Booknotes+ Podcast: Elliot Williams, "Five Bullets"

[00:00:02] For his book, Five Bullets, attorney [00:00:06] Elliot Williams wrote 95,720 [00:00:10] words. On the back of the cover of the [00:00:12] book, writer Garrett Graph sums up the [00:00:17] story this way. quote, "Never has a book [00:00:21] about the 1980s [00:00:24] felt more like current events than [00:00:26] Elliot Williams Journey back to one of [00:00:29] America's most notorious shootings when [00:00:31] Bernie gets opened fire in a crowded New [00:00:35] York City subway." [00:00:38] Then Garrett Graph continues his [00:00:40] analysis. [00:00:41] Five Bullets is a haunting examination [00:00:44] of our nation's complicated fascination [00:00:47] with vigilantes and the politics of [00:00:50] crime. Close quote. A lot of the people [00:00:53] who were instrumental to this story are [00:00:55] deceased. However, the man at the [00:00:58] center, Bernie Gets, is still alive at [00:01:01] 78 and still lives in New York City. [00:01:18] Elliot Williams, on July 24th, 20123, [00:01:23] you were with your agent, Howard Yun. [00:01:26] What happened? [00:01:27] >> Howard and I were talking and he said, [00:01:30] "Have you ever thought about writing [00:01:31] history?" And I hadn't yet. Uh, it [00:01:34] wasn't something I'd explored. Everybody [00:01:35] writes memoirs in our world. a lot of uh [00:01:38] a lot of folks and I thought huh and and [00:01:41] he asked what stories mean something to [00:01:45] you where what's at the center of your [00:01:47] ven diagram [00:01:49] think about things like uh law race [00:01:53] crime politics media bias whatever else [00:01:56] but just but think if you haven't [00:01:57] thought about history think about it and [00:01:59] I realized I was down a at one point a [00:02:03] Wikipedia rabbit hole as we all get when [00:02:06] we're poking around the internet and I [00:02:08] came on what's Bernie gets up to right [00:02:11] now and I just thought huh I haven't [00:02:13] thought about Bernie get since I was [00:02:14] eight or nine years old where is he and [00:02:16] I started exploring and researching it [00:02:18] and realized what a ripe story the story [00:02:22] of Bernard gets is today for talking [00:02:25] about race crime vigilantes and and [00:02:28] really how the media uh affects our [00:02:31] perceptions of the world around us and [00:02:34] started exploring writing a book about [00:02:35] Bernie gets [00:02:37] Some people take 10 years to write a [00:02:39] book. You did this in a couple years. [00:02:41] Yeah. [00:02:41] >> And you wrote 95,000 words, but more [00:02:43] importantly, it's heavily detailed. How [00:02:46] did you do it? [00:02:47] >> How did I do it? Well, um, so much of [00:02:50] this case is in the public record. Um, [00:02:54] so I went through hundreds of New York [00:02:56] Times, Daily News, uh, New York Post [00:02:59] articles. Um, plenty of books have been [00:03:02] written. You know, probably the source [00:03:04] I've relied on, if there's a single [00:03:05] source I relied on most heavily, believe [00:03:07] it or not, was a biography of Robert [00:03:10] Morganthaw, the district of attorney, [00:03:12] the district attorney in New York, for [00:03:13] most of pretty much an entire generation [00:03:15] from I I want to say the late 1960s [00:03:18] through the early 2000s, if not if not [00:03:20] the late 1960s, certainly the 70s [00:03:22] through the 2000s. So there's a [00:03:23] biography of Morgan Thaw that really [00:03:25] sketches out not the Bernard gets case [00:03:27] but the the mood in New York City [00:03:31] through the 70s and 80s when this case [00:03:33] took place and then the big thing that [00:03:36] made this book this book the book five [00:03:38] bullets was interviewing Bernard gets [00:03:40] himself I don't think a single book [00:03:43] that's come out there and a handful have [00:03:45] come out over the years but I don't [00:03:47] think a single one has actually heard [00:03:49] from him in his own words and I and I [00:03:51] I'm not saying I built the book around [00:03:52] that. But that is something that adds a [00:03:55] three-dimensionality [00:03:57] to the story that I was trying to put [00:03:59] together. [snorts] [00:04:00] >> Before we get to Bernie gets, let's get [00:04:03] to you. Uh, where did where did you grow [00:04:05] up? [00:04:05] >> I grew up in New Jersey, a little bit [00:04:08] outside of New York City. I was born in [00:04:11] Brooklyn and my dad worked, it was [00:04:14] actually two jobs in New York for most [00:04:16] of my childhood. So, we were always [00:04:18] there back and forth. we were in quite [00:04:20] squarely in New York's media market. And [00:04:22] so big stories like this one and all [00:04:25] those polarizing stories from the 1980s [00:04:27] that people will remember, not just the [00:04:29] Central Park 5, but think about Tana [00:04:32] Broly and Bensonhurst and Crown Heights [00:04:34] and Howard Beach and the the AIDS and [00:04:38] the arrival of crack in 1985. And all of [00:04:41] these were part of our news consumption [00:04:45] at in 1980s New Jersey. And so I was [00:04:48] just taking this all in and really [00:04:49] getting to know this world that I craft [00:04:53] I think or describe in five bullets the [00:04:55] book. [00:04:56] >> So how did you [00:04:59] why did you decide to go to the [00:05:01] University of Pennsylvania and study [00:05:02] art? [00:05:03] >> [laughter] [00:05:04] >> You know, I have long been a believer [00:05:07] that unless you are an engineer, a [00:05:11] nurse, an architect or in some other [00:05:15] trade, [00:05:16] uh what you study as an undergrad does [00:05:19] not have a huge impact on where you end [00:05:22] up. And I [00:05:25] uh long even before getting to college [00:05:28] knew I wanted to study the humanities [00:05:29] wherever I would end up. I I thought I [00:05:31] would would ultimately end up going to [00:05:32] law school, but it was important to me [00:05:34] to study the humanities. So, I was an [00:05:35] art history major at the University of [00:05:37] Pennsylvania. And I can't tell you how [00:05:39] frequently I draw on not the not the [00:05:43] specifics of, you know, how do I tell a [00:05:44] carvagio from a Leonardo, not that at [00:05:47] all, but just how to think, how to [00:05:49] write, how to structure, [00:05:51] whether it's writing or stories or or [00:05:54] anything. And it's been invaluable to [00:05:55] me. [00:05:57] >> Why did you decide to get a master's in [00:05:59] journalism? Oh, well that that's where I [00:06:01] knew I was ultimately going to end up. I [00:06:03] felt, [00:06:04] you know, I I so I was in I did a joint [00:06:07] degree with the law the law school and [00:06:08] the journalism schools at Colombia and [00:06:10] made that decision pretty early on in [00:06:12] law school that I I might practice law [00:06:14] for some time, but ultimately wanted to [00:06:16] to become either a journalist or writer [00:06:19] or thinker about the law at least in a [00:06:22] you know in a for more public way. I um [00:06:25] I I think and Colombia, you know, I was [00:06:28] blessed to have ended up at a law school [00:06:30] that's a very prestigious one, but has [00:06:32] the most, if not the most, one of the [00:06:35] most um heralded journalism programs in [00:06:38] the country. And so, Colombia has an [00:06:40] opportunity for students to get that [00:06:41] joint degree where you combine the two [00:06:44] together. And it really was invaluable [00:06:46] for understanding media again, how to [00:06:48] report, how to write. Um many lawyers [00:06:51] can, most can't. And having that [00:06:54] journalism background really was [00:06:55] invaluable certainly for reporting this [00:06:57] book, but but for everything I do, the [00:07:00] work on CNN or wherever else. [00:07:03] >> How would you describe to someone that's [00:07:05] never been on a New York subway, what [00:07:07] it's like? [00:07:08] >> Well, that's two questions because if [00:07:10] it's what's it like in 1984 or what's it [00:07:13] like in 2026 are two very, very [00:07:15] different questions. In 2026, they're [00:07:18] fast trains with that don't really break [00:07:20] down all that much. They are silver and [00:07:24] glassy and airy and open and they there [00:07:28] isn't a lot of litter in them. They're [00:07:30] not covered in graffiti. There's the [00:07:31] voice of a transgender woman announcing [00:07:34] where your what your next stop is. [00:07:36] That's today. In 1984 and in the New [00:07:39] York that I describe in the book Five [00:07:41] Bullets, the New York City subway was [00:07:43] filthy. The trains were frequently [00:07:45] breaking down. There were fires [00:07:47] frequently. Um crime was was was [00:07:50] incredibly common. and the snatches and [00:07:52] grabs, the the purse stealings, the [00:07:56] necklaces being ripped off, the [00:07:58] assaults, the petty