:29:12] frustration you probably even feel see
[01:29:14] in my body right now. I was classically
[01:29:17] trained as an intelligence analyst. I
[01:29:20] was a crypto linguist in the air force
[01:29:21] for a number of years. I flew on
[01:29:23] reconnaissance platforms like the RC135.
[01:29:25] I I was I was a mission crew supervisor
[01:29:28] on electronic warfare mission called
[01:29:30] Compass Call. That was on an EC130H. It
[01:29:33] was actually when I came back from
[01:29:34] overseas in England. I was then I was uh
[01:29:38] stationed at in Arizona at Davis Moth
[01:29:40] and Air Force Base. We were classically
[01:29:42] trained.
[01:29:44] You're we had extraordinary powers
[01:29:47] during the cold war in terms of
[01:29:49] collection of intelligence and making
[01:29:52] sense of it.
[01:29:53] We were listening in on any number of
[01:29:56] countries and across any number of
[01:29:57] networks and and picking up signals from
[01:30:00] all kinds of different devices, pushto
[01:30:04] talk radios, you name it, right across
[01:30:06] the radio, the the electromagnetic
[01:30:08] spectrum, high-end radars, all that.
[01:30:12] An amazing system that was set up in
[01:30:14] those decades after World War II. Why?
[01:30:18] We would never be surprised again. Allah
[01:30:21] 7 December 1941 with the Japanese attack
[01:30:24] on Pearl Harbor.
[01:30:26] >> We will never again experience a
[01:30:28] surprise electronically.
[01:30:32] So we were trained what what are the
[01:30:34] norms? What's standard behavior
[01:30:36] operating behavior of adversary nations
[01:30:39] or nations you have an interest in?
[01:30:43] And then anything it's different you
[01:30:44] report on it. And depending on the
[01:30:46] level, even it could get to the point
[01:30:48] where if it was serious enough, it would
[01:30:49] have to be on the president's desk
[01:30:51] within 10 minutes. He was at the top of
[01:30:53] what was referred to when I was in the
[01:30:56] business, the national command
[01:30:57] authorities. There was sort of a
[01:30:58] euphemism for the president and sort of
[01:31:01] the immediate joint chiefs of staff and
[01:31:03] and the others, national security
[01:31:04] council, etc. the the combatant
[01:31:07] commanders, etc. are all in the loop. I
[01:31:10] was classically trained here. We failed.
[01:31:13] We literally failed. But that's not how
[01:31:15] that's not how the leadership took it.
[01:31:17] >> That's not how the leadership.
[01:31:18] >> So we're walking around. This is right
[01:31:20] after 911. The workforce is utterly
[01:31:23] crushed. We could refer to people that
[01:31:24] did the real work as the workforce.
[01:31:26] Utterly they knew we they knew
[01:31:28] >> morale was low.
[01:31:30] >> Incredibly low because it's like oh my
[01:31:31] god
[01:31:32] >> workforce of the NSA. You mean
[01:31:33] >> workforce of NSA.
[01:31:34] >> So you just let's just go to that. We've
[01:31:36] got so much to talk about. Let's just go
[01:31:38] to that moment. You go to the
[01:31:39] supervisor. Then what happens? Who do
[01:31:41] you go to next?
[01:31:42] >> Oh. So I said, "What are we doing? We're
[01:31:45] violating the Fourth Amendment." Cuz I
[01:31:47] was also on the effort where you go to
[01:31:48] the FBI, the affidavit for
[01:31:50] >> How are you violating the Fourth
[01:31:52] Amendment?
[01:31:52] >> Because they decided to implement a
[01:31:54] program right after 911 in which they
[01:31:55] completely bypassed even the the very
[01:31:58] act that was put in place in 1978
[01:32:00] because of all the abuses in the 70s,
[01:32:02] >> the surveillance,
[01:32:03] >> the foreign intelligence surveillance
[01:32:05] act, FISA, which had been modified, by
[01:32:08] the way, contrary to what General
[01:32:09] Michael v. Hayden said later modified
[01:32:12] five times between 1978 and the 10th of
[01:32:15] September 2001 to keep up with the
[01:32:19] changes in technology.
[01:32:20] >> Who did you go to next after your
[01:32:22] supervis?
[01:32:23] >> Well, because I in I kept going back to
[01:32:26] the director of the signals intelligence
[01:32:29] directorate. She says, "You got to go
[01:32:31] talk if you got an issue with this, go
[01:32:33] talk to general counsel."
[01:32:34] >> So you talked to the general counsel.
[01:32:36] So, this program, which at the time had
[01:32:40] a had a a name that was classified, it's
[01:32:43] not classified anymore, and they've
[01:32:44] changed the name. It was called Stellar
[01:32:45] Wind. Stellar Wind was a way off the
[01:32:48] books super deep state secret. It It was
[01:32:52] one of the deepest state secrets.
[01:32:54] >> Was it in like Dick Cheney safe or was
[01:32:55] this the one in Cheney safe or was this
[01:32:57] >> Well, that was the authorization
[01:32:59] basically the presidential finding
[01:33:01] signed by Bush basically with Cheney
[01:33:04] hovering over him.
[01:33:05] >> Okay. Okay. So, this is a secret.
[01:33:06] >> They wouldn't even give a copy to NSA.
[01:33:08] That's how sensitive this program was.
[01:33:11] They knew they're violating the law.
[01:33:12] They knew that. And you were matter. You
[01:33:14] were witness to this.
[01:33:15] >> I was witness this for what I found out.
[01:33:18] I discovered all this. But the program
[01:33:20] was so classified. The vast majority of
[01:33:23] NSA would have never even known about.
[01:33:24] It was in a super super specialized
[01:33:28] compartment. The name, the program
[01:33:30] itself was its own compartment.
[01:33:32] >> Who did you go to next?
[01:33:33] >> The general counsel. And then what
[01:33:34] happened? What did they
[01:33:35] >> And this this was my moment of truth.
[01:33:36] This was the first week in October
[01:33:38] >> of 2001.
[01:33:40] >> 2001.
[01:33:40] >> And what did they say?
[01:33:41] >> And I didn't know at the time about the
[01:33:43] secret authorization letter, the
[01:33:45] presidential finding that Addington kept
[01:33:48] in his safe.
[01:33:49] >> Didn't know that.
[01:33:50] >> That who had in the safe?
[01:33:51] >> David Addington chief basically the he
[01:33:54] was like the council to Cheney.
[01:33:56] >> The the lawyer.
[01:33:57] >> Very interesting character in all this.
[01:33:58] He was a lawyer. Yeah. So behind the
[01:34:00] lawyers here.
[01:34:02] >> [laughter]
[01:34:02] >> So what what did the general counsel do
[01:34:04] when
[01:34:04] >> Well, he was one of the few people read
[01:34:06] in to the program. They call it read in.
[01:34:08] He was the one that was aware of the
[01:34:10] program.
[01:34:11] >> And he said, "We are the executive agent
[01:34:15] for
[01:34:17] the White House. It's all been all
[01:34:19] approved."
[01:34:20] >> NSA is an executive branch agency.
[01:34:22] >> No, ex NSA is the executive agent for
[01:34:25] the program approved by the White House.
[01:34:28] It's all legal. Don't ask any more
[01:34:31] questions.
[01:34:31] >> It's kind of like the Nixon Frost
[01:34:33] interview. Exactly. When the the guy
[01:34:35] goes uh Richard Nixon says it's legal,
[01:34:38] the president can what did he was the
[01:34:39] quote from Nixon?
[01:34:40] >> If the president does it, it's legal.
[01:34:42] >> If the president, it's not illegal. If
[01:34:43] the president does it, it's not illegal.
[01:34:45] >> And there are legitimate debates even
[01:34:46] right now about what to what how much
[01:34:48] power the the executive has
[01:34:50] >> and there is dis
[01:34:51] >> extraordinary power especially when it
[01:34:53] comes to executive privilege. What do
[01:34:55] you think the Constitution What What is
[01:34:56] your opinion about I don't want to get
[01:34:58] too far off track, but what do you
[01:34:59] think?
[01:34:59] >> Arsal two powers.
[01:35:00] >> Yes. What is your opinion?
[01:35:01] >> They're vast, including
[01:35:02] commander-in-chief, but they're not
[01:35:04] unlimited.
[01:35:04] >> They're not unlimited.
[01:35:05] >> They're not unlimited.
[01:35:06] >> Nixon was saying they're unlimited.
[01:35:07] >> Remember the I'm going to say this
[01:35:12] even with the current president,
[01:35:14] and this all came out basically of the
[01:35:16] 70s. Even a president is not above the
[01:35:18] law. Remember, the president resigned
[01:35:20] his office. Nixon literally resigned his
[01:35:22] office in 1974.
[01:35:27] The president himself takes a special
[01:35:30] oath. Preserve, protect, and defend the
[01:35:33] Constitution. There's no one else in the
[01:35:36] executive branch that takes that special
[01:35:38] oath. Preserve, protect, and defend. I
[01:35:42] had taken an oath, and this is critical
[01:35:44] to understanding why I could not remain
[01:35:47] silent. Even in the fall of 2001, I took
[01:35:51] an oath five times in my government
[01:35:52] career. twice in the Air Force, once at
[01:35:56] CIA, once at in the Navy, and then again
[01:35:59] at NSA as a senior executive.
[01:36:02] That oath is to the Constitution, to a
[01:36:05] piece of paper. It's the foundational
[01:36:07] basis for how we govern ourselves in
[01:36:09] America.
[01:36:10] >> But everyone else took the oath also.
[01:36:12] >> Sure did. And the president a special
[01:36:13] oath at the inauguration.
[01:36:16] >> But your NSA colleagues took the oath.
[01:36:18] Your general counsel took the oath. Your
[01:36:20] supervisor took the oath.
[01:36:21] >> Same oath. Support and defend the
[01:36:22] Constitution.
[01:36:23] >> Is that what your oath was? Support and
[01:36:25] defend it.
[01:36:26] >> Yes.
[01:36:26] >> At the NSA, that's what you said.
[01:36:27] >> That's a piece of paper. It's not to
[01:36:29] support and defend NSA. It's not to
[01:36:30] support and defend the president. It's
[01:36:32] not to support and defend the violation
[01:36:34] of the Constitution. It's not to support
[01:36:36] and defend covering up
[01:36:40] especially wrong with wrong spectral.
[01:36:46] I mean, remember, you look at the
[01:36:47] preamble of the Constitution. This is
[01:36:49] very for me. People say, "Oh, you're an
[01:36:50] IV." I was actually told I was actually
[01:36:52] literally told this on the inside. Tom,
[01:36:55] the Constitution is a quaint It's a
[01:36:57] quaint piece of paper.
[01:36:59] >> Who said that? Who said that to you? But
[01:37:01] who you can't say who said that?
[01:37:04] >> One of your people at the NSA said that
[01:37:05] to you.
[01:37:05] >> Quaint piece of paper. We We Exiggent
[01:37:09] conditions apply. This is the lawyer in
[01:37:11] the office of of the general counsel's
[01:37:13] office. Exigent conditions apply.
[01:37:16] Emergency conditions apply.
[01:37:18] >> All animals all animals are equal. But
[01:37:21] some animals are more equal than others.
[01:37:22] >> Well, oh boy. Now you're you're quoting
[01:37:25] one of my all-time favorite as much as
[01:37:27] it's dystopian. But George R.
[01:37:29] >> But it's getting to the heart of the the
[01:37:30] the uh the uh double think or
[01:37:34] >> 9/11 ended up in essence being I was
[01:37:37] going to say a positive flag, not a
[01:37:39] false flag to engage in activity that
[01:37:42] was entirely prohibited or constrained
[01:37:45] by the constitution. But remember what
[01:37:47] Jefferson said about the constitution.
[01:37:48] the the chains of the constitution bind
[01:37:50] us. Remember what Madison said about
[01:37:52] ambition meeting ambition. That was part
[01:37:54] of the checks and balances. What what
[01:37:55] interests me most Thomas
[01:37:58] about you and I think what interests all
[01:38:00] the viewers and I don't I'm not looking
[01:38:02] at the comments is that but you actually
[01:38:04] did something about it and I and I and I
[01:38:07] everyone believe not everyone the
[01:38:10] majority of Americans I mean for those
[01:38:12] who are not ignorant for those who have
[01:38:14] a brain probably mostly agree with what
[01:38:16] you're saying but people participate one
[01:38:20] of the things you said to me um last
[01:38:22] night what was the phrase performative
[01:38:24] democracy
[01:38:25] And we're going to get to this idea of a
[01:38:27] performative democracy. But people
[01:38:29] participate in the phony fake fagazy
[01:38:33] deal. You take an oath. It's just a
[01:38:35] piece of paper. But what's what
[01:38:37] interesting about you is and and this is
[01:38:39] something that Ed Snowden said, quote,
[01:38:42] "We had a guy, Thomas Drake, this is
[01:38:44] from Edward Snowden. We had a guy Drake
[01:38:46] who who did absolutely everything right.
[01:38:48] He placed his faith in the system. He
[01:38:51] saw the warrantless wiretapping of
[01:38:52] hundreds of millions of Americans while
[01:38:54] at the NSA. He saw corruption in
[01:38:56] procurement process in standards
[01:38:58] adoptions and things like that. He
[01:39:00] brought it to the inspector general. He
[01:39:01] brought it to Congress. And rather than
[01:39:04] protecting him, they actively retaliated
[01:39:06] against him in the most public
[01:39:08] aggressive way to send a message to
[01:39:10] everybody that things were different.
[01:39:13] Now,
[01:39:14] that's what Ed Snowden said about you.
[01:39:19] And they they they went after you in the
[01:39:22] most aggressive way. Before we get to
[01:39:24] the performative democracy, how did they
[01:39:26] go after you in the most aggressive way?
[01:39:29] >> Well, all these investigations unfold
[01:39:31] over a number of years, but they the
[01:39:33] reprisal, the retaliation against me
[01:39:35] started happening quite early on. I they
[01:39:37] really I was a marked I was marked early
[01:39:40] on. I was I was already considered a
[01:39:42] troublemaker. I was supposed to like
[01:39:44] just play the game. Don't r
[01:39:47] from the outside. There's about a dozen
[01:39:49] of us hired in from the outside prior to
[01:39:52] 911 to quote unquote stir up shake shake
[01:39:55] up the gene pool as they would say.
[01:39:58] If you're an outsider, especially with a
[01:40:01] highly rigidified, I'll use a fancy
[01:40:04] word, sclerotic institution, the last
[01:40:07] thing you want is somebody being hired
[01:40:09] in from the outside or a dozen or so
[01:40:11] being hired in to quote unquote change
[01:40:13] things
[01:40:15] >> because you you might make us look bad
[01:40:17] psychologically.
[01:40:19] So, you protect yourself. The cultural
[01:40:21] white blood cells kick in to get rid of
[01:40:25] the threat. We were threats. They did
[01:40:29] everything possible to prevent us from
[01:40:30] doing our jobs. But because we were
[01:40:33] hired in at a senior level, it was, you
[01:40:35] know, other than being increasingly
[01:40:38] isolating you, it was very difficult
[01:40:40] even at that level to do your job. They
[01:40:42] just wanted to make sure you would get
[01:40:44] so frustrated you would leave. And most
[01:40:47] actually did
[01:40:49] >> early on left. and you be I I remember
[01:40:52] people on their exit interview privately
[01:40:54] would tell me it won't let me do my job.
[01:40:58] >> So, so
[01:41:01] I here's the trigger though.
[01:41:05] 2005 there's an article published in the
[01:41:07] New York Times
[01:41:08] >> Mike Ryzen
[01:41:09] >> James Ryzen Eric Lickblau revealing for
[01:41:12] the first time after four plus years the
[01:41:14] existence of what was then referred to
[01:41:17] as a warrantless wiretapping program
[01:41:19] which was just the tip of the iceberg.
[01:41:21] The government went applic.
[01:41:24] Two weeks later, guess what? They
[01:41:26] initiate the DOJ, Department of Justice,
[01:41:29] a massive national security leak
[01:41:32] criminal investigation.
[01:41:35] I knew when that article, even though I
[01:41:37] was never a source for the New York
[01:41:38] Times, as much as the government later,
[01:41:40] >> somebody else was a source.
[01:41:41] >> Oh, they had upwards of a dozen people.
[01:41:44] >> Were those people in the NSA?
[01:41:46] >> I don't know that, but I certainly was
[01:41:48] not one of them.
[01:41:49] >> I suspect that. How How else
[01:41:51] >> there were others? Well, there was
[01:41:52] others that would have known about the
[01:41:54] program or at least indications of it if
[01:41:57] they worked within the Department of
[01:41:59] Justice or in the secret court. There's
[01:42:02] a secret FISA court and there's actually
[01:42:04] an appeals court.
[01:42:04] >> Maybe it were those people,
[01:42:06] >> right? Or FBI.
[01:42:08] >> Okay.
