Untitled Document

[00:00:00] Four years into the war, Europe remains [00:00:02] divided over Russia, confronted or [00:00:05] engaged. There are renewed calls for [00:00:07] dialogue with Putin, ongoing trade, and [00:00:10] a changing NATO. But along Russia's [00:00:13] borders, the threat was never abstract. [00:00:15] My guest today, a steadfast friend of [00:00:17] Ukraine, former president of Estonia and [00:00:20] president of the Estonian Olympic [00:00:22] Committee, Kirsty Kulite. Madame [00:00:25] President, welcome and I happy to see [00:00:27] you here in the studio of channel 24. [00:00:30] >> Thank you for your invitation. [00:00:32] >> Um, Madame President, so European [00:00:34] countries including Italy, France, [00:00:38] Germany, and the UK have now sent [00:00:40] representatives to the Geneva talks [00:00:42] between Ukraine, Russia, and the United [00:00:44] States. [00:00:46] Why does Europe see an opening to enter [00:00:50] the negotiation process at this stage of [00:00:52] the war after full four years of a [00:00:55] full-scale invasion? [00:00:57] >> Well, my guess is that because Americans [00:01:00] are talking to Russians anyway, then the [00:01:02] Europeans do not want to risk uh ending [00:01:05] up I mean facing the conclusions of that [00:01:07] talks and then having to negotiate among [00:01:11] ourselves a fair complee. So they want [00:01:13] to be behind the table not on the menu [00:01:15] so to say that's probably what is the [00:01:17] driving force but uh I will have to [00:01:20] remind our our viewers that uh it's not [00:01:23] European initiative Europe in a sense is [00:01:26] uh accepting the facts on the ground [00:01:28] which have been created by United States [00:01:30] of America and therefore they want to [00:01:33] make sure that they are not left out of [00:01:34] the debate and discussions. [00:01:37] Madame President, there are also voices [00:01:40] uh in Europe as I said in my intro that [00:01:42] they are calling for, you know, renewed [00:01:45] dialogue with Putin. Uh somebody's like [00:01:48] Emanuel Macron saying that we have to [00:01:50] call him again. Chancellor uh Chancellor [00:01:53] of Germany saying that it's going to be [00:01:55] empty calls, no sensitive. So do you see [00:01:58] this is a necessary diplomatic channel [00:02:00] let's call it that way diplomatic [00:02:02] channel or more as a you know individual [00:02:04] countries um seeking their own [00:02:08] arrangements and leverage with Moscow [00:02:11] >> I don't think they are seeking their own [00:02:13] arrangements with Moscow but they are [00:02:15] seeking very channels which could look [00:02:18] less formal maybe to uh kind of uh open [00:02:22] some kind of uh discussion to analyze [00:02:24] what is the feeling on the other side to [00:02:26] keep I in the touch of the things. I [00:02:28] think that is what we see what is going [00:02:30] on. I don't think nobody's planning to [00:02:32] sell out European interests in getting [00:02:34] behind the table themselves. This is not [00:02:36] the case. And as I said, I think the [00:02:38] main motivation for that is the [00:02:40] Americans talking to Russians. [00:02:42] >> Madame President, we're speaking just [00:02:44] after the Munich Security Conference [00:02:47] over where European leaders again was [00:02:50] focusing on Russia, on NATO and Europe's [00:02:53] long-term security. And uh as I opened a [00:02:57] trailer um of the Munich Security [00:03:00] Conference 2026, I saw on the big screen [00:03:03] the elephant and it says it's time to [00:03:05] address the elephants in the room. From [00:03:09] your perspective, other than Russia, who [00:03:12] else are those elephants? [00:03:16] >> One of the elephants certainly has been [00:03:18] called JDS. I think that is even the [00:03:21] vocabulary analog. [00:03:25] So basically indeed I think uh we need [00:03:27] to discuss I mean how the world has [00:03:29] changed and how it is changing how [00:03:31] China's economy in addition to United [00:03:33] States economy is developing compared to [00:03:35] the European economy that European [00:03:37] economic power powers is not growing is [00:03:40] certainly making our windows of [00:03:42] opportunity smaller and I believe this [00:03:45] was what was behind the ideas of the [00:03:47] organizers of the security conference [00:03:49] when they started uh started their [00:03:50] planning. Of course you start planning [00:03:52] and create slogans uh quite long before [00:03:55] the conference takes place. So new [00:03:57] connotations uh may arise and maybe