Untitled Document

[00:00:02] Following the bizarre and unresolved uh [00:00:04] palum terror attack on April 22nd in [00:00:07] Indian occupied Kashmir, the Indian and [00:00:09] law enforcement apparatus in the region, [00:00:11] 600,000 men strong thereabouts, went [00:00:14] into full crackdown, detaining [00:00:16] journalists, entire familial groups of [00:00:18] men and boys engaged in mass in the mass [00:00:21] demolitions of homes and instituted a [00:00:24] media crackdown in an operational [00:00:26] procedure imminently reminiscent of [00:00:28] Operation Iron. wall, Israel's [00:00:31] demolition and ghettoization project in [00:00:33] the occupied Palestinian territories. [00:00:36] Tonight on State of Play on Mintress [00:00:38] News, we're going to be discussing the [00:00:39] IndiaPakistan ceasefire which is largely [00:00:42] still unresolved due to the suspension [00:00:44] of the Indis waters treaty, the [00:00:47] connection between occupied Palestine [00:00:49] and occupied Kashmir, the recent deal [00:00:51] brokering of the Trump administration in [00:00:53] the region and ask the fundamental [00:00:55] question is India the weak link in [00:00:58] bricks alliance which strives decade by [00:01:00] decade for a more multi-polar south [00:01:04] south aligned world. To that end, we are [00:01:07] joined by Sana Say, a media critic [00:01:11] formerly with AJ Plus, where she was the [00:01:13] host of media critique series Backspace [00:01:16] and Occupation Style Guide. Um, she's uh [00:01:21] Pakistani descent with Kashmir [00:01:22] background as well. So, I think your [00:01:24] mic's still muted, but thank you so much [00:01:26] for coming on. Thank you so much for [00:01:28] having me. Excited about talking about [00:01:30] this topic, which is totally like not [00:01:32] controversial at all. Yeah, I know. uh [00:01:34] you we've had the Israel uh Palestine, [00:01:37] we've had the Syria thing which was [00:01:39] incredibly divisive and you know we can [00:01:42] also Russia, Ukraine and now this. So uh [00:01:45] just just uh just couple of massacres [00:01:48] over here topics. Yeah. So real quick I [00:01:52] have to because we live in a capitalist [00:01:54] dystopia. Menress News is a small [00:01:56] independent newsroom who's demonetized [00:01:58] on like all platforms. So if you're [00:02:00] picking up what we're putting down, [00:02:01] check us out on Patreon. every little [00:02:03] bit goes a long way to doing what we're [00:02:05] doing. And of course, if you're getting [00:02:06] nickeled and dime and can barely [00:02:08] survive, which seems to be the [00:02:10] increasing plight of many Americans. Uh [00:02:13] just like, share, subscribe, give us um [00:02:15] five star review on whatever platform [00:02:17] you're watching. It helps push this out [00:02:19] into the algorithm. We're just happy [00:02:20] you're here. All right. So anyways to [00:02:22] get into it so we're aware of all that [00:02:25] reporting conflicting reports about the [00:02:27] extent of the role of the US and the [00:02:29] mediation of a ceasefire which is to be [00:02:32] expected uh he said she said but I [00:02:35] definitely want people to understand how [00:02:37] strategically important India is and [00:02:40] demonstrabably increasingly fascist the [00:02:42] government is to the US and to a [00:02:45] different extent Israeli interests in [00:02:46] the region. But first, uh, I kind of [00:02:48] want to talk about the actual degree of [00:02:51] stability in the region, and I just [00:02:53] wanted to kind of play a Reuters report [00:02:56] from earlier today and get your take on, [00:02:58] well, you're a media critic, so I'd be [00:03:01] interested to hear what your thoughts [00:03:02] are on it. Residents of Pakistani [00:03:05] administer Kashmir celebrated on Sunday [00:03:07] as a fragile ceasefire between India and [00:03:09] Pakistan appear to hold with US [00:03:12] President Donald Trump offering to help [00:03:14] resolve the arch rivals long-running [00:03:16] dispute over the Himalayan region. [00:03:18] Diplomacy and pressure from the United [00:03:20] States helped secure the truce on [00:03:22] Saturday following the worst fighting [00:03:24] between the nuclear armed neighbors in [00:03:26] nearly three decades. But hours after it [00:03:29] took effect, explosions were heard and [00:03:31] bright flashes lit up the sky in Indian [00:03:34] administered Kashmir, the center of much [00:03:36] of last week's conflict. The blasts died [00:03:38] down by dawn, according to Reuters [00:03:40] witnesses, and shops on both sides of [00:03:42] the contested border region were seen [00:03:45] reopening on Sunday. Trump praised the [00:03:47] leaders of both countries for agreeing [00:03:49] to halt the aggression and said he would [00:03:51] substantially increase trade with them. [00:03:54] In a post on his truth social platform, [00:03:56] the president added, quote, I will work [00:03:58] with you both to see if a solution can [00:04:00] be arrived at concerning Kashmir. Hindu [00:04:03] majority India and Muslim majority [00:04:05] Pakistan each rule a part of Kashmir but [00:04:08] claim it in full. They have twice gone [00:04:10] to war over the region. Pakistan's prime [00:04:13] minister Shabbas Sharif saying in a post [00:04:15] on X he was extremely grateful to the US [00:04:18] president while its foreign ministry [00:04:20] urged in a statement for the realization [00:04:22] of what it called the Kashmiri people's [00:04:25] inalienable right to self-determination. [00:04:28] I think what we really are seeing is a [00:04:30] situation where India and Pakistan felt [00:04:32] that they had each gotten their punches [00:04:34] in. John's Hopkins University foreign [00:04:36] policy researcher Daniel Marky said both [00:04:38] sides want the fighting to stop but [00:04:40] described the ceasefire as just pushing [00:04:43] pause on a much deeper conflict. They [00:04:45] are concerned about unintended [00:04:47] escalation about this particular [00:04:49] conflict getting out of control but a [00:04:51] peace deal they neither side is [00:04:53] particularly interested in that. That [00:04:55] would mean an actual resolution of the [00:04:57] underlying disputes of Kashmir and of [00:05:00] broader issues as well. on the broader [00:05:02] geopolitical implications at play. [00:05:04] Marquis said Washington does not want [00:05:06] India in a conflict with Pakistan as [00:05:08] India is a strategic partner in helping [00:05:11] the US counterbalance the weight of [00:05:13] China across Asia [00:05:16] and we're definitely going to get into [00:05:17] that last point there because that's [00:05:19] absolutely demonstrably true. But u any [00:05:23] knee-jerk reactions to that like what is [00:05:25] the current state of affairs visa v [00:05:26] India Pakistan as things stand right [00:05:28] now? Yeah, that was a very Reuters [00:05:31] report. Um, I I I mean I definitely it's [00:05:34] it's interesting how it of course like [00:05:36] frames what happened and again it kind [00:05:38] of says that oh essentially it's over [00:05:40] disputed territory, right? And that's [00:05:42] not which I think points to two things. [00:05:44] One which is the very continued um uh [00:05:47] mythology around what the issue of [00:05:49] Kashmir actually is about. uh and also [00:05:52] just the limited um uh historical lens [00:05:56] with which a lot of American and you [00:05:59] know a lot of also British although they [00:06:01] should definitely know better um kind of [00:06:02] view uh subcontinental politics um I [00:06:06] mean India was very clear I mean okay so [00:06:08] we have the uh uh the attack happen in [00:06:11] Palgam um and 26 people are murdered [00:06:14] within hours um uh India claims that the [00:06:18] the the TRF which is the resistance [00:06:20] front a Kashmir resistance group that [00:06:22] was started in uh 2019 as a response to [00:06:25] the uh Modi government's abrogation of [00:06:28] article 370 which took away uh Kashmir's [00:06:31] autonomous status. Um uh they claim that [00:06:34] this was the or the group that had [00:06:36] conducted this attack. Um and of course [00:06:38] the testimonies that we hear from from [00:06:39] the women who witnessed it are [00:06:41] absolutely horrific. Um and then of [00:06:43] course within hours of that they're like [00:06:45] well Pakistan's behind this and and [00:06:48] within days of course they start I mean [00:06:50] within hours they pull the indis revoke [00:06:53] not even uh threaten to they revoke the [00:06:56] indis water treaty which is detrimental [00:06:58] to Pakistan because for Pakistan I mean [00:07:00] it's it's a very climate stressed [00:07:02] country. It's one of the most water [00:07:03] scarce countries in the world which is [00:07:05] also one of the reasons why Kashmir I [00:07:07] mean there is like a lot of ideas of [00:07:08] kinship and the two nation theory about [00:07:10] like you know an independent Pakistan [00:07:12] independent India that also plays into [00:07:14] it but there is like Kashmir is also [00:07:16] access to fresh water which uh Pakistan [00:07:19] again uh does not have a lot of access [00:07:22] to and and where like when we look at [00:07:24] Pakistan it's it's it either gets too [00:07:26] much water with the floods which is or [00:07:28] it gets absolutely no water in terms of [00:07:30] clean drinking water as well. Um so you [00:07:33] know immediately this becomes Pakistan [00:07:36] was behind this. We need to destroy [00:07:38] Pakistan's uh uh terror infrastructure [00:07:41] which is language we've heard right this [00:07:43] idea that we need to go in there and [00:07:45] target and destroy and eradicate their [00:07:47] terrorist infrastructure. No evidence is [00:07:50] provided no kind of nothing is really [00:07:52] provided. In fact there was one single [00:07:54] statement that even was attributed to [00:07:56] the TRF and the TRF came out itself and [00:07:59] said we had nothing to do with this [00:08:00] statement. it was published on one of [00:08:02] our social media networks and um we were [00:08:06] we were hacked and there's an we can [00:08:08] have an entire different conversation [00:08:10] about that as well. Is that true or not, [00:08:12] etc. As far as I'm concerned, if you're [00:08:13] going to be committing an act of you [00:08:16] know what is ostensibly political [00:08:18] violence as well, right? Um uh you want [00:08:21] to take credit for it, right? There so [00:08:23] no one has actually stepped up and taken [00:08:25] credit for for the Podum um attack. And [00:08:28] of course it's no longer even about [00:08:29] Balam because India as soon as it also [00:08:32] brought in Pakistan into it in the way [00:08:34] that it did and then escalated in the [00:08:37] way that it did and of course Pakistan [00:08:39] responded and so we just saw escalation [00:08:40] after escalation it makes this entire [00:08:43] story something completely else. So all [00:08:46] of that to say it's very interesting to [00:08:47] me that the Reuters report is very much [00:08:50] so packaged in the only way that also [00:08:53] Americans if they know about India [00:08:56] Pakistan if they know about Kashmir and [00:08:58] again that's a huge if this is the [00:09:00] context in which they know it. Oh these [00:09:02] two countries and they're fighting over [00:09:04] a piece of land just what are you gonna [00:09:06] do that's just over there. I don't I [00:09:09] don't know if you remember this but like [00:09:11] a few days or like maybe within 24 to 72 [00:09:13] hours I can't remember. uh because time [00:09:15] is flat these days. But Trump when he [00:09:17] was asked about it, all he said was [00:09:19] because the United States was kind of [00:09:21] very handsoff initially, they're like, [00:09:23] "Oh, you know, they'll figure it out. [00:09:25] I'm sure they'll figure it out. They've [00:09:26] been at this for a thousand years." [00:09:28] Which as a good friend of mine put like [00:09:29] he put it really well. He was like, [00:09:31] "Well, clearly he's getting his Israel [00:09:32] Palestine quote unquote talking points [00:09:34] confused with his India Pakistan ones. [00:09:37] What are you talking about thousand [00:09:38] years? Pakistan and India have only been [00:09:40] around for like 77 years." Um so that is [00:09:43] like a very neatly packaged way and [00:09:45] Kashmiris are again just kind of thrown [00:09:48] as these little like uh people of [00:09:51] unfortunate circumstances as opposed to [00:09:53] especially in Indian occupied Kashmir as [00:09:55] opposed to um people who have their own [00:09:57] independent history a history that's [00:09:59] also independent of of of Pakistan right [00:10:02] a history that's independent of that um [00:10:04] and very much so as it relates to [00:10:07] specifically Hindu rule which we can get [00:10:09] into later. [00:10:11] Yeah. Um, so it's interesting you [00:10:13] brought that up. JD Vance even said [00:10:14] like, you know, essentially like we have [00:10:16] nothing to do with it. It's like, well, [00:10:18] you know, they are two nuclear powers [00:10:20] and the suspension of the Indis Waters [00:10:22] Treaty, which has been around since [00:10:23] what, like 1965 or something around that [00:10:26] time frame, uh, which has survived two [00:10:28] actual border wars with Pakistan. But [00:10:31] this this shuts it off. That was kind of [00:10:33] bizarre to me. It was that was what what [00:10:36] was really shocking. And there were a [00:10:37] lot of, you know, interest. It was [00:10:38] really interesting. A lot of people were [00:10:40] like, "Oh, um, you know, don't get so [00:10:43] hyperbolic about this. Um, India has [00:10:45] done it before." No, it hasn't. What [00:10:47] India has done, it's threatened to [00:10:49] revoke it. In 2019, for instance, in [00:10:51] 2021, it has threatened to revoke uh the [00:10:54] Indis uh water treaty. Um, but it has [00:10:57] never actually done it. I also really [00:10:58] want to specify for for viewers who are [00:11:00] not aware. Now, while India has revoked [00:11:03] it, the actual I mean it can't revoke [00:11:06] gravity, right? Water still flows down. [00:11:08] So in order for that treaty to not just [00:11:10] be revoked but actually be put into [00:11:12] action, India has to build damps. It [00:11:14] needs to stop the water from reaching [00:11:15] it. Um so I just also want to mention [00:11:18] that because it was like okay you [00:11:19] revoked it so are you like building a [00:11:21] dam tomorrow? Like how does how is this [00:11:22] going to work with you for you guys? [00:11:24] Right. And so a couple of unprecedented [00:11:26] things happened. Uh as someone who lived [00:11:29] in India uh for a time I was even [00:11:31] surprised by the vitriol coming out of [00:11:35] the Indian media. that that was [00:11:36] unprecedented for me. It was [00:11:38] unprecedented for a lot of my friends [00:11:39] who actually like live in uh India. X [00:11:42] accounts were getting shut down like [00:11:44] Lollywood actors their accounts were [00:11:46] getting shut down in India on on [00:11:48] Instagram and Meta. Uh 8,000 Pakistani [00:11:52] accounts got shut down on X uh if you're [00:11:54] using a uh Indian IP address. You [00:11:57] couldn't access them. And I think what [00:11:59] was kind of shocking was to view [00:12:02] Pakistani media uh and it being like [00:12:07] mostly just a meme war with like Gen Z [00:12:09] kids and also being way more uh [00:12:12] reasonable and then seeing a lot of kind [00:12:14] of almost Zionist language from you know [00:12:17] the Indians like get ready you're about [00:12:18] to become Gaza and that kind of was [00:12:21] completely unprecedented for me for [00:12:24] seeing that kind of cultural animosity [00:12:28] coming