[01:42:10] >> People were talking to the New York
[01:42:11] Times that were not you,
[01:42:12] >> but it was not me. That's right. and and
[01:42:14] but at some point you eventually you do
[01:42:16] reach out to a Baltimore Sun reporter
[01:42:18] eventually in May
[01:42:19] >> that was but see doing that that's the
[01:42:22] third rail for me to go to the press I
[01:42:25] was well aware what happened to Daniel
[01:42:26] Ellsberg with the Pentagon papers
[01:42:28] >> for those who are not familiar with
[01:42:28] Daniel Ellsberg famous Pentagon
[01:42:30] whistleblower uh the Pentagon papers it
[01:42:33] went to the Supreme Court and he also
[01:42:36] was a kind of civil disobedient
[01:42:38] >> uh very much so and he was actually part
[01:42:40] of the Pentagon papers study this
[01:42:42] multi-year study to and I'll just
[01:42:44] shorten what the study reflected
[01:42:46] contrary to all public pronouncements
[01:42:48] the bright and shining lie of our
[01:42:49] involvement in Vietnam going all the way
[01:42:51] back to when we took over from the
[01:42:52] French.
[01:42:54] So I went I that's when I actually
[01:42:57] touched the third rail. Now
[01:42:58] interestingly enough it was not
[01:43:00] uncontrary to what Scott Py actually
[01:43:02] asked me in 60 Minutes many years later.
[01:43:04] He said well isn't it like against the
[01:43:06] law to go to the press? Actually it's
[01:43:07] not.
[01:43:10] But I was in violation of an
[01:43:12] administrative
[01:43:14] policy which was having unauthorized
[01:43:17] contact with a reporter.
[01:43:20] >> Right. And and that's when Dick Cheney
[01:43:22] reportedly ordered that you be that the
[01:43:24] leak or whoever they are be found and
[01:43:26] punched
[01:43:26] >> based on the New York Times article
[01:43:28] >> based on that rise in
[01:43:29] >> find and fry whoever burn them.
[01:43:33] >> So you said quote I this is at the time
[01:43:35] I figured I would lose my job. Drake
[01:43:37] said, quote, "But I could live with
[01:43:39] that. This was about something much
[01:43:40] bigger than me. I served in the military
[01:43:43] and knew that if I had to, I'd put my
[01:43:45] life on the line for a greater cause of
[01:43:47] liberty and freedom." But again, most
[01:43:49] people don't think that way. That's not
[01:43:53] how most people operate. And you're
[01:43:55] still here. I mean, you're not in some
[01:43:57] hole. I mean,
[01:43:59] >> I've had long car I
[01:44:01] >> You fared better than Julian Assange. I
[01:44:03] suppose you're you're physically here.
[01:44:05] They didn't kill you. You're still
[01:44:07] alive. I mean, you went through absolute
[01:44:08] hell. We'll get to that in a second.
[01:44:10] >> I did.
[01:44:11] >> I had long conversations with Ellburg.
[01:44:14] >> Okay.
[01:44:14] >> He I considered him my whistleblower
[01:44:16] father. We became close friends.
[01:44:18] >> When did you reach out? When did you
[01:44:19] guys
[01:44:20] >> I was introduced to him uh right after I
[01:44:22] was indicted by the government in uh
[01:44:24] April of 2010. It was in May. In May of
[01:44:27] 2010 is when I first met Ellsworth. But
[01:44:29] I was so I was remember I grew up my
[01:44:32] civic awakening was the 1970s. I
[01:44:34] remember sitting in soul studies class
[01:44:36] watching all this unfold on the news and
[01:44:39] in the p newspapers at the time
[01:44:42] >> you're awakening but most people who
[01:44:44] lived again I hear you but what is it
[01:44:47] about you that
[01:44:49] >> there was a bigger world out there I I
[01:44:51] was on I probably because of things that
[01:44:53] happened to me even when I was younger.
[01:44:56] What does this all mean? Why why do we
[01:44:58] even exist? Why is there life? Why were
[01:45:01] we born? Why do we die? It was like this
[01:45:03] quest for the truth was just
[01:45:06] >> Is that something that God gave you? Is
[01:45:08] that something that your environment
[01:45:09] gave you? Is that something your parents
[01:45:11] gave you? Where does that come from?
[01:45:14] >> Well, within you.
[01:45:14] >> Well, I think it began consciously. The
[01:45:17] first event was a near-death experience
[01:45:19] at four years of age.
[01:45:20] >> A near-death. And you've had a couple of
[01:45:22] near-death experiences.
[01:45:23] >> Several.
[01:45:24] >> What was the first one?
[01:45:26] >> Four years old.
[01:45:27] >> Yeah.
[01:45:28] >> Uh I was living in Austin. My father
[01:45:29] just recently retired. career Air Force
[01:45:32] officer. He was a World War II veteran,
[01:45:34] soul survivor. He used to fly missions
[01:45:37] for what was a precursor to the CIA, the
[01:45:39] OSS.
[01:45:40] >> Your father was with the OSS.
[01:45:42] >> Yes.
[01:45:43] 41 missions.
[01:45:45] >> Wow.
[01:45:46] >> They were in southern Europe. Plane got
[01:45:48] hit, caught fire. He was the only man
[01:45:51] that got out of the plane. Only one that
[01:45:54] survived.
[01:45:55] >> He was survivors guilt, as they say.
[01:45:57] behind the lines for 6 months, lost 50
[01:45:59] lbs until he hooked up with the British
[01:46:01] underground and then they flew him out.
[01:46:03] It forever altered the rest of his life.
[01:46:05] >> Your father had PTSD?
[01:46:07] >> Severe.
[01:46:09] >> At four years old, what was your
[01:46:10] near-death experience?
[01:46:12] >> So, I was a very healthy child from the
[01:46:14] time I was born in 1957.
[01:46:18] Early 1962, I come down with a
[01:46:22] debilitating fever.
[01:46:24] Long story short,
[01:46:26] I end up being rushed to the hospital.
[01:46:29] This all this is what I remember. I'm on
[01:46:32] fire. It literally felt like why? My
[01:46:35] temperature was 106 plus approaching
[01:46:38] 107.
[01:46:40] So, anybody that's in the medical
[01:46:42] profession, nurse, technician, doctor
[01:46:45] knows if you have a body temperature
[01:46:47] over 106,
[01:46:49] that's not good at all. things start
[01:46:53] breaking down at that level.
[01:46:56] So, what did they do? They packed me in
[01:46:59] ice. I didn't Yeah, I felt a little
[01:47:02] cooler, but it certainly wasn't cold.
[01:47:06] And I can only say it this way. And I
[01:47:07] realize what I'm about to share with
[01:47:09] you, and I realize we're live, but I'm
[01:47:11] just going to share it.
[01:47:13] This is nonlinear because you can't
[01:47:15] really explain this. This I had an
[01:47:17] experience. What I remember is I'm
[01:47:19] hovering above my body. There's
[01:47:21] basically this silver cord is the only
[01:47:23] way I can describe it hooking me kind of
[01:47:26] in a soul state to my physical body. And
[01:47:29] when I look above me, there's this
[01:47:31] bright light. It's like this it's almost
[01:47:33] like a a white port hole. It's like a
[01:47:36] like a white hole that's that's uh like
[01:47:39] concentric circles.
[01:47:41] >> Mhm.
[01:47:41] >> And then I look down, there's all these
[01:47:43] people
[01:47:45] the doctors, right, are around me
[01:47:48] sitting in this bucket of ice. And then
[01:47:50] next thing I know, I'm back in my body.
[01:47:53] >> At four years old, you
[01:47:54] >> at four years old, I was I was dying.
[01:47:57] >> You experienced you
[01:47:59] >> I was in that state where you're about
[01:48:01] to disappear.
[01:48:02] >> And did you wrest that means you
[01:48:04] wrestled with your own mortality?
[01:48:05] >> Yes.
[01:48:06] >> And in wrestling in your with your own
[01:48:08] mortality, you
[01:48:09] >> why am I still here?
[01:48:10] >> You started to ask the questions, why am
[01:48:12] I here?
[01:48:12] >> So I went to the I'll just say the ends
[01:48:15] of the earth and the heavens to seek out
[01:48:18] the Lord.
[01:48:20] So you you're a Christian.
[01:48:22] >> Yes, I am.
[01:48:23] >> Um there are a lot of people that are
[01:48:26] Christians, but many of them perhaps
[01:48:27] don't wrestle with their own mortality
[01:48:29] in the in that way or they it was that
[01:48:31] experience that you went through that
[01:48:32] made you wrest over the years with a lot
[01:48:36] of hiccups
[01:48:37] to accepting Jesus Christ as my personal
[01:48:40] savior. that there is a creator god and
[01:48:42] that there is a master plan that's it's
[01:48:45] working out uh here on earth a
[01:48:48] privileged planet.
[01:48:49] >> Um and you had other near-death
[01:48:52] experiences.
[01:48:54] >> Well, I guess one one wasn't enough.
[01:48:56] >> We'll get to those later on in the
[01:48:58] conversation, but I also want to read
[01:48:59] this is public information. It's in a
[01:49:01] book
[01:49:01] >> and I know this will probably make us
[01:49:03] feel uncomfortable, but this is this is
[01:49:05] James O'Keefe Price is my life show. So,
[01:49:07] we're going to go there. Quote,
[01:49:09] "Nevertheless, Drake said that the
[01:49:12] government never broke him
[01:49:14] psychologically." What was the German
[01:49:15] word, by the way?
[01:49:16] >> Oh.
[01:49:17] >> Uh, that describes um,
[01:49:18] >> so I didn't give you a little bit of my
[01:49:20] history. Zerets.
[01:49:21] >> Well, but before we get into history,
[01:49:23] Zerzets means what?
[01:49:24] >> Zerzets is in German. It's actually a
[01:49:26] term that means chemical decomposition.
[01:49:31] >> Chemical decomposition.
[01:49:32] >> Chemical decomposition
[01:49:33] >> to to break someone.
[01:49:35] >> Break something. Well, if you do it
[01:49:36] psychologically to a being, this this is
[01:49:38] the stazzi, the secret police, the state
[01:49:40] police, the sword and his shield of the
[01:49:43] DDR, which is the East Germany at the
[01:49:45] time, which is this weird mix of sort of
[01:49:48] communism and fascism in one, but they
[01:49:51] were they were a police state. The
[01:49:54] Stazzi were the sword and the shield of
[01:49:56] the state.
[01:49:58] They would routinely torture dissident
[01:50:00] or those who fell out of favor with the
[01:50:03] state, but they realized you can only
[01:50:05] keep pounding up on somebody for so long
[01:50:07] because you're not going to get anything
[01:50:09] valuable from them. So what they would
[01:50:11] resort to is psychological
[01:50:14] torture
[01:50:15] >> in order to break you.
[01:50:16] >> To break you, to decompose you, to
[01:50:19] >> deose your not your physically but your
[01:50:22] your will, your your
[01:50:23] >> fragment your very being. fragment
[01:50:26] fragment your being.
[01:50:28] >> Am Durkheim talked about there's a word
[01:50:31] it's it's the word that describes this
[01:50:33] is anomi. It's a process by which you
[01:50:36] are fully separated from yourself.
[01:50:39] >> Do you think that the powers that be
[01:50:41] tried to do this to you?
[01:50:43] >> Yes. Even though they wouldn't have used
[01:50:44] those terms, but yes. And
[01:50:46] >> I'm well aware of that.
[01:50:47] >> And you're saying today that they were
[01:50:48] not successful.
[01:50:49] >> They weren't. I wasn't going to let them
[01:50:51] break me no matter what. How did you
[01:50:53] >> Well, they're not going to break.
[01:50:55] Remember, I'm I'm here by the grace of
[01:50:57] God. Okay? My faith is is unbreakable
[01:51:01] when it when it comes to the creator.
[01:51:03] There is no way at the deepest level of
[01:51:05] myself that they would ever be able to
[01:51:08] take that away from me as a human being
[01:51:11] as child.
[01:51:12] >> But that's what most people watching
[01:51:13] actually fear. They they do break.
[01:51:17] >> Most do. I'm a well I'm all too aware of
[01:51:19] that in terms of history. And is the
[01:51:21] reason you didn't Well, let me let me
[01:51:24] read something to you because we got it
[01:51:25] says,
[01:51:26] >> well, remember, but you also have to
[01:51:27] remember if you go back to the fall of
[01:51:30] 2001. People, you should have said you
[01:51:33] shouldn't have said anything. You didn't
[01:51:34] make the decision. You weren't the
[01:51:35] president. You weren't Cheney. You
[01:51:37] weren't Hayden. You weren't even the
[01:51:38] general counsel. Yes, you're a senior
[01:51:40] executive. Yes, you have
[01:51:41] responsibilities. But they weren't your
[01:51:42] responsibilities. So, why speak out or
[01:51:44] speak up? You know why? Because if I had
[01:51:47] remained silent, guess what? I would now
[01:51:49] be participating actively with the
[01:51:51] knowledge that I was participating in
[01:51:54] this sub aversion of the Constitution of
[01:51:57] the United States.
[01:51:59] >> And most people do that wittingly.
[01:52:02] >> Well, I had people that explained to me
[01:52:03] why they came to me this years after
[01:52:06] everything happened, right? They said,
[01:52:08] "I agree with you, Tom. I agree with you
[01:52:10] about the corruption and the malfeasants
[01:52:13] and all that, right? And even the
[01:52:15] warrantless surveillance program. I
[01:52:18] can't do what you did. Why? The this
[01:52:20] this individual was in tears.
[01:52:21] >> Can't do what you did is what they said.
[01:52:23] >> I can't do what you did. And he was in
[01:52:25] tears when he shared this with me. I am
[01:52:27] married. I have a mortgage. I have I
[01:52:30] have a retirement. I've got kids going
[01:52:32] to college. I cannot jeopardize that any
[01:52:36] of that.
[01:52:37] >> What was your response?
[01:52:38] >> What are your
[01:52:39] >> I understood. I understand. I don't very
[01:52:41] few people.
[01:52:42] >> You don't really fight them. You just
[01:52:43] say, "I hear you."
[01:52:44] >> No, I if anything, I'm sympathetic.
[01:52:47] You're sympathetic.
[01:52:47] >> Yes.
[01:52:48] >> But you too had a wife, didn't you? You
[01:52:50] too.
[01:52:51] >> I had 12-y old.
[01:52:52] >> You had a 12-year-old. Did you have a
[01:52:53] house, a mortgage, rent payment?
[01:52:55] >> Had all that.
[01:52:55] >> So, you had all the things that they
[01:52:56] had.
[01:52:57] >> Yes.
[01:52:58] >> I even had my retirement
[01:53:00] on on the line.
[01:53:02] >> Your pension,
[01:53:03] >> career, all that.
[01:53:03] >> And did they take your pension from you?
[01:53:05] >> I never I was five and a half years from
[01:53:07] a full pension.
[01:53:08] >> So, you never got your pension?
[01:53:09] >> No.
[01:53:10] >> Here's what you wrote. Here's what was
[01:53:11] written about you. Quote, Drake said
[01:53:14] this is a journalist named Mark
[01:53:16] Herzgard.
[01:53:17] >> He interviewed ext me extensively for
[01:53:19] the book
[01:53:19] >> and is this would you say this is a fair
[01:53:21] book about you?
[01:53:22] >> Yes.
[01:53:23] >> Drake said that the government never
[01:53:25] broke him psychologically
[01:53:27] perhaps in part because of the inner
[01:53:30] strength that Drake had developed as a
[01:53:32] child. Drake did not volunteer the
[01:53:35] insight, but when I asked, he confirmed
[01:53:37] that part of his emotional resilience
[01:53:39] and his sense of justice stemmed from
[01:53:41] growing up as the son of a violent
[01:53:43] father. Quote, "My dad used to beat me
[01:53:46] up," Drake acknowledged. "But he would
[01:53:48] never get the essence of me." "But he
[01:53:50] would never get to the essence of me. No
[01:53:52] matter how badly I was abused, I had to
[01:53:54] hide myself at times in gym class."
[01:53:57] Quote, "The worst part of it was in
[01:53:59] fifth, sixth, and seventh grade. I would
[01:54:00] never take my clothes off in front of
[01:54:02] the other kids." Yep.
[01:54:03] >> The belt was his favorite. What I did
[01:54:05] have was my mind and my spirit. As I
[01:54:08] read more history and pondered it, I saw
[01:54:10] that it wasn't just me who was treated
[01:54:12] unjustly. Oo, it wasn't just me that was
[01:54:16] treated unjustly. And I had to ask, why
[01:54:18] do we treat each other this way? That
[01:54:21] was a fundamental question I had to
[01:54:23] wrestle with, including wrestling the
[01:54:25] same question with God himself.
[01:54:29] Why?
[01:54:30] Why? Why do we why are we so ugly to
[01:54:34] each other?
