From Screen to Stage: Kramer/Fauci

[00:00:00] Dr. Tony Fouchy, director of the [00:00:02] National Institute of Allergy and [00:00:03] Infectious Diseases, uh, at NIH, [00:00:06] President Clinton, as part of World AIDS [00:00:08] Day, announced a new task force that [00:00:10] will be underway to help deal with the [00:00:11] AIDS issue. What will it mean? Well, the [00:00:14] purpose of the task force is to bring [00:00:17] government, industry, academia, and the [00:00:21] community advocacy groups and and [00:00:23] activist groups together to form a task [00:00:25] force to determine if there are any [00:00:28] identifiable obstacles in the way of [00:00:30] drug development for HIV and its [00:00:32] complications and if so, uh, to [00:00:34] determine what means can be brought [00:00:37] forth to overcome those obstacles. And [00:00:39] it it's at the very highest level. It's [00:00:41] chaired by the assistant secretary for [00:00:42] health. Reports directly to Secretary [00:00:45] Shala who clearly has the ear of the [00:00:47] president. So this is a very high level [00:00:49] task force for the major purpose of [00:00:51] seeing is there anything that we can do [00:00:53] something about that's in the way of the [00:00:56] expedited development of drugs. The [00:00:58] group ACT UP issued a news release and [00:00:59] said quote Clinton has backtracked or [00:01:01] betrayed every one of his campaign [00:01:03] commitments. We cannot afford four more [00:01:05] years of lip service on the issue of [00:01:06] AIDS. [00:01:08] >> Any reaction? Yeah, I mean that's that's [00:01:10] expected. I I I think an activist group [00:01:13] like ACTUP, which in fact has um made [00:01:16] positive contributions to to raising [00:01:18] awareness on certain important issues [00:01:20] and even pushing for for constructive [00:01:23] changes, have to take the tact that they [00:01:25] will assume that something like this is [00:01:28] essentially just slip service. But I [00:01:29] don't think it's going to be and I think [00:01:31] that the proof of the pudding is going [00:01:32] to see what what the results are. So, I [00:01:35] mean, this is not uh um really uh um [00:01:39] it's to be expected to have that kind of [00:01:41] reaction. [00:01:42] >> A leading AIDS activist, Larry Kramer, [00:01:44] is joining us from New York. Mr. Kramer, [00:01:45] what's your reaction to today's [00:01:47] developments in Washington? [00:01:49] >> Uh first, may I say I'm operating here [00:01:51] under very primitive conditions. I can't [00:01:53] see you and I can't hear you very well [00:01:56] and this earpiece is not uh is circa [00:01:59] 1920. [00:02:00] Um [00:02:02] my reaction is hopeful yet weary. Uh [00:02:06] another task force is just another task [00:02:10] force. And the way the mandate is was [00:02:12] worded uh we already know the answers. [00:02:15] We already know what's holding all the [00:02:17] things that are the stumbling blocks [00:02:19] that are keeping us from from developing [00:02:21] new drugs. And this is a task force to [00:02:23] identify what the stumbling blocks are. [00:02:25] We know what they are. a lot of [00:02:26] bureaucracy, a lot of red tape, a lot of [00:02:28] stupid laws by Congress, and a lot of [00:02:31] idiots uh putting their two cents worth. [00:02:35] Uh uh how are you going to get rid of [00:02:37] all of these things is what I want to [00:02:38] know. And I have yet to hear a task [00:02:40] force formed to tell me that. [00:02:42] >> What are your solutions? [00:02:44] My solutions are that we have that [00:02:47] President Clinton has to de has to [00:02:50] declare emergency powers and and and and [00:02:53] a great deal of authority and power has [00:02:55] to be vested in a general like Schwarzko [00:02:58] was at Desert Storm. Whether that [00:02:59] general would be Tony or someone like [00:03:03] David Baltimore or somebody like [00:03:05] Varmmas, but somebody has got to be [00:03:07] given the power. Tony knows what to do. [00:03:09] His hands are just tied behind him and [00:03:11] his feet. Every time Tony wants to go to [00:03:13] the toilet, 10 committees have to vote [00:03:14] about giving him permission. That's what [00:03:16] the That's why there's not a cure for [00:03:18] anything. The NIH is is a cesspool of [00:03:21] bureaucracy because Congress is has tied [00:03:24] it at at at every at every turn. And you [00:03:27] have monsters like Representative Dingle [00:03:29] or Senator Dingle or whatever he's [00:03:32] called and and people like Ted Ted [00:03:34] Kennedy who have emasculated uh and [00:03:36] taken away every bit of power that that [00:03:38] Tony Fouchy has. [00:03:40] >> Dr. Fouchy, you have been at NIH since [00:03:42] 1984. Compare the funding during the [00:03:44] Reagan years in the Bush years to what [00:03:47] you have now in AIDS research in the [00:03:48] Clinton administration. [00:03:49] >> It's about spending the money properly, [00:03:52] putting somebody in charge. I don't want [00:03:55] another dime. If somebody with a brain [00:03:57] was there right now to to to supervise [00:03:59] how it was spent, you'd get a lot more [00:04:02] bang for the buck. I [00:04:03] >> I understand that. What I want to do is [00:04:05] I want to get a comparison though is the [00:04:06] amount of money that was spent back in [00:04:08] '84. Let's let's compare the number of [00:04:10] cases now with the cases under Reagan [00:04:12] and Bush. There are 1 billion people [00:04:14] worldwide according to the Harvard AIDS [00:04:16] Institute that are facing death by the [00:04:19] year 2000. There are 5,000 new people [00:04:22] infected every single day. Those figures [00:04:26] did not exist during the Reagan years [00:04:28] and they did not exist during the Bush [00:04:30] years. And we have the third president [00:04:32] in a row who is sanctioning intentional [00:04:35] genocide. this president is all talk, no [00:04:37] action, and is a big wuss. [00:04:39] >> Dr. Fouchy, well, the question you asked [00:04:42] me was about the the AIDS funding. Uh, [00:04:44] and I'll just specifically answer that [00:04:46] question. If you look at the curve of [00:04:48] the funding, there was an exponential [00:04:50] increase during the early mid 80 years [00:04:53] of the epidemic that really went up 100% [00:04:57] sometimes 200% from one year to another. [00:04:59] Then over the pre the past three years [00:05:01] or so, we've seen a plateauing of of [00:05:05] resources for AIDS on the basis of [00:05:07] resources that have come to the NIH for [00:05:09] research that was barely inflation or a [00:05:12] little bit above inflation. The first [00:05:14] budget that uh President Clinton put [00:05:16] through from the 1994 budget. The change [00:05:19] from 1993 for the NIH was a 21% [00:05:23] increase, which was a major increase to [00:05:25] the point where the NIH's budget now [00:05:27] 12.2% 2% of it is AIDS research. So [00:05:30] we've seen an exponential increase [00:05:32] during the mid 80s towards the end of [00:05:33] the 80s, a plateauing over the past few [00:05:36] years, and now a big jump uh with the [00:05:38] new administration. [00:05:39] >> We want to show you part of the news [00:05:40] conference that was held here in [00:05:41] Washington beginning with uh a segment [00:05:44] that included some reaction from the [00:05:46] ACTUP group. Uh this news conference [00:05:48] again with Secretary Shala and [00:05:50] representatives of the Merc [00:05:51] Pharmaceutical Company about a new AIDS [00:05:53] task force. [00:05:56] One final just smoke and mirrors [00:05:59] approach to the AIDS epidemic. We've had [00:06:01] two national commissions on AIDS. We [00:06:03] have three national commission reports [00:06:04] that are still gathering dust. And now [00:06:06] you're going around just creating [00:06:07] another task force. Where's the [00:06:09] Manhattan style project to find the cure [00:06:11] that Bill Clinton promised during the [00:06:13] election? Clinton bashed Bush for not [00:06:15] implementing those national commission [00:06:17] reports and they're still gathering dust [00:06:19] and you're creating another task force. [00:06:21] Where's the action? Time to act. I think [00:06:25] that uh we see this as an action um uh [00:06:28] as an action item and uh we have [00:06:31] implemented uh a number of the [00:06:33] recommendations of the national [00:06:35] commissions and we see this task force [00:06:38] as in fact uh taking action to both [00:06:41] identify and move quickly to eliminate [00:06:43] any barriers that would stand in the way [00:06:45] of of any kind of applications. And it's [00:06:48] it's one other step along with [00:06:50] increasing the size of uh of our [00:06:53] research commitment, significant [00:06:54] increases in the Ryan White money um and [00:06:58] increases uh um in other areas uh in the [00:07:01] department. [00:07:03] >> Larry Kramer in New York. Is this a step [00:07:05] in eliminating those barriers that [00:07:07] Secretary Shala talked about? [00:07:09] I'm sitting here and I'm listening to [00:07:11] everybody talk such gobblede-dog. Why is [00:07:14] everybody being so polite? We're in the [00:07:16] middle of a plague. Uh Tony is got his [00:07:20] bureaucratic suit on instead of his [00:07:22] humanitarian doctor's suit on. And I [00:07:25] think we have to talk about how people [00:07:28] learn how to be Judeo-Christians again [00:07:31] and and save one billion people from [00:07:34] death. forming a task force with 15 new [00:07:38] people that is not going to meet until [00:07:41] March, April of next year. Uh taking [00:07:44] Tony's balls away so that he no longer [00:07:46] is in charge of AIDS research and is [00:07:48] replaced by another bureaucratic AIDS [00:07:51] research office which won't get going [00:07:54] for another two years is not the way to [00:07:57] end a plague. [00:07:58] >> Let me bring your attention to a New [00:08:00] York Times magazine article which I'm [00:08:02] sure you both saw, Mr. Kramer and uh Dr. [00:08:04] Kramer and Mr. Dr. Fouchy, I should say. [00:08:07] Mr. Kramer, let me read you a portion of [00:08:09] it. Once AIDS was a hot topic in [00:08:10] America, promising treatment on the [00:08:12] horizon. Intense media interest, a [00:08:14] political battlefield. Now, 12 years [00:08:16] after it was first recognized as a new [00:08:18] disease, AIDS has become normalized part [00:08:20] of the landscape, Eric Kramer. Is that [00:08:23] what you're talking about? [00:08:25] >> I don't think it's normalized. I don't [00:08:27] think anybody gives a damn about it. [00:08:29] It's going to be like the savings and [00:08:30] loan that by the time they wake up, it's [00:08:32] going to cost this country a hundred [00:08:34] times more to to cure it than if they [00:08:36] took care of it now. [00:08:38] >> Yeah. Uh Larry and I have had [00:08:41] conversations about this many many times [00:08:43] over the years and I appreciate in many [00:08:46] respects admire the the rage that he has [00:08:49] about a very very difficult problem. But [00:08:52] I think you have to [00:08:53] >> if you start that business about science [00:08:55] isn't done that way. I'm going to come [00:08:57] down there and slap your face. All [00:08:58] right, Larry, hang on for a second. I [00:09:01] love you, Larry. [00:09:03] The fact is that the real solutions will [00:09:06] in fact come from the science. And in [00:09:08] some respects, you may be able to push [00:09:11] it along. And Larry and others have the [00:09:13] idea perhaps a Manhattan Project [00:09:14] approach would be the right approach. [00:09:16] Others feel that you'd have to stick [00:09:18] more to the basic science because it [00:09:20] >> doesn't have to be either or. [00:09:21] >> No, no, no. It doesn't. It doesn't, [00:09:22] Larry. There could be combinations of of [00:09:24] of the above. But I want to stick with [00:09:26] the topic because what when we were [00:09:28] discussing about what the administration [00:09:31] had just done before you you immediately [00:09:34] jump and say this is gobbledygook or [00:09:36] what have you. The fact is Larry you [00:09:38] know that if in fact they didn't take [00:09:41] this initiative of at least extending [00:09:42] themselves and saying what is if there [00:09:45] are obstacles can we identify them and [00:09:47] do something about it you would be the [00:09:49] first one that would be throwing slings [00:09:51] at that. I know that because we've [00:09:52] discussed it. So I I I don't understand [00:09:54] why why we're we're blasting it a couple [00:09:57] of hours after it was put forth. Why [00:10:00] don't you give the the task force [00:10:02] secretary Shala and the president a [00:10:04] chance because they haven't earned it [00:10:06] and they don't deserve it and Donna do [00:10:09] nothing shala is a joke. Does I mean [00:10:11] they really shouldn't field her when she [00:10:13] starts talking about health. You know [00:10:14] she knows nothing about health. I have [00:10:16] faith in you Tony. I have faith in David [00:10:18] Kesler. I have faith in in in Harold [00:10:21] Varmmas whom I who has made a very good [00:10:23] impression on me. I I want you three [00:10:26] guys to run with it. I don't want you to [00:10:28] have to deal with the John Dingles and [00:10:30] the Ted Kennedys and and and 8,000 [00:10:33] committees that have to have to have to [00:10:35] vote every time you want to do [00:10:37] something. Emergency powers are [00:10:39] required. Why is that so difficult? [00:10:42] their emergency powers for lots of other [00:10:44] things that aren't nearly so end of the [00:10:47] world threatening as AIDS is. [00:10:49] >> Dr. Fouch, we want to get your reaction. [00:10:50] We also want to let her know that uh we [00:10:52] want to hear from our viewers. We'll [00:10:53] show the number on the bottom of your [00:10:54] screen. [00:10:55] >> I guess what I'm talking about is I have [00:10:58] nothing against another task force. I I [00:11:00] think David Kesler is one of the true [00:11:02] heroes of all of this. And David Kesler [00:11:04] who is the one who had the idea for for [00:11:06] for for this new this new approach to [00:11:09] drugs. And if David wants to fly [00:11:10] something, hey, go with it. But what one [00:11:13] never feels anywhere anywhere in 13 [00:11:17] frigin years of this is a sense of [00:11:20] urgency. Urgency. Urgency. Why can't [00:11:23] things be done faster? Tony, I'll give [00:11:25] you a good case and point. There are two [00:11:27] treatments out there that are extremely [00:11:30] promising, more than promising. We can't [00:11:32] get our hands on them. You're testing [00:11:34] one of them right now. You're testing [00:11:35] both of them. Why does it take so long? [00:11:37] You've been testing IL2 for 2 years. The [00:11:40] merc produce inhibitor has been in [00:11:42] studies for two years, in 10 people, 20 [00:11:44] people. Why isn't it done in 5,000 [00:11:46] people, in 10,000 people? We have [00:11:48] willing guinea pigs out there to get you [00:11:50] your answers faster. Everything is [00:11:53] business as usual. You've got a plague. [00:11:56] You do not have an ordinary disease. [00:11:59] 5,000 people are being infected newly [00:12:02] every day. How dare you only test a [00:12:04] promising treatment on 20 people for two [00:12:07] years? [00:12:08] >> Dr. Fouchy. [00:12:09] >> Well, a lot of a lot of questions Larry [00:12:11] brought up with regard to the specific [00:12:13] treatment he's he's talking about. These [00:12:15] are experimental therapies. One of them [00:12:17] is is interlucan 2 or IL2, which we're [00:12:19] giving to people to see if we can boost [00:12:20] their immune system. So far, it looks [00:12:23] like the immune system could be boosted. [00:12:24] What we don't know for sure is what the [00:12:27] long range, if any, toxic effects are as [00:12:30] well as whether or not this is going to [00:12:31] have a truly relevant clinical effect. [00:12:34] And I must remind Larry that in fact [00:12:37] things do over the past several years [00:12:39] have moved along very quickly in in the [00:12:41] drug development. The problem is we [00:12:43] don't have very good drugs. It isn't as [00:12:45] if we have a really good drug here that [00:12:47] we're delaying. We don't really have [00:12:49] good drugs. And that's one of the sad [00:12:51] facts of a very perplexing and [00:12:53] scientifically very problematic [00:12:55] situation with HIV. [00:12:56] >> Larry Kramer, before we get to our [00:12:58] calls, why do you think that there is no [00:13:00] sense of