📄 Extracted Text (19,838 words)
[00:00:00] [Music]
[00:00:06] Hey, I'm Tucker Carlson. Last week,
[00:00:08] within just really minutes after Charlie
[00:00:11] Kirk was shot at that event in Utah, a
[00:00:14] kind of proxy war broke out over his
[00:00:16] memory. Who gets to own it? Who gets to
[00:00:19] use it? While the rest of us were still
[00:00:20] reeling in shock trying to figure out
[00:00:22] what happened, a ton of people appeared
[00:00:24] online, not just in this country, to
[00:00:26] tell you exactly what happened, exactly
[00:00:29] what it meant, and exactly what we
[00:00:31] should do next.
[00:00:33] And you can see why. With this level of
[00:00:36] emotion, rage, and grief in the air,
[00:00:40] it's pretty wise to leverage that much
[00:00:42] energy. It's almost like nuclear power.
[00:00:44] It can be used for good or bad. And a
[00:00:46] lot of people wanted to use it. There's
[00:00:48] no question about that. So they begin
[00:00:49] telling you Charlie died for this. He
[00:00:52] lived for this and he died for that. So
[00:00:55] the crazier reaches of the left it was
[00:00:58] Charlie was a Nazi and the lesson is
[00:01:00] Nazis get killed. It makes sense. He was
[00:01:02] a bad guy who got what he deserved. And
[00:01:03] a lot of them said that out out loud.
[00:01:05] Certain parts of the right immediately
[00:01:07] told you that actually this was about
[00:01:09] something completely different. You know
[00:01:10] Charlie died for Israel. Many began to
[00:01:12] say the prime minister of Israel said
[00:01:14] that and so did a lot of other people.
[00:01:16] Charlie was a defender of Israel, which
[00:01:17] he was, by the way, and therefore he
[00:01:20] died for that cause.
[00:01:23] But none of these explanations, all
[00:01:25] self- serving, are really satisfactory.
[00:01:26] They don't capture who Charlie Kirk was.
[00:01:28] And on some basic level, they're
[00:01:31] dishonest. Charlie was not a Nazi. He
[00:01:33] was not killed because he was a Nazi.
[00:01:35] Yes, he was a defender of Israel. He
[00:01:37] would didn't die for Israel, however.
[00:01:39] Why did he die? What was his life about?
[00:01:42] What was the sin, the core sin that
[00:01:45] Charlie Kirk committed against somebody
[00:01:47] power that got him killed in the end?
[00:01:50] And the answer is right in front of us.
[00:01:52] Certainly those of us who knew him.
[00:01:54] Charlie's life was defined by his
[00:01:56] Christian faith. Not his spirituality,
[00:01:59] but his belief in Jesus, his life as a
[00:02:01] Christian. And everything in his life
[00:02:03] flowed from those beliefs. Everything.
[00:02:05] Everything he did, said, and believed
[00:02:08] came from the fact that he was above all
[00:02:10] a Christian. And that is and was and in
[00:02:14] fact has always been deeply provocative
[00:02:17] and offensive to the rest of the world.
[00:02:20] And why is that? It's worth thinking
[00:02:22] about it for just a second. Christianity
[00:02:24] doesn't seem like the kind of religion
[00:02:26] that provoked people to anger and
[00:02:27] violence. In fact, it seems just the
[00:02:29] opposite. It's the world's most
[00:02:31] profoundly nonviolent religion. Maybe
[00:02:33] the world's only truly nonviolent
[00:02:35] religion. A religion based on a man who
[00:02:38] Christians believe was also God. who as
[00:02:40] he was being led away to be tortured to
[00:02:43] death on madeup charges scolded one of
[00:02:46] his disciples for fighting back. This is
[00:02:49] a religion committed to love above all
[00:02:52] and to living in peace and harmony
[00:02:54] truly. It's a universalist religion that
[00:02:56] believes that every person has a shot at
[00:02:59] heaven. It's not exclusionary at all.
[00:03:01] And so you would think it would make
[00:03:03] sense that if you're a government or if
[00:03:04] you're in power that you'd want a lot of
[00:03:06] Christians living in your country
[00:03:07] because they're not going to cause
[00:03:09] massive problems. Not a lot of sincere
[00:03:11] Christians are fermenting insurrection
[00:03:13] at any given moment. Pretty much none
[00:03:16] most of the time. They're tidy. They get
[00:03:19] married. They love their children. They
[00:03:22] pay their taxes. They're commanded to
[00:03:23] pay their taxes. So why wouldn't you
[00:03:25] want a nation full of Christians? Why
[00:03:26] wouldn't you encourage this religious
[00:03:28] belief even if it wasn't yours? Why
[00:03:30] would you hate it? Well, there are a
[00:03:32] couple of reasons. There are a couple of
[00:03:34] things about Christianity, and these
[00:03:35] were evident throughout Charlie's public
[00:03:37] life that are deeply provocative to the
[00:03:40] people in power. And the first is the
[00:03:43] insistence that Christianity comes with
[00:03:46] inherently that you are not God. You are
[00:03:49] not God and neither are your leaders.
[00:03:51] God is God and all of us stand before
[00:03:54] him in the end to be judged and all of
[00:03:56] us will be found lacking. Christians
[00:03:58] believe the only way to heaven is
[00:03:59] through Jesus. That's the only way.
[00:04:02] But all of us, whether we believe in
[00:04:04] Jesus or not, are fallen. We are
[00:04:06] sinners. We are less than we ought to
[00:04:08] be. We are not God's. And neither are
[00:04:10] the people who lead us. And this has a
[00:04:13] lot of implications. The first being if
[00:04:15] you're not God, you don't get to do
[00:04:17] whatever you want. There are limits.
[00:04:19] There are rules that you didn't write
[00:04:20] that you have to abide by. That's not a
[00:04:24] judgment. That's a statement of fact.
[00:04:26] Some call it natural law. It's been the
[00:04:28] basis of every functioning society since
[00:04:30] the beginning of time. But the basis of
[00:04:32] our society is the Christian
[00:04:34] understanding of justice which flows
[00:04:37] from that belief. You are not God. God
[00:04:41] is. He writes the most basic rules. You
[00:04:43] abide by them. Period. That's the basis
[00:04:45] of our law. That's the basis of Western
[00:04:47] law. And that is a threat, a challenge
[00:04:50] to people who would ignore the limits on
[00:04:53] their behavior. Very much including our
[00:04:55] leaders and very much including the most
[00:04:56] powerful people in our society whether
[00:04:58] they're elected or not. Nobody wants to
[00:05:00] be told you're not allowed to do
[00:05:02] something. And Christianity inherently
[00:05:05] tells people that. Doesn't judge them.
[00:05:07] It just states it clearly. No, you do
[00:05:10] not have the power to kill except
[00:05:11] possibly in self-defense. But you can't
[00:05:13] just go killing people. And you can't go
[00:05:16] killing people because, and this is the
[00:05:18] second thing about Christianity that
[00:05:19] tends to set the teeth of the powerful
[00:05:22] on edge. Christianity insists that every
[00:05:26] human being is created by God. Every
[00:05:29] single one. And that means that every
[00:05:31] human being has a soul, a distinct
[00:05:34] unique soul created by God. It is once
[00:05:38] again the only true universalist faith
[00:05:42] there is. And the New Testament is the
[00:05:44] story of this an underread collection of
[00:05:47] books. That is not the story of the Old
[00:05:49] Testament is very much the story of the
[00:05:51] New Testament. In the New Testament, all
[00:05:53] people are God's chosen. Every single
[00:05:55] one. And the story itself makes that
[00:05:58] point. The founder of most Christian
[00:06:02] churches in the early Near East was a
[00:06:05] former Pharisee, a Jew, who was in
[00:06:08] charge of killing Christians until he
[00:06:10] famously met Jesus on the road to
[00:06:11] Damascus. His name was Saul. He became
[00:06:13] Paul. And he is the most prolific author
[00:06:16] in the New Testament and the basis of a
[00:06:17] lot of Christian theology. And his life
[00:06:20] tells the story. People can change. No
[00:06:23] matter what they look like, no matter
[00:06:25] what they previously believe, no matter
[00:06:26] where they're from, no matter what
[00:06:28] language they speak, because they are
[00:06:30] created by God. And every person, every
[00:06:33] single person, whether you like them or
[00:06:34] their relatives or the way they look or
[00:06:36] not, has that chance because all were
[00:06:39] created by God and all were loved by
[00:06:41] God. That is the basis of Christianity.
[00:06:44] That's the Christian story. And so a
[00:06:46] sincere Christian proceeds with that
[00:06:48] belief. There is no tribalism in
[00:06:51] Christianity. There is no identity
[00:06:54] politics. It's the opposite. You may
[00:06:57] prefer to be with people who look like
[00:06:58] you. That's fine. But God doesn't prefer
[00:07:01] to be with people look like you. God
[00:07:03] prefers to be with all people because he
[00:07:05] created all people. He's the God of the
[00:07:08] universe, not just of the people you
[00:07:10] like. And that again has massive
[00:07:13] implications for the way that sincere
[00:07:15] Christians live and for the way that
[00:07:16] Charlie Kirk lived his life. And the
[00:07:19] first is if other people have souls, if
[00:07:23] they like you were created by God, then
[00:07:25] they have freedom of conscience.
[00:07:28] You can tell them what they ought to
[00:07:29] think, but you can't make them. You can
[00:07:32] tell them what they ought to say, but
[00:07:33] you can't force them. Christianity does
[00:07:36] not convert by the sword. It can't. It
[00:07:39] requires free will. And it requires free
[00:07:41] will because it respects the individual
[00:07:44] conscience emanating from the distinct
[00:07:46] soul of every human being. And that is
[00:07:50] why in the west which is based on
[00:07:52] Christianity, our civilization is a
[00:07:54] Christian civilization tattered though
[00:07:57] it currently is. Collective punishment
[00:08:00] hurting people for the sins of their
[00:08:03] relatives is unthinkable. It's a crime
[00:08:07] because each person will stand alone as
[00:08:10] he was made before God. And every person
[00:08:15] is equal before God fundamentally
[00:08:19] doesn't mean each person is equal in his
[00:08:21] ability. It doesn't mean each per person
[00:08:22] is equal in the choices he makes. Of
[00:08:24] course not. But it means that every
[00:08:26] person is a human being with a divine
[00:08:29] spark inside. That is the core
[00:08:31] assumption of Christianity. And it was
[00:08:34] obvious when you watch Charlie Kirk that
[00:08:36] he believed that. Charlie's been
[00:08:38] famously quoted for the last couple of
[00:08:40] days saying he abhores anti-semitism.
[00:08:42] That is absolutely right. And he did he
[00:08:43] said that in public and he said it very
[00:08:45] often in private. He meant it too. But
[00:08:47] he abhored racism and bigotry on the
[00:08:50] basis of genetics of all kinds because
[00:08:53] he was a Christian and he believed that
[00:08:56] God created each person. Now why is this
[00:08:59] a problem for temporal authorities? Why
[00:09:02] is it a problem for the people in power?
[00:09:04] Because once again it circumscribes what
[00:09:07] they can do. It sets a limit on their
[00:09:09] powers. If God created each person,
[00:09:12] including the infuriating, annoying,
[00:09:15] disastrously wrong person I'm talking
[00:09:17] to, then I can't force him to repeat my
[00:09:20] creed. I'm not in charge of his
[00:09:23] conscience. Only he is.
[00:09:26] And that is a limit. So when Charlie
[00:09:28] Kirk said, "I believe in free speech,"
[00:09:31] he didn't simply believe in free speech
[00:09:33] because it was in the Bill of Rights. He
[00:09:35] understood that it was in the Bill of
[00:09:36] Rights because it's in the New
[00:09:38] Testament. He understood that's a right
[00:09:40] that comes from God bestowed on all of
[00:09:42] us at birth. And he felt his job, his
[00:09:46] duty was not simply to protect it, but
[00:09:48] to live it, to show people what that
[00:09:51] looks like. And I just want to play of
[00:09:53] the many clips we could play of Charlie
[00:09:55] Kirk on college campus. He spent his
[00:09:56] whole life
[00:09:58] worn out most of the time. Uh, and as an
[00:10:00] older man, I often said to him, "How the
[00:10:01] hell do you get on plane after plane
[00:10:03] after plane?" But he felt an evangelical
[00:10:05] duty, small e evangelical duty to do it,
[00:10:08] to get out there and talk to people.
[00:10:10] Why? Not simply to build a coalition or
[00:10:12] get this or that person elected, but
[00:10:15] because he believed as a Christian that
[00:10:19] convincing people voluntarily with words
[00:10:23] in the beginning was the word and the
[00:10:25] word was with God and the word was God.
[00:10:28] So, the Gospel of John begins, "Words
[00:10:31] are the key to winning people's minds
[00:10:34] and their souls."
[00:10:36] And he really meant this. He wasn't just
[00:10:39] repeating the words. He meant it. And it
[00:10:42] was obvious in the way that he
[00:10:43] interacted with people who disagree with
[00:10:44] him and people who hated him. Here's one
[00:10:47] clip that tells part of the story.
[00:10:50] Would you want someone who is not
[00:10:52] necessarily stable or ready to bring a
[00:10:55] child into this world and provide that
[00:10:57] child the life it deserves? Would you
[00:10:59] want them to still bring that child into
[00:11:01] the world?
[00:11:01] >> Without a doubt, every every life has a
[00:11:04] moral obligation to be able to live.
[00:11:06] >> If I can't give that child the life it
[00:11:10] deserves, why am I bringing it to
[00:11:12] >> Got it. No, this is this will be my last
[00:11:15] question. I I want you to think about
[00:11:16] it. If a single mom has two
[00:11:18] two-year-olds, twins, and she wakes up
[00:11:21] one day and says, "I can't do it
[00:11:22] anymore. I can't give them the life they
[00:11:23] deserve."
[00:11:24] >> But that's just not the circumstance.
[00:11:25] >> Hold on. Should she be able to take out
[00:11:27] a shotgun and kill both those kids?
[00:11:28] >> No.
[00:11:29] >> Of course not. Because you think that
[00:11:30] would be objectionable. That's why I
[00:11:32] think it's objectionable to eliminate
[00:11:33] two babies that are 6 weeks old cuz
[00:11:35] they're morally the same thing. One just
[00:11:38] happens to be bigger. One just happens
[00:11:40] to be older. One just happens to be
[00:11:42] outside of the womb. They're both human
[00:11:44] beings. And you have something in you
[00:11:46] that says, "No way isn't it okay to kill
[00:11:47] a 2-year-old." That's called your soul
[00:11:49] talking.
[00:11:50] >> You have something in you that tells you
[00:11:53] the truth. You can call it instinct if
[00:11:55] you like. Charlie Kirk referred to it as
[00:11:57] the soul.
[00:11:59] But both mean. You have the spark of the
[00:12:03] divine, God's spark inside you, and it
[00:12:06] reacts. It hums. It vibrates like a
[00:12:07] tuning fork. And you know on a basic
[00:12:10] animal level, like your dog knows when
[00:12:12] something is wrong. You can feel it. And
[00:12:15] the whole purpose of modern society, it
[00:12:16] seems sometimes, is to get the rest of
[00:12:19] us to ignore what we know. That
[00:12:22] vibration inside us that tells us the
[00:12:24] truth always. It never lies to us.
[00:12:26] Charlie did not ignore that. And you'll
[00:12:28] notice that in the end, he appealed to
[00:12:30] it with that young woman. He didn't
[00:12:31] scream, "You're a murderer" in his face,
[00:12:33] though he considered abortion murder,
[00:12:35] which it is. He felt that deeply. This
[00:12:38] wasn't a performance. He wasn't, you
[00:12:39] know, another nonprofit phony at DC
[00:12:42] figning outrage about something. He
[00:12:44] really believed that taking innocent
[00:12:47] life was wrong. In the womb or in
[00:12:49] crowded cities, anywhere he thought it
[00:12:52] was wrong because his faith tells him
[00:12:53] it's wrong and because his conscience
[00:12:56] confirms that belief. And so does yours
[00:12:58] and so did hers. So did all of ours. We
[00:13:01] know when something is wrong. And the
[00:13:04] people above us shouted us, "No, really,
[00:13:06] there's an explanation for it." That's
[00:13:08] just your super ego barking at you. No,
[00:13:12] you know in your heart, deep inside what
[00:13:16] every person has known, and that is the
[00:13:18] murder of innocence is a crime. It's a
[00:13:20] moral crime. And that girl knew it. And
[00:13:23] in the end, that was Charlie's appeal.
[00:13:25] Listen to that divine spark inside you.
[00:13:29] Listen to your soul speak to you. Turn
[00:13:32] off the music. Get off the drugs. push
[00:13:35] the distractions, which it's hard to
[00:13:37] believe aren't actually designed to
[00:13:39] crowd out that humming inside us, and be
[00:13:42] still for a moment and accept what you
[00:13:44] already know, what you were born
[00:13:46] knowing. Listen to that. Only someone
[00:13:50] who appreciates the person he's speaking
[00:13:52] to as an actual human being could speak
[00:13:54] that way. Notice how rare that is. It's
[00:13:58] been noted in the past couple of days,
[00:14:00] Charlie was a free speech champion.