assaults. Um, the [00:08:01] train was covered in graffiti. Um, by [00:08:04] the early 1980s, everyone u every subway [00:08:07] car, I want to say it's 6,000, I could [00:08:10] get the number wrong, in New York City [00:08:11] was covered in graffiti. They were all [00:08:13] tagged up. They were all covered in [00:08:15] litter. They were all there was a point [00:08:17] at which the New York City Transit [00:08:19] Authority started placing a police [00:08:21] officer on every single train uh 24 [00:08:24] hours a day because of the amount of [00:08:27] unease and crime on that. So it was just [00:08:29] a very very different forum in 1984 than [00:08:33] it than it is today. [00:08:36] >> In your research for this book, where [00:08:38] did you go physically yourself to look [00:08:40] at? [00:08:41] >> The big one was the New York City [00:08:43] archives. And so I um there's plenty of [00:08:46] reporting that could be done from home, [00:08:48] the Zoom calls, the whatever else, and [00:08:51] then there there's archival material. So [00:08:53] I went through the entire trial [00:08:55] transcript, and more importantly, the [00:08:58] files of the district attorney and [00:09:00] prosecutors that could be made public. [00:09:03] And so I saw a lot of mail that had been [00:09:06] sent in to the DA uh and mayor at the [00:09:09] time about the case. And that was [00:09:11] incredibly enlightening only on account [00:09:12] of how immensely polarizing the case was [00:09:16] at the time, but also how many truly [00:09:20] bonkers things people send to elected [00:09:22] officials in the mail. I um I include in [00:09:26] the photo insert to Five Bullets. I [00:09:28] include a um a cartoon that someone had [00:09:31] drawn about Bernard Gats and just sent [00:09:34] into the mayor. people just wanted to [00:09:36] make their thoughts known and that was [00:09:39] it was colorful and graphic but also [00:09:41] gave you a sense of the zeitgeist in New [00:09:44] York City at the time. [00:09:46] >> I'm sure you've not talked about this [00:09:49] before, but we need to go back [00:09:51] >> and start from the beginning. [00:09:53] >> Okay, [00:09:54] >> the morning or whatever time of day it [00:09:56] was that uh this all happened. What what [00:09:59] what are the circumstances? [00:10:00] >> Okay, it's December 22nd, 1984. It's an [00:10:03] overcast day and sort of a warm day uh [00:10:06] as we're approaching Christmas. Bernard [00:10:08] gets was meeting some friends of his [00:10:12] that he'd gone to engineering school [00:10:13] with. He was going to get a drink with [00:10:14] them. And four teenagers, 18 and 19 year [00:10:17] old young men in the Bronx were heading [00:10:20] downtown in Manhattan to break open [00:10:23] video game machines. That was a common [00:10:25] way for teenagers to make money. Uh, [00:10:28] it's against the law, but in the 1980s, [00:10:31] video game machines were ubiquitous in [00:10:34] bars and bodeas and um bowling alleys, [00:10:37] wherever else, and kids would go down, [00:10:38] take a screwdriver, pop them open, and [00:10:40] take quarters out. Ultimately, at 14th [00:10:43] Street in lower Manhattan, they [00:10:44] converged on the same train. And the [00:10:48] four guys were acting up. They were [00:10:50] rowdy. They were making noise. They were [00:10:52] doing pull-ups, pounding the seats, [00:10:54] asking people for cigarettes and [00:10:55] matches. But they didn't mug or harm [00:10:57] anyone, but they were certainly causing [00:10:59] what some might call a disturbance, a [00:11:01] bother, a nuisance, or whatever else. [00:11:03] Bernard gets got on and one of the young [00:11:05] men approached him and either demanded [00:11:09] $5. Give me $5 or asked, "Can I have [00:11:13] $5?" That that's never been established [00:11:15] and there's competing evidence in the [00:11:17] record to suggest that either of those [00:11:18] happened. At that point, Bernard gets [00:11:20] who always carried a handgun. He had an [00:11:23] unlicensed firearm that he had on him. [00:11:25] Just opened fire. He thought he was [00:11:27] about to be mugged and just one, two, [00:11:28] three, four, five, fired off the five [00:11:30] bullets from the gun. One of the men um [00:11:34] he is believed to have stood guess is [00:11:36] believed to have stood over the young [00:11:38] man, shot him once and said, "You don't [00:11:41] look so bad. Here's another." And shot [00:11:43] him again. That guy, Troy Kanty, ended [00:11:46] up paralyzed from the midchest down. [00:11:48] That the bullet had severed his spinal [00:11:51] cord and ultimately went into a coma and [00:11:53] went came out brain damaged. So, he [00:11:55] ended up with the mental capacity [00:11:57] roughly of a 9-year-old uh thereafter. [00:12:00] After the shooting, Gats ran away, hid [00:12:02] in New Hampshire for a little while, [00:12:04] ultimately turned himself in, came back [00:12:07] to New York City, and was heralded as a [00:12:09] hero to many people. People saw him as [00:12:12] the vigilante who finally did what [00:12:14] needed to be done and he ended up being [00:12:17] quite celebrated by many many people [00:12:19] around New York. [00:12:21] You in in your book you tell the story [00:12:23] of how he got off the subway train. [00:12:29] Tell that story to run in the car and [00:12:31] where he went first [00:12:34] and nobody knew him. [00:12:36] >> Nobody knew who he was. He he just faded [00:12:39] into again this is 1984 so license plate [00:12:42] scanners and facial recognition and [00:12:45] credit card swipes that are instant uh [00:12:48] to to track us all where we are just [00:12:50] simply were not part of our lives. The [00:12:52] interesting detail that that I picked up [00:12:54] on in the book is that the whenever [00:12:59] there was uh news of a crime, a serious [00:13:03] crime happening on the subway, per [00:13:05] custom or per Metropolitan Transit [00:13:07] Authority practice, the driver would [00:13:09] always just stop the train dead in its [00:13:11] track, stop where it was so that [00:13:13] evidence or witnesses couldn't get off. [00:13:16] That's ultimately what enabled Bernard [00:13:18] gets his escape. When the when the the [00:13:21] the when the subway stopped, Gats sort [00:13:25] of panicked, grabbed his gun, and jumped [00:13:28] off because the train wasn't moving. He [00:13:30] ran up the tracks, climbed up a few [00:13:33] blocks later, climbed up to the ground [00:13:35] above, um went home, grabbed a duffel [00:13:38] bag, rented a car, and drove out of New [00:13:41] York City up to ultimately to New [00:13:43] Hampshire. and that he came back and [00:13:44] forth a couple times and had a few phone [00:13:47] calls, is believed to have transacted [00:13:49] some business along the way, but [00:13:51] ultimately ends up turning himself in in [00:13:53] New Hampshire, miles from the incident. [00:13:57] >> I This probably is a little bit out of [00:13:59] context, but your chapter when uh you [00:14:02] talked about um I'm looking for her [00:14:04] name, Myra Myra. [00:14:05] >> Myra Freedman. Yeah, [00:14:06] >> Freriedman. Tell that Tell the Myra [00:14:08] Freedman story because that seemed to [00:14:10] expose a lot of what [00:14:12] >> Absolutely. So he um he was not close to [00:14:15] this individual named Myra Freriedman. [00:14:17] She was his downstairs neighbor and she [00:14:19] was a quirky figure. People every [00:14:22] multiple people two different sources [00:14:25] I'd interviewed or read about referred [00:14:27] to her like um Ernestine from Rowan and [00:14:31] Martin's laughing. Uh she's Lily Tomlin. [00:14:33] This quirky big glasses, big hair, fur [00:14:36] coat and this woman. She was a [00:14:38] journalist and she was actually Janice [00:14:40] Joplain's publicist. the musician Janice [00:14:42] Joplin's publicist. So she was on, you [00:14:45] know, she was just a a big personality. [00:14:47] Well, she lived the floor beneath [00:14:48] Bernard Gat. And one day she was taking [00:14:52] a nap on a Saturday afternoon. They [00:14:53] weren't friends. They would see each [00:14:55] other in she taking a nap on a Saturday [00:14:57] afternoon. The phone rang. It's Myra. [00:14:59] It's Bernie. And she said, "Bernney [00:15:01] who?" She didn't even know who he was. [00:15:03] He said, "Bernney gets your neighbor." [00:15:04] "Oh, Bernie, what? What's going on?" [00:15:06] Eventually, he reveals to her. She [00:15:09] figures out that he's the guy the police [00:15:11] are looking for and rather than give him [00:15:15] advice to turn himself in or call the [00:15:18] police, she actually took out a tape [00:15:20] recorder and just started recording [00:15:21] their conversation. She saw this in many [00:15:24] ways as her next big break, the story [00:15:27] that was going to catapult her to fame [00:15:29] or whatever else. She ended up selling [00:15:31] that story of a transcript of their [00:15:33] conversation