urgency in Washington for this [00:13:02] issue? [00:13:03] >> You asking me that question with a [00:13:05] straight face? [00:13:05] >> Yes. [00:13:06] >> We're in the 13th year of a plague. When [00:13:08] I first started getting involved, there [00:13:10] were 41 cases. They're now facing a [00:13:12] billion. And you're telling me it's [00:13:14] being faced with urgency? [00:13:15] >> No. No. I'm saying, why do you think [00:13:16] there is no sense? Why do you think [00:13:18] there is no sense of urgency in [00:13:20] Washington to deal with this issue? [00:13:21] What's the problem? [00:13:22] >> Because they're not dealing with it. [00:13:23] What do you see that's being dealt with? [00:13:25] Another task force. [00:13:26] >> But why? [00:13:27] >> Why? Because this disease is happening [00:13:29] to to spicks, junkies, [00:13:32] uh, and hookers. That's why. [00:13:35] >> Onto our phone calls. Naples, Florida. [00:13:37] You're our first caller. Good evening. [00:13:39] >> Yes. Hi. Um, you know, we can't cure the [00:13:42] common cold. What makes Mr. Kramer think [00:13:45] we can cure AIDS overnight or in 13 [00:13:48] years for that matter? [00:13:49] >> I will tell you there would be a cure [00:13:51] for the common cold if it weren't so [00:13:53] hard to research anything in this [00:13:55] country. And after 13 years of being [00:13:58] involved with the bureaucracy at the at [00:14:00] the Health and Human Services level and [00:14:02] at the at the National Institutes of [00:14:04] Health level, I am here to tell you I [00:14:06] know exactly why there's not a cure for [00:14:08] anything, including the common cold. And [00:14:10] if you knew more what you were talking [00:14:11] about, you would see it, too. Baton [00:14:13] Rouge, Louisiana, you're next. [00:14:15] >> Uh, yes. I was just listening to Mr. [00:14:18] Kramer and if we are in the middle of [00:14:20] this plague and drastic measures are [00:14:24] called for, [00:14:27] wouldn't it make more sense if we could [00:14:29] find some way to find the people with [00:14:31] this disease when they're tested and [00:14:32] found positive, have them isolated in [00:14:35] the sanitariums, something like we used [00:14:36] to do with tuberculosis, [00:14:39] protect the general public. If this if [00:14:42] this is a a plague. [00:14:44] >> Yeah, Larry, I'll get you. [00:14:46] >> I don't I don't want to get into this. I [00:14:48] am a member of the general public just [00:14:50] like this man is a member of the general [00:14:51] public. [00:14:52] >> I think Dr. Fouchy hook I resent the [00:14:54] question, but I'm I'm only interested in [00:14:56] the research. I'm not interested in [00:14:58] getting into the whole issue of testing. [00:14:59] It's it's it's a terrible idea uh from a [00:15:03] public health standpoint or any [00:15:04] standpoint to to isolate people who are [00:15:07] HIV infected and think that you can [00:15:09] protect the general public by putting [00:15:12] people into forced isolation. I mean [00:15:14] there is absolutely no question about [00:15:16] that. If you have a disease that's [00:15:18] spread by respiratory spread where you [00:15:21] sneeze on somebody and you can impart [00:15:23] upon them a lethal disease that's a [00:15:24] different story. But a disease that's [00:15:26] transmitted by sex, by by drugs, by drug [00:15:30] use with the introvenous uh drug use or [00:15:32] by blood and blood products. The answer [00:15:35] is not to sequester and quarantine [00:15:38] people. That is very bad public health [00:15:40] idea. Not to mention ethical and moral [00:15:41] and a few other things. [00:15:43] >> Dr. Fouchy is originally from Brooklyn, [00:15:44] New York. Where'd you go to school? [00:15:46] >> Uh you know, I went to Holy Cross [00:15:49] College in Cornell Medical School. [00:15:51] >> Larry Kramer, what about yourself? What [00:15:53] can you tell us [00:15:54] >> about myself? [00:15:56] >> I'm sorry. [00:15:56] >> Where'd you go to school, Larry? [00:15:58] >> Where did I go to school? [00:15:58] >> Tell our viewers a little bit about who [00:16:00] Larry Kramer is. [00:16:01] >> I'm so It's been so long ago. I was [00:16:03] another lifetime. I went to Yale. I grew [00:16:04] up in Bridgeport, Connecticut. I grew up [00:16:06] in Washington DC, where my father worked [00:16:09] for the government under Franklin D. [00:16:11] Roosevelt. I was assistant to the [00:16:13] president of two film companies, both [00:16:15] United Artists in Colombia. I went out [00:16:17] and became a film producer. I have an [00:16:19] Academy Award nomination. I have a bunch [00:16:22] of awards for my plays. My my novel [00:16:24] is still in print. I've done a [00:16:26] million things and my whole life is [00:16:28] devoted right now to trying to save it [00:16:31] and others as well. And the last 13 [00:16:34] years are like a different a different [00:16:37] world, a different chapter. I don't [00:16:38] remember the earlier part of my life [00:16:40] anymore. And I guess if I had to be [00:16:42] asked what's the main thing I've learned [00:16:43] in the last 12 years, it's how really [00:16:47] shitty people can be to each other and [00:16:49] how awful the human race is when you're [00:16:51] not a straight white uh rich man. Um and [00:16:56] that uh everybody else is pretty much [00:16:59] and can be pretty much allowed to die. I [00:17:02] have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that [00:17:04] this is intentional genocide of specific [00:17:07] populations of people and that the third [00:17:10] president in a row is not only [00:17:12] participating in it, he is sanctioning [00:17:14] it. [00:17:15] >> Prescott, Arizona, you're next. [00:17:17] >> Yes. Uh for Dr. Fouchy, the work that's [00:17:19] been done by uh Dr. uh Robert Root [00:17:22] Bernstein talking about the relationship [00:17:24] between HIV and AIDS being very specious [00:17:27] and not direct and causal and also the [00:17:29] work done by I think it's uh Dr. Dr. [00:17:31] Dooberg at Berkeley and UCLA. Could you [00:17:33] comment on whether or not there's a [00:17:35] strong scientific or clinical linkage [00:17:38] between HIV and the disease? And why why [00:17:40] are these people who come forward and [00:17:42] say that CDC and NIH are incorrectly [00:17:45] have incorrectly identified the cause of [00:17:47] the disease? Why is their funding cut [00:17:49] and other people who keep saying no it [00:17:51] is this their funding is increased? [00:17:53] Well, [00:17:54] >> first of all, the scientific [00:17:56] epidemiologic and scientific data [00:17:58] linking HIV to AIDS is overwhelming. [00:18:02] You're going to have a couple of people [00:18:04] who who disagree with that and disagree [00:18:06] with anything. But for example, Drs. [00:18:09] Dooberg and Drs. Root Bernstein to to to [00:18:11] some extent would say that AIDS, the [00:18:14] disease, the illness is caused by a [00:18:17] homosexual behavior and aarent behavior [00:18:20] on the part of IV drug users. That is [00:18:23] totally preposterous to say that [00:18:26] behavior is causing a disease. The link [00:18:29] between the virus and AIDS is just [00:18:32] overwhelming uh in its evidence. We [00:18:35] don't understand every precise thing [00:18:38] about how the virus works and about how [00:18:40] the virus destroys the body's immune [00:18:42] system, but we don't understand a lot [00:18:45] about microbes that cause a lot of other [00:18:48] diseases. But the link between HIV and [00:18:51] AIDS is incontrovertible. And it's [00:18:53] unfortunate that people particularly [00:18:56] people who are HIV infected uh have the [00:19:00] cruel situation of where the confusion [00:19:02] is put into an already difficult [00:19:04] situation for them by having people [00:19:06] preach that in fact the virus is not [00:19:08] causing their illness, but they're sick [00:19:10] because they did something bad like a [00:19:13] behavior. That is a shame. Larry Kramer, [00:19:15] any reaction? [00:19:17] I think Tony answered it very well. Um, [00:19:21] there's so many battles that we've had [00:19:24] to fight along the way that that the [00:19:26] energy that's required to deal with the [00:19:30] scientific crazies and the religious [00:19:32] bigots and the dumb parents who don't [00:19:34] allow condoms