[01:54:34] >> I I was became so acutely sensitive to
[01:54:37] abuse of power and injustice literally
[01:54:40] from inside my own family. But then I
[01:54:42] saw it happening in school as I got
[01:54:44] older in high school. Kids are getting
[01:54:46] picked on, kids that were being bullied.
[01:54:48] I would because I looked normal at that
[01:54:51] point. I had basically grown out of a
[01:54:53] lot of the illnesses I had had for for
[01:54:55] the decade earlier. I looked normal,
[01:54:58] right? Normal, right? There was nothing
[01:55:01] about me that would, you know, I didn't
[01:55:03] have four eyes, you know, I didn't have
[01:55:05] anything that would call attention to
[01:55:07] myself. Oh, yeah. Okay. So, I wore wing
[01:55:09] tip shoes
[01:55:11] like my father did in high school. Um,
[01:55:14] but I would stand up for the ones that
[01:55:17] couldn't stand up or speak for
[01:55:18] themselves. That's where it started. It
[01:55:20] >> seems as a confluence of things happened
[01:55:21] to you. You had this near-death
[01:55:23] experience. You had your father, who was
[01:55:25] a veteran and a combat veteran who had
[01:55:27] PTSD. You used to beat the crap out of
[01:55:29] me.
[01:55:30] >> And you asked yourself, this led you to
[01:55:34] understand your own mortality and
[01:55:37] >> cuz I was always living on the edge. I
[01:55:38] didn't tell you how sick I was. I would
[01:55:40] spend weeks away from school. They would
[01:55:43] have to send homework to my house or my
[01:55:47] brother my brother who was a year a year
[01:55:49] younger. Uh uh he would actually bring
[01:55:52] work home to me so I could finish. I'd
[01:55:54] be bedridden for weeks at a time.
[01:55:57] I had this humidifier because I could
[01:55:59] hardly breathe. Part of the problem is I
[01:56:01] developed all kinds of respiratory
[01:56:02] ailments. It
[01:56:03] >> it was a confluence of events for you.
[01:56:05] You were a mathematical genius, a
[01:56:07] military man with a family, a violent
[01:56:10] father. But your father also you guys
[01:56:11] grew towards the end of your life. He he
[01:56:14] saw what happened to you. Your the
[01:56:15] father that beat you, the World War II
[01:56:17] veteran, the OSS c the pilot who
[01:56:19] survived had survivors guilt. this guy
[01:56:22] when this happened to you when the when
[01:56:24] the feds raided your home when they
[01:56:26] indicted you your father what was his
[01:56:28] view of things
[01:56:29] >> he was having a hard time dealing with
[01:56:30] it cuz why is that
[01:56:32] >> well I had reconciled with him years
[01:56:34] earlier I I there was I accepted I
[01:56:38] accepted you never forget I forgave my
[01:56:40] father I'll say it that way you forgave
[01:56:42] him
[01:56:42] >> I forgave my father I couldn't remember
[01:56:45] if I hold on to
[01:56:47] >> the abuse guess what happens
[01:56:50] not healthy.
[01:56:51] >> That's right. Not at all. So I years
[01:56:56] earlier I had forgiven him
[01:56:58] >> if
[01:56:59] >> so I I was now a golden child. Remember
[01:57:01] I've been in the military. I had served
[01:57:03] faithfully for you know we're talking
[01:57:05] military plus my Navy time as a as a
[01:57:08] commissioned officer was approaching 15
[01:57:10] years. Now I'm a senior executive in the
[01:57:12] government.
[01:57:14] Um and he couldn't understand why are
[01:57:16] they going after his son. He wrote a
[01:57:18] letter to to then the congressperson for
[01:57:21] his district. He he was living in a
[01:57:23] retirement home in San Antonio. And you
[01:57:26] know what the response was? Not in my
[01:57:28] jurisdiction. He didn't want to do
[01:57:30] anything to do with it. The problem was
[01:57:31] I've been charged under the Espage Act.
[01:57:33] We're going to get to that. I've been
[01:57:34] charged on the Espionage Act,
[01:57:36] >> which is ridiculous.
[01:57:37] >> Well, but so was Ellburg. He was the
[01:57:40] first American, non-spy American charged
[01:57:43] for quote unquote having gone to the
[01:57:45] press. It's just the paradox of the
[01:57:47] whole dynamic is that you're trying to
[01:57:50] follow the oath and the in the country
[01:57:52] that you love, the American flag is
[01:57:54] sitting behind you and I and I relate to
[01:57:55] this because they raided me. I'm a
[01:57:57] journalist and they raided you and
[01:57:59] you're a guy who's against the the
[01:58:00] warrantless searches and they charge you
[01:58:03] with the one thing that hurts more than
[01:58:06] anything else, which is to accuse you of
[01:58:09] espionage against your own country. I
[01:58:11] was literally they were asserting that I
[01:58:14] had betrayed my own country. I was a
[01:58:16] Benedict Arnold and not I was I was a
[01:58:18] Ben Ar cuz I was an insider threat.
[01:58:21] >> That's the worst thing that could poss
[01:58:27] >> it wasn't just damage. It wasn't just
[01:58:29] serious damage. It was exceptionally
[01:58:30] grave damage. There was no higher if you
[01:58:32] go into this into the executive orders
[01:58:35] that govern all that. It was the highest
[01:58:38] form of damage. In fact, at one point
[01:58:41] they even said that I would have the
[01:58:42] blood of American soldiers on my hands.
[01:58:45] >> This is the worst possible thing that
[01:58:48] can happen. If you're just tuning in, we
[01:58:50] are live with the legendary NSA
[01:58:53] whistleblower, Thomas Drake. Edward
[01:58:55] Snowden said, quote, "If there hadn't
[01:58:57] been a Thomas Drake, there could never
[01:58:59] have been an Edward Snowden." This is a
[01:59:01] guy who's a pioneer who went through the
[01:59:04] worst type of hell you could possibly
[01:59:06] imagine and who's still alive to tell
[01:59:09] the tale. And I am talking to him about
[01:59:12] how and why he is the way that he is to
[01:59:16] hopefully inspire all of you. Um when we
[01:59:19] come back after one or two minutes, we
[01:59:22] do understand that our journalism is
[01:59:24] expensive. It cost a lot of money. the
[01:59:27] investigative reporting that we've done,
[01:59:29] particularly on the ADA program, took us
[01:59:30] six months. So, um, you're going to hear
[01:59:32] from one of our sponsors in a second.
[01:59:34] Uh, but when we come back, this is even
[01:59:37] more damning. In retrospect, the
[01:59:39] whistleblowing experiences of Drake and
[01:59:40] Snowden were different in these two
[01:59:42] respects. Unlike Edward Snowden, Drake
[01:59:44] did not have the same impact on public
[01:59:47] awareness. So, he went through all this
[01:59:48] hell. It brought him to the edge of
[01:59:50] financial and personal ruin. He lo
[01:59:51] almost lost his house, millions of
[01:59:54] dollars in fees, almost lost his wife.
[01:59:56] They separated but later reconciled. And
[01:59:58] yet Drake has no regrets. We'll be right
[02:00:02] back in a couple minutes. This is James
[02:00:06] O'Keefe. You know me for exposing the
[02:00:08] truth and holding the corrupt [music]
[02:00:09] elite responsible and accountable.
[02:00:12] However, today I want to tell you about
[02:00:14] protecting your own freedom, your
[02:00:16] finances. Before you buy any gold or
[02:00:18] silver, hear this. We're going through
[02:00:20] one of the biggest financial shifts of
[02:00:21] our lifetime. DD dollarization. Nations
[02:00:24] like China, Russia, and Saudi Arabia are
[02:00:27] pulling away from US dollars, and that
[02:00:29] threatens your savings and retirement
[02:00:31] security. Legendary investor Ray Dalio
[02:00:34] warns skyrocketing debt, relentless
[02:00:37] money printing, and a weakening dollar
[02:00:40] are all part of a dangerous cycle that
[02:00:42] could impact you. That's why more
[02:00:44] Americans are turning to real assets
[02:00:46] like physical gold and silver. Gold just
[02:00:48] surged past
[02:00:49] >> [music]
[02:00:49] >> $3,700
[02:00:51] per ounce, and momentum is building.
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[02:01:09] to Towers and Wounded Warriors. Freedom
[02:01:12] isn't given, it's secured. [music] This
[02:01:14] is James O'Keefe. As always, this is not
[02:01:16] financial advice. Always check with your
[02:01:18] licensed financial adviser before you
[02:01:20] invest.
[02:01:26] We're standing up to the powers that
[02:01:27] tried to discredit us, silence us,
[02:01:29] [music] smear us, raid us, and throw us
[02:01:32] in jail.
[02:01:34] They've awakened a sleeping giant.
[02:01:36] [music]
[02:01:36] We're building a movement of
[02:01:38] transparency and accountability in both
[02:01:40] the public and private sectors. [music]
[02:01:42] Because we run from nothing, we hide
[02:01:44] from nothing. And when you join and get
[02:01:47] your full access pass, you fuel a
[02:01:50] movement for truth. You, we
[02:01:54] are the media. Now,
[02:02:02] this is James O'Keefe. You know me for
[02:02:04] exposing the truth and holding the
[02:02:05] corrupt elite responsible and
[02:02:08] accountable. However, today I want to
[02:02:10] tell you about protecting your own
[02:02:11] freedom, your finances. Before you buy
[02:02:14] any gold or silver, hear this. We're
[02:02:16] going through one of the biggest
[02:02:17] financial shifts of our lifetime. Dd
[02:02:19] dollarization. Nations like China,
[02:02:22] Russia, and Saudi Arabia are pulling
[02:02:24] away from US dollars, and that threatens
[02:02:26] your savings and retirement security.
[02:02:29] Legendary investor Ray Dalio warns
[02:02:31] skyrocketing debt, relentless money
[02:02:34] printing, and a weakening dollar are all
[02:02:37] part of a dangerous cycle that could
[02:02:39] impact you. That's why more Americans
[02:02:41] are turning to real assets like physical
[02:02:43] gold and silver. Gold just surged past
[02:02:46] $3,700
[02:02:47] per ounce, and momentum is building.
[02:02:49] I've partnered with veteranowned
[02:02:51] American Independence Gold to help you
[02:02:54] take action. Open a qualifying account
[02:02:56] today and get up to $10,000 in bonus
[02:02:59] gold and our free gold protection guide.
[02:03:02] And [music] here's the best part. A
[02:03:04] portion of every sale supports Tunnel to
[02:03:06] Towers and Wounded Warriors. Freedom
[02:03:08] [music] isn't given, it's secured. This
[02:03:11] is James O'Keefe. As always, this is not
[02:03:13] financial advice. Always check with your
[02:03:15] licensed financial adviser before you
[02:03:17] invest. Listen,
[02:03:23] we're standing up to the powers that
[02:03:25] tried to discredit us, silence us, smear
[02:03:28] us, raid us, [music] and throw us in
[02:03:30] jail.
[02:03:32] They've awakened a sleeping giant. We're
[02:03:34] building a movement of transparency
[02:03:36] [music] and accountability in both the
[02:03:38] public and private sectors. Because we
[02:03:40] run from nothing, we hide from nothing.
[02:03:43] And when you join and [music] get your
[02:03:45] full access pass, you fuel a movement
[02:03:48] for truth. You, we
[02:03:51] are the media now.
[02:04:13] >> [music]
[02:04:28] [music]
[02:04:35] >> Okay, we are back with whistleblower
[02:04:38] from the NSA, Thomas Drake. Um, so they
[02:04:42] didn't break you.
[02:04:43] >> No,
[02:04:44] >> they did not break you. What, you know,
[02:04:48] people watching this might be about to
[02:04:50] do
[02:04:52] what you did. They're they're seeing
[02:04:54] corruption,
[02:04:55] abuse, and fraud, and they're they're
[02:04:57] trying to figure out what to do, and
[02:04:59] they're right on that that precipice of
[02:05:00] of of telling the truth. What advice do
[02:05:03] you have for those people?
[02:05:05] really think hard before you go public
[02:05:07] or even go anonymous
[02:05:10] because it's going to change your life.
[02:05:12] >> It's going to change your life.
[02:05:13] >> Yes. Power does not take kindly when you
[02:05:16] hold up the mirror, especially abuse of
[02:05:19] of power. They don't.
[02:05:21] >> You talk about it as if it's a mirror
[02:05:24] like they need to
[02:05:26] destroy the mirror.
[02:05:27] >> Yes.
[02:05:28] >> Destroy the mirror.
[02:05:29] >> Or in this case, let's shoot the
[02:05:31] messenger if you're a whistleblower
[02:05:32] because you have a message. Your message
[02:05:35] is in fact holding up the mirror. So
[02:05:37] shoot the messenger.
[02:05:39] >> You you call it um
[02:05:40] >> it's pathological.
[02:05:42] >> But it's human nature.
[02:05:43] >> Yes. Fundamentally. Oh yeah. In all of
[02:05:45] this it's human nature. It's the base
[02:05:47] human condition.
[02:05:48] >> The the the base human
[02:05:49] >> the base human condition.
[02:05:50] >> Is that your terminology?
[02:05:52] >> Yes.
[02:05:52] >> What does that mean?
[02:05:53] >> Well the human condition over the
[02:05:55] millennia is it's you know we have all
[02:05:57] the evidence.
[02:05:59] >> Empires come and go. People engage in
[02:06:01] corruption and evil and you know all
[02:06:03] kinds of sinful acts
[02:06:06] >> basically
[02:06:06] >> and sometimes they get away with it
[02:06:07] other times they don't but
[02:06:11] man's I'll just say man's inhumity
[02:06:13] against man runs deep and you it's
[02:06:16] important what is the source of that
[02:06:19] well you can say it's wickedness the
[02:06:20] heart's desperately deceitful
[02:06:24] and this is sort of our inherent nature
[02:06:27] we are we are not inherently good We can
[02:06:30] aspire,
[02:06:32] but we're not inherently good.
[02:06:34] >> But it's it's almost like um what's the
[02:06:36] darkest thing to you can hear you say
[02:06:40] these words, but when you actually live
[02:06:42] through what you've lived through and I
[02:06:44] and I certainly
[02:06:46] I have not been through what you have
[02:06:48] been through. You I have been through
[02:06:49] some things that help me understand how
[02:06:51] you feel. Uh the darkest things about
[02:06:54] human nature, it seems to me, is that
[02:06:56] it's emblematic of us all. It's symbolic
[02:06:59] of every man, woman, and child. It's not
[02:07:02] just the evil guys at the top
[02:07:04] >> without exception.
[02:07:06] >> That's the part that I think it's hard
[02:07:07] for people to process.
[02:07:09] >> That's the darkest part for me. It's
[02:07:11] like you're not just talking about some
[02:07:12] like Dick Cheney or some guy who's on
[02:07:15] the fifth floor of the CIA. You're
[02:07:16] talking about human everybody. Look,
[02:07:19] evil or let's say those who wake up
[02:07:23] every morning to
[02:07:25] commit all kinds of acts that are do not
[02:07:28] provide for our well-being or promote
[02:07:29] our well-being. They're they're looking
[02:07:31] for ways to get one over to control is
[02:07:35] really more controlling others. That
[02:07:38] kind of power is extraordinarily
[02:07:40] seductive. Uh Henry Kissinger actually
[02:07:42] had something to say about that.
[02:07:43] >> Yeah, the the power is the ultimate
[02:07:45] aphrodisiac.
[02:07:46] >> That's right. So power you combine that
[02:07:49] combine power combine it with money
[02:07:52] combine it with greed
[02:07:54] that that that triangulation
[02:07:58] >> leads to all kinds of things
[02:08:00] >> and and and power and and sex are are
[02:08:03] kind of go hand in hand and money gets
[02:08:05] you the power but uh I think I think
[02:08:08] >> that's a that's for some it's like
[02:08:10] exercising power even even sex can
[02:08:13] simply be another instrument by which
[02:08:15] you exercise power and control over
[02:08:17] others.
[02:08:17] >> It it does seem like, you know, I'm an
[02:08:20] outsider. I don't I don't really work in
[02:08:22] politics. People have the false
[02:08:24] impression that I'm I'm I'm a politico.
[02:08:26] I'm not. And the thing that makes, you
[02:08:29] know, makes it so strange in politics is
[02:08:31] it's all about in information is is
[02:08:33] power. And
[02:08:34] >> coin of the realm is is a phrase that
[02:08:37] coin of the realm.
[02:08:39] >> Knowledge is the coin of the realm.
[02:08:40] Especially when you have knowledge over
[02:08:42] others,
[02:08:44] >> right?
[02:08:44] >> Or to compromise others.
[02:08:46] Right.
[02:08:47] >> Think about the Epstein scandal.
[02:08:48] >> And and I don't think of what we do here
[02:08:50] in terms of that, but other people do.