[00:14:01] Absolutely, he was. And I pray that
[00:14:03] that's his legacy. But I also think it's
[00:14:06] important to explain why that mattered
[00:14:07] to him. It was not abstract in any
[00:14:10] sense. It was central. It was the core.
[00:14:13] Because consider what it means if you
[00:14:15] don't respect free speech, which is
[00:14:18] another way of saying free conscience.
[00:14:19] The right of other people to make up
[00:14:21] their own minds about the basic
[00:14:23] questions of what what is right or wrong
[00:14:24] and to express their views on those
[00:14:26] issues. If you don't acknowledge the
[00:14:29] right of other people to do that, and if
[00:14:31] you take steps to prevent them from
[00:14:32] doing that, what are you really saying?
[00:14:35] You're really saying, "I don't think you
[00:14:36] have a soul. I think you're a meat
[00:14:38] puppet I can control. I think you're an
[00:14:40] animal, maybe suban animal. You're a
[00:14:42] slave. You're a person to whom I can
[00:14:44] dictate belief. I don't acknowledge that
[00:14:47] you have the right to come to your own
[00:14:49] conclusion is another way of saying I
[00:14:51] don't acknowledge that you're a human
[00:14:52] being." It's dark. There's nothing
[00:14:54] darker than that. And trust me, they
[00:14:57] believe it, the ones who've thought
[00:14:59] about it, and there are a lot of those.
[00:15:02] But for a lot of people, particularly
[00:15:04] those who are just repeating what they
[00:15:06] think they should say or responding to
[00:15:08] the momentary rage of the moment,
[00:15:12] they just throw stuff out. And we've got
[00:15:14] to hope that the attorney general of the
[00:15:16] United States, Pam Bondi, is in that
[00:15:17] category. She said this just yesterday.
[00:15:21] Watch.
[00:15:22] >> There's free speech and then there's
[00:15:23] hate speech. And there is no place,
[00:15:26] especially now, especially after what
[00:15:28] happened to Charlie in our society.
[00:15:32] >> There's free speech and then there's
[00:15:34] hate speech. This is the attorney
[00:15:35] general of the United States, the chief
[00:15:36] law enforcement officer of the United
[00:15:38] States telling you that there is this
[00:15:39] other category called hate speech. And
[00:15:41] of course, the implication is that's a
[00:15:43] crime.
[00:15:44] There's almost no sentence that Charlie
[00:15:47] Kirk, and I'm I'm not running the risk
[00:15:50] of appropriating his memory for my own
[00:15:52] ends by saying this, it's provable.
[00:15:55] There's no sentence that Charlie Kirk
[00:15:57] would have objected to more than that.
[00:15:59] And you've got to think the attorney
[00:16:00] general didn't think it through and was
[00:16:01] not attempting to desecrate the memory
[00:16:03] of the person she was purporting to
[00:16:05] celebrate. That she just threw that out
[00:16:07] there, that she hadn't thought about it.
[00:16:09] You hope that you hope that Charlie
[00:16:11] Kirk's death won't be used by a group we
[00:16:16] now call bad actors to create a society
[00:16:19] that was the opposite of the one he
[00:16:21] worked to build.
[00:16:23] You hope that you hope that a year from
[00:16:26] now the turmoil we're seeing in the
[00:16:29] aftermath of his murder won't be
[00:16:30] leveraged to bring hate speech laws to
[00:16:33] this country. And trust me, if it is, if
[00:16:36] that does happen, there is never a more
[00:16:39] justified moment for civil disobedience
[00:16:41] than that ever. And there never will be.
[00:16:42] Because if they can tell you what to
[00:16:44] say, they're telling you what to think.
[00:16:47] There is nothing they can't do to you
[00:16:49] because they don't consider you human.
[00:16:51] They don't believe you have a soul. A
[00:16:54] human being with a soul, a free man, has
[00:16:57] a right to say what he believes, not to
[00:16:59] hurt other people, but to express his
[00:17:02] views. And by the way, that thinking,
[00:17:04] and not to pile on the attorney general,
[00:17:05] who's a very nice person, but that
[00:17:08] thinking that she just articulated on
[00:17:10] camera there, is exactly
[00:17:14] what got us to a place where some huge
[00:17:16] and horrifying percentage of young
[00:17:18] people think it's okay to shoot people
[00:17:20] you disagree with, to kill Nazis for
[00:17:22] saying things they don't like. Why do
[00:17:24] they believe that? How did we get here?
[00:17:26] Is it the video games? Is it the SSRIs?
[00:17:28] Yeah, probably. But what it really is
[00:17:32] is 12 and then 16 years of
[00:17:34] indoctrination in our schools at the
[00:17:35] hands of people who tell them that, who
[00:17:37] say exactly what the attorney general
[00:17:39] just said. Well, there's free speech,
[00:17:40] which of course we all acknowledge is
[00:17:42] important. So, so important. But then
[00:17:43] there's this thing called hate speech.
[00:17:46] Hate speech, of course, is any speech
[00:17:47] that the people in power hate. But they
[00:17:49] don't define it that way. They define it
[00:17:51] as speech that hurts people. Speech that
[00:17:53] is tantamount to violence. And we punish
[00:17:55] violence, don't we? Of course we do.
[00:17:58] They've been taught that every year of
[00:18:01] their lives and so naturally most of
[00:18:04] them believe it. When Charlie Kirk is
[00:18:06] shot in the throat with a 306 on camera,
[00:18:09] I doubt very many young Americans want
[00:18:12] to see something like that or actually
[00:18:13] applaud the death of a man, a father, a
[00:18:16] husband. But they've been told for their
[00:18:18] entire lives in schools exactly what Pam
[00:18:22] Bondi just told them. Well, there's free
[00:18:24] speech, but then there's also hate
[00:18:25] speech. and woe to those who engage in
[00:18:26] it because it's a crime. That's a lie.
[00:18:30] And it's a lie that denies the humanity
[00:18:32] of the people you're telling it about.
[00:18:35] And so any attempt to impose hate speech
[00:18:38] laws in this country, and trust me,
[00:18:40] there are a lot of people who would like
[00:18:41] them. There are a lot of people who'd
[00:18:42] like to codify their own beliefs by
[00:18:45] punishing those under the US code who
[00:18:47] disagree with their beliefs. Any attempt
[00:18:50] to do that is a denial of the humanity
[00:18:53] of American citizens and cannot be
[00:18:56] allowed under any circumstances. That's
[00:18:58] got to be the red line because again,
[00:19:00] when they can do that, what can't they
[00:19:02] do? And this is something, by the way,
[00:19:04] that Charlie thought about a lot and
[00:19:06] that I had occasion to talk to him about
[00:19:09] a lot. And I really don't want to make
[00:19:11] any of this about me because it has
[00:19:13] nothing to do with me. But I did have
[00:19:15] reason to have these conversations with
[00:19:17] Charlie a lot. many many times over the
[00:19:20] past three or four months. And this
[00:19:23] began um at an event that he held in
[00:19:26] Florida in July, the TPUSA MFEST event,
[00:19:29] Turning Point event. I often go, I
[00:19:31] always have the best time. I always see
[00:19:33] Charlie ahead of time. We have a cup of
[00:19:34] coffee in a hotel room, talk about
[00:19:36] what's going on. In addition to being,
[00:19:38] of course, a conservative advocate, he
[00:19:40] was also a conservative organizer and a
[00:19:41] coalition builder, and he was very
[00:19:43] involved in politics in a way that I'm
[00:19:44] not. So it was interesting as hell, but
[00:19:46] it was also a way to learn what young
[00:19:48] people are thinking about, talking about
[00:19:50] because he was on college campuses all
[00:19:51] the time and what is the state of a
[00:19:54] couple of big debates that are happening
[00:19:55] within the Republican coalition
[00:19:57] particularly around foreign policy and
[00:19:59] Charlie's views on foreign policy which
[00:20:01] I think are fairly wellnown now. A lot
[00:20:03] of people lying about them um were
[00:20:05] evolving uh but had really evolved um
[00:20:10] and who knows why he reached the
[00:20:12] conclusions he did. I think his
[00:20:13] Christian faith informed them mostly was
[00:20:16] also the experience of talking to young
[00:20:17] people and his views were very much like
[00:20:19] theirs. He believed that the war on
[00:20:21] terror had been a net loss for the
[00:20:23] United States and it caused incalcuable
[00:20:24] damage not just economic and physical
[00:20:27] damage but spiritual damage to the
[00:20:28] United States. It was it was bad. We got
[00:20:29] nothing out of it. We were only hurt and
[00:20:32] he didn't want to see that again. And he
[00:20:33] felt very strongly about that. And of
[00:20:36] course I agreed. Uh and so before that
[00:20:40] speech that I gave in July, we had a
[00:20:43] conversation about this backstage right
[00:20:46] before I went on and I was fulminating
[00:20:48] and getting all red in the face like I
[00:20:50] often do to my shame and I was mad
[00:20:52] thinking about this and thinking about
[00:20:55] uh the effort by the neocons in the
[00:20:57] United States to draw us in to another
[00:21:00] forever war with Iran. It's not a
[00:21:02] defense of Iran, of course. It's merely
[00:21:04] an acknowledgement that we've done this
[00:21:05] before. Uh this happened in Iraq which
[00:21:08] uh you know we we entered into uh at the
[00:21:11] behest of those same foreign policy
[00:21:13] strategists. Um and and it didn't work.
[00:21:17] And so I was going on at some length
[00:21:19] backstage with Charlie and I said uh you
[00:21:23] know probably not going to talk about
[00:21:24] that. I'm not going to torture you. I
[00:21:26] know your donors hate this when I say
[00:21:27] that. Um, and also Epstein was in the
[00:21:30] news and it was clear to me that, you
[00:21:33] know, Epstein's probably not like a MSAD
[00:21:35] agent or something, but Epstein clearly
[00:21:37] had contact with Israeli intelligence
[00:21:39] and American intelligence and French
[00:21:41] intelligence, but the only one you're
[00:21:42] not allowed to talk about is Israeli
[00:21:43] intelligence. But it's it seemed true to
[00:21:45] me and I had done uh some work on that
[00:21:47] and I knew a bunch of people pretty
[00:21:49] close to that story. So So I thought
[00:21:51] that and I said that to Charlie and I
[00:21:53] said, "But I'm not going to say that
[00:21:54] because I don't want to make your donors
[00:21:55] mad. I know. It's just going to be like
[00:21:56] an endless
[00:21:58] flurry of texts telling you to stop or
[00:22:00] you're going to lose a bunch of funding.
[00:22:03] And he looked at me, I'll never forget
[00:22:05] it. And said, "Go all the way. Do it. Go
[00:22:08] all the way." I said, "Man, I you know,
[00:22:10] a lot of things I can talk about. I
[00:22:12] don't need to talk about that." And he
[00:22:13] said, "Do it." So, I did it. By the way,
[00:22:16] I think that that conversation he had a
[00:22:18] mic on and so did I. Probably exists
[00:22:20] somewhere on somebody's server, but
[00:22:21] that's I think a faithful rendition of
[00:22:23] what he said. Um, and by the way, I'm
[00:22:25] not trying to blame him for my remarks.
[00:22:26] You can agree or disagree with those
[00:22:28] remarks, but I I'm saying this only
[00:22:30] because I was uh shocked and sickened by
[00:22:34] the reaction of the ghoulish and really
[00:22:37] repulsive reaction of the prime minister
[00:22:39] of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, to
[00:22:41] Charlie's death.
[00:22:43] basically made it all about him and all
[00:22:45] about his country immediately trying to
[00:22:49] take the energy, the sadness, the grief
[00:22:51] that people felt over Charlie's murder
[00:22:53] and redirected towards support for
[00:22:55] whatever project he's involved in. And
[00:22:58] by the way, Benjamin Netanyahu is not
[00:22:59] the same as the nation of Israel at all.
[00:23:02] Uh BB is despised by many people uh in
[00:23:05] Israel. And if you know people who live
[00:23:07] there, you know that that's true. Um
[00:23:08] there are huge divisions within the
[00:23:10] Israeli government. I mean, there are
[00:23:11] certain parts of the the intel world uh
[00:23:13] in Israel that do not support some
[00:23:15] things that Benjamin Netanyahu has done
[00:23:17] recently. So, it's not the same as
[00:23:19] attacking Israel, attacking BB. But I I
[00:23:21] don't think I've ever seen anything
[00:23:22] lower than his attempt to hijack
[00:23:26] Charlie's memory and use it for his own
[00:23:28] political ends, particularly because
[00:23:29] what he said was completely untrue.
[00:23:33] Charlie didn't hate Jews. He loved Jews.
[00:23:35] He had tons of friends who were Jews. He
[00:23:36] loved the state of Israel. He loved
[00:23:38] going there. He did not like BB
[00:23:39] Netanyahu. And he said that to me many
[00:23:40] times and he said it to people around
[00:23:42] him many times. He felt that BB
[00:23:45] Netanyahu was a very destructive force.
[00:23:48] He was appalled by what was happening in
[00:23:51] Gaza.
[00:23:52] He was above all resentful that he
[00:23:56] believed Netanyahu was using the United
[00:23:59] States to prosecute his wars for the
[00:24:01] benefit of his country and that it was
[00:24:03] shameful and embarrassing and bad for
[00:24:05] the United States. And he resented it.
[00:24:07] Didn't hate Netanyahu. He wasn't out
[00:24:09] there with a placard saying that, but he
[00:24:12] certainly expressed that to me and a lot
[00:24:14] of other people. And there's no question
[00:24:16] that BB's defenders uh on the internet
[00:24:19] will call me a liar or a kook. Uh but
[00:24:21] that's a fact and enough text messages
[00:24:23] exist that I think it can probably be
[00:24:26] verified in pretty short order. Not that
[00:24:27] it needs to be because that is true. Um
[00:24:30] shortly after that speech, there was a
[00:24:33] very intense attack on Charlie and to
[00:24:34] some extent on me. Not that I really
[00:24:36] noticed, but on him. I have no donors.
[00:24:38] He had $100 million worth of donors and
[00:24:40] so because he was involved in a
[00:24:42] different project from just yapping on
[00:24:43] the internet which is what I do for a
[00:24:44] living. Um he was dependent to a great
[00:24:46] extent on his donors of course it's a
[00:24:49] nonprofit and they went after him and
[00:24:51] tormented him. Not all of course many
[00:24:53] were supportive but uh the ones who were
[00:24:55] offended by my speech and there was a a
[00:24:57] small very intense group who were
[00:24:59] tormented Charlie Kirk until the day he
[00:25:01] died. two days before he died, he lost a
[00:25:04] $2 million dollar donation because he
[00:25:07] had publicly pledged to bring me to the
[00:25:09] next Turning Point conference in
[00:25:11] December. And he told me over the past
[00:25:13] couple of months he was losing a lot of
[00:25:15] donations over that pledge. They put out
[00:25:17] a flyer basically saying that I was
[00:25:19] going to be at this event giving a
[00:25:20] speech. And so he would text me and say,
[00:25:22] "Man, I'm really taking a lot of heat
[00:25:24] for this and people are really mad." The
[00:25:26] American Jewish Committee called in a
[00:25:29] statement Charlie Kirk an anti-semite
[00:25:32] and quote dangerous Charlie Kirk an
[00:25:34] anti-semite. Yeah. Um he was not an
[00:25:37] anti-semite. He was the opposite and he
[00:25:40] was not dangerous. He was a great lover
[00:25:43] of people and a purveyor of peace. He
[00:25:45] was the opposite and he was very stung
[00:25:47] by that. Those of us who've been called
[00:25:48] names for a long time are a little bit
[00:25:50] harder to offend. Charlie was deeply
[00:25:52] offended by that and expressed some of
[00:25:53] those feelings on Megan Kelly show and
[00:25:56] in other places. But that did not let
[00:25:59] up. The reason I'm telling the story is
[00:26:01] because he called me and then came to
[00:26:03] see me at my house about this topic and
[00:26:06] uh I said to him every single time,
[00:26:08] look, it's, you know, I've got my own
[00:26:10] way to communicate my views. This is
[00:26:12] actually not the most important issue to
[00:26:14] me. There are lots of things I can talk
[00:26:15] about. I don't need to come to turning
[00:26:17] point. I can take a year off, no
[00:26:18] problem. I hated seeing how much he was
[00:26:21] suffering, the hassle he was getting
[00:26:24] from people. Uh, and I was being
[00:26:26] attacked too, by the way. It was a huge
[00:26:28] effort. Uh, I wasn't fully aware of it
[00:26:31] actually because I don't go online that
[00:26:32] much, but there was a huge effort by
[00:26:34] people, some of whom I know and have
[00:26:35] helped. And like Seth Dylan of the
[00:26:37] Babylon B, for example, someone who had
[00:26:39] his own problems with free speech, who
[00:26:41] was famously canled. Um, and I I like
[00:26:44] Seth Dylan. I had him on a couple of
[00:26:45] times. I had dinner with him to show
[00:26:46] support. Seth Dylan was out there
[00:26:48] demanding that Charlie Kirk take me off
[00:26:51] the roster, pull me off stage because I
[00:26:53] had said things that BB didn't like or
[00:26:55] that he didn't like or whatever.