and sex education in the [00:19:37] schools. All of which are just red [00:19:39] herrings that keep us from getting on [00:19:41] with ending a plague and take the energy [00:19:44] of of people like myself and Tony and [00:19:46] and and other AIDS fighters away from [00:19:49] the main important thing. It is just [00:19:52] mindboggling. [00:19:53] >> Houston, you're next. [00:19:55] >> Hi, I would like to address my comments [00:19:58] to Larry. I'd like to ask you, aren't [00:20:02] you satisfied with having infected our [00:20:05] blood supply with the AIDS virus? You've [00:20:09] torn down all of our bathous, our [00:20:12] jacuzzi's. You have taken our money. [00:20:16] You've given our country a black count [00:20:18] cloud. You still have the freedom to [00:20:21] spread the disease. [00:20:24] >> Mr. Kramer, any reaction to that caller? [00:20:27] I won't dignify it by a response. [00:20:30] >> Park City, Illinois. [00:20:32] >> Yes. Hello. I, you know, listening to [00:20:34] some of the folks who've called in [00:20:35] previously, uh, you know, I can't [00:20:37] understand why, for example, America [00:20:40] does not believe someone like Larry [00:20:42] Kramer. For example, uh, in my case, [00:20:46] I've known 45, 50 people who've died of [00:20:49] AIDS. Larry Kramer has to have known [00:20:52] hundred or more people who have died of [00:20:54] AIDS. And and this is this is what's [00:20:57] happening in the United States and and [00:20:59] all around the world literally in in [00:21:02] other countries of the world in Africa. [00:21:04] Whole neighborhoods, whole cities, [00:21:06] people are dying. And and Larry Kramer, [00:21:10] God bless you, Larry, you stand up there [00:21:13] and you say, "What is the truth?" And [00:21:17] Bill the Welchure Clinton did nothing to [00:21:21] ad advance what has been trying to [00:21:23] happen here. Get on the cure. Start it. [00:21:26] Get the AIDS ZAR out there. Let's end [00:21:29] this disease. End it fast. [00:21:32] >> Thanks very much, Larry Kramer. [00:21:37] >> That's the kind of energy that keeps me [00:21:39] going. When I hear people like your [00:21:41] previous caller, I sometimes just want [00:21:44] to throw in the sponge and and go my [00:21:47] house in the country and hide. But then [00:21:50] I hear people like the last caller and I [00:21:52] get support from him and and um and and [00:21:56] and I get support from people like Tony [00:21:59] who who moves me enormously because he [00:22:01] has to fight different fights than I'll [00:22:04] ever have to fight. And we we keep [00:22:06] going. We try. That's all we can do. [00:22:08] >> If you want to read more about both of [00:22:10] our guests, this is a picture that's [00:22:12] part of a rather extensive article in [00:22:14] the Sunday edition of the New York Times [00:22:16] magazine. Larry Kramer, what can you [00:22:17] tell us about the author of this [00:22:19] article? [00:22:20] >> Jeffrey Schmaltz was a [00:22:24] uh a top reporter for the New York Times [00:22:27] who discovered he had AIDS one day by [00:22:31] walk he he collapsed in the newsroom. [00:22:33] He'd never been tested. He didn't know [00:22:34] he was sick. And one day he just [00:22:36] collapsed. They rushed him to the [00:22:38] hospital and discovered that he had very [00:22:40] few tea cells left and probably only had [00:22:43] at the most three or four months left to [00:22:45] live. And somehow he lived for a number [00:22:48] of years after that and he became the [00:22:50] best AIDS reporter. Um, one of the best [00:22:53] this country has ever had. Certainly the [00:22:55] best the New York Times has ever had, [00:22:58] which unfortunately is not saying very [00:22:59] much because the New York Times probably [00:23:01] has the worst AIDS coverage of any [00:23:02] newspaper in the world. But Jeffrey was [00:23:05] a shining light for them. and he wrote a [00:23:07] series of magnificent articles about not [00:23:11] only [00:23:12] his own personal experiences but about [00:23:15] what this government is not doing. And [00:23:17] he had the ability to say it in a calm, [00:23:22] dispassionate way that would please the [00:23:25] Times readers a little bit more than my [00:23:28] um tone would allow me to reach them. [00:23:31] And uh he died uh just this November [00:23:35] 6th, I believe. was not too long ago and [00:23:37] and uh before this article that he had [00:23:40] been working on at his death. And God, [00:23:42] we are going to miss him. Uh I pray I [00:23:46] pray that that those dumb men who edit [00:23:49] the New York Times, those dumb evil men [00:23:52] who edit the New York Times will somehow [00:23:54] realize that they have got to get [00:23:57] reporters like Jeff to get this story [00:24:00] out there. [00:24:00] >> I want to go back to the calls. Let me [00:24:02] read you one po part of this article. Uh [00:24:05] he says that there is a phrase that I [00:24:07] want shouted at my funeral and written [00:24:08] on my memorial cards. That phrase is [00:24:11] whatever happened to AIDS. Dr. Fouchy. [00:24:14] Well, I I think what Jeffree is [00:24:15] referring to is the fact that the [00:24:17] attention span of the general public for [00:24:21] something even as devastating as AIDS is [00:24:24] really very short. There are little [00:24:25] blips on the radar screen for most [00:24:27] people. You have people like Larry and [00:24:30] Larry's friends and myself and my [00:24:32] colleagues who live with it every single [00:24:34] day. You don't have to ask that [00:24:36] question, whatever happened to AIDS? But [00:24:38] if you look at the broad general public, [00:24:40] when they keep hearing about things that [00:24:42] they don't perceive directly affects [00:24:45] them, uh they tend to generally forget [00:24:48] about it. And I think it isn't too [00:24:50] difficult to demonstrate that by people [00:24:51] who you talk to who haven't been touched [00:24:53] by AIDS. And that's the thing that [00:24:55] really tortured Jeff very very much [00:24:58] because he was so much involved not only [00:25:00] as a patient or a person with AIDS but [00:25:03] because of his intense interest in his [00:25:05] writing and he was very frustrated by [00:25:07] what he perceived was a waning of [00:25:10] interest because of the fact that this [00:25:12] is something that constantly bombards [00:25:14] the general public. So he was right on [00:25:16] in that statement. [00:25:17] >> Thanks for waiting. San Jose, you're [00:25:19] next. [00:25:20] >> Uh thank you. Uh I'm really surprised [00:25:22] that more people are not outraged at the [00:25:25] government's lack of uh effort to do [00:25:28] something about the problem like the [00:25:30] Vietnam War. The the AIDS epidemic is [00:25:33] now at the point where it is touching [00:25:35] almost everybody's lives. Uh I cannot [00:25:38] think of anybody who does not know [00:25:39] somebody who's either got AIDS or is in [00:25:43] the process of being tested or just died [00:25:45] of AIDS. It's an outrage. I agree that [00:25:47] there should be some extra legal powers [00:25:49] for them to go ahead and test drugs and [00:25:52] and if I had AIDS and I and I don't and [00:25:54] I'm not a high-risisk person and if I [00:25:57] learned that I had it I could care less [00:25:58] how many other tests I have not run if [00:26:00] there's a chance it might help me I'd [00:26:02] want it. [00:26:02] >> Thanks very much Larry Kramer. [00:26:06] >> Uh [00:26:08] what would you like me to talk about? [00:26:10] >> Let let me ask you how many people have [00:26:11] died of AIDS in the last 12 years? [00:26:14] >> How many totally? [00:26:15] >> Yes. Oh, I don't know. The numbers game [00:26:17] >> in the United States is 200,000. [00:26:19] >> The numbers game is just become so so [00:26:22] ridiculous. How many does it take before [00:26:24] people pay attention? I mean, what [00:26:26] number does it take before a president [00:26:29] does something? You know, is it 10? Is [00:26:31] it a 100? Is it 5,000? Is it a million? [00:26:34] Is it does it have to be a hundred [00:26:35] million? I mean, that's the trouble with [00:26:37] playing the numbers game. How many does [00:26:38] it take before you get up and do [00:26:40] something? Bill and Hillary, [00:26:43] >> Dr. Fouchy. Uh [00:26:46] I I think