to New York Magazine for [00:15:35] $4,000. [00:15:37] But in that phone call, Bernie gets [00:15:40] rails against the state, the city, how [00:15:44] they don't care for us, how uh they are [00:15:49] they're failing in their duties. Then he [00:15:51] started talking about war and violence [00:15:54] and guns and how he knows how to sh just [00:15:57] a meandering probably half hour of he [00:16:00] just monologued and I include some of [00:16:02] that in the book. The other thing Myer [00:16:04] Freedman did was that she tipped him off [00:16:06] that the police had left notes for him. [00:16:07] The police had come to the apartment [00:16:10] building [00:16:12] looking for Bernard Gats and left notes [00:16:13] in his mailbox and under his door and [00:16:15] and she told him, "Bernney, you know [00:16:16] that they're looking for you. Perhaps [00:16:18] you might want to consider turning [00:16:19] yourself in." And the police ultimately [00:16:22] credit the notes that they left for him [00:16:24] with being the thing that spurked [00:16:26] Bernard sp that spooked Bernard gets [00:16:28] enough to want to turn himself in. and [00:16:30] he ultimately did nine days later in New [00:16:33] Hampshire. [00:16:34] >> You sent me to YouTube. [00:16:37] >> Uh you didn't know that you were sending [00:16:38] me to YouTube. Okay. [00:16:39] >> To watch [00:16:41] the confession. [00:16:42] >> All right. [00:16:44] >> And I must say, if you haven't ever seen [00:16:47] it, you got to go there. [00:16:49] >> It's it's just [00:16:50] >> what are the circumstances? [00:16:52] >> It's remarkable. So, um and there's [00:16:54] there's some fun stories there, too. And [00:16:56] I talk about a lot of this in the book [00:16:57] Five Bullets. the the lead prosecutor, [00:17:01] she was skiing in Vermont um and rushed [00:17:05] overnight or even within hours to get to [00:17:09] the conquered New New Hampshire Police [00:17:11] Department to start interviewing Bernard [00:17:12] Gets. And he gave a series of recorded [00:17:16] confessions to police and he he [00:17:18] confesses to the crime. He says, "It [00:17:20] intended to murder those guys. I wanted [00:17:22] them to suffer as much as possible. I [00:17:24] wanted to gouge their eyes out with my [00:17:26] keys, but I changed my mind." And he's [00:17:28] talking about his anger and his fear and [00:17:29] his shame. And I felt like a rat that [00:17:32] was about to be butchered. I was an [00:17:34] animal. And he just a meandering [00:17:37] I think four hours or three hours of [00:17:40] confessions up in New Hampshire. He it's [00:17:43] an iconic image in many respects of [00:17:45] Bernard Gets. He's sit he's just seated [00:17:49] by himself just monologuing. Now, he [00:17:52] expressed a lot of contempt for the [00:17:54] people who were there interviewing him [00:17:55] and particularly contempt for the [00:17:58] prosecutor. He did not like whenever [00:18:00] Susan Braver opened her mouth. He said [00:18:03] he hates New York accents. He hates [00:18:06] hearing New Yorkers speak, which is [00:18:07] which is itself very odd that he given [00:18:10] that he'd lived there for something like [00:18:11] 25 years or whatever it was at that [00:18:13] point and had grown up not far outside [00:18:15] of the city. But he hated Susan Braver. [00:18:18] He he said that these yokeals ultimately [00:18:21] in New Hampshire could not understand [00:18:23] crime and safety and it was all silly. [00:18:26] Ultimately getting to the point that he [00:18:28] believed it was a big misunderstanding [00:18:29] and they they would just let him go. He [00:18:31] hadn't even fed the meter of his car [00:18:35] when he parked at the police station and [00:18:36] turned himself in cuz he thought it was [00:18:38] just going to blow over. [00:18:40] >> I wrote down [clears throat] [00:18:42] three or four things that he said at the [00:18:44] beginning. I'm no hero. I am a coward. I [00:18:48] was a vicious killer. I snapped. [00:18:51] >> Yeah. You know, the interesting thing [00:18:53] it's a a fascinating that confession [00:18:56] tape and I and I include a bunch of it [00:18:59] in the book is an interesting mix of [00:19:03] anger and shame, boastfulness and [00:19:07] regret, [00:19:08] um fear and brazeness. He just pingpongs [00:19:11] back and forth between a range of human [00:19:14] emotions. And you can see that he's [00:19:16] disgusted with himself and what what he [00:19:19] did, but also in many ways proud of [00:19:23] having stepped in where he felt the [00:19:26] police and the mayor and the authorities [00:19:29] did not. So if it's hard to if you were [00:19:31] to ask if anyone were to ask the [00:19:33] question, what's Bernie gets like on his [00:19:36] confession video? There's no one emotion [00:19:37] because he ping pongs through all of [00:19:39] them. It's it's it's almost a like a [00:19:42] split personality or a series of split [00:19:44] personalities [00:19:46] um with someone who's both feeling [00:19:49] revulsion at himself and his actions, [00:19:51] but also anger and pride in the same [00:19:55] actions. [00:19:56] >> Describe him. How who was he at the [00:19:58] time? How tall is he? How much does he [00:20:01] weigh? What's he look like? Yeah, he's a [00:20:03] he's a skinny 37year-old [00:20:06] be spectacled white guy with blonde [00:20:08] hair. The best most vivid description [00:20:11] and this was from the parillegal that [00:20:13] worked on his case. Uh she described him [00:20:16] as a nerdy pocket protector kind of guy. [00:20:19] He was meek. He was timid. He sort of [00:20:21] had a hunch in the way he walked. He was [00:20:23] not uh what anyone would call a tough [00:20:27] guy. In fact, I introduce the chapter [00:20:30] about him. Uh, I start the chapter by [00:20:33] talking about if if if listeners [00:20:35] remember the Charles Atlas dynamic [00:20:38] fitness cartoons in comic books where [00:20:42] you could pay money to Charles Atlas to [00:20:44] teach you how to become a beefcake. [00:20:46] Well, he's that guy, the little runty [00:20:49] guy in those cartoons. It's just this [00:20:52] archetype. And I actually think Brian, [00:20:54] part of what was such an attractive [00:20:57] fantasy for the public about Bernard [00:20:59] gets was the fact that he was so meek [00:21:02] and timid and feeble. The idea that [00:21:05] someone like that could quote unquote [00:21:08] finally stand up to the forces of [00:21:10] disorder really was very attractive to [00:21:12] many people. [00:21:13] >> In your kod at the end of the book, you [00:21:16] talk about the interview, the 46minute [00:21:18] interview. Did you see him in person? [00:21:20] >> I did not. It was over Zoom. We had [00:21:22] emailed we had emailed a bunch um and [00:21:26] then we had you know he told me we set [00:21:30] up a phone call and I and I picked up [00:21:31] the phone and called him and oh and I [00:21:34] would go further. I I offered to come up [00:21:37] and and and meet in in person with him [00:21:39] another time uh just to just to talk [00:21:42] further and interview further and he [00:21:44] said you have enough for your book as it [00:21:46] is. I enjoy reading I'll enjoy reading [00:21:48] it at some point and just sort of let it [00:21:49] go there. [00:21:52] >> Still in Manhattan, still in the same [00:21:53] place he's lived in the village in [00:21:55] Manhattan. Um, oddly enough, and and the [00:21:59] the interview with him was was truly [00:22:01] bonkers as a journalistic or social [00:22:04] matter. Just he's just all over the [00:22:06] place, meandering, rambling. a lot of [00:22:08] what I talked about in the book and as [00:22:11] we were talking about just a moment ago [00:22:12] in that confession tape, he's sort of [00:22:15] like that in person. Um, brazen, almost [00:22:18] proud of having committed the shooting. [00:22:20] Um, but really all over the place. Um, [00:22:24] and still still emails me his thoughts [00:22:26] from time to time, which is a little [00:22:28] odd. Um, but yeah, it's just it's it's a [00:22:31] fascinating figure to have to have [00:22:33] intersected with. [00:22:35] We'll get back to him in a second, but [00:22:37] you're a lawyer. [00:22:38] >> Yeah. [00:22:40] >> Anybody that watches CNN sees you [00:22:42] analyzing the world. Um, [clears throat] [00:22:45] but go back to when as you're writing [00:22:47] this book, you're an attorney. [00:22:49] >> You've been a clerk. [00:22:51] >> Yeah. [00:22:51] >> Where did you clerk? [00:22:52] >> I clerked uh for two different federal [00:22:54] judges on the Southern District of [00:22:55] Florida, which is West Palm Beach, [00:22:57] Florida, and then and then on the 11th [00:22:59] Circuit. That's the appeals court that [00:23:00] serves Florida, Alabama, and Georgia. [00:23:03] Have you been a prosecutor? [00:23:04] >> I have been a prosecutor. I was a a [00:23:06] justice department federal prosecutor [00:23:08] for for some time