[02:08:53] They view it through the lens of of this
[02:08:55] there's this dark world of blackmail and
[02:08:57] leverage. And as a as a journalist and
[02:09:00] what you did, at least the Baltimore Sun
[02:09:02] reporter was endeavoring to do is
[02:09:03] journalism is getting it out to the
[02:09:04] masses, the first amendment. But that's
[02:09:06] not how political people tend to to
[02:09:09] operate. They tend to view it as type of
[02:09:11] leverage that they could use. And your
[02:09:14] your intent here
[02:09:15] >> very transactional
[02:09:16] >> transactionalism transaction
[02:09:18] >> moral and ethics are all relative here.
[02:09:21] >> Yeah. [snorts] You you mentioned
[02:09:22] something earlier on. You said right and
[02:09:24] wrong. Jeffrey Wan the famous 60 minutes
[02:09:27] cuz you went on 60 Minutes. But the
[02:09:29] tobacco guy from 1996 he said when asked
[02:09:32] by Mike Wallace do why did you do this?
[02:09:35] And he said because it was right. Where
[02:09:38] does your sense of right and wrong come
[02:09:41] from?
[02:09:44] It goes all the way back to my
[02:09:45] experiences,
[02:09:46] very negative experiences in terms of
[02:09:49] what is what is just,
[02:09:52] >> what is right when it comes to who we
[02:09:54] are and how do we behave with each other
[02:09:57] >> that you you formed your sense of right
[02:09:59] and wrong from the bad things that
[02:10:00] happened to you.
[02:10:01] >> Yes.
[02:10:02] >> And
[02:10:03] >> those experiences clearly put me in a
[02:10:06] set of circumstances to where I was on
[02:10:09] this quest to figure out why
[02:10:12] all this is taking place. I I used to
[02:10:15] argue with God when I was younger like
[02:10:17] why do you let all this happen? Why do
[02:10:18] you let all this evil occur? Why do you
[02:10:20] let all this
[02:10:21] >> and when you had the argument with God?
[02:10:23] What did you learn?
[02:10:24] >> I had to come to accept that there was a
[02:10:27] reason for it all.
[02:10:28] >> That's kind of the way.
[02:10:29] >> How else do you know the difference?
[02:10:31] Sort of like you can imagine in the
[02:10:32] Garden of Eden to use to bring that up.
[02:10:36] How would you know the difference
[02:10:38] between good and evil if you didn't have
[02:10:40] an experience of it? How would you even
[02:10:42] appreciate what good is if you didn't
[02:10:44] know what evil is?
[02:10:45] >> Well, that's true. There is a lot of
[02:10:48] >> and the difference between them. But see
[02:10:51] that by their fruits you shall know them
[02:10:52] to use another biblical phrase. So how
[02:10:56] do you know
[02:10:58] how would someone where are they coming
[02:11:00] from? Not by what they say per se,
[02:11:04] but by what they do. By by your fruits
[02:11:07] >> how they act.
[02:11:09] >> By the fruits you should know them.
[02:11:10] >> Yeah. Well, you can plant seeds, but you
[02:11:12] know, by their fruits, you should know
[02:11:14] them. That's another way of saying it.
[02:11:16] >> Um I have this book. This is uh he
[02:11:18] worked with this guy at the uh what was
[02:11:20] his name? Tom Deine, the corporate
[02:11:22] whistleblower survival guy.
[02:11:24] >> He was um he didn't actually represent
[02:11:27] me directly, but he was one of the
[02:11:29] senior uh lawyers in the government
[02:11:31] accountability project. There was two
[02:11:33] other attorneys. They're not there
[02:11:34] anymore. um who actually were
[02:11:37] representing me for whistleblower
[02:11:40] advocacy. Um they were actually part of
[02:11:43] reaching out for the the media campaign.
[02:11:46] How do you influence the court of public
[02:11:47] opinion and also legal counsel? I I
[02:11:51] underlined a few sentences in the book,
[02:11:52] The Personal Price. [snorts] You may be
[02:11:55] on a lot shorter fuse at home. While
[02:11:57] your family may have a difficult time
[02:11:58] understanding and sympathizing with what
[02:12:00] you're going through, it is not uncommon
[02:12:01] for marriages and other relationships to
[02:12:03] fall apart. I hear this a lot from
[02:12:04] people. I have a wife and kids.
[02:12:06] Therefore, I can't do what is I'm
[02:12:10] supposed to. I I world is so upside
[02:12:13] down, isn't it? People are so I mean, I
[02:12:15] don't want to make judgments, but I'm
[02:12:16] going to make a judgment. It just seems
[02:12:19] It just It just stands to reason like my
[02:12:21] buddy Rick Adante said to me over the
[02:12:23] weekend that if you have a son, don't
[02:12:26] you want your son to look up to you? I
[02:12:27] mean, you have a son. What does he think
[02:12:30] about everything that's occurred?
[02:12:32] He's actually quite proud of his father
[02:12:34] just based on what you know he has
[02:12:35] shared with others.
[02:12:37] >> And he's the 12-year-old who was
[02:12:38] >> the 12-y old that lived through part of
[02:12:40] it.
[02:12:40] >> The the raid.
[02:12:41] >> Yes. He was right there. He was the one
[02:12:42] he opened the door.
[02:12:44] >> You have to say, "Hey, dad, there's
[02:12:45] someone to see you." He had the presence
[02:12:46] of mind to say that [laughter]
[02:12:49] >> and your wife you you went through some
[02:12:51] troubles in your
[02:12:52] >> She had no idea that I had blown the
[02:12:53] whistle on anything.
[02:12:55] >> She was completely ignorant of anything
[02:12:57] I had done, anything I had participated
[02:12:59] in in terms of investigations. Let alone
[02:13:01] going to the press.
[02:13:02] >> You didn't want to.
[02:13:03] >> Of course not. I had to protect her. I
[02:13:05] had to protect
[02:13:06] >> What about pillow privilege? Their
[02:13:08] so-called pillow privilege.
[02:13:09] >> That doesn't exist.
[02:13:10] >> So, they interviewed her.
[02:13:11] >> They interrogated her right after I
[02:13:14] >> Who's they?
[02:13:15] >> The f it was actually NSA security.
[02:13:18] >> NSA security interrogated your wife?
[02:13:21] >> Yes. Right after I was raided
[02:13:22] >> like against her will. How does that
[02:13:24] work?
[02:13:24] >> Well, remember she has a security
[02:13:26] clearance. So that's a condition of
[02:13:29] continuing employment.
[02:13:30] >> Your your wife has a security clearance
[02:13:32] because she's married to you or
[02:13:33] >> No, she's has security clearance because
[02:13:35] she's a contractor. It works for NSA.
[02:13:36] >> Oh, how did you two meet?
[02:13:39] >> On an NSA contract decades ago.
[02:13:43] >> I see. So the pillow privilege doesn't
[02:13:45] apply because
[02:13:47] >> it's supposed to technically, but you're
[02:13:49] talking national security. Oh, there's
[02:13:52] >> Yeah, it's like it's like I said to you,
[02:13:54] >> once once you have national security
[02:13:56] enter the picture, Yeah. all bets are
[02:13:58] off.
[02:13:58] >> It's like a in in
[02:14:00] >> they're going to leverage everybody,
[02:14:01] especially people. You know, I already
[02:14:03] knew that.
[02:14:05] >> In love and war, there are no rules. In
[02:14:07] in war and espionage, in espionage,
[02:14:09] there are no rules. Anything goes.
[02:14:10] >> Well, espionage, someone is the world's
[02:14:12] second oldest profession, but that's
[02:14:14] [laughter]
[02:14:15] >> and in my case, with the pimp hooker
[02:14:16] thing, we combined a little bit of both.
[02:14:19] prostitution and espionage, although
[02:14:22] journalism is not espionage. Another
[02:14:23] quote from this book, um, what bothers
[02:14:25] whistleblowers, and by the way, I this
[02:14:28] this really affected me. What bothers
[02:14:31] whistleblowers the most is not that
[02:14:33] their boss retaliated, this is at least
[02:14:35] understandable. they're operating in
[02:14:38] their own self-interest and protecting
[02:14:39] interest, but that colleagues they
[02:14:41] thought were their friends with whom
[02:14:43] some of the whistleblowers had spent
[02:14:45] more time than their families refused to
[02:14:48] recognize
[02:14:49] the the righteousness of
[02:14:50] >> Oh, I spent more more hours. In fact,
[02:14:53] there were it was kind of a joke that
[02:14:54] you would actually have your work wife
[02:14:56] or work husband
[02:14:58] that people would get that close.
[02:15:00] >> Yeah. I mean and what did they
[02:15:02] >> hours and hours were you colleagues
[02:15:03] right alongside you when you're blowing
[02:15:05] the whistle or did they
[02:15:06] >> no
[02:15:07] >> no they didn't want to talk
[02:15:08] >> when everything happened they didn't
[02:15:09] want I was persona nongrada
[02:15:13] [sighs]
[02:15:14] >> the last thing they wanted was to see
[02:15:17] themselves in any way associated with me
[02:15:19] and by virtue of association they were
[02:15:21] interrogated
[02:15:23] >> these people these people in the
[02:15:25] government like this is this guy Michael
[02:15:26] Hayden who was was he the head of the
[02:15:29] NSA when you were
[02:15:31] from 2000 or 1999 to 2005. I was there
[02:15:35] through 2008.
[02:15:36] >> What motivates these people?
[02:15:38] >> Power.
[02:15:38] >> Power.
[02:15:39] >> Promotion.
[02:15:41] >> Promotion.
[02:15:42] >> Yes. Having the ability to control
[02:15:45] others. It's classic. It's just classic.
[02:15:48] It's all classic. And Hayden was a
[02:15:50] >> remember mo the vast majority of human
[02:15:52] beings with rare very rare exception
[02:15:55] when put in charge of others
[02:15:58] tends to go downhill over time.
[02:16:01] >> Yeah. I mean if if I if I took that
[02:16:03] approach my my my entity would just
[02:16:04] collapse. But it's a different model I
[02:16:06] suppose if you're getting money from the
[02:16:08] government versus you have to raise
[02:16:09] millions of dollars to indemnify
[02:16:10] journalists. It's a different racket.
[02:16:13] It's a different model.
[02:16:14] >> You also start thinking you're
[02:16:16] privileged because you're at a senior
[02:16:18] position. You start worshiping yourself.
[02:16:20] Do they worship themselves?
[02:16:22] >> Yes.
[02:16:22] >> But there but Hayden is supposedly
[02:16:24] >> Well, that's that's the who's the
[02:16:26] fairest of them all. Remember that's
[02:16:27] another version of the mirror. But the
[02:16:28] mirror in this case is self-reflecting.
[02:16:30] That's the narcissist principle.
[02:16:31] >> So these are all you you worked at the
[02:16:33] CIA for was it 1989? You
[02:16:35] >> 89 short time
[02:16:36] >> for about a year and [snorts] a lot of
[02:16:38] narcissists at the CIA I imagine.
[02:16:40] >> Yes. Yeah.
[02:16:41] >> But there's a lot of narcissists in
[02:16:42] society but they tend I will you seems
[02:16:45] to be a higher concentrate. We're all
[02:16:46] narcissists to some degree. We all have
[02:16:49] self-interest. We do. We have our own
[02:16:52] egos.
[02:16:52] >> But that's the thing that we fight
[02:16:54] against.
[02:16:54] >> It's fundamental. We have our own egos.
[02:16:56] >> But your fight seems to be a fight
[02:16:59] against human nature itself.
[02:17:01] >> Yeah. And that's that's a losing
[02:17:02] proposition in some ways.
[02:17:04] >> It is a losing proposition.
[02:17:06] >> I'm not I'm not I'm not disagreeing with
[02:17:08] that at all.
[02:17:09] >> But but I I see
[02:17:10] >> I'm fighting saying I'm fighting with
[02:17:11] myself as well. a little bit of myself
[02:17:14] in you because I I learned that a few
[02:17:16] years ago. I I said that this is a fight
[02:17:18] against human nature to to fight to be a
[02:17:20] trutht teller. One must contend against
[02:17:22] all these things,
[02:17:24] >> other people pursuing their own
[02:17:25] self-interest. Was it always this bad?
[02:17:28] You're about 25. You're old enough to be
[02:17:30] my dad. My dad's about your age. Was it
[02:17:32] always this bad? You you've worked in
[02:17:34] the Air Force. You worked in the CIA in
[02:17:36] the 80s, the Cold War. Or has it gotten
[02:17:38] worse, or are we just seeing more truths
[02:17:41] come out? because of the
[02:17:43] >> well it's kind of a both end. I think it
[02:17:45] is getting worse. But there's also what
[02:17:47] I'll call the avarice of apathy.
[02:17:50] >> The the avarice of
[02:17:51] >> the avarice the avarice of apathy.
[02:17:53] >> I've heard the term religion of apathy
[02:17:55] from the bord patrol. What does avarice
[02:17:57] of apathy mean?
[02:17:58] >> Just this abject, you know, cynicism to
[02:18:01] the point where who cares?
[02:18:02] >> And that's gotten worse.
[02:18:04] >> Yes.
[02:18:04] >> So in the 80s it wasn't like that.
[02:18:06] >> Less so.
[02:18:07] >> See, they say apathy is actually worse
[02:18:09] than fear.
[02:18:10] >> Yes.
[02:18:11] >> Uh apathy is worse than fear. Yeah, it's
[02:18:14] actually it fear can freeze you. I'm
[02:18:19] certainly familiar with what fear is.
[02:18:21] Having confronted in another situation
[02:18:23] where someone tried to assassinate me.
[02:18:26] >> Someone tried to assassinate you.
[02:18:28] >> Yeah. This long history.
[02:18:30] >> Was that when you were at the CIA?
[02:18:31] >> No.
[02:18:32] >> Or when you were at the um
[02:18:33] >> when I was growing up. I long story.
[02:18:35] This is part of my quest to figure out
[02:18:37] what the heck's going on in this world.
[02:18:38] And you know there was there was
[02:18:41] religions out there who claimed to know
[02:18:42] the have the truth when they don't.
[02:18:45] >> It was a cult. I think
[02:18:46] >> it was a cult. And the [snorts] cult
[02:18:48] leader who called himself a prophet sent
[02:18:50] someone after me literally to kill me
[02:18:54] because I had blown the whistle because
[02:18:56] he was engaging in
[02:19:00] child predation. Another thing about you
[02:19:04] that's interesting is that throughout
[02:19:05] your life, even in that anecdote, which
[02:19:08] we could spend an hour on, you you you
[02:19:10] you there's a there's a common practice
[02:19:13] of you telling the truth in in all
[02:19:15] forms, not just at the NSA, but but back
[02:19:17] then uh and
[02:19:19] >> yeah, it's gotten me in trouble a lot.
[02:19:22] >> But you don't remember what Orwell said,
[02:19:25] >> truth is treason in the empire of lies.
[02:19:27] >> Truth is treason in the empire in the
[02:19:29] empire of lies. Um, also in times of
[02:19:32] universal deceit, telling the truth is a
[02:19:34] revolutionary act.
[02:19:35] >> Universal deceit.
[02:19:36] >> No, Orwell is inspirational for me, but
[02:19:38] I never, you know, 1984 was never meant
[02:19:40] to, it was never meant. It was a
[02:19:41] warning, but it's become a manual. It
[02:19:44] >> sounds like 1984.
[02:19:45] >> You got to remember, you got to remember
[02:19:46] the main character in 1984.
[02:19:50] >> You know, the only place
[02:19:51] >> Winston protagonist
[02:19:53] >> the only place it was actually a love
[02:19:54] story. If you actually read the book in
[02:19:56] full, it's a love story. But he couldn't
[02:19:57] even he couldn't even do that, right?
[02:19:59] because he was so scared and so fearful.
[02:20:01] Remember in the end he cried uncle. He
[02:20:03] did he
[02:20:04] >> the torture device.
[02:20:05] >> He he well but remember even in his
[02:20:07] apartment early on the only place he
[02:20:08] could go to where the cameras that the
[02:20:11] eye couldn't see him was in the corner
[02:20:13] which mean they knew where he was.
[02:20:15] I know what that's like cuz I was
[02:20:17] surveile upside down and inside out
[02:20:19] electronically and physically for years.
[02:20:22] It's a very weird feeling when you have
[02:20:24] eyes eyes and ears listening in and
[02:20:26] looking at you. Did they surveil you
[02:20:28] with secret warrants before they raided
[02:20:30] you?
[02:20:31] >> I do not. To this day, I do not know.
[02:20:34] It's possible, but I don't know that
[02:20:37] >> they did that to me.
[02:20:38] >> It is possible.
[02:20:39] >> The 2703 warrants. They went to
[02:20:41] Microsoft, Apple, Google, and uh got all
[02:20:44] of my communications.
