When Does Life Begin? Charlie Kirk Debates Abortion and Moral Responsibility

[00:00:00] But I want to start off this [00:00:00] conversation by saying I am a Christian. [00:00:02] I go to church every Sunday. I believe [00:00:04] in God. I've seen his work. And I don't [00:00:06] want that to necessarily be a basis for [00:00:07] the discussion. Um so we can both agree [00:00:11] that fetus h a fetus has viability [00:00:14] outside of the womb at 20 weeks. We've [00:00:16] seen it happen. We have not seen a fetus [00:00:18] be viable outside of the womb before 20 [00:00:20] weeks. Right. Okay. So getting into [00:00:23] that, we can go back to someone who is [00:00:26] brain dead or um in a long-term [00:00:29] vegetative state, right? They cannot [00:00:31] live without the life mechanisms that [00:00:34] are helping them breathe, like their [00:00:35] ventilators, if they're on diialysis, if [00:00:36] they're in um kidney failure, stuff like [00:00:38] that, right? [00:00:40] So, could you make the same argument [00:00:42] that a fetus that is living inside of a [00:00:44] mother's womb cannot live outside [00:00:47] relating it to the life sustaining [00:00:50] um like stuff that is keeping a person [00:00:52] alive if they're in a coma or something, [00:00:56] >> right? Not to rehash the prior argument, [00:00:58] but you understand the moral difference. [00:01:00] a 17week old allowed to continue to [00:01:03] develop will become self-independent [00:01:05] where an individual in a vegetative [00:01:07] state will almost assuredly not. They're [00:01:09] two separate things. Secondly, it goes [00:01:13] back to the question [00:01:15] define viability. There are babies right [00:01:18] now that are 27 weeks in the NICU, which [00:01:21] is the neonatal intensive care unit that [00:01:24] have all sorts of compartments all [00:01:25] around them. Is it morally justified to [00:01:28] pull the plug on a baby in NICU? [00:01:31] >> So most women, so like going to [00:01:34] abortion, most women are not getting [00:01:36] late late term abortions if it is [00:01:38] something that they want. People who are [00:01:39] getting late term abortions are people [00:01:41] where the fetus is either like already [00:01:44] dead, so getting like kind of a [00:01:45] miscarriage. [00:01:45] >> So that's not an abortion. Just so we're [00:01:47] clear, the the removal of a carcass is [00:01:49] not an abortion. But yeah, [00:01:50] >> an instance where a woman is getting an [00:01:52] abortion because if she has this baby, [00:01:54] she will die. [00:01:55] >> Yeah. But why why would they not be [00:01:56] counseledled to get a C-section [00:02:00] >> if someone is going to die from giving [00:02:02] birth? Whether that [00:02:03] >> it's not C-section is not the [00:02:04] traditional vaginal birth. It's way [00:02:06] safer and quicker than an abortion. [00:02:07] >> It might be safer, but there are still [00:02:09] >> might be safer. You disagree. [00:02:11] >> So then what shouldn't we counsel women [00:02:12] to get the safer option that that [00:02:14] >> there is still a chance that they're [00:02:15] going to die though? [00:02:16] >> Well, there's there's a chance they die [00:02:17] if they get an abortion, too. Abortion [00:02:19] is actually the deadlier of all the [00:02:21] options for a woman in a crisis post [00:02:23] 20week situation, but the abortionists [00:02:26] make more money and it's easier to just [00:02:28] terminate the life. For example, if you [00:02:30] have a uterine wall break at 28 weeks, [00:02:32] serious problem, you have an option. Go [00:02:34] get an abortion or go get a C-section. [00:02:36] Which one is actually quicker? [00:02:39] >> An abortion. But [00:02:40] >> no, no, no, no, no. C-section's way [00:02:41] quicker. Like you could go right now to [00:02:43] Columbia General and you could get a [00:02:45] C-section in like 15 minutes. they're [00:02:47] primed for an abortion is actually like [00:02:49] a 9-hour prep procedure. The point being [00:02:52] is that you're talking about a very [00:02:54] isolated set of cases. However, even [00:02:56] with those isolated set of cases, we are [00:02:58] led to believe that abortion will save [00:03:00] the mother's life when there's an [00:03:02] alternative cescareian section on the [00:03:04] table that these moms are almost never [00:03:05] told