[00:26:57] Shocking that someone whose whole
[00:27:01] persona is wrapped up in the idea that
[00:27:03] we all get to speak and if you don't
[00:27:05] like it, make a more compelling case.
[00:27:08] that that person and many others like
[00:27:11] him were advocating for me getting
[00:27:14] pulled off the stage because they don't
[00:27:16] like what I'm saying.
[00:27:19] This is a trend and one that we should
[00:27:21] be really concerned about. It's not just
[00:27:22] about Israel, by the way, at all. The
[00:27:25] trend is really simple. People with
[00:27:27] power don't want to hear disagreement.
[00:27:29] They don't want to be challenged ever.
[00:27:30] That's why we have free speech to
[00:27:32] acknowledge that even those of us or
[00:27:35] people with less power still have a
[00:27:37] right to talk because they're human
[00:27:38] beings. You don't own them. So time
[00:27:42] after time, Charlie would call me or
[00:27:43] come to see me and let me know, wow, or
[00:27:46] show me text messages. These people are
[00:27:47] really mad that you're speaking. And I
[00:27:49] would always have the same thought, like
[00:27:50] I feel pretty moderate, actually. I've
[00:27:52] never been an Israel hater. Obviously,
[00:27:54] I'm not an anti-semite. I just don't
[00:27:56] want more wars. and I don't want a
[00:27:58] foreign country humiliating my country
[00:28:00] and telling us what our laws have to be.
[00:28:02] I mean, this seems like pretty basic
[00:28:03] America first stuff. And he would say,
[00:28:04] "I totally agree with you, but they want
[00:28:06] you off the stage." And I would always
[00:28:09] say, "No problem." And he would say,
[00:28:11] "No, it's important.
[00:28:13] It's a matter of principle. I want you
[00:28:16] to be there." Great.
[00:28:20] By the way, I'm not accusing anyone of
[00:28:23] being involved in that murder. I'm not
[00:28:24] trying to mutter darkly or imply
[00:28:27] anything. We don't there's a lot we
[00:28:29] don't know about who murdered Charlie
[00:28:30] and why. But I I don't know and I'm not
[00:28:32] going to pretend that I do. But I think
[00:28:34] it's important to say that out loud
[00:28:36] because it's a fact and there are many
[00:28:39] liars out there trying BB Netanyahu
[00:28:42] number one among them shamefully
[00:28:44] who are trying to distort the truth. A
[00:28:46] truth that I know and can prove. And the
[00:28:49] last thing I'll say about Charlie is
[00:28:51] that his views were changing on topics
[00:28:53] that had nothing to do with foreign
[00:28:54] policy. You know, the famous kind of red
[00:28:56] line, third rail, can't talk about it.
[00:28:59] But it's possible that the subject that
[00:29:02] makes people even matter in Washington,
[00:29:04] New York, and LA than having
[00:29:06] non-conventional foreign policy views is
[00:29:08] having non-conventional economic views.
[00:29:10] Man, they really don't like that at all.
[00:29:12] And Charlie's views on economics and on
[00:29:15] the way that wealth is distributed in
[00:29:16] the United States were changing fast.
[00:29:19] Really changing fast and and hardening.
[00:29:22] Not because he was a socialist. Hardly.
[00:29:24] He was about as much of a socialist as I
[00:29:25] am. Not at all. Um but because he lived
[00:29:29] here and he spent a lot of time with
[00:29:30] young people and he couldn't help but
[00:29:32] notice because he was an observant and
[00:29:34] honest person that they're not thriving
[00:29:35] at all and that the chances they'll have
[00:29:37] lives comparable to the ones they had
[00:29:39] growing up are very small. Most of them
[00:29:42] won't have houses. They won't own
[00:29:43] anything. They'll be in debt. And for
[00:29:46] that reason, they won't get married or
[00:29:47] have children. And so, the people who
[00:29:49] are born here won't continue their
[00:29:52] legacy in the United States. It's it's
[00:29:54] the end of our civilization.
[00:29:56] And the root of a lot of this is
[00:29:58] spiritual, but the root is also
[00:29:59] economic.
[00:30:01] And it raises a question, a basic
[00:30:03] question of fairness. And I tried to
[00:30:06] address this in the speech that I gave
[00:30:07] for Charlie in July. I don't think I did
[00:30:09] a very good job and it was
[00:30:10] misinterpreted but I invoked Bill Aman
[00:30:13] and the point I was making had nothing
[00:30:14] to do with Bill Aman being a criminal or
[00:30:16] even being an Epstein
[00:30:19] friend. I mean I I don't really know
[00:30:20] anything about that. I know much about
[00:30:22] I'm not accusing Bill Aman of a crime
[00:30:24] and I'm not accusing him of you know
[00:30:26] being a sex creep or massage agent or
[00:30:29] anything like that. I don't think that I
[00:30:31] don't know that for sure and I wasn't
[00:30:32] trying to say it. What I was trying to
[00:30:34] say is that Bill Aman is not creative,
[00:30:37] not particularly intelligent.
[00:30:40] Bill Aman is worth $7 billion. So you
[00:30:42] have to ask like how. And it seems to me
[00:30:47] that Bill Aman is rich for the same
[00:30:49] reasons that a lot of other people I
[00:30:50] know are rich because he's
[00:30:52] hyperaggressive
[00:30:53] and he's well-connected.
[00:30:56] And my only point was if you live in a
[00:30:58] society that awards the spoils to people
[00:31:00] on the basis of those two qualities like
[00:31:02] the most aggressive the best connected
[00:31:04] people get the richest that's a
[00:31:06] dysfunctional society.
[00:31:09] There should be a reward for creativity
[00:31:12] and decency and hard work,
[00:31:14] steadfastness, following the rules. Like
[00:31:17] you should have to add to the sum total
[00:31:19] of your society. You'd think it's not an
[00:31:22] argument against the free market. It's
[00:31:24] an argument against whatever we're
[00:31:25] living through right now. This is really
[00:31:26] dark and ugly. And if people like Bill
[00:31:29] Aman are getting the richest, what has
[00:31:30] Bill Aman done? Shorted the market or
[00:31:32] something? Talk down herbal life. I
[00:31:34] mean, I'm not even saying that should be
[00:31:35] illegal. All I'm saying is if that's one
[00:31:38] of the richest guys in your society,
[00:31:39] you've got a very sick society. I don't
[00:31:42] think Billman's like a drooling idiot or
[00:31:44] anything, but like when was the last
[00:31:45] time you heard Billman say something
[00:31:47] constructive or creative? Like never.
[00:31:50] So, it's just bad. And it's not just
[00:31:51] about Bill Aman, of course. I mean, he's
[00:31:53] just a minor player in the life of the
[00:31:55] world, but he's a kind of metaphor for
[00:31:57] how off track we've gone. And that
[00:32:00] doesn't seem like a socialist point.
[00:32:02] Once again, I'm hardly a socialist and
[00:32:03] neither was Charlie Kirk. That seems
[00:32:05] like a Christian point. Fairness is at
[00:32:07] the root of the Christian story. People
[00:32:11] will be judged not by who their parents
[00:32:13] were or by how they look, but on their
[00:32:16] hearts, on themselves, on choices that
[00:32:18] they made. That's fair. So again,
[00:32:22] fairness is essential to the gospel and
[00:32:24] it's essential to any working society.
[00:32:28] In a fair society or a society that its
[00:32:31] citizens believe is fair, people will
[00:32:33] comply voluntarily with the rules
[00:32:35] because they don't think the game is
[00:32:37] rigged. But in a society in which Bill
[00:32:40] Aman, Bill Aman
[00:32:42] makes $7 billion and like the smartest,
[00:32:46] hardest working, most interesting,
[00:32:47] creative young people, you know, can
[00:32:48] never own a home in a society like that,
[00:32:52] you're going to get Mum Donnie as mayor,
[00:32:54] you're going to get a lot of bad things
[00:32:55] because people will opt out of the
[00:32:57] society because they know it's not fair.
[00:33:00] It's rigged. That's the only point I was
[00:33:02] trying to make. And Charlie, not
[00:33:04] surprisingly, made it much more
[00:33:05] eloquently, I thought, in an amazing
[00:33:07] interview, the last interview I did with
[00:33:09] him, uh, late July of this year. Here's
[00:33:12] part of it.
[00:33:13] >> We know how to create wealth, but we
[00:33:15] don't know how to create it for the
[00:33:17] generation that needs it most. If you
[00:33:19] look at the economic conditions, you
[00:33:20] would think the other conditions
[00:33:22] surrounding it are like abject poverty.
[00:33:24] These are the problems that like third
[00:33:25] world nations have.
[00:33:26] >> I know
[00:33:27] >> our young people can't afford stuff and
[00:33:28] they have to finance their basic
[00:33:30] necessities. And yet we're the
[00:33:31] wealthiest nation in the history of the
[00:33:33] world on the planet. We have a $ 37
[00:33:35] trillion GDP. We have the greatest
[00:33:37] companies and we have all this stuff to
[00:33:39] brag about. And yet all of our problems
[00:33:42] would beg the question and it's like
[00:33:44] this inherent contradiction. We're super
[00:33:47] wealthy on one side, like a powerhouse
[00:33:48] juggernaut, and we are like an economic
[00:33:52] nightmare on the other side. How did
[00:33:54] that happen?
[00:33:56] So, if there is such a thing as the left
[00:33:59] in the United States, if it still
[00:34:01] exists, you would think a message like
[00:34:03] that would at least get a hearing, a
[00:34:06] respectful hearing.
[00:34:08] Like, hey, what about wages? What about
[00:34:11] the ability of young people to just buy
[00:34:12] a little house with a little yawn and
[00:34:14] sub lawn in some subdivision? Like, what
[00:34:16] isn't that kind of what they say they
[00:34:18] want? Empower, you know, the most
[00:34:20] vulnerable, the people who try hard and
[00:34:22] play by the rules.
[00:34:24] They called him a Nazi. They didn't care
[00:34:27] that Charlie Kirk in real life spent his
[00:34:29] trying time trying to stop war
[00:34:33] trying to, you know, figure out how
[00:34:35] young people could buy a little house
[00:34:37] somewhere.
[00:34:38] Aren't those like left-wing goals?
[00:34:42] No, they didn't care at all. And in
[00:34:44] fact, they hated that because they're
[00:34:46] for war. because they're for death,
[00:34:48] because they're for the inequality he
[00:34:50] described,
[00:34:52] because it leads to a volatile society
[00:34:54] that empowers them. Of course, they're
[00:34:57] not a check on power, the professional
[00:35:01] left, the trans community. They're the
[00:35:03] shock troops of power. Charlie Kirk was
[00:35:07] a check on power. Charlie Kirk, inspired
[00:35:10] by his Christian faith, stood up to
[00:35:12] people
[00:35:13] fearlessly to say what he thought was
[00:35:16] true.
[00:35:17] And for that, I will always love and
[00:35:20] admire him. I want to go down to someone
[00:35:23] else who loved and admired him and knew
[00:35:25] him well and played a pretty, I think,
[00:35:27] important role uh in the final months of
[00:35:30] his life, and that is my old friend,
[00:35:32] Megan Kelly. Megan, thanks so much for
[00:35:34] coming on.
[00:35:36] >> Oh, Tucker, thanks for having me. That
[00:35:38] was that was a barn burner, man. You hit
[00:35:40] on some really important big points.
[00:35:42] >> I don't even remember what I said, but I
[00:35:44] meant it. Um, so I just want to start.
[00:35:46] So you had this experience last week
[00:35:48] that I, you know, I've always prayed I
[00:35:50] never have. You were on live. You were
[00:35:53] live when the news came in that our
[00:35:57] friend had been shot in the throat and
[00:35:58] your reaction was captured for all time
[00:36:01] on camera. And I just want to start by
[00:36:03] playing it. I thought it was just an
[00:36:04] incredible moment that said so much
[00:36:06] about you and about him. So here it is.
[00:36:11] Oh well, looks like we don't have a
[00:36:12] shot. Well, in it you said the line that
[00:36:14] stuck out to me. Your first reaction was
[00:36:17] he was sent by God. That's the first
[00:36:20] thing you said. You'd not not heard this
[00:36:21] news before. Why was that your gut
[00:36:24] reaction to his shooting?
[00:36:27] >> Because I had spent so much time with
[00:36:29] him over the past few years just on the
[00:36:32] air. Tucker, you know, I I never went
[00:36:33] out to dinner with Charlie. I didn't
[00:36:34] know him quite like that, like a like a
[00:36:36] personal friend. But I'd had him on the
[00:36:39] show more than 15 times. I'd been on his
[00:36:42] show repeatedly. I'd been to multiple
[00:36:45] Turning Point events and, you know,
[00:36:46] talked with him backstage quite a bit.
[00:36:48] Just done a lot with him professionally,
[00:36:50] a lot. And I mean, I I I wonder if he's
[00:36:53] been on anybody's show as much as he was
[00:36:55] on on mine over the past couple of
[00:36:56] years. And I got to know his thoughts on
[00:37:00] virtually everything. And I saw what
[00:37:02] people are seeing now, how they were all
[00:37:05] infused with his Christian faith, that
[00:37:09] he was a truly happy warrior, that he
[00:37:12] gave almost everyone the benefit of the
[00:37:14] doubt. Yes.
[00:37:15] >> That he had a much more positive and
[00:37:17] optimistic outlook on humanity than I do
[00:37:21] >> and I think than you do. I mean, I think
[00:37:23] we're a couple of cynical mofos. And
[00:37:27] Charlie wasn't Charlie was he was like
[00:37:30] an angel. I This picture that the left
[00:37:34] is painting of him in the news is
[00:37:36] totally foreign to my understanding of
[00:37:39] Charlie or to anything I've known. And I
[00:37:41] watched Charlie on his show, too. I know
[00:37:44] I know the things they they say he said
[00:37:47] that were controversial. They just
[00:37:49] fundamentally choose to misunderstand
[00:37:51] and misinterpret him. I mean, he was you
[00:37:54] need look no further than Erica in order
[00:37:56] to see that he was real. Like her
[00:37:59] goodness, her love, their love story,
[00:38:02] her strength in the wake of his death.
[00:38:04] That's the woman he loved. And that's a
[00:38:06] woman who loved him. Why? Because he was
[00:38:09] some devil figure. The opposite. These
[00:38:12] two were as wholesome as you could find.
[00:38:15] And everything he said was from his love
[00:38:18] of humanity and his belief that they
[00:38:21] could do better. I mean, I much more
[00:38:23] like, no, they can't. Let's move on
[00:38:25] without them. Like, we've got to, you
[00:38:26] know, and Charlie, I mean, in all of
[00:38:30] these college campus exchanges, whenever
[00:38:32] talking about most people, he would feel
[00:38:35] like everyone was could be redeemed. And
[00:38:39] if he could just get to them, if he
[00:38:40] could just talk to them, if he could
[00:38:41] just buoy them up with hope, they would
[00:38:44] they would do better. they could see
[00:38:46] themselves as Charlie saw them, as God
[00:38:48] sees them. And I I just ran into that
[00:38:50] optimism and that positivity from
[00:38:52] Charlie so often that I really did see
[00:38:56] him as God's messenger, Tucker, as an
[00:38:58] angel sent to us. And it's like we
[00:39:02] didn't deserve him. I feel like he's
[00:39:05] gone now because we we didn't deserve
[00:39:07] him.
[00:39:08] >> Man, you were too deep for cable news.
[00:39:11] No wonder you left. That is just such a
[00:39:13] beautiful summation and so insightful.
[00:39:16] I'm not sucking up. I mean it. That's I
[00:39:18] wish wish I had said half of that uh in
[00:39:21] my open. So, but why is that so
[00:39:24] provocative? I've been thinking about
[00:39:25] this since he was murdered. Like what of
[00:39:28] all the people that we know in our
[00:39:30] business, you know, the kind of let me
[00:39:31] give you my opinion business. Um I think
[00:39:34] it's fair to say he was the kindest. I
[00:39:36] mean, for real and in private, too. He
[00:39:38] even people he was really mad at, he
[00:39:40] would always say, "Well,
[00:39:41] >> I you know, I understand where that
[00:39:42] person's coming from." It's like, "Wow,
[00:39:44] he his decency was a challenge to me who
[00:39:46] struggles to be that."
[00:39:48] >> Um, why why why was that so offensive to
[00:39:52] people?
[00:39:54] >> Because it was power. It's it's so much
[00:39:57] more powerful, frankly, than negativity.
[00:40:01] Negativity and anger. Yeah.
[00:40:03] >> It's infectious, you know. It's a
[00:40:05] contagion. It It's like a magnet for
[00:40:08] people whether they like him or not.