[02:20:45] >> But see, I was also well aware that they
[02:20:47] had systems in place that would have
[02:20:48] done that anyways, whether they needed a
[02:20:50] warrant or not. Remember, you're in an
[02:20:51] environment where the warrant didn't
[02:20:52] really matter. The only that was just
[02:20:54] proarma even coming to my house. Yes.
[02:20:56] They had to go to an article 3 judge, a
[02:21:00] magistrate judge to get a
[02:21:01] >> warrant.
[02:21:02] >> That's correct. Based on an affidavit.
[02:21:04] The affidavit is given to basically is
[02:21:06] pulled together information to says this
[02:21:08] is why we need a warrant from you
[02:21:10] article 3 judge.
[02:21:12] >> Is that affidavit been released?
[02:21:13] >> Yes.
[02:21:14] >> Is it?
[02:21:14] >> But it wasn't released during the whole
[02:21:15] time. This is a whole another whole part
[02:21:17] of this story which there's
[02:21:19] extraordinary threads in all of this.
[02:21:21] The government actually would not give
[02:21:23] the affidavit behind the warrant to my
[02:21:26] public defenders because they claimed it
[02:21:27] was classified or under classification
[02:21:29] review to be accurate. More accurate
[02:21:31] >> public defenders because you couldn't
[02:21:32] afford counsel.
[02:21:33] >> I was declared indigent before the
[02:21:34] court.
[02:21:35] >> Indigent means
[02:21:36] >> indigent meaning when you have to fill
[02:21:38] out a form. Are you able to pay for your
[02:21:40] own representation? You couldn't. I had
[02:21:42] no money left.
[02:21:43] >> And where did that money go to pay
[02:21:45] lawyers prior to that? Oh, when I was
[02:21:47] when I was indicted so unceremoniously
[02:21:50] in April of 2010,
[02:21:52] right, this is this is two years after I
[02:21:55] resigned,
[02:21:57] obviously under pressure,
[02:22:00] you have to fill out before arraignment,
[02:22:02] you have to fill out a bunch of
[02:22:03] paperwork. One of them is what is your
[02:22:05] financial wherewithal? You list all your
[02:22:07] assets. You list all your debits. I
[02:22:09] owned the house with my wife, but the
[02:22:12] house was nowhere near. Even if even if
[02:22:14] we had sold the house, I was I already
[02:22:17] knew I knew this was again my I had to
[02:22:20] have a criminal defense attorney. So for
[02:22:21] the first two years, I'm spending 500 an
[02:22:25] hour.
[02:22:26] >> $500 an hour.
[02:22:27] >> 500 an hour.
[02:22:27] >> By the way, that's one of the things cut
[02:22:28] me a break.
[02:22:29] >> Lawyers make money off the corruption.
[02:22:31] >> It doesn't matter which way it is.
[02:22:33] That's the great thing about being a
[02:22:34] lawyer. That's why lawyers get a bad
[02:22:36] name because it doesn't matter to them.
[02:22:38] >> Yeah. doesn't they have no ownership in
[02:22:40] the outcome
[02:22:41] >> at all.
[02:22:41] >> They don't they I don't know if saying
[02:22:43] they don't care because they're human,
[02:22:45] but the incentives are all economic for
[02:22:48] them.
[02:22:49] >> They do not care. And it's and it's
[02:22:52] desri it's disgusting.
[02:22:54] >> Yeah.
[02:22:55] >> And I don't and and I just want to make
[02:22:56] a comment even though I'm interviewing.
[02:22:58] I'm I'm going to make a comment. We're
[02:23:00] all going to die. Like and it's like the
[02:23:03] Braveheart speech, you know, that Mel
[02:23:05] Gibson says so in so a few words. is
[02:23:07] like many years from now when you're
[02:23:09] lying in your bed and you're just about
[02:23:12] to die, you're going to look back on the
[02:23:14] way you behaved, does it really matter
[02:23:17] that you were making $500 an hour versus
[02:23:20] 50?
[02:23:20] >> No. But if other things don't matter in
[02:23:23] life, then that that's what matters. If
[02:23:25] you're left with just acquisition, make
[02:23:27] as money as you can in your own
[02:23:30] self-interest, by the way, then that's
[02:23:32] the incentive. And the more stuff you
[02:23:34] accumulate, if you have a mortgage and a
[02:23:36] million- dollar house in Bethesda and
[02:23:39] [snorts] an Audi and a and a nagging
[02:23:41] wife who wants her handbag, then maybe
[02:23:45] you need the $500 an hour. But you but
[02:23:47] all that stuff goes away.
[02:23:49] >> None of it matters in the end.
[02:23:50] >> In the but people don't know that. They
[02:23:52] don't they don't know that deeply.
[02:23:54] >> But that's partly I think why there's a
[02:23:55] huge hole in most human hearts because
[02:23:57] that's what's missing.
[02:23:59] >> But it's not missing in your heart.
[02:24:01] That's my interpretation. Remember, I'm
[02:24:03] still a human being.
[02:24:04] >> But you still you're still a sinner.
[02:24:05] >> I'm not sinless.
[02:24:07] >> We're all sinners.
[02:24:08] >> That's right.
[02:24:08] >> I mean, Charlie Kirk, the least
[02:24:11] hypocritical man I've ever known, I'm
[02:24:12] sure he was still a sinner. I'm a
[02:24:14] sinner.
[02:24:15] >> We all come short.
[02:24:16] >> We all come short. But
[02:24:18] >> that's why and we can't outlive outlive
[02:24:20] death
[02:24:21] >> short of
[02:24:23] people. I say this, by the way, Thomas,
[02:24:25] at events, and people just look at me
[02:24:27] like I'm an alien. They don't like me
[02:24:28] saying that. They think it's weird. Um
[02:24:31] what what what people do to me every
[02:24:32] day, even on the street, is they project
[02:24:34] their fear onto me. So they'll say,
[02:24:36] "Aren't you afraid? Aren't you scared?
[02:24:38] You shouldn't go on your sailboat. You
[02:24:40] might die." And I I I you know, there's
[02:24:44] probably a proper way to respond to
[02:24:46] that. But what I say is, "We're all
[02:24:48] going to die one [snorts] day, but not
[02:24:50] all of us live well." And in the final
[02:24:53] analysis, I feel like seconds before you
[02:24:56] died, but you actually sort of did die.
[02:24:57] And you looked back. I didn't want to
[02:24:58] wait until I was on my deathbed to sort
[02:25:00] of sort of come to grips with like
[02:25:02] everything I had ever done and try to
[02:25:04] make amends with my creator.
[02:25:05] >> Yeah.
[02:25:06] >> I'd rather do that sooner, not later,
[02:25:09] >> when it actually meant something.
[02:25:10] >> I mean, I have 100 people messaging me
[02:25:13] on Signal right now from within various
[02:25:15] just on this subcontract fraud. And I
[02:25:18] and I and I have a dream like imagine if
[02:25:20] all of those people at the same exact
[02:25:22] time all told the truth.
[02:25:25] >> See, this is what's interesting. You
[02:25:26] just touched on something very
[02:25:27] interesting when it comes to
[02:25:28] whistleblowing.
[02:25:29] Unlike the government, unlike the teen
[02:25:32] lawyers that they, you know, essentially
[02:25:34] unlimited funds like the DOJ had,
[02:25:35] remember in my investigate, it was five
[02:25:37] full-time prosecutors. When the New York
[02:25:39] Times article was published and they
[02:25:40] launched that investigation two weeks
[02:25:42] later, five full-time prosecutors, 25
[02:25:45] full-time FBI agents were assigned to
[02:25:48] the case, including agents from what was
[02:25:51] called the Mole Hunter Unit. The mole
[02:25:54] hunter unit is a specialized unit highly
[02:25:57] trained to go after real spies.
[02:26:00] >> It's actually called molehunter unit.
[02:26:02] >> I used to walk by the desk at the FBI
[02:26:05] field office.
[02:26:06] >> I think this is what scares them though
[02:26:08] when we say that we have all these
[02:26:10] people. I think that there that really
[02:26:12] scares the [ __ ] out of them and they
[02:26:13] want to know who who I'm talking to. And
[02:26:16] when the FBI raided me, um they took my
[02:26:19] phone. I I logged into my phone to call
[02:26:21] my lawyer and they snatched my phone and
[02:26:23] now they had access to all the people on
[02:26:25] Signal that were messaging me, which is
[02:26:27] if you think about it.
[02:26:27] >> Yeah. In my case, because I had the I
[02:26:29] had the original iPhone.
[02:26:31] >> Oh, yeah.
[02:26:32] >> 2007. It had just been released.
[02:26:35] >> They could not break it at Quantico.
[02:26:37] That was the facility. Is that right?
[02:26:38] Yeah. They could at that time they
[02:26:40] couldn't break it.
[02:26:40] >> They literally came back to me and said,
[02:26:42] "We need your password." I said, "Why?"
[02:26:44] "Because we can't get into your phone."
[02:26:46] >> Did you give it to them?
[02:26:47] >> Yeah, I did. because you just didn't
[02:26:49] want to be
[02:26:50] >> at that point it didn't matter.
[02:26:52] >> So now they had access to everything in
[02:26:54] your life that's on your phone. Although
[02:26:55] back then
[02:26:56] >> take an electron microscope and I'll
[02:26:58] even I'll I'll even invite the audience
[02:27:00] right now.
[02:27:00] >> Yeah.
[02:27:01] >> The audience live on this show. An
[02:27:04] electron microscope but this electron
[02:27:06] microscope pours into every aspect of
[02:27:09] your life from day one. What would they
[02:27:12] find out?
[02:27:15] I don't care. Everything public,
[02:27:16] everything private, everything in
[02:27:17] between. Everything intimate, social
[02:27:20] connections, medical, you name it. All
[02:27:23] your passwords, all your accounts,
[02:27:24] everything you've ever said,
[02:27:27] especially those things you've said, we
[02:27:29] didn't want any else to hear them.
[02:27:31] >> What's your point? Do you want the
[02:27:32] >> What would they find out? What would
[02:27:33] they get to know about you?
[02:27:35] >> And and and I hear you. The reason I
[02:27:36] asked because I was specially trained in
[02:27:38] the Air Force. What would you if you
[02:27:40] found yourself in denied territory? If I
[02:27:42] found myself in East Germany during the
[02:27:44] Cold War, if I found myself in the
[02:27:45] Soviet Union because of where we used to
[02:27:47] fly on the RC135 reconnaissance
[02:27:49] aircraft, how would you deal with being
[02:27:52] tortured psychologically in particular?
[02:27:55] You know what? They were given special
[02:27:57] permission. We had to sign a waiver.
[02:27:59] It basically waved your Fourth Amendment
[02:28:01] rights.
[02:28:03] you consent to the government, literally
[02:28:05] being able to use everything there was
[02:28:08] available to them against you. And they
[02:28:10] would bring that up in these special
[02:28:14] training sessions classified.
[02:28:15] >> And as the audience listens to you say
[02:28:17] this because they didn't go through that
[02:28:18] special training and they do the
[02:28:20] exercise in question, which is to look
[02:28:21] at all the skeletons. And by the way, we
[02:28:24] all have something in our life. Even if
[02:28:26] it's not illegal, although technically
[02:28:28] you break three felonies a day, but even
[02:28:31] if it's not illegal, perhaps it's
[02:28:33] slightly embarrassing.
[02:28:34] >> Stalin said,
[02:28:35] >> "What's that?
[02:28:36] >> Find a man. Show me the crime." That's
[02:28:38] right.
[02:28:38] >> But but when the audience engages in the
[02:28:40] exercise, you just ask them to engage.
[02:28:41] What is the point of the exercise? What
[02:28:43] are you What are you suggesting by
[02:28:45] having people do that exercise?
[02:28:47] >> If the government wants to own you,
[02:28:52] they can go a long ways to do that. I
[02:28:54] was confronted with all kinds of
[02:28:55] information
[02:28:57] >> but from your life.
[02:28:58] >> Yes. Even stuff that was made up.
[02:29:00] >> They just make it up.
[02:29:01] >> Allegations. Yes. They they
[02:29:02] >> But is But are you doing this exercise
[02:29:04] to scare people or to just tell them the
[02:29:06] way it is?
[02:29:07] >> The way it is.
[02:29:08] >> Okay.
[02:29:09] >> But that's seductive power. The power to
[02:29:12] actually That's why the fourth amendment
[02:29:14] is so critical to what it means to be an
[02:29:15] American. Is one of the distinctions
[02:29:17] that makes us American.
[02:29:20] >> That's what that a man's home is his
[02:29:22] castle. that a man's person is is right.
[02:29:26] It t is a super high bar to break it.
[02:29:29] >> And in this room, there's a man over
[02:29:32] here who's stands for the fourth
[02:29:34] amendment and a man over here that
[02:29:35] stands for the first amendment. And the
[02:29:36] FBI rapid us both. They psychologically
[02:29:39] they raped us.
[02:29:40] >> Yes.
[02:29:40] >> By taking our our property.
[02:29:43] >> Yes.
[02:29:44] >> And and going in there
[02:29:46] >> is an utter violation of who you are.
[02:29:49] Which leads to another question that I
[02:29:54] there's an American flag over there. I
[02:29:56] don't know if you can switch the camera
[02:29:57] angle. We're live. That's that flag is
[02:30:00] right behind Thomas Drake. And I as a
[02:30:02] child, did you when you were in
[02:30:04] elementary school, did you pledge
[02:30:05] allegiance to the flag? I did, too.
[02:30:06] >> Every morning
[02:30:07] >> when the FBI raided me, and I don't know
[02:30:10] if I've ever said this publicly, and
[02:30:12] I'll probably get heat for it, but I had
[02:30:16] fear overcome me. I mean I I can't even
[02:30:19] describe it's probably fear that many of
[02:30:21] you feel out there on something in your
[02:30:24] life. Uh but it I never felt so much
[02:30:27] fear and the reason why I felt fear is
[02:30:30] because I thought holy [ __ ] if they can
[02:30:33] raid a newsroom which never happened
[02:30:34] before in American history. What else
[02:30:37] are they willing to do? And then my mind
[02:30:38] went to places that I didn't want to go
[02:30:40] for example I thought are they putting
[02:30:42] child porn on my phone. This is
[02:30:44] everything that the audience is always
[02:30:46] projecting on to me. By the way, this is
[02:30:47] the way most people think. It's a very
[02:30:49] powerful deterrent because it makes the
[02:30:52] sheep go to the slaughter. They'll do
[02:30:54] whatever they powers be want them to do.
[02:30:56] But for those three days after the raid,
[02:30:58] I felt the way they did. I was scared.
[02:31:00] >> Yeah, but instead of a shepherd, there's
[02:31:01] a wolf.
[02:31:02] >> What do you mean?
[02:31:04] >> You said the sheep going to slaughter.
[02:31:05] >> So the sheep the people.
[02:31:06] >> There's no shepherd to protect the
[02:31:08] sheep. [snorts] It's a wolf.
[02:31:11] >> Sheep's clothing. Or it's just the wolf.
[02:31:12] >> A wolf in sheep's clothing.
[02:31:14] >> Doesn't matter. I was
[02:31:17] thinking back as a child to the the
[02:31:20] pledge of allegiance to the flag and and
[02:31:21] and you've articulated in a way that I
[02:31:23] never have, which is the fourth
[02:31:24] amendment is so and the first and the
[02:31:27] fourth amendment in particular what
[02:31:28] makes us uniquely American. I I almost
[02:31:31] it it it shattered my illusion about my
[02:31:34] own country and it's hard for us to
[02:31:36] reconcile love of country and the kind
[02:31:39] of optimism and I deeply admired Charlie
[02:31:41] Kirk because he was so optimistic. while
[02:31:44] simultaneously acknowledging the brutal,
[02:31:47] ugly, dark reality.
[02:31:50] >> I have I've had to live with both.
[02:31:52] >> How do
[02:31:52] >> the aspirational nature of who we became
[02:31:55] as a country?
[02:31:56] >> Yeah.
[02:31:56] >> Separating ourselves
[02:31:58] >> from a monarchy.
[02:32:00] >> Yeah. Because in in our case, it is a
[02:32:02] monarchy.
[02:32:03] >> Yes.
[02:32:03] >> It Aristotle says, "You are what you
[02:32:05] repeatedly do."
[02:32:06] >> Yeah.
[02:32:07] >> Regardless of what you aspire to be.
[02:32:09] >> Yeah.
[02:32:09] >> When they when when when violent thugs
[02:32:11] with guns
[02:32:13] harass your family and take your
[02:32:16] intimate stuff.
[02:32:17] >> Yeah,
[02:32:17] >> that's monarch monarchy behavior.
[02:32:20] >> Yes, it is.
[02:32:21] >> Um,
[02:32:22] >> there's a piece of paper that lets them
[02:32:24] do that.
[02:32:25] >> Yeah.
[02:32:26] >> Signed by a judge,
[02:32:27] >> a warrant.
[02:32:28] >> What's the difference?
[02:32:29] >> And you know, I showed you my affidavit.