from one side from the world's [00:12:30] quote largest democracy, [00:12:32] largest democracy, most moral army in [00:12:35] the world, the only democracy in the [00:12:38] Middle East. These monikers tell us more [00:12:40] than they deem to. Um yeah, I mean I [00:12:42] guess I wasn't too surprised although [00:12:44] just because I think if you've really [00:12:48] been paying attention to India since [00:12:50] Modi in particular, we've seen how this [00:12:53] vitrial has been overtaking the [00:12:57] mainstream like brick by brick, right? [00:12:59] like whatever moment we the moment that [00:13:01] we find ourselves in globally right now, [00:13:03] whether it's here in the United States, [00:13:05] whether it's, you know, in Gaza with [00:13:06] with with Israel, whether it's in in um [00:13:10] in the [00:13:11] subcontinent, it wasn't right. It didn't [00:13:13] happen overnight. It didn't even happen [00:13:14] over a year or two years or whatever. [00:13:16] It's been in the making for I would say [00:13:17] even especially the last 25 years. I [00:13:20] mean, I always take it back to 23, 24 [00:13:22] years. I always take it back to like a [00:13:23] lot of um uh the war on terror type of [00:13:26] rhetoric, the laws, the entire way our [00:13:28] lives and way of thinking change. Even [00:13:30] the way we think about violence, right? [00:13:32] The fact that there are people that now [00:13:33] we live in a world where people think [00:13:35] like well a group attacked me therefore [00:13:37] I need to go eradicate your entire [00:13:38] people. It's like this type of thinking [00:13:41] was not necessarily the norm, right? [00:13:43] Even like 10, 15, 20 years ago. But with [00:13:46] regards to India, yeah, I'm not again [00:13:48] surprised at the level of vitrial and [00:13:50] the and the kind of a very um inherent [00:13:54] violence of the rhetoric. I mean, so on [00:13:56] Indian media, you have seen and of [00:13:59] course there's so many Indian news [00:14:00] channels. I also want to point that out. [00:14:01] Like it is a country of 1.4 billion [00:14:05] people. They speak over 500 minimum [00:14:09] languages in that country. Right? North [00:14:11] India is very different than East India [00:14:14] which is very different than than South [00:14:16] India. These are so I I do want to make [00:14:17] sure that we're we're making making that [00:14:20] clear. Um so I can only really speak to [00:14:22] the Indian media that I've seen which [00:14:24] was in Hindi. So a language that I can [00:14:26] understand and of course the stuff [00:14:27] they're saying is basher crazy. Let's go [00:14:29] eradicate them. Let's these Pakistani [00:14:31] dogs, you know. Um uh I mean there was a [00:14:34] lot of anger also at Modi for what [00:14:36] people were saying was essentially [00:14:37] surrender at signing a a ceasefire. Um [00:14:41] there is this this very if you [00:14:43] understand also Hindutva and if you [00:14:46] understand that ideology of you know [00:14:49] Hindu supremacy and I also really want [00:14:50] to reiterate that despite the kind of [00:14:52] very obvious um you know appearances of [00:14:56] Hindatwa as religious supremacy if we [00:14:59] read the texts of Hindatwa right so um [00:15:02] Sarakar's book the Hindu um I mean you [00:15:06] know that being a Hindu it's a lot like [00:15:07] Zionism right where it's like yes [00:15:09] religion is a core part of it in how it [00:15:11] is expressed and explored, but it really [00:15:14] is also um a very like racialized [00:15:17] identity. It's a very like um anyone can [00:15:19] be a Hindu if you if you you know [00:15:22] subscribe to these certain views. Um and [00:15:24] we've seen that happen o in India over [00:15:27] the last several decades of or the last [00:15:28] several over the last few decades but [00:15:30] especially in the last uh decade since [00:15:32] 2014 where um this idea that these [00:15:36] Muslims are invaders not just Muslims [00:15:38] also Christians too but they focus on [00:15:39] the Muslims because Muslims also make up [00:15:41] over 14% of the population which is a [00:15:43] lot of people out of 1.4 billion uh uh [00:15:46] citizens. So it's like these are [00:15:48] invaders. These are people who are not [00:15:50] part of the Hindu raashtra. These are [00:15:53] people who uh are going to are traitors [00:15:55] at their core. And even the 2019 again [00:15:59] abrogation of article 370 which was done [00:16:01] under Modi was one of the most [00:16:04] empowering moments for Hindu like uh uh [00:16:07] supremacy right it was this moment which [00:16:10] was like we're done pretending that [00:16:13] we're a secular country as per the [00:16:15] constitution as per what NU etc were [00:16:17] saying we are a Hindu country and we're [00:16:21] going to show it now through completely [00:16:23] trying to um assimilate uh Kashmir here [00:16:27] this Muslim majority region into the [00:16:30] fold of India as we see it which is this [00:16:32] Hindu country. Um and and so that [00:16:34] vitrial really come it's very very [00:16:36] parallel to Zionist vitrial although I [00:16:39] always say I'm like the vitrial that I [00:16:41] even on an individual level like receive [00:16:43] from Indians on on Twitter and I'm not [00:16:46] just talking about bots but I'm talking [00:16:47] about you know um accounts for like big [00:16:49] media um personalities and it's insane. [00:16:52] It really is insane. And I think a lot [00:16:54] of it is this. We don't talk enough [00:16:56] about how so many of these ideologies [00:16:58] that are extremely reactionary [00:17:00] right-wing fascist ideologies regardless [00:17:02] of the ethnic or religious background to [00:17:05] them, they all follow a similar pattern, [00:17:08] which is the constant expression of [00:17:10] violence and especially towards women. [00:17:12] This this idea that the expressions of [00:17:14] violence between you and I even, right, [00:17:17] are are a way of conquering the other as [00:17:19] well, right? And it's interesting that a [00:17:21] lot of these movements sprung up around [00:17:23] the 1920s. Like that's when the RSS [00:17:27] Yeah. Huh. Yeah. That's when the RSS was [00:17:29] founded and just u that was kind of just [00:17:31] for the audience kind of like a [00:17:32] paramilitary kind of brown shirt [00:17:34] Nazis-esque organization whose founder [00:17:36] actually kind of really admired Hitler [00:17:38] and there was a bunch of like [00:17:39] revisionism when that came out because [00:17:41] that was controversial. Was like no you [00:17:43] know Hindutas are the original arans. uh [00:17:46] and and the and the and the ruling party [00:17:47] in India right which is one of the major [00:17:49] parties the BJP uh which Modi is of [00:17:52] course a head of is the political wing [00:17:55] of the RSS too right so this isn't like [00:17:58] you know just like we when we talk about [00:18:00] Zionism in Israel it's like these these [00:18:01] ideas like even Luda these aren't fringe [00:18:05] these are not some fringe extreme what [00:18:07] this is the mainstream [00:18:09] [Music] [00:18:10] and and and it's even like mainstream [00:18:12] and not just in political discourse just [00:18:14] like uh it is in Israel. Like I would [00:18:16] get asked like I I stopped telling [00:18:18] people in India that I was in the army [00:18:19] that I was in the US military because [00:18:21] they're like, "Why doesn't the US just [00:18:22] nuke the Middle East?" Like actual like [00:18:25] doctors asking me like psychologists [00:18:27] asking me that. So I was like, "Okay, [00:18:28] you know what? We're just going to [00:18:30] pretend to be a tourist." I I do want to [00:18:32] um I I on this like point I do want to [00:18:34] also mention um so the journalist and [00:18:38] author Azad Isa made a really great [00:18:40] comment the other day on Twitter where [00:18:41] he said um