one of the things that's very [00:26:48] difficult to appreciate particularly [00:26:49] when you're in the middle of it is what [00:26:51] in fact is being done and sometimes [00:26:54] things that you assume can be done in [00:26:57] fact [00:26:57] >> if you say more has been learned about [00:27:00] this virus than any virus in the history [00:27:02] of mankind. I'm going to come down [00:27:04] there. [00:27:04] >> I know Larry that's why I'm not going to [00:27:06] say it. I'm afraid you're going to come [00:27:07] down here. [00:27:08] >> I assume you have said this before [00:27:09] during past panels and that's why he [00:27:11] keeps referring to that. Well, Larry and [00:27:13] I know each other a long time and we're [00:27:14] very good friends and and we agree on a [00:27:16] lot of things and and we disagree on [00:27:18] some things and and it comes down to I [00:27:21] think something that we have agreed to [00:27:23] disagree on and that is an [00:27:27] >> is an understanding that there [00:27:29] perception of yes there is something [00:27:32] that we're not doing that we can do that [00:27:34] will really make the difference. In [00:27:36] fact, there are things certainly that [00:27:38] you can identify that you can do better. [00:27:40] But many callers, and we hear this all [00:27:42] the time, would say, "Gee, if only the [00:27:44] government did this, we'd get the [00:27:46] answer." It isn't as straightforward and [00:27:48] simple as that. If it were, don't you [00:27:51] think it would have been done, Elizabeth [00:27:53] City? [00:27:53] >> I do. And I'm going to break in right [00:27:55] here and say, Tony, all of that is [00:27:57] bureaucratic and you ought to [00:27:58] be ashamed of yourself. There are I [00:28:01] could sit and we could make a list of [00:28:03] 8,000 things that haven't been done that [00:28:05] should have been done. And this is the [00:28:06] part of you that makes me so angry when [00:28:08] you talk like a bureaucrat and not like [00:28:10] the wonderful doctor I know you are. You [00:28:13] know that if I came down and gave you [00:28:15] $25 million, there are 25 different [00:28:17] things that you would do that you're not [00:28:18] doing now. And science is done that way. [00:28:21] And there are a thousand things that can [00:28:23] be done to make all of this happen [00:28:25] faster. And you know it. And that's the [00:28:28] part of you that makes me so angry. [00:28:30] >> Well, don't get angry, Larry, because [00:28:32] I'll say it right here on TV that [00:28:34] clearly, and I've said it to you many [00:28:36] times that you never have enough to for [00:28:40] research. There are more. So, Right. [00:28:42] >> What? You got to climb the mountain. [00:28:43] >> We'll do it right. Exactly. We could use [00:28:45] more money. You always could use more [00:28:47] money in biomedical research. [00:28:48] >> You could use more money. You could use [00:28:49] more staff. You've got a lot of vacant [00:28:51] positions. You got a lot of dumb [00:28:53] scientists who aren't good enough, who [00:28:55] don't challenge you enough on your [00:28:56] staff. where Sam Broer at NCI is [00:28:59] bemoning the fact that there aren't any [00:29:00] young scientists that will come to work [00:29:02] at the National Institutes of Health [00:29:04] anymore. Why don't you guys speak up [00:29:05] about all these things that you know is [00:29:07] happening. You've got an institute that [00:29:10] is a cesspool of mediocrity that Harold [00:29:13] Varmas is is is inheriting and nobody [00:29:16] will criticize it. No journalist will go [00:29:18] out there and explore it or attack it. [00:29:20] It's become this holy place like lords [00:29:22] that you can't say anything against. and [00:29:24] you know as well as I do that there like [00:29:26] 30 vacant positions on your staff that [00:29:28] you can't get anybody to fill because [00:29:29] you haven't got enough money to give [00:29:31] them decent salaries. We're going to get [00:29:33] this call. We'll come back to you. We [00:29:34] also want to show you more of the news [00:29:35] conference today uh at the Department of [00:29:37] Health and Human Services. Elizabeth [00:29:39] City, North Carolina, thanks for [00:29:40] waiting. [00:29:41] >> Yeah. Hi. Um I agree with Kramer. Um it [00:29:45] is a serious problem and I and I agree [00:29:48] with um Fousy [00:29:50] >> Dr. Fouchy. [00:29:51] >> Yes. Um, I agree with him too. Um, [00:29:56] the only thing that I have is that [00:29:57] you're kind of off base at trying to uh [00:30:00] put Clinton on the spot for it. Um, [00:30:03] because you have the phone number for [00:30:05] your congressman and that's where the [00:30:07] money comes from. And so, you know, like [00:30:09] put it where it is and and we can make [00:30:12] things happen. [00:30:12] >> Let's let's talk about that for a [00:30:14] minute. The Congress of the United [00:30:16] States of America has completely lost [00:30:19] the trust of the American people because [00:30:21] this country is in such a mess. My [00:30:23] Congress people are simply dreadful on [00:30:26] AIDS. Senator Damato, Senator Moahan, [00:30:29] they don't even know how to spell AIDS. [00:30:31] They don't know what the word means. I [00:30:33] can't tell you how many letters I have [00:30:34] written to them, how I've sat in their [00:30:36] offices, how I've picketed them, how I [00:30:38] put calls in. It doesn't make any [00:30:40] difference. The terrible thing that has [00:30:42] happened in in this country, and that's [00:30:44] what I've discovered over the last 13 [00:30:46] years, is that a one voice no longer [00:30:50] makes any difference. You cannot fight [00:30:52] city call. You cannot change the system. [00:30:55] The system sucks. [00:30:57] >> Wednesday is World AIDS Day. We're [00:30:59] talking about [00:31:00] >> another joke, World AIDS Day, the one [00:31:02] day of the year where everybody can feel [00:31:05] uh less guilty because they're saying [00:31:06] the word AIDS. I had an interview today [00:31:09] from one of the top reporters on one of [00:31:11] the major networks who's who's doing a [00:31:14] piece on World AIDS Day that's going to [00:31:15] appear tomorrow. And I'm not going to [00:31:16] tell you her name for the for the [00:31:18] obvious reason. The end of the [00:31:19] interview, she started crying and she [00:31:21] said, "My brother is straight and my [00:31:23] brother has AIDS and my brother doesn't [00:31:26] know how he got AIDS. He thinks he got [00:31:27] it from from shoot from injecting [00:31:29] steroids because he's a bodybuilder." [00:31:31] Now, this is a I said, "Why don't you do [00:31:33] a story about this? This is a straight [00:31:35] man with AIDS." and there are very few [00:31:37] stories out there about straight people [00:31:39] with AIDS, certainly straight men with [00:31:40] AIDS. And she said, "He won't let me." [00:31:43] And that's uh that's [00:31:47] you get my point. [00:31:50] >> We want to show you a portion of uh this [00:31:52] news conference held today in which the [00:31:54] Clinton administration formed a task [00:31:55] force to help find a cure for AIDS, [00:31:58] including uh you will hear a [00:31:59] representative of the Merc [00:32:00] Pharmaceutical Company. [00:32:03] I will tell you as a as a scientist and [00:32:06] and having been in this business now for [00:32:09] uh more than 18 years, I have to be I am [00:32:12] optimistic. I'm optimistic because the [00:32:14] biology is so well known. This is not a [00:32:17] cancer with an unknown cause. This is a [00:32:20] viral disease where the virus is [00:32:23] identified, characterized, and where we [00:32:25] are learning more and more about the [00:32:27] biology and chemistry all the time. So I [00:32:29] am I am overall an optimist. On the [00:32:32] other hand, the timing I will never [00:32:34] predict because we've I've been in the [00:32:36] business long enough to know that that [00:32:38] is unpredictable. [00:32:40] But you should understand that the NIH [00:32:43] and the and the industry are making an [00:32:46] enormous effort. The industry and I'll [00:32:49] speak for Merc itself. Uh this is the [00:32:52] largest effort we have ever made in the [00:32:54] history of the company at this level of [00:32:56] development of a