[00:40:11] They're drawn to him. And he was
[00:40:13] converting people. So, he was a huge
[00:40:16] threat. That's really like I've been
[00:40:19] asking myself this question a lot over
[00:40:21] the past week. You know, let's take the
[00:40:24] accused shooter in this case.
[00:40:26] >> Yes. And let's say, okay, this this was
[00:40:29] it was motivated exactly as the
[00:40:31] authorities say, and he was he thought
[00:40:33] Charlie is quote too hateful and this is
[00:40:35] a guy who's into furries and he's into
[00:40:37] and he's living with one and
[00:40:39] you know all the things. Why would
[00:40:41] Charlie have been targeted by this guy
[00:40:43] for that? Why would it be Charlie? You
[00:40:46] say all the same things. I say all the
[00:40:48] same things. Most of the people in our
[00:40:49] space and in conservative or independent
[00:40:52] media say those things. Why? Why
[00:40:54] Charlie? And sadly, I think it's this
[00:40:58] factor. It's this
[00:41:00] magnetism from him, this positivity,
[00:41:03] this aura like that, this angelike aura
[00:41:06] around him that was so incredibly
[00:41:08] threatening, way more threatening than
[00:41:10] the rest of us because it was powerful
[00:41:13] and it was winning people over. It was
[00:41:16] converting people at a rapid rate. And
[00:41:19] not just any people, but young people,
[00:41:21] you know, the the people who had never
[00:41:23] been converted before, the people for
[00:41:24] whom people who talk like you and talk
[00:41:26] like me had never even tried. They
[00:41:28] weren't even players on the field. It
[00:41:30] was they were seated in the whole
[00:41:31] battle. And he said, "No, no, no, no,
[00:41:34] no. We're not seating them. I'm going to
[00:41:35] start at 18 to speaking to them in a way
[00:41:38] that they can hear and understand me.
[00:41:39] And I'm going to practice it." You know,
[00:41:41] for the past 13 years, he practiced. He
[00:41:44] went out campus after campus. And in the
[00:41:46] beginning, he wasn't as good as he was
[00:41:48] in the end. He was good, but he wasn't
[00:41:49] as good. And so, it was a skill he
[00:41:51] developed over time that made him more
[00:41:53] and more threatening, more and more
[00:41:54] effective. And you look at the the
[00:41:57] numbers just in the presidential
[00:41:58] election. It's not an overstatement to
[00:42:00] say that Donald Trump has Charlie to
[00:42:02] thank for his election in November 2024,
[00:42:06] swinging the youth vote by nine points.
[00:42:09] >> Yeah,
[00:42:10] >> we've never seen anything like it in the
[00:42:11] past hundred years. That you don't swing
[00:42:14] the youth vote toward a Republican.
[00:42:17] nothing in modern presidential politics.
[00:42:19] So he was a really integral, hugely
[00:42:22] important player even though he was so
[00:42:25] understated and projected zero ego. So
[00:42:29] you didn't see him like that. He didn't
[00:42:30] have sort of the swagger of that in most
[00:42:33] of his public appearances.
[00:42:34] >> He was quick to subjugate himself to
[00:42:36] whomever he was talking to.
[00:42:38] >> But he was way more important than he
[00:42:41] ever let on. And I think that's why he
[00:42:44] was perceived as such a threat. That's
[00:42:46] why him saying the things others would
[00:42:48] say carried an extra layer of threat yet
[00:42:52] both to this shooter and to Charlie's
[00:42:54] many detractors. And I just want to add
[00:42:57] as a period to this as a footnote I
[00:42:59] guess to this Tucker. You have a lot of
[00:43:02] it too. And it is the reason why Charlie
[00:43:07] is not the only one who's been
[00:43:09] threatened or was threatened to cut ties
[00:43:11] with you or not platform you. I too have
[00:43:15] gotten that, especially since you've
[00:43:16] been more outspoken on Israel. And I
[00:43:20] couldn't care less the amount of
[00:43:22] pressure they put. I'm like, what what
[00:43:23] are you talking about?
[00:43:25] >> This is madness. Why would you want to
[00:43:26] silence such a powerful important voice
[00:43:29] just because you disagree with them on
[00:43:31] one subject? one on which we've all
[00:43:33] watched you sincerely evolve as you
[00:43:35] grapple with principles you've been
[00:43:37] espousing for years like America first
[00:43:41] like what's happening to Christians like
[00:43:43] what's best for us and our kids here
[00:43:45] what how do I keep them safe that's my
[00:43:47] number one priority and I've been just
[00:43:50] absolutely disgusted and recoiled from
[00:43:52] people who have tried to pressure me on
[00:43:54] it of course never happened but I know
[00:43:56] from speaking to Charlie he felt it too
[00:43:58] you've heard it from Charlie that he
[00:44:00] felt and and there is a layer here of
[00:44:03] nefarious pressure to have certain
[00:44:06] narratives go only one way.
[00:44:08] >> Yes.
[00:44:09] >> That must be called out and must be
[00:44:11] fought.
[00:44:12] >> Well, I I should have said in my open
[00:44:15] that when Charlie was denounced as
[00:44:16] anti-semitic and quote dangerous by the
[00:44:18] American Jewish Committee, you were too.
[00:44:21] That that that was a press. I don't know
[00:44:22] if you ever even seen it. And I just
[00:44:24] remember when I read that at the time
[00:44:25] thinking, okay, these are like two of
[00:44:27] the most pro-Israel basically pro-Israel
[00:44:30] people like on the internet. I don't. So
[00:44:33] I I maybe we should have this offline,
[00:44:35] but let's just have it now. I don't get
[00:44:37] that. Why would you attack? There are
[00:44:40] definitely people who hate Israel who
[00:44:42] are not anti-semites or people Israel
[00:44:44] who are anti-semites. There's a whole
[00:44:46] range. And then there are like people
[00:44:48] who have like, you know, religious
[00:44:49] reasons for wanting to blow up Israel.
[00:44:51] Those are all threats. Why would they be
[00:44:53] attacking you and Charlie? And honestly,
[00:44:56] I feel like me. I mean, what is that?
[00:44:58] Why attack people who are pretty
[00:45:01] reasonable, who don't want to get into a
[00:45:03] fight on the topic, who just want to
[00:45:04] like have their country thrive? Why
[00:45:07] denounce them as dangerous
[00:45:08] anti-semmites? What is that?
[00:45:11] >> And let me just underscore for your
[00:45:13] audience what I had said. I mean, the
[00:45:16] sum total of what I had said when they
[00:45:18] started coming for me just to show the
[00:45:20] absurdity of this. I had said on Piers
[00:45:22] Morgan that Israel was losing the PR
[00:45:25] war, that they had lost the Democrats
[00:45:27] and the independents and were starting
[00:45:28] to lose the Republican party in America
[00:45:30] and it was time to wrap it up, which was
[00:45:32] a a quote from Donald Trump who had said
[00:45:35] it a year earlier when he was still a
[00:45:36] candidate. Time to wrap it up. That's
[00:45:39] what I said about Israel. And then at
[00:45:41] Turning Point at the at the student
[00:45:42] action uh summit with Charlie, we talked
[00:45:45] all about Epstein in my appearance
[00:45:47] there. It was all about Pam Bondi,
[00:45:48] frankly. Right. and we talked about
[00:45:50] whether he might possibly be an asset
[00:45:52] for someone and I said he might be and
[00:45:54] Israel, yeah, would make sense to me.
[00:45:56] Didn't know, but that's one of the
[00:45:57] things we should consider and look at.
[00:46:00] And that will conclude the list of
[00:46:01] things I said about Israel that after 2
[00:46:04] years of going on the air and defending
[00:46:06] them every week turned some weird crowd
[00:46:11] into she's an anti-semite. So, I mean, f
[00:46:16] these people because it's a lie. It was
[00:46:18] even more of a lie about Charlie who had
[00:46:21] said even less than me. He had said
[00:46:22] nothing like absolutely nothing. And
[00:46:25] they and they use those terms about him
[00:46:27] because he was on the other side of me
[00:46:30] when we had that discussion and because
[00:46:32] he hosted you and because he had the
[00:46:34] nerve to invite Dave Smith in a in a
[00:46:36] debate because he allowed one side to be
[00:46:39] represented and he had the Israel side
[00:46:41] fully represented too. So, this was just
[00:46:43] such an unfair accusation and I don't
[00:46:45] know why um the you know these very
[00:46:48] ardent advocates don't accept friendship
[00:46:50] when you offer it when you when you've
[00:46:52] proven that you are genuinely a friend.
[00:46:54] I've said openly, Tucker, there's no I'm
[00:46:57] not I don't want to debate. I'm on their
[00:46:59] side. There's no reason to put somebody
[00:47:01] on this show so they can convince me
[00:47:02] that Israel is right. I'm on their side.
[00:47:03] I agree with that. But in response to
[00:47:06] those comments and then ultimately
[00:47:07] having Marjgery Taylor Green on where we
[00:47:10] we criticized Apac. I mean who who
[00:47:12] defends a lobbyist group. Um they
[00:47:14] treated me like I was Medie Hassan.
[00:47:17] >> Not everybody, you know, but like the
[00:47:19] loudest Israel defenders and the and to
[00:47:22] turn around and call Charlie Kirk an
[00:47:23] anti-semite is such a disgusting smear.
[00:47:26] Then you're right. He's young. You know,
[00:47:28] he he was young and wasn't used to being
[00:47:31] attacked like that by people who
[00:47:33] supported him and people whose donations
[00:47:36] are actually really important to the
[00:47:37] ongoing existence of his organization.
[00:47:39] And it took a lot for him to say no to
[00:47:41] them. And it took a lot for him to be
[00:47:42] honest about the fact that his opinions
[00:47:44] had evolved. And let's face it, Charlie
[00:47:47] was like an unofficial spokesperson for
[00:47:50] the youth of America, in particular,
[00:47:52] conservative youth. And I don't know if
[00:47:54] people have checked, but they no longer
[00:47:56] support Israel. And everybody under 30
[00:47:58] is against Israel. Charlie was 31.
[00:48:01] >> And so as a friend, he's he's saying to
[00:48:03] them as same way I as a friend saying, I
[00:48:05] am telling you, you you've lost Dems's
[00:48:08] independence and you're starting to lose
[00:48:10] Republicans. It you need to wrap it up.
[00:48:12] You've had a 2-year long leash. I know
[00:48:15] you want your hostages back, but it this
[00:48:18] cannot go on until you have every
[00:48:19] hostage back. just not going to you're
[00:48:21] going to lose every friend you have. And
[00:48:23] that's what he was saying because that's
[00:48:25] what he was hearing from his
[00:48:27] constituency.
[00:48:28] And so what he did to them was brave and
[00:48:30] noble to the donors who who were very
[00:48:33] very pro-Israel. It was brave and it was
[00:48:35] noble. He did not deserve to be smeared
[00:48:37] over it. And look, I I like you have
[00:48:40] zero belief that this had anything to do
[00:48:42] with his death. But it's part of the
[00:48:44] larger narrative that you're making that
[00:48:45] he was a truth teller, that he was a
[00:48:48] fearless truth teller, and that there
[00:48:49] were a lot of pockets when he turned to
[00:48:53] them and said those truths that grew
[00:48:55] extremely uncomfortable. And whether it
[00:48:58] was some too online,
[00:49:01] disgusting, messed up 22-year-old in
[00:49:04] Utah or, you know, somebody who couldn't
[00:49:07] stand his messaging that was very frank
[00:49:09] around race or around Islam, whatever.
[00:49:12] Take your pick.
[00:49:13] >> He He's He's said the hard pick hard
[00:49:15] truths on all of these things. I think a
[00:49:18] lot of people have to have a really ugly
[00:49:20] conversation with themselves now in the
[00:49:21] wake of his death about whether they
[00:49:23] added to the hate surrounding him.
[00:49:25] >> And for Benjamin Netanyahu really
[00:49:27] tormented Charlie, we talked about it
[00:49:29] many times. He tormented Charlie and his
[00:49:32] advocates tormented Charlie. For him to
[00:49:34] run around saying that Charlie died for
[00:49:35] Israel is just too much. It's just
[00:49:37] disgusting. And as his friend,
[00:49:38] >> I feel more statement was out
[00:49:41] >> of line. No, I agree with you. And I
[00:49:43] never talk about BB Netanyahu. I I don't
[00:49:45] really No,
[00:49:46] >> I don't think much about him. I don't I
[00:49:47] I just don't I I had the opportunity to
[00:49:49] interview him a couple months ago and I
[00:49:51] I declined. I'm just I'm just not No, I
[00:49:54] just don't want to. I didn't want to
[00:49:55] platform him. I didn't actually,
[00:49:56] frankly, want to do all the work that I
[00:49:58] would have to do to sufficiently
[00:49:59] interview him in a way that would be,
[00:50:01] you know, tough as I do when I have any
[00:50:04] foreign leader in my crosshairs. I just
[00:50:06] wasn't interested. I I whatever for him
[00:50:09] to do what he did was wrong. It was
[00:50:11] deeply it was a moral wrong to sit out
[00:50:14] there and read part of Charlie's letter
[00:50:16] and try to have the final say on
[00:50:17] Charlie's pronunciations about Israel
[00:50:20] and and he knew that they weren't the
[00:50:22] full story. And he's a foreign leader.
[00:50:24] He's not an American leader. So how dare
[00:50:25] he? You know, you at best you come out
[00:50:27] there, you say, "I'm so sorry, right,
[00:50:29] >> for this loss. My prayers to his
[00:50:31] family." That's it.
[00:50:33] >> He was out of line, Tucker. And I, as
[00:50:35] not even a Netanyahu critic, saw it very
[00:50:37] clearly and talked about it today on the
[00:50:38] show, too. Can I ask you about next
[00:50:40] steps? I'm always wary of people who
[00:50:42] want to I just want to ask you about two
[00:50:43] issues. Uh one are hate speech laws,
[00:50:46] which I'm paranoid about, but I think we
[00:50:48] should be. And two, um is the effort by
[00:50:52] one person in Congress, Marjorie Taylor
[00:50:54] Green, to get the federal government to
[00:50:56] ban sex changes for children, and she
[00:51:00] can't seem to get that done. So, are we
[00:51:01] going to get hate speech laws? Do you
[00:51:04] think Pam Bondi seems to suggest we are?
[00:51:06] and two, are we ever going to ban the
[00:51:09] mutilation of kids?
[00:51:12] >> So, on the hate speech uh comments, that
[00:51:15] was an absolutely ridiculous comment she
[00:51:17] made today. I mean, it was absolutely
[00:51:18] foolhardy. I There's just no way she
[00:51:20] doesn't know what she said is legally
[00:51:22] unsound. She's there's just no way she
[00:51:23] was attorney general of the state of
[00:51:24] Florida and became US attorney general
[00:51:26] and doesn't know that. So, it does worry
[00:51:28] me because does that mean she's actually
[00:51:31] pushing for a policy change? Because
[00:51:32] there's just no way she doesn't already
[00:51:34] know what she said is wrong. there's
[00:51:36] been reams of Supreme Court president on
[00:51:37] it and she knows that. So is this about
[00:51:40] policy change? She tried to wiggle off
[00:51:42] of her original point as the day went on
[00:51:44] as incoming came almost universally from
[00:51:47] the right that she had said something
[00:51:50] very very wrong constitutionally and
[00:51:52] vile a as a moral principle. We've been
[00:51:56] fighting against this for decades on the
[00:51:57] right. Like what what is she saying? She
[00:51:59] sounded like a Merrick Garland. She
[00:52:01] sounded like an attorney general Kla
[00:52:03] Harris would have put in place. And so
[00:52:05] she tried to pivot off of it as the day
[00:52:06] went on and tried to make it smaller
[00:52:09] into no. All I'm saying is violent
[00:52:11] threats, criminal threats are are going
[00:52:14] to be punished. Well, yes and no. It
[00:52:16] depends on the threat. There's actually
[00:52:17] only a sliver of threats that is
[00:52:19] actionable under the law. So you're
[00:52:21] getting closer, but you're not quite
[00:52:23] there. You're you're giving again still
[00:52:25] w too wide a birth to attacking free
[00:52:28] speech. Um but yeah, it is true that
[00:52:30] certain threats, true threats can be
[00:52:32] ruled unconstitutional. You could go
[00:52:33] after somebody. So, she does worry me
[00:52:35] >> and you know I I'm not Trump was asked
[00:52:38] about it and he kind of made a funny
[00:52:39] joke about it going after the ABC news
[00:52:42] interviewer who asked him the question.
[00:52:44] >> Um but I think Trump will see that
[00:52:46] there's so much resistance to this on
[00:52:47] the right that he won't let her do that.
[00:52:49] He won't let her push for it. He won't
[00:52:50] let the Republicans do it. I just have
[00:52:52] to think Trump reads his base better
[00:52:54] than she does.
