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[00:00:00] There are there are there's a ven [00:00:02] diagram. I keep saying this between what [00:00:04] I do and what you do, but they're not [00:00:06] the same. And I'll go first. [00:00:07] >> Parallel. [00:00:08] >> They're parallel. Well, there's there's [00:00:09] some overlap. I mean, we use aliases and [00:00:13] >> I use disguises. People comment that my [00:00:15] disguises are completely ridiculous, [00:00:17] >> but they work a lot of the time. Is that [00:00:19] because people are just so full of [00:00:21] themselves? They're they're they're not [00:00:23] one of the things I just I I find out in [00:00:25] Washington DC, particularly DC, and I [00:00:28] was in Davos for the World Economic [00:00:29] Forum. [00:00:30] >> They're they're stuck in their own [00:00:32] little they're not really paying [00:00:34] attention to me. [00:00:35] >> They're they're having a they're [00:00:37] confessing to the ether. [00:00:40] >> Well, what is that? Why Why do people do [00:00:41] that? [00:00:42] >> That's arrogance. Arrogance. [00:00:43] >> People love to hear their own voices. [00:00:46] People love to sound not just to others [00:00:48] but to themselves that they are the [00:00:50] leading experts on an issue. They're [00:00:53] insiders and they want to show they want [00:00:55] to prove just how intelligent just how [00:00:59] well-connected they are. [00:01:00] >> And that's true for 90% of people. [00:01:03] >> Yeah. Just about [00:01:04] >> and in politics more [00:01:06] >> 100%. You have to be a sociopath or a [00:01:09] narcissist to even want to enter [00:01:11] elective politics. Perhaps like people [00:01:13] say, you know, like someone like, you [00:01:15] know, an entrepreneur that that starts a [00:01:18] company, maybe they're a little on the [00:01:19] spectrum. There's something off, but I [00:01:21] mean that as a compliment. [00:01:22] >> Yes. [00:01:22] >> You have to either or you have to be [00:01:24] motiv motivated by some extreme form of [00:01:26] vengeance. Like there has to be [00:01:27] something wrong about you to do to do [00:01:30] this. [00:01:30] >> That's right. Well, I've said many times [00:01:32] on on podcasts that the CIA, and I got [00:01:34] this from a CIA psychiatrist, the CIA [00:01:37] actively seeks to hire people with [00:01:39] sociopathic tendencies. [00:01:40] >> Sociopathic. They they don't want to [00:01:43] hire sociopaths because sociopaths have [00:01:45] no conscience, no ability to feel [00:01:48] remorse and they blow right through the [00:01:50] polygraph because they don't feel [00:01:52] regret. [00:01:53] >> Wow. So what's a sociopathic tendency? [00:01:55] >> The sociopathic tendency is somebody who [00:01:57] is perfectly happy to operate in legal, [00:02:00] moral or ethical gray areas because of [00:02:03] the belief that we're the good guys. [00:02:04] I'll give you an example. I was leaving [00:02:06] Pakistan, my very last day in Pakistan, [00:02:09] and I was so looking forward to meeting [00:02:11] up with my fiance 24 hours later, and we [00:02:14] were going to go on vacation to uh Santa [00:02:16] Fe. 2 hours before I left the embassy, I [00:02:20] got a cable saying, "Don't come home. We [00:02:23] want you to go to this other country [00:02:24] instead, and we want you to meet up with [00:02:26] the team there. You're going to break [00:02:28] into a house, and you're going to plant [00:02:29] some hidden cameras." And I said, [00:02:32] "Okay." And I did. You didn't object to [00:02:35] this or you just well you followed your [00:02:37] orders. You you [00:02:38] >> and I believed in the mission. We were [00:02:40] the good guys. [00:02:41] >> You were you have to believe you're the [00:02:42] good guys to do this which requires a [00:02:45] little bit of sociopathic tendencies. [00:02:47] >> That's right. [00:02:47] >> But you can't really question your your [00:02:49] orders in the military in any event, [00:02:51] right? You have to be trained. [00:02:52] >> And if headquarters said that this was a [00:02:54] bad person, a a terrorist that we needed [00:02:57] to collect