that one of the things to [00:18:44] really note about India's India being [00:18:47] embraced fully by um western powers [00:18:51] European American powers etc u and of [00:18:54] course by Israel too is we see this [00:18:56] happen especially um not only with the [00:18:58] liberalization that happens in like 1999 [00:19:01] 1991 under Man Mohan Singh but also we [00:19:03] see it um really happen post 911 when [00:19:06] India embraces a war on terror very uh [00:19:09] anti-Muslim rhetoric as well like we're [00:19:11] all connected in this fight and there's [00:19:13] another great author um his name is uh [00:19:15] Rhese Jones he wrote a fantastic who [00:19:17] he's written a few books but one book in [00:19:19] particular is called border walls and it [00:19:20] looks at border walls in the United [00:19:23] States in Israel and in India which a [00:19:25] lot of people don't realize that India [00:19:26] has also uh talked about and has built [00:19:28] border walls to keep out you unsavory [00:19:31] people and how what the ideological [00:19:33] connections over the decades have been [00:19:34] between these three countries and how [00:19:36] they especially since uh 2001 uh [00:19:39] understand and engage with the question [00:19:41] of security, national security, citizen [00:19:44] versus non-citizen, savory citizen [00:19:46] versus unsavory citizen, so on and so [00:19:47] forth. Yeah. Yeah. And that kind of like [00:19:50] leads me into the next uh like question [00:19:52] because Kashmir has been central to this [00:19:55] and um I have gotten a lot of heat for [00:19:58] saying uh that I've gotten a lot of heat [00:20:00] and unfollows over you know the past two [00:20:03] weeks for saying something very [00:20:05] self-evident uh that uh Indian [00:20:09] administered that's the word Indian [00:20:10] occupied Kashmir is an actual military [00:20:13] occupation. If you just look at the [00:20:14] numbers, 600,000 military, paramilitary, [00:20:18] and law enforcement personnel, uh, [00:20:21] that's basically the entire US Army and [00:20:23] Marine Corps in an area smaller than [00:20:26] Colorado. So, if that's not a military [00:20:29] occupation, I don't I don't really know [00:20:32] what is. So my question for you is could [00:20:34] you please explain Israel's relationship [00:20:37] uh to India and in general and how it [00:20:40] informs policy in Kashmir because [00:20:42] governments definitely learn from each [00:20:43] other I would say. Yeah. And it's [00:20:46] interesting because when I um last week [00:20:48] or the week before again like time is [00:20:50] flat um I had posted something about how [00:20:53] India is absolutely taking out of uh [00:20:55] Israel's playbook when in when India [00:20:57] revoked the the the water treaty right [00:21:00] um it can do that and it will do that [00:21:02] just like any other country will [00:21:04] continue to do that including Pakistan [00:21:05] or whatever will do those type of things [00:21:07] to uh you know people who are in c [00:21:10] certain circumstances marginalized [00:21:12] circumstances um uh because it knows [00:21:15] that uh there's going to be impunity [00:21:17] right because if Israel can do [00:21:19] absolutely everything and anything why [00:21:23] can't any other country it's not just [00:21:24] India but any other country and I [00:21:26] remember I said that and um the way I [00:21:29] got completely lambasted on I was [00:21:32] expecting it from the Morinda trolls but [00:21:34] like especially from some on the left [00:21:35] who were like oh but Pakistan is not [00:21:38] Palestine I'm like I never said it was [00:21:39] this and that's a really important thing [00:21:41] I think sometimes people forget is that [00:21:42] just because we're saying that um India [00:21:45] is a lot like Israel. There's tight [00:21:47] relationship there. That does not mean [00:21:48] that Pakistan a nuclear armed country u [00:21:51] uh is is Palestine. No, if anything, [00:21:53] we're saying if there's a parallel to be [00:21:55] made, it's with Kashmir. Um and I think [00:21:57] it's also okay. So I'll start with kind [00:21:59] of a little bit about the um where this [00:22:00] relationship kind of starts and also [00:22:03] like where um we've seen it really [00:22:05] really explode. Um I mean again I'm [00:22:07] going to mention Azad Isa again because [00:22:09] I think he's written a fantastic book on [00:22:10] this called Hostile Homelands and [00:22:12] Hostile Homelands. in the description. [00:22:15] Oh, amazing. It's such a good It's also [00:22:17] easy read like it's such a a perfect [00:22:20] read. You can finish it in a weekend and [00:22:21] but it's so much information and he's [00:22:23] just a brilliant writer and researcher. [00:22:25] Um and in it he makes the argument that [00:22:27] no the relation so you know a lot of [00:22:29] times a lot of people including myself [00:22:31] in the past have said well the [00:22:32] relationship between India and Israel [00:22:33] really begins in 1991 with the with the [00:22:36] liberalization efforts that India begins [00:22:38] to undertake. It then also opens up [00:22:39] itself to Israel. He really traces it [00:22:42] further to that. He's like well we see [00:22:43] that India while it for decades was [00:22:46] presenting itself um as like an [00:22:48] anti-colonial uh champion because it had [00:22:50] to being part of the non-aligned [00:22:52] movement and kind of representing the [00:22:53] global south as one of the biggest [00:22:55] countries and being very anti- British [00:22:56] etc. We see that in a very clandestine [00:22:58] way it is working with Israel on like [00:23:01] multiple uh issues and whatnot. Um but [00:23:04] we really of course see this [00:23:05] relationship come to further fruition [00:23:07] and like really become emboldened in the [00:23:10] last 20some years. Um, of course, like [00:23:13] India is the largest um uh buyer of [00:23:16] Israeli arms. Israel is not the biggest [00:23:18] supplier of Israeli arms to India, but [00:23:20] it does provide a lot of arms per per [00:23:23] capita, if I'm not mistaken. roughly [00:23:25] roughly 20% of India's uh war making [00:23:28] material is from Israel and and and a [00:23:32] lot of people are like well okay but [00:23:33] then the Russians are providing the [00:23:34] other ones the Americans the it's like [00:23:36] yes absolutely but we have to understand [00:23:38] Israel right is a small little country [00:23:41] that's doing this not only that but a [00:23:43] lot of the weapons that it is um uh uh [00:23:46] the weapons and the surveillance tech [00:23:48] that Israel is testing on Palestinians [00:23:51] in Gaza in the West Bank are then [00:23:54] exported directly to India. And where [00:23:57] are those fielded? Right. They're [00:23:59] fielded first in Kashmir. I mean in [00:24:01] Kashmir, not only do you have anywhere I [00:24:03] I know you said 600,000, but I think the [00:24:04] numbers range from 600,000 to 1.2 [00:24:07] million Indian occupation forces there. [00:24:09] You have checkpoints, right? A lot of [00:24:12] one of the you know a lot of Kashmiris [00:24:13] were saying like when it came to the [00:24:15] Bahalgam um attack they're like how did [00:24:17] these fighters or these or these you [00:24:18] know militants what do you want to call [00:24:20] them how did they even make it there [00:24:23] with uh with their guns when one one [00:24:26] journalist he said it really in a in a [00:24:28] funny way he's like I as a journalist [00:24:30] who is Kashmir have to go through 10 [00:24:32] checkpoints to get there I can't even [00:24:34] take a fish with me how did they get [00:24:36] through with guns right but anyways um [00:24:38] so they're they're you know the the [00:24:40] surveillance There's also [00:24:41] disappearances. Disappearances is a big [00:24:43] thing in Kashmir. Um a minimum of 8 to [00:24:47] 10,000 men