Untitled Document

[00:00:00] What is your price? [00:00:03] Because if your price is not your life, [00:00:09] then you are for sale. [00:00:14] Welcome back everyone to the Price is my [00:00:16] life with James O'Keefe long form [00:00:18] interview with a special guest John [00:00:21] Kiryaku. I want to make sure I get that [00:00:23] pronunciation correct. Who is a CIA [00:00:26] officer and whistleblower. This is going [00:00:28] to be very exciting. Uh there are [00:00:31] overlaps between what we do here at [00:00:33] Citizen Journalism Foundation and OMG [00:00:35] and the CIA, but we are not spies. We [00:00:37] are investigative reporters. This guy [00:00:40] was a literal spy, former CIA officer [00:00:42] and whistleblower who served from 1990 [00:00:45] to 2004, including postings in Greece. A [00:00:49] senior counterterrorism role in Pakistan [00:00:51] after the 911 terrorist attacks. He [00:00:53] participated in operations against [00:00:55] al-Qaeda, was involved in the 2002 raid [00:00:58] uh that first captured a really bad guy, [00:01:01] then believed to be a senior al-Qaeda [00:01:03] leader. December 2007, Kuryaku became [00:01:06] the first US government official to [00:01:08] publicly confirmed that the CIA used [00:01:10] waterboarding, explicitly calling it [00:01:12] torture. In 2012, he pleaded guilty to [00:01:15] violating the Intelligence Identities [00:01:16] Protection Act for sharing classified [00:01:18] info with a journalist and was sentenced [00:01:20] to 30 months in federal prison. So, we [00:01:22] both have that in common. Um, although I [00:01:25] didn't serve that long. Served three [00:01:27] years on house arrest in New Jersey. [00:01:30] >> Since his release, he has written and [00:01:31] spoken extensively on intel, torture, US [00:01:34] foreign policy, [00:01:35] >> while publicly alleging that he has been [00:01:37] unable to access the CIA pension without [00:01:39] a presidential pardon. So, I'd like to [00:01:41] begin by talking about a story we just [00:01:43] broke, uh, the former board member [00:01:47] Matthew Tiramond. And I'm going to guys, [00:01:51] I'm going to play this clip. This is [00:01:53] this is talking about the CIA and the [00:01:56] sources. [00:01:56] >> I have a thousand sources and the FBI. [00:01:58] Go ahead. [00:02:01] >> I have a thousand sources in the DOJ and [00:02:03] CIA I talk to all the time. Okay. [00:02:05] >> And military intel and every agency. I [00:02:08] mean, this is what I do all day. I spent [00:02:10] my day today trying to play stories [00:02:12] about corruption. I won't tell you [00:02:14] exactly about who and what side, but I [00:02:17] spoke to the New York Times and I spoke [00:02:19] to National Review. I'm on all sides. [00:02:21] >> Okay, we'll play a few. So, you worked [00:02:23] in clandestine operations. [00:02:25] >> I did. [00:02:25] >> Running foreign agents and tracking [00:02:27] hostile networks. And I just want to get [00:02:29] your thought on this clip in the context [00:02:30] of domestic surveillance and informants [00:02:32] in media. [00:02:34] >> Uh, first of all, I don't believe a word [00:02:35] he says about being in contact with the [00:02:38] CIA. If anybody at the CIA were in [00:02:41] contact with him, they would have to [00:02:43] report it immediately. You have 24 hours [00:02:46] to report contact with an UN uh cleared [00:02:49] person. So, I think he's making that up. [00:02:52] When it comes to the FBI, though, you [00:02:54] know, any slob can roll out of bed and [00:02:56] log on to FBI.gov and fill out a report [00:02:59] that's going to be ignored for the next [00:03:01] hundred years. I strongly suspect that [00:03:04] he's inflating this to make it look like [00:03:07] he's doing something or is somebody that [00:03:10] he's not. And I'll I'll tell you exactly [00:03:12] why. [00:03:13] >> I uh I had knowledge of a major fraud [00:03:16] involving more than hund00 million. I [00:03:20] literally could not get an appointment [00:03:22] with the FBI. The reason I wanted to [00:03:24] report it was because I stumbled into it [00:03:26] and I didn't want to be involved with [00:03:28] it. I couldn't get an appointment with [00:03:30] the FBI. Finally, I contacted a former [00:03:32] deputy director of the FBI to tell him [00:03:35] he got me the appointment at the FBI. In [00:03:37] the first 10 seconds that I was there, [00:03:40] the FBI agent put up his hand and said, [00:03:41] "Buddy, if this doesn't include the [00:03:44] words terrorism, Russia, or China, we're [00:03:47] not interested." And that was the end of [00:03:48] the meeting. [00:03:49] >> So, I mean, confidential informant is a [00:03:52] term of art in the FBI. So, if the FBI [00:03:55] calls him or calls anybody and and he [00:03:58] answers their questions, he dishes out [00:03:59] dirt. That's it. [00:04:00] >> Is is he is he a confidential foreman or [00:04:03] is he just an informant or is there a [00:04:04] distinction with that? [00:04:05] >> Yeah, he's a confidential informant [00:04:06] which you and I I think would call a [00:04:08] rat, right? [00:04:09] >> If the FBI is looking for somebody just [00:04:11] to rat people out, they'll call and say, [00:04:14] "Hey, do you have anything for me?" And [00:04:16] he says, "Oh, James O'Keefe. He's he's [00:04:18] not a good guy. He's a bad guy. What can [00:04:20] you give me on James O'Keeffe?" "Oh, he [00:04:22] overspent on Ubers." [00:04:24] >> Right. [00:04:25] >> So, he's acting as a [00:04:26] >> that's techically a confidential [00:04:27] >> informant. And and if he and if he [00:04:29] embellishes to the FBI or uses [00:04:32] hyperbole, he spent $2 million on [00:04:34] private jets, which is untrue. [00:04:36] That's he's still an informant. He's [00:04:38] just informing [00:04:39] >> and committing a felony, [00:04:40] >> which is a crime to lie to the FBI. [00:04:42] >> That's right. It's a crime to lie to the [00:04:43] FBI. [00:04:43] >> Um, we have another clip here on the [00:04:45] SDNY. This is this is I'm feeding the [00:04:49] SDNY tons of [ __ ] Let's play this clip [00:04:53] from [00:04:53] >> I've got him dental rights and so much [00:04:55] fraud. I've already fed the Southern [00:04:57] District Tons of Shell. I've got more. [00:05:00] >> Yeah. [00:05:01] >> And I'm one of I'm not special. I don't [00:05:05] think I'm a little special. But he's a [00:05:06] [ __ ] scumbag. [00:05:09] >> That's why I fed the Southern District [00:05:10] tons of [ __ ] to try and get him. [00:05:11] >> Uh so the people ask questions about [00:05:15] >> SDNY, which I interpret the SDNY, which [00:05:18] is a very interesting Do you know [00:05:19] anything about the SDNY? [00:05:20] >> I do. [00:05:21] >> It's it's called the Sovereign District [00:05:23] of New York. People are asking questions [00:05:24] about that. One of the questions I [00:05:27] always have, are they referring to the [00:05:28] prosecutors or the FBI in that district [00:05:31] or both? [00:05:33] >> Both, I think, but a little more so the [00:05:36] prosecutors. The Southern District of [00:05:38] New York is where prosecutors, [00:05:41] especially junior prosecutors, go to [00:05:43] make a life for themselves. Every one of [00:05:45] these guys sees himself one day as the [00:05:47] US attorney, as a member of Congress, [00:05:50] running for governor, or in that corner [00:05:52] office in an A-list uh law firm. They go [00:05:55] there to make their bones so they can [00:05:57] start making the big money or initiate a [00:06:00] political career. [00:06:00] >> So, it's ambition. [00:06:02] >> Oh, yeah. And it's going to be on your [00:06:03] back and my back and anybody else that [00:06:05] they can destroy. [00:06:07] >> This is James O'Keefe. You know me for [00:06:09] exposing the truth and holding the [00:06:10] corrupt elite responsible and [00:06:13] accountable. However, today I want to [00:06:15] tell you about protecting your own [00:06:16] freedom, your finances. Before you buy [00:06:19] any gold or silver, hear this. We're [00:06:21] going through one of the biggest [00:06:22] financial shifts of our lifetime. DD [00:06:24] dollarization. Nations like China, [00:06:27] Russia, and Saudi Arabia are pulling [00:06:29] away from the US dollar, and that [00:06:31] threatens your savings and retirement [00:06:33] security. Legendary investor Ray Dalio [00:06:35] warns skyrocketing debt, relentless [00:06:38] money printing, and a weakening dollar [00:06:41] are all part of a dangerous cycle that [00:06:43] could impact you. That's why more [00:06:45] Americans are turning to real assets [00:06:47] like physical gold and silver. Gold just [00:06:50] surged past $3,700 [00:06:52] per ounce and momentum is building. I've [00:06:55] partnered with veteranowned American [00:06:57] Independence Gold to help you take [00:06:59] action. Open a qualifying account today [00:07:01] and get up to $10,000 in bonus gold and [00:07:05] our free gold protection guide. And [00:07:07] here's the best part. A portion of every [00:07:09] sale supports Tunnel to Towers and [00:07:12] Wounded Warriors. Freedom isn't given, [00:07:14] it's secured. This is James O'Keefe. As [00:07:17] always, this is not financial advice. [00:07:19] Always check with your licensed [00:07:20] financial adviser before you invest. [00:07:24] Let's face it, healthc care is a mess. [00:07:27] Outrageous premiums, surprise bills, [00:07:29] denied claims, and now the rates are [00:07:31] climbing again. Medical debt is the [00:07:33] number one cause of bankruptcy, even for [00:07:35] people with insurance. That's why I [00:07:37] switch to Impact Health Sharing. No [00:07:39] networks, no woke nonsense, just real [00:07:41] savings and up to 50%. You can pick your [00:07:44] doctor. There's no surprise bills. [00:07:46] There's 247 teleaalth and maternity [00:07:48] support. Take control of your health [00:07:50] care before the system decides for you. [00:07:53] Go to impactomg.com. [00:07:55] That's impactomg.com [00:07:57] or call 855-3786777 [00:08:01] now. Impact Health Sharing Built [00:08:04] differently. [00:08:07] The incentives are so reversed, aren't [00:08:10] they? The incentives. We'll get to [00:08:12] accountability in a bit. Um, one more [00:08:15] clip here. This is this is a question we [00:08:17] got asked a lot after we released [00:08:18] stories going viral as I sit here with [00:08:20] you right now. Millions of views, but [00:08:22] everyone's asking me the same question, [00:08:25] which is why would he do this or why [00:08:28] does someone you say rat? I call I call [00:08:31] it a rat as well. Why would someone do [00:08:34] this? And and um we're going to play [00:08:36] this clip and we're going to ask you [00:08:37] what you think it means. This is guys [00:08:40] clip 104. I had phone calls from DOJ [00:08:42] sources telling us that telling me that [00:08:44] I was on an enemy's list under the Biden [00:08:46] administration [00:08:48] >> last year ahead of the election. I had [00:08:51] phone calls from DOJ sources telling me [00:08:53] that I was on a enemy's list that was [00:08:56] going to get perpet [00:08:59] like a threat or they were warning you [00:09:01] like [00:09:01] >> they were warning. I had a friend who [00:09:03] happened to be at the DOJ at a deputy [00:09:07] >> level who called me and said on a Friday [00:09:09] night at midnight and said like, "Dude, [00:09:12] you're on a [ __ ] list. You're going [00:09:13] to get perwked in October." And it [00:09:15] didn't happen because what happened in [00:09:17] between then? [00:09:19] >> So, one guess is they were likely [00:09:21] coercing him to provide false statements [00:09:23] similar to Michael Cohen. Just tell us [00:09:26] your analysis of this statement he made. [00:09:29] >> I don't believe him. Okay, James. I [00:09:31] don't believe him. You know, I I watched [00:09:33] this video very closely. This seems [00:09:37] Well, I've come to a couple of [00:09:38] conclusions. This seems like a guy who's [00:09:40] intensely lonely. He's trying to win the [00:09:44] affection the affections of an [00:09:46] attractive woman. There's there's a fine [00:09:50] line between love and hate. He hates [00:09:54] you, [00:09:55] >> but he loves me. [00:09:56] >> But I think maybe he loves you, too. [00:09:58] >> Have you come across characters like [00:09:59] this? All the time. [00:10:01] >> All the time. [00:10:02] >> Yeah. And at the CIA, you're trained to [00:10:03] exploit them. [00:10:04] >> How so? How do you exploit them? [00:10:06] >> I'll give you an example. I was [00:10:08] instructed to recruit uh a senior Arab [00:10:11] diplomat one time. I met him for coffee [00:10:13] just to try to assess him. I immediately [00:10:15] assessed that he was gay. I reported [00:10:17] that to CIA headquarters. They told me [00:10:19] to pretend that I was gay and to pick [00:10:22] him up. [00:10:23] >> How do you assess if someone is is [00:10:26] homosexual? you you just kind of feel it [00:10:29] in your gut. [00:10:30] >> Okay. Yeah. [00:10:31] >> Um [00:10:32] >> so so he's so he's uh a fine line [00:10:36] between love and hate. Um but a question [00:10:39] and and we'll move on from this subject [00:10:40] in a moment. But a question is this [00:10:42] individual got close to a lot of people [00:10:44] like he was on Tucker Carlson show. [00:10:46] >> Yeah. [00:10:46] >> Um [00:10:47] >> you know 10 times or whatever it was. I [00:10:49] mean I I have this is on Fox News [00:10:51] >> and people like Charlie Kirk and and [00:10:53] myself personally were blacklisted from [00:10:55] Fox News actually at the time funny [00:10:58] enough separate story. He got close to [00:11:00] Steve Bannon at the war room. He got [00:11:02] close to he's on the board of all these [00:11:03] different organizations and one of the [00:11:05] questions and and maybe this is a [00:11:06] question I should answer but you're [00:11:08] you're a subject matter expert. You [00:11:09] watched the 30-minute video. You kind of [00:11:11] have a a character profile on the [00:11:12] individual. How is he able to weasle his [00:11:16] way to the top of all these NOS's in the [00:11:19] conservative sphere in your estimation? [00:11:22] >> Yeah, I actually have to admit to some [00:11:24] admiration for that. Uh this is a guy [00:11:27] who is very arrogant. He is very uh