[00:52:55] >> Yeah, I agree with that. And speaking of
[00:52:57] reading your base, and I've got to thank
[00:52:58] the president's for this. I don't know
[00:53:00] why Speaker Mike Johnson has held it up,
[00:53:03] but I mean, we don't let kids get
[00:53:05] tattoos or smoke cigarettes, but we do
[00:53:08] let ghoulish doctors who are getting
[00:53:11] money for doing it mutilate children.
[00:53:14] Like, why can't Marjgerie Taylor Green
[00:53:16] get a get a hearing on on this
[00:53:18] legislation? I don't understand.
[00:53:20] >> I don't know. I don't know the answer to
[00:53:22] that. I mean, like this they they chalk
[00:53:24] this up to, oh, it's a spending
[00:53:25] resolution. We're just going to
[00:53:26] continue, you know, the spending that's
[00:53:28] in place until, right? It's like okay
[00:53:30] you're funding mutilations of children
[00:53:32] and not just the mutilations that are
[00:53:33] done with surgeries you're funding with
[00:53:34] these you know puberty blockers into
[00:53:36] cross- sex hormones sterilization of
[00:53:38] minors who cannot possibly consent to
[00:53:40] that and not just sterilization but
[00:53:42] actually the end of all potential for
[00:53:43] sexual pleasure. How does a 12-year-old
[00:53:46] understand that he's sacrificing that
[00:53:48] with your weird experiments on him? It
[00:53:50] it is truly a moral scorge what we're
[00:53:52] doing to our children. And I don't
[00:53:54] actually I'm sorry to say I don't have a
[00:53:56] lot of faith that we're that's going to
[00:53:57] get a ban at the federal level which
[00:53:59] means it'll be left to the states which
[00:54:01] means if you live in a blue state it's
[00:54:03] it's go you know have at it go ahead and
[00:54:06] mutilate children and sterilize them and
[00:54:09] deprive them of sexual pleasure because
[00:54:11] it makes you feel good. It's not
[00:54:13] dissimilar to the left saying Trump
[00:54:15] shouldn't add additional law
[00:54:16] enforcement. they shouldn't accept
[00:54:18] additional law enforcement where he
[00:54:19] wants to send it because it's racist to
[00:54:21] let black pe people live. It's racist to
[00:54:24] let them live in peace, to not be
[00:54:26] carjacked in these inner cities which
[00:54:28] are predominantly African-American.
[00:54:30] That's what the left is telling us that
[00:54:31] it's racist for Trump to send those
[00:54:32] troops or or even volunteer. And they're
[00:54:35] saying the same thing. What's what's
[00:54:36] good for children, what's what's kind,
[00:54:39] you know, the honorable thing to do is
[00:54:42] to let deranged parents chop off
[00:54:44] children's healthy body parts and
[00:54:46] sterilize them because that's what
[00:54:48] that's what an evolved person would do.
[00:54:52] And so that like that's another thing
[00:54:53] that this angel sent to us would speak
[00:54:55] very frankly about and threaten all
[00:54:59] these people who have a constituency
[00:55:01] whether it's someone with a last name
[00:55:03] Pritsker who actually has money invested
[00:55:05] in the transing of children that
[00:55:07] governor's cousin is one of the big
[00:55:09] funders of all these school pushes on
[00:55:12] the trans issue
[00:55:13] >> or somebody who just gets a Jones out of
[00:55:16] saying they're you know going to open
[00:55:18] the prisons and let black people not get
[00:55:21] arrested for the crime. crimes because
[00:55:23] they just think that's beneficial, I
[00:55:24] guess, somehow to other black people who
[00:55:26] are usually their victims, never mind
[00:55:28] the race of the victim. It's not
[00:55:29] beneficial to any of us. In any event, I
[00:55:32] don't have hope on that front. We're
[00:55:33] going to keep fighting, but if they
[00:55:34] don't ban it at the federal level, which
[00:55:36] I don't think they're going to, um,
[00:55:38] we're never going to get all 50 states
[00:55:39] to ban it. I think it'd be worth reading
[00:55:42] a daily roll call of the people standing
[00:55:44] in the way of that because that that
[00:55:45] that's the kind of crime that historians
[00:55:47] will reel in and horror uh that we
[00:55:50] allowed. I I think your remarks about
[00:55:53] Charlie at the beginning were like some
[00:55:54] of the wisest I've ever heard and um I'm
[00:55:57] actually going to look at the tape
[00:55:58] because I was so impressed by what you
[00:55:59] said uh and moved by it. So Kelly, thank
[00:56:01] you for taking time late at night to do
[00:56:03] this. I appreciate it.
[00:56:05] >> Great to be with you as always.
[00:56:07] >> Thank you.
[00:56:10] All right. Well, we have uh someone
[00:56:14] joining us now who are just really
[00:56:15] really grateful to have um someone who
[00:56:18] has been famous for decades uh for a
[00:56:22] different skill and in the last 10 years
[00:56:25] has really emerged as a consistent voice
[00:56:27] of wisdom um online and never
[00:56:30] interviewed him before but really happy
[00:56:32] to I don't think uh Scott Adams joins us
[00:56:35] now. Scott, thanks very much for doing
[00:56:37] this. Thanks for having me, Tucker.
[00:56:39] Yeah, we we we talked once before
[00:56:42] quite a few years ago
[00:56:44] >> and it was on Fox News and I've just
[00:56:46] erased that whole part of my brain. It's
[00:56:48] like CTE or something. I can't really
[00:56:50] remember what I did there. I think I'm
[00:56:53] ashamed of some of it. Um but anyway, um
[00:56:57] tell us what you think
[00:57:00] the lesson of Charlie Kirk's life and
[00:57:02] death uh are like. What what strikes you
[00:57:05] immediately? Well, you know, one of the
[00:57:08] big questions is how did somebody get to
[00:57:11] that place where it seemed perfectly
[00:57:13] reasonable for them to get a gun and and
[00:57:15] shoot a living human being?
[00:57:17] >> Yes.
[00:57:17] >> And um some people know in your audience
[00:57:20] that I'm also a hypnotist. I'm a trained
[00:57:23] hypnotist. And so I tend to look at
[00:57:25] these situations through that filter.
[00:57:28] And through that filter, you can see a
[00:57:30] really clear cause and effect. You know,
[00:57:32] starting around, let's say 2016, there
[00:57:35] was wallto-wall Hitler, Hitler, Nazis,
[00:57:38] 24 hours. Before that, there had been
[00:57:41] other Republicans who had been accused
[00:57:44] of being Hitler. But I think that
[00:57:46] everybody treated it like hyperbole, you
[00:57:48] know, oh, it's just, you know, it's a
[00:57:50] it's a political insult and it's the
[00:57:52] most common one, so you don't take it
[00:57:54] too seriously.
[00:57:55] >> Yes. Yes. But imagine being a a young
[00:57:57] kid and growing up when the the news the
[00:58:01] people in nice clothing would go on TV
[00:58:04] and they would say in all seriousness I
[00:58:06] you know he's basically Hitler. The
[00:58:08] Nazis are coming and you would you would
[00:58:11] create a mass hysteria. Now a mass
[00:58:14] hysteria would be worse than TDS or
[00:58:17] Trump derangement syndrome because that
[00:58:19] would be sort of what happens to an
[00:58:21] individual you know that could have TDS.
[00:58:24] But if you have a lot of people who have
[00:58:25] TDS and they start talking to each
[00:58:28] other, pretty soon you've got a mass
[00:58:30] hysteria. And the mass hysteria uh
[00:58:34] created this what I call a Hitlerian
[00:58:36] bubble. Meaning that a lot of people are
[00:58:39] living in what they think is a reality
[00:58:42] that is just completely Hitlerized. They
[00:58:45] see Hitler everywhere and they see it in
[00:58:47] Trump. They see it in his lieutenants.
[00:58:50] And this is different. So this is not
[00:58:52] like what we've seen before. All it
[00:58:55] takes to completely brainwash somebody
[00:58:58] to believe ridiculous things, even
[00:59:01] things that their observations would
[00:59:03] should tell them are not true. All you
[00:59:06] need is people in good suits who whose
[00:59:09] job makes them seem credible to say day
[00:59:13] after day, it's the repetition that
[00:59:15] matters, Hitler. Hitler, Hitler. and you
[00:59:18] convince people that they're living in a
[00:59:19] hellscape and they better do something
[00:59:22] about it. So, so the main thing I saw
[00:59:24] was that
[00:59:26] um and
[00:59:28] you know what once the bubble is formed
[00:59:31] um it's hard to get out. You mean you
[00:59:34] can't talk people out of it. There's no
[00:59:35] amount of information that'll change
[00:59:37] their mind. Cognitive dissonance will
[00:59:39] kick in if you if you show them a
[00:59:41] counter example. And the weird thing
[00:59:44] about uh Charlie, who I'd never met, by
[00:59:46] the way, I uh I didn't have the
[00:59:49] pleasure. Uh the weird thing is that
[00:59:51] when I started hearing all the
[00:59:52] accusations, and there were a lot of
[00:59:54] them, I said to myself, well, I bet some
[00:59:57] of these might be a little bit true. So,
[00:59:59] I started to look for the original
[01:00:01] quotes, etc. None of them are true. And
[01:00:05] there were a lot of them. They were all
[01:00:07] either a madeup quote or a quote and a
[01:00:11] context and nothing else. And when you
[01:00:14] hear people talking about it, especially
[01:00:16] the young people, they'll say things
[01:00:18] like, "He was a bad hater person,
[01:00:22] but there's no example." So that that's
[01:00:25] sort of the the sign that it's, you
[01:00:27] know, a mass hysteria because they can't
[01:00:29] give reasons and they don't seem too
[01:00:32] interested in the reasons. They're just
[01:00:33] sure that something has to be done. Now
[01:00:35] on top of that for the young people
[01:00:37] there's probably also an economic
[01:00:38] pressure. You know that they might feel
[01:00:40] that life doesn't have a positive path.
[01:00:43] So that that might be playing into this
[01:00:45] a little bit as well. Um but I do wonder
[01:00:49] what will happen and I predict that
[01:00:51] there's going to be another big bubble
[01:00:53] of psychological distress when the
[01:00:57] people who have said such bad things
[01:00:59] about him in public realize that none of
[01:01:02] it was true. because over time it looks
[01:01:05] like he's going to be talked about with
[01:01:06] so much that we'll, you know, we'll
[01:01:08] finally have a complete body of uh
[01:01:11] information about him so we can
[01:01:12] understand them. And it won't happen to
[01:01:15] most people. Most people will just have
[01:01:16] cognitive dissonance. They'll still
[01:01:18] believe he was, you know, Hitler Jr.,
[01:01:21] but there's there will be some people,
[01:01:23] you know, not not a big percentage who
[01:01:26] are going to realize that they did
[01:01:27] something so shameful that it will haunt
[01:01:30] them for the rest of their lives. that
[01:01:32] that they were part of saying something
[01:01:35] terrible about one of the best people
[01:01:38] that we've witnessed. I mean, he he
[01:01:41] genuinely was a high character person
[01:01:44] and you could see in everything he did.
[01:01:46] So, uh there's something big coming up.
[01:01:50] But then another thing that happened
[01:01:52] that was fascinating to me because I
[01:01:55] didn't expect it which was the Democrats
[01:01:58] have always had what I'd call a machine
[01:02:00] which is that since they worked with the
[01:02:03] media you know they had the media in
[01:02:04] their pocket. You would see it happen
[01:02:06] when they'd have some all right our
[01:02:08] message this week are these words and
[01:02:11] then everybody would say the same words
[01:02:13] and then the media would just pump it
[01:02:16] out. So it was like this big well
[01:02:18] functioning machine and then they had
[01:02:19] the NOS's and all the funding tricks
[01:02:22] etc. Uh but when uh Charlie Kirk died
[01:02:27] you could almost feel this massive
[01:02:30] energy being released you know he he
[01:02:33] sort of controlled it but when it was
[01:02:36] released you know his his mortal coil uh
[01:02:39] was no more. Uh I feel like that energy
[01:02:42] just went into people. Um and suddenly
[01:02:46] tens of millions of people
[01:02:48] simultaneously said what can I do? What
[01:02:51] can I do right now? That's different.
[01:02:55] People don't say I'm going to stop
[01:02:57] everything. Tell me what to do. I I'm
[01:02:59] going to go to church. A lot of people
[01:03:01] did. Uh I'm going to say stuff on social
[01:03:04] media. I'm going to hunt down the people
[01:03:06] who said bad things and cancel them. But
[01:03:09] I'm gonna do something. You know, we're
[01:03:11] we're we're gonna figure out how to
[01:03:12] start another chapter of, you know,
[01:03:15] TPUSA
[01:03:16] and uh all of that's happening and it
[01:03:19] doesn't seem to be slowing down. You
[01:03:22] know, the vigils, etc. If anything, the
[01:03:25] energy,
[01:03:26] it might be growing. Uh and I've never
[01:03:28] seen anything like it in my life. I've
[01:03:30] never seen the Republicans turn into
[01:03:33] their own machine. And now it is a
[01:03:35] machine. And uh it's going to be
[01:03:37] incredible. I so uh you know I uh I was
[01:03:42] thinking yesterday it sounds like a joke
[01:03:44] but it's quite serious. The thing that
[01:03:47] protects the Democrats from you know
[01:03:50] also having some kind of problem like
[01:03:52] this is that they don't have any leaders
[01:03:54] that are worth taking off the board. I
[01:03:57] mean, if if you said to me, uh,
[01:03:59] somebody's got a plot to take Tim Walsh
[01:04:02] off the board, I would say, oh, no, no.
[01:04:05] If you're a Republican, you ought to
[01:04:07] keep him there because he he he's not
[01:04:09] doing a good job. You know, you're
[01:04:11] you're Jasmine Crockis, your Chuck
[01:04:13] Schumer's, I say, please keep them right
[01:04:16] where they are. They're doing a great
[01:04:17] job. Nobody needs to harm them. But on
[01:04:20] top of that, uh, I don't believe that
[01:04:23] Republicans, conservatives ever even
[01:04:26] think that way. I've never heard one say
[01:04:29] anything suggesting violence. Like, not
[01:04:32] even in just a casual conversation, the
[01:04:35] joking way. You might do it in private.
[01:04:37] Nothing like that. And I think it has to
[01:04:40] do with the fact that overall the uh the
[01:04:44] conservatives, the Republicans, MAGA
[01:04:46] people tend to look at Democrats almost
[01:04:49] as if they're clowns. They they say
[01:04:51] things that literally make me laugh. No
[01:04:54] joke. I uh I sound like Biden here, but
[01:04:56] uh uh I literally
[01:05:00] that frightened me a little bit. Uh, I
[01:05:02] literally, uh, will watch the news and
[01:05:06] watch Republican, you know, prominent
[01:05:08] people talking because I think it's
[01:05:10] funny. And when they watch, um, when the
[01:05:14] left watches the right, they think
[01:05:17] they're watching monsters.
[01:05:19] >> Yes.
[01:05:19] >> So, you can imagine how that somebody
[01:05:21] want to kill a monster, but nobody wants
[01:05:23] to kill a clown. Well, maybe somebody
[01:05:25] does, but, you know, so far, Republicans
[01:05:28] have not wanted to kill any clowns. And
[01:05:31] I do think
[01:05:33] um well first of all that the
[01:05:35] cancellations we're seeing I have a
[01:05:37] little bit of mixed feelings about it
[01:05:39] because my point of view is that the
[01:05:40] people involved who are getting
[01:05:42] cancelled are themselves brainwashed and
[01:05:45] I don't mean that in sort of the um I
[01:05:49] don't know they the hypothetical way or
[01:05:51] anything like I mean actually literally
[01:05:54] they've been exposed to the strongest
[01:05:56] brainwashing you could have which is
[01:05:58] about eight years of wall-to-wall
[01:06:00] Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, Hitler. And you
[01:06:02] know, Charlie's one of the generals. So
[01:06:05] if you can't get to the Hitler, you're
[01:06:08] thinking, well, you know, maybe maybe
[01:06:09] one of the generals will be less
[01:06:11] protected. And that was the case. But um
[01:06:14] I feel a little bit bad for them because
[01:06:16] they're they're victims, too. But at the
[01:06:20] same time, the way society works, you
[01:06:22] can't let them get away with that. So,
[01:06:24] you know, there has to be some some
[01:06:26] reckoning. And I am enjoying I have to
[01:06:29] say being a canceled person myself I am
[01:06:32] enjoying the uh shenan freud or the uh
[01:06:37] you know the the catharsis of seeing
[01:06:39] that it can go both ways at least for
[01:06:42] now. Uh, and by the way, I do think that
[01:06:44] the violence goes in both directions,
[01:06:47] but I don't think that there is a an
[01:06:49] equivalent to a massive machine that's
[01:06:52] been creating a situation that
[01:06:54] guaranteed there would be violence. If
[01:06:57] you just keep saying Hitler and you're
[01:06:59] selling it not as hyperbole, but you're
[01:07:02] selling it as absolute fact, the people
[01:07:05] who don't have access to alternative
[01:07:07] theories are going to believe that and
[01:07:10] and they're going to act on it. So,
[01:07:14] and and I like the fact that there's a
[01:07:15] little mutually assured destruction. Uh
[01:07:18] the the left is getting to see a little
[01:07:20] bit of payback, reminding that the that
[01:07:23] the uh Republicans aren't going to take
[01:07:27] infinite abuse. You know, there's going
[01:07:28] to be a point where it's going to come
[01:07:30] back. I kind of like that. Um but I
[01:07:33] just, you know, overall I wouldn't be
[01:07:36] proud of it. You know, the the
[01:07:38] cancellations. I do believe that they're
[01:07:40] they're brainwashed victims.