and boys have been [00:24:49] disappeared over the last 354 years. Um [00:24:52] even recently a population in Kashmir [00:24:54] called the good jurors. They've been [00:24:56] losing a lot of young men. Um and their [00:24:58] bodies they've been disappeared and then [00:25:00] their bodies are being found in like [00:25:02] canals. Aldiard did a great report on [00:25:04] this and of course people are saying oh [00:25:05] like Indian authorities are like oh it's [00:25:07] there's suicides but it's such a clear [00:25:10] pattern. Um so there's that relationship [00:25:13] which is the arms relationship which is [00:25:14] also the infrastructure of occupation [00:25:16] and surveillance as well. There's also [00:25:18] the ideological [00:25:20] um u uh relationship between the two, [00:25:24] right? It's about this one settler [00:25:25] colonial state seeing in another a [00:25:29] blueprint for how to uh control, [00:25:32] suppress and and narrate over um over [00:25:36] over the population that it is [00:25:38] occupying, right? Um both of these [00:25:41] states also um they frame quote unquote [00:25:44] Muslim resistance as always terrorism. [00:25:47] They both criminalize descent not only [00:25:49] within I mean look in Kashmir the [00:25:51] journalism is severely repressed. It's [00:25:54] severely repressed. Journalists are [00:25:55] routinely um uh arrested, thrown into [00:25:58] prison, shut down. Um it is a there is [00:26:01] no free press whatsoever in Kashmir. And [00:26:04] if you as a journalist, let's say you're [00:26:05] with Reuters, with AP, Alazer, what good [00:26:08] luck with Alazer, but if you're trying [00:26:09] to get into Kashmir, they're the Indian [00:26:11] authorities are extremely extremely um [00:26:14] and again this sounds familiar, right? [00:26:16] Who gets to go in, who doesn't get to go [00:26:18] in. So you're essentially being they [00:26:20] curate who is able to go in and who is [00:26:22] able to tell the story and even then [00:26:24] like a lot of these news organizations [00:26:27] um because they want to keep their [00:26:28] access there are certain things they're [00:26:30] willing to say and certain things [00:26:31] they're not willing to say when it comes [00:26:33] to uh uh what's happening also in [00:26:36] Kashmir um and so the India Israel [00:26:38] relationship I think is really best [00:26:40] understood as this like con convergence [00:26:42] of repression that um uh both of them [00:26:47] see that the populations that they [00:26:49] occupy um as as a problem that needs to [00:26:53] be managed and specifically the the [00:26:54] Muslim political identity as a problem [00:26:57] that needs to be managed and it's not [00:26:59] anything to be ever heard either by [00:27:01] themselves or by anyone else you know [00:27:04] abroad [00:27:05] right and you know when this uh when [00:27:08] this conflict first kicked off a new uh [00:27:11] because just like October 7th it didn't [00:27:12] start with the Paul gum attacks um yeah [00:27:15] we we interviewed a to Kashmir [00:27:18] journalists who used aliases, voice [00:27:20] modulators and no video. So that that [00:27:23] was just a demonstration of you know [00:27:25] also of course we're talking about [00:27:26] impunity and setting precedents for [00:27:28] what's now normalized in modern warfare [00:27:30] and occupation techniques. Well, [00:27:33] watching over 150 journalists directly [00:27:36] targeted by the Israeli Air Force uh [00:27:39] over the past 15 months definitely [00:27:41] informs what uh Indian authorities think [00:27:44] they can get away with now. So it's even [00:27:46] more [00:27:47] Absolutely. And not just I mean Yeah. [00:27:49] Exactly. And that makes I mean what [00:27:50] what's been allowed to happen in Gaza to [00:27:52] Palestinian journalists I think the [00:27:53] latest numbers are over 200 as well [00:27:55] journalists who have been targeted [00:27:57] journalists and media workers who've [00:27:58] been targeted and killed. Um which is of [00:28:00] course specifically because so that we [00:28:02] hear less and less from them which is [00:28:04] what's happening now. Um I mean that [00:28:07] sets the blueprint for every other state [00:28:10] group or whatever to target journalists [00:28:12] because there's just wanting um [00:28:14] impunity. Not just that, but there's [00:28:16] just no outrage. There's just outrage. [00:28:18] Yeah. And of course, I always try to [00:28:20] make this [00:28:21] like like like the these conflicts half [00:28:24] a world away or these policies half a [00:28:27] world away u basically matter to [00:28:31] American and UK citizens and everyone in [00:28:35] Europe because you know all those like [00:28:38] now that that normalization's happened [00:28:40] and now that the the crackdown on campus [00:28:42] protests in Palestine all part of the [00:28:44] same system, all part of the same [00:28:46] general ideological conflict [00:28:49] Um, yeah, it's it's all this is coming [00:28:51] to a local ice goon squad near you. So, [00:28:54] I think um I don't know. I kind of sent [00:28:57] you this question beforehand. Why and [00:28:59] before we move on to the more [00:29:00] geopolitical stuff, why should Americans [00:29:03] in particular and Western citizens in [00:29:05] general like career educate themselves [00:29:07] about what's happening in Kashmir? [00:29:10] Absolutely. I think there's there's like [00:29:11] there's two parts to this question. [00:29:13] There's like that they should, but also [00:29:15] will they, right? Yeah. Um when it comes [00:29:17] to Americans, I think too many [00:29:19] especially if we look at um whether it's [00:29:22] what's going on in the subcontinent or [00:29:24] whether what's going on in um in Gaza, I [00:29:27] think too many Americans think that [00:29:28] their government is a bystander or an [00:29:32] enabler um or is like being kind of like [00:29:37] uh roped into something it doesn't want. [00:29:39] Oh no, not like America being [00:29:41] strongarmed into like supporting this [00:29:43] horrible genocide as opposed to your [00:29:45] country is the overseer. Your country is [00:29:47] the overseer. Our country is the [00:29:49] overseer of this genocide. This genocide [00:29:52] would not be possible from day one. This [00:29:54] occupation could end tomorrow. This [00:29:56] occupation could have ended 70 years ago [00:29:59] even, right? Could have ended decades [00:30:01] ago. This occup this genocide could have [00:30:03] ended on October 10th. It could have [00:30:05] ended on, you know, it could have ended [00:30:07] so quickly. Um but it didn't because the [00:30:09] United States and specifically of course [00:30:11] for most of it President uh Joe Biden [00:30:13] did not want it to end. Um and so I [00:30:15] think one of the things that Americans [00:30:16] really need to contend with is like you [00:30:18] don't get the comfort you shouldn't get [00:30:21] the comfort of not thinking you care you [00:30:25] should care about this because what [00:30:27] first of all you're complicit. We're all [00:30:29] complicit in this, right? Whether it's [00:30:30] by virtue of our tax dollars or by [00:30:33] virtue of our silence or by virtue of [00:30:36] like whatever, you know, other [00:30:37] involvements that we have. Some are more [00:30:38] direct than others. But we're all [00:30:40] complicit in this. And I say this about [00:30:41] myself, too, that I am unfortunately [00:30:43] complicit in the slaughter of people I [00:30:45] consider my own. [00:30:47] Um but uh beyond that there's also um uh [00:30:52] uh [00:30:53] the there needs what is happening what [00:30:57] is being allowed to happen to [00:30:58] Palestinians there and then what is [00:31:00] happening also here to people who are [00:31:03] undocumented to people who are just [00:31:06] saying hey I don't agree with killing [00:31:09] babies and then they're being abducted [00:31:11] in the streets you know thrown into [00:31:13] private prisons which have no oversight [00:31:16] whatsoever. Um, and and having their [00:31:18] green cards revoked or their student vis [00:31:21] or if you're going for your uh, you [00:31:23] know, citizenship uh, interview and [00:31:25] you're getting picked up even though [00:31:26] you've done nothing wrong. Um, that [ __ ] [00:31:29] doesn't stay in neatly in place far away [00:31:33] from you. The rot that we create and [00:31:36] cultivate elsewhere, whether it's in [00:31:38] Gaza, whether it's in India, Kashmir, [00:31:42] Pakistan, all of that absolutely comes [00:31:45] home. All of it, it's already home. It's [00:31:48] already here. And the question is how [00:31:50] much worse it gets today. It may not [00:31:52] impact you directly, but I promise you [00:31:54] in the next little while it's going to [00:31:55] impact you direct. It's going to either [00:31:57] impact your wallet. It's either going to [00:31:58] impact your children. it's going to [00:32:00] impact your mother, your father, [00:32:02] someone, your friend, your neighbor, [00:32:03] something of that sort. And if that [00:32:05] still doesn't move you to maybe be like, [00:32:07] I should care about this. I should care [00:32:09] about what's going on, then I don't [00:32:11] think there is much um, for lack of a [00:32:13] better word, saving to do of like an [00:32:14] American soul. I really don't. Right. [00:32:18] I will never underestimate uh the [00:32:21] Americans comp uh complacency when it [00:32:24] comes to uh politics in general. And I [00:32:27] don't even think by the way like look [00:32:29] Americans to their credit no to their [00:32:33] credit right a lot of Americans have [00:32:35] showed up and showed out the fact that [00:32:37] we see sustained disruptions not just [00:32:39] protests in the streets right even [00:32:41] though like a lot of blue MAGA people be [00:32:43] like where where all the protests now [00:32:45] they're still happening there's so many [00:32:46] protests constantly happening but also [00:32:48] disruptions yeah don't give them all [00:32:51] these like former Biden administration [00:32:53] officials don't give them a moment of [00:32:55] peace keep reminding them of what they [00:32:56] part of the genocide is ongoing. It's [00:32:58] amazing. So to their credit, but the [00:33:00] complacency is something that also [00:33:02] impacts not just Americans but like [00:33:03] people everywhere. Whether it's across [00:33:05] the Gulf, whether it's across so many [00:33:07] Arab and Muslim states, whether it's [00:33:08] across um of course like Europe, etc. [00:33:11] But I think with Americans, there is a [00:33:15] much bigger burden to bear when it comes [00:33:18] to the responsibility of this and we [00:33:20] need to be seeing more and more of it. [00:33:22] But unfortunately because of how all our [00:33:25] institutions in this country are are [00:33:27] rely on one another for power um they're [00:33:30] not going to question right this [00:33:32] genocide and even honestly I think a lot [00:33:34] of people are like oh in the future when [00:33:35] we teach about the Palestine the [00:33:37] Palestinian genocide in our schools I'm [00:33:39] like that is a very very optimistic way [00:33:42] of looking at not only future but like [00:33:45] understanding of how American [00:33:46] imperialism works. Like, we don't even [00:33:48] call it a genocide of the indigenous [00:33:50] people of this land. We don't even call [00:33:53] it that. I'm like, what are you talking [00:33:55] about? They're not going to call this [00:33:57] this idea that it's going to somehow [00:33:59] we're going to hang our heads in shame [00:34:01] one day. I'm like, they won't unless you [00:34:03] force them to. But even then, this [00:34:05] country will not hang its head in shame. [00:34:07] Yeah. And you know, you have to also uh [00:34:10] people I hope realize that if if the [00:34:12] powers that be are willing to do it to [00:34:13] Palestinians, anyone years from now, [00:34:16] they're they're going to be willing to [00:34:18] do it to you as well. And you brought up [00:34:20] uh Israeli spy tech and then you talked [00:34:22] about kind of like the imperial [00:34:23] boomerang like colonial forms of [00:34:25] repression are like almost immediately [00:34:27] implemented back in like the imperial [00:34:29] corps. And I I'm just reminded of this [00:34:32] is kind of like not really a [00:34:33] nonsequittor, but I'm reminded of [00:34:35] arponet. I'm just going to pull up like [00:34:37] oh yeah the the Wikipedia thing for the [00:34:39] audience if you guys want to go down a [00:34:41] rabbit hole about like the first time [00:34:43] this demonstrabably instantly happened [00:34:46] between like a guerilla movement and a [00:34:49] protest movement inside the United [00:34:51] States is ARPANET. So uh ARPANET which [00:34:54] kind of started off as this kind of like [00:34:55] NASA program but was sheld but was [00:34:57] brought back during the Vietnam War was [00:34:59] the advanced research project agency [00:35:01] network. It was a pioneering computer [00:35:03] network basically the precedent of the [00:35:06] internet that served as the foundation [00:35:08] for the modern internet. It was [00:35:09] developed by the US Department of [00:35:11] Defense. So the internet has always been [00:35:13] part of the surveillance state in the [00:35:15] late60s to facilitate communication and [00:35:17] research sharing between institutions [00:35:20] and government agencies. Uh this is a [00:35:22] very vanilla take on what ARPANET was [00:35:24] actually used for. was used to track [00:35:27] Vietkong along the Ho Chi Min Trail and [00:35:31] anti-war activists in the United States [00:35:34] simultaneously. [00:35:36] You you know what's crazy is I you know [00:35:38] going back to this this question. I mean [00:35:40] you did a brilliant like job of showing [00:35:42] Arpanet and and where it started and [00:35:44] where it ended up. Um, but there's also, [00:35:46] it's so funny that it just didn't get [00:35:48] the the [00:35:49] due outrage that it needed to. But like [00:35:52] the Ronin Pharaoh um, uh, New Yorker [00:35:55] piece and also HBO documentary [00:35:57] Surveiled. In it, he mentioned something [00:35:59] which I was like, ding, ding, ding, [00:36:01] ding. This is it. This is what we're [00:36:02] talking about. He was talking about how [00:36:05] the he talks about how increasingly, [00:36:06] right, the US government is spying on [00:36:08] Americans, right? Um, and of course [00:36:11] there's that people are always like, [00:36:13] well, if I didn't do anything wrong, I [00:36:14] have nothing to worry about. And again, [00:36:16] just showing this like complete lack of [00:36:18] understanding what surveillance is and [00:36:20] how it doesn't matter if you did [00:36:22] something wrong or not, which is very [00:36:23] clear to us now. But in it, one of the [00:36:26] things that he talked about, which again [00:36:27] I'm so shocked didn't make I guess I'm [00:36:29] not shocked I didn't make bigger [00:36:30] headlines, but um is that he talks about [00:36:32] how he has proof of documents that show [00:36:35] deals between DHS and is under Biden, [00:36:38] right? DHS and NSO, which is the the [00:36:43] security firm that is behind the spyware [00:36:45] Pegasus that can infiltrate your phone [00:36:48] remotely. You don't have to click on [00:36:49] anything. I mean, I don't know. It could [00:36:51] be on my phone as far as I know, but [00:36:52] like it is insane that that's what DHS [00:36:56] is doing and it absolutely is probably [00:36:58] using them against activists in this [00:36:59] country right now as well as well as [00:37:01] others. You don't have to be an activist [00:37:03] at all, but that's a perfect example of [00:37:05] something that is happening elsewhere. [00:37:07] Your