[02:32:30] Every word's redacted. Do they redact
[02:32:32] every word of your affidavit after they
[02:32:34] released it?
[02:32:34] >> Uh, no.
[02:32:35] >> I'd like to see that affidavit. I didn't
[02:32:37] I didn't have that in front of me, but
[02:32:38] what do you make of that out there that
[02:32:39] that every single word is redacted?
[02:32:41] >> Yeah, that's quite extraordinary. I've
[02:32:43] seen a lot of things redacted and I've
[02:32:45] seen some things that are pretty much
[02:32:46] all redacted, but they really didn't
[02:32:48] want you to know.
[02:32:49] >> Do you think there was moles informants?
[02:32:51] >> Well, I it's hard to see. This is
[02:32:53] >> it's an opinion.
[02:32:53] >> They don't want to reveal to you how
[02:32:56] they found out or even who their what
[02:32:58] they call sources and methods. If
[02:33:01] there's one thing that government gets
[02:33:03] really particular about, it's sources
[02:33:04] and methods.
[02:33:07] And everyone says, "Call cash. Call
[02:33:09] cash. Call Pam. Call you know you know
[02:33:11] Pam Bonnie. Call Pam. This is the
[02:33:12] problem with politics is that people
[02:33:15] give me the advice of asking a favor of
[02:33:19] the president or the attorney general or
[02:33:22] you know Cash Patel. By the way, I think
[02:33:24] Cash Patel is a good guy. I think Pam
[02:33:25] means well. But I I always say if the
[02:33:28] administration of justice depends upon
[02:33:31] the citizen calling in a personal favor
[02:33:33] from the person at the top of the
[02:33:35] apparatus,
[02:33:36] >> not justice.
[02:33:37] >> That first of all, that's not justice.
[02:33:38] Second of all, those individuals have to
[02:33:40] protect their sources and methods. Yes.
[02:33:43] >> So if Cash Patel does not protect his
[02:33:46] sources and methods, throw this on the
[02:33:47] screen, team. Go ahead. Throw that on
[02:33:50] the screen. There we go. Look at that.
[02:33:51] Every word redacted. So if I'm Cash
[02:33:54] Patel, even if I did have the authority,
[02:33:57] I think he has to go to Pam Bondi.
[02:34:00] Then they're violating their maximum of
[02:34:02] protecting their sources methods. They
[02:34:04] can't release that, can they?
[02:34:05] >> No,
[02:34:06] >> they can't do. So they have to blow the
[02:34:07] whistle on their own agency. But it
[02:34:09] gives them it gives them an advantage
[02:34:10] over you.
[02:34:11] >> What do you mean?
[02:34:12] >> Because they you they never get to they
[02:34:13] never have to share with you what they
[02:34:15] knew or or didn't know.
[02:34:19] [sighs]
[02:34:20] >> So,
[02:34:21] >> but that's why I fear for the future of
[02:34:22] America. I really do.
[02:34:24] >> You fear.
[02:34:25] >> Remember, all empires end up in the dust
[02:34:27] bins of history. there. No empire from
[02:34:31] the time we came into existence from
[02:34:34] Adam and Eve has ever survived.
[02:34:38] Unless Thomas, what if more people do
[02:34:41] what you do? Like if there were a
[02:34:43] hundred of you or
[02:34:44] >> So that's my hope that there's still
[02:34:46] enough people left that care enough
[02:34:51] to stand up and make a difference.
[02:34:52] >> Well, I guarantee you there are
[02:34:54] messaging on right now. I remember. See,
[02:34:57] some people still to this day say, "Tom,
[02:34:59] you're so naive. You really believe in
[02:35:01] the aspirational nature
[02:35:04] of
[02:35:05] America as a country?" Yeah. Well, in
[02:35:09] the preamble of the Constitution, guess
[02:35:10] what it says? We the people.
[02:35:13] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[02:35:15] >> What? To form a more per It never meant
[02:35:18] it was going to be perfect,
[02:35:20] but form a more perfect union.
[02:35:24] [sighs]
[02:35:24] Isn't that Isn't that something? Isn't
[02:35:26] that good? Good. Good.
[02:35:30] >> Isn't that something that is worthy of
[02:35:33] aspiring to? Doesn't it have value in
[02:35:35] itself?
[02:35:38] Why the division? Why all the But see,
[02:35:40] now I'm back to human nature again.
[02:35:42] >> Yeah.
[02:35:43] >> And I've had to accept for quite a while
[02:35:47] the abysmal state of of human nature in
[02:35:50] all of us.
[02:35:51] It's it's a you're between a rock and a
[02:35:53] hard place because you have to love the
[02:35:55] country and you have to take an oath to
[02:35:56] protect the country, but you it makes
[02:35:58] you almost I've had some people say it
[02:36:01] makes them ashamed to be an American,
[02:36:02] which is an horrible thing to say,
[02:36:05] >> but it's a it's an emotion that people
[02:36:06] feel
[02:36:08] >> when they're put this back on the screen
[02:36:10] again. I'll I'll bring this up every
[02:36:12] single guest. Look at this. Look at this
[02:36:13] crap.
[02:36:14] >> Yeah,
[02:36:14] >> this is outrageous. I've wrestled with
[02:36:18] the reality that I was betrayed by my
[02:36:20] own country.
[02:36:22] >> Well, we we we both have.
[02:36:24] >> After Snowden, they formed a joint task
[02:36:28] force, insider threat task force between
[02:36:31] the DNI and the DOJ. They had a rogues
[02:36:34] gallery of those who would do us harm.
[02:36:37] It had all the classic spies from US
[02:36:40] history. It also had a picture of me and
[02:36:44] a picture of Snowden. Now all the spies
[02:36:46] had flags of the countries to which they
[02:36:49] had sold or given secrets. In fact, they
[02:36:52] had had betrayed our country, America.
[02:36:56] United States of America.
[02:36:57] >> Yeah.
[02:36:58] >> Guess what flag was flying underneath
[02:37:01] Snowden and me.
[02:37:03] >> What's that?
[02:37:03] >> No flag.
[02:37:06] We were considered
[02:37:08] to have no country.
[02:37:11] Professor Alfred describes you guys
[02:37:13] whistleblowers as or no it was no Daniel
[02:37:16] Ellberg the space walking astronauts
[02:37:18] whose umbilical cord has been
[02:37:19] disconnected from the mother ship. You
[02:37:22] are out there on your own.
[02:37:24] >> Yeah. Well, I effectively became a
[02:37:26] political prisoner in my own country.
[02:37:27] >> And remember, I never left the US. I
[02:37:30] stood and faced the music to say it that
[02:37:32] way. I wasn't going to hide out. I
[02:37:36] wasn't going to go somewhere else. I
[02:37:38] wasn't going to go run away.
[02:37:40] I decided to stand my ground
[02:37:45] >> as an American and you're still alive.
[02:37:46] >> You took an oath five times to support
[02:37:49] and defend a friaking piece of paper.
[02:37:52] >> Has anyone ever been accused you of
[02:37:54] being controlled op or like you're some
[02:37:57] limited op?
[02:37:57] >> They're doing that in the comments now
[02:37:59] because I said that
[02:38:01] >> Pam means well. If people are, you know,
[02:38:04] you're out.
[02:38:04] >> No, I've had people that still think
[02:38:06] that I'm basically I'm a front. There's
[02:38:08] people that want to believe that.
[02:38:09] >> Some people say, "I'm I don't know what
[02:38:10] you have to Nothing screams you're a
[02:38:13] front like being raided by the FBI and
[02:38:15] fired from the company you founded and
[02:38:17] sued 50 times." Nothing screams that.
[02:38:21] >> You people haven't done a damn thing.
[02:38:24] This guy suffered.
[02:38:27] And you don't understand how hard it is
[02:38:31] to try to get the reform.
[02:38:36] um
[02:38:39] you have suffered, you've given up a
[02:38:41] lot, but you're still alive. And and you
[02:38:43] know, one of the things people say is
[02:38:44] it's a kind of a taught a lot, you know,
[02:38:45] tautology or or perhaps a better word is
[02:38:47] paradox, which is they haven't killed
[02:38:50] you yet, so you must be controlled op.
[02:38:52] Do you get that?
[02:38:53] >> Yes. Oh, no. I've had people who've
[02:38:55] claimed that like as fact. I have to be
[02:38:58] a controlled op
[02:38:59] >> because you're still alive.
[02:39:00] >> Because they don't. Yes. Oh, and I
[02:39:02] didn't end up in prison. There's always
[02:39:04] some reason why I'm a control box
[02:39:06] because I didn't actually end up in
[02:39:07] prison.
[02:39:07] >> Do you think that's because they that's
[02:39:09] that mirror thing they're not doing the
[02:39:12] thing so in order to make themselves
[02:39:14] feel comfortable
[02:39:15] >> like I'm not getting my ass off the
[02:39:17] couch like Ed Snowden did or Thomas
[02:39:20] Drake did. I don't want to think about
[02:39:22] dying for many reasons. One of which is
[02:39:25] I'm not a real Christian. So is that
[02:39:28] what that is? Kind of a I need to
[02:39:30] destroy the reflection in the mirror.
[02:39:32] That's part of it.
[02:39:33] >> Whether it's John Q Citizen in the
[02:39:36] comments or it's um Michael Hayden.
[02:39:41] >> Yeah. Or you throw Vanta Black at the
[02:39:43] mirror. Vanta Black. Super black.
[02:39:45] >> Say, say that again.
[02:39:46] >> Vanta Black.
[02:39:47] >> Vanta Black. What do you mean?
[02:39:48] >> Vanta Black is a black that when you
[02:39:50] paint the object with Vanta Black, it
[02:39:53] basically hides the very object that
[02:39:55] it's painted on.
[02:39:56] >> Yeah.
[02:39:57] >> It's that black. So if you throw Vanta
[02:39:59] Black at a mirror, guess what? the
[02:40:01] mirror disappears.
[02:40:03] >> And I asked you this question last night
[02:40:05] and you said something very profound. Is
[02:40:06] it that they
[02:40:08] do they hate you or do they have the
[02:40:11] capacity because people are very phony
[02:40:14] as you know there's a there's this
[02:40:16] performative democracy. There's
[02:40:18] narcissism. There's there's phonism.
[02:40:21] Do these people really give a damn about
[02:40:23] you or is they so in their own
[02:40:26] narcissistic shell that like what do
[02:40:28] they really think when they brush their
[02:40:29] teeth at night? If I go to the darkest
[02:40:32] side of the human nature, then it's a
[02:40:34] projection.
[02:40:34] >> What do you mean?
[02:40:35] >> It's a it's a it's basically a dark
[02:40:37] projection of their own ego.
[02:40:39] >> So they have to they have to label it.
[02:40:41] They have to box it
[02:40:44] because if you actually were to confront
[02:40:46] it directly within yourself, it becomes
[02:40:49] extremely uncomfortable. You would have
[02:40:50] to face certain the realities of your
[02:40:52] own
[02:40:53] >> about your own nature.
[02:40:54] >> And why would you? The ego protects
[02:40:56] itself against that. Typically
[02:40:59] >> the ego
[02:40:59] >> it doesn't want to go there. The ego
[02:41:01] puts armor puts all these ar layers of
[02:41:04] armor up to protect itself
[02:41:07] >> because the ego is extraordinarily
[02:41:09] vulnerable.
[02:41:12] And of course if you're in positions of
[02:41:14] power you've got mechanisms by which you
[02:41:16] can protect yourself.
[02:41:17] >> Yeah. 99.9% of the people I bust there
[02:41:20] was one guy a 24 year old kid who
[02:41:22] started crying and saying I'm sorry I
[02:41:24] shouldn't have done it. But 99.99%
[02:41:27] of the people I bust do not atone for
[02:41:29] their sins. They do not say, "I really
[02:41:33] made a mistake. There's a bad part of my
[02:41:35] heart. I did something wrong." People
[02:41:37] just don't do that. The ego, as you say,
[02:41:40] takes over. And they must protect
[02:41:43] themselves and provide a shield and
[02:41:44] armorament.
[02:41:46] >> That's why even as a human being, while
[02:41:48] I'm still here,
[02:41:49] >> every day I wake up and I surrender
[02:41:51] myself even more
[02:41:52] >> to God.
[02:41:53] >> Yes. to Jesus,
[02:41:54] >> my creator, my Lord and Savior.
[02:41:57] >> And has this experience brought you
[02:41:59] closer to God?
[02:42:00] >> Yes. Far more than I can even begin to
[02:42:02] describe in words.
[02:42:04] >> It's a living reality at a at a
[02:42:07] extraordinary level. I
[02:42:09] >> mean, my advice is that you I think you
[02:42:11] should if you haven't written the book
[02:42:13] or finished writing the book, you should
[02:42:14] you should do that. You should write
[02:42:16] down your story as [snorts] soon as you
[02:42:18] can because I think just getting all
[02:42:21] this on paper and trying to put it in
[02:42:23] words would be a good thing for humanity
[02:42:25] and for yourself.
[02:42:26] >> I am in the process of writing a book
[02:42:28] about all of this
[02:42:30] and it does have to go through
[02:42:33] NSA pre-publication review and that is
[02:42:36] its own process. and and the guy that
[02:42:38] got in trouble for that m um uh the
[02:42:40] mustache guy um Bolton is your opinion
[02:42:44] that he was a little sloppy with
[02:42:46] >> I'm not sure because I don't trust
[02:42:48] anything the government alleges given my
[02:42:51] own experience and others it's very easy
[02:42:53] to frame you because they have the high
[02:42:55] ground
[02:42:57] >> people
[02:42:58] >> it's possible but
[02:42:59] >> people you talk about
[02:43:00] >> and a lot of people don't like him
[02:43:04] >> you talk about distrust of of
[02:43:06] >> I don't trust. So this is a fundamental
[02:43:08] who do you trust
[02:43:10] >> and where does your loyalty lie?
[02:43:12] >> Yes,
[02:43:12] >> most people's loyalty I have found um
[02:43:16] this is my experience and this is
[02:43:18] certainly true of politics. They they
[02:43:20] have silver bullet titus. If I elect
[02:43:23] Trump they'll solve the problems. Let me
[02:43:25] give you a more spec less abstract
[02:43:26] example. well-meaning people here in the
[02:43:29] Palm Beaches. I had lunch with an
[02:43:31] individual the other day and they said,
[02:43:33] "I don't understand. Donald Trump is the
[02:43:35] president. Can't he help you?" And those
[02:43:39] same people will say, "But they they'll
[02:43:42] even say, you know," and I'm kind of
[02:43:43] addressing the audience here because
[02:43:45] they're listening. They'll even say,
[02:43:46] "You're going a Why are you going after
[02:43:49] Trump by exposing Epstein stuff? Why are
[02:43:52] you going?" So people, they're very
[02:43:53] they're very it's very manakian. They
[02:43:55] they view the lens in terms of party and
[02:43:57] loyalty to politicians. And is that
[02:44:00] because the human mind its simplest
[02:44:02] explanation is let me let me elect this
[02:44:04] guy and he'll solve my problems.
[02:44:06] >> One of the dangers with the hum with
[02:44:08] human condition is it's easy to have a
[02:44:11] strong man comes along and history is
[02:44:14] replete with this. There there was there
[02:44:16] was all kinds of books written about the
[02:44:18] good German during the Nazi era. Why
[02:44:20] would so many good Germans go along with
[02:44:24] it? Now, of course, a lot of people
[02:44:25] left.
[02:44:25] >> Is that Ordinary Man by Browning or
[02:44:29] >> Ordinary? Yes. But the good German,
[02:44:31] >> right?
[02:44:33] >> Look, you had food, you were secure in
[02:44:37] your house, you had money, right?
[02:44:41] So, yeah, he wanted to go off and start
[02:44:43] fighting wars. [snorts]
[02:44:48] He was a megalomaniac of enormous
[02:44:50] proportions, but he isn't the only one
[02:44:52] in history
[02:44:54] and teen millions of people died.
[02:44:58] >> Um,
[02:44:59] >> why? Right.
[02:45:01] >> Benality of evil. Uh, Hannah Arent, what
[02:45:04] was the name of that?
[02:45:05] >> Hannah Arent.
[02:45:06] >> And who is that?
[02:45:07] >> She's a famous German political
[02:45:09] philosopher.
[02:45:10] >> The benality of evil was with is within
[02:45:13] us all.
[02:45:14] >> Yes. It was a phrase she well she wrote
[02:45:17] it because she was dealing with remember
[02:45:19] there was a couple of different trials
[02:45:21] with those who came out of the Nazi era
[02:45:25] and this was an article she published in
[02:45:28] the 60s. One of the senior leaders was
[02:45:31] actually put on trial and he had no
[02:45:33] remorse for what he did. So she referred
[02:45:36] to it as ban out of evil. my
[02:45:38] interpretation of that and she wrote the
[02:45:40] origins of totalitarianism a
[02:45:42] extraordinary book in terms of getting
[02:45:44] behind why why is there totalitarianism?