much [00:11:33] a believer in his own abilities even if [00:11:37] he sort of believes too strongly in his [00:11:39] abilities. But he obviously appears to [00:11:42] be a guy who is good at stroking the [00:11:44] right people. [00:11:45] >> Okay. [00:11:46] >> And I think that's how he did it. You [00:11:48] know, it's it's not unusual too to [00:11:50] encounter somebody who is on a lot of [00:11:52] boards, is thrown off a lot of boards, [00:11:55] and then goes on to a lot of new boards [00:11:57] just because people get smart to him and [00:11:59] they realize he's not all that he's [00:12:01] cracked up to be [00:12:02] >> and they find new institutions that are [00:12:04] not wise to his shenanigans. That's [00:12:05] exactly right. Yeah. There's a We've all [00:12:07] encountered people. So going back to [00:12:09] what you did at the CIA, you you [00:12:11] exploited in with the the ego and the [00:12:13] arrogance of this type of profile. How [00:12:15] did you do that? [00:12:16] >> You did it brilliantly in this by by [00:12:19] putting an attractive woman in front of [00:12:21] him. Sometimes it really is as simple as [00:12:23] that. What you do there there's a [00:12:25] there's a cycle. We call it the asset [00:12:26] acquisition cycle at the CIA. Spot, [00:12:29] assess, develop, recruit. [00:12:31] >> So I spot this guy. Um, I assess his [00:12:35] access to information that I want. I [00:12:38] develop him by making him think that [00:12:40] we're great friends, [00:12:41] >> and I identify his vulnerabilities, his [00:12:44] weaknesses. In this case, just in a [00:12:46] quick 30 minute video, it's clear that [00:12:48] he has a weakness for an attractive [00:12:50] woman. [00:12:50] >> I think we all do, right? Is that a [00:12:52] commonality? [00:12:53] >> People do. Yeah. Especially for for [00:12:56] older men or men that might be a little [00:12:58] overweight or losing their hair. Yes. [00:13:00] >> Lonely, [00:13:00] >> right? Lonely. and uh and then you move [00:13:03] in for the kill. [00:13:04] >> So when you worked at the CI I mean I'm [00:13:06] a I'm a journalist so my my objective is [00:13:08] the public's right to know. [00:13:10] >> Yes. [00:13:10] >> We we we we celebrate when we get the [00:13:14] story that we think is important for the [00:13:17] public in your job. [00:13:19] >> What was your objective broadly [00:13:20] speaking? [00:13:21] >> It was the White House's right to know [00:13:23] the White House. My my former deputy [00:13:26] director, the the guy that I worked for [00:13:27] as executive assistant, he had this [00:13:29] mantra and the mantra was the job of the [00:13:32] CIA is to recruit spies, to steal [00:13:34] secrets, and to analyze those secrets so [00:13:37] that the president can make the best [00:13:39] informed policy. It was as simple as [00:13:41] that. [00:13:41] >> Working on behalf of the government, the [00:13:43] executive branch of government, [00:13:45] specifically the commander-in-chief. [00:13:46] >> That's right. Um because I always I [00:13:48] always thought that and and I' and I've [00:13:50] and I I have some training from people [00:13:52] that did what you did. But it was very [00:13:55] important for me to distinguish what I [00:13:57] do from what you do [00:13:58] >> because I'm not working on behalf of the [00:14:01] state. [00:14:01] >> That's right. [00:14:02] >> Whereas whereas you you are so in your [00:14:04] case you were just when when you say um [00:14:06] what was that? Uh uh asset recruit. [00:14:09] >> Yes. Uh spot assess develop recruit. [00:14:11] >> Spot assess develop recruit. the asset [00:14:13] acquisition cycle [00:14:14] >> recruit either to get the the individual [00:14:19] to betray their country or simply give [00:14:21] you intel that you can relay. [00:14:23] >> Oh, both. [00:14:24] >> Or both. [00:14:24] >> Both. Yeah. [00:14:25] >> And in that case, did were you able to [00:14:27] get the guy to betray his [00:14:30] >> We were always trained to not make the [00:14:32] final pitch unless you were 100% certain [00:14:35] they were going to say yes. And by then, [00:14:36] you had already gotten them to sort of [00:14:38] implicate 100%. [00:14:40] >> 100%. I never I made nine recruitments [00:14:42] over the course of my career. Wow. [00:14:44] >> And I never had anybody say no. [00:14:46] >> You walk a fine line like in my business [00:14:48] when I go get someone on tape. You know, [00:14:51] the other thing that I don't do and this [00:14:53] is a fine line is is blackmail because [00:14:55] you have these people on tape. I do. And [00:14:57] and you could be very evil with what I [00:14:59] have. I don't I don't do that. [00:15:01] >> No. No. [00:15:01] >> But in your in your field, you probably [00:15:03] it's part of being a spy. [00:15:05] >> You'd be surprised. The answer really is [00:15:07] no because we have found over the years [00:15:10] that people don't really react to that [00:15:14] kind of coercion or pressure. You want [00:15:16] them to genuinely like you. You want [00:15:18] them to like you so much that they're [00:15:20] willing to commit treason for you. [00:15:23] >> Yeah. [00:15:24] >> So, you're seducing them. [00:15:25] >> That's that's probably the best the best [00:15:27] descriptive word. Yes. And and I I [00:15:29] mentioned that book Master of Disguise [00:15:32] by um I forgot the guy's name that that [00:15:34] did the the movie all Argo or whatever. [00:15:36] >> Yeah. Oh, it's [00:15:37] >> Ben Ah Ben Affleck played him in a movie [00:15:39] Argo. [00:15:39] >> Ben Affleck in Argo. [00:15:40] >> And and you've worn disguises in your [00:15:42] line of work. [00:15:43] >> Yeah. Many times. [00:15:44] >> Every time there was a walk-in to the [00:15:46] American embassy, wherever I happen to [00:15:48] be stationed, you have to wear a [00:15:49] disguise. [00:15:49] >> What type of disguises did you [00:15:51] >> Usually it's as simple as a mustache, a [00:15:53] fake mustache and a wig. Um back then I [00:15:56] didn't wear glasses, so I would put on [00:15:58] glasses. They were just frames with [00:15:59] clear glasses. But at one of my overseas [00:16:02] posts, we experimented with the first [00:16:04] ever bald head with a comb over. It took [00:16:08] them six weeks to place each hair one by [00:16:12] one by one and to get the the skin color [00:16:16] a perfect match with my own skin. [00:16:18] >> How How old are you? [00:16:19] >> Uh 61 now. [00:16:20] >> 61. And when did you start with the CIA? [00:16:22] How old were you? [00:16:23] >> I was 25. [00:16:26] Let's face it, health care is a mess. [00:16:29] Outrageous premiums, surprise bills, [00:16:31] denied claims, and now the rates are [00:16:33] climbing again. Medical debt is the [00:16:35] number one cause of bankruptcy, even for [00:16:37] people with insurance. That's why I [00:16:39] switch to Impact Health Sharing. No [00:16:41] networks, no woke nonsense, just real [00:16:43] savings and up to 50%. You can pick your [00:16:46] doctor. There's no surprise bills. [00:16:48] There's 247 teleaalth and maternity [00:16:50] support. Take control of your healthcare [00:16:53] before the system decides for you. Go to [00:16:55] impactomg.com. [00:16:57] That's impactomg.com [00:16:59] or call 855-3786777 [00:17:03] now. Impact Healthsharing, built [00:17:06] differently. [00:17:09] This is James O'Keefe. You know me for [00:17:11] exposing the truth and holding the [00:17:13] corrupt elite responsible and [00:17:15] accountable. However, today I want to [00:17:17] tell you about protecting your own [00:17:18] freedom, your finances. Before you buy [00:17:21] any gold or silver, hear this. are going [00:17:23] through one of the biggest financial [00:17:25] shifts of our lifetime, ddollarization. [00:17:28] Nations like China, Russia, and Saudi [00:17:30] Arabia are pulling away from US dollars [00:17:32] and that threatens your savings and [00:17:34] retirement security. Legendary investor [00:17:37] Ray Dalio warns skyrocketing debt, [00:17:40] relentless money printing, and a [00:17:43] weakening dollar are all part of a [00:17:45] dangerous cycle that could impact you. [00:17:47] That's why more Americans are turning to [00:17:49] real assets like physical gold and [00:17:51] silver. Gold just surged past $3,700 [00:17:54] per ounce, and momentum is building. [00:17:57] I've partnered with veteranowned [00:17:58] American Independence Gold to help you [00:18:01] take action. Open a qualifying account [00:18:03] today and get up to $10,000 in bonus [00:18:06] gold and our free gold protection guide. [00:18:09] And here's the best part. A portion of [00:18:11] every sale supports Tunnel to Towers and [00:18:14] Wounded Warriors. Freedom isn't given, [00:18:17] it's secured. This is James O'Keefe. As [00:18:19] always, this is not financial advice. [00:18:21] Always check with your licensed [00:18:23] financial adviser before you invest. [00:18:27] There are there are there's a ven [00:18:29] diagram. I keep saying this between what [00:18:31] I do and what you do, but they're not [00:18:33] the same. And I'll go first. [00:18:34] >> Parallel. [00:18:35] >> They're parallel. Well, there's there's [00:18:36] some overlap. I mean, we use aliases. [00:18:39] And sure, [00:18:40] >> I use disguises. People comment that my [00:18:42] disguises are completely ridiculous, [00:18:44] >> but they work a lot of the time. Is that [00:18:46] because people are just so full of [00:18:48] themselves? They're they're they're not [00:18:50] One of the things I just I I find out in [00:18:52] Washington DC, particularly DC, and I [00:18:55] was in Davos for the World Economic [00:18:56] Forum. [00:18:57] >> They're they're stuck in their own [00:18:58] little They're not really paying [00:19:00] attention to me. [00:19:02] >> They're they're having a they're [00:19:04] confessing to the ether. [00:19:06] >> Well, what is that? Why Why do people [00:19:08] that [00:19:09] >> That's arrogance. Arrogance. [00:19:10] >> People love to hear their own voices. [00:19:12] People love to sound not just to others [00:19:15] but to themselves that they are the [00:19:17] leading experts on an issue. They're [00:19:20] insiders and they want to show they want [00:19:22] to prove just how intelligent just how [00:19:25] well-connected they are. [00:19:27] >> And that's true for 90% of people. [00:19:29] >> Yeah, just about it. [00:19:30] >> And in politics, [00:19:33] >> 100%. You have to be a sociopath or a [00:19:36] narcissist to even want to enter [00:19:38] elective politics. Or perhaps like [00:19:40] people say, you know, like someone like, [00:19:42] you know, an entrepreneur that that [00:19:44] starts a company, maybe they're a little [00:19:46] on the spectrum. There's something off, [00:19:47] but I mean that as a compliment. [00:19:49] >> Yes. [00:19:49] >> You have to either or you have to be [00:19:51] motiv motivated by some extreme form of [00:19:53] vengeance. Like there has to be [00:19:54] something wrong about you to do to do [00:19:57] this. [00:19:57] >> That's right. Well, I've said many times [00:19:59] on on podcast that the CIA, and I got [00:20:01] this from a CIA psychiatrist, the CIA [00:20:04] actively seeks to hire people with [00:20:06] sociopathic tendencies. [00:20:07] >> Sociopathic. They they don't want to [00:20:10] hire sociopaths because sociopaths have [00:20:12] no conscience, no ability to feel [00:20:14] remorse, and they blow right through the [00:20:16] polygraph because they don't feel [00:20:19] regret. [00:20:20] >> Wow. [00:20:20] >> So, what's a sociopathic tendency? [00:20:22] >> The sociopathic tendency is somebody who [00:20:24] is perfectly happy to operate in legal, [00:20:27] moral, or ethical gray areas because of [00:20:29] the belief that we're the good guys. [00:20:31] I'll give you an example. I was leaving [00:20:33] Pakistan, my very last day in Pakistan, [00:20:36] and I was so looking forward to meeting [00:20:38] up with my fiance 24 hours later, and we [00:20:41] were going to go on vacation to uh Santa [00:20:43] Fe. Two hours before I left the embassy, [00:20:46] I got a cable saying, "Don't come home. [00:20:50] We want you to go to this other country [00:20:51] instead, and we want you to meet up with [00:20:53] the team there. You're going to break [00:20:54] into a house, and you're going to plant [00:20:56] some hidden cameras." And I said, [00:20:58] "Okay." And I did. You didn't object to [00:21:02] this or you just Well, you followed your [00:21:04] orders. You you [00:21:05] >> and I believed in the mission. We were [00:21:06] the good guys. [00:21:07] >> You were you have to believe you're the [00:21:09] good guys. Oh, yeah. To do this, which [00:21:11] requires a little bit of sociopathic [00:21:13] tendencies. [00:21:13] >> That's right. [00:21:14] >> You can't really question your your [00:21:16] orders in the military in any event. [00:21:17] Right. You have to be trained. [00:21:19] >> And if headquarters said that this was a [00:21:21] bad person, a terrorist that we needed [00:21:24] to collect intelligence on, I was all [00:21:26] in. What's the difference between [00:21:28] Hollywood's depiction again I'll go [00:21:31] first here in answering my own question [00:21:34] Hollywood's depiction like Jason Bourne [00:21:35] and James Bond but that's kind of you [00:21:38] know ridiculous but my my my perception [00:21:41] of the big difference is that people [00:21:42] people I get thousands of people oh I [00:21:44] want to be an undercover for you the [00:21:47] hardest part for me is just the torture [00:21:49] of traveling I mean it is not fun to be [00:21:53] on a airplane ac overseas and sleeping [00:21:57] on the floor of a Portuguese airport on [00:21:58] a Saturday and hotel rooms all alone. [00:22:01] It's just hard work. That's the big [00:22:04] difference for me between the glamour [00:22:06] perception. But in your in your [00:22:08] business, in your line of work, what was [00:22:09] the difference between Hollywood's [00:22:10] depiction and what you do, Hollywood's [00:22:12] depiction? And I'll add by saying I was [00:22:14] the script adviser on the Born [00:22:16] Ultimatum. You were [00:22:17] >> in addition to a bunch of other CIA [00:22:19] movies and and two CIA related TV shows. [00:22:22] Um, we we try to make sure that the [00:22:24] scripts are are true to life as