tax dollars are paying for all [00:37:09] things Israeli uh national security as [00:37:12] well as of course American national [00:37:13] security. So, it goes over there, it [00:37:15] gets created over there, and then guess [00:37:16] what? It's sold back over here and used [00:37:17] against you. And and we've also heard [00:37:20] about, you know, the Trump [00:37:21] administration, uh the the head of DHS, [00:37:24] Tom Hman, gloated about like the [00:37:26] possibility of using drones at the US [00:37:29] Mexico border. [00:37:31] Yeah. I mean, they've already they've [00:37:34] they've already been doing that for [00:37:36] quite a long time. I I live in Texas. Um [00:37:39] uh yeah, but I think what what they mean [00:37:41] is like being like, "Okay, now we're [00:37:43] going to like normalize it." Not just [00:37:45] along the border, not just along border [00:37:47] states, but also like in Florida [00:37:49] because, you know, one DHS official was [00:37:51] just arguing that Florida has the [00:37:53] largest border of any. Yeah, I saw that [00:37:57] too. They were talking about how, oh, [00:37:59] Florida's a border state because of this [00:38:00] reason and that reason. I was like, [00:38:03] okay. Because of ocean. Yeah. Okay. I [00:38:06] mean, I guess, but I guess I live in a [00:38:08] border state, but um yeah. No, it's uh [00:38:11] all of this stuff is is so and again, I [00:38:15] feel like even really well-intentioned, [00:38:17] knowledgeable Americans forget like all [00:38:19] of this is far more connected and [00:38:21] cyclical than it's not, right? And that [00:38:23] we also have to remember that America is [00:38:25] the empire. A country like Israel is a [00:38:28] client state of of of the United States. [00:38:30] It is not controlling the United States, [00:38:32] right? We have a different conversation [00:38:33] about undue like lobbying influence and [00:38:36] all that. Absolutely. But in terms of [00:38:38] like the United States is ultimately not [00:38:40] going to be bullied into doing anything [00:38:43] at home or abroad that it doesn't want [00:38:44] to do. That also isn't in line with its [00:38:46] interest in the short term. I mean we [00:38:48] have a conversation if in the long term [00:38:49] these the what it's doing right now is [00:38:51] actually going to be beneficial to it. [00:38:52] Probably not. No. I mean it's all about [00:38:54] short-term gains, you know. Absolutely. [00:38:57] I mean that's why you have like all [00:38:58] these realists right who are just like [00:39:01] these these political theorists realists [00:39:02] who are just sitting there in complete [00:39:04] shock and horror where they're like [00:39:06] excuse me we should be focus I mean Mir [00:39:08] Shammer I love him but he's like um I [00:39:09] think we should take out China before [00:39:11] worrying about anyone else like they're [00:39:12] just like why are we not seeing the long [00:39:15] term here where China's about to replace [00:39:17] us as a global power and we're focused [00:39:20] on seeing the o overseeing the [00:39:22] extermination of this of this nation for [00:39:24] the sake of Israel right Um yeah well [00:39:27] you that's an interesting point I mean [00:39:29] we are we have kind of lost all soft [00:39:31] soft diplomatic power u you know since [00:39:34] this like western values are kind of [00:39:35] shattered there I was actually talking [00:39:37] to some people in Iran and there's been [00:39:38] a large thrust of like the younger [00:39:40] generation to be like more like [00:39:42] westernized and you know that are [00:39:44] disenfranchised from you know the Kmeni [00:39:46] government and stuff but now like [00:39:48] looking at this they're it's just like [00:39:50] alienating like any allies you'd have in [00:39:52] the region and I wanted to bring this up [00:39:54] too cuz like talking about China. Well, [00:39:57] China's always been a geostrategic [00:39:59] target for the United States for a long [00:40:00] time. Since even before I was like in [00:40:02] the military, we were talking about like [00:40:04] when I was getting out, you have to go [00:40:06] to like a recruiter and they try to talk [00:40:09] you into staying into the military and [00:40:10] there like even then one of the [00:40:12] recruiting pitches was like, "Do you [00:40:13] want to miss out on the conflict over [00:40:16] Taiwan?" And this was back in like 2013. [00:40:18] I was like, "No, I'm good." But this has [00:40:20] always been a thing. But US foreign [00:40:24] policy seems to be less and less driven [00:40:26] by real politic and more by ideology. [00:40:29] But this kind of brings us back for the [00:40:32] the last segment to India as this [00:40:36] geostrategic chess piece for how uh the [00:40:39] US deals with China. I was going to [00:40:41] write like a little primer for it but um [00:40:44] I was scrolling through Twitter [00:40:46] yesterday and um uh Arnad Bertrron kind [00:40:49] of wrote something that I agree with. So [00:40:51] India is always as you said it was part [00:40:53] of the multi-alignment movement which [00:40:55] was basically global south countries [00:40:57] during the cold war like the USSR and [00:41:00] the United States as the two like [00:41:02] pre-minent superpowers obviously China [00:41:04] and Europe were involved in that too but [00:41:07] India [00:41:09] basically took this position of [00:41:11] strategic autonomy you know they would [00:41:13] have a security relationship with Russia [00:41:15] and develop a free market economy with [00:41:17] the United States and they kind of tried [00:41:20] to stay out of cold for politics and [00:41:22] also play both sides to their own [00:41:24] advantage like any other state would [00:41:26] that's kind of like the boiler plate and [00:41:28] so when he says like quote it's a [00:41:31] strategy of multi it's India's strategy [00:41:33] of multi-alignment both with the global [00:41:36] south and the west again because it's [00:41:38] part of bricks and also has this [00:41:39] relationship with the west as the only [00:41:41] like democracy in the region quote [00:41:43] unquote just like Israel it's meant to [00:41:45] court people on both sides but the [00:41:47] result illustrated by the global [00:41:49] reaction to the altercation with [00:41:50] Pakistan is much to the contrary. [00:41:52] Everyone sees India as hedging its bets [00:41:54] rather than standing on principle. Let's [00:41:56] be real in the global south people [00:41:58] almost universally see India as the weak [00:42:00] link in bricks. The country trying to [00:42:03] undermine collective south south [00:42:04] cooperation whether it conflicts with [00:42:06] its parallel ambitions of being embraced [00:42:09] by western powers. India's strong [00:42:11] Islamophobia obviously doesn't help when [00:42:13] such a huge portion of the global south [00:42:15] is Muslim. Uh and in the west it's much [00:42:18] the same story. People look at things [00:42:20] like Mod's record at home and strong [00:42:22] ties with Russia and view India as a [00:42:23] player they don't really identify with. [00:42:25] But just because the um average American [00:42:28] citizen doesn't really know what to do [00:42:30] with India, the uh war hawkish center [00:42:33] for strategic uh uh sorry center foreign [00:42:37] relations does. This is from a article [00:42:38] from last year. The quad US India [00:42:41] cooperation in addition to its role in [00:42:43] bricks India has become a key partner in [00:42:46] the United States strategy to counter [00:42:47] China's growing influence in the [00:42:49] Indo-Pacific. The quadrilateral security [00:42:52] dialogue quad uh consists of the United [00:42:55] States, India, Japan and Australia. [00:42:57] These three all these countries of [00:42:58] course are trying to isolate China. The [00:43:00] first Trump administration revived it as [00:43:02] part of its broader