about. [00:03:07] >> So then the issue is educating women on [00:03:09] their options. So here's my thing, [00:03:11] >> which OBS should be doing, but they're [00:03:12] not. If there is a woman who you like [00:03:14] you said 27 weeks uterine wall breaks [00:03:16] most likely that woman wants to have [00:03:18] this baby. They have carried it to 27 [00:03:20] weeks. They didn't get an early term [00:03:22] abortion before the fetus was viable. [00:03:25] They want to have this child. So if they [00:03:27] aren't given this option, then what are [00:03:30] they supposed to do? [00:03:30] >> You are not stuck if your pregnancy goes [00:03:33] wrong in the 20 weeks. In fact, a [00:03:36] C-section is safer for you and safer for [00:03:38] the baby like 99.9% out of a 100 times [00:03:42] when that terrible situation happens. [00:03:44] The problem is that the OBGYn industry [00:03:48] will present abortion as a much more [00:03:51] viable option when it just isn't because [00:03:54] also they don't even factor in the [00:03:56] baby's life. It they it's like okay, [00:03:59] it's just a disposable component here [00:04:01] where our perspective and I know you [00:04:03] might disagree. We should seek to save [00:04:05] both lives, both the mother and the [00:04:08] child, where the OBGYn, [00:04:10] and this is how they're medically [00:04:12] trained, is first and foremost the [00:04:15] doctor for the mother and then the baby [00:04:17] second. Does that make sense? [00:04:18] >> Yes. And I and I I can find middle [00:04:21] ground here. I can agree with that. And [00:04:23] because again, I don't think that any [00:04:24] woman who's carrying to 27 28 weeks is [00:04:27] wanting to have an abortion. So those [00:04:29] options should be like educated and [00:04:32] people should be given options. Fair [00:04:34] enough. I agree. [00:04:35] >> Can we move to early term abortion a [00:04:36] little bit? [00:04:37] >> Sure. [00:04:37] >> Okay. So, is there any instance whether [00:04:41] anything like that where you would agree [00:04:43] with an early term abortion? [00:04:45] >> Not a single instance. [00:04:46] >> Correct. [00:04:47] >> So, like a 13-year-old who was has no [00:04:51] financial stability, can't even get a [00:04:53] job because you can't get a job until [00:04:55] 14, 15, 16 in the US, who cannot support [00:04:58] that baby. If it was her father, then [00:05:00] she has no support from her parents. [00:05:02] What is she supposed to do in that [00:05:03] situation? [00:05:04] >> You could put the baby up for adoption. [00:05:06] But outside of going into the extreme [00:05:09] specifics of your case, which does [00:05:11] happen, it goes down to the fundamental [00:05:13] question. Is it a baby that she is [00:05:15] helping develop in her womb, or is it [00:05:18] something else? If it's a baby, then you [00:05:21] must have universal human rights applied [00:05:23] to that baby definitionally. [00:05:25] >> Can you claim a fetus on your taxes? [00:05:28] >> No, you can't. Can you claim you can [00:05:30] claim a one-year-old? can claim a [00:05:32] 9-month-old. [00:05:32] >> Actually, that's a great idea. We should [00:05:34] actually have child support starting 9 [00:05:36] months earlier. So, [00:05:37] >> you you won me over there. But if if [00:05:39] your point is if your point is that our [00:05:41] federal tax code reflects abortion laws, [00:05:44] then [00:05:45] >> you've made the point. But I guess my [00:05:47] question for you, when does life begin? [00:05:51] >> I think that life begins um at birth. [00:05:54] And I know you're going to disagree with [00:05:55] me on there. Um but I also believe that [00:05:58] like once the fetus is viable [00:06:00] if if it if the birth happens at 20 [00:06:02] weeks 21 weeks then that is a child but [00:06:06] before that when it does not have like [00:06:08] all of its functionality to be able to [00:06:10] live outside the womb even in like the [00:06:12] niku then it is not alive it's not [00:06:16] >> it's not babies in the niku are not [00:06:17] alive [00:06:18] >> they I said when they are able to [00:06:19] >> I know but what's the moral difference [00:06:20] though they have machines they have [00:06:22] assistance [00:06:23] >> you cannot have a 15week old fetus [00:06:26] and have it live outside of the womb. [00:06:28] Bottom line, we don't have the [00:06:29] technology