this [00:04:00] was also the case for this time. But I [00:04:02] believe these were the elements we need [00:04:04] to have an honest discussion. Elephant [00:04:06] is there. So let's talk about him or [00:04:08] her. [00:04:09] >> Yeah. Or him or her. Okay. So um [00:04:11] European leaders spoke about deterring [00:04:14] Russia and strengthening NATO and yet at [00:04:17] the same time Europe is discussing [00:04:20] strategic autonomy and even a possible [00:04:24] nuclear umbrella without the United [00:04:26] States. From where is Sonia stands? Is [00:04:30] this about making NATO stronger or this [00:04:32] approach or uh preparing for a future in [00:04:35] which Europe may have to defend itself [00:04:38] with a less certainty about the United [00:04:41] States guarantees? [00:04:43] >> Well, Estonia has had to adapt like all [00:04:46] countries and like small countries. [00:04:47] Well, what you try to do when the ice is [00:04:49] breaking, you try to find the biggest uh [00:04:52] pieces of of ice which can carry you [00:04:54] forward and and of course Europe is one [00:04:56] of our these hopes and the other is [00:04:58] Nordic Baltic Gate for the Baltic states [00:05:00] which is a group of countries which are [00:05:02] very similar in their in their worldview [00:05:05] ready to spend quite a lot on their [00:05:07] defense also doing it therefore maybe [00:05:10] being more confident than central [00:05:12] European nations are about our ability [00:05:14] to defend and deter. So basically these [00:05:18] are the things which we're doing. We we [00:05:20] really were quite uh assured that NATO [00:05:24] and its main uh kind of security [00:05:26] provider United States is indeed where [00:05:29] our focus on security discussions has to [00:05:32] be. But the world is changing. So your [00:05:34] eggs have to be in different baskets and [00:05:36] and luckily we have built already for a [00:05:38] decade really good defense cooperation, [00:05:41] practical cooperation with French, [00:05:43] stains, Brits, many uh many countries [00:05:46] who have uh been participating in EFB. [00:05:49] Also, Estonia and Germany have frank and [00:05:52] honest debates and discussions since the [00:05:54] beginning of the Ukraine war which [00:05:55] started about uh what kind of equipment [00:05:58] we can transfer to Ukrainians and now is [00:06:00] I mean reaching to the stage what kind [00:06:04] of contribution Germany can provide to [00:06:06] the European defense which in case would [00:06:09] be strong enough to uh deter Russian [00:06:12] threat even if there may be temporary I [00:06:14] hope misunderstandings about the [00:06:16] Americans role in it. Do you think [00:06:18] >> about nuclear about nuclear deterrence [00:06:21] I'm very much welcoming in discussing [00:06:23] this issue uh how the French deterrent [00:06:26] which is the most independent deterrent [00:06:28] can uh can indeed uh create a nuclear [00:06:31] umbrella all over the Europe as I said I [00:06:33] mean you have to have uh different [00:06:36] umbrellas nowadays and you cannot rely [00:06:38] on one world power also maybe because [00:06:41] politics has uh become quite [00:06:43] unpredictable 5 years from now situation [00:06:46] may be changed American ans are the most [00:06:48] reliable partner and who knows what is [00:06:50] going on in central European countries [00:06:53] >> different umbrellas. Okay, that sounds [00:06:56] uh yeah much very clear. Um but still [00:06:59] you know a lot of debate still revolves [00:07:02] around how not to provoke Russia. So do [00:07:05] you feel that Moscow still in reality in [00:07:08] fact is kind of a setting the boundaries [00:07:11] of what Europe feels you know safe to [00:07:14] do. [00:07:17] >> I believe that um those countries who [00:07:21] have to think about nuclear conflict [00:07:23] risk those who themselves are nuclear [00:07:26] powers they have kind of a different [00:07:29] sensitivity towards other nuclear [00:07:31] powers. And I know Ukrainians are quite [00:07:33] dismissive about for example Russian [00:07:36] tactical nukes saying that if you die it [00:07:38] doesn't matter I mean whether it was a [00:07:40] tactical nuke or a conventional tool. [00:07:42] And we know that the risk of long-term [00:07:44] radiation from those tools might not be [00:07:46] too bad. So basically I mean Ukrainians [00:07:49] are very brave and they are facing an [00:07:52] intolerable situation anyway. Whereas [00:07:54] those countries who I mean own nuclear [00:07:57] weapons and therefore are responsible [00:07:59] for both their