intelligence on, I was all [00:02:59] in. What's the difference between [00:03:02] Hollywood's depiction again I'll go [00:03:04] first here in answering my own question [00:03:07] Hollywood's depiction like Jason Bourne [00:03:09] and James Bond but that's kind of you [00:03:11] know ridiculous but my my my perception [00:03:14] of the big difference is that people [00:03:16] people I get thousands of people oh I [00:03:18] want to be an undercover for you the [00:03:20] hardest part for me is just the torture [00:03:22] of traveling I mean it is not fun to be [00:03:27] on a airplane across seas and sleeping [00:03:30] on the floor of a Portuguese airport on [00:03:32] a Saturday and hotel rooms all alone. [00:03:34] It's just hard work. That's the big [00:03:37] difference for me between the glamour [00:03:39] perception. But in your in your [00:03:41] business, in your line of work, what was [00:03:42] the difference between Hollywood's [00:03:43] depiction and what you do? [00:03:45] >> Hollywood's depiction. And I'll add by [00:03:47] saying I was the script adviser on the [00:03:49] Born Ultimatum. You were [00:03:50] >> in addition to a bunch of other CIA [00:03:52] movies and and two CIA related TV shows. [00:03:55] Um, we we try to make sure that the [00:03:57] scripts are are true to life as best we [00:04:00] can. But the the big difference is what [00:04:02] you see in a born movie [00:04:04] >> is somebody's entire career packed into [00:04:08] one hour [00:04:09] >> operation. Two hours. [00:04:10] >> Yeah. [00:04:11] >> Yeah. There's a lot of hurry up and [00:04:13] wait. Surveillance is is just soul [00:04:17] crushing. [00:04:17] >> I see. You sit there for hours, [00:04:19] sometimes days, just sitting there [00:04:22] >> and and peeing, urinating in a in a cup [00:04:24] or whatever. That actually happens. [00:04:26] >> Oh, yeah. You sit in a car. What do you [00:04:28] go to the bathroom? [00:04:28] >> Your fake mustache is starting to peel [00:04:30] off and Yeah. you're tired of the guy [00:04:33] that you're sitting with. That's a good [00:04:34] I once I once sat on, you know, the the [00:04:38] lid of a toilet for 9 hours [00:04:43] >> listening to a conversation in an [00:04:44] adjoining room as a guy was being [00:04:46] polygraphed. [00:04:47] >> Listening how so through [00:04:49] >> just just to see if he was going to lie [00:04:51] to you. No, I I just just through the [00:04:53] crack in the door just to see was he if [00:04:55] he was going to lie to the poligrapher [00:04:57] and the security officer that was in [00:04:58] there with him. [00:04:59] >> And you can't move on the toilet. You [00:05:01] can't shimmy. I I thought I was going to [00:05:04] faint after a while. [00:05:05] >> I've I've been there. Not not not that [00:05:07] extreme, but I mean, this is a weird [00:05:09] anecdote, but urinating in in I've had [00:05:12] women in the in in the trunk of a car [00:05:15] >> urinate a woman in a cup because we [00:05:17] couldn't leave the car. [00:05:19] >> And the right people are not going to [00:05:20] complain about it's just part of the [00:05:22] job. It's the mission, right? [00:05:23] >> I I was being investigated for a [00:05:25] security clearance once and the FBI [00:05:26] agent that was investigating me said, [00:05:28] "Uh, have you ever been um arrested?" [00:05:31] And instinctively I said, "In the United [00:05:33] States." And she says, "What's that [00:05:35] supposed to mean?" And I said, "Oh, no, [00:05:37] no, no, no, no. I've never been [00:05:39] arrested." Thinking, "Oh, shit." [00:05:41] >> Yeah. [00:05:41] >> I can't talk about those other times. [00:05:44] >> Yeah. So, you've been in foreign you've [00:05:45] been in in uh jails and prisons [00:05:47] overseas. You You've been through a lot [00:05:49] of stuff. [00:05:49] >> Yeah. I've been through a lot of stuff. [00:05:50] >> And you can't talk about everything [00:05:51] you've been through, right? [00:05:53] >> But it's rare that you you see I don't [00:05:55] know how many of you there are out [00:05:56] there, but you you you talk a lot. [00:05:58] You're you're an outspoken person. is [00:06:01] >> and