to do that. [00:06:30] >> So, at one point, you were a fetus, [00:06:31] right? [00:06:32] >> Were you alive when you were a fetus? [00:06:34] >> No. [00:06:34] >> Really? [00:06:36] >> I don't believe that I was alive. I [00:06:38] didn't have thought. [00:06:38] >> Okay. So, I I I do want to go back to [00:06:40] one component of your argument. You [00:06:42] talked about that you are a Christian. [00:06:45] So, in the book of Luke, it says that [00:06:49] John the Baptist leapt in the womb when [00:06:52] it came near Jesus Christ. It's the word [00:06:55] brephos for baby. [00:06:57] >> Was that was John the Baptist and Jesus [00:06:59] a baby or a fetus in the womb? [00:07:02] >> I think he was a fetus. [00:07:04] >> So Jesus was not alive in the womb. [00:07:06] >> I think that he had his like [00:07:08] functionality, but he wouldn't have been [00:07:09] able to live outside the womb. [00:07:10] >> How do you leap if you're not alive? [00:07:13] >> Babies move all the time. It's instinct. [00:07:15] It's not like it's the same way. It's [00:07:17] not like something that they're thinking [00:07:19] about doing, [00:07:20] >> right? So, my six-month-old has a lot of [00:07:23] different instincts. When you get a [00:07:25] newborn baby, it will wean for its [00:07:27] mother's breast. It's not thinking, it's [00:07:29] instinct. When you poke a baby in the [00:07:31] stomach, it will react. So, a baby [00:07:35] cannot hunt or gather for itself until [00:07:37] it's probably four years old. Therefore, [00:07:39] it's dependent on the mother, dependent [00:07:41] on the father. How is that any different [00:07:44] than a baby in uterero that needs [00:07:46] nutrients from the mother? Because it's [00:07:49] the in uterero, right? The mother [00:07:52] doesn't have a choice. Whatever they eat [00:07:54] going to the baby. Whatever they drink [00:07:55] going to the baby. All of that. And [00:07:57] sure, they're able to give it up for [00:07:58] adoption and then they won't have to [00:07:59] worry about it. And our adoption, the [00:08:02] system currently is a whole another [00:08:04] issue. But sure, they are able to give [00:08:06] up this baby for adoption and then they [00:08:07] don't have to worry about it. But it's [00:08:09] having the choice of if you want to [00:08:12] nourish that child, go through all of [00:08:14] the pain and struggle and everything [00:08:16] that comes with being pregnant. [00:08:18] >> So outside of would you say we should [00:08:21] get rid of all abortions except except [00:08:23] of and [00:08:25] >> I think um I'm not pro abortion. I am [00:08:28] pro-choice. And ultimately it's not [00:08:32] up to me if like if she was pregnant and [00:08:34] wanted to get an abortion that shouldn't [00:08:35] be my decision. And so I don't think it [00:08:37] should be the government. So therefore, [00:08:38] >> but I'm not proabortion. I don't think [00:08:40] voluntary late term abortion should be [00:08:42] allowed. [00:08:42] >> I got it. Well, so let me ask you a [00:08:44] question. Since you're pro-choice, [00:08:45] should a mom be able to choose to abort [00:08:48] her baby if she finds out she's having a [00:08:50] girl and she wants a boy? [00:08:52] >> So [00:08:53] >> you're pro-choice. [00:08:55] >> I don't think that voluntary late term [00:08:57] abortion should happen by the question. [00:08:58] >> So that's why I'm saying if that's the [00:09:00] woman's choice, then that's the woman's [00:09:01] choice. [00:09:05] And a lot of times that's going to be a [00:09:06] discussion. But the thing is, you're [00:09:08] saying this, but people don't do that. [00:09:09] >> Oh, no. They do it all the time. In [00:09:11] fact, they do it so much they had to [00:09:12] pass a law where people would get [00:09:14] genetics tests around 12 to 14 weeks. [00:09:17] They would find out they were having a [00:09:18] girl and the incident rate of abortion [00:09:20] would spike. So, your view of basically [00:09:23] developing a child is no different than [00:09:26] like customizing a Ford Explorer. It's [00:09:29] like, I like this characteristic, but [00:09:30] not this characteristic. Do you think it [00:09:33] should be legal if you find out your [00:09:35] baby's having Down syndrome to terminate [00:09:37] your baby? [00:09:38] >> No. [00:09:39] >> But you said you're pro-choice. [00:09:40] >> So you're