deterrent effect and also [00:08:02] that uh the threat of use of them is is [00:08:05] not overdone in the world. I mean they [00:08:07] they think differently and I well why we [00:08:10] may not share their fear I understand it [00:08:14] is there. Yeah, it is. It is. But also [00:08:17] speaking about Munich, in Munich, you [00:08:19] brought Madame President the Ukrainian [00:08:21] skeleton athlete with this love [00:08:23] scavenage after this uh Olympic scandal. [00:08:27] I would say many in Ukraine saw this as [00:08:29] a as a deeply unfair decision. And some [00:08:32] also argue that IOC is losing uh its [00:08:38] reputation for neutrality and [00:08:40] increasingly appears biased toward [00:08:42] Russia. As a president of the Estonian [00:08:45] Olympic Committee, how do you assess all [00:08:48] that case that happened on the Olympic [00:08:50] Games? [00:08:52] >> First, I want to inform you that I mean [00:08:54] the way international Olympic Committee [00:08:56] is built that its members are individual [00:08:58] people. I mean basically we have uh ANO [00:09:02] which is a kind of body which uh [00:09:04] combines all national Olympic committees [00:09:06] but Estonia as such is not uh kind of a [00:09:09] part of IOC discussions because [00:09:12] Estonians do not have a single member of [00:09:14] international Olympic committee. [gasps] [00:09:16] Of course we have been discussing uh [00:09:18] this issue intensely before the Olympic [00:09:21] Games. We sent together with our Baltic [00:09:23] neighbors a letter to international [00:09:26] Olympic committee and our secretaries [00:09:27] generals discussed this and this was [00:09:30] concerning the uh future presentation of [00:09:32] Russian sports sportsmen and Russian as [00:09:35] well in international sports and we are [00:09:38] strongly opposing this but we are not in [00:09:40] majority in this thinking uh in uh in [00:09:43] Olympic movement I can tell you and [00:09:46] therefore what we can do is while I mean [00:09:49] sometimes maybe also So breaking the [00:09:51] rules like happened in the case of uh [00:09:54] the skeleton driver Hers Gage but also [00:09:56] sometimes playing within the rules to I [00:09:59] mean kind of point out that we are not [00:10:01] satisfied with uh with uh moving forward [00:10:03] kind of bringing the uh sportsmen from [00:10:06] uh aggression countries uh into into [00:10:09] into the games and also into [00:10:11] international sports. On the other hand, [00:10:13] I recognize there is no majority for our [00:10:16] worldview right now in uh in [00:10:18] international sports movement. It's it's [00:10:20] sad, but it's true. [00:10:23] >> But as a president of the Estonian on [00:10:25] the committee, you've been you've been [00:10:28] very clear against allowing Russian [00:10:30] athletes back into international sports [00:10:32] as far as I understood. So, do you think [00:10:34] global sports system still [00:10:37] underestimates its moral and political [00:10:40] responsibility in Russia's war against [00:10:42] Ukraine? [00:10:44] Well, good thing is that the sports [00:10:46] community is discussing this issue quite [00:10:49] intensely also here in Munich and [00:10:51] therefore it cannot kind of slip [00:10:53] anybody's eyes that that is an issue [00:10:55] about I mean if sport is about peace [00:10:58] then I mean can it be I mean standing [00:11:02] for peace standing aside from the most [00:11:04] intense conflicts in the world or it [00:11:07] cannot so uh I believe also the [00:11:10] developments in the in the skeleton [00:11:12] track have actually kind of put forward [00:11:16] uh this discussion further and myself [00:11:18] I'm tomorrow morning having having [00:11:20] breakfast with my colleagues from [00:11:22] Belgian National Olympic Committee uh [00:11:25] where we have in European Olympic [00:11:27] Committee we have created an [00:11:28] international and EU relations task [00:11:31] force where I am a member but I'm not [00:11:34] participating because there is also a [00:11:36] Bellarussian Olympic committee secretary [00:11:38] general so we will discuss I mean how [00:11:41] how how we could I I mean I mean change [00:11:44] this situation that I could participate [00:11:46] but well I'm not very hopeful but at [00:11:48] least it is something which is making [00:11:51] life uncomfortable for those who only [00:11:54] want to say sport is for peace therefore [00:11:56] we just stand aside from uh from all [00:11:58] conflicts. On the other hand, I would [00:12:01] also like to say that um [00:12:04] maybe maybe uh we