best we [00:22:27] can. But the the big difference is what [00:22:29] you see in a born movie [00:22:31] >> is somebody's entire career packed into [00:22:35] one [00:22:35] >> hour operation. [00:22:36] >> Two hours. [00:22:37] >> Yeah. [00:22:37] >> Yeah. There's a lot of hurry up and [00:22:39] wait. Surveillance is is just soul [00:22:44] crushing. [00:22:44] >> I see. You sit there for hours, [00:22:46] sometimes days, just sitting there [00:22:48] >> and and peeing, urinating in a in a cup [00:22:51] or whatever. That actually happens. [00:22:53] >> Oh, yeah. You sit in a car. What do you [00:22:54] go to the bathroom? [00:22:55] >> Your fake mustache is starting to peel [00:22:57] off [00:22:58] >> and Yeah. you're tired of the guy that [00:23:00] you're sitting with. [00:23:01] >> That's a good point. I once I once sat [00:23:03] on, you know, the the lid of a toilet [00:23:07] for nine hours [00:23:09] >> listening to a conversation in an [00:23:11] adjoining room as a guy was being [00:23:13] polygraphed. [00:23:14] >> Listening how so through [00:23:16] >> just just to see if he was going to lie. [00:23:18] No, I I just just through the crack in [00:23:20] the door just to see was he if he was [00:23:22] going to lie to the polygrapher and the [00:23:24] security officer that was in there with [00:23:26] him. [00:23:26] >> And you can't move on the toilet. You [00:23:28] can't shimmy. I I thought I was going to [00:23:30] faint after a while. [00:23:32] >> I've I've been there. Not not not that [00:23:34] extreme, but I mean, this is a weird [00:23:36] anecdote, but urinating in inveate [00:23:42] a woman in a cup because we couldn't [00:23:44] leave the car. [00:23:45] >> Yeah. [00:23:46] >> And the right people are not going to [00:23:47] complain about it. It's just part of the [00:23:49] job. It's the mission, right? [00:23:50] >> I I was being investigated for a [00:23:51] security clearance once and the FBI [00:23:53] agent that was investigating me said, [00:23:55] "Uh, have you ever been um arrested?" [00:23:58] And instinctively I said, "In the United [00:24:00] States." And she says, "What's that [00:24:02] supposed to mean?" And I said, "Oh, no, [00:24:04] no, no, no, no. I've never been [00:24:06] arrested." Thinking, "Oh, shit." [00:24:08] >> Yeah. [00:24:08] >> I can't talk about those other times. [00:24:10] >> Yeah. So, you've been in foreign You've [00:24:12] been in in jails and prisons overseas. [00:24:14] You You've been through a lot of stuff. [00:24:16] >> Yeah, I've been through a lot of stuff. [00:24:17] >> And you can't talk about everything [00:24:18] you've been through, right? [00:24:20] >> But it's rare that you you see I don't [00:24:22] know how many of you there are out [00:24:23] there, but you you you talk a lot. [00:24:25] You're you're an outspoken person. Yeah. [00:24:28] >> And that what what what [00:24:30] >> how did it come about to be that way? [00:24:32] >> You know, if you had Googled me before [00:24:35] December the 11th, 2007, [00:24:38] you would have found one entry and it [00:24:40] was I sold one house and bought another [00:24:42] house and it was in the Washington Post, [00:24:44] you know, little public information [00:24:47] thing. When I went public over the CIA [00:24:50] torture program, it exploded. And after [00:24:53] the Obama administration prosecuted me, [00:24:55] I decided that my mission in life was to [00:24:59] tell the truth and to be as vocal as I [00:25:02] possibly could be about government [00:25:04] wrongdoing. Even my my ex said, "Man, if [00:25:08] if they thought that arresting you was [00:25:10] going to silence you, they didn't know [00:25:12] you at all. [00:25:14] >> And I've embraced it." [00:25:15] >> That was over your whistleblowing on the [00:25:17] on the torture. [00:25:18] >> Yes. [00:25:19] >> So, so take us back to that that moment. [00:25:21] And this is important question because I [00:25:23] ask everybody who blows whistles. [00:25:26] >> What really what made you do that? You [00:25:28] were indignant, righteous indignation. [00:25:31] Tell take us back. [00:25:32] >> I wish I could tell you that, you know, [00:25:35] I took a position and I stood up and I [00:25:39] told them. That wasn't it at all. Mhm. [00:25:42] >> Um, I didn't intend to blow the whistle, [00:25:45] but I got a call from Brian Ross at ABC [00:25:49] News in early December 2007. [00:25:51] >> 2007. [00:25:52] >> Yep. Um, saying that he had a source who [00:25:56] said that I had tortured Abu Zubeda. [00:25:58] This was a man that we thought was the [00:26:00] number three in al-Qaeda, that I had led [00:26:02] a raid in Pakistan and captured. I said [00:26:05] that was absolutely untrue. I said I was [00:26:08] the only person who was kind to Abu [00:26:10] Zuba. I've never laid a hand on him or [00:26:12] on any other prisoner. I said, "Your [00:26:14] source is either grossly mistaken or [00:26:16] he's a liar." And Brian said, "I didn't [00:26:19] know this was an old reporter's trick [00:26:20] because I'd never spoken to a reporter [00:26:22] before." He said, "Well, you're welcome [00:26:23] to come on the show and defend [00:26:25] yourself." [00:26:26] Well, a couple of days later, President [00:26:28] Bush gave a press conference in which he [00:26:30] looked directly into the camera and he [00:26:32] said, "We do not torture." And I said to [00:26:37] my wife, who was also a senior CIA [00:26:39] officer, I said, 'He's a bald-faced [00:26:41] liar, [00:26:42] >> looking the American people in the in [00:26:44] the eye, and he's just lying to us. And [00:26:46] then two days later, it was a Friday, [00:26:49] Bush was walking out of the South [00:26:50] Portico of the White House to the [00:26:52] helicopter to fly to Camp David. And a [00:26:54] reporter shouted a question about [00:26:56] torture, and he stopped and he turned [00:26:58] and he said, "Well, if there is torture, [00:27:00] it's because of a rogue CIA officer." [00:27:03] And I told my wife, [00:27:06] >> Brian Ross' source is at the White House [00:27:08] >> and they're going to try to pin this on [00:27:10] me. I said, I'm going to go public. [00:27:12] >> So I I called Brian Ross and I said, [00:27:14] I'll give you your interview. [00:27:15] >> Wow. [00:27:16] >> And I decided just to tell the truth and [00:27:18] let the cards fall. [00:27:19] >> And we have the clip. Uh Andrew, let's [00:27:21] play the clip of from what John is [00:27:25] talking about. [00:27:26] >> We had a group of folks at the agency [00:27:29] who were trained in what have been [00:27:30] reported in the press to be called [00:27:32] enhanced techniques. These enhanced [00:27:33] techniques included everything from what [00:27:36] was called an attention shake where you [00:27:38] grab the person by the lapels and shake [00:27:39] them all the way up to the other end [00:27:41] which was waterboarding. [00:27:42] >> And that was one of the techniques. [00:27:44] >> Waterboarding was one of the techniques. [00:27:45] >> And was it used on Zeta? [00:27:47] >> It was. [00:27:48] >> Wow. Um [00:27:51] I mean I I I find this fascinating [00:27:54] because you you spoke out you made this [00:27:56] incredibly difficult decision and was it [00:27:58] was it because you wanted to write [00:28:00] wrongs? you you wanted to correct the [00:28:02] lies of the White House. I mean, what [00:28:04] was it? [00:28:05] >> You know, in my in my gut, I knew that [00:28:08] this was illegal. We we have a we have a [00:28:12] law in this country called the Federal [00:28:13] Torture Act of 1946, which specifically [00:28:16] outlawed exactly the same techniques [00:28:19] that the CIA was using. We executed [00:28:21] Japanese soldiers in 1946 who had [00:28:24] waterboarded American PS. And then in [00:28:27] 1968, in January of 1968, there was a [00:28:29] front page photograph uh on in the [00:28:32] Washington Post of an American soldier [00:28:34] waterboarding a Vietnamese North [00:28:36] Vietnamese uh prisoner. [00:28:39] >> The day that that photo was published, [00:28:42] the Secretary of Defense, Robert [00:28:43] McNamera, ordered an investigation. The [00:28:45] soldier was arrested. He was convicted [00:28:47] of torture and sent to to uh Levvenworth [00:28:50] >> for 20 years. Well, then in 2002, like [00:28:55] magic, it's all legal. Well, then the [00:28:57] law never changed. Congress never never [00:29:01] uh revoked it. They never amended it. We [00:29:04] changed and we just pretended that the [00:29:06] law didn't apply to us because we were [00:29:08] the good guys. [00:29:08] >> But most would is it fair to say that [00:29:10] most CIA officers wouldn't do what you [00:29:14] did here? [00:29:14] >> Most would not. [00:29:16] >> Why not? Uh, you know, well, honestly, [00:29:18] there were some true believers, but for [00:29:21] most of the others, they just didn't [00:29:23] want to rock the boat, jeopardize their [00:29:25] pensions, you know, future promotions. [00:29:27] >> But you were willing to do that. [00:29:29] >> I was willing to do that. [00:29:30] >> So, what made you different than all the [00:29:31] others? [00:29:34] >> I don't know. I was raised in a [00:29:35] churchgoing home, um, Catholic, [00:29:38] >> uh, Orthodox, [00:29:39] >> which is even more conservative than the [00:29:41] Catholics. And um [00:29:45] I don't know, right and wrong was always [00:29:48] clearly defined in my life. [00:29:49] >> I see. I mean, that's really the issue [00:29:52] at hand in our country, isn't it? [00:29:53] >> Because a lot of people don't want to [00:29:55] shake boats, rock the boat, lose their [00:29:57] money, lose their job, lose their [00:29:58] pension. No. [00:29:59] >> And [00:30:00] >> and you know, funny thing, if I could [00:30:01] interrupt you for a second, was the the [00:30:04] minute that we began to torture Abu [00:30:06] Zuba, I was the executive assistant to [00:30:09] the CIA's deputy director for [00:30:10] operations. So, I'm seeing the reporting [00:30:13] come from the secret site and there are [00:30:17] doctors out there saying, "Whoa, I never [00:30:20] signed on for this. I took an oath to do [00:30:22] no harm. I'm coming home. I quit. I [00:30:25] resigned." A secretary fainted when she [00:30:28] accidentally walked into the room while [00:30:30] they were torturing Abu Zuba. So, I was [00:30:32] not the only person that was just [00:30:36] like when the secretary fainted, what [00:30:37] was was it like zero dark 30? That kind [00:30:39] of thing? Was it worse? Was it What are [00:30:41] we talking about? [00:30:42] >> Well, I always maintained that there [00:30:43] were worse things than what what we saw [00:30:45] in Zero Dark 30. Worse things than water [00:30:47] boarding. There there were two there [00:30:49] were two techniques that I always [00:30:51] believed were worse. One was the cold [00:30:53] cell, which is when we chill a cell down [00:30:56] to 50° F. [00:30:59] >> Um, you chain the prisoner to the [00:31:02] ceiling with an eyebolt like this. So, [00:31:03] he can't get comfortable. He can't lay [00:31:06] down or kneel or sit. [00:31:07] >> And then he's naked. And then every hour [00:31:11] a CIA officer goes into the cell and [00:31:12] throws a bucket of ice water on him. [00:31:14] >> Every hour. [00:31:15] >> And we killed two people with that [00:31:16] technique. [00:31:17] >> Hypothermia. [00:31:18] >> And then you just bury him, you know, [00:31:20] behind the building. And then the other [00:31:22] one was uh sleep deprivation. Uh this [00:31:24] leaked around 2005, [00:31:28] 2004. And Don Rumsfeld, Secretary of [00:31:30] Defense, famously said he didn't believe [00:31:33] there was such a thing as sleep [00:31:35] deprivation because he had a standup [00:31:37] desk in his office. He didn't even sit [00:31:39] down and he would work 24 hours, 36 [00:31:42] hours without stopping. But we know from [00:31:45] the American Psychological Association [00:31:48] that people begin to lose their minds at [00:31:51] day seven with no sleep. They begin to [00:31:54] die of organ failure at day nine and the [00:31:57] CIA was authorized to keep people awake [00:31:59] for as long as 12 days. [00:32:00] >> So it doesn't work. It's not pragmatic. [00:32:03] No. Any of these methods of torture, [00:32:05] >> did they work? [00:32:06] >> No. not in terms of of allowing us to [00:32:09] gather actionable intelligence. What [00:32:11] worked was the FBI's practice of just [00:32:14] engaging people in conversation. And um [00:32:17] I mean you and I could talk for five [00:32:19] hours. We've got it. We've got an hour [00:32:21] left. Um so many directions to go in [00:32:25] here with this line of questioning. Um [00:32:27] my mind goes to the place where if you [00:32:29] or I are tortured, what techniques do [00:32:32] they teach us? Because we all have a [00:32:34] breaking point. [00:32:35] >> Yeah. Yeah. And I like to say my price [00:32:36] is my life. You know, when they're, you [00:32:38] know, I one of my jokes is [00:32:39] >> I wish I had thought of it. [00:32:41] >> One of my everyone has a price. And if [00:32:43] your price is your life, then that's [00:32:44] your price. Um, but one of my thoughts [00:32:47] is, well, I'm never going to tell you [00:32:48] who my confidential sources, you'll have [00:32:51] to waterboard. I always say that as a [00:32:53] joke. You have to waterboard me. What do [00:32:55] they teach you in your training if [00:32:57] you're tortured to not give up [00:32:58] information? [00:32:59] >> Well, it's the same thing that they [00:33:00] taught John McCain back in the in the [00:33:02] day in the 60s. uh John McCain was being [00:33:05] tortured mercilessly and uh he was being [00:33:09] asked the names of uh the other men in [00:33:11] his unit. It was kind of an entrylevel [00:33:14] question [00:33:14] >> and so he gave them the names of all of [00:33:18] the members of the offensive line of the [00:33:20] 1965 [00:33:22] uh Green Bay Packers [00:33:23] >> and they said good you see you see how [00:33:27] easy that was. [00:33:28] >> And then they gave him a little bit of [00:33:30] food and they stopped torturing him. So [00:33:32] listen, eventually the person that [00:33:34] you're torturing is going to tell you [00:33:36] what you want. [00:33:37] >> That technique might not work today [00:33:38] because they'll