[02:45:48] Why is there this tendency even in
[02:45:50] democratic societies to drift into
[02:45:53] autocracies or some version of
[02:45:55] autocracy? Democracy is actually you
[02:45:58] know it's just it's very fragile really
[02:46:01] is even even our unique form of
[02:46:04] democracy which is a constitutional
[02:46:05] republic. Look what happened to the R
[02:46:07] remember part of it were modeled after
[02:46:09] the Roman Empire in part in English
[02:46:12] common law.
[02:46:15] It's just the way things drift. But the
[02:46:18] benity of evil people don't show up you
[02:46:20] know in in you know a red jumpsuit red
[02:46:23] jumpsuit and horns.
[02:46:25] >> Yeah.
[02:46:25] >> It's in measured tones. It's through
[02:46:27] it's through statistics and numbers and
[02:46:30] a [snorts] lot of performative
[02:46:34] >> a lot of performative
[02:46:35] >> performative democracy.
[02:46:36] >> Yes.
[02:46:36] >> A phrase I've never heard before.
[02:46:38] >> But for me democracy has now become
[02:46:39] democracy but isy not acy. It's the
[02:46:44] hypocrisy of democracy.
[02:46:46] >> Do do you do you find yourself alienated
[02:46:48] from other people?
[02:46:49] >> Yes.
[02:46:50] >> Describe that. Um,
[02:46:53] there was a period when I was facing
[02:46:57] some pretty severe consequences,
[02:46:59] potentially the rest of my life in
[02:47:00] prison.
[02:47:02] >> I know exactly what it means to
[02:47:04] experience a thousand yard stare. There
[02:47:07] was a phrase that was actually
[02:47:08] attributed to World War I veterans
[02:47:10] coming back from the front lines in
[02:47:12] Europe.
[02:47:13] >> You with the thousand yard or others
[02:47:15] toward you?
[02:47:15] >> No, the thousand yard stare. Total
[02:47:18] isolation. Everybody, you know,
[02:47:21] >> did you have one friend outside?
[02:47:23] >> Yeah, a couple.
[02:47:24] >> You did have a couple friends.
[02:47:25] >> Oh, yeah. There was people There was
[02:47:26] people childhood friends knew me knew me
[02:47:29] knew me before everything happened,
[02:47:32] >> including my best friend in the
[02:47:33] military.
[02:47:33] >> And you still have them as a friend.
[02:47:35] >> Yes.
[02:47:35] >> Well, that's good. At least you have
[02:47:36] >> Well, one of them actually created the
[02:47:38] Tom Drake's uh the Save Tom Drake
[02:47:40] Facebook page. I didn't know it at the
[02:47:42] time, but he decided to put with it with
[02:47:44] his family decided to put together a
[02:47:46] Facebook page just to keep up with what
[02:47:47] was happening to me. This was after I
[02:47:48] was right after I was indicted.
[02:47:50] >> I have a complicated question that I
[02:47:51] never figured out the answer to and it
[02:47:53] might be hard for me to articulate this
[02:47:54] question. And if you're just tuning in
[02:47:56] live, this will go on Spotify, YouTube,
[02:47:59] everywhere podcast go. You're listening
[02:48:01] to Thomas Drake, legendary 21st century
[02:48:05] whistleblower who inspired Ed Snowden.
[02:48:06] Thomas Drake blew the whistle on the
[02:48:08] NSA. Thomas Drake worked for the Air
[02:48:10] Force. He was a crypto linguist. He
[02:48:11] intercepted signals. He worked for the
[02:48:13] CIA in 1989. and then went on to work on
[02:48:15] the NSA before blowing the whistle in
[02:48:17] the early early 2000s. And he joins me
[02:48:19] here today. Complicated question.
[02:48:23] You know the phrase, a friend will will
[02:48:25] help you bury the body. That that that
[02:48:27] old phrase about loyalty. And I think
[02:48:29] there's virtue in loyalty. I do. I think
[02:48:31] I mean, you know, I you need loyalty.
[02:48:34] Discretion is the better part of valor
[02:48:36] to to to you know, we all we're all
[02:48:39] sinners. We need friends. Friendship is
[02:48:41] a good thing in life. Loyalty is a good
[02:48:42] thing in life.
[02:48:43] >> We're not islands. Correct. No man is an
[02:48:46] island.
[02:48:46] >> No.
[02:48:47] >> But yet you also need to be truth
[02:48:49] truthful. And and I and I was always
[02:48:51] trying to figure out how do you
[02:48:52] reconcile because there's a there's a
[02:48:53] danger here. You create a society of
[02:48:55] rats and tattletales. I'm sure I know I
[02:48:58] know.
[02:48:58] >> Oh, I've been accused of that.
[02:48:59] >> They accused you of that. I don't view
[02:49:01] you that way.
[02:49:02] >> But there's the there's an element of
[02:49:04] that concern for people. They don't want
[02:49:06] to be a tattletail. And and there's like
[02:49:09] these two competing virtues, which is
[02:49:11] friendship and loyalty. I'm talking
[02:49:13] about, you all know what I'm talking
[02:49:14] about. You your best friend helps you
[02:49:16] bury the body in the desert versus
[02:49:20] that's a murder. I got to blow the
[02:49:21] whistle on my friend. How do you
[02:49:22] reconcile those two competing virtues?
[02:49:25] Real real question.
[02:49:28] >> Well, then it's not a real friend if
[02:49:29] you're actually bearing the body.
[02:49:34] >> Yeah. [laughter]
[02:49:37] >> See, the true friends that were left,
[02:49:40] not the new ones I made. I've made a
[02:49:41] whole set of new acquaintances, friends,
[02:49:45] someone I'm quite close to as a result
[02:49:46] of what happened to me and what I'm now
[02:49:50] call I'm an asterict an asterisk
[02:49:52] American
[02:49:53] >> aster.
[02:49:54] >> I'm not because I'm the government decid
[02:49:56] I was I was a Benedict Arnold. So I'm
[02:49:58] not a real American. I'm not a true
[02:49:59] American because I betrayed my country.
[02:50:02] So I'm an aster American. I'm still an
[02:50:04] American. I'm still a citizen
[02:50:06] but I'm not a real American. M
[02:50:09] >> a real American wouldn't have quote in
[02:50:11] their eyes their eyes wouldn't have done
[02:50:13] what I did
[02:50:15] but the true friends they looked right
[02:50:17] into the mirror
[02:50:19] >> they looked
[02:50:20] >> they never blinked
[02:50:21] >> they looked into the mirror
[02:50:22] >> yes
[02:50:23] >> to look at themselves
[02:50:24] >> yes
[02:50:25] >> wow those are who your real friends are
[02:50:27] >> yes
[02:50:28] >> that's actually very profound they they
[02:50:30] they did not uh throw the black stuff at
[02:50:32] the mirror
[02:50:33] >> the vanta black
[02:50:34] >> the vant black
[02:50:34] >> that's right
[02:50:35] >> oh I I I say that they smash the mirror
[02:50:37] they have to smash the mirror Well, some
[02:50:39] don't even want to do that because see,
[02:50:40] that would be Oh my gosh. Because they
[02:50:42] have to make it the appearance
[02:50:44] >> in front of the mirror,
[02:50:44] >> right? You you make it fully opaque.
[02:50:47] >> I see. Okay.
[02:50:48] >> But that's your own ego. Basically,
[02:50:50] you're you're basically think of the
[02:50:52] pain as your ego. You're throwing your
[02:50:54] dark ego, that side of your ego onto the
[02:50:56] mirror.
[02:50:58] >> But ultimately, the mirror is yourself.
[02:51:00] >> That is interesting. Your friends I'm
[02:51:02] just I'm just learning something as I
[02:51:03] sit here. I never thought about that
[02:51:05] way. Your friends are the ones who are
[02:51:07] able to introspect
[02:51:08] and atone for their own
[02:51:11] >> yes
[02:51:12] >> inadequacies or or
[02:51:13] >> Yes.
[02:51:14] >> Okay.
[02:51:15] >> At a deeply human level, but I can count
[02:51:17] them on one hand.
[02:51:20] >> Met
[02:51:20] >> one hand.
[02:51:21] >> You can count those people on one hand.
[02:51:23] >> No, this is before. The ones that
[02:51:24] remained, the ones that were not fair
[02:51:27] weather, the ones that's as much as they
[02:51:30] were concerned about my well-being and
[02:51:32] what would happen and everything else,
[02:51:34] they never lost faith in who I was
[02:51:37] because they knew me as who I was before
[02:51:40] everything happened. They knew the real
[02:51:42] me. They knew my faith even before it
[02:51:46] all happened.
[02:51:48] >> And I I hope you don't mind me asking a
[02:51:49] personal question, but I I I'm curious,
[02:51:51] if you don't answer, that's fine. How
[02:51:52] about your your wife? Did Did she know
[02:51:55] >> we reconciled?
[02:51:56] >> Reconcile. Reconciliation. That's that's
[02:51:59] got to be hard going through that. You
[02:52:01] got to find a partner who's basically
[02:52:03] willing to go to jail with you.
[02:52:06] >> Yes.
[02:52:06] >> Even though you didn't break the law,
[02:52:07] they accused you of breaking the law.
[02:52:09] >> Oh, no. Even the public defenders, they
[02:52:10] there was a meeting right before is
[02:52:12] everything was still pre-trial. So,
[02:52:14] we're now entering the was the 13th
[02:52:16] month from the time that I was actually
[02:52:19] um indicted. So now we're talking the
[02:52:20] May of May of 2011.
[02:52:22] >> Mhm.
[02:52:25] >> They came to the house and put huge
[02:52:28] pressure
[02:52:29] while my wife is there because we're
[02:52:31] reconciled. You've got to plead out,
[02:52:33] Tom, for the sake of your family.
[02:52:37] >> For the sake of your family, just like
[02:52:38] with Michael Flynn, they go after the
[02:52:40] family. And if they can't go after the
[02:52:42] family, they'll make something up. I was
[02:52:44] willing and she had accepted to her
[02:52:46] credit that I could end up in prison.
[02:52:50] >> What do you mean she accepted it?
[02:52:51] >> She accepted that it could happen.
[02:52:54] >> She was at peace with that.
[02:52:55] >> Yes. As difficult as that would be.
[02:52:58] >> Well, that's a very special woman, I
[02:53:00] would say.
[02:53:01] >> Yes. very special woman
[02:53:03] >> because I'm well aware that
[02:53:05] whistleblowers
[02:53:06] go through h e double hell when it comes
[02:53:10] to what happens to many of them and
[02:53:12] their closest relationships.
[02:53:14] >> What was the most horrible thing or
[02:53:16] moment the the worst
[02:53:19] moment or worst part of this hell for
[02:53:21] you that you overcame? You did overcome
[02:53:23] it. If you think back over the last 20
[02:53:25] years is was there a moment in space and
[02:53:27] time like this is just so this is like
[02:53:29] your almost your breaking point. It's
[02:53:31] when I was separated from my wife.
[02:53:33] >> Yeah.
[02:53:34] >> It was It was the depths of despair.
[02:53:37] I I was not living because I was kicked
[02:53:40] out. I just be very direct. I was kicked
[02:53:42] out of the house.
[02:53:44] >> Yeah. It's never the It's never the
[02:53:46] enemy. It's always the the person that's
[02:53:48] with you that quits or leaves or
[02:53:50] >> That hurt. It hurt because I could not
[02:53:53] I couldn't because obviously I had
[02:53:55] betrayed her. See, I mean this you're
[02:53:57] now back to the fundamentals here. I I
[02:54:00] betrayed her.
[02:54:03] >> There's almost a par listening to you
[02:54:05] talk. There's almost a paradox of the
[02:54:08] human condition. I don't know what to
[02:54:09] call it, but
[02:54:11] >> that's why I cry and this is why I'll
[02:54:13] cry. I cry for humanity. I don't want
[02:54:15] I've said this and I'll say it to you in
[02:54:17] a different way on on your show live
[02:54:19] here. I don't want anybody else or even
[02:54:23] the rest of the world to go through what
[02:54:26] I did. I don't remember. Remember, I'm
[02:54:29] not the only one that's gone through
[02:54:31] these kinds of trials and tribulations.
[02:54:35] Now, it's true that after having gone
[02:54:37] through all these and my cancer more
[02:54:40] recently, which put me right on the edge
[02:54:42] again,
[02:54:43] the only thing left in life is life
[02:54:46] itself. And that's why for me, the only
[02:54:49] thing that remains is a truth away, and
[02:54:52] the life. That's that's that's [snorts]
[02:54:56] encapsulated my faith that there is only
[02:54:59] one path in the end and that's the path
[02:55:01] I choose. I choose no other path. I
[02:55:03] cannot choose the path of man because I
[02:55:05] know where that dead ends.
[02:55:08] So, but I don't want because I'm afraid
[02:55:11] I think things are going to get worse. I
[02:55:13] really do. I think that the world is is
[02:55:19] struggling. I think the world is in
[02:55:21] tribulation. It's groaning. Um, and
[02:55:24] we're coming to the end of the age of
[02:55:25] man at some point here in the future.
[02:55:28] >> When do you think that's going to
[02:55:29] happen?
[02:55:30] >> I know. This is even Jesus Christ said
[02:55:32] that no one knows the day or the hour
[02:55:33] except the father.
[02:55:35] >> In the next hundred years, next our
[02:55:37] lifetimes, who knows?
[02:55:38] >> If if you some would if you count from
[02:55:41] the date time that Adam and Eve are
[02:55:43] created, some would say the age of man
[02:55:45] is 6,000 years. So, we're certainly
[02:55:47] approaching that point.
[02:55:50] stuff gets real spiritual real fast,
[02:55:52] doesn't it?
[02:55:53] >> Incredibly spiritual.
[02:55:54] >> Like almost instantaneously.
[02:55:55] >> Yes, it does. But I I'm increasingly
[02:55:57] living in both worlds at the same time.
[02:55:59] Now
[02:56:00] >> I'm physically here. I manifest as a
[02:56:02] flesh and blood human being.
[02:56:04] >> But there's a whole new being that's
[02:56:06] that is now being created inside of me.
[02:56:10] And there's a whole another life that
[02:56:12] awaits.
[02:56:14] >> Are you are you political? Are you
[02:56:15] independent? Are you what's your your
[02:56:17] politics? For the longest time, and this
[02:56:19] is interesting in terms of history, I
[02:56:21] was a registered Republican.
[02:56:23] Didn't always vote Republican or
[02:56:25] Democrat. I tended to vote independent.
[02:56:28] >> I'm a registered independent
[02:56:30] >> in the state of Maryland.
[02:56:32] >> I'm affiliate with no party.
[02:56:36] Um, we only have a couple minutes left
[02:56:38] and I could talk to you for many more
[02:56:40] hours about all the things that you the
[02:56:44] facts of your life, but I was more
[02:56:46] interested in talking to you about
[02:56:48] >> I think the spiritual aspects the
[02:56:50] >> it's only been recently that I've
[02:56:52] actually started sharing that. But I
[02:56:53] think that's part
[02:56:55] >> the audience is loving it. They they
[02:56:56] they really admire you and and um
[02:56:59] >> look I have nowhere else to go. Remember
[02:57:01] there's nothing else left when all else
[02:57:03] is taken away. when all else there's
[02:57:06] only one place I could go to.
[02:57:09] That play was always secure. That was
[02:57:12] always a secure part of my life. It was
[02:57:14] never in doubt. No matter how dark the
[02:57:17] even in the darkest days and mornings
[02:57:21] and remember I I would have you call the
[02:57:23] night sweats.
[02:57:25] >> Me too.
[02:57:26] >> Waking up in the middle of the night.
[02:57:28] >> Yep.
[02:57:29] >> I found myself I had PTSD. It got the
[02:57:32] pressures enormous.
[02:57:34] There was at one point I actually
[02:57:35] started
[02:57:37] I had I'm it's I haven't said this in a
[02:57:39] long time. I had it's a special medical
[02:57:42] condition where you you're under such
[02:57:44] extraordinary stress that you actually
[02:57:47] start forming in your sweat blood starts
[02:57:49] coming out
[02:57:53] which probably led in part to my body
[02:57:55] breaking down after everything happened
[02:57:58] and I ended with cancer for
[02:58:01] >> it didn't help.
[02:58:02] >> It did not help. It did not help stress
[02:58:05] >> and I was sitting there wondering, is
[02:58:07] this my time? I've been through so many
[02:58:09] near-death experiences or been
[02:58:11] confronted by death and evil that here
[02:58:14] was I'm now I now have lymphoma and it
[02:58:17] was stage four. It invaded it invaded my
[02:58:19] bone marrow. It invaded my kids.
[02:58:21] >> You overcame that too.