right after I cleared. [00:23:11] >> So you've been in some of these the [00:23:13] district court here in in the city and [00:23:16] tried a case. [00:23:17] >> Yeah. Um uh yeah absolutely. [00:23:20] >> So the reason I'm asking all this is [00:23:22] because in the book you go through [00:23:24] eventually all the legalisms of the [00:23:26] trial itself. [00:23:27] >> Yeah. Yeah. What was more interesting to [00:23:29] you, the the the sociology around this [00:23:33] or the legal part of this? [00:23:35] >> 100% to a mathematical certainty without [00:23:38] a doubt. Book it. This is one without [00:23:42] hesitation. Everything but the law was [00:23:45] most interesting to me. I thought that I [00:23:47] was coming to writing a just a an [00:23:50] interesting law book in that it would, [00:23:52] you know, I just write about the law [00:23:53] like I talk about the law every day on [00:23:54] CNN or or other places. goodness. [00:23:57] Writing about the one, writing about New [00:24:00] York in a colorful way as I do for the [00:24:03] first 150 or so pages of Five Bullets [00:24:06] where I tell the true crime story was [00:24:08] far and away the most joyous aspect of [00:24:10] this writing exercise. just a lot of it [00:24:13] took me back to places that I remember [00:24:15] as a kid, but also just writing [00:24:17] colorfully and vividly about a place and [00:24:21] a time and a single event from the [00:24:23] perspective of multiple people was was [00:24:25] was absolutely enjoyable. The the law [00:24:28] parts were the hardest to write, Brian. [00:24:31] Um, and I'll tell you why. I just I [00:24:34] understand the concept of transactional [00:24:36] immunity and grand jury secrecy and so [00:24:38] on and I know what the law says but [00:24:41] making that digestible and enjoyable for [00:24:45] a non-legal audience is actually quite [00:24:47] difficult. And it took a few rounds of [00:24:50] edits going back and forth with the [00:24:51] editor to really turn that portion of [00:24:54] the book to be as fun to read as the [00:24:57] other portions of the book. And I think [00:24:59] I got there. Um, but I will just confess [00:25:02] writing lawyers are not known for their [00:25:04] ability to make the things that they [00:25:05] talk about accessible or enjoyable. And [00:25:08] that was a priority for me, making it [00:25:10] such that, and certainly for my editor, [00:25:13] Casey Dennis at Penguin. Um, certainly [00:25:17] making it such that I'm not just telling [00:25:20] people what the law says, but investing [00:25:22] them in the characters who are at the [00:25:24] center of it and making them curious to [00:25:27] want to read further on. [00:25:30] How did he get back from New Hampshire [00:25:32] to New York City? And what happened to [00:25:34] him then? [00:25:34] >> Oh, he was transported by New York City [00:25:37] police officers. So, as soon as he [00:25:39] walked into the police department, the [00:25:41] the folks in conquered called New York, [00:25:43] they sent up a caravan of folks from New [00:25:46] York and Susan Braver, the prosecutor [00:25:48] who was skiing came down uh to Vermont, [00:25:51] came down from Vermont to New Hampshire [00:25:53] that or came across. Now, the when he [00:25:55] got back to New York, he really was [00:25:57] heralded as somewhat of a hero. I think [00:25:59] the, you know, I one of the highways in [00:26:03] New York had a billboard, [00:26:06] congratulations to the vigilante. New [00:26:08] York loves you. And that was common. The [00:26:11] bumper stickers, the t-shirts, something [00:26:14] about this guy touched something [00:26:17] powerful in people and they just wanted [00:26:20] to embrace and celebrate. It wasn't [00:26:22] universal. Not everybody did, but I I [00:26:26] would be lying if I said there wasn't a [00:26:28] widespread amount of support and [00:26:31] adoration for this person even before [00:26:33] they knew who he was. [00:26:36] How much did at that time when he was [00:26:38] brought back to New York City, did the [00:26:39] public know about what he had said in in [00:26:43] the confession? I mean, did they have [00:26:44] any idea of the quirkiness of his [00:26:47] >> Yeah. [00:26:47] >> his patter? [00:26:48] >> No. Over time, the quirkiness started [00:26:51] coming out. But honestly, and this is [00:26:54] what I found so fascinating about the [00:26:55] reporting and writing here. Um, it [00:26:58] really was when Bernard gets was an idea [00:27:02] to New York City. He really was just an [00:27:04] idea. Just all people knew is that there [00:27:06] were four black guys, there was a white [00:27:08] guy with a gun, something went down, he [00:27:10] shot them and ran away. And that's all [00:27:12] people needed to turbocharge [00:27:14] support for this act and for this [00:27:17] individual. It was it was very [00:27:20] reductive. That's literally people had [00:27:22] very few details. They didn't know about [00:27:23] him, his identity, why he did it, the [00:27:26] particulars of even what was said. [00:27:27] People just felt they knew in their [00:27:30] hearts that these guys mugged that [00:27:33] innocent man and he just defended [00:27:36] himself even before a single piece of [00:27:38] testimony came out, before guess his [00:27:40] name was made public, anything. And [00:27:42] that's interesting. What is it about [00:27:44] just the contours of a story that make [00:27:47] people want to latch on to it and [00:27:48] embrace it? And I think some of that was [00:27:52] um just the idea of Bernard gets this [00:27:54] white guy shooting four black guys who [00:27:55] were hassling him in the trains that [00:27:58] were rough and all the newspapers ran [00:28:00] with it. [00:28:01] >> By the way, how many of those four are [00:28:04] still alive? [00:28:05] >> Two are still alive. One died in prison [00:28:08] uh in 2018. [00:28:10] one died in an apparent suicide in in [00:28:13] 2011. It was the 27th anniversary of the [00:28:16] shooting. He was actually found uh in a [00:28:19] hotel room in following what is believed [00:28:23] to have been a suicide, but but still [00:28:25] inconclusive. [00:28:27] >> Where's the fellow that is had brain [00:28:29] damage and was paralyzed from the waist [00:28:32] down? So, I tried desperately to talk, [00:28:36] if not to him, to members of his family [00:28:38] to get them on the record. Um, none of [00:28:40] them wanted to, uh, you know, I got as [00:28:43] close as phone calls with two of his [00:28:45] sisters. He's outside of New York City. [00:28:47] Doesn't like coming back that much. Um, [00:28:50] and and that's it. Um, but uh, again, [00:28:54] that was that was the closest I got to [00:28:56] speaking to one of the four. And it was [00:28:58] important to me as a as a journalist, as [00:29:00] a writer to try to speak to everybody, [00:29:03] including Bernard Gats. Um, and I note [00:29:06] in the preface to the book Five Bullets, [00:29:09] you know, how much I wanted to speak to [00:29:12] these young men, but also tragically a [00:29:15] lot of what is publicly available about [00:29:17] them from the 1980s is information about [00:29:19] their criminal histories. And that's in [00:29:21] many respects how we get to know them [00:29:23] through the book. Um, and I and I and [00:29:25] I'm upfront about that. I wish this were [00:29:28] not the case. I have tried to [00:29:30] reconstruct as much of their family [00:29:31] lives and their histories and their [00:29:33] their sort of essence from what was [00:29:35] available, but they chose not to cooper [00:29:37] choose not to be interviewed for the [00:29:39] book. [00:29:40] >> Whose idea was it to call it five [00:29:42] bullets? [00:29:43] >> That's a great, you know, it's I think [00:29:46] mine um I I'd have to think about that. [00:29:49] Why I went with five bullets is that [00:29:51] there's actually some mystery to the [00:29:53] fifth bullet. I'd said, remember, if you [00:29:55] notice, I when I talked about Daryl KB, [00:29:58] the young man who's paralyzed, I believe [00:30:00] what I'd said was gets is believed to [00:30:02] have stood over him and shot him twice, [00:30:05] saying, "You don't look so bad. Here's [00:30:07] another." There's an open question as to [00:30:09] where the five bullet the fifth bullet [00:30:11] went only because at the end of the day [00:30:15] after the shooting had happened, police [00:30:16] discovered a bullet hole in one of the [00:30:19] side panels of the train car suggesting [00:30:22] that there was at least one errant [00:30:24] bullet that there was um either an [00:30:28] errant bullet or a ricochet or something [00:30:30] and they they could just never really [00:30:32] piece together where the fifth bullet [00:30:34] went. So, five bullets is a reduction of [00:30:37] the story to what happened with this [00:30:38] firearm, but open also an open question [00:30:41] as to exactly what happened here. We we [00:30:43] we