Google, [00:33:39] >> right? They'll Google it. But but what [00:33:41] happens is the prisoner will give you so [00:33:43] much garbage [00:33:45] >> in addition to the real information. You [00:33:48] have to turn all of that over to an [00:33:49] analyst or a team of analysts. It's [00:33:51] going to take months for them to get [00:33:53] through it and then by then the bomb's [00:33:55] already gone. I see. [00:33:56] >> I see. That's interesting. Okay. Okay. [00:33:58] So, you you feed them a bunch of [00:34:00] information to get a little food. You [00:34:02] give them something. Maybe [00:34:03] >> even Khaled Shake Muhammad confessed to [00:34:04] killing Daniel Pearl. We knew for 100% [00:34:08] certainty that he hadn't killed Daniel [00:34:10] Pearl, [00:34:11] >> but he confessed it just to get them to [00:34:13] stop torturing him. [00:34:15] >> Um, kind of going full circle because [00:34:17] you you this is Brian Ross on ABC News. [00:34:20] Yes. This is this is what, 20 years ago? [00:34:22] 19 years ago. [00:34:23] >> Oh, yeah. 19 years ago. [00:34:24] >> You look totally different. I guess [00:34:26] >> we all grow older in life. Um I I guess [00:34:30] it's it's what's fascin [00:34:41] and and and you you you gave up [00:34:43] something. You went to you went to [00:34:44] prison. [00:34:44] >> I went to prison [00:34:45] >> for how long? [00:34:46] >> Uh 23 months. [00:34:47] >> Where? [00:34:48] >> Uh FCI Lorettto, Pennsylvania. [00:34:51] >> And was it a highsecurity prison? It was [00:34:53] a low security prison. At sentencing, my [00:34:55] lawyers asked the judge to send me to a [00:34:57] minimum security work camp. Uh there are [00:35:00] no no locks on the doors, no bars on the [00:35:03] windows. Most of the guys work in town. [00:35:05] There's a little university there. Um [00:35:07] the CIA was just apoplelectic that I was [00:35:10] being sent to a minimum security work [00:35:12] camp. And so they secretly asked the [00:35:16] justice department to bump me up. So I [00:35:18] got to the prison. I got to the camp and [00:35:21] they said, "Oh, you have to go across [00:35:22] the street to the prison and then [00:35:24] they'll process you and they'll walk you [00:35:25] back over here." So, I went over over to [00:35:28] the prison and they cuffed me and [00:35:30] started walking me around to the back of [00:35:32] the prison. I said, "No, no, I'm [00:35:34] supposed to be at the camp across the [00:35:36] street." And the guard kind of chroled [00:35:39] and he says, "Not according to my [00:35:41] paperwork. You're not." [00:35:43] >> Took me four days to get access to a [00:35:45] phone. And I called my attorney finally [00:35:47] and I said, "Hey, listen. They put me in [00:35:49] the actual prison with the pedophiles [00:35:52] and the mafia dons and the drug [00:35:54] kingpins. What do I do? [00:35:56] >> And he said, "Oh my god." Well, he said, [00:35:58] "We could file a a motion, but it'll be [00:36:00] two years before we get a hearing. [00:36:02] You'll be home by then." He said, [00:36:03] "Buddy, I'm sorry. You're just going to [00:36:04] have to tough it out." And so I decided, [00:36:07] you know what? You've been in far worse [00:36:09] places than FCI Lorettto, Pennsylvania. [00:36:12] You're trained for this. And so I just [00:36:14] set out to handle it [00:36:16] >> for how long? [00:36:17] >> Two years. Two. two years. [00:36:19] >> I didn't get one single day of halfway [00:36:22] house time. The CIA ensured that I did [00:36:25] as much time as I possibly could do. [00:36:28] >> Did you encounter any violence in the [00:36:29] prison? Did you Did you [00:36:30] >> only violence that I initiated? [00:36:32] >> You initiated? Yeah. The violence. [00:36:34] >> But, you know, one of the things they [00:36:35] taught us at the CIA was let others do [00:36:37] your dirty work. And that's what I did. [00:36:39] >> That's what you did. [00:36:40] >> I never ever got my hands dirty. Never. [00:36:42] >> Your your trade craft came in in handy. [00:36:45] >> Boy, did it. I was repeatedly called to [00:36:47] the lieutenant's office for [00:36:48] investigation. And you know, rule number [00:36:50] one at the CIA is admit nothing, deny [00:36:53] everything, make counter accusations. [00:36:55] >> That's kind of what it reminds me a [00:36:57] little bit of of the Trump's lawyer in [00:37:00] what was his name? Ray Co. Ray Coin. Ray [00:37:03] uh uh [00:37:05] >> Ray Coin. I can't recall his name. Roy [00:37:07] Conn. Yeah, that's kind of rule one, [00:37:09] two, and three. Admit nothing. Did not [00:37:11] always declare victory. Um, so you were [00:37:14] you were locked up and you you were, for [00:37:16] lack of a better word, manipulating [00:37:17] other folks to do your bidding so that [00:37:19] you didn't have to get your hands dirty. [00:37:20] >> That's exactly right. And I forged [00:37:22] strategic alliances, which I began on my [00:37:24] very first day there. [00:37:25] >> So, uh, my my I was in prison for an [00:37:28] hour and, uh, the only thing that the [00:37:31] guard who processed me told me, the only [00:37:33] the only words that he spoke directly to [00:37:35] me were, "If anybody comes into your [00:37:37] cell uninvited, that's an act of [00:37:38] aggression." And I said, "Great. Thanks. [00:37:41] I'm here 40 minutes and I'm going to get [00:37:42] my ass kicked. [00:37:44] >> So, sure enough, an hour later, this [00:37:46] these two guys walked in. One had a [00:37:48] swastika tattoo that took up his entire [00:37:50] neck, went up onto his face. The other [00:37:52] one had [ __ ] you tattooed on his [00:37:54] eyelids. [00:37:56] >> And um and I jumped up and I put my fist [00:37:59] up and I said, "What do you want?" And [00:38:01] one of them said, "You the new guy?" I [00:38:02] said, "Yeah." So he said, "Uh, are you a [00:38:06] you a rat?" I said, "No, I'm not a rat." [00:38:09] He said, "You a fag?" I said, "No, I'm [00:38:11] not a [ __ ] [00:38:13] >> You a chomo?" And I'm standing there [00:38:15] with my face. I said, "I don't know what [00:38:16] that word means." [00:38:17] >> Okay. I don't know what that word. [00:38:18] >> And he says, "Chomo, child molester." I [00:38:21] said, "No, I'm not a child molester." [00:38:23] And he says, "Okay, you can sit with the [00:38:24] Aryans in the chow hall." And I'm like, [00:38:26] "Oh." [00:38:27] >> Oh, is he just going to take your word [00:38:28] for these things? [00:38:28] >> I know, right? You have to show [00:38:30] paperwork, though eventually. You have [00:38:31] like a week to show the paperwork. So, [00:38:33] I'm like, "Okay, I guess I'm I'm with [00:38:34] the Aryans now." And then, you know, I [00:38:37] had similar experiences with the Nation [00:38:38] of Islam because I had defended human [00:38:40] rights and with the uh with the Mexicans [00:38:43] because one Mexican asked me to write [00:38:45] his appeal and I did and I didn't charge [00:38:47] him anything. So, [00:38:48] >> are you an attorney by trade? [00:38:49] >> No. But I said, how how hard could it [00:38:51] be? Right. So, I wrote the appeal and [00:38:53] sent it in and he lost. He was guilty. [00:38:55] >> So, so did they find out about your case [00:38:58] eventually? Oh, this guy was a CIA case [00:39:00] officer. They find all that out. [00:39:01] >> It was before I got there. [00:39:03] >> And what did they think about that? [00:39:04] >> Well, dependent on what faction you were [00:39:06] with. So there was one guy, shout out to [00:39:09] Mark Lanzelotti, one of the Italians, [00:39:11] the Italians named Gambino, Genevese, [00:39:15] Lucesi, etc. [00:39:17] He he saw in the Sunday New York Times [00:39:19] that I was going to report to the prison [00:39:20] on Thursday and he took it upon himself [00:39:23] to go to every one of the Italians and [00:39:24] say, "Listen, there's a CIA guy coming [00:39:27] here, but there's a big difference [00:39:28] between the CIA and the FBI. the FBI is [00:39:31] rats and cops and the CIA protected us [00:39:34] from the Muslims. [00:39:36] >> And so they welcomed me with open arms. [00:39:38] They adopted me and I spent every waking [00:39:41] moment. [00:39:41] >> Give the audience some background. The [00:39:43] CIA protected um them from the Muslims. [00:39:47] >> Right. So in the in the post 911 world, [00:39:49] when you boiled when you boiled the CIA [00:39:52] right down to its bare bones, it was it [00:39:56] was working against Iraq, working [00:39:58] against al-Qaeda, working against [00:39:59] Afghanistan, and that was good enough [00:40:01] for them. And then this rumor somehow [00:40:04] got started among the Aryans that I had [00:40:06] been a hitman for the CIA. And one of [00:40:08] them finally came up to me, an Aryan [00:40:12] Brotherhood guy, a dangerous guy, and he [00:40:14] said, "Is it true that you were a hitman [00:40:16] for the CIA?" And I was prepared for the [00:40:18] question. So I said, "Look, it was [00:40:20] wartime and we all did things we weren't [00:40:23] proud of." [00:40:24] >> And that just made everything in life [00:40:27] easy. [00:40:27] >> What did he say in response to that? [00:40:29] >> That was perfectly good with him. [00:40:30] >> He just accepted that. So you kind of [00:40:32] thought through in your mind whatever [00:40:34] questions they would ask you. [00:40:35] >> I did and I was prepared for Were you [00:40:37] scared in prison? You know, do you do [00:40:40] >> The only thing I was worried about was [00:40:42] the guards. The guard The guards are [00:40:44] crooked and they're violent. They're [00:40:46] corrupt. They're dangerous. Yeah. [00:40:48] >> And that's probably true. If it's true [00:40:50] in your case, it's probably true in most [00:40:51] cases. [00:40:52] >> Yeah, I think so. [00:40:53] >> Um, do you do you experience fear in the [00:40:57] way that most people do? [00:40:58] >> No. [00:40:59] >> You don't experience There's a [00:41:01] difference between fear and danger. You [00:41:02] understand danger. [00:41:03] >> Sure. one of one of the guys that I [00:41:05] worked with uh when I resigned, I was [00:41:08] leaving, they had a little going away [00:41:09] party for me and um and he came up to me [00:41:12] and he said, "I want to tell you how [00:41:14] much I've admired you over these years." [00:41:16] I said, "Oh, geez, thanks. It's such a [00:41:17] pleasure to work with you." He said, [00:41:18] "No, you're different than everybody [00:41:20] else." He said, "You're not afraid of [00:41:22] anything." [00:41:24] And I said, "You know what? I never [00:41:25] really thought about it, but that but [00:41:27] that's true. I'm not. And I don't know [00:41:30] why." [00:41:30] >> That's highly unusual, isn't it? [00:41:32] >> That's unusual. And as so a couple [00:41:35] questions on the fear thing. [00:41:37] >> Has society gotten more afraid? Are [00:41:40] people more afraid than they were 30 [00:41:41] years ago in your estimation? [00:41:43] >> Oh, I think so. [00:41:43] >> What caused that? [00:41:45] >> I think in large part 911. I think in [00:41:48] some part we've seen this political [00:41:51] split in our society where [00:41:55] we can't be friends anymore with people [00:41:58] with whom we disagree politically. And [00:41:59] that's nuts to me. It's nuts. But we're [00:42:02] at the point where if you've got [00:42:04] conservative friends or conservative [00:42:07] relatives, oh my god, it's it's a a [00:42:09] highway to, you know, militia membership [00:42:13] or Antifa. I'll give you an example. I [00:42:15] I've got a cousin, bonafideed war hero [00:42:18] from the Vietnam War, multiple bronze [00:42:22] stars. He has the V for valor, purple [00:42:24] heart, the whole nine yards. And I [00:42:27] happen to be in Tampa uh to see him. And [00:42:29] so I said, "Hey, let me take you to [00:42:31] lunch." So, I went picked him up at [00:42:33] lunch and he says, "Oh, wait a minute. [00:42:35] Before I could pull out, I forgot my [00:42:37] gun." So, he gets out of the car, goes [00:42:39] back to the garage, gets his 9mm, puts [00:42:41] it in the glove compartment of my rental [00:42:43] car. And I said, I said, "Dude, what are [00:42:45] you doing? I'm I'm a convicted felon. [00:42:47] This is felon with a gun." And he says, [00:42:50] "Yeah, well, you never know when we're [00:42:51] going to run into Antifa." And he was [00:42:54] completely serious. And I said, "Put the [00:42:56] gun back in the garage. I can't take you [00:42:58] to a restaurant with a gun." [00:42:59] >> What felony did they get you on? Uh, I [00:43:02] violated the Intelligence Identities [00:43:04] Protection Act of 1982. [00:43:06] >> Got a crime for everything, don't they? [00:43:08] Not espionage or anything like this. [00:43:10] >> No, no, no. They charged me with three [00:43:11] counts of espionage. I hadn't committed [00:43:13] espionage. [00:43:13] >> They charged you with espionage. And [00:43:15] this is in the which district in [00:43:16] Virginia. [00:43:17] >> This is in the Eastern District of [00:43:18] Virginia. The espionage court. [00:43:19] >> And that's what I'm saying. You can't [00:43:20] really get a fair judge there. In fact, [00:43:23] I hired I hired OJ Simpson's jury [00:43:26] consultant. [00:43:27] >> You did? [00:43:27] >> He was the uncle of my best friend's [00:43:30] wife. and he agreed to wave his $10,000 [00:43:33] a day fee and just do it because he was [00:43:36] a nice guy. [00:43:36] >> So So jury the jury pool or the judges [00:43:39] are more unfair. [00:43:40] >> The jury pool Well, the judges the [00:43:42] judges you're not going to get a fair [00:43:44] trial. [00:43:44] >> You're not going to get [00:43:45] >> the judges are are No security defendant [00:43:49] has ever won a case in the Eastern [00:43:52] District of Virginia. Ever. [00:43:53] >> Why are the judges unfair? Because [00:43:57] literally all of them have been [00:43:59] prosecutors. [00:44:01] >> Literally all of them. [00:44:03] >> All of the federal judges [00:44:04] >> in the Eastern District of Virginia. [00:44:05] >> Are they are the federal judges in the [00:44:07] article 3 courts appointed regionally or [00:44:10] did they get appointed from all over? [00:44:11] They're all they're all prosecutors. [00:44:12] >> Oh, they're all prosecutors. I think a [00:44:14] study was done by ProPublica in 2000 I'm [00:44:18] going to