[01:07:43] >> So may
[01:07:43] >> and I do wonder Yeah. Go ahead.
[01:07:46] >> Well, I thought your description of
[01:07:47] brainwashing
[01:07:49] seems accurate. It's very distressing to
[01:07:51] think that could happen in our free
[01:07:54] republic, you know, um the free and
[01:07:57] brave United States. I I thought the
[01:07:59] people were more independent-minded than
[01:08:01] that. Um so that's sad. It's probably
[01:08:04] just human though, a weakness that we
[01:08:06] all share. the susceptibility to
[01:08:08] propaganda, but that why would you want
[01:08:12] to hypnotize a population or a portion
[01:08:14] of it? Like usually there's a goal in
[01:08:16] mind. What's the goal here?
[01:08:18] >> Well, power
[01:08:21] democrats know that they can win an
[01:08:23] election that way. If if they had better
[01:08:25] ideas and better policies and
[01:08:27] charismatic leaders, I imagine that's
[01:08:30] what they'd go with.
[01:08:32] >> Yeah. But you know, Trump Trump enters
[01:08:34] the uh the contest and you have the most
[01:08:37] charismatic
[01:08:39] leader with sensational ideas according
[01:08:42] to at least his base. What are you going
[01:08:45] to do? You know, he he's the common
[01:08:47] sense guy. Are you going to say, "We
[01:08:48] really do want the border open. We we
[01:08:51] really do want a little bit of more
[01:08:52] crime in our urban centers." What are
[01:08:54] you going to do? you you don't have any
[01:08:57] kind of a rational attack to the common
[01:09:00] sense president who's been here before
[01:09:02] and knows how to get this stuff done.
[01:09:04] So, it's just all they have. Um, and I
[01:09:07] don't know that it's I don't know that
[01:09:09] it's intentional that they did it so
[01:09:11] hard that it guaranteed violence. I
[01:09:14] don't think violence was the intention.
[01:09:16] I think just winning elections was the
[01:09:18] intention.
[01:09:19] >> Yeah, that sounds right. So, thank you
[01:09:22] for this. By the way, last question.
[01:09:24] Where where do you foresee this going?
[01:09:28] >> Well, you know, it's it's unpredictable
[01:09:30] because the cognitive dissonance will
[01:09:32] cause people to think in a way that's
[01:09:35] non-standard. That's that's exactly what
[01:09:37] it is. So, there might be a lot more of
[01:09:39] that coming. But one of the things
[01:09:41] that's going to happen is it might be
[01:09:43] the the last um uh what would you call
[01:09:47] it? The last straw that makes the entire
[01:09:49] Democrat situation collapse. Because if
[01:09:52] you look at their situation, they're
[01:09:54] running out of money. They don't have
[01:09:55] good leaders. They don't have ideas that
[01:09:57] can, you know, beat the competing ideas.
[01:10:00] And uh they don't have momentum. They
[01:10:02] don't have the podcast world. You know,
[01:10:04] the conservatives have that pretty
[01:10:06] nailed down. Um basically, they have the
[01:10:09] right the best talent for just about
[01:10:12] everything right now. Just an amazing
[01:10:14] amount of talent
[01:10:16] uh in the uh the right side of the
[01:10:18] world. But then you add on top of that
[01:10:21] the the emotions and the feelings that
[01:10:23] people got because of uh Charlie Kirk's
[01:10:26] death and that was probably the only
[01:10:29] thing missing was no matter what I'm
[01:10:33] going to get to the voting booth. You
[01:10:34] know you you could have a hurricane and
[01:10:37] and uh conservatives are going to crawl
[01:10:40] through glass to get to the voting
[01:10:42] booth. So, I suspect that we will see a
[01:10:47] number of votes from the Republicans
[01:10:49] like we've never seen before. It it
[01:10:52] could be sensational.
[01:10:54] >> Scott Adams, I I really am grateful that
[01:10:56] you took time to do this. Um, you look
[01:10:59] great. Thank you very much. God speed.
[01:11:02] >> Thanks, sir.
[01:11:03] >> Thanks. I got a text earlier today from
[01:11:06] someone I sort of know saying, Shank
[01:11:09] Uger, why why is he on your show? the
[01:11:11] Young Turks guy. Um, isn't this a
[01:11:13] tribute to Charlie Kirk? Why would you
[01:11:15] have some like screamy lefty on your
[01:11:17] show? Well, precisely because
[01:11:21] Charlie Kirk's life work was speaking
[01:11:24] with not just two, but with people he
[01:11:27] disagreed with vehemently.
[01:11:30] I thought that our next guest, who's run
[01:11:32] the Young Turks for probably almost 20
[01:11:34] years now, I think he can correct me if
[01:11:35] I'm wrong, uh, who is one of the most
[01:11:37] visible daily broadcasters on the left.
[01:11:40] the fact that he had this kind of
[01:11:41] amazing exchange with Charlie Kirk.
[01:11:44] Well, a couple of them. Um, but one
[01:11:46] pretty recently. I thought it'd be worth
[01:11:48] hearing what he thought. Um, so it is,
[01:11:52] uh, with Pride that we announced our
[01:11:54] next guest. Thank you, Jen, for coming
[01:11:56] on.
[01:11:57] >> Uh, no problem, Tucker. Thanks for
[01:11:58] having me on. I I think it's important
[01:12:00] that we have a moment like this where we
[01:12:01] try to bring the country together.
[01:12:03] >> Amen. I I so strongly agree. You had
[01:12:06] this kind of famous exchange with him. I
[01:12:09] think it was 2018 at Politicon and it
[01:12:11] got super heated and bitter and it was
[01:12:15] like I don't know things were viral in
[01:12:16] 2018 but it was viral. Um and then you
[01:12:20] came back to a TPUSA event and I was
[01:12:23] amazed and impressed both that he
[01:12:26] invited you and that you came and you
[01:12:29] still disagreed on some things but it
[01:12:31] was I mean the tone was completely
[01:12:33] different. Can you explain that and
[01:12:35] better and great I thought.
[01:12:37] >> Yeah. So, first of all, in 2018, that
[01:12:40] was the Politicon that I debated you.
[01:12:42] Um,
[01:12:43] >> sorry.
[01:12:45] >> We got along pretty well as I remember.
[01:12:48] >> We did. We did. Um, and Charlie was
[01:12:51] debating my nephew, Hassan. Um, Son
[01:12:53] Biker. And but I couldn't help myself
[01:12:56] because that's who I am. And I in the
[01:12:59] middle of their debate, I said something
[01:13:00] to Charlie when I I wasn't on stage. I
[01:13:03] was in the crowd. and he yelled at me,
[01:13:05] "I live like a capitalist every day,
[01:13:07] Chank." Uh, and then we, by the way,
[01:13:10] some people then thought that it was a
[01:13:12] racial slur. No, that was just my name.
[01:13:14] Uh, he was just slightly mispronouncing
[01:13:17] it. Um, so, uh, then actually something
[01:13:20] happened in between uh, that moment and
[01:13:23] Turning Point USA um, America Fest. So,
[01:13:27] we were at the RNC in 2024 and uh
[01:13:31] Charlie came by at our booth and said,
[01:13:34] "Hey, do you guys want to talk?" And we
[01:13:38] were uh a little bit taken aback by
[01:13:40] that. We're really surprised by it. And
[01:13:42] uh Anna and I, Anna Kasparians, my
[01:13:44] co-host on the Young Turks, yes,
[01:13:46] >> uh talked it over and said, "Yeah, yeah,
[01:13:48] we would like to talk." And so he came
[01:13:50] on the show and so we had our
[01:13:53] disagreements. So for the It's
[01:13:55] interesting that you have me on here.
[01:13:56] you know, partly uh for the reasons that
[01:13:59] uh you know, your friend texted you
[01:14:01] about. Oh, well, that's strange, right?
[01:14:03] Left and right. Um and and so I I don't
[01:14:06] agree with everything that you, Megan,
[01:14:08] and and Scott said about Charlie.
[01:14:10] >> I'm sure,
[01:14:11] >> right? But but I think that's what makes
[01:14:13] it more interesting. Uh so the willing
[01:14:16] that the willingness to talk to us even
[01:14:18] though we were so entrenched uh on
[01:14:21] different sides, right? And so then when
[01:14:24] we started the conversation, what wound
[01:14:27] up happening, it surprised us. So did we
[01:14:30] still have our disagreements about the
[01:14:32] black pilot line, this that and the
[01:14:33] other thing? Of course we did, right? Uh
[01:14:36] but when we started talking about
[01:14:38] corporate rule, he agreed.
[01:14:42] And I remember like I want to go back
[01:14:44] and watch the first interview we did
[01:14:46] with him at the RNC there because I was
[01:14:48] kind of shocked by it. It's like really
[01:14:51] you're also worried about corporations
[01:14:53] having too much power and and right
[01:14:57] because that Tucker you can understand
[01:15:00] that was a that was a left-wing position
[01:15:03] for a long time in this country.
[01:15:04] >> It was
[01:15:05] >> but but the battle has been joined and
[01:15:07] so that is an incredible development in
[01:15:11] American politics that mainstream media
[01:15:13] I think has chosen to ignore because
[01:15:15] it's inconvenient for them. Uh then we
[01:15:18] got into a specific topic um which was
[01:15:21] banning private equity from buying
[01:15:25] residential real estate. And the idea
[01:15:27] behind that is private equity is the
[01:15:30] biggest bankers in the world. Basically
[01:15:32] they they are the uh biggest financial
[01:15:34] institutions and they've started to buy
[01:15:36] all of our homes. Now that creates a
[01:15:38] huge uh number of problems. Number one
[01:15:41] it drives up housing prices. That is why
[01:15:43] they are artificially high because so
[01:15:45] much more demand has come into the
[01:15:47] market. And I I went to Wharton business
[01:15:49] school. So this is not complicated
[01:15:52] though. This is econ 101, supply and
[01:15:54] demand, right? And so uh secondly, what
[01:15:58] the number one uh wealth creation asset
[01:16:02] that the American family has is their
[01:16:04] homes. That is how we created the
[01:16:06] greatest middle class the world has ever
[01:16:08] seen. and they're taking that from us
[01:16:10] and they're going to turn us all into
[01:16:12] renters and then we're going to be
[01:16:14] indentured servants to them. Okay? And
[01:16:17] the way that they are doing this is they
[01:16:19] are uh giving
[01:16:22] collectively billions of dollars to our
[01:16:25] politicians. So this issue connects
[01:16:27] actually the the money and politics
[01:16:29] issue connects to everything connects to
[01:16:31] corporate rule compar connects to
[01:16:33] capitalism by the way which I want to
[01:16:34] get back to connects to Israel because
[01:16:37] it isn't about Israel or any other
[01:16:40] particular lobby being uh evil or
[01:16:43] dastardly or in charge. It's the money
[01:16:46] that's in charge. And so if uh big
[01:16:50] pharma, Fizer, Johnson and Johnson, etc.
[01:16:53] give money to our politicians. Well,
[01:16:55] then they pass absurd laws like we're
[01:16:57] not allowed to negotiate drug prices,
[01:16:59] >> right?
[01:17:00] >> What in the world? In capitalism, you're
[01:17:03] not allowed to negotiate prices, right?
[01:17:07] >> I know.
[01:17:08] >> So, and we talked about that and he
[01:17:10] said, "You're right. That that is
[01:17:11] absurd." And we on the right already
[01:17:13] believe that that it's absurd and that
[01:17:15] it's against capitalism.
[01:17:17] Fantastic.
[01:17:19] So, look, you're right. We've been
[01:17:21] around a long time on the Young Tour. We
[01:17:23] were actually the longest running show
[01:17:24] in internet history. And in that time,
[01:17:27] we've had, you know, we've been on for
[01:17:29] 23 years. We've had about 21 to 22 years
[01:17:33] of hardened battle, right? Fighting back
[01:17:36] and forth, fighting back and forth,
[01:17:37] right? And as anybody who's seen me uh
[01:17:40] online knows, I I can get emotional. I
[01:17:43] can get passionate. Yeah. And I'm not a
[01:17:46] wilting flower. I fight back for sure.
[01:17:48] Right. Um, so what was amazing though
[01:17:52] was all of a sudden I didn't have to
[01:17:54] fight back. That on those issues, not
[01:17:56] every issue and not on all the cultural
[01:17:58] wars, but on these economic issues, we
[01:18:00] have begun to agree. And why? Because
[01:18:04] the average guy is getting screwed. Yes.
[01:18:07] Period. It doesn't matter if you're on
[01:18:09] the left or the right, you're both going
[01:18:11] to get screwed. You're both going to
[01:18:13] have higher housing prices. You're both
[01:18:14] going to have lower wages. You're both
[01:18:16] going to have higher drug prices. And
[01:18:18] the people that brought you that is the
[01:18:20] donor class. And so when we agreed to
[01:18:24] that, then I said, "Okay, well now
[01:18:26] conversation has become productive.
[01:18:29] We're not just yelling at each other.
[01:18:30] For the first time ever, we are talking
[01:18:32] to one another and more importantly, we
[01:18:34] are listening to one another." So we did
[01:18:37] it again at the DNC.
[01:18:39] And then Charlie invited me to America
[01:18:41] Fest and I went there and again we
[01:18:45] disagreed on gun rights. We disagreed on
[01:18:48] some trans issues, uh, but we wound up
[01:18:51] agreeing on Dick Cheney and Mitch
[01:18:54] McConnell, uh, for example.
[01:18:56] >> Neither one of us like him like either
[01:18:58] one of them.
[01:18:59] >> I agree. And you know, Tucker, I'll say
[01:19:02] this, and there's a lot more to to talk
[01:19:04] about in that context, but um if you
[01:19:08] told me you are going to go to a massive
[01:19:10] right-wing conference in the year 2025,
[01:19:14] um
[01:19:16] and what's going to happen is the crowd
[01:19:19] in unison is going to boo Dick Cheney.
[01:19:21] If you told me that when we first
[01:19:23] started The Young Turks and we're
[01:19:24] railing against Dick Cheney, don't go in
[01:19:26] Iraq. Don't go in Iraq. Cheney is lying,
[01:19:29] right? And people are yelling back,
[01:19:31] "Support the troops, you're for Saddam,"
[01:19:34] and all this stuff. If you told me, "Oh,
[01:19:36] don't worry. In 20 some odd years, that
[01:19:38] crowd will be booing Dick Chain." And
[01:19:41] that crowd will be booing Mitch
[01:19:42] McConnell because they realize that the
[01:19:45] corporate class, the donor class is in
[01:19:47] charge, and they hate it. I would have
[01:19:49] said, "Oh my god, that must be a
[01:19:51] beautiful day in America."
[01:19:54] >> Well, so this is what I admire about
[01:19:57] you. You're you're totally sincere about
[01:19:59] your principles. Like you you you almost
[01:20:01] don't care who's agreeing with you. You
[01:20:03] believe in the idea, the principle. So
[01:20:05] you're willing to make common cause with
[01:20:07] people you don't agree with in
[01:20:08] everything. You're not partisan. And and
[01:20:11] the second thing I should just I just
[01:20:12] want to say it out loud is that Young
[01:20:14] Turks, whatever you think of your
[01:20:16] politics, has had a stated commitment to
[01:20:18] non-violence from the very beginning.
[01:20:20] And you mean it. And I just I just want
[01:20:22] to say that for people who don't know
[01:20:24] that. And I want to thank you for that
[01:20:25] because I think it's really important.
[01:20:27] And um anyway, but so let me ask you,
[01:20:30] how were you treated at Amfest at
[01:20:33] Charlie's event?
[01:20:34] >> Yeah. Um by the way, thank you for
[01:20:37] saying that, Tucker. And the principle
[01:20:39] of nonviolence extends through
[01:20:42] everything. So do not be violent to each
[01:20:44] other. Violence is intellectual
[01:20:45] surrender. That's saying, I can't win
[01:20:47] the debate with my mind. So I have to
[01:20:49] act like an animal and try to defeat
[01:20:51] that person physically. But that means
[01:20:53] you're surrendering and you're giving
[01:20:54] up. It is it's the most immoral thing
[01:20:57] you could do. It's also the weakest
[01:20:59] thing you could do.
[01:21:00] >> Yes, I agree.