still 41 plus years later don't know [00:30:46] exactly what did. [00:30:49] >> So, what did the New York police do with [00:30:51] Gats once they got him back in New York [00:30:53] City? Well, he's ultimately um he's [00:30:55] ultimately charged with just gun [00:30:59] possession [00:31:00] and then subsequently charged a second [00:31:03] time with gun possession, attempted [00:31:05] homicide and attempted assault and [00:31:07] reckless endangerment of people for [00:31:09] shooting in the car. So he I talk [00:31:14] through the sort of hamfisted efforts by [00:31:17] the prosecutor to keep an eye on public [00:31:20] opinion and watch what hap you know just [00:31:23] be conscious of how the public was [00:31:25] really sour on these victims and many of [00:31:27] the public were supporting the shooter. [00:31:30] Um so I I go through Robert Morganthaw's [00:31:32] thought process where wait a second we [00:31:34] think a we the prosecutors believe a [00:31:36] crime has been committed here. However, [00:31:39] it's a prosecuting this defendant is [00:31:41] going to come at a huge political cost [00:31:43] to us. And I sort of detail how how that [00:31:46] transpired, but ultimately they felt the [00:31:49] prosecutors felt that there was a crime [00:31:51] and charged him with with the with those [00:31:53] violent crime offenses, assault, [00:31:55] homicide, reckless endangerment. [00:31:57] >> How many grand juries were there around [00:31:59] this case? [00:32:00] >> Two. There was the first one that was [00:32:02] impanled that only returned an [00:32:04] indictment for illegal gun possession [00:32:07] and then a second one that returned [00:32:08] indictment for illegal gun possession [00:32:10] and murder, attempted murder, attempted [00:32:13] assault and reckless endangerment. [00:32:16] >> Any of the grand jurors ever talk? [00:32:18] >> No grand jurors ever talk. A few of the [00:32:20] jurors have talked and I spoke I spoke [00:32:22] to one of the jurors at length and um at [00:32:24] length and then connected with two of [00:32:26] two others less so but but certainly um [00:32:30] fruitfully but none of the grand jurors [00:32:33] have ever talked and I and the problem [00:32:34] with the grand jury not the problem the [00:32:37] great thing about the grand jury in the [00:32:38] American system is that it's secret and [00:32:40] we don't know who grand jurors are. So, [00:32:42] I will respect that. But no, I've never [00:32:44] heard from a grand juror or or anyone [00:32:46] who wrote a piece about this case and [00:32:50] spoke with a grand juror. [00:32:52] >> By the way, when the grand jury meets, [00:32:54] who's in the room? [00:32:55] >> It's typically it's just a prosecutor. [00:33:00] Some circumstances a defense attorney [00:33:02] can be in the room. Um, but really it's [00:33:04] just it's it's an arm. Grand juries are [00:33:07] not an arm of the court. They're an arm [00:33:08] of the prosecutor. And really, it's just [00:33:10] the prosecutor and the witness. And [00:33:12] really, anything goes in a grand jury. [00:33:14] Prosecutors can ask just about anything. [00:33:17] Hearsay rules don't apply. They're just [00:33:19] trying to get charges um [00:33:24] established that there's probable cause, [00:33:26] which means it's more likely than not [00:33:28] that something illegal happened. [00:33:30] >> No judge in the room. [00:33:31] >> No judge in the room for a grand jury. [00:33:33] No. [00:33:33] >> How many I know I've seen this number so [00:33:36] many times, like between 16 and 23. [00:33:38] >> 16 and 23. Yeah. Exactly. [00:33:40] >> Why why that 16 and 23? [00:33:43] >> That's a great question and I don't know [00:33:44] the answer to why how it got set at 16 [00:33:47] to 23 and why juries typically are 12. [00:33:50] Um it you know I just don't know the [00:33:53] answer to that. How that's one of those [00:33:54] arcane things that goes back early to [00:33:56] the founding of the country and um and [00:33:58] it varies from jurisdiction to [00:33:59] jurisdiction. Some will be smaller, some [00:34:01] will be some will be bigger. But I don't [00:34:02] know how it ever why we landed on that [00:34:05] number. But you need 12 of those jurors [00:34:08] in order to indict. [00:34:09] >> Exactly. A majority. It's not It's not [00:34:11] like a um a trial where the outcome must [00:34:15] be unanimous. Um either way to acquit or [00:34:19] convict. Here for a grand jury, you just [00:34:22] have to have prosecutors just have to [00:34:23] have a majority a majority of the folks [00:34:26] who are there. [00:34:28] >> So from the moment of the actual [00:34:30] shooting to the trial itself, how long [00:34:34] >> the shooting was? December 22nd, 1984. [00:34:36] And the actual trial doesn't happen till [00:34:39] 1987 because there's a big issue. I [00:34:42] mean, look, trials take a long time. [00:34:44] That's that's if there's any civil [00:34:46] service I can provide to the non- [00:34:47] lawyers in the world that it's the [00:34:50] recognition of the fact that litigation [00:34:51] takes a very very long time. Now the big [00:34:54] thing that happened here was a year was [00:34:57] burned [00:34:59] on a question of a a complicated legal [00:35:02] question about reasonleness and the [00:35:04] definition in New York law of what is [00:35:07] quote unquote reasonable in the context [00:35:10] of one's use of self-defense. And [00:35:13] ultimately the case went all the way up [00:35:15] to the New York State Court of Appeals, [00:35:16] the highest court in New York that [00:35:18] helped define this notion of [00:35:20] reasonleness that would govern Bernard [00:35:23] Gets case and governs New York law [00:35:25] today. It's still in place. [00:35:27] >> When did the New Yorkers or even the [00:35:29] nation ever hear the voice of Bernard [00:35:32] Gett and what did he say? So, um, his [00:35:36] voice is on the audio recording from the [00:35:41] New Hampshire confession and I believe [00:35:43] it was ABC News played parts of that. [00:35:46] And remember, Brian, you'd asked earlier [00:35:47] in our conversation, when did the did [00:35:49] the public ever start turning on Bernard [00:35:51] Gats? They didn't quite turn on him, but [00:35:53] when bits and pieces of that confession [00:35:56] tape came out, the public started seeing [00:35:59] him as a little more complex because of [00:36:01] some of the the truly vicious things he [00:36:03] says on that confession tape. But not [00:36:07] Bernett's voice has not been public to a [00:36:09] lot of people. It's there's the [00:36:11] confession tape. He'll show up now in [00:36:14] some news interviews. you know, on Fox [00:36:16] News or wherever else in the context of [00:36:19] of you know, if there's shootings, [00:36:20] sometimes he's called on as a guest. He [00:36:22] doesn't and did not back then speak out [00:36:24] publicly all that often. [00:36:27] >> How did how long did it take him to [00:36:29] select a jury? [00:36:30] >> 4 months. It was from December through [00:36:32] April. It jury selection takes a long [00:36:34] time. it just finding and and there's an [00:36:36] interesting anecdote here when on the [00:36:39] very first day of jury selection when [00:36:41] the judge it was December of 86 when the [00:36:44] judge called everybody in and and bang [00:36:47] the gavl in to start the session when [00:36:50] Bernard gets walked in a few dozen [00:36:52] prospective jurors started applauding. [00:36:55] So it was an incredibly difficult [00:36:59] exercise to determine who it was [00:37:03] incredibly difficult exercise to find 12 [00:37:05] people who could purport to set aside [00:37:08] their feelings and try the case [00:37:10] carefully and the prosecutor Gregory [00:37:12] Waples also whom I interviewed for the [00:37:14] book he felt that the whole trial was a [00:37:16] fool's errand for him knowing how strong [00:37:19] the currents were working in Bur gets [00:37:21] his favor once that jury was seated. [00:37:23] Wasn't Waples the same age as Bernie [00:37:26] gets? [00:37:26] >> Around the same age. He was in his 30s. [00:37:29] Um, and was sort of at the height of his [00:37:31] powers as a prosecutor. He was a [00:37:34] heralded [00:37:36] figure in the office. He was a young [00:37:38] lieutenant, for lack of a better term, [00:37:40] of Robert Morganthaw and really regarded [00:37:42] as the best of the best among the [00:37:44] attorneys um, in that office. He was a [00:37:47] just a really smart, sharp, strong [00:37:49] prosecutor. Do you happen to remember [00:37:52] how many years Morgan Thaw was a [00:37:53] district attorney? [00:37:55] >> Oh god. I know it's I think he he leaves [00:37:57] in 2008 and I believe it's um in the [00:38:01] late 1960s is when he first comes in. Um [00:38:04] I believe I don't have it off the top of [00:38:06] my head but it's decades not years. It's [00:38:08] the greater part of multiple generations [00:38:10] that he