product candidate for a [00:32:59] disease. [00:33:00] >> Dr. Dr. Fouchy, I'm going to put you on [00:33:02] the spot. Can you point [00:33:05] >> Yes, it was of the Merc Pharmaceutical [00:33:06] Company. He's the chairman and the CEO. [00:33:08] >> He's been wonderful. Merc has been [00:33:10] wonderful. Merc has been probably the [00:33:12] best drug company uh involved in all of [00:33:15] this. And and if there's evident if [00:33:17] there's a presidential medal for for [00:33:19] freedom or something, it ought to go to [00:33:21] Merc. And there are a few drug companies [00:33:23] I'd be happy to mention who should be [00:33:25] kicked out of the human race. [00:33:28] the issue of a timetable, [00:33:30] >> right? [00:33:30] >> What are you looking at? [00:33:32] >> Uh again, as Dr. Vagelo said, you really [00:33:35] can't give a firm timetable except to [00:33:37] say that we're not going to get the [00:33:39] answer tomorrow. And the kinds of [00:33:41] inroads that are made, as small as they [00:33:43] are, science works in small building [00:33:45] blocks of knowledge. [00:33:47] >> Oh, Tony, stop it. Yes, the the answer [00:33:49] could come tomorrow. Why do you [00:33:50] automatically take such a negative [00:33:52] attitude? You're not going to get it. [00:33:53] Let me finish. And it doesn't. It [00:33:55] happens in big building blocks as well [00:33:57] as little building blocks. It's all of [00:33:59] this rhetoric of yours and everybody [00:34:01] else in a bureaucracy. You know, I want [00:34:04] to say something about about Tony Fouchy [00:34:06] because I think the world must think I I [00:34:08] hate him or something. The way I'm going [00:34:10] on tonight, I love Tony. Actually, I I [00:34:12] think I probably have a more complicated [00:34:14] relationship with Tony than anybody in [00:34:16] my entire life. He is a man, an ordinary [00:34:19] man who is being asked to play God. and [00:34:23] he is being punished because he cannot [00:34:25] be God. And that is a terrible situation [00:34:27] to be in to be the lightning rod for all [00:34:30] of us. Uh he has had to deal with Reagan [00:34:34] and Bush and defend those monsters. For [00:34:36] all we know, he probably kept the labs [00:34:38] open when John Cenu and Gary Bower and [00:34:41] other awful bigots probably wanted them [00:34:43] closed. And he had to do it at a price. [00:34:46] Probably at a price for his own soul [00:34:48] that we'll never know. that that he had [00:34:50] to say things that in his heart he never [00:34:52] believed. But he is there and he has [00:34:54] been the this this this incredible [00:34:57] fighter for us and for AIDS. I just get [00:35:00] angry when he puts on this bureaucratic [00:35:02] suit and out comes this boilerplate. Uh [00:35:06] like Donna Shala said the same thing. [00:35:08] All this rhetoric that doesn't mean [00:35:09] anything. Tony more than anyone in this [00:35:11] world knows how awful everything is, [00:35:14] knows what has to be done, knows that he [00:35:17] should have been given a lot more money [00:35:18] to do it, knows who all these terrible [00:35:20] people are, and yet he can never say it [00:35:22] in public like I can say it in public. [00:35:24] >> Dr. Fouch, let me go back to an earlier [00:35:26] question. [00:35:26] >> Why don't you respond to that, Anthony? [00:35:27] >> Oh, go ahead, doctor. [00:35:28] >> I love you, Larry. [00:35:31] >> Let me go to the issue of funding one [00:35:32] more time. How much was spent in the [00:35:35] Reagan years? How much was spent in the [00:35:36] Bush years? And what is it today? Well, [00:35:38] the cumulative amount uh I I'd have to [00:35:40] just add them up quickly, but it ranged [00:35:42] from very very early just a few million [00:35:44] up through uh half a billion up to a [00:35:47] billion, which is last year was oh about [00:35:50] 1 billion or so. One 1 billion 27 U [00:35:54] million and this year it's 1.3 billion. [00:35:57] >> That's a dollar for the dollar a dollar [00:35:59] a case that comes to [00:36:00] >> it's this year's budget for the fiscal [00:36:02] year 1994 is 1.3 billion for the NIH [00:36:06] alone which is 12.2% 2% of our budget. [00:36:08] >> That's $1 for every AIDS case. You think [00:36:10] you're going to cure it with $1 a case? [00:36:12] Good luck. [00:36:13] >> Fairfax, Virginia. [00:36:15] >> Uh, yes. Um, I've got a I've got a [00:36:18] comment for Mr. Kramer. [00:36:19] >> I just can't understand why he doesn't [00:36:22] believe that that pharmaceutical [00:36:24] companies aren't doing all they can to [00:36:27] uh to push for the research of these [00:36:29] drugs to to find a cure for AIDS. The [00:36:32] the uh potential for profit is enormous. [00:36:34] Well, I have to disagree with that. I [00:36:36] have to disagree with that. The [00:36:38] potential for profit is not enormous [00:36:40] because most of the people who have this [00:36:42] illness are very very poor. Most of them [00:36:44] are in the third world. A lot of them at [00:36:46] present in this country have no [00:36:47] insurance. And I think most drug [00:36:49] companies know that. I think that uh uh [00:36:53] Burough's welcome learned a very harsh [00:36:55] lesson with act. They thought it was [00:36:56] going to make them very rich and it [00:36:58] didn't make them very rich. So that's [00:37:00] why I applaud the efforts of a c of a [00:37:03] company like Merc of a company like [00:37:06] Bristol Meyers even more than I uh uh [00:37:08] can say because they're doing it for [00:37:10] humanitarian reasons, not for wretched [00:37:13] like wretched bureau's welcome that only [00:37:16] does it for greed. [00:37:18] >> I'm going to go back to this funding [00:37:19] issue. You think I'm uh hounding on it, [00:37:21] but but we keep talking about a billion [00:37:23] dollars or a billion three. [00:37:25] >> Yeah. [00:37:25] >> Do you want to clarify that? [00:37:26] >> No. Actually, no. The one the one one [00:37:28] thing I want to clarify the the funding [00:37:30] issue is $1.3 billion for AIDS for the [00:37:34] NIH for this year. Last year it was 21% [00:37:38] less than that. It was 1.027 billion. [00:37:41] The the number that Larry keeps talking [00:37:43] about that I just want to correct Larry. [00:37:44] I I'll I don't want to have to correct [00:37:47] you publicly, but I don't want to get [00:37:48] people to get the wrong impression. You [00:37:50] said 1 billion people are are going to [00:37:52] be infected with HIV by the year year [00:37:54] 2000. That's overwhelmingly over [00:37:57] anybody's realistic projections. There [00:37:59] is e even the worst Harvard AIDS [00:38:00] Institute scenario isund and something [00:38:03] million and that's a lot and that's [00:38:05] nothing to poo poo but there are five [00:38:07] billion people in the world. You're [00:38:08] talking about oneif of the world being [00:38:10] infected by two the year 2000. That's [00:38:12] not going to happen. 200 million [00:38:14] >> you know it's not going to happen. And [00:38:15] why are you playing this game with me? [00:38:17] That's not this is Dr. Hazeline's figure [00:38:20] was wrong. It was published in the New [00:38:22] York Times in an op-ed pace. Everybody [00:38:24] let him get away with it. Then why? So [00:38:27] what if it's a 100 million or a billion? [00:38:29] How many? What difference? [00:38:30] >> That's what I'm saying. 