[02:58:22] >> I overcame that too. And so if anything,
[02:58:25] I hope I would hope but it's not me. I
[02:58:28] It's important for me to share with you
[02:58:29] James. None of this is me. I attribute
[02:58:32] all of it to my creator.
[02:58:35] >> None of it is me. It sounds like a
[02:58:37] miracle.
[02:58:38] >> It sounds like a miracle.
[02:58:40] >> But if it serves as inspiration, if it
[02:58:42] serves as hope for others,
[02:58:43] >> it's a mixed message to this audience
[02:58:45] because I don't think they want to
[02:58:47] endure the pain that you've endured and
[02:58:50] yet you overcame it and you're still
[02:58:52] here today. You know, someone said to me
[02:58:54] recently, I was complaining to someone
[02:58:56] about how little time I had and they
[02:58:58] said, you know, James, you have all the
[02:59:00] time in the world. You're going to live
[02:59:01] another 40 years, 50 years. You know who
[02:59:03] doesn't have any more time? Charlie
[02:59:04] Kirk.
[02:59:07] >> We're still here. You're still alive.
[02:59:09] >> Yeah.
[02:59:10] >> They didn't They did not break you.
[02:59:11] >> They did not. It was
[02:59:13] >> They did not break.
[02:59:14] >> In the end, I was vindicated. That's
[02:59:16] true. It is. It was considered a victory
[02:59:19] against the government. One of the rare
[02:59:20] ones.
[02:59:22] >> If you're just tuning in, we're talking
[02:59:23] to Thomas Drake. We're about to rap.
[02:59:26] Thomas Drake. You know who Edward
[02:59:28] Snowden is. If there hadn't been a
[02:59:31] Thomas Drake, there wouldn't be an
[02:59:33] Edward Snowden. He Thomas Drake blew the
[02:59:35] whistle on the National Security Agency.
[02:59:38] You think it takes balls to blow the
[02:59:39] whistle on your municipal government or
[02:59:41] the 8A fraudsters
[02:59:44] at your uh your fraudulent
[02:59:46] subcontractors? This guy blew the
[02:59:47] whistle on Fort me, Maryland. You're on
[02:59:50] the show called The Price is My Life.
[02:59:52] And one of the last questions I want to
[02:59:53] ask you is,
[02:59:55] you know, this is a very direct uh uh
[02:59:58] statement. Uh, my price is my life. Has
[03:00:02] anyone tried to bribe you? Like people
[03:00:04] are trying to hurt you, but has anyone
[03:00:05] tried to offer you things? Yes.
[03:00:07] >> To not tell the truth? Talk about that.
[03:00:10] >> When I was still at NSA,
[03:00:13] there was all kinds of pressure to leave
[03:00:15] NSA and go back to being a contractor.
[03:00:18] Remember, I I took a pretty good hit on
[03:00:22] my income when I joined NSA as a senior
[03:00:24] executive. I was doing really well. I
[03:00:26] was a principal in a boutique.com at the
[03:00:29] time. I was doing all kinds of
[03:00:31] traveling. I was doing consulting in
[03:00:33] Silicon Valley. It was, you know, it was
[03:00:35] it was the go- go days in terms of of
[03:00:38] that space. And in fact, people
[03:00:41] questioned my sanity coming coming to
[03:00:44] serving my country again, feeling that
[03:00:46] call to serve my country again at a very
[03:00:49] secret agency.
[03:00:51] but in a different job. A job I left
[03:00:54] because I was forced out of the first
[03:00:55] one, right? I was too too much to
[03:00:58] handle, I guess, for for them. So, I
[03:01:01] ended up in a more technical job. I was
[03:01:03] actually a a technical director for
[03:01:05] software engineering implementation
[03:01:06] enterprisewide. So, I was going back to
[03:01:09] my roots in terms of industry.
[03:01:13] One day this person shows up through the
[03:01:17] executive assistant scheduled a meeting
[03:01:19] with me and I had a small office and a
[03:01:21] little little conference table and this
[03:01:24] was like the what was the main building
[03:01:26] at NSA couple floors below the director
[03:01:29] suite.
[03:01:31] He proceeds to tell me, you know, with
[03:01:34] all you your background and all your
[03:01:36] contacts and industry and everything
[03:01:38] else, how would you like to quadruple
[03:01:40] your salary?
[03:01:43] And that's just base.
[03:01:46] I was being enticed
[03:01:49] on money alone because money does talk.
[03:01:53] >> Money talks. I was being enticed to
[03:01:56] return to industry and instead of making
[03:01:59] 140 50,000 at that point, I can now make
[03:02:03] 600,000 minimum before bonuses.
[03:02:09] And I said, you know, you're actually in
[03:02:12] violation. And I started listing off
[03:02:14] what he was in violation of, and he
[03:02:16] backed right out of my office. I never
[03:02:18] saw him again.
[03:02:19] >> You didn't even think about taking the
[03:02:21] money? Nope, I did not because there's
[03:02:24] way more to life than money.
[03:02:27] >> From your words to everyone else's ears.
[03:02:30] Um, well, is there anything else I
[03:02:33] didn't touch that you want to address
[03:02:34] for our audience?
[03:02:37] >> Because of the oath I took to support
[03:02:40] and defend the Constitution five times
[03:02:41] in my government service to this
[03:02:43] country, the country I still love, that
[03:02:46] flag, I can't begin to tell you what it
[03:02:47] means to me, okay? I can get emotional
[03:02:50] about it because it really still means
[03:02:52] something to me. It's a symbol, but it
[03:02:56] is our flag.
[03:02:58] >> But I made I made a commitment when all
[03:03:01] of this happened after all this
[03:03:03] happened,
[03:03:05] no matter what else happened, that I
[03:03:07] would dedicate the rest of my life to
[03:03:09] defending life, liberty, and the pursuit
[03:03:10] of happiness. Mhm.
[03:03:12] >> those extraordinary world words in the
[03:03:15] Declaration of Independence, the very
[03:03:17] foundational basis for why we had the
[03:03:20] American Revolution.
[03:03:22] And those are inable rights.
[03:03:25] They're amongst a number of them, but
[03:03:27] those are at the heart of the American
[03:03:29] experience.
[03:03:34] Well, we um we admire I admire you and
[03:03:38] I'm and I'm happy to know you. And one
[03:03:40] of the blessings of both of our lives is
[03:03:42] that we met each other.
[03:03:43] >> Yes.
[03:03:44] >> You know, this crazy
[03:03:46] >> and all the topsyturvy world,
[03:03:48] >> topsyturvy journey of 20 years to here
[03:03:51] you are in
[03:03:51] >> in the studio in Florida. And
[03:03:54] >> that's you are a real human being. You
[03:03:56] just don't wear costumes on occasion.
[03:03:58] [laughter]
[03:03:59] >> Yes, there is a human a $10 wig, right?
[03:04:02] That's all it takes. That's another
[03:04:04] thing on a on a on a funny note. People
[03:04:06] are people are very inspired. I'm
[03:04:08] looking at the comments and people are
[03:04:10] genuinely inspired. It's a breath of
[03:04:12] fresh air, I think, for people to hear
[03:04:14] this. But I am a human being and so are
[03:04:16] you. and and um I think it's hard
[03:04:22] because
[03:04:24] you know that you know it's it's hard to
[03:04:25] to to to go through that pain but it it
[03:04:29] it makes you it it's so cliche but it it
[03:04:32] it makes you stronger even through my my
[03:04:36] I don't want to make this about me but I
[03:04:38] I have not been through what you've been
[03:04:40] through but betrayal was the hardest
[03:04:42] thing I've ever been through.
[03:04:43] >> Yeah. Well, it reminds, you know, it
[03:04:44] reminds me of of Daniel. Remember, he
[03:04:47] went into the lion's den. That's, you
[03:04:48] know, it's the story that's told in the
[03:04:50] Old Testament in the book of Daniel.
[03:04:53] >> And people thought, "Oh my gosh, what's
[03:04:55] going to happen to you? You're going
[03:04:56] into the lion's den." That that that
[03:04:58] phrase has been passed on over the
[03:05:02] centuries plus, millennia since going
[03:05:05] into the lion's den. I really I was and
[03:05:07] that lion was roaring. That lion really
[03:05:10] wanted to take me out. The NSA is the
[03:05:12] ultimate lion's den.
[03:05:14] >> But the you know what the what what the
[03:05:15] irony is in all this? There are very
[03:05:17] good people who continue to work silent
[03:05:20] sentinels doing their job day in and day
[03:05:22] out on behalf of America.
[03:05:26] >> Not everybody's correct
[03:05:27] >> in the intelligence community.
[03:05:28] >> That's correct.
[03:05:29] >> When I went everybody's correct went to
[03:05:31] Langley and did the story on the one CIA
[03:05:33] guy who was bragging in the bar about
[03:05:35] withholding information and they fired
[03:05:37] him. When I went to Langley and I inter
[03:05:40] and I was doing [snorts] my standup,
[03:05:41] people were driving out of Langley at
[03:05:43] six o'clock after work opening their
[03:05:45] window say keep it up James O'Keefe.
[03:05:49] >> So I I think you're right. I think you
[03:05:50] know whatever. There's a lot of people
[03:05:52] there that are decent people.
[03:05:54] >> Yes.
[03:05:55] >> But it
[03:05:56] >> but they're not they're not going to
[03:05:57] stand out. They're not going to take any
[03:05:59] risks.
[03:06:00] >> Well, let me go full circle and y
[03:06:03] >> are you are you decent if you don't
[03:06:06] stand up? But they're they're they're
[03:06:08] decent people. They're salt of the earth
[03:06:10] people. They they agree with you and
[03:06:12] you're giving them a voice. [snorts]
[03:06:15] And I I will say one thing at the end of
[03:06:18] this show, which is that
[03:06:22] there
[03:06:24] to be a leader, you have to be you have
[03:06:26] to acknowledge the ugliness of reality
[03:06:28] while also being auspicious while also
[03:06:31] casting a vision and saying, "Here's
[03:06:33] what we need to do." And there will be
[03:06:35] whistleblowers that come forward. I can
[03:06:37] tell you that right now cuz I'm talking
[03:06:38] to them and they may be learning
[03:06:40] something from this conversation and
[03:06:42] they may be the world has changed I
[03:06:45] think better than it was in 2005 2006
[03:06:48] 2007. There's the internet now. There's
[03:06:50] more voices now. They will come forward.
[03:06:53] I will make sure of it. And in order for
[03:06:56] them in order for them to be affected
[03:06:57] they're going to have to go through me.
[03:07:00] >> So thank you Thomas Drake for that.
[03:07:02] Yeah,
[03:07:04] >> you are not only living, but you're
[03:07:06] exercising the First Amendment, the
[03:07:08] cornerstone of the entire Bill of
[03:07:11] Rights.
[03:07:11] >> And if they and if they win, if the
[03:07:13] powers that be defeat that, that would
[03:07:16] be so it's such an existential
[03:07:19] >> remember
[03:07:20] >> what Franklin said in response to a
[03:07:23] woman reporter who actually came up to
[03:07:26] him after that secret conclave, the
[03:07:28] Constitution Convention. What did you
[03:07:30] guys do?
[03:07:43] in precious metals and regular stocks or
[03:07:46] mutual stocks or mutual funds.
[03:07:48] >> Uh I mean the easiest answer I can give
[03:07:50] you to that is there's with gold,
[03:07:52] silver, precious metals in general,
[03:07:53] there's no counterparty risk. So when I
[03:07:56] say counterparty risk uh with a stock
[03:07:59] for example if we look at uh let's say
[03:08:02] Apple the entire board is one of your
[03:08:04] counterparties the CEO Tim Cook is one
[03:08:07] of your counterparties the staff that is
[03:08:10] responsible for developing products um
[03:08:14] marketing those are counterparties so
[03:08:16] you have risk in the success or failure
[03:08:20] of that individual counterparty with
[03:08:22] gold and silver there's no counterparty
[03:08:24] there's no CEO O of gold. There's no CEO
[03:08:26] of silver. It's a tangible asset that
[03:08:30] you own. In the case of a bond, right,
[03:08:33] we'll use the US Treasury, right? The
[03:08:36] counterpart is the United States
[03:08:37] government. And uh right now there's a
[03:08:40] little bit of lack of faith that exists
[03:08:43] in the uh United States government andor
[03:08:45] its ability to make good on its debt.
[03:08:48] >> What types of investment portfolios
[03:08:50] would benefit from exposure to gold?
[03:08:52] >> I mean, any and all. My uh I think one
[03:08:54] of the most misleading things that uh
[03:08:56] people are told uh is that they have a
[03:09:00] well well- diversified portfolio of
[03:09:02] stocks, bonds, mutual funds, bond funds
[03:09:05] and the reality of that situation is
[03:09:07] they own one single asset class which is
[03:09:09] they own securities. So alight they
[03:09:11] might be diversified within a single
[03:09:14] asset class, they're not truly
[03:09:16] diversified. True diversification would
[03:09:19] be that you have a portfolio that exists
[03:09:22] of multiple asset classes that are
[03:09:24] noncorrelated.
[03:09:26] So somebody with a portfolio of stocks,
[03:09:29] bonds, mutual funds, and bond funds
[03:09:32] would need to have gold and silver
[03:09:34] outside of that portfolio in order to
[03:09:37] call it a true portfolio hedge.
[03:09:39] >> As of the time of this recording, what
[03:09:41] is the price of gold?
[03:09:42] >> 3,800 and change. to give you the exact
[03:09:45] uh number, I would I would have to, you
[03:09:47] know,
[03:09:47] >> is that an all-time high?
[03:09:48] >> It's absolutely. We've had 38 new
[03:09:51] all-time highs uh this year alone. Uh
[03:09:54] last year, I believe we hit the 74
[03:09:57] all-time high mark.
[03:09:58] >> And what is that like compared to say 10
[03:10:00] years ago, 20 years ago?
[03:10:02] >> To give a little history, gold, if we
[03:10:04] look at just from the beginning of this
[03:10:06] century, right? So that's the year 2000,
[03:10:08] the beginning of this century, it's 25
[03:10:09] years ago. Gold itself has actually
[03:10:12] outperformed the entire S&P 500
[03:10:16] three-fold. Had you purchased gold in
[03:10:18] the year 2000, you're up 1,500% today.
[03:10:22] If you invested in the S&P 500 index and
[03:10:25] you reinvested all the dividends, you're
[03:10:28] up about 500% in change, right? So gold
[03:10:32] just hands down been an outperformer
[03:10:36] relative to the stock market, stock
[03:10:39] market indexes.
[03:10:40] >> Is there a risk getting exposure to gold
[03:10:42] now after that huge increase?
[03:10:44] >> All investments carry certain level of
[03:10:46] risk. So I'll give you the disclosure
[03:10:48] there. Um you know gold is what's called
[03:10:51] a tier one asset which is a central bank
[03:10:54] definition simply meaning that it is
[03:10:56] safe and it's liquid. Gold by definition
[03:10:59] of the central banks is a tier one
[03:11:00] asset. So that means it's a safe
[03:11:03] investment. It's literally one of the
[03:11:05] safest things that you can own in your
[03:11:07] portfolio. So once again, all
[03:11:10] investments carry a certain level of
[03:11:12] risk. But gold is considered to be the
[03:11:15] safest thing that you can own. Most
[03:11:17] people look at the price of gold today
[03:11:19] in nominal terms, meaning they simply
[03:11:23] look at it based on the dollar price of
[03:11:25] gold. But if we were to look at gold
[03:11:28] valued in other things, i.e. if we
[03:11:30] valued gold against, again, I'll go back
[03:11:33] to the S&P, the value of the S&P priced
[03:11:36] in gold, gold is still dirt cheap. And
[03:11:38] the same holds true with the NASDAQ or
[03:11:40] the Dow. Uh if we look at the price of
[03:11:43] gold relative to all the currency in
[03:11:45] circulation,
[03:11:47] gold is still dirt cheap. So, do I think
[03:11:50] now is still a great time to buy gold?
[03:11:52] Hands down, yes. Right now, I'm offering
[03:11:56] my followers in the trenches this
[03:11:58] incredible one-time opportunity to
[03:11:59] credit your account up to $10,000 in
[03:12:02] free gold and silver on a qualifying
[03:12:05] purchase. That's right. This will help
[03:12:06] you get started protecting your wealth
[03:12:08] with real physical gold and silver while
[03:12:12] these historic price levels are still
[03:12:14] within reach. Go to okemediagold.com.
[03:12:17] That's O'Keefeagold.com
[03:12:20] or call 833324-465383324
[03:12:27] gold. Again, that's okefemedold.com
[03:12:30] or 83324
[03:12:33] gold. Take action, get the facts, and
[03:12:35] protect your future because freedom
[03:12:37] isn't given, it's [music] secured. This
[03:12:40] is James O'Keefe. Don't just watch
[03:12:43] history, own a piece of it. What is your
[03:12:45] price?
[03:12:47] Because if your price is not your life,
[03:12:53] then you aren't for sale.
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