[01:21:00] >> Uh and but that's on not just on an
[01:21:03] individual level that's also on a
[01:21:06] societal level. So when we go to war
[01:21:09] that is in a sense weakness saying we
[01:21:11] could not use our minds to resolve this
[01:21:13] issue. We could not resolve this issue
[01:21:15] as fellow human beings. So now we're
[01:21:17] going to kill each other. So it that is
[01:21:20] why we're anti-war and that is why one
[01:21:22] of the most encouraging developments of
[01:21:24] my life is how anti-war the right-wing
[01:21:26] movement has become. So that another
[01:21:29] great day in America. So still plenty of
[01:21:31] things we disagree on but the
[01:21:33] >> but but agreeing on anti-war agreeing on
[01:21:37] how the donor class is is robbing both
[01:21:40] of us blind. I mean those are huge
[01:21:42] developments. Right. So now how was I
[01:21:44] treated at Amfest? I've got to be honest
[01:21:46] with you. And and so the the reason why
[01:21:48] I preface it by saying I got to be
[01:21:50] honest with you is because sometimes
[01:21:52] when we go and talk to the rightwing
[01:21:55] and and as you say we haven't moved on a
[01:21:57] thing, right? So folks come to us and I
[01:22:01] have a simple principle. Take the win.
[01:22:03] >> Okay.
[01:22:04] >> Take the win. Exactly.
[01:22:06] >> Like so. Okay. Now you agree with me
[01:22:08] that uh anti-war is the right position.
[01:22:11] Is my correct answer that I still hate
[01:22:14] you? No, that is not the correct answer.
[01:22:18] >> The correct answer is Oh, thank God. All
[01:22:20] right.
[01:22:22] >> Right. And now we'll work on the next
[01:22:24] thing and the next thing and the next
[01:22:25] thing. But for now, at least we had no
[01:22:28] agreements before. Now we have have a
[01:22:30] number of really important agreements.
[01:22:32] So, but nevertheless, I had my share of
[01:22:35] critics on the left. You're you're
[01:22:36] platforming it.
[01:22:39] >> I went to his conference. I wasn't
[01:22:41] platforming him. He was platforming me.
[01:22:43] Right. Yeah.
[01:22:44] >> And and second of all, stop with all the
[01:22:46] nonsense talk of platforming people.
[01:22:48] Okay.
[01:22:49] >> I agree.
[01:22:50] >> Just listen to one another. Talk to one
[01:22:52] another. That's not a bad thing. That's
[01:22:54] a good thing. But but what if you
[01:22:56] disagree and of course you're going to
[01:23:00] disagree. It's America. We're free. We
[01:23:03] have No two human beings are the same.
[01:23:05] Of course, we're going to disagree on
[01:23:07] some issues. So if you can't handle
[01:23:09] that, then you can't handle politics.
[01:23:11] You can't handle media. you can't handle
[01:23:13] America, right? So, okay. So, with that
[01:23:16] giant preface, I'll say the people there
[01:23:19] honestly were universally wonderful. Um,
[01:23:22] so
[01:23:24] they were and so you could say, "Oh,
[01:23:26] well, you know, haha, that means Jensen
[01:23:28] with the rightwing." No, I'm just
[01:23:30] telling you what happened. If they were
[01:23:31] jerks, I would tell you that they were
[01:23:32] jerks. But they weren't. Okay? And and
[01:23:36] I've gotta say like this cancel culture,
[01:23:39] it's not exclusively leftwing.
[01:23:43] >> Tell tell me about it. I mean,
[01:23:45] >> yeah,
[01:23:46] >> the efforts that some people made to
[01:23:49] keep me from speaking at the next TPUSA
[01:23:51] thing. People I agree with on a lot of
[01:23:53] things, by the way. I don't disagree
[01:23:55] with Seth Dylan and everything, Mr. Free
[01:23:57] Speech Guy trying to cancel me. But I
[01:23:59] was like shocked by it. Like they really
[01:24:02] hassled Charlie and just drove him to
[01:24:05] you know, to really fret and drove him
[01:24:08] to anxiety over this. Oh, no, no, no.
[01:24:10] That impulse is a human impulse and we
[01:24:12] need to resist it.
[01:24:13] >> Yeah. So, I love what you guys said
[01:24:15] about hate speech and how it's
[01:24:17] unacceptable to pass laws on that.
[01:24:19] >> It's not acceptable.
[01:24:20] >> Yeah. Under no circumstances. So, and
[01:24:23] this is what I say on that topic. So, uh
[01:24:26] Charlie says some things about uh Islam
[01:24:29] that, you know, having grown up Muslim,
[01:24:31] I'm atheist now, but my family is
[01:24:32] Muslim. My background is Muslim. I'm
[01:24:34] proud of it. Um, he said some things
[01:24:36] about Islam that I was not a fan of,
[01:24:38] right? To say the least.
[01:24:40] >> I bet.
[01:24:40] >> So, so you know what I did in return?
[01:24:43] Uh, I made my case.
[01:24:46] >> So what, right? Like what's why is it so
[01:24:51] like debilitating if someone says
[01:24:53] something that you find offensive? I've
[01:24:56] said things that I'm sure others have
[01:24:57] found offensive. You have, Charlie has,
[01:24:59] Megan has. So what? then you say
[01:25:03] something back. Okay, we don't cancel,
[01:25:06] we don't kill, and killing is the most
[01:25:09] extreme form of cancel culture. So, I
[01:25:13] despise cancel culture and I have the
[01:25:16] honor of being having been cancelled by
[01:25:18] almost every part of the political
[01:25:20] spectrum.
[01:25:21] >> So, ma, man, what an was that was really
[01:25:25] inspiring. And I'm going to text back
[01:25:27] the the person who texted me and say,
[01:25:29] "Did you watch that? That was wonderful
[01:25:32] and I so appreciate you're doing this.
[01:25:35] Thank you. And I hope you don't take too
[01:25:36] much abuse for it.
[01:25:38] >> Um, and I'm sure you will, but I guess
[01:25:41] you don't care. So, good for you.
[01:25:43] >> Yeah, that'll bounce off me so quick. I
[01:25:46] just say this one last thing, Tucker. I
[01:25:48] mean, the idea of uh making laws against
[01:25:51] hate speech
[01:25:53] >> in honor of Charlie Kerr.
[01:25:54] >> No, I know. I know.
[01:25:56] >> Okay. That's like if I passed away and
[01:25:57] they're like, "In honor of Jenk, we're
[01:25:59] all going to go on a diet.
[01:26:02] Tell me about it. Or the Tucker Carlson
[01:26:05] no pizza law. No, I I agree. I agree.
[01:26:09] >> Come on. That is the opposite of what
[01:26:11] I've did in my life. And and regulating
[01:26:14] speech is the opposite of what Charlie
[01:26:16] did in his life. So, let's all keep
[01:26:18] talking to one another. Let's all keep
[01:26:20] listening to one another and hopefully
[01:26:23] use this moment not to create further
[01:26:25] tragedy, but to begin to end the
[01:26:28] tragedies. Yeah, I'm proud to agree with
[01:26:30] that, you know, really, really strongly.
[01:26:32] So, thank you for saying it very much.
[01:26:35] >> Thank you, Tom.
[01:26:35] >> Great to see you. Thanks.
[01:26:37] >> You, too.
[01:26:39] >> So, we want to end tonight um the way we
[01:26:42] began by talking about Charlie's faith
[01:26:46] and the effect on all of us from a
[01:26:48] spiritual perspective uh of his life and
[01:26:51] particularly his death. There were
[01:26:52] reports that the Sunday church
[01:26:54] attendance was up dramatically
[01:26:56] um as people suddenly felt stirrings
[01:26:58] within them that this you know had
[01:27:01] cosmic significance and that God is real
[01:27:03] and this is a reminder that he is which
[01:27:06] he is. Um Josiah Trenum is a Christian
[01:27:09] minister and we are honored to have him
[01:27:12] now to put this in a broader spiritual
[01:27:15] context. Thank you very much uh for
[01:27:17] coming on Father Trenum. Um, so how
[01:27:20] would how would you say
[01:27:23] we should think about where this goes
[01:27:25] from here? Like people seem to have a
[01:27:28] heightened spiritualware awareness in
[01:27:30] the days after Charlie Kirk's murder.
[01:27:33] Um, how should we proceed?
[01:27:36] >> Well, thanks a lot, Tucker, for having
[01:27:38] me on. Uh, I appreciate your your
[01:27:41] interest and desire to bring a priest
[01:27:42] into this conversation. I think it's
[01:27:45] valuable.
[01:27:46] I would say upfront
[01:27:49] we should be very careful to make any
[01:27:52] sort of conclusion from this during this
[01:27:54] very intense time of mourning.
[01:27:56] >> Yes.
[01:27:57] >> You know, we we Christians we Christians
[01:27:59] have a a tradition 2,000-y old tradition
[01:28:02] on how to respond to death. And we take
[01:28:05] our time. We take our this is day seven.
[01:28:08] This is day seven. usually for 40 days
[01:28:11] uh we mourn very very seriously. In the
[01:28:15] in the Orthodox tradition for instance
[01:28:17] when a bishop or a major leader of the
[01:28:19] church dies uh he's not replaced until
[01:28:22] the 40 days is done. Um and that's not
[01:28:26] just out of respect for the person in
[01:28:28] this case. uh mourning Charlie really
[01:28:32] processing what his loss means is very
[01:28:36] necessary to do and it takes time to do
[01:28:38] that and we're not going to be able to
[01:28:40] make good decisions about the future uh
[01:28:44] without calming down and processing uh
[01:28:48] what we've gone through. So this is the
[01:28:50] time I think that we should be very
[01:28:52] careful. We should mourn. We should
[01:28:56] consign all
[01:28:58] bad memories uh to the memory hole. Uh
[01:29:02] bad experiences is what we do for our
[01:29:04] loved ones when they die. We there's no
[01:29:06] benefit in remembering the bad. We
[01:29:08] instead
[01:29:09] honor the good and try to imitate the
[01:29:11] good. We try to
[01:29:15] in the person's name do good. So this is
[01:29:18] my first my first thought is really we
[01:29:21] should mourn. We should be who we are
[01:29:23] and this is what Christian people do. We
[01:29:25] should take our time about this.
[01:29:28] >> What what I'm I'm unfamiliar with this.
[01:29:31] I'm embarrassed to say I don't know
[01:29:33] enough about it, but I sense that it's
[01:29:34] rooted in something important and wise.
[01:29:37] Can you explain a little more why 40
[01:29:39] days and what Christians have done
[01:29:42] traditionally during that 40 days? What
[01:29:43] does it mean to mourn seriously?
[01:29:46] >> Yeah. Well, I share your your sense of u
[01:29:49] it it not being something common
[01:29:51] anymore, which is why I'm I'm I'm
[01:29:53] presenting it because it is so
[01:29:55] universally human actually and it's not
[01:29:57] just Christian. Uh
[01:29:59] >> the the number 40 of course is humongous
[01:30:02] uh in the holy scriptures. It's
[01:30:04] absolutely humongous. And the 40 days of
[01:30:07] Christ, fasting, for instance, uh in the
[01:30:09] desert, 40 is a very important uh length
[01:30:13] of time that allows us to truly not make
[01:30:16] uh immediate reactions that would be
[01:30:18] that we would regret. Um and in right
[01:30:22] now everything is so raw, everyone who
[01:30:25] knows and loves Charlie, like you um
[01:30:29] this is a very dangerous time. It's a
[01:30:31] very dangerous time. you're being very
[01:30:32] courageous and you're actually
[01:30:34] processing this with people who have
[01:30:36] known and respected Charlie, which is
[01:30:38] fantastic thing to do. Uh, but a lot of
[01:30:41] people who are in the conservative
[01:30:43] political movement are are raging.
[01:30:45] They're very angry. Uh, I was watching a
[01:30:48] clip from Matt Walsh yesterday and I saw
[01:30:51] that Matt was just out there saying that
[01:30:54] he is just overcome with anger. I think
[01:30:57] that's understandable. Completely
[01:30:59] understandable.
[01:31:00] >> I I have felt that. Yes,
[01:31:02] >> I'm sure. I'm sure. But for us to uh
[01:31:05] respect uh our this this Christian
[01:31:08] tradition to pray uh typically in in in
[01:31:12] the Orthodox and the Catholic tradition
[01:31:13] both during the 40 days uh we do good uh
[01:31:17] in that person's name. We actually take
[01:31:20] doms uh we do charity uh in that
[01:31:23] person's name. In fact, you're doing
[01:31:25] that. Uh I I'm maybe you weren't
[01:31:27] intentionally trying to do it in a
[01:31:29] traditional Christian way, but that is
[01:31:30] what you're doing by trying to help
[01:31:31] Erica uh and support her. Uh I was very
[01:31:35] very happy to see that you're doing that
[01:31:37] because it's it's what we do. It's what
[01:31:39] we do uh in this period. We all we
[01:31:42] usually also pray for the person. We
[01:31:44] don't think that a person when they die
[01:31:47] bing they've made the transition to the
[01:31:50] next life instantaneously. There are
[01:31:52] some uh in the Protestant tradition who
[01:31:54] think that. Not all Protestants think
[01:31:55] that but there are some. But the vast
[01:31:57] majority of Christians, Catholic,
[01:31:58] Orthodox and some like the Anglicans, we
[01:32:01] actually pray for the souls of the
[01:32:04] departed. Uh and we think we use the
[01:32:08] image of uh the story of Lazarus and the
[01:32:11] rich man from the gospels where Lazarus
[01:32:14] is the poor beggar. He's neglected by
[01:32:16] the rich man. And when he dies, what
[01:32:18] happens? an angelic escort comes and
[01:32:21] picks him up and takes him on the
[01:32:24] journey to the bosom of Abraham.
[01:32:27] For us, uh that that is a journey that
[01:32:29] this process is a journey uh of of for
[01:32:32] Christians of going towards the kingdom
[01:32:34] of God. But we don't think that uh it's
[01:32:36] instantaneous. And so we're
[01:32:38] collaborating. It's part of what our
[01:32:40] funerals are too. Our funerals are us
[01:32:42] gathering around the person and asking
[01:32:45] the Lord uh in his great mercy to
[01:32:48] receive our brother or our sister and
[01:32:51] place them in paradise until we can see
[01:32:54] them again. And we're also learning the
[01:32:57] lesson of sobriety. We're learning the
[01:32:59] lesson of death. we have to think about
[01:33:02] death and stare it in the face because
[01:33:04] one of the great reasons uh we are so
[01:33:06] undeveloped spiritually speaking as a
[01:33:09] nation is because we don't face death.
[01:33:12] >> Yes.
[01:33:13] >> One of the reasons that we have an
[01:33:14] incredible revival going on uh all over
[01:33:17] the United States right now is because
[01:33:19] of co faced it it caused us to face
[01:33:23] death. We had been hiding it. you know,
[01:33:26] we've moved our our old people, our
[01:33:28] parents and the sick into old folks
[01:33:30] homes and hospitals and they die there
[01:33:32] usually not surrounded by their family
[01:33:34] members and then some Christian
[01:33:36] traditions now even do funerals without
[01:33:39] the body. That is just nuts. It's just
[01:33:43] nuts and it steals it steals from us the
[01:33:46] very very important process of mourning
[01:33:50] and uh facing death and it changes you
[01:33:53] you know in the Orthodox tradition in
[01:33:54] the Orthodox Christian tradition the
[01:33:56] funeral service was written by one of
[01:33:58] the great theologians of the church his
[01:33:59] name is St. John of Damascus. He lived
[01:34:02] from 650 to 750. An incredible
[01:34:04] himnologist, incredible scholar. Um he
[01:34:08] actually was
[01:34:10] a a very important political figure uh
[01:34:13] at the time that Islam his his father
[01:34:15] and grandfather governed the city of
[01:34:18] Damascus. And when it was taken over by
[01:34:20] Islam in the 7th century, uh the Muslims
[01:34:23] left the Christians in place for about
[01:34:25] 50 years because Muslims were bedin
[01:34:28] peasants. They didn't have cities. they
[01:34:30] didn't have development and they
[01:34:31] couldn't run uh a city like Damascus. So
[01:34:33] they let the Christians do it for about
[01:34:35] a half a century and then about 706 that
[01:34:37] was it and no more Christians in
[01:34:39] leadership and he became a monk at that
[01:34:40] time John of Damascus and he wrote this
[01:34:43] incredible funeral service uh for one of
[01:34:46] his dear brothers um and it's used to
[01:34:49] this day for the last 13 centuries and
[01:34:51] it's a deep reflection on the misery of
[01:34:55] death where John is looking into the
[01:34:57] grave and he is contemplating how
[01:35:00] horrible it is for uh a Christian person
[01:35:04] to die and to see his soul be removed
[01:35:06] from his body, which is what death is.
[01:35:08] It's the separation of the soul from the
[01:35:10] body. It no longer animates the body and
[01:35:12] it's lifeless. And and to see the body
[01:35:15] decay. And he says it happens to the
[01:35:17] rich and to the poor exactly the same
[01:35:19] way. All of the human, you know, uh
[01:35:25] differentiations that we make to honor
[01:35:27] the rich and to neglect the all gone.