say 11 in which they said [00:44:20] something like 92% of federal judges had [00:44:23] been prosecutors. [00:44:25] Wow. [00:44:27] In my case in EDVA, [00:44:29] >> uh we had this jury consultant, you [00:44:32] know, take a look at everything and he [00:44:33] said, "Look, if we were in any other [00:44:35] district in America, I would say let's [00:44:38] go for it. We're going to win at trial, [00:44:39] but your your jury is going to be people [00:44:42] from the CIA or with relatives or [00:44:44] friends at the CIA, the Defense [00:44:46] Department, uh Department of Homeland [00:44:49] Security, FBI, and intelligence [00:44:51] community contractors. [00:44:52] >> Yeah. The jury would make to be the and [00:44:55] this is called voadier and and you're a [00:44:57] criminal defendant so you had 12 jurors [00:44:59] instead of nine. I was a civil defendant [00:45:01] three times and I've been in three jury [00:45:02] trials all civil. So I went through the [00:45:04] voadier process a few times. I [00:45:06] understand what that most people don't [00:45:07] live through that. [00:45:08] >> Yeah. [00:45:08] >> So you did jury selection. [00:45:10] >> In my case in DC, I had a case in DC in [00:45:12] the District of Columbia and you're in [00:45:14] the you were in the Eastern District of [00:45:15] Virginia. [00:45:15] >> Yes. [00:45:16] >> And in one of my cases, [00:45:19] >> it's still going on. It's in the It's in [00:45:21] the DC Circuit Court of Appeals actually [00:45:23] nine years later. But wow. Three years [00:45:24] four years ago, [00:45:26] >> one of the jurors was asked by the [00:45:29] federal judge, "Have you ever heard of [00:45:31] James O'Keefe?" And he goes, "Oh, no. [00:45:33] I've never seen that man before." Like [00:45:35] obviously lying. And then he worked for [00:45:39] the Hillary Clinton campaign. The case [00:45:40] was about [00:45:41] >> our investigation into Hillary Clinton. [00:45:44] And as he gets off the bench, [00:45:47] there's something called preemptary [00:45:49] preemptive strikes where you run out of [00:45:51] them. So you can't cross-examine the [00:45:52] juror and the judge has to take the [00:45:54] juror at his word. The juror walks, [00:45:58] looks at me, and winks [00:46:00] as if to say, "I lied and there's [00:46:02] nothing you can do about it, James." [00:46:03] >> Oh my god. [00:46:04] >> And it was one of the most It was one of [00:46:06] the most It was one of the darkest [00:46:08] moments. What was jury selection like in [00:46:11] your case? You said you consulted a [00:46:12] jury. We didn't get that far. Um, I was [00:46:15] facing 45 years in prison and they they [00:46:19] held they held it at 45 years for 10 [00:46:22] months. In fact, one of the assistant US [00:46:24] attorneys who later became the assistant [00:46:26] attorney general for the criminal [00:46:28] division in the Biden administration, [00:46:31] she said to me, "Take a deal and you [00:46:34] might live to meet your grandchildren, [00:46:36] Mr. Kiryaku." So, I said, "I'm not going [00:46:38] to do 45 minutes." I told her. So they [00:46:42] they stuck to that for 10 months. Then [00:46:44] they came down to 10 years. Take a plea [00:46:46] to an espionage charge, do 10 years. I [00:46:48] said, "No." Then eight years, no. And [00:46:50] then five years, no. And my lawyer, who [00:46:53] was what the Washington Post called a [00:46:54] legal titan, Plato Caceras, he said to [00:46:57] me, you know, I've been a lawyer in this [00:46:59] town for 50 years, and I've never seen [00:47:01] them come down in time. Usually if you [00:47:04] say no to 10, they go to 12, 15, 20. I [00:47:07] said, "Why are they coming down?" He [00:47:09] said, ' Because they have a [ __ ] case [00:47:10] and they know it's [ __ ] and that's why [00:47:12] we're going to trial. [00:47:13] >> So finally they came down to five. I [00:47:16] said no. Then three and a half and I [00:47:18] said no. And then they said best and [00:47:21] final offer three years. I stayed up all [00:47:24] night with my wife. We talked about it [00:47:25] literally all night and I said no. [00:47:28] >> So the lawyers were very upset with me. [00:47:31] They came to the house the next day. [00:47:33] Plato was the first one in the house and [00:47:35] he said, "You stupid son of a [ __ ] [00:47:37] Take the deal." He said like that. The [00:47:40] second, Bob Trout, lovely like southern [00:47:42] gentleman, he said, "If you were my own [00:47:45] brother, I would beg you to take the [00:47:47] deal." And then the third attorney, the [00:47:50] I had 11 attorneys. The the third of the [00:47:52] 11 big ones. Yeah. This was a big case. [00:47:55] >> How did you afford 11 attorneys? [00:47:56] >> I only paid six of them and I ended up [00:47:59] Well, I ended up filing for bankruptcy [00:48:01] because I owed them $1.15 million. [00:48:04] >> Who was the lawyers? I want to return to [00:48:05] that. I don't want you to keep doing the [00:48:06] story. But [00:48:07] >> so Mark McDougall from Aken Gump and [00:48:09] Strauss, he said to me, he pulled me [00:48:10] aside and he said, "You know what your [00:48:12] problem is? Your problem is you think [00:48:14] this is about justice." And it's not [00:48:16] about justice. It's about mitigating [00:48:18] damage. Take the deal. [00:48:20] >> M. What does that mean mitigating [00:48:21] damage? [00:48:22] >> That if I screw around and go to trial, [00:48:25] and this is what I asked him. I said, [00:48:26] "Okay, I get it. But if I go to trial [00:48:28] and I'm convicted, what am I seriously [00:48:30] looking at?" And he said, "12 to 18 [00:48:33] years, take the deal." And so I took a [00:48:35] deal for two and a half years. I did 23 [00:48:38] months. I had five kids at home. [00:48:41] >> You have five children. [00:48:42] >> I wanted this to go at the time. [00:48:45] >> Let me think. This was [00:48:48] 14 years ago. So they were 1916 [00:48:54] 97 and one. [00:48:57] >> Well, good good math. And the 19th you [00:49:00] range the gamut. 17 916 19 and and and [00:49:05] what are your ch what did your what did [00:49:06] your what do your children think of all [00:49:08] of this? [00:49:10] >> To tell you the truth [00:49:12] uh three of the five don't speak to me [00:49:14] because of this. [00:49:15] >> Which part? Which part? [00:49:17] >> I I'm a criminal and having a a [00:49:19] convicted felon as a father holds them [00:49:23] back in their careers. I I have an [00:49:26] unusual name. If you Google them, I pop [00:49:29] up. [00:49:29] >> I see. And so, you know, one is a bond [00:49:31] trader in in uh Chicago and and one is a [00:49:36] a an elementary school teacher in [00:49:39] Raleigh, North Carolina. They're [00:49:40] embarrassed by all this. [00:49:42] >> They're ambitious [00:49:43] >> people. And I stand in the way of that. [00:49:46] >> Did they get that from their mother or [00:49:48] from some other Okay. [00:49:49] >> Yeah, they got it from their mother. [00:49:50] >> Um Well, in the O'Keefe family, I think [00:49:54] that they they would see through that. [00:49:56] I'm not a convicted felon. I'm a I'm a [00:49:58] convicted misdemean. [00:50:00] >> That's okay. [00:50:00] >> That's a story. Wear it like a badge of [00:50:03] honor. [00:50:03] >> Wear it. I I think things have So, this [00:50:05] was 19 years ago, right? Or 2007? [00:50:08] >> No. No. I was prosecuted. Well, see, I [00:50:10] blew the whistle during the Bush [00:50:11] administration. [00:50:12] >> But you But when was the sentence? [00:50:13] >> It was the Obama administration that [00:50:14] went after me. So, I was sentenced in in [00:50:17] 20 January of 2013 and I went to prison [00:50:21] in February of 2013. [00:50:22] >> But the world has changed in 2025 [00:50:25] and 26. That'd be a totally different [00:50:27] dynamic for you, right? [00:50:28] >> Oh my god. Listen, I always considered [00:50:31] myself to be a part of what I called the [00:50:34] libertarian left. Uh, and I've long been [00:50:37] a strong believer that the ideological [00:50:39] spectrum is not straight line and these [00:50:42] types of people. [00:50:43] >> The ideological spectrum is a circle and [00:50:45] it meets. And with the advent of the [00:50:48] MAGA movement, that's where I feel like [00:50:51] I found an ideological home. [00:50:54] >> Yes. um political realignment. [00:50:57] >> Yes. [00:50:58] >> You've you've had a political [00:50:59] realignment. You you said you were a [00:51:00] third generation Democrat. [00:51:02] >> Yes. [00:51:02] >> But that you left the party and the [00:51:04] actions by Obama and Brennan confirmed [00:51:07] that decision. By the way, what was the [00:51:08] guy? [00:51:10] >> I want to go to this, but the the um [00:51:12] your take on the uh not the guy, the the [00:51:15] court cases involving Snowden. [00:51:17] >> Yeah. [00:51:18] >> And um [00:51:19] >> Assange. [00:51:19] >> Assange. just what's your 30 secondond [00:51:21] take on both of the [00:51:23] >> I believe that Ed Snowden's a bonafide [00:51:26] American hero. It is illegal, not just [00:51:29] illegal. It's a part of NSA's charter [00:51:30] that it cannot spy on Americans. And in [00:51:34] fact, most of what it does is to spy on [00:51:37] Americans. We wouldn't know that had it [00:51:38] not been for Ed Snowden. Uh Julian [00:51:40] Assange, Julian's a a tough guy to like [00:51:44] U. He's a guy who's, you know, publicly [00:51:48] on the spectrum. uh you just have to [00:51:50] accept it. But what he did was very [00:51:53] brave. The American people had the right [00:51:57] to know what the likes of Hillary [00:51:59] Clinton and uh and John Podesta were [00:52:03] saying and planning and doing in the [00:52:05] name of the American people. But did um [00:52:08] and you you probably don't know the [00:52:10] answer to this because you'd be making a [00:52:11] speculation, but in the criminal [00:52:13] affidavit or the uh indictment of [00:52:15] Assange, they alleged that he cooperated [00:52:18] with Manning or conspired with Manning [00:52:19] to hack into the thing. And we don't [00:52:21] know if he did or not. [00:52:22] >> No, he didn't do that. You don't think [00:52:23] he did? [00:52:23] >> No, I don't think he did it. In fact, [00:52:25] the only person who said that was a [00:52:27] convicted Icelandic pedophile [00:52:30] who had also been convicted of making [00:52:34] false statements. He went to the FBI uh [00:52:37] agent who was uh who was assigned to the [00:52:39] American embassy in Reikuic and offered [00:52:42] up all this false information in [00:52:44] exchange for money and then had to [00:52:46] retract all of it. [00:52:47] >> Is that was that in the indictment that [00:52:49] Icelandic [00:52:49] >> Oh yeah, that's that that's where that [00:52:51] information came from. [00:52:53] >> So he didn't probably conspire with [00:52:55] Assange. He played the role of a [00:52:57] journalist receiving the information. [00:52:59] That was exactly [00:52:59] >> I think the I I know this because it's [00:53:01] very similar to my case with the FBI [00:53:03] because they alleged I stole a diary. I [00:53:05] never stole anything. No. [00:53:06] >> But the Supreme Court cases Nikki [00:53:08] vivoper 2001. A journalist can receive [00:53:12] information that was stolen as long as [00:53:14] the journalist plays no part. So Assange [00:53:18] in the indictment it said I think it [00:53:19] said curious eyes don't run dry. He's [00:53:22] telling Manning give feed me more stuff. [00:53:24] >> Yeah. [00:53:25] >> So that's a very fine line. [00:53:27] >> It's a fine line. It is in in [00:53:28] >> but he never tasked Manning. [00:53:30] >> He never tasked Manning. [00:53:31] >> No. [00:53:32] >> And that's what this Ziggy Thor Darson [00:53:34] alleged. [00:53:35] >> What was his name? [00:53:36] >> Ziggy Thor Darson. [00:53:37] >> Ziggy Thor D. And Ziggy Thor Darson [00:53:39] worked worked with Assange in some [00:53:41] capacity or [00:53:42] >> he was in Assange's orbit for a year or [00:53:44] two um in in the Iceland office of [00:53:47] Wikileaks and then just decided, hey, I [00:53:49] can make this work for myself. [00:53:52] Um, so, so I mean, and and uh Julian [00:53:57] Assange has really paid a price. I mean, [00:53:59] rotting away in a in a room in England [00:54:02] for years, [00:54:03] >> multiple suicide attempts. [00:54:05] >> Yeah, [00:54:05] >> it was terrible. [00:54:06] >> Um, and the guy, it was Brennan and [00:54:08] Hayden, one of the clap clapper when [00:54:11] asked under oath, do you spy? And he did [00:54:13] this whole thing, [00:54:15] >> which for a spy to do, it's like the [00:54:17] worst tell ever in Congress. You know [00:54:18] the video I'm talking about. Oh, no. Not [00:54:21] wittingly. I mean, what type of spy [00:54:23] behaves that way in a congressional [00:54:24] hearing, I guess, when you're guilty. [00:54:26] >> And you remember the question was was [00:54:28] whether he spied on Americans, [00:54:31] >> right? [00:54:31] >> And then he said no, which [00:54:33] >> which is a crime, which is a lying. [00:54:34] >> He was lying. Was he lying under oath? [00:54:36] >> Lying under oath. But no, but no one no [00:54:37] one's held accountable. [00:54:38] >> No. [00:54:39] >> Okay. I want to go to your political [00:54:40] realignment, but I'm jumping around here [00:54:43] um because I'm there's so many things to [00:54:45] ask you. [00:54:46] >> Why is nobody held accountable? This is [00:54:49] James O'Keefe. 