was district attorney in [00:38:12] Manhattan. [00:38:14] >> You just Well, I should ask you about [00:38:16] Barry Znik who just died in August. Um [00:38:19] Mark Baker died recently. Um Slotnik was [00:38:24] a um and and believe it or not, Mark [00:38:26] Baker died during the reporting of this [00:38:29] book, Slotnik's Partner. Um and I Baker [00:38:32] probably of all the sources I talked to [00:38:34] for the book, I probably interacted with [00:38:36] Mark Baker the most. Um both over phone, [00:38:39] over email, over Zoom, um he he just he [00:38:42] was an invaluable source for the book. [00:38:44] And it was um you know you you try to [00:38:46] remain detached as a journalist or [00:38:49] writer but you know but but it was you [00:38:51] know it's always painful to lose someone [00:38:53] that you had worked somewhat closely [00:38:55] with on something that's important to [00:38:56] you and I and I note that in the preface [00:38:58] to the book. It's almost a paragraph [00:39:00] long obituary for Mark Baker and my [00:39:02] gratitude for having worked with him. [00:39:04] But Slotnik Barry Slotnik was a [00:39:07] immensely colorful New York attorney. He [00:39:11] was had he hated being identified as a [00:39:14] mob lawyer even though much of his [00:39:18] career prior to representing Bernard [00:39:20] gets was representing members of the [00:39:23] five families in New York law in New [00:39:25] York organized crime. He had been the [00:39:27] attorney for Joseph Columbbo, one of the [00:39:31] um the heads of the the Columbbo crime [00:39:33] family and but he hated that term and [00:39:38] was reluctant at first to represent [00:39:40] Bernard Gats thinking that you know h [00:39:42] even though I I represent people as they [00:39:46] go through the system and I am here to [00:39:48] defend people's rights I don't represent [00:39:50] guys who shoot young black kids [00:39:52] ultimately his words it was and I It was [00:39:56] the when he the first time he went to [00:39:58] Bernard Gats's house and saw all the TV [00:40:01] cameras and all the news reporters [00:40:03] camped outside that he decided to take [00:40:05] on the case because he knew the amount [00:40:07] of publicity he would get for working on [00:40:10] this case would be would far outweigh [00:40:13] any unease he had with it and ultimately [00:40:15] that's why Barry Slutnik took the case [00:40:17] on. But a colorful spellbinding attorney [00:40:20] to watch and practice his craft. [00:40:24] Did either Slutnik or Baker make any [00:40:27] money off this? [00:40:28] >> They did not. They lost a lot of money [00:40:30] on it. Um because the defense funds for [00:40:33] Bernard Gats were just, you know, you're [00:40:36] talking about something like the greater [00:40:38] part of several years of roundthe-clock [00:40:41] work on litigation, including appeals [00:40:43] that went up to the courts, this the [00:40:45] highest court in New York State. And no, [00:40:47] it was a it was it was really a loss [00:40:49] leader for them. And in part when [00:40:50] Bernard gets was ultimately sued for $50 [00:40:53] million by one of the victims, [00:40:57] Baker and Slottnik decided not to take [00:40:59] the case on one because they they saw [00:41:02] themselves as criminal defense [00:41:03] attorneys, not big-time appeals or civil [00:41:07] lawyers and didn't feel that they should [00:41:10] be taking on a big civil lawsuit. But [00:41:12] two, they lost a lot of money on the [00:41:14] case and as a practical matter, they [00:41:15] just they sort of cut bait after that [00:41:18] first in, you know, after the first [00:41:20] trial with Bernard Gats. [00:41:22] >> How long did the trial last? [00:41:24] >> The trial it well the the criminal trial [00:41:26] itself um not counting those four months [00:41:29] of jury selection went from April to [00:41:31] early June. So a month a month and a [00:41:34] couple weeks. [00:41:34] >> What was Justice Crane like? [00:41:37] >> Justice Crane and here's where I also [00:41:39] have personal views. I I just enjoyed [00:41:43] speaking with Justice Crane. He was just [00:41:45] an affable, warm man. And virtually [00:41:47] everybody who spoke about him just had [00:41:51] kind words for his calm, his equipoise, [00:41:55] his mastery of the law. He was certainly [00:41:59] a a a skilled [00:42:01] scholar of the law and actually had [00:42:04] ambitions of moving on to higher courts [00:42:07] but saw those thwarted by having worked [00:42:09] on such a high-profile case and and it [00:42:11] just drew negative attention from all [00:42:13] sides. But everybody was was incredibly [00:42:15] fond of Justice Crane. The only [00:42:18] slight criticism I got from all the [00:42:20] people I talked to was Gregory Waples [00:42:22] who felt that Justice Crane was so [00:42:24] cautious about protecting the rights of [00:42:26] the defendant Bernard gets that he [00:42:29] ultimately gave them victories that he [00:42:31] did not need to because he was just too [00:42:33] cautious. But by way of example, Mark [00:42:36] Baker called Justice Crane the ultimate [00:42:38] mench. He called him just the kindest [00:42:40] guy who was warm. One of the courts [00:42:43] court sketch artists. somebody who's not [00:42:46] even one of his employees after the [00:42:49] months or years after the trial had [00:42:51] Justice Crane marry her at her wedding [00:42:54] just because of the fondness and warmth [00:42:56] that he seemed to engender among all the [00:42:59] people who came his way. [00:43:01] >> You say that Justice Crane was [00:43:03] determined to keep race out of that [00:43:05] courtroom. [00:43:06] >> He was. Now, of course, race was not [00:43:09] part of the charges as it might have [00:43:11] been, say, in a civil rights suit or [00:43:13] something like that where if I if if [00:43:16] there was an allegation that Bern gets [00:43:19] shot the boys because they were black, [00:43:20] which is a crime under federal civil [00:43:22] rights law, of course, you can talk [00:43:23] about race in the courtroom. Justice [00:43:25] Crane did not want any any references to [00:43:28] anyone's race. Even now, that's a noble [00:43:32] goal, but in a case in which race was [00:43:35] certainly a backdrop in the city at the [00:43:37] time, um, and how people saw the case, [00:43:40] my goodness, it was almost a roar shock [00:43:43] test about race. But beyond that, um, [00:43:47] the defense was not shy. And Curtis [00:43:50] Leewa, who just ran for mayor of New [00:43:53] York, he ran founded the patrol group, [00:43:56] the Guardian Angels. When I interviewed [00:43:57] him, he was unabashed about the fact [00:44:00] that the defense team, which he was a [00:44:01] part of, tried to step as close to the [00:44:05] line of stoking the jury's racial fears [00:44:07] and making the jury reminded that these [00:44:10] were four young black men from the [00:44:12] Bronx. So there was actually [00:44:15] quite deliberate attempts by the defense [00:44:18] to bring race into the court, but [00:44:19] Justice Crane was immensely cautious [00:44:21] about even about being on the record [00:44:24] about it. And in some regards that might [00:44:27] have been a miscalculation and he could [00:44:29] have stopped the defense from going [00:44:31] there as they did. [00:44:33] >> You describe the building and the [00:44:36] courtroom area. Would you tell us what [00:44:38] it was like then? Oh, so picture Bonfire [00:44:41] of the Vanities, these 1960s [00:44:45] era dingy, brutalist blocks of cement in [00:44:49] downtown New York City. The jury room [00:44:54] did not have any chairs that matched. [00:44:56] There were 12 seats or 14 seats in the [00:44:59] jury room and they were all different. [00:45:01] The lacquer is peeling off the table. [00:45:04] They decorated it with a poster of a [00:45:07] woman in a bikini for a Jamaica poster [00:45:10] uh tourism ad. Um in the courtroom, the [00:45:13] benches were hard and wooden. There was [00:45:16] paneling that obstructed the jury's view [00:45:19] because of how poorly constructed and [00:45:21] non-ergonomic the courtroom was. The [00:45:24] acoustics were terrible. Um when they [00:45:26] tried to play the confession videos, the [00:45:29] it was hot. Remember I told you the [00:45:33] trial lasted from April into June. Well, [00:45:37] in late May of 1987, for folks who [00:45:40] remember, there was a historic heatwave [00:45:44] around Memorial Day in New York City. [00:45:47] And the courtroom felt like, and this is [00:45:50] uh in the description of I want to say [00:45:51] Greg Waples, about 90 degrees inside the [00:45:54] courtroom. Just the hallways of the [00:45:56] court were air conditioned, but the [00:45:58] court somehow the courtroom was not. and [00:46:01] attorneys and witnesses and jurors were [00:46:03] nodding off asleep and Justice Crane had [00:46:05] to repeatedly call breaks to keep people [00:46:09] focused and