have means and ways [00:12:09] when Russian athletes are back not to [00:12:13] for example boycott the competitions but [00:12:15] I'm looking for example which kind of [00:12:18] rules there are what you can wear I mean [00:12:20] on sports competitions. So as much [00:12:22] yellow and blue as possible in the face [00:12:25] of when we have to face off sports [00:12:28] people from from those nations we could [00:12:30] allow I mean that's my question to my [00:12:32] own team and and we have to I mean go [00:12:34] through these rules because if we go for [00:12:37] boycotting international competitions [00:12:39] then we are just out and we have [00:12:41] forgotten for example Estonia was [00:12:44] supposed to have a fencing European [00:12:45] championships this year and we lost the [00:12:48] competition because our uh uh federation [00:12:51] and Our Olympic Committee understands [00:12:53] that we cannot guarantee that everybody [00:12:55] gets a visa. We don't want everybody to [00:12:57] get a visa to Estonia. The competition [00:13:00] was taken away from us and it is now [00:13:02] peacefully happening in France. So [00:13:04] obviously they were ready to give this [00:13:06] guarantee that every person gets a visa. [00:13:08] So it's a kind of ongoing fight where we [00:13:11] are where we are kind of having having [00:13:13] to invent and find smart ideas all the [00:13:16] time to keep the issue on table even if [00:13:19] it is not resolved in a way like our [00:13:21] moral compass shows. [00:13:24] I would like to refer to your foreign [00:13:26] minister Margus Takna interview recently [00:13:30] and he said that on the map uh on the [00:13:33] map Estonia may look like a logical [00:13:35] first target of Russia but he called the [00:13:39] idea of its of its vulnerability like a [00:13:42] fake news adding that if attacked the [00:13:45] war would be carried onto Russian [00:13:48] territory. Does this reflect a Baltic [00:13:51] view that security today is not only [00:13:54] about defense but about credible [00:13:58] retaliation against the aggressor? [00:14:02] >> Well, this is what the NATO's I mean [00:14:06] force programming plan has been itself [00:14:09] reading uh making itself ready for. I [00:14:12] mean if you listen to for example uh [00:14:14] former sucker general kali he says that [00:14:18] if European nations will fulfill the [00:14:21] NATO's decision about its force buildup [00:14:24] then all these messages are true now the [00:14:26] question is how quickly we can reach [00:14:28] that point that we're able to do it and [00:14:31] it is pretty obvious that I mean Nordic [00:14:33] Baltic countries are rushing forward [00:14:35] quicker than the others spending more [00:14:37] than the others and getting themselves [00:14:40] well uh more already. I mean to be able [00:14:43] to really make uh make uh it understood [00:14:46] for our adversary on the other side of [00:14:49] the lake papers that uh it's not worth [00:14:52] trying here in this corner of Europe [00:14:54] because these are the countries who have [00:14:57] exercised their mindset also their [00:14:59] political mindset as you can hear from [00:15:02] uh minister Takna that uh I mean we may [00:15:05] need to act very very quickly. On the [00:15:07] other hand, you must not forget that I [00:15:09] mean we are not alone. We have uh French [00:15:12] troops, British troops uh in uh in Dapa [00:15:15] which is 100 kilometers uh from Russian [00:15:18] border and it's it's a numerous amount [00:15:20] of soldiers clear messaging to Russia [00:15:23] that uh not worth a try. [00:15:26] >> Yeah, that was actually Madame President [00:15:28] my next question. Do you feel like NATO [00:15:30] today is like one for all and all for [00:15:32] one uh you know this approach? Do you [00:15:36] feel safe um in terms of a possible [00:15:40] somehow Russian aggressions against your [00:15:42] country? You know the troops of uh of [00:15:46] our British and French and other allies [00:15:49] have been posted to Estonia in full [00:15:52] knowledge that in Estonian law if we [00:15:56] come under aggression we do not first [00:15:58] call Brussels and start discussing I [00:16:00] mean what to do next but we will fight [00:16:03] and they are under the command of first [00:16:04] Estonian brigade infantry brigade. So [00:16:08] basically I mean it's it's kind of a [00:16:11] foregone conclusion that if Russia [00:16:13] attacks then our allies will be fighting [00:16:15] side by side with us and this is what is [00:16:18] I mean deterring Russia because they [00:16:21] knew there