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No [00:56:21] networks, no woke nonsense, just real [00:56:23] savings and up to 50%. You can pick your [00:56:26] doctor. There's no surprise bills. [00:56:28] There's 247 teleaalth and maternity [00:56:30] support. Take control of your healthcare [00:56:33] before the system decides for you. Go to [00:56:35] impactomg.com. [00:56:37] That's impactomg.com [00:56:39] or call 855-3786777 [00:56:43] now. Impact Healthsharing built [00:56:46] differently. [00:56:50] Yeah. You know, this is this is the [00:56:52] Washington of of the 21st century. [00:56:56] Either you're in or you're not one of [00:56:58] the one of the swells who's in. And the [00:57:02] the the system, the swamp takes care of [00:57:05] its own. That's why you have somebody [00:57:07] like John Brennan who can commit felony [00:57:10] after felony after felony and literally [00:57:13] never pay a price. The swamp takes care [00:57:16] of its own. Let's let's unpack that. [00:57:19] >> Okay, [00:57:20] >> so the Republicans have the the the [00:57:23] White House. Trump's in there. I I [00:57:24] support the president. I support what [00:57:27] he's doing to clean up. [00:57:29] >> I support Doge. I support what Elon is [00:57:31] doing. The swamp takes care of its own. [00:57:34] But but but what happens? Like is it [00:57:37] that they [00:57:39] is it they get lobbyed by the bad guys? [00:57:42] Do they take money legally? I mean [00:57:45] >> it's actually even more simple than [00:57:46] that. Taking the CIA as an example [00:57:49] because it's the example that I know the [00:57:51] best. Presidents come and go every four [00:57:54] years, every eight years. If you're at [00:57:56] the CIA, especially if you're in the [00:57:58] senior intelligence service, you're [00:58:00] going to be there for 25, 30, 35 years. [00:58:03] I worked with one guy, a national [00:58:05] intelligence officer who was there for [00:58:08] 42 years. [00:58:10] >> And you know, presidents come and go, [00:58:12] >> and they're most likely not going to [00:58:15] fire you, even though at the CIA, we [00:58:17] served at the at the pleasure of the [00:58:19] president. We didn't have we didn't have [00:58:21] the same protections from the Civil [00:58:23] Service Act that everybody else in [00:58:25] government did. But, um, if you don't [00:58:27] like this president, you just don't [00:58:29] ignore him. You ignore his orders. you [00:58:32] know, he's going to be gone in three or [00:58:34] four years and then you just wait for [00:58:36] the next guy. [00:58:38] >> So, it's just the incentives. It's just [00:58:41] the the the the incentives are I mean, [00:58:45] just walk me through this because [00:58:46] >> Well, the biggest problem it's not just [00:58:47] the incentives. The biggest problem is [00:58:49] that there is really no congressional [00:58:53] oversight. [00:58:54] There's just none. Especially in [00:58:57] intelligence. the the intelligence [00:58:58] committees are no more than cheerleaders [00:59:02] for the CIA and the rest of the [00:59:03] intelligence community. [00:59:05] >> Well, I'll give you a real life example. [00:59:08] When I got out of prison, I was invited [00:59:10] to dinner at the Greek ambassador's [00:59:12] residence and I went there and Senator [00:59:15] Ron Weiden was one of the guests and he [00:59:17] walked up to me and he said, "Hey, [00:59:19] welcome home. We were really rooting for [00:59:21] you. We were pulling for you." I said, [00:59:24] "Come on, Senator." I said, 'I expected [00:59:26] more, especially from you.' He got very [00:59:29] angry and he says, "Look, it took [00:59:31] everything I had just to not lose my [00:59:33] security clearance." [00:59:35] >> And I said, "Oh, you're afraid of them." [00:59:37] >> Oh, [00:59:38] >> that's what it is. You're afraid of [00:59:41] them. [00:59:42] >> Afraid of losing his clearance or afraid [00:59:44] of what exactly? Oh, I think on the [00:59:47] first level afraid of losing his [00:59:49] clearance, on the second level, afraid [00:59:51] of them maybe turning on him and [00:59:54] starting to look at him and you know, [00:59:57] listen, there's this book, there's this [00:59:59] book called Three Felonies a Day by Dr. [01:00:02] Harvey Silverglate. He's a professor of [01:00:04] law at Harvard University. And he says [01:00:06] that we are so overcriminalized, [01:00:09] so overregulated in this country that [01:00:13] the average American on the average day [01:00:15] going about his or her normal business [01:00:17] commits three felonies every single day. [01:00:20] With the point being if they want to get [01:00:22] you, they're going to get you. [01:00:24] >> Well, in my case, they made up felonies [01:00:26] that I didn't even commit. [01:00:27] >> See, and then there's that. [01:00:29] >> Which is a whole other dark [01:00:31] >> Yeah. [01:00:32] So you're you're you're in the what was [01:00:34] the name of that congressman? [01:00:36] >> Uh that was uh Senator Ron Wid. [01:00:38] >> Senator Ron Widen from is it? Oregon [01:00:41] >> and and he got upset at you that you [01:00:43] weren't more grateful to him. [01:00:44] >> Yeah. [01:00:45] >> For you know [01:00:46] >> for what? I have no idea. [01:00:47] >> Yeah. It's kind of strange. [01:00:49] >> It's it really is the the issue I would [01:00:51] say of our time of today of tomorrow of [01:00:55] this year and every I'm an investigative [01:00:57] reporter and I put out this stuff people [01:00:59] but nothing happens to these people. [01:01:02] That's just how people feel, which, you [01:01:04] know, [01:01:05] >> I I I believe that exposure, [01:01:08] >> you know, Benjamin Franklin said, "I'd [01:01:10] rather have newspapers with no [01:01:11] government than government with no [01:01:12] newspapers." I believe exposure is the [01:01:14] accountability [01:01:16] >> that that people see. [01:01:17] >> It's the disinfectant that we need. [01:01:18] >> It's a disinfectant. But what the hell [01:01:20] is going on is the I don't know the [01:01:22] answer to this. It's it's and I think [01:01:25] you've answered it to a degree that the [01:01:27] swamp takes care of its own. that the [01:01:28] administrative state is there for 42 [01:01:30] years that that the senator is afraid of [01:01:33] his security being taken away. I I think [01:01:36] about this question and I to me it's [01:01:38] almost like [01:01:41] >> I I I don't know the the the incentives [01:01:45] are completely off. Like in other words, [01:01:48] my my hypothesis is if I hold a bad guy [01:01:52] accountable in my life, let's say I I c [01:01:56] I hold people accountable every week. I [01:01:57] catch people on tape. [01:01:59] >> They admit to doing things they [01:02:00] shouldn't be doing. [01:02:01] >> They lose their contracts. They lose [01:02:03] their job. They [01:02:05] >> People get fired in my videos. [01:02:07] >> So, as a result of that, they sue me. [01:02:10] >> Right. [01:02:10] >> Now, it's your fault. [01:02:12] >> They Yeah. Now, under a torchious theory [01:02:14] of damage and blah blah blah. Now, that [01:02:16] probably won't work in in a federal [01:02:18] court if I litigate it to to summary [01:02:21] judgement, [01:02:22] >> but that's what they do. So I I get [01:02:26] >> I get pain inflicted upon me, [01:02:29] >> for for exposing them, for doing the [01:02:32] right thing, for reporting what they [01:02:34] say, for revealing it to the American [01:02:36] people. And you you you went through [01:02:37] something similar. You went to prison [01:02:39] with really bad ombres. [01:02:41] >> Yeah. [01:02:42] >> For speaking out against something that [01:02:44] appears to be unconstitutional. Is that [01:02:46] correct? [01:02:46] >> I agree. [01:02:47] >> So the people that tell the truth get [01:02:48] punished. [01:02:49] >> Yes. [01:02:50] Um, so my theory, tell me if this is [01:02:53] right or wrong, is that the people in [01:02:55] charge, the attorney general, the the [01:02:58] powers that be, don't don't go after the [01:03:02] bad guys because they will be punished [01:03:04] if they do that. Is that is that [01:03:06] correct? [01:03:06] >> That's exactly what my belief is. That's [01:03:09] my position. Yes. [01:03:10] >> Tell us more about that. Like, how does [01:03:12] that like is it because they're going to [01:03:14] take away his security clearance? [01:03:16] They're going to, you know, not let him [01:03:17] run for reelection. like is is that what [01:03:19] it's about? [01:03:20] >> I think it's [01:03:22] it's even not as straightforward as [01:03:24] that. Um [01:03:27] there's [01:03:29] there's this fear that you're not going [01:03:31] to be [01:03:33] an insider anymore. You're not going to [01:03:35] be a part of the the group, the click, [01:03:39] you know, who gets all the the great [01:03:41] secret inside information. There was [01:03:44] this brief period from 1975 to 1982 [01:03:48] where the Senate Select Committee on [01:03:50] Intelligence and the House Permanent [01:03:52] Select Committee on Intelligence did [01:03:53] honest to God oversight, right? Where [01:03:56] the CIA, [01:03:57] >> what years were those? [01:03:58] >> 75 to 82, [01:04:00] >> where the CIA had to operate within the [01:04:03] confines of the law. And if you don't [01:04:04] like that the law puts handcuffs on you, [01:04:07] then change the law, [01:04:09] >> right? We can all agree to disagree. and [01:04:12] if you disagree, sponsor legislation and [01:04:15] we can have that that debate. But then [01:04:17] starting around 1982 [01:04:20] and and really culminating in around [01:04:23] 1995, [01:04:25] the oversight committees just decided to [01:04:27] give up. And on the one hand, it's [01:04:30] impossible for a staff of 60, 70, 80 [01:04:33] people on Capitol Hill to oversee an [01:04:36] intelligence community of what? 60,000 [01:04:39] 70,000 people. It's just not possible. [01:04:43] And so you pick and choose your battles [01:04:45] until you can't even do that anymore. [01:04:48] >> I think that's what we've seen. [01:04:50] >> Binders of classified things. They they [01:04:52] bring you into a skiff and you can't [01:04:54] bring a phone. And [01:04:55] >> that's right. It's like, you know, [01:04:57] thousand congressman was one congressman [01:04:59] was telling me about that. I was like, [01:05:00] whoa. Yeah. [01:05:01] >> And then, hey, what was what is that? [01:05:03] What is that word that one word for that [01:05:05] secret operation and then they bring out [01:05:07] another binder just for that one? [01:05:08] >> Exactly. And then you have to sign a [01:05:10] secrecy agreement to open that binder. [01:05:11] >> That's insane. [01:05:12] >> Mhm. [01:05:13] >> That's wild. Terrible. [01:05:15] >> And do they get I mean the general [01:05:17] public assumes that they get compromat [01:05:19] compromising material and all these [01:05:21] politicians. Is that does that happen? [01:05:23] You know, I've always been of the belief [01:05:24] that yeah, that was true uh at the FBI. [01:05:27] That wasn't my experience at the CIA [01:05:30] just because they don't have the [01:05:31] wherewithal to do it domestically. I [01:05:33] will say though that my first boss, now [01:05:36] this is dated, [01:05:37] >> but my first boss [01:05:39] >> told me that his first job at the CIA [01:05:42] was as an intern. He was a grad fellow [01:05:45] in the um office of um what was it [01:05:48] called? Um counter intelligence. [01:05:51] And on his first day, he went in there [01:05:53] and there was an entire wall just of [01:05:55] file folders. And the secretary told [01:05:57] him, "You might find yourself to be the [01:05:59] only person in the office once or twice. [01:06:01] Whatever you do, don't look at those [01:06:04] files." And he said, "Well, of course, [01:06:06] you know, the minute that he's the only [01:06:07] person in the office, he went and looked [01:06:09] at the files and every single one of [01:06:11] those files was on an American citizen." [01:06:13] >> Whoa. [01:06:14] >> Mhm. [01:06:15] >> That was in the CIA guy said that. That [01:06:17] was a dumb thing for him to say. Don't [01:06:18] look at that. [01:06:19] >> Don't look at that. something that a spy [01:06:21] shouldn't say. [01:06:22] >> But yeah, to answer your question, I I [01:06:24] believe that that compromat is something [01:06:25] that the FBI and God knows the stories [01:06:28] from Jay. Edgar Hoover, he was [01:06:30] collecting that stuff from the 1920s. [01:06:32] >> Yeah. I when I was raided by the FBI, I [01:06:34] I'm I'm also don't consider myself a [01:06:37] particularly fearful person. But what [01:06:39] struck me when they raided me, this is [01:06:41] in 2020, 2021, they got secret warrants [01:06:44] against me to spy on my newsroom, which [01:06:46] is its own constitutional crisis. the [01:06:48] attorney general expressly forbids it, [01:06:50] blah blah blah. The two two parts of [01:06:52] fear struck me when they did that to me. [01:06:54] Number one, it was like you said you you [01:06:56] said um they enforced the law between 75 [01:06:58] and 82. It was the breakdown of the law [01:07:01] itself that there was no the concept of [01:07:04] justice is proportional were all equal [01:07:06] before the law. The law means something. [01:07:08] But when words ceased to have meaning [01:07:10] when when Merrick Garland can say you [01:07:13] cannot raid a newsroom and then raids a [01:07:16] newsroom. [01:07:16] >> Yeah. It became like a animal farm. All [01:07:19] all animals are equal, but some are more [01:07:21] equal than others. That's when the fear [01:07:23] set into me. I was like, whoa, [01:07:25] >> this is a postconstitutional [01:07:28] exact dynamic. [01:07:29] >> And the second thing that really hit me [01:07:31] hard and again I'm being very vulnerable [01:07:32] for the audience to give them some [01:07:34] background into what you're saying was [01:07:36] after the raid um I had nothing in my [01:07:39] apartment except books and clothes. They [01:07:42] were looking for contraband, looking for [01:07:43] weapons. [01:07:45] And I was like, are they putting child [01:07:48] porn in my drawer? Are they putting [01:07:50] cocaine? And my mind went to went to [01:07:53] places I didn't I didn't want it to go. [01:07:55] And I'd never felt that before. And I [01:07:57] was I was totally I mean, I mean this [01:07:59] sincerely, I was totally overcome by a [01:08:02] paralysis of fear. [01:08:03] >> Oh my god. Yes. [01:08:04] >> Have you ever been there? [01:08:05] >> Yes. And I've actually written about [01:08:07] exactly that. after my case which Donald [01:08:13] Trump's first US attorney in Utah called [01:08:16] the Democratic party's template [01:08:20] for lawfare. [01:08:23] Um there was a a series of four or five [01:08:27] whistleblower cases where like magic [01:08:31] child pornography was found on every one [01:08:34] of these computers. [01:08:35] >> And I wrote this piece. I said, "Isn't [01:08:37] that a strange coincidence that child [01:08:41] porn is always on the whistleblowers uh [01:08:44] computers?" And in fact, there was one [01:08:46] whistleblower uh from the US Army who [01:08:49] said, "I never had any child pornography [01:08:51] on my computer." And then when the judge [01:08:54] demanded to see the pornography that was [01:08:57] pulled off the computer, the prosecution [01:09:00] couldn't produce it. [01:09:02] So yeah, that's a great fear of mine and [01:09:05] I think it's something that all [01:09:06] Americans should fear. Again, if they [01:09:08] want to get you, they're going to get [01:09:10] you. Has that changed? Is the dynamic [01:09:12] changed present day? And I and I've got [01:09:15] about 15 minutes left with you. I want [01:09:17] to go to Epstein. Has the dynamic [01:09:19] changed in that the Elon Musk's purchase [01:09:22] of X sort of populist social media [01:09:24] movements that we're seeing [01:09:26] >> that it's like come on. It's like [01:09:28] remember the old 60 Minutes Mike Wallace [01:09:29] question? Oh, come on. There's child [01:09:32] porn on the journalist's phone. Or is it [01:09:35] still a huge threat? [01:09:36] >> No, I think it's I think it's [01:09:38] significantly better under Donald Trump. [01:09:41] >> Mhm. [01:09:41] >> Yeah. Significantly better. [01:09:43] >> Let's talk about Jeff Epstein. And [01:09:46] you've you've talked about this on so [01:09:47] many podcasts. I'm going to try to ask [01:09:49] you questions you haven't been asked. [01:09:50] And I'm going to start by [01:09:53] >> talking about Andrew, if we could pull [01:09:54] up the clips specifically on the CI. By [01:09:58] the way, we have two pieces of footage [01:10:00] from investigations that we've done from [01:10:02] individuals who have claimed they work [01:10:04] with or for the CIA. [01:10:06] >> I've seen them. [01:10:06] >> You've seen the guy. Remember the guy [01:10:08] that was fired and in Langley for saying [01:10:09] he withheld information from Trump, [01:10:11] which by the way, I went to Langley to [01:10:13] do an on camera and people were driving. [01:10:16] >> Well, I was on the the the highway [01:10:19] outside the building. I forget the name [01:10:20] of the road. [01:10:21] >> Yeah. Dolly Madison Highway. [01:10:22] >> Yeah. That and and I was standing as [01:10:24] close as I could with the office. If you [01:10:27] set foot two feet that way, we'll arrest [01:10:29] you. And as people were driving out of [01:10:31] of the building, they actually rolled [01:10:33] down the keep going, O'Keefe. The FBI [01:10:37] wouldn't do that. [01:10:38] >> No, the FBI wouldn't do that. [01:10:40] >> The FBI wouldn't do that. And and I [01:10:42] think it was Congressman Nunees who said [01:10:44] that, and this is a broad [01:10:46] generalization, but I've heard this from [01:10:48] a number of conservatives, that [01:10:50] generally speaking, this is in 2023 and [01:10:52] 24, that the FBI was more corrupt than [01:10:55] the the CIA. That that's the that's the [01:10:57] >> I always believed that. And in fact, [01:11:00] since my conviction, [01:11:02] um, I've received emails from three of [01:11:05] the FBI agents involved in my case [01:11:08] apologizing for targeting me and [01:11:11] prosecuting me. They said that they were [01:11:13] ordered to do so. [01:11:14] >> Yeah. [01:11:14] >> And there was nothing they could do. [01:11:16] >> Following orders. Well, there is [01:11:17] something they could do. They could [01:11:18] resign. [01:11:18] >> They could resign, [01:11:19] >> but they're not they don't choose to do [01:11:20] that. [01:11:20] >> See, again, it's the same at the CIA. [01:11:22] You don't want to rock the boat. You [01:11:23] don't want to jeopardize. [01:11:24] >> By and large, the the the I hate to use [01:11:27] this term. It's a it's a not a correct [01:11:30] term of art, but the rank and file. [01:11:32] >> Yes. [01:11:32] >> Of the CIA. I would generally good [01:11:35] people. [01:11:36] >> Yeah. [01:11:36] >> 80% or whatever. [01:11:38] >> Patriotic, smart, hardworking people who [01:11:41] want to do nothing more than to serve [01:11:43] the American people. [01:11:44] >> So, let's go to this uh clip from this [01:11:46] is Glenn Prager on an airplane. We [01:11:48] recorded this earlier this year speaking [01:11:51] about Epstein and he works with or for [01:11:55] the FBI interviewing the Epstein [01:11:57] victims. Glenn Prager. Go ahead. A CIA. [01:12:00] Go ahead. [01:12:01] >> It's not talked about yet, but it's soon [01:12:03] come out that he was a CIA. [01:12:06] >> He was a CIA. [01:12:07] >> He wasn't a CIA. I think he's protecting [01:12:09] a lot of other people. Well, it's not [01:12:10] he's not protecting himself cuz there's [01:12:12] nothing there, but he's protecting a lot [01:12:14] of people [01:12:14] >> because Trump's now saying it's a hoax [01:12:16] of the case like a hoax or something. I [01:12:18] mean, you know, it's not a hoax. He's [01:12:21] been on the plane, you know, many times. [01:12:23] >> It's just he was never on the plane with [01:12:25] the kids. I've seen the itineraries and [01:12:27] and I've interviewed all of the victims. [01:12:29] There's never been an instance where [01:12:30] Trump was on a plane with these kids [01:12:33] >> and the rape occurred, but that can't be [01:12:35] said for Clinton and it can't be said [01:12:37] for others. while the [01:12:41] >> And we have another clip where Prager [01:12:43] talks about Epstein being um was it was [01:12:48] it Israel some comment he made working [01:12:51] with Israel working for Israel. Uh but [01:12:54] in any event he uh he talks about um I [01:12:58] guess first your reaction to that just [01:13:00] watching that this is a guy just some [01:13:02] context. is Glenn Prager interviewed the [01:13:04] victims in Palm Beach County uh for the [01:13:07] Department of Justice [01:13:11] >> on what he thinks is the case. What's [01:13:13] your perspective? [01:13:14] >> Yeah, I I think that most Americans who [01:13:17] have followed this story assumed that [01:13:20] that was the case. And now that we've [01:13:23] had this trunch of 3 million more [01:13:26] documents, it's pretty well proven it. [01:13:29] and and have you been going through [01:13:31] those documents any any highlights any [01:13:34] pullaways that you headlines that you've [01:13:37] come across? [01:13:38] >> There's something that's been very very [01:13:39] intriguing to me. The former Obama White [01:13:42] House counsel Katherine Rumler who's now [01:13:44] the general counsel for Goldman Sachs [01:13:47] making probably more money than she can [01:13:49] count. Uh repeatedly repeatedly tried to [01:13:53] get uh CIA director John Brennan to have [01:13:57] lunch with Jeffrey Epste. She and [01:13:59] Epstein apparently were very close. That [01:14:01] wasn't necessarily new, but uh there was [01:14:05] one email that was new where she emailed [01:14:08] Epstein and said, "CIA director John [01:14:11] Brennan gave me the CIA's highest honor [01:14:14] this morning." Pretty cool, huh? Or [01:14:16] pretty neat, huh? And um and then when [01:14:19] Epstein was going to be in Washington, [01:14:22] she repeatedly went back to him saying, [01:14:25] "Let me set up a lunch with John [01:14:27] Brennan. you're going to like John [01:14:28] Brennan. Let me set up this lunch with [01:14:30] John Brennan. We don't know if they [01:14:32] ended up having lunch, but she was [01:14:34] working very hard to get John Brennan [01:14:37] together with Jeffrey Epstein. [01:14:38] >> Why? [01:14:41] >> Oh, I've gone through so many of these [01:14:43] documents. It's it's it's [01:14:46] 100% fact now that that Epstein was [01:14:49] working for the Israelis, but he doesn't [01:14:51] appear to just have been an Israeli [01:14:53] access agent. And it looks like he had [01:14:56] sort of offered himself up to the CIA, [01:14:59] to MI6, to MI5, to maybe the Germans. [01:15:03] There there could have been other [01:15:04] services as well. And then we learned [01:15:08] what just a few days ago [01:15:10] >> that his attorneys actually sought [01:15:13] confirmation from the CIA and from the [01:15:16] National Security Council that Epstein [01:15:19] was acting as an informant. [01:15:21] >> Access agent to the to the foreign [01:15:23] interest. [01:15:24] >> Yes. [01:15:25] >> An in Epstein is an informant and an [01:15:27] access agent to the foreign interest the [01:15:29] same thing or different? [01:15:31] >> Uh [01:15:33] there are minor differences. [01:15:36] The the point that I've been making is [01:15:38] that [01:15:40] if you're a foreign intelligence [01:15:42] service, let's say in this case you're [01:15:43] the you're the Mossad, you're not going [01:15:45] to recruit Bill Clinton or Prince [01:15:48] Andrew, you're not going to recruit Bill [01:15:50] Gates. So, you do the next best thing. [01:15:52] You recruit somebody who has access to [01:15:54] them and who these guys trust. [01:15:56] >> And then if you have a little compromat [01:15:58] hanging over their heads at the same [01:15:59] time, that's even better. So, we we'll [01:16:01] get to we'll get to the Israel thing in [01:16:04] a minute because I mean I mean I'm I'm [01:16:05] going to be honest with you. This is a [01:16:06] this is a hot this is a hot button. This [01:16:08] is a hot topic. Charlie Kirk, close [01:16:10] friend. He was friends with a lot of [01:16:12] people. But I went to the Turning Point [01:16:14] thing in in July and Tucker was on stage [01:16:16] and said the thing and [01:16:17] >> it really upset a lot of people. It [01:16:19] upset a lot of donors to the [01:16:20] conservative movement. And I'm I'm [01:16:22] trying to be fair. I'm trying to be [01:16:23] factual. So, how do you know with 100% [01:16:26] certainty that Epste was MSAD as a fact? [01:16:30] How do you know that? [01:16:31] >> I think that the documents, there are [01:16:32] too many documents talking about too [01:16:35] many incidents of contact with senior [01:16:37] Israeli military and intelligence [01:16:40] leaders to come to any other conclusion. [01:16:42] I happen to be on the Pierce Morgan show [01:16:44] a couple of months ago. Uh I Scott [01:16:47] Horton and I were on one side, Alan [01:16:49] Dersowitz and Danny Ayalon were on the [01:16:52] other side. And um and I said factually [01:16:55] the Israeli spy on the United States. [01:16:57] Mhm. [01:16:58] >> It's a fact, right? Jonathan Pard was [01:17:01] not an anomaly. The FBI will tell you [01:17:03] that there are at least [01:17:06] 187 undeclared Israeli intelligence [01:17:09] officers spread all across the United [01:17:11] States stealing our defense secrets, but [01:17:15] they're Israelis and we're close to the [01:17:17] Israelis and so we just pretend that [01:17:19] that's not a problem. Durowitz [01:17:22] practically had a stroke when I said it [01:17:24] and said first that that Epstein was not [01:17:28] uh an Israeli access agent that if he [01:17:30] had been he said I was his lawyer. If he [01:17:33] had been working for the Israelis I [01:17:35] could have gone to the White House and I [01:17:36] could have gotten him a more favorable [01:17:38] sentence. There there are documents in [01:17:40] this in this trunch of of three million [01:17:43] uh emails or what what as specifically [01:17:46] as you can. [01:17:47] >> What what facts or documents or exhibits [01:17:51] or that that that show that connection [01:17:53] to Israel? I mean this guy says it. [01:17:54] Prager Prager in the video says it but [01:17:57] you know it's it's hearsay. We don't [01:17:58] know if it we I can't verify what the [01:18:01] >> guy in the FBI is saying is true or [01:18:03] false. But what documents have you seen? [01:18:04] The documents I've seen are documents [01:18:07] where he's telling, for example, um, [01:18:10] Prime Minister Ahoud Barack, former [01:18:12] Prime Minister Ahoud Barack, that he's [01:18:14] secured documents from the likes of [01:18:15] Peter Mandelon, [01:18:17] >> uh, and Prince Andrew. We just learned [01:18:19] this what, yesterday, day before [01:18:20] yesterday, Peter Manderson, the former [01:18:22] uh, former British ambassador of the [01:18:24] United States that he has then sent to [01:18:26] the Israelis. Um, I know I know we got [01:18:29] to go, but I want to spend another I [01:18:31] want to show the other two clips, [01:18:32] Andrew, of the of the Epstein footage [01:18:34] and get John's reaction. Uh, let's go to [01:18:38] Attorney General Pam Bondi, Attorney [01:18:40] General of the United States. This is [01:18:41] this is footage that we broke in May of [01:18:44] this year and it's been regoing viral [01:18:46] now. So, if we could pull that clip up [01:18:49] and just for some context while we're [01:18:50] getting that clip, the attorney general [01:18:52] was in a restaurant. [01:18:53] >> Pause the clip. the attorney general [01:18:55] who's in a restaurant and I don't I [01:18:57] don't send people out to do this. [01:18:58] Sometimes people send me stuff. [01:19:00] >> Oh, that's fun. [01:19:00] >> Or they say, "Hey, I'm in a position [01:19:02] where I can record this." Um, and I and [01:19:06] this was a tough one for me because [01:19:09] I don't want to, you know, it's this is [01:19:12] a tough one to to whether we publish [01:19:13] this. And then Bondie went to the White [01:19:15] House and said what she was caught on [01:19:17] the video saying, "Play the footage in a [01:19:20] restaurant in DC from May of 2025. [01:19:23] vaccine [01:19:25] files are going to get released. [01:19:26] >> Um, we hope soon. [01:19:30] >> Okay. So, any dates? [01:19:32] >> No. You know what it is? There are tens [01:19:34] of thousands of videos. [01:19:37] >> Yeah. And it's all with little kids. So, [01:19:39] they have to go through every one. [01:19:42] >> There are tens of thousands of videos [01:19:44] with little kids. Now, was it Cash or or [01:19:49] Blanch or someone said recently, "Oh, [01:19:51] there's no there's no there's no play [01:19:54] the comparison. Play the other one of [01:19:55] the other statement. I want to get [01:19:56] John's reaction." This is the [01:20:00] latest statement from [01:20:02] Department. [01:20:03] >> Tens of thousands of videos with [01:20:07] children or child porn. If there was a [01:20:10] video of some guy committing felonies on [01:20:14] an island and I'm in charge, don't you [01:20:17] think you'd see it? [01:20:20] >> All right. So, that was an interesting [01:20:22] What are your thoughts on the child the [01:20:24] children and the child porn and all [01:20:26] that? [01:20:26] >> First of all, there's no in my mind [01:20:29] there's no more horrible crime that [01:20:31] exists than a crime on a child. Um, I I [01:20:35] would like to think that Pam Bondi was [01:20:38] speaking off the cuff and was [01:20:43] talking about what she expected to [01:20:46] learn, expected to see. I'm trying to [01:20:48] give her the benefit of the doubt here. [01:20:50] Um, I really believe that Cash Patel is [01:20:52] telling us the truth when he says [01:20:55] >> if there was any evidence of a crime, by [01:20:57] God, he would be the the guy to demand [01:20:59] that it be prosecuted. Um, that's why I [01:21:02] celebrated his appointment as as FBI [01:21:04] director because we we needed somebody [01:21:06] who's going to tear the place down to [01:21:07] the bare steps. How do you think he's [01:21:08] doing rebuild it? I think he's having a [01:21:10] tough time. [01:21:11] >> I think he's facing a lot of headwinds [01:21:12] and I think that he would tell you that [01:21:14] he has not accomplished what he thought [01:21:17] he could accomplish. [01:21:18] >> Is that due to the bureaucracy? I think [01:21:20] so. Yeah. [01:21:21] >> I I I say that if if you appointed Jesus [01:21:24] Well, Jesus can walk on water, so maybe [01:21:26] that's a bad tempor, but it's tough. [01:21:28] It's a tough job. [01:21:29] >> It's a tough job. So, how do you think [01:21:30] Pam Bondi is doing? [01:21:33] >> I like Pam Bondi and I think she means [01:21:37] well, but I don't think she's [01:21:39] accomplished as much as most of us [01:21:42] expected she would have accomplished by [01:21:43] now. [01:21:44] >> So, she so she could have been speaking [01:21:46] off the cuff like many subjects do. [01:21:48] >> I really believe that [01:21:48] >> it is a little the question is should [01:21:50] the attorney general of the United [01:21:51] States be [01:21:54] >> sharing all this with a stranger in a in [01:21:56] a in a coffee shop? is that that there [01:21:59] are questions about the discernment and [01:22:01] the judgment of the chief law [01:22:02] enforcement officer of the Department of [01:22:04] Justice there. And then uh do we have [01:22:07] any other clips from from Epstein team? [01:22:11] >> Schnit. One. One more. One more. This is [01:22:14] Schnit talking about um Gelain Maxwell [01:22:17] and the deal or the alleged secret deal [01:22:19] that she got. Let's play this guy who [01:22:21] was fired from the Department of Justice [01:22:22] after we recorded this. [01:22:24] >> Yeah. also indulge [01:22:26] >> got transferred to a minimum security [01:22:28] prison too recently [01:22:30] >> which is against BP policy because she's [01:22:34] she's a convicted sex [01:22:36] >> and they're not supposed to be put in [01:22:37] security prison which is an interesting [01:22:40] >> detail because she's getting a benefit [01:22:43] which means they're offering her [01:22:45] something [01:22:46] >> transferred to a minimum security prison [01:22:49] in exchange for a deal. Your thoughts on [01:22:50] the Maxwell dynamic? [01:22:52] >> Yeah, I've written about this too. It is [01:22:54] absolutely anathema to BOP uh regulation [01:22:58] to allow a child sex offender to be [01:23:02] anywhere near a minimum security prison. [01:23:04] They can't be in maximum or medium [01:23:06] because they'll be killed there. [01:23:07] >> They can't be in minimum because they [01:23:09] can just walk away [01:23:11] >> and have access to a child again. They [01:23:13] have to be in a low security prison, [01:23:15] which is where she was until her [01:23:19] transfer was ordered. Something I just [01:23:21] have no understanding of. Do you believe [01:23:22] that what that man said is probably [01:23:24] true? [01:23:26] >> Yeah. [01:23:26] >> To keep her mouth shut. [01:23:27] >> I think it I think it is. [01:23:28] >> And and and again, I keep going keep [01:23:31] going back to accountability, but people [01:23:33] demanding to know why weren't they [01:23:35] arresting anybody as it pertains to [01:23:38] Epstein. Why? [01:23:41] >> You know, I hate to say it. It's it the [01:23:43] simplest [01:23:45] uh reason I think is the correct one. [01:23:46] The statute of limitations on just about [01:23:48] all of these crimes has expired or [01:23:51] haven't expired, [01:23:51] >> including against was it five years for [01:23:53] rape? [01:23:53] >> Five years. [01:23:54] >> Five five. Well, [01:23:55] >> that unless you can you can prove an [01:23:58] ongoing conspiracy in which case the [01:23:59] statute of limitations would reset [01:24:01] itself every day. [01:24:02] >> Well, that's what the guy said in our [01:24:04] video la last week. The FBI guess said, [01:24:05] "They'll run the statute out. There'll [01:24:08] be a different president." He was just [01:24:09] being honest. [01:24:10] >> Yeah, he was being honest. [01:24:11] >> They fired him for being honest. [01:24:14] >> There it is. That's Washington. This is [01:24:16] go. [01:24:16] >> Harry Truman said, "If you want a friend [01:24:18] in Washington, buy a dog." [01:24:20] >> I mean, it's almost true of human [01:24:21] nature, isn't it? [01:24:22] >> They fire you for being honest and the [01:24:25] child rapists go free. [01:24:27] >> That's right. [01:24:28] >> And it's not necessarily, you know, I'm [01:24:30] just, this is my commentary. I don't [01:24:31] know if it's Cash's fault. I I I like [01:24:33] Cash. I've met Cash. I don't think [01:24:35] Bondie's a I I don't I don't actually [01:24:37] can't make a comment on on her. I've met [01:24:39] her once at a dinner. I I don't know if [01:24:42] it's the individual. I think it's the [01:24:44] nature of humanity, human nature. [01:24:45] >> I I think you're right. [01:24:46] >> Bureaucracy. [01:24:47] >> I think you're right. [01:24:48] >> So, in many ways, what you're fighting [01:24:50] against and what I'm fighting against [01:24:53] appears to be human nature itself. [01:24:55] >> And that's why it's such a tough fight. [01:24:57] >> It is. It is a it's a it's a difficult [01:24:59] fight. And and the American [01:25:02] republic, the American experiment, we [01:25:05] have a very unique framework because we [01:25:07] have by camera legislature and [01:25:09] separation of powers. Um, [01:25:12] this is a very big question I'm asking [01:25:14] you, but are we at the end of the rope [01:25:17] for the American experiment? [01:25:19] >> You know what? As things stand today, I [01:25:21] think actually that we are. I hate to [01:25:23] say that, but there's going to have to [01:25:24] be a major constitutional reset where [01:25:28] the legislative and and judicial [01:25:31] branches of government reassert their [01:25:33] co-equal authorities. [01:25:36] Otherwise, you know, we're we're kind of [01:25:39] devolving into into chaos [01:25:42] >> factions like like the federalist [01:25:44] papers. I think so. [01:25:45] >> Is that what you mean? Like mobs. [01:25:46] >> Yeah, I do. I think so. [01:25:47] >> Like in the Minnesota you saw in the [01:25:49] agitation? And and and I hate to ask [01:25:52] predict the future questions. I don't [01:25:54] answer them, but I am going to ask you a [01:25:55] predict the future question. [01:25:57] >> Are we looking at like a few years? Is [01:26:00] it the next election? Like what's going [01:26:02] to happen? [01:26:03] >> No, I think this is an incremental [01:26:04] process. Okay. I really do. I I don't [01:26:07] think it's going to be revolutionary in [01:26:09] any way. I think it it'll be [01:26:10] evolutionary. It'll continue to get [01:26:13] worse, but it it's not just going to [01:26:15] explode. I don't think we're seeing [01:26:17] 1968, 1969 all over again, but I think [01:26:20] we're getting there incrementally. [01:26:22] >> Well, what strikes me is the political [01:26:23] prosecutions because, you know, they go [01:26:25] after all the Republicans and now [01:26:27] Trump's kind of attempting with Lemon [01:26:29] and these others, but I don't know if [01:26:31] there I don't I don't know if those [01:26:32] cases are going to are going to go [01:26:34] anywhere. and Biden raided my newsroom [01:26:36] and that was dropped because that was [01:26:38] there wasn't even a colorable crime, [01:26:39] right? But it is there going to be a [01:26:42] dant like where both sides or is it just [01:26:44] going to be [01:26:45] >> like Brazil these guys get in power and [01:26:48] they go to prison? What's your what's [01:26:49] your prediction? [01:26:51] >> We're going to have to back away from [01:26:52] that. It's it's it's certain death for [01:26:55] the system. [01:26:56] >> It really is because it's only going to [01:26:58] get worse unless the two sides back off. [01:27:02] And we really have to be able to believe [01:27:04] in the judiciary again. I [01:27:05] >> I think we've lost faith in our [01:27:07] institutions. Everyone asks which which [01:27:09] party appointed the judge. Yeah. Which [01:27:12] is completely [01:27:12] >> You said the first question [01:27:13] >> and I mean I I reject the premise. I [01:27:15] mean and and some article 3 courts are [01:27:18] not corrupt. I I I federal judges this [01:27:20] is my opinion. [01:27:22] >> Probably the least corrupt thing I've [01:27:24] seen I've seen a lot as of you [01:27:26] >> there still is for example the first [01:27:27] amendment is still generally upheld in [01:27:29] article 3 courts. Yes. [01:27:30] >> They haven't taken that away yet. [01:27:32] >> That's right. [01:27:32] >> But you got to litigate. You know who [01:27:34] stands to gain from all the political [01:27:35] prosecutions is the lawyers. [01:27:37] >> Yeah. [01:27:38] >> 1.1 million. [01:27:39] >> 1.15 million is what I still owe. [01:27:42] >> You still owe that? [01:27:43] >> Yeah. [01:27:44] >> And in our case, yeah, it's 25% of our [01:27:46] budget. The process is the punishment. [01:27:48] >> Well, the process is the punishment. [01:27:49] >> We're out of time and I could talk to [01:27:51] you for five more hours. fun. Is there [01:27:53] any closing comments you have about any [01:27:55] of what we've talked about or anything [01:27:56] you like [01:27:57] >> like you and I were talking about just [01:27:58] before we we started filming in our [01:28:01] guts. We know what the right thing to do [01:28:03] is. Always trust your gut. [01:28:06] >> Trust your gut. [01:28:07] >> Yeah. Your children are going to be [01:28:08] proud of you and you'll be able to sleep [01:28:09] at night. Sometimes it's hard. It's hard [01:28:13] for even if we know the right thing to [01:28:16] to How How do you trust? How do you know [01:28:18] what is your gut? How do you How do you [01:28:20] know what that is? that sensation. You [01:28:22] know, I I've I've always believed that [01:28:26] that human nature is such that [01:28:28] intellectually we know what the right [01:28:31] thing to do is, even if we don't always [01:28:33] do the right thing because because it's [01:28:36] you maybe it's easier to do the wrong [01:28:39] thing. Maybe you get a temporary [01:28:40] benefit. Uh but deep down we really know [01:28:45] what the right thing to do is. And I [01:28:47] think that even when it harms us [01:28:49] personally, I've been ruined. I I went [01:28:52] bankrupt. Friends and family members [01:28:56] walked away from me. I'm unemployable. I [01:28:58] I have to work for myself essentially. [01:29:02] But I like my life and I respect myself. [01:29:05] And I think for all of us, that's really [01:29:07] what it comes down to. Do you find that [01:29:08] people just one follow question to that [01:29:10] that people you're you hold a mirror up [01:29:13] to the other guys who didn't make the [01:29:16] difficult decisions that you made [01:29:18] therefore they kind of resent you or [01:29:20] they hate you because you have the balls [01:29:23] to do something they didn't do [01:29:24] >> I get that I the day after I blew the [01:29:26] whistle a a retired deputy director of [01:29:30] the CIA emailed me [01:29:32] >> and he said you've chosen a difficult [01:29:34] road [01:29:35] I only wish I had had the guts to do it [01:29:38] myself. [01:29:38] >> I only wish [01:29:40] >> or people will say to you, I can't do [01:29:43] what you do. [01:29:44] >> And your response is, yeah, you you [01:29:46] could. [01:29:46] >> Everybody could do what I did. [01:29:48] >> Everybody could, but they choose. [01:29:50] >> You make a decision not to. [01:29:53] >> I don't know if we can save the country [01:29:54] unless people do what you do. [01:29:56] >> Thank you. [01:29:57] >> As hard as it is and you [01:29:58] >> It's by the way, this is hard. [01:30:00] >> It is hard. [01:30:01] >> This is This is brutal. [01:30:04] >> Brutal. [01:30:06] I I I don't mean to make a joke, but [01:30:08] it's like Shakespeare said, "Put all the [01:30:10] lawyers at the bottom of the ocean." I [01:30:12] don't I mean, I'm I'm I'm sorry, but I'm [01:30:14] not sorry. They profit off corruption [01:30:18] and human suffering. [01:30:19] >> And I'm trying to get lawyers hired [01:30:21] here. And if you're watching and you [01:30:22] want to work as a as a general counsel, [01:30:24] we'll pay we'll pay you a quarter [01:30:25] million dollars a year, $300,000 a year, [01:30:27] but you're still going to have to take a [01:30:28] pay cut from that $1,000 an hour. It's [01:30:31] all about greed, isn't it? [01:30:32] >> Yeah. And I could have had a life where [01:30:34] I where I made a million dollars a year [01:30:36] using my talents. [01:30:38] It's it's it's it's the thing that gets [01:30:41] me. It's the betrayal of the good people [01:30:42] that do nothing. The good people that do [01:30:45] nothing. All that is required for the [01:30:47] triumph of evil is for good people. I'm [01:30:49] not angry at the evil. I'm angry at the [01:30:51] good who do nothing. That's right. [01:30:53] >> Do you feel the same way? [01:30:54] >> I do 100%. [01:30:55] >> That's how I feel every day. [01:30:57] >> Well, nice nice meeting you. Nice [01:30:59] talking to you. We'll we'll talk again. [01:31:01] >> I look forward to that. Thank you. What [01:31:03] is your price? [01:31:06] Because if your price is not your life, [01:31:12] then you are for sale.