that what what what [00:06:03] >> how did it come about to be that way? [00:06:06] >> You know, if you had Googled me before [00:06:08] December the 11th, 2007, [00:06:11] you would have found one entry and it [00:06:13] was I sold one house and bought another [00:06:15] house and it was in the Washington Post, [00:06:17] you know, little [00:06:19] >> public information thing. When I went [00:06:22] public over the CIA's torture program, [00:06:24] it exploded. And after the Obama [00:06:27] administration prosecuted me, I decided [00:06:29] that my mission in life was to tell the [00:06:32] truth and to be as vocal as I possibly [00:06:36] could be about government wrongdoing. [00:06:38] Even my my ex said, "Man, if if they [00:06:42] thought that arresting you was going to [00:06:44] silence you, they didn't know you at [00:06:46] all." [00:06:47] >> And I've embraced it. [00:06:48] >> That was over your whistleblowing on the [00:06:50] on the torture. [00:06:51] >> Yes. [00:06:52] >> So So So take us back to that that [00:06:54] moment. And this is important question [00:06:56] because I ask everybody who blows [00:06:58] whistles. [00:06:59] >> What really what made you do that? You [00:07:02] were indignant, righteous indignation. [00:07:04] Tell take us back. [00:07:05] >> I wish I could tell you that, you know, [00:07:08] I took a position and I stood up and I [00:07:12] told them that wasn't it at all. [00:07:15] >> Mhm. Um, I didn't intend to blow the [00:07:17] whistle, but I got a call from Brian [00:07:21] Ross at ABC News in early December 2007. [00:07:25] >> 2007. [00:07:26] >> Yep. Um, saying that he had a source who [00:07:29] said that I had tortured Abu Zuba. This [00:07:31] was a man that we thought was the number [00:07:34] three in al-Qaeda that I had led a raid [00:07:35] in Pakistan and captured. I said that [00:07:39] was absolutely untrue. I said I was the [00:07:41] only person who was kind to Abu Zuba. [00:07:44] I've never laid a hand on him or on any [00:07:46] other prisoner. I said, "Your source is [00:07:48] either grossly mistaken or he's a liar." [00:07:51] And Brian said, "I didn't know this was [00:07:52] an old reporter's trick because I'd [00:07:54] never spoken to a reporter before." He [00:07:56] said, "Well, you're welcome to come on [00:07:57] the show and defend yourself." [00:08:00] Well, a couple of days later, President [00:08:01] Bush gave a press conference in which he [00:08:03] looked directly into the camera and he [00:08:05] said, "We do not torture." And I said to [00:08:10] my wife, who was also a senior CIA [00:08:12] officer, I said, 'He's a bald-faced [00:08:14] liar, [00:08:15] >> looking the American people in the in [00:08:17] the eye, and he's just lying to us. And [00:08:19] then two days later, it was a Friday, [00:08:22] Bush was walking out of the South [00:08:24] Portico of the White House to the [00:08:25] helicopter to fly to Camp David and a [00:08:27] reporter shouted a question about [00:08:29] torture and he stopped and he turned and [00:08:32] he said, "Well, if there is torture, [00:08:34] it's because of a rogue CIA officer." [00:08:36] And I told my wife, [00:08:39] >> "Brian Ross's source is at the White [00:08:40] House [00:08:41] >> and they're going to try to pin this on [00:08:43] me." I said, "I'm going to go public." [00:08:45] >> So I I called Brian Ross and I said, [00:08:47] "I'll give you your interview." [00:08:48] >> Wow. [00:08:49] >> And I decided just to tell the truth and [00:08:51] let the cards fall. We had a group of [00:08:53] folks at the agency who were trained in [00:08:55] what have been reported in the press to [00:08:57] be called enhanced techniques. These [00:08:58] enhanced techniques included everything [00:09:00] from what was called an attention shake [00:09:02] where you grab the person by the lapels [00:09:04] and shake them all the way up to the [00:09:06] other end which was waterboarding and [00:09:08] that was one of the techniques. [00:09:09] >> Waterboarding was one of the techniques [00:09:11] >> and was it used on Zeta? [00:09:12] >> It was. 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