will be no time for [00:16:23] discussions in Brussels because it will [00:16:25] already be a foregone conclusion. [00:16:27] Everybody knows that in NATO. Everybody [00:16:29] knows that also in Brussels. But of [00:16:31] course, I mean the political messaging [00:16:33] and listening to generals can be quite [00:16:35] different. And luckily I also have the [00:16:37] chance to to hear what is General [00:16:40] Grinkovich saying, what is this what [00:16:42] other generals in NATO saying, our own [00:16:45] generals, they are doing very practical [00:16:47] things, very practical preparations to [00:16:50] be ready to deter and if absolutely [00:16:53] necessary to defend and they are keeping [00:16:56] this vector going in the same direction [00:16:58] all through these four years despite [00:17:00] kind of political fluctuations. So this [00:17:02] is what actually gives me the courage to [00:17:05] think that the deterrence is really not [00:17:06] failing us. [00:17:08] >> Yeah, you're right. Because when I'm [00:17:10] opening uh the the [00:17:13] you know what generals are thinking, [00:17:16] what analysts are thinking about [00:17:18] possible Russian invasion in NATO and [00:17:20] lots of people saying that NATO is dead [00:17:23] as United Nations for instance and then [00:17:26] some people are saying NATO as strong as [00:17:30] never been before. And I'm sometimes I'm [00:17:32] think like where are we? Where is the [00:17:35] truth? [00:17:37] >> Yeah, I mean that's what I explained to [00:17:39] you. I mean mechanically it has now been [00:17:42] built into NATO because of the EFP [00:17:45] presence in the Baltic states that this [00:17:47] is where we are. I mean practically if [00:17:50] Russia attacks there is no way of [00:17:52] avoiding a conflict between NATO and [00:17:54] Russia and therefore Russia probably [00:17:56] will not attack because Russians know [00:17:58] this very well as well. And of course I [00:18:00] mean political messaging for nations [00:18:04] which are which do not maybe feel [00:18:06] comfortable with this truth is different [00:18:08] than the military preparations are. And [00:18:11] I believe that has always been this way [00:18:13] in the world. But uh well nowadays when [00:18:16] where everything is so open so [00:18:18] transparent and we know probably much [00:18:20] more of NATO's force planning than we [00:18:22] would have known during the cold war. [00:18:24] This is the state of play where we have [00:18:26] to openly discuss these different [00:18:27] feelings in political circles and in [00:18:29] military circles. [00:18:32] >> Estonia has taken [00:18:34] some of the toughest measures in Europe [00:18:37] regarding Russian citizens and former [00:18:39] especially former military personnel. [00:18:42] Uh where in your view is this line [00:18:45] between necessary state security and [00:18:47] collective responsibility toward [00:18:50] Russians as a society? [00:18:53] Well, the basically you being Russian [00:18:57] has nothing to do with it. I mean, you [00:18:59] may be also a citizen of whatever [00:19:01] country. If you have fought on the [00:19:02] Russian side, I think you are security [00:19:04] risk and uh and we believe that taking [00:19:08] uh taking sharp and smart measures when [00:19:11] this uh issue starts to kind of rise to [00:19:13] the four because many soldiers are [00:19:15] leaving leaving the front going back to [00:19:17] the civilian life. We are going to see I [00:19:20] mean problems which are linked to these [00:19:24] persons and we will see them all over [00:19:25] Europe because Europe is a shenan area [00:19:27] and once in you can move wherever you [00:19:30] want. So having an open and honest [00:19:32] discussion what risks I mean these [00:19:35] persons [00:19:36] pose for our societies is a is a valid a [00:19:39] valid discussion to have and of course [00:19:42] Nordic and Baltic countries have never [00:19:43] been shy of having these discussions [00:19:46] whether Estonia is harsher I mean I [00:19:49] don't know I mean our borders uh borders [00:19:52] crossings are still one [clears throat] [00:19:54] of the very few uh at the NATO eastern [00:19:57] front which are open to uh travel uh for [00:20:00] uh for uh well between Russia and and uh [00:20:03] Shenhen space our Nordic neighbors have [00:20:06] uh closed the borders uh quite a long [00:20:08] time ago. So I think I mean we are doing [00:20:11] what is necessary for our safety and [00:20:14] security each and every country [00:20:16] depending on where Russians try to kind [00:20:18] of create uh cause