100 million is [00:38:31] bad enough, but let's not because then [00:38:33] you'll get out of the realm of people [00:38:34] believing what we're saying. If you say [00:38:35] a billion, [00:38:36] >> they don't believe it anyway. They [00:38:37] didn't believe it when I said uh there [00:38:39] were 5,000 people. I'm ashamed of you. [00:38:41] You should you should you should learn [00:38:43] how to how to how to play this numbers [00:38:46] game. You can do it with numbers. When [00:38:47] it comes to budget, why don't you do it [00:38:49] with AIDS figures? [00:38:50] >> Take take the highest one you can get [00:38:52] your hands on and run with it. I don't [00:38:53] want to lose the credibility, Larry, [00:38:55] when I say what I know is true. That's [00:38:57] the reason. [00:38:58] >> The last money question. [00:38:59] >> You You don't understand. You lose [00:39:01] credibility when you become a coward. [00:39:04] >> The last Larry, a billion people, right? [00:39:06] >> The last money question I want to ask, [00:39:07] then we'll go back to the phone calls. [00:39:09] >> Compare AIDS research for other [00:39:11] illnesses in this country. Where does it [00:39:12] stack up? [00:39:13] >> Yeah. One of the problems with doing [00:39:15] that and and I know I think Larry will [00:39:17] will agree with me on this is that if [00:39:18] you look at the amount of money spent [00:39:20] for AIDS research uh and you compare it [00:39:23] to cancer and heart disease despite the [00:39:25] larger number of people with cancer or [00:39:27] heart disease it's almost as much money [00:39:29] is more than heart disease and almost as [00:39:31] much as cancer but that shouldn't really [00:39:33] be taken out of context because AIDS is [00:39:35] an epidemic and it's out of control. So [00:39:38] when the people say, well, if you do it [00:39:40] person for person, there are a half a [00:39:42] million people a year, a half a million [00:39:45] people a year who die of cancer and [00:39:47] 770,000 [00:39:49] people who die of heart disease and we [00:39:52] have 200,000 deaths in 12 years for [00:39:54] AIDS. Therefore, why are you spending so [00:39:56] much money for AIDS? That's a speurious [00:39:58] argument because you can't compare on a [00:40:01] person basis a disease that is caused by [00:40:04] an infection and that is out of control. [00:40:06] So the money of 1.3 billion for the NIH [00:40:10] for AIDS is clearly justifiable despite [00:40:12] the fact that it's supposedly [00:40:14] disproportional to other diseases. It's [00:40:17] clearly justifiable. Next call. Tulsa, [00:40:19] Oklahoma. [00:40:19] >> Well answered, answer. [00:40:21] >> Yes. Um I'm calling from Tulsa, [00:40:23] Oklahoma. It's my first time uh calling [00:40:24] on C-SPAN. [00:40:25] >> Glad to hear from you. What's up? [00:40:26] >> Um I'd like to uh make comment. You [00:40:28] asked both of my questions. I was going [00:40:30] to ask just uh before I got a chance to, [00:40:32] but uh I'd like to make a few comments [00:40:34] if that's okay, please. Sure. [00:40:36] >> First of all, um, as a physician who's [00:40:39] taken care of AIDS patients, um, I would [00:40:42] say that I have a lot of compassion and [00:40:43] a lot of concern for people who are [00:40:45] suffering with AIDS. And, um, I wish we [00:40:48] could see more money. I wish we could [00:40:50] see more education. I wish we could see [00:40:53] the drugs getting released from the FDA [00:40:56] sooner. I wish we could have all those [00:40:58] things. And I want you to understand, I [00:40:59] do care. I have taken care of people who [00:41:02] are sick with it. And I'm not a bigot [00:41:04] that would uh you know preach against [00:41:06] them so to say. But my comment is this. [00:41:09] The bottom line with AIDS is prevention. [00:41:12] And you've got to teach and we've got to [00:41:15] get across and the doctor has to agree [00:41:17] with me that abstinence lifestyle, [00:41:22] teaching morality, teaching people that [00:41:25] these alternate lifestyles that have [00:41:27] really made the problem worse is the [00:41:30] answer. This is an epidemic that's [00:41:32] spread by behavior 95 to 100% of the [00:41:36] time. And we've got to address that [00:41:38] issue. That's got to be number one. And [00:41:41] we got to push that before we continue [00:41:43] to say more money, more money. Yes, we [00:41:45] need more money, but we got to address [00:41:48] behavior and we got to call it like it [00:41:50] is. [00:41:50] >> Thanks for making the point, Dr. Fouchy. [00:41:52] Yeah, there's no question that that [00:41:54] emphasis on behavior is important, but [00:41:57] we've got to be careful that when you [00:41:59] say prevention and behavior, prevention [00:42:00] behavior, which is very important and [00:42:02] critical to the effort, that you don't [00:42:04] forget about the large number of people [00:42:06] that are already HIV infection infected [00:42:08] and the responsibility that we have to [00:42:10] them to develop therapies for them for [00:42:13] their infection as well as for their [00:42:14] secondary complication. So I agree that [00:42:16] prevention is important but you cannot [00:42:19] when you say that in the same breath [00:42:21] forget about the importance of the [00:42:23] treatment of people who are already [00:42:24] infected. [00:42:25] >> I don't know how to respond to all of [00:42:26] that because um in in Africa AIDS is a [00:42:31] heterosexual disease and most of this [00:42:33] man's comments are directed against gay [00:42:36] people um very unfairly. Um, [00:42:42] people the world over want to make love [00:42:45] and you are never going to be able to [00:42:47] stop them. Uh, nor should you. And, uh, [00:42:53] this is a disease that is spread by a [00:42:56] virus, not by behavior or by bigotry. [00:43:00] And uh I think that we now have enough [00:43:03] evidence to show that education is [00:43:07] really only a partially useful weapon of [00:43:11] prevention. That people now know what [00:43:16] they're doing and choose if they so do [00:43:18] it not to uh be aware of it in their [00:43:22] minds. I don't think uh I think most of [00:43:24] the world now knows how AIDS is spread. [00:43:27] Uh, so what I'm saying is I don't think [00:43:30] you're ever going to be able to educate [00:43:32] an entire world to do and live exactly [00:43:35] as you want everybody to do and live. [00:43:38] And that the fastest way, therefore, to [00:43:40] deal with the problem is not to preach [00:43:42] anything, but to find a cure for the [00:43:45] disease, which is why I spend all my [00:43:48] time as a treatment activist and not as [00:43:50] a morality activist. [00:43:52] >> Bisby, Arizona, thanks for waiting. Yes. [00:43:55] I would like to make a comment. Two [00:43:57] years ago, my 42year-old [00:44:00] heterosexual sister died with the HIV [00:44:03] virus, AIDS. [00:44:05] >> I'm sorry to hear that. [00:44:06] >> And [00:44:08] I understand Mr. Kramer's frustration [00:44:12] and anger. [00:44:14] When my sister contracted the HIV virus, [00:44:17] there was no education for straight [00:44:19] heterosexual women. This was a gay [00:44:22] disease. [00:44:23] The community was not alarmed [00:44:27] because it was them, meaning the gay [00:44:29] community. [00:44:32] She had a right to live. [00:44:34] And if some of these people that are [00:44:36] calling in would sit for one day with a [00:44:40] loved one who is dying of AIDS, [00:44:44] they would be frustrated and angry, too. [00:44:47] The government has done nothing [00:44:50] in the 10 years that she had AIDS and [00:44:53] nothing in the two years since she's [00:44:55] passed away. [00:44:58] They think that this is going to go away [00:45:00] and it's not. [00:45:02] And she had a right to live. [00:45:04] >> She didn't. [00:45:05] >> She had a right to a future. [00:45:08] She had a right to be healthy. [00:45:11] And anyone in the United States who [00:45:14] feels that an individual, whether gay, [00:45:17] straight, black, Asian, Haitian, does [00:45:21] not have a right to live and be healthy [00:45:23] and to want a cure. Every day that she [00:45:26] was infected, she hoped and prayed for a [00:45:31] cure. [00:45:34] And I hope that we start to do something [00:45:37] so other family members won't have to [00:45:39] sit and watch their loved ones slowly [00:45:43] deteriorate and die. [00:45:46] >> Caller, thank thanks for making the [00:45:48] points. Get some reaction from Larry [00:45:49] Kramer. [00:45:50] >> I mean, how can you not be moved? And I [00:45:54] guess what I want to say is to Dr. Dr. [00:45:56] Fouchy and all the scientists who who [00:46:00] don't deal with cases like this who live [00:46:02] in their ivory towers in their hospitals [00:46:05] in their laboratories and and and that [00:46:08] that they remember that there are [00:46:10] millions of people out there like that [00:46:13] that they have to work faster to save. [00:46:16] And then I this makes I come back to [00:46:18] what I said earlier in in a more [00:46:20] high-pitched voice that [00:46:24] urgency urgency urgency. There is no [00:46:27] sense of urgency going on to attend to [00:46:30] this. Everything that is being done is a [00:46:33] task force. It's a