not. So you you are getting in [00:09:42] the way of a mother's decision. The mom [00:09:44] doesn't want to go through the pain of [00:09:46] raising a down syndrome kid. She doesn't [00:09:47] want to pay for the down syndrome. [00:09:49] >> Personal beliefs, not the beliefs of [00:09:50] what thing? [00:09:51] >> No, no, no, but I'm saying legally. [00:09:52] Should it be legal? [00:09:54] >> I think if the baby is and I have a I [00:09:56] have a little brother with a lot of [00:09:57] special needs. He lives off of oxygen. [00:09:59] He's in a wheelchair. I have grown up [00:10:01] around kids with special needs and so I [00:10:04] understand that it is it is so hard for [00:10:08] parents, for siblings, for grandparents [00:10:09] to go through that if somebody doesn't [00:10:11] think that they're in the financial [00:10:13] stability because children with special [00:10:14] needs are a lot of money and they don't [00:10:17] get as much support from the government [00:10:18] as they should for them. They're a lot [00:10:19] of work. They're a lot of time. So if [00:10:22] somebody doesn't [00:10:22] >> So knowing all that you're actually [00:10:24] uniquely positioned to answer the [00:10:25] question doesn't think that they are in [00:10:27] the financial position to be able to [00:10:28] give this child the best possible life [00:10:31] that they could have if like they are [00:10:34] poor if it was a thing of or and they [00:10:37] don't have support from a partner. [00:10:40] I do think that like in those instances [00:10:43] I would agree more with giving up for [00:10:45] adoption, but again the adoption like [00:10:47] foster care adoption systems aren't [00:10:49] built to support children with special [00:10:51] needs. They aren't. It is so difficult [00:10:54] for children with special needs to get [00:10:55] out of the adoption system. And so in [00:10:58] instances like that again I believe it's [00:11:00] up to the mother's choice of what she [00:11:01] wants to do. [00:11:03] H [00:11:04] >> how is your view of up to the mother's [00:11:06] choice any different than eugenics? [00:11:11] I don't believe that you should abort [00:11:13] based off of like my personal beliefs, [00:11:15] right? Separate from [00:11:16] >> but your indifference, the lack of a law [00:11:18] or you advocating for a law is you [00:11:21] basically giving a tacit level of [00:11:22] support of it cuz it does happen and it [00:11:24] will happen. So we have laws that are a [00:11:26] reflection of morality. We actually have [00:11:28] a law where it's illegal to abort your [00:11:31] baby based on Down syndrome. It's a law. [00:11:33] You would you would support getting rid [00:11:34] of that? Basically, [00:11:36] >> I wouldn't support getting rid of it if [00:11:37] it's already in place. My thing is is [00:11:38] when we have we had Roie Wade which were [00:11:42] gave women reproductive freedom to have [00:11:45] abortions especially if they were deemed [00:11:47] medically necessary if it were in cases [00:11:49] of and we moved back on those to get rid [00:11:52] of them. We didn't have them and then we [00:11:54] had them and then they were taken away. [00:11:55] >> Do you think an abortion is a tragedy? [00:11:58] >> It depends on the person. If if if [00:12:01] someone got [00:12:04] and they probably are going to carry so [00:12:06] much resentment toward this child and [00:12:08] I'm not saying every case some women [00:12:09] won't carry resentments towards this [00:12:10] child but if you're carrying resentment [00:12:12] towards this being due to how it came to [00:12:14] be then [00:12:16] >> so then just murder it [00:12:20] >> essentially. So somebody in this [00:12:21] audience was conceived in Can you tell [00:12:24] me who [00:12:25] >> was it you? [00:12:26] >> No but I mean someone is can you tell me [00:12:28] who? [00:12:28] >> No. Do they have a big R on their head? [00:12:30] >> No. [00:12:30] >> So wait, they're just the same type of [00:12:32] human being that we are. [00:12:33] >> So they're indistinguishable. So they [00:12:35] get God-g granted human rights [00:12:36] regardless of their method of [00:12:38] conception. [00:12:39] >> But that's like, yes, sure, the child is [00:12:41] going to be the same or whatever, but we [00:12:43] don't know how they're going to end up [00:12:44] being raised because again, the mother [00:12:46] might not have the support. She might [00:12:47] not have this. She might not be able to [00:12:48] get them. I'm curious though, how is it [00:12:50] morally justifiable from a Christian [00:12:52] worldview to I would say murder, but you [00:12:55] would say terminate a life even if [00:12:57] you're not sure how their life is going [00:12:59] to work out by by what moral biblical [00:13:02] standard is that justifiable? [00:13:05] >> I think people should have their own [00:13:06] right to choose. They have a different [00:13:08] moral opinion. [00:13:10] >> What species is the fetus? [00:13:12] >> I mean, if it is from a human, it's a [00:13:14] human fetus. If it's from a dolphin, [00:13:16] it's a dolphin fetus. But if it's a [00:13:18] human fetus, then wouldn't it have human [00:13:20] rights? [00:13:21] >> But then it but like we don't they're [00:13:23] not they don't have a social security [00:13:25] number. They don't have you're not able [00:13:26] to claim them on your taxes until after [00:13:28] they're born. [00:13:29] >> Again, if your argument is that the our [00:13:31] US laws are reflective of abortion [00:13:33] ethics, you you are correct. But I I [00:13:36] suppose the question my I mean you do [00:13:38] know a three-year-old doesn't have a [00:13:39] driver's license either. I mean at some [00:13:41] point we can get towards the [00:13:42] documentation argument is a little [00:13:44] insane, [00:13:45] >> but a fetus is still a human being [00:13:48] worthy of human rights. And so when you [00:13:51] say it's at birth, just understand like [00:13:54] the the cruelty of that argument that [00:13:57] babies that are 28, 29, 30 weeks hear [00:13:59] the mother's voice, they move [00:14:01] completely, [00:14:02] heartbeats, their own DNA. And I suppose [00:14:05] the question I would ask, if it isn't [00:14:06] your DNA, why should it be your choice? [00:14:10] >> But what do you mean by that? It is your [00:14:12] DNA. [00:14:13] >> Well, no, it's not. A mother has her own [00:14:14] separate DNA. Yes, [00:14:16] >> her baby has different DNA. So why [00:14:18] should her DNA should be able to [00:14:19] eliminate another set of DNA [00:14:21] >> because it is inside of her? [00:14:24] >> Your location means nothing. Whether [00:14:26] you're inside Udo or live in Columbia, [00:14:28] South Carolina, you don't get more or [00:14:29] less rights based on your location. [00:14:31] >> Okay. So then take the baby out and have [00:14:32] it live in whatever if it can survive on [00:14:34] its own. [00:14:34] >> I that's what the laws should say. Take [00:14:37] the baby out the best we can and don't [00:14:39] terminate it. [00:14:40] >> That's the proife. [laughter] [00:14:42] >> 3 weeks, right? Okay. Sure. I don't want [00:14:43] to terminate my pregnancy, but we're [00:14:45] going to take it out and try to give it [00:14:46] the best leg. It's not going to survive. [00:14:47] >> Well, at three weeks, first of all, you [00:14:49] have a moral right to allow that baby to [00:14:51] grow. Which then goes back to my final [00:14:53] point. [00:14:54] >> I disagree, but I think that's valid [00:14:56] exceptions. How did the mother get [00:14:59] pregnant in the 99% of the other time? [00:15:02] >> Sometimes it happens by accident. So, [00:15:04] >> no. What do you mean by? It's not like [00:15:05] catching the flu. What do you mean by [00:15:06] accident? [00:15:08] >> Condom breaks, whatever. Like even if [00:15:11] you're using protection, not using [00:15:12] protection, whatever. [00:15:13] >> You made a decision to have sex, right? [00:15:15] >> Sure. [00:15:15] >> You you don't have you don't have to [00:15:17] have sex. It's not like eating or [00:15:19] showering. [00:15:20] >> So therefore, we as prolifers believe [00:15:22] you should take responsibility for your [00:15:24] own actions and take responsibility for [00:15:27] your own orgasms and not eliminate being [00:15:29] smaller than you just because a mistake [00:15:31] happened. Does that make sense? [00:15:32] >> That's probably where we're going to [00:15:33] disagree here. So [00:15:34] >> yeah, but again the the idea that you [00:15:37] should be able to eliminate another [00:15:39] human being because something happened [00:15:41] that you don't like I find to be wrong. [00:15:42] Thank you for your time. Appreciate it. [00:15:43] Thank you.