and uh and and [00:20:21] problems for different countries. [00:20:23] Reactions have to be proportionate and [00:20:25] they have to be measured to the problem [00:20:27] you are facing. [00:20:30] Um yesterday I was uh uh reading [00:20:34] analytical article and I have a question [00:20:36] for you. Uh for decades there has been a [00:20:39] certain [00:20:41] western fascination with the great [00:20:44] Russia with its scale with its culture [00:20:47] and geopolitical weight and today we [00:20:50] sometimes you know see similar [00:20:52] narratives emerging about China even. So [00:20:55] why do western societies from your [00:20:57] perspective keep falling into this [00:21:00] attracting attraction of Russia to [00:21:02] authoritarian great powers? [00:21:07] >> Well, I do think that this is less of a [00:21:10] problem. More of a problem is that so [00:21:12] many Russians, even Russian dissident [00:21:15] believe in Russian supremacy. I mean [00:21:18] what Europeans believe is is less of a [00:21:20] problem. But what the what Russians [00:21:21] themselves think we know that even those [00:21:24] who oppose deeply the Putin regime are [00:21:26] very divided. There are those who say [00:21:29] Russians are a nation like any other and [00:21:31] should fit into international world [00:21:33] order abide by the rules. And then there [00:21:35] are others who still believe that [00:21:37] Russians are something special. And this [00:21:40] is what we need to really really fight [00:21:42] and also to explain to our European [00:21:44] friends that uh that even those people [00:21:47] who are honored as dissident in Russia [00:21:49] may still be Russian supremacist. This [00:21:51] is this is the real problem. Europeans [00:21:54] well they are bound by the cultural [00:21:57] cultural ties uh because uh all through [00:22:01] the Soviet period as well Russia has [00:22:04] kind of uh given more resources to their [00:22:10] uh well writers, composers, theater [00:22:13] artists, ballet dancers. This way they [00:22:16] have kept up a strong cultural presence [00:22:19] and this has kind of strategic [00:22:22] communication power in Europe. This is [00:22:24] what is the true soft power and we know [00:22:27] that in the Soviet time many people [00:22:29] cooperated with the uh Soviets even [00:22:32] writing uh writing plays and uh and uh [00:22:36] and stories which would suit the [00:22:39] communist party's worldview because for [00:22:41] that they got apartments and they got a [00:22:43] nice life. So we know how I mean Russia [00:22:46] works in this context and of course in [00:22:48] this kind of cultural incubator [00:22:51] is is it is ongoing that you put out [00:22:54] really I mean valuable culture which the [00:22:57] other side in Europe European culture [00:22:59] circles to realize as as adding value to [00:23:02] European culture. So this is this real [00:23:04] demonstration of soft power I believe. [00:23:06] Madame President, at the beginning you [00:23:08] said about the American president team [00:23:11] approach in the negotiation process like [00:23:13] the way the American president admire [00:23:16] dictator Putin and definitely want [00:23:19] Ukraine to make concessions but not [00:23:22] Russia. Do you think that's a temporary [00:23:24] approach in all this negotiation [00:23:26] process? [00:23:28] >> I don't think he admires Putin. I mean I [00:23:30] think he tries every tool in his toolbox [00:23:34] which he has. One of them is flattery. I [00:23:36] mean he's trying to kind of uh make [00:23:39] Russians to come behind the tables. I [00:23:42] mean using every mean he has I mean from [00:23:44] one side threat of sanctions from the [00:23:46] other side flattery trying everything. [00:23:48] And this is this seems to be kind of [00:23:50] Trump's way of doing things. He tries [00:23:53] everything conventional and [00:23:54] unconventional in order to achieve his [00:23:57] ends and his ends is ending the war. [00:24:00] Unfortunately, of course, putting uh [00:24:02] putting Ukraine in the position where [00:24:03] Ukraine finds it very difficult to [00:24:05] refuse concessions may be sometimes [00:24:08] feeling easier. And this is where it is [00:24:10] extremely important that the European [00:24:12] support for Ukraine remains at that [00:24:15] level that Ukraine can make all these [00:24:17] decisions for itself without feeling [00:24:19] that they had no other choice. And this [00:24:21] is what we are adamant about. And here I [00:24:24] have to say Europe is standing quite [00:24:26] united and is trying to help any