[01:35:30] All gone. All normalized. all brought to
[01:35:32] the dust by death. By death. So,
[01:35:35] >> I I don't mean to belabor this, but I
[01:35:37] think it's important for us. It's
[01:35:38] important, of course, for the immediate
[01:35:40] family, for all of Charlie's close
[01:35:41] family and friends to take their time,
[01:35:44] not expect that they're going to be able
[01:35:46] to just bounce back instantaneously and
[01:35:48] get right back at Turning Point's work.
[01:35:51] No doubt
[01:35:52] they will eventually, but I hope that
[01:35:55] they'll take the time right now to pray,
[01:35:59] to mourn, uh to think deeply about the
[01:36:04] future, and about how they can honor
[01:36:06] Charlie's name. This is my hope.
[01:36:10] I I think that's such a profound thing
[01:36:12] to say and anyone who has been present
[01:36:14] at the death of loved ones I think can
[01:36:17] confirm that it's one of the most
[01:36:19] powerful and
[01:36:22] obviously crushingly sad but also
[01:36:24] beautiful and inspiring things. I mean
[01:36:26] it it absolutely changes you and it's
[01:36:29] hard to remain an atheist after
[01:36:30] something like that and we have been
[01:36:32] robbed of that experience. So what are
[01:36:34] the signs of hope that you see now?
[01:36:38] You know, uh, I would say before hope,
[01:36:44] the the sorrow of what has happened to
[01:36:46] Charlie is so illustrative of a descent
[01:36:49] into a level of violence that at least
[01:36:51] in my lifetime, and I'm I'm only two
[01:36:53] years older than you. I was born in '
[01:36:55] 67. I think you were born in ' 69.
[01:36:57] >> Yes.
[01:36:57] >> You're a San Franciscan. I'm a Angelino,
[01:37:00] born and raised in Los Angeles. I have
[01:37:03] never seen anything like this, Tucker. I
[01:37:05] have never seen anything like the
[01:37:06] violence that that exists today in our
[01:37:11] towns. When I grew up in in Pasadena, I
[01:37:14] as a young boy, I went walking to
[01:37:17] school. My mother let me stay out every
[01:37:19] night until the lights went on. When the
[01:37:21] lights went on, I had to be home for
[01:37:22] dinner. If I wasn't home for dinner, I
[01:37:24] was in trouble. But she had no worries.
[01:37:26] She had no worries.
[01:37:28] >> No. in in this last period 10-15 years
[01:37:31] especially violence has just absolutely
[01:37:34] exploded. You know Charlie reposed on
[01:37:38] the 10th of September. Of course the
[01:37:39] next day was the horrible re you know
[01:37:42] remembrance of 911. He died on 910. We
[01:37:45] have 911. This coming December is going
[01:37:49] to be the 10-year anniversary of the
[01:37:50] terrible terrorist attack right here in
[01:37:54] uh the Inland Empire, just 10 miles from
[01:37:57] where I where I am right now, when uh 14
[01:37:59] people were murdered and 22 people
[01:38:02] wounded by a Pakistani Muslim couple
[01:38:05] that thought that they would do
[01:38:07] something for Islam by shooting uh their
[01:38:09] co-workers. This is they were from a
[01:38:12] mosque one mile from me right now. that
[01:38:15] mosque already had two of their uh
[01:38:19] members in prison because of terrorist
[01:38:22] ambitions.
[01:38:23] My own parish just 4 months after that
[01:38:27] was visited in the middle of a Sunday
[01:38:29] liturgy by a group of u Muslim young men
[01:38:34] who thought it would be fun to bring
[01:38:36] bullhorns in the middle of our service
[01:38:38] and come outside the church and scream
[01:38:41] Allahu Akbar uh uh at our at our church.
[01:38:46] And then and this is of course Muslim
[01:38:50] terrorism. But now we also have this u
[01:38:53] rise of uh very very serious leftist
[01:38:55] violence and the whole country I think
[01:38:57] is reeling from the assassination
[01:39:00] attempts on our president and now an
[01:39:03] attack on on Charlie who wasn't a
[01:39:06] politician at all.
[01:39:07] >> So I would say that if we're going to
[01:39:09] look for hope it can't be fake. It can't
[01:39:12] be fake. We have to assess where we are.
[01:39:15] And violence has a spe as a sin.
[01:39:18] Violence has a very special serious
[01:39:21] place. You know, if you read the
[01:39:24] patriarchal histories in the opening
[01:39:25] books of the Bible, you read Genesis for
[01:39:28] instance, chapter 6, this is the account
[01:39:31] of God regretting that he had made the
[01:39:34] human race. What could the human being
[01:39:36] have possibly been doing to make God
[01:39:39] regret having made us? And the
[01:39:42] consequence, Moses tells us, is that he
[01:39:44] sent a worldwide universal flood. Yes,
[01:39:47] >> Moses articulated the reason the reason
[01:39:49] God did that and had to start over with
[01:39:51] Noah. And in fact, he made Noah a second
[01:39:53] Adam. He gave the same commission to
[01:39:55] Noah that he gave to Adam. Be fruitful
[01:39:56] and multiply, fill the earth, rule it
[01:39:58] and subdue it. Why did he do that? It
[01:40:01] says because the world had become full
[01:40:04] of violence.
[01:40:05] >> Yes.
[01:40:06] >> When you attack another man, when you
[01:40:08] attack another man, you attack God.
[01:40:11] Because every human being, as you were
[01:40:13] just saying so beautifully, is made in
[01:40:14] the image of God. And so to attack a
[01:40:17] human is a direct divine offense.
[01:40:20] Violence is extremely serious. I'm not
[01:40:22] surprised uh that we have this level of
[01:40:25] violence in a culture that murders
[01:40:27] unborn children at the rate that we do
[01:40:29] and have sustained it for the decades
[01:40:32] that we have.
[01:40:34] >> Yes.
[01:40:34] >> Really? Is is any violence surprising?
[01:40:39] >> Do we have do we have hope? That's what
[01:40:41] you asked me. So forgive me, but that's
[01:40:43] the background. That is how black it is.
[01:40:45] Yes,
[01:40:45] >> that is how black it is.
[01:40:48] >> Do we have hope and
[01:40:50] what's the future? I would say that from
[01:40:54] without a without a belief
[01:40:57] uh that God is merciful and that he
[01:41:00] loves the human race and that there's no
[01:41:03] sin so great that if we repent of it, he
[01:41:07] will not send his love and forgiveness.
[01:41:09] Without that belief, certainly we have
[01:41:11] no future. The statistics are horrible
[01:41:13] for our country. We are so captured uh
[01:41:16] by an ideology that is hopeless.
[01:41:19] Atheism, strict secularism, which is
[01:41:23] running our country now. It is extremely
[01:41:25] hopeless.
[01:41:25] >> Yes.
[01:41:26] >> And uh without a an a major
[01:41:29] reconsideration on the p part of our
[01:41:32] people, a return to classic American
[01:41:36] virtues, a recovery of Christian faith.
[01:41:40] Without that, certainly we're doomed.
[01:41:43] But we know we know from Christian
[01:41:46] history that repentance is possible. And
[01:41:50] it usually takes in a in a in a national
[01:41:52] sense. In a personal sense, it's up to
[01:41:54] us to repent and to believe. In a
[01:41:57] national sense, it takes leadership.
[01:41:59] Leadership that is willing to address
[01:42:01] the important things at the heart of n
[01:42:06] national catastrophe. And we have been
[01:42:08] living through national catastrophe. We
[01:42:11] have lost our faith in God. All of our
[01:42:12] institutions have been captured by by
[01:42:15] strict secularism. Our law is godless.
[01:42:20] Our in our our universities
[01:42:22] um exclude God.
[01:42:26] Our our our country is uh has gone down
[01:42:30] a very very serious deep hole. If we're
[01:42:34] going to get out, if we're going to have
[01:42:35] hope as a nation, we need leadership.
[01:42:37] Leadership in the likes of uh George
[01:42:40] Washington. I think our forebears, our
[01:42:43] forebears
[01:42:45] are ashamed. My grandparents and
[01:42:48] America, they're ashamed at where we
[01:42:50] are, Tucker. Uh as a nation, our
[01:42:52] relationship to faith, our our explicit
[01:42:55] commitment to God are excluding him from
[01:42:57] everything that's important in America.
[01:42:59] We have to repent. And we need someone,
[01:43:02] give us God, someone like a king David.
[01:43:04] Give us someone like my patron saint
[01:43:06] Josiah who was the last great king of
[01:43:09] Israel who himself lived at a terrible
[01:43:11] time. His father and his grandfather
[01:43:14] were both awful kings who had completely
[01:43:16] apostatized,
[01:43:18] abandoned the heritage of uh Israel, led
[01:43:22] the people to copy the pagan practices
[01:43:24] of the surrounding nations. And forgive
[01:43:25] me, we're way worse than pagans. I I
[01:43:28] always tell people, look, don't call the
[01:43:32] secular nonsense that's going on in
[01:43:33] America pagan. That's an insult to the
[01:43:35] pagans. The pagans believed in the
[01:43:38] divine order. They believed in the gods.
[01:43:41] Okay, we don't believe that there are
[01:43:43] gods. There is one god,
[01:43:45] but the pagans at least knew they were
[01:43:47] accountable to the divine order. They
[01:43:49] were accountable to the gods and that
[01:43:50] they had to live with respect to the
[01:43:52] wishes of the gods. to call America,
[01:43:55] which has no reference, most of our
[01:43:57] leaders make no reference to God at all.
[01:43:59] They they make they act as though they
[01:44:01] are not accountable to God's law. And I
[01:44:05] think that's far far worse than paganism
[01:44:07] and a full-blown insult to pagans to
[01:44:09] call it pagan. No, unless we have a
[01:44:10] leader who's going to address this. It
[01:44:13] needs to be addressed right directly. We
[01:44:16] need to repent and we need to recover
[01:44:19] our faith. If we do that, times of
[01:44:22] refreshing will come from from God. We
[01:44:26] couldn't we can be changed. A new day
[01:44:28] can arise, but it's not going to be with
[01:44:30] a little fix. It's not going to be with
[01:44:33] a a little something here or a little
[01:44:34] something there.
[01:44:36] I've never seen I I've been a priest for
[01:44:38] almost 33 years.
[01:44:41] I've never seen the
[01:44:45] radical interest in faith that we're
[01:44:48] seeing right now. Uh I'll tell you if I
[01:44:51] use my parish just as a little example,
[01:44:54] I have maybe I don't know little more
[01:44:56] than a thousand active parishioners that
[01:44:58] are here regularly.
[01:45:00] And all over the years of my ministry,
[01:45:02] I' I've catechized I've instructed and
[01:45:05] prepared people for baptism. you know,
[01:45:06] maybe 20, 30, 40. A really great year
[01:45:09] would be 40 people. I have over 200
[01:45:13] people in catechism right now. And this
[01:45:16] is happening all across the country.
[01:45:18] People are moving towards God, moving
[01:45:22] towards faith. If this continues and it
[01:45:24] translates into lives that are rooted,
[01:45:29] lives that are where faith is important,
[01:45:33] where true repentance has happened,
[01:45:36] where this quest for um just biological
[01:45:42] life as though that's somehow the sum
[01:45:44] total of value is rejected. You know, if
[01:45:47] you study the scriptures, there's three
[01:45:49] types of life that are described in
[01:45:51] scriptures. There's biological life. In
[01:45:53] Greek, it's called vio from where we get
[01:45:55] biological, right? There's the life of
[01:45:58] the soul. Many Americans don't even know
[01:46:00] that that exists. That's called siki.
[01:46:03] It's the life. It's the most noble part
[01:46:05] of you. Right? Even the Greek pagans to
[01:46:07] use this again knew that the body is
[01:46:09] like a chariot and the soul is like the
[01:46:11] charioteer.
[01:46:13] Leading the person in nobility said that
[01:46:15] the body does virtue. The body does
[01:46:17] something beautiful. Right? If you don't
[01:46:20] think you have siki, if you think you're
[01:46:22] just a body and you don't have a soul,
[01:46:24] which by the way is the worldview of the
[01:46:26] major tech titans of our country,
[01:46:30] this is why someone as noble as Elon
[01:46:33] Musk is becoming would stand up and
[01:46:36] speak to to the protesters in England
[01:46:39] when they were saying, "What can we do?
[01:46:40] What's our future?" And he said, "What?"
[01:46:42] He said, "Technology and AI." I promise
[01:46:46] you, Tucker, technology is not going to
[01:46:48] save us. No, it is not going to save us.
[01:46:51] And to say that is such is so hopeless.
[01:46:54] If we are soulless and we have greater
[01:46:57] technology, then the soulless are going
[01:46:58] to use that greater technology to
[01:47:00] oppress us.
[01:47:01] >> Of course,
[01:47:01] >> we need we need to affirm what all
[01:47:04] reasonable human beings in civilized
[01:47:06] countries except the modern nuts secular
[01:47:10] west. If we don't recognize that a human
[01:47:13] being is more than his body, he has more
[01:47:15] than vio more than biological life. He
[01:47:17] has the life of his soul.
[01:47:18] And then there's something that's most
[01:47:20] important which is eternal life. Aonia
[01:47:25] Zoe it's called in the scriptures
[01:47:27] eternal life. This is the life of God's
[01:47:29] kingdom. These are the three fundamental
[01:47:32] lives. Two of them we have stopped
[01:47:34] talking about for many decades and the
[01:47:36] consequences have been tragic.
[01:47:40] >> What a what a wonderful explanation. Um
[01:47:43] Charlie Kirk was very interested in
[01:47:45] orthodoxy as I'm I'm sure you know.
[01:47:48] Um he was and he was knowledgeable on it
[01:47:50] too. I'm not uh but I know that but I'm
[01:47:52] interested. But he was very interested
[01:47:54] in it. Um were you aware of that?
[01:47:58] >> He uh he he interviewed uh a friend of
[01:48:01] mine, Father John Strickland, who's a
[01:48:03] very respected Orthodox priest and a
[01:48:05] Russian scholar who's published
[01:48:06] extensively on Russian history. And
[01:48:08] Charlie was very interested in that. And
[01:48:11] I watched that interview and uh a few
[01:48:13] comments that he made afterwards in
[01:48:15] which he actually got very much into the
[01:48:19] mind of of us Orthodox Christians and
[01:48:22] explained why so many people are
[01:48:24] converting to holy orthodoxy. And I
[01:48:26] thought actually he was spoton very much
[01:48:29] spot on. He said people are becoming
[01:48:31] orthodox because they want something
[01:48:33] that is time-tested. They want something
[01:48:35] that's substantial. They want something
[01:48:36] that actually informs culture. something
[01:48:39] that isn't just a play thing uh and can
[01:48:42] be categorized over just here or
[01:48:43] orthodox Christian traditional
[01:48:45] Christianity in general. It is a
[01:48:47] lifestyle. It is it impacts everything
[01:48:50] because Christ is king and he's o he's
[01:48:53] king over every aspect of our life and
[01:48:56] over civilization. This is common
[01:48:58] knowledge. Uh Europe, of course, you
[01:49:01] take a train through Europe. Every town
[01:49:03] you go through, you're going to go
[01:49:05] through a town that has the best land
[01:49:07] given to the church. And the church is
[01:49:09] going to be the highest building because
[01:49:10] everyone knew if you don't enthrone
[01:49:13] worship at the center of your community,
[01:49:16] if you don't make the heavenly
[01:49:17] attachment to your earthly life, you're
[01:49:19] you're robbing yourself of significance
[01:49:21] and you're trivializing yourself to just
[01:49:24] be limited to time.
[01:49:26] The best thing that can happen in
[01:49:28] America is that people go to church,
[01:49:31] root themselves in the one holy catholic
[01:49:32] and apostolic church because the river
[01:49:34] of life comes from the altar out the
[01:49:36] doors of the church and vivifies
[01:49:38] society. And do we ever need to be
[01:49:41] vivified today?
[01:49:43] >> Beautiful. Father, thank you. And and
[01:49:46] before you go, I'm going to I'm going to
[01:49:48] spell your name for anyone who's made it
[01:49:50] to the end of this. I never do this, but
[01:49:52] I think what you said is is so wonderful
[01:49:54] that I know that people are going to
[01:49:55] want to follow up. Uh J O S I Ah,
[01:50:00] Trenum, T renh,
[01:50:03] senior pastor and director uh of your
[01:50:05] church. So I I know that people will
[01:50:08] want to know more about you and now they
[01:50:11] can. So thanks very much for joining us.
[01:50:13] I appreciate it.
[01:50:14] >> Keep going, doctor. Keep going.
[01:50:16] >> Thank you very much. Well, we're gonna
[01:50:19] >> and and we're gonna we will keep going.
[01:50:22] We'll see if this format works. I kind
[01:50:23] of like it. Thanks a lot for joining us
[01:50:26] for an hour and 50 minutes. We'll be
[01:50:28] back soon.
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