committee. It's slow. [00:46:36] It's rhetoric like science isn't done [00:46:38] like that or it's little building [00:46:40] blocks. We have a plague here. I'm tired [00:46:43] of hearing the word epidemic. It's not [00:46:46] an epidemic anymore. It's been a plague [00:46:48] for easily six or seven years. And yet, [00:46:50] nobody will use that word. People are [00:46:52] afraid to use that word. But it is a [00:46:55] plague, Tony. It is a plague by every [00:46:57] definition in any dictionary. It is no [00:47:00] longer an epidemic. It is a plague. Why [00:47:02] don't we all use this word plague in our [00:47:05] daily discourse and talk about it as the [00:47:07] AIDS plague, not the AIDS epidemic. And [00:47:09] maybe that'll help raise the sense of [00:47:11] urgency about all of this. [00:47:13] >> Dr. Fouchy. [00:47:14] >> Larry, I know that you know and feel [00:47:17] that I have an extraordinary sense of [00:47:19] urgency about this disease. Am I not [00:47:21] correct, [00:47:22] >> Tone? I know you do, but I don't hear [00:47:24] you out there telling Bill Clinton, [00:47:27] putting it on the line and saying, "I [00:47:29] can't take it anymore. I cannot take [00:47:32] working under these conditions anymore. [00:47:34] I cannot take having a staff that has 20 [00:47:37] vacancies on it and 20 people who are [00:47:39] substandard in their scientific [00:47:41] intelligence working for me anymore. I [00:47:44] cannot find you a cure working under [00:47:47] these kind of conditions. That's what I [00:47:50] want you to say. That's what everybody [00:47:52] who's doing AIDS research for the [00:47:54] government and the NIH has to say. And I [00:47:56] don't hear it. All I hear is that [00:47:58] bureaucratic boilerplate that you have [00:48:01] to say because you know Donna Shala is [00:48:04] breathing down your neck or Bill Clinton [00:48:06] and you can't be fired Tony by law. You [00:48:09] can't be fired. You have nothing to lose [00:48:11] by saying what I'm saying to you. [00:48:15] >> Uh but Larry, a lot of what you're [00:48:17] saying isn't correct. We don't have 20 [00:48:19] vacancies and we do have good people [00:48:21] working. [00:48:21] >> How many you got? [00:48:22] >> We we have virtually none now. [00:48:24] Everything is filled, Larry, since the [00:48:26] last time you heard about it. And we [00:48:27] have very good people who are working [00:48:28] very, very hard, giving a very [00:48:31] substantial effort and very bright, good [00:48:34] people working on this, not only at the [00:48:35] NIH, but throughout the country. And I [00:48:37] and I don't think that we should [00:48:38] belittle that. You have the best of [00:48:40] minds putting an extraordinary effort. [00:48:43] We don't have the an Larry, I have to [00:48:45] disagree with you on that, Larry. You [00:48:47] can't say that there are a bunch of of [00:48:49] losers out there working on HIV and [00:48:51] AIDS. It isn't the case. You know that. [00:48:53] I I don't know it and I'm ashamed of you [00:48:56] because what you say in private and what [00:48:57] you say in public and what Sam Broer [00:49:00] says in private and what he says in [00:49:01] public are two different things. And [00:49:04] that's what bothers me is that that that [00:49:06] you have to l live this double-edged [00:49:09] life. You don't have the best people. [00:49:13] The best people will not work for the [00:49:16] NIH for the few bucks that you could [00:49:18] afford to pay for them. They're going to [00:49:20] go out and work in a hospital in private [00:49:22] industry and have a practice or for a [00:49:24] drug company, which means they're not [00:49:26] going to work on AIDS. And you know that [00:49:29] >> we have time for we have time for one [00:49:30] more call. Let's try to squeeze it in. [00:49:32] Lexington Park, Maryland, thanks for [00:49:33] waiting. [00:49:34] >> Yeah, thanks a lot for getting me [00:49:35] through. And I think what you guys got [00:49:36] here is very educational. I'd like to [00:49:38] make a couple of quick points. I know we [00:49:39] put [00:49:40] >> we're short on time, so be brief. One is [00:49:42] uh just yesterday I heard on the news [00:49:44] that the United States government spent [00:49:45] like I think it was a couple of million [00:49:47] or a couple of billion dollars to do [00:49:49] research on how they can make a pig's [00:49:51] life more comfortable before he dies go [00:49:53] to the slaughter house. That money right [00:49:55] there could be turned and used for [00:49:57] worthy cause like AIDS. Nobody nobody [00:49:59] wants to step forward like Mr. Kramer [00:50:01] say and say hey we have a echad we have [00:50:03] a problem here. This is not just [00:50:05] something that's going to go next door. [00:50:06] It's not going to touch this person or [00:50:07] that person. But when they touch [00:50:09] somebody in the White House's family, [00:50:10] then they get concerned. Everybody's [00:50:12] jumping on the bandwagon now because [00:50:13] tomorrow is this national big holiday. [00:50:15] Who gives a poop? Nobody cares. We need [00:50:17] to get down in the trenches and fight [00:50:19] this thing like a war. I'm I'm in the [00:50:20] military. I am not gay. I'm not bisexual [00:50:22] or anything. I'm a straight male. But it [00:50:25] just burns me up to see people around me [00:50:27] that I know, friends dying, loved ones, [00:50:29] people's families that have been [00:50:30] touched. And it's like nobody really [00:50:31] gives a poo. Oh yeah, he died of age. [00:50:33] You know, it's like a age. The letters A [00:50:35] should stand always in this order with [00:50:37] big dollar signs down the bottom. [00:50:38] >> Thanks for making the points. Final [00:50:40] minute. Larry Kramer, you get the last [00:50:42] word. [00:50:43] >> Oh my goodness. [00:50:45] >> I'm speechless. [00:50:46] >> Well, we'll get Dr. Fouchy to say [00:50:47] something as well. So, go with it, [00:50:48] though. [00:50:50] >> I want Bill Clinton to come out of the [00:50:53] closet and do something about this [00:50:56] disease. I want him to keep his campaign [00:50:58] promises. I want him to stop being a [00:51:00] wuss. I want him to start giving [00:51:02] somebody emergency powers. I want him to [00:51:05] realize that in Tony Fouchy, he's got [00:51:07] one of the smartest scientists in this [00:51:08] country and let him do his thing. Oh, I [00:51:12] want a lot of things. But I want a [00:51:15] president to lead. I want a president to [00:51:18] declare a state of urgency. And we have [00:51:21] never had that. [00:51:23] You know, Larry, I you're going to blast [00:51:25] me for this because we've been in this [00:51:27] position before, but I I think if you [00:51:29] look at what the president has done [00:51:30] since he's become president, it really [00:51:32] has been substantial. He's been very [00:51:34] sensitive, has reached out, has has [00:51:35] appointed an AIDS, the legislation, has [00:51:38] a reorganization of some of the [00:51:40] structure at the NIH. Uh he's put more [00:51:43] money, 21% increase. So, I I think it's [00:51:46] unfair to the president to say that he's [00:51:47] just sort of sitting back and taking it [00:51:49] business as usual. Larry, you know that [00:51:51] he's not doing everything that you want [00:51:53] him to do, but to say that he's sitting [00:51:55] back and doing business as usual is [00:51:57] incorrect. And I think deep down, you [00:51:58] know that. [00:51:59] >> Tony, I'm going to say something. When [00:52:02] you talk like that, I hate you. [00:52:04] >> I know. I know, Larry. On that note, [00:52:06] gentlemen, we thank you. It has been an [00:52:08] interesting and informative hour. Thanks [00:52:09] very much, Dr. Fouchy of NIH and Larry [00:52:12] Kramer joining us from New York City. [00:52:14] Thank you very much. Hope we can both [00:52:15] have you back again to talk about this [00:52:16] issue. And we thank you for tuning in. [00:52:18] Have a good evening. [00:52:29] This programming note will reair this [00:52:31] Colin program later at 1:50 a.m. Eastern [00:52:34] time, 10:50 p.m. on the West Coast. [00:52:37] Coming next, more of our program [00:52:39] schedule. But first, a look at the [00:52:41] travels of the C-SPAN school bus in the [00:52:43] Western US. [00:52:47] Heat. Heat.