way. [00:24:29] what it can. [00:24:31] >> And finally, Madame President, if Russia [00:24:33] loses in Ukraine, and I hope it will [00:24:36] someday, and as su as sooner as better, [00:24:40] will it become less dangerous or more um [00:24:43] how do you say it, revest? [00:24:47] Well, my understanding is that um [00:24:49] Ukrainians themselves would consider it [00:24:52] a victory in this context if without [00:24:57] too strong, too big concessions in [00:25:00] accepting some occupied territories [00:25:04] and also when Ukrainians are ready able [00:25:07] to keep their big army constantly [00:25:09] mobilized, ready to I mean bounce back [00:25:12] as soon as Russia is not respecting the [00:25:16] uh forces of a next peace deal making [00:25:19] this I mean kind of future kind of safer [00:25:22] than it was post Buddhapest or post [00:25:24] Munich. If that were to happen then with [00:25:28] such a strong Ukraine army there where [00:25:31] it would be I believe the whole Europe [00:25:34] will be safe. [clears throat] So [00:25:35] basically this is in the European [00:25:37] interest as well that this peace [00:25:39] agreement will seem just also for [00:25:43] Ukrainian people who would be ready to [00:25:45] defend that peace agreement. I mean [00:25:47] defend this worldview which the current [00:25:49] Ukrainian administration has taken in [00:25:52] the next and thereafter elections all [00:25:54] the time and remain strong on their [00:25:57] course towards European Union and [00:25:59] eventually I believe also NATO because [00:26:01] Ukraine after all has now the most [00:26:04] capable army in the whole Europe most [00:26:06] most practiced unfortunately. So if [00:26:09] these conditions are met, I re I really [00:26:12] don't see that Russia would ever be able [00:26:14] to discount uh what is Ukraine uh when [00:26:18] it is thinking of its next plans. It [00:26:20] will not be so simple that okay, Ukraine [00:26:22] was too big. Let's try I don't know. [00:26:26] >> Yeah, Madame President, as as in [00:26:27] Ukraine, we're joking that it's not [00:26:29] Ukraine have to join NATO. It's Ukraine [00:26:31] have to join Ukraine. NATO have to join [00:26:34] uh uh Ukraine. Well, um, yeah, uh, [00:26:37] probably there will be a referendum. I [00:26:39] had the off the record interview with [00:26:41] the Ukrainian president and now he's, [00:26:43] uh, telling that publicly. That could be [00:26:46] a case at this stage of peace, uh, [00:26:49] talks. Probably there will be a national [00:26:51] referendum in Ukraine. We'll see. Madame [00:26:54] President, I'm so [00:26:56] >> I mean, if I may add, I mean, I haven't [00:26:59] seen anything which would show me that I [00:27:02] mean, Russians are going to also to [00:27:03] agree to this. I mean meticulously [00:27:05] worked out peace agreement in seven [00:27:08] documents and sequencing paper by uh [00:27:10] Ukrainians and Americans. I mean I [00:27:13] haven't seen any reason to believe that [00:27:15] I mean Putin will be convinced to join [00:27:17] join in. So uh I'm not too hopeful about [00:27:20] I mean even being able to have the [00:27:22] referendum soon unfortunately. [00:27:25] >> So it doesn't change anything right [00:27:26] whether we're going to have it or not. [00:27:29] >> I mean yeah I mean it I don't see what's [00:27:31] the point. I mean of course you need to [00:27:32] have it to demonstrate that Ukrainian [00:27:34] people are not I mean uh withholding the [00:27:37] peace agreement that it is Russia and [00:27:39] Putin. But indeed my my biggest question [00:27:42] is and remains how strong sanctions can [00:27:45] Russia still take and should we be I [00:27:46] mean much quicker uh in in doing more [00:27:49] even secondary sanctions in order to [00:27:51] really make Russians to realize they [00:27:53] have to come behind the table. Today [00:27:54] this has not happened. [00:27:57] Well, today's but the European Union is [00:27:59] preparing another uh sanctions package [00:28:01] and uh they're going to be they are [00:28:04] promising it's going to be more united [00:28:05] with the night with the United States as [00:28:07] before. Maybe I don't know maybe that's [00:28:10] going to help. [00:28:11] >> I I think I think Graham sanctions uh [00:28:13] from US Congress would be great tool [00:28:15] also to push Russians. [00:28:17] >> Absolutely. Absolutely true. Madame [00:28:20] President, thank you so much for your [00:28:22] time, for your insights, and just for [00:28:26] joining and speaking to the Ukrainian [00:28:28] and Western audience. Thank you so much.