engaged. It was just not the [00:46:13] kind of even for a government building [00:46:15] just the kind of what we think of when [00:46:17] we think of courouses today. [00:46:19] >> Is that courtroom still there? [00:46:21] >> Oh, of course the courtroom in the [00:46:22] courthouse is still there. It's still [00:46:24] one 111 Center Street in lower [00:46:27] Manhattan. It's still used. It's been [00:46:28] modernized a little bit, but there are [00:46:30] still quaint practices even as a vestage [00:46:33] of the old days. They still pick juries [00:46:35] in that court by spinning a uh like a [00:46:38] lottery ticket drum and pulling out the [00:46:41] names of jurors uh as the p this next [00:46:44] prospected person to come up. So old is [00:46:47] kind of new in New York and I talk about [00:46:49] some of that in the book Five Bullets. [00:46:51] um some of these uh practices that just [00:46:54] or just the look and feel of this old, [00:46:58] hot, dingy, cramped wooden courtroom. [00:47:02] >> Any of the four young fellas who were [00:47:04] shot testify? [00:47:06] >> They did. Two of the four testified. And [00:47:11] savvy listeners might be asking, "Wait a [00:47:13] second, why would they even testify? Why [00:47:16] would the prosecutors put them on? They [00:47:17] they all had quite awful criminal [00:47:20] histories. Uh were not likely to be [00:47:22] great witnesses for the prosecution. Why [00:47:24] even call them? Well, Gregory Waples did [00:47:27] because he felt he had to. If he didn't [00:47:29] put them on the stand, the defense would [00:47:32] have had the right to put them on the [00:47:33] stand and call them as witnesses. And [00:47:35] when once the defense puts a witness on [00:47:37] the stand, they can control what comes [00:47:39] out of his mouth. They can embarrass him [00:47:41] on the stand and make it immensely worse [00:47:44] for the prosecution. So when the young [00:47:46] men testified, Gregory Waples, the [00:47:48] prosecutor put them on. One of the two [00:47:50] young men was was pretty bad for the [00:47:53] prosecution. He was just many people [00:47:55] regarded him in his testimony as sort of [00:47:58] they saw him as angry and bitter. Um [00:48:00] they thought he was resentful of the [00:48:03] court and the judge and so on. That's [00:48:04] just their perceptions. And but [00:48:07] something I know from being a prosecutor [00:48:09] is you can't change what people think [00:48:11] about you even if it's uh not [00:48:14] legitimate. And the the jury just was [00:48:17] not impressed with with one of the two [00:48:19] witnesses that came up. [00:48:21] >> Total number of witnesses. [00:48:23] >> Oh gosh, I don't know. It was a lot [00:48:25] though because when you thank just the [00:48:28] medical folks, the paramedics, the [00:48:31] doctors, the surgeon to talk through the [00:48:34] injuries that the young men had. And [00:48:36] then moreover, the young men were at two [00:48:39] different hospitals uh and uh two of [00:48:41] them went to one hospital, two went to [00:48:43] another. So physicians from two [00:48:44] different hospitals had to testify. A [00:48:47] surgeon and neurologists had to testify [00:48:49] about the mental state or the mental [00:48:51] capacity of the young man who got brain [00:48:53] damaged. A number of the passengers on [00:48:56] the train testified, police testified, [00:48:58] the two victims, two of the four [00:49:00] testified. Um [00:49:03] and just think and Myra Freedman, I [00:49:06] believe that the neighbor, so a lot of [00:49:07] different people testified. Um I don't [00:49:09] have the number off the top of my head [00:49:10] how many it was, but it was not a small [00:49:12] number. Did Bernard get testify? [00:49:15] >> He did not. He thought about it and he [00:49:17] thought about testifying before the [00:49:18] grand jury um and wanted to work out a [00:49:22] deal with prosecutors so that he [00:49:24] wouldn't be charged with any additional [00:49:26] crimes if he testified about the case. [00:49:28] Now, as a general matter and something I [00:49:31] note in the book, it's never really a [00:49:34] good idea for a defendant to testify. He [00:49:36] will be cross-examined by a skilled [00:49:38] prosecutor. He will probably end up [00:49:40] tripping himself up. will probably end [00:49:42] up getting himself in trouble and [00:49:43] Bernard gets himself is would not be a [00:49:46] great witness. It would be really hard [00:49:48] to um keep his testimony in check only [00:49:54] because of sort of how loose of a cannon [00:49:56] he kind of is. And so for a host of [00:49:58] reasons he did not. As you were going [00:50:01] through the exercise of the research and [00:50:03] all that and you saw how the [00:50:05] [clears throat] prosecutor handled this, [00:50:07] did you ever say to yourself, "I would [00:50:09] not have done that." [00:50:10] >> No. No. Um because of how challenging a [00:50:13] case it was for the prosecutor to bring [00:50:15] I actually think Waples did an excellent [00:50:17] job top to bottom soup to nuts as a [00:50:20] prosecutor. The one place he messed up [00:50:22] and this was a human error in his [00:50:25] closing argument. He made the point that [00:50:27] if Bernard gets feels that his fragile [00:50:30] sensibilities will be so offended every [00:50:33] time a kid is making noise around him, [00:50:36] then he should just pack his bags and [00:50:37] leave and move out of New York City. [00:50:40] That one line ended up being one that [00:50:43] really angered the jury because it it [00:50:45] seemed like arrogance from an uncaring [00:50:49] public official telling a a room of New [00:50:52] Yorkers that if you don't like it here, [00:50:54] you ought to just leave. Um, that was [00:50:57] his one error. And quite frankly, when I [00:50:59] interviewed Greg Waples, he was quite [00:51:01] self-aware about that line. He felt that [00:51:05] um he he felt he said to me that I [00:51:07] shouldn't have framed it that way. The [00:51:10] underlying sentiment was clear. Bernard [00:51:12] gets pretty fragile in his framing and [00:51:16] views and understandings of the world, [00:51:18] but it probably wasn't a good choice of [00:51:21] words to tell the the defendant and by [00:51:25] extension all of the jurors that hey, if [00:51:27] you don't like it here, just leave. I [00:51:29] have to ask you because it was a front [00:51:31] page story in the New York Times. How is [00:51:34] it that two books were written about the [00:51:37] same subject and came out at the same [00:51:39] time? [00:51:40] >> I don't know. It's one of those and [00:51:43] there's a quote from my editor saying [00:51:45] that, you know, we feel sorry for [00:51:47] authors whenever this happens that [00:51:51] because everybody, you know, look, Ryan, [00:51:52] you talk to authors all the time. you [00:51:54] know, the staggering amount of work that [00:51:56] goes into a book and it's hard to see um [00:51:59] that there's competition on the same [00:52:02] literally within a week of each other. [00:52:04] That said, it's just one of those [00:52:07] remarkable coincidences. Now, what both [00:52:10] uh the other author and I have said is [00:52:12] that it's a rich story. It's a ripe [00:52:14] story still with echoes into today's [00:52:18] world from vigilante to race to crime to [00:52:21] justice to public safety to cities. My [00:52:24] goodness, so much of the national [00:52:26] discourse today is about how safe cities [00:52:28] are and what it'll take from the federal [00:52:30] government to make them safe. So [00:52:34] to an extent, one can see that the [00:52:36] issues do lend themselves to multiple [00:52:40] angles looking at them. But it is, I [00:52:42] think, a remarkable coincidence that [00:52:45] there are two books coming out at the [00:52:46] same time on the same subject matter. [00:52:48] >> By the way, I looked up to this morning, [00:52:50] I think it's in your book, but I looked [00:52:51] it up [clears throat] because of AI [00:52:56] that in 1984 there were 1628 murders in [00:53:00] New York City and in 2025 there were [00:53:03] 303. [00:53:05] >> Right. It's just [00:53:06] >> what what happened? I mean, you've been [00:53:08] around New York City all these years. [00:53:09] What happened? I think in general um the [00:53:13] the climate around violence in the [00:53:16] United States is just different. Cities [00:53:17] overall were rougher in the early 1980s. [00:53:20] New York itself just had a lot of fiscal [00:53:25] management problems. If you remember the [00:53:27] iconic Daily News headline, Ford to [00:53:30] city, Gerald Ford, Ford to city dropped [00:53:32] dead with a picture of Gerald Ford when [00:53:35] the city had sought a bailout from the [00:53:37] federal government because of how rough [00:53:38] it was. The city was firing police [00:53:40] officers, teachers, sanitation workers, [00:53:44] public servants. Um the city was [00:53:46] flirting with bankruptcy. The city, the [00:53:49] Bronx was literally burning. Um [00:53:52] buildings across the South Bronx had [00:53:55] been set on fire by arson often by the [00:53:58] owners of the buildings. And it was just [00:54:00] a rougher, grittier place. Across [00:54:03] America, cities have gotten safer in [00:54:05] those intervening decades. And I would [00:54:07] even go as far as to say um not just [00:54:10] from 1984 to 2026, even from 1984 to [00:54:14] 1997 when Bernard gets went on trial, [00:54:17] 1996, pardon me, when he went on trial [00:54:20] for his civil trial, it was just a [00:54:22] different city. The homicide rates were [00:54:24] far far lower. And so it's a host of [00:54:26] factors that led to um sort of those [00:54:30] plummeting crime rates and enlightening [00:54:33] for us today to look at when many [00:54:36] politicians do feed a public narrative [00:54:39] that cities are cities are unsafe and we [00:54:41] have to take action to to clean them up. [00:54:46] Well, certainly every time there's a [00:54:48] crime, it's something that we should [00:54:49] validate and validate people's fears and [00:54:51] and accept that people don't feel safe. [00:54:54] But the reality is the numbers are [00:54:56] nothing like what they were 40 years [00:54:58] ago. [00:55:00] >> Where do you live today? [00:55:01] >> I live in Washington DC. [00:55:03] >> Besides being a CNN analyst and writing [00:55:06] this book, how do you make a living? [00:55:08] >> Oh, that that that is how I largely make [00:55:10] a living. Uh CNN CNN legal analyst [00:55:12] writing the book and I also host um [00:55:15] guest host on both NPR and SiriusXM's uh [00:55:19] nonpartisan talk radio network. [00:55:22] Which politicians have you worked for? [00:55:24] >> Which I worked for Chuck Schumer uh when [00:55:26] he was a uh when I was a counsel to the [00:55:30] Senate Judiciary Committee. [00:55:32] >> What' you learn? [00:55:33] >> I learned that uh don't ever watch how [00:55:36] sausage is made. I think is the I saw [00:55:38] that firsthand. I think working for [00:55:40] Congress, you know, I for folks in [00:55:42] Washington DC, it's important to to be [00:55:45] in and around Congress for everybody [00:55:47] just to understand [00:55:49] um how the machinery of government [00:55:51] works. I I I do think there is far more [00:55:54] bonami among the members of Congress [00:55:57] than the public might see. You see these [00:55:59] folks fighting in press releases and [00:56:01] arguments with each other in public, but [00:56:03] they actually often do like each other [00:56:05] far more than than the public might [00:56:07] indicate. Now, that said, I do think [00:56:10] there's a there's a level of [00:56:11] partisanship today that there just [00:56:14] wasn't even 20 years ago when I worked [00:56:17] there. It just there's something far [00:56:19] more toxic in American politics today [00:56:21] that's very hard to see. And for folks [00:56:24] who built their careers building [00:56:26] bipartisan relationships and respecting [00:56:28] that there are es and flows to where [00:56:32] government policy goes and there should [00:56:34] be but it's really hard to see sort of [00:56:36] what where Congress has gone over the [00:56:38] last generation or so. [00:56:40] >> Before I let you go a couple quick ones. [00:56:42] There was a attack on Bernard Gats in [00:56:45] 1981. [00:56:47] Did that come up in the trial? It it did [00:56:50] because um it came up in the trial [00:56:53] because it was sort of a sense of [00:56:56] to get inside this question of [00:56:58] reasonleness of how reasonable his [00:57:00] actions were. You had to understand that [00:57:02] this person had been a crime victim [00:57:04] before and was constantly on the lookout [00:57:06] for crime. Now, the prosecution [00:57:09] pushed that aside and said, "Regardless [00:57:12] of what happened to you in the past, you [00:57:14] still don't have the right to attempt a [00:57:16] homicide every time someone looks at you [00:57:18] funny." And that's ultimately how the [00:57:19] prosecution framed it. But that that [00:57:22] assault by three young black men and and [00:57:25] the the race comes up throughout the [00:57:27] whole story. But that assault was a [00:57:29] rather formative moment for Bernard gets [00:57:32] the point at which he really started [00:57:34] carrying his firearm with him wherever [00:57:36] he went. Um and continued sort of a [00:57:39] lifetime of disenchantment [00:57:42] disenchantment with the criminal justice [00:57:44] system. He just felt it wasn't fair, [00:57:47] that he was agrieved, and that [00:57:49] authorities were not looking out for [00:57:51] him. [00:57:52] >> You have a picture of him in your book [00:57:54] with a t-shirt on that says vegetarian. [00:57:58] >> Well, there's one more thing on that [00:58:00] t-shirt. It says vegetarian, but it's a [00:58:02] five-pointed marijuana leaf. Um, he was [00:58:05] it says vegetarian. He [00:58:08] in time became quite a big activist for [00:58:12] marijuana reform. Um he's Curtis Leewa. [00:58:16] Remember I mentioned him, the guy who [00:58:17] ran for mayor of New York. He said they [00:58:19] see each other a bunch at pro- marijuana [00:58:22] pronabis rallies. So he's sort of this [00:58:25] pro-weed activist, pro- vegetarian and [00:58:27] veganism activist. That's what he does [00:58:29] now. He does a lot of um animal rights [00:58:32] and um pro-vearian activism. He ran for [00:58:35] mayor on a platform uh mayor and public [00:58:39] advocate calling for vegetarian meals in [00:58:42] school lunches. I think nap time I want [00:58:44] to say for public workers but also an [00:58:46] anti-ircumcision [00:58:48] platform. He these were just the pet [00:58:50] issues that he made himself uh the cause [00:58:54] of. Also, he was known to find squirrels [00:58:58] in Washington Square Park near his house [00:59:00] that he thought had been wounded and try [00:59:03] to nurse them back to help. They would, [00:59:05] his neighbors called him squirrel man [00:59:07] because they would sometimes see him [00:59:09] walking through the halls of the [00:59:10] building clutching a squirrel or washing [00:59:12] it in the bathtub. Sort of um what one [00:59:16] of the police officers who investigated [00:59:18] the case said he was an interesting [00:59:21] fella, which is how they described him. [00:59:23] Mother Jewish, Father Lutheran. [00:59:25] >> Mother Jewish, Father Lutheran. [00:59:28] >> Last question. Uh, there was a civic [00:59:32] trial. [00:59:34] >> Mhm. [00:59:34] >> How many years after he had been [00:59:38] acquitted, but how long did he spend in [00:59:40] prison? [00:59:40] >> Eight months. It was 8 months for the [00:59:43] illegal gun possession, not any of the [00:59:44] violent crimes. So, for carrying the [00:59:46] gun, not firing it. [00:59:47] >> And so, how long after that was he um [00:59:50] was he in the civic trial? Well, the [00:59:51] civil trial was years later was in the [00:59:53] late 1990s in the Bronx. It ultimately [00:59:58] was just, as I'd mentioned a moment ago, [01:00:00] just a different New York. Um, uh, [01:00:02] people felt differently about public [01:00:04] safety. And so, a city that might have [01:00:07] felt it wanted this avenging vigilante [01:00:11] in the 1980s just didn't have the same [01:00:13] need for him in the 1990s. and he was [01:00:16] just regarded with more skepticism and [01:00:19] scorn than he was embraced with in the [01:00:21] 1980s. But no, he went on trial uh in [01:00:23] 1996, [01:00:25] sued by the the victim, one of the [01:00:28] victims who ultimately ended up [01:00:29] paralyzed. Um and and ultimately did [01:00:33] get, I want to say, a $43 million [01:00:36] judgment against him. He hasn't paid it [01:00:38] and seems to have no intention of doing [01:00:41] so. [01:00:41] >> You say he filed for bankruptcy. [01:00:43] >> Filed for bankruptcy. he did along the [01:00:45] way. [01:00:46] >> There's a lot in here that we have not [01:00:48] talked about. [01:00:50] Elliot Williams, the book is called Five [01:00:52] Bullets. [01:00:55] Thank you very much for your time. [01:00:56] >> Thank you. It's a rich story and like [01:00:58] you said, there's just so many angles to [01:01:00] it that tie to today and who we are [01:01:03] today, how we live today, how we see [01:01:05] race and crime and vigilantes and [01:01:07] self-defense today. And so, um, yes, [01:01:09] there is a lot in there, but it's it's [01:01:11] fascinating how a 202 long moment in [01:01:15] 1984 can have reverberations across [01:01:18] decades of American life, and this case [01:01:20] truly did. [01:01:21] >> Thanks for tuning in to this week's [01:01:22] BookNotes Plus podcast. If you have a [01:01:25] moment, please consider rating and [01:01:26] reviewing us wherever you listen to [01:01:28] podcasts. 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