strategy to counter [00:43:04] China's assertiveness and the Biden [00:43:06] administration continued this policy uh [00:43:08] seeking to strengthen Quad as a pillar [00:43:10] of its Indo-Pacific strategy. So it's [00:43:13] kind of its role there has been a [00:43:15] subject of debate but um they're kind of [00:43:18] our from a foreign policy perspective [00:43:20] are ace in the whole in the whole region [00:43:22] as well. So I don't know how you see [00:43:24] this like playing out where India is [00:43:26] going to go with this. They're kind of [00:43:28] in a difficult position anyways. Yeah. I [00:43:31] mean, I think I will say this. I think [00:43:33] um I don't know how many people are in [00:43:35] in this world um especially in the [00:43:37] global south um are aware of Mod's [00:43:40] record at home, you know, the fact that [00:43:42] he is referred to as the butcher of [00:43:44] Gujarat, right? um and and how much [00:43:47] blood he has on his hands with that and [00:43:50] um where he uh you know oversaw and and [00:43:53] and allowed with impunity the the [00:43:55] slaughter of over 3,000 Muslims in [00:43:56] Gujarat state um back in oh my god 2003 [00:44:00] was it 2003 it's he still like the [00:44:02] governor or something the governor yeah [00:44:04] he was um so I think it was it's been a [00:44:06] need to u but you know like I mean [00:44:09] that's just one part of it and of course [00:44:11] his entire tenure as as um as prime [00:44:14] minister uh But I I do know like Indian [00:44:16] soft power is very powerful. Indian soft [00:44:19] power Bollywood is huge. I mean a lot of [00:44:23] people in the global south grew up with [00:44:24] Bollywood because maybe their own film [00:44:26] industries weren't that strong. I have [00:44:28] friends for instance from Afghanistan [00:44:30] where they were like we didn't have an [00:44:32] entertainment industry a film industry. [00:44:34] This is what we watch. I you know met [00:44:36] someone recently from Iraq who said like [00:44:38] their mother grew up you know watching [00:44:40] Bollywood. I have other friends in you [00:44:42] know from Nigeria, Kenya. I mean Nigeria [00:44:44] has an extremely robust um uh you know [00:44:47] entertainment and film industry or even [00:44:49] Egypt right like people saying that we [00:44:51] grew up with this stuff and that that [00:44:54] informs their understanding of India. I [00:44:56] will say that what happened this time [00:44:58] around and it really surprised a lot of [00:45:01] us because a lot of us like other folks [00:45:03] who kind of have a you know certain [00:45:05] understanding of India in terms of [00:45:07] especially what it's been like under [00:45:08] Modi since since 2014 but for a lot of [00:45:12] us we're really surprised at how kind of [00:45:14] incompetent and silly [00:45:17] and irrational India looked in all of [00:45:21] this and how Pakistan a country that [00:45:24] despite you know like my connection to [00:45:26] it. I am not here to defend that [00:45:28] military or government for sure. But [00:45:30] like how Pakistan in relationship looks [00:45:32] like a bit more cool-headed and a bit [00:45:34] more rational trying to trying to [00:45:35] deescalate being like listen like be [00:45:37] diplomatic. Let's not escalate. Let's [00:45:39] not and then um essentially forces uh [00:45:42] India's hand into a ceasefire. Um I [00:45:44] think this is going to be pivotal going [00:45:46] forward. Uh pivotal moment for India [00:45:48] going forward. there is a lot of uh [00:45:50] discontent right now internally it seems [00:45:52] within India and when I say discontent [00:45:55] again it's a country of 1.4 4 billion [00:45:56] people. So I'm going to say like when we [00:45:58] looking at some bits of like what's [00:46:01] being said in the news [00:46:02] media, there are some a lot of folks who [00:46:05] have, you know, interesting positions in [00:46:07] the country who are like this felt like [00:46:08] a surrender. This is embarrassing. Why [00:46:10] do we do this? Right? Let's not also [00:46:12] forget that that Modi's up for [00:46:14] reelection. So this this this entire, [00:46:17] you know, uh uh war, whatever you want [00:46:20] to call it, should also be seen in in [00:46:22] regards to in the context of that. But I [00:46:24] do think that again this is going to be [00:46:25] seen as an embarrassment for India and [00:46:28] it I do think is going to hurt its [00:46:30] trajectory not only in bricks but even [00:46:32] regionally and as I've been saying and [00:46:34] others have said as well um the real [00:46:37] winner in all of this is China because [00:46:40] the reason why the Pakistani air force [00:46:42] was able to achieve really like even by [00:46:46] its own standards like really incredible [00:46:48] wins and gains right was because it was [00:46:51] using a lot of also untested ed Chinese [00:46:55] um weaponry and systems right so we've [00:46:57] got the AWAC system the surveillance [00:46:58] system you've got the jets um you know [00:47:00] Pakistan has claimed that it's downed [00:47:02] anywhere from three to five Indian jets [00:47:04] uh we see that Chinese arms uh stocks [00:47:07] have gone up and up and up and up and up [00:47:09] over the last week [00:47:11] Raphael the French are just like yeah so [00:47:15] I mean this is like the world is [00:47:17] controlled also unfortunately by an arms [00:47:19] race it's the weapons manufacturers who [00:47:21] rule this world in a really real [00:47:23] unfortunate sense and in the end in this [00:47:25] all all of this China was the winner and [00:47:28] I I do think that was a calculation that [00:47:31] the Americans also had because you're [00:47:33] seeing this like you're seeing how [00:47:35] Pakistan is performing I mean look we [00:47:38] were getting very a lot of unconfirmed [00:47:40] information right like it's it was a [00:47:42] mess this is happening this is happening [00:47:44] we don't know what the hell's going on [00:47:45] even reporters were like well we need to [00:47:47] we need to figure out what the hell like [00:47:48] some Pakistani channels were saying [00:47:50] things like we have taken out all of [00:47:52] India's electric grid. I was like, "You [00:47:54] guys need to really relax with what this [00:47:55] information is." I saw one report uh 400 [00:48:00] Indian soldiers killed along the border. [00:48:02] Yeah. Exact. Like it's just like okay, [00:48:04] you guys lost an entire battalion. No. [00:48:06] Yeah. Exactly. It's like, okay guys, [00:48:08] relax. So, but what we do know is that [00:48:10] like obviously US government is going to [00:48:12] have much better intelligence on what's [00:48:14] happening on the ground, what's [00:48:15] happening with regards to the arms being [00:48:17] used and all that. They're going to have [00:48:18] a much better will it be perfect? [00:48:19] probably not but like they're going to [00:48:21] have a much better idea of all these [00:48:22] things. So um they knew what was going [00:48:25] on. They understood what Pakistan why it [00:48:28] was achieving certain things that it was [00:48:29] achieving in such a strong in a in a [00:48:31] small um uh uh period of time and of [00:48:33] course it had to end that because the [00:48:35] longer it would also continue it also [00:48:36] makes China I mean China would also [00:48:38] probably step in at some point but like [00:48:40] um so yeah in the end it was China that [00:48:42] really came out as the big winner here. [00:48:45] um and India absolutely as the biggest [00:48:47] loser not in this war but rather in like [00:48:50] its position globally. It's embarrassing [00:48:52] what it did and then how it because it [00:48:55] technically didn't win anything and so [00:48:57] by default it lost because it said we're [00:49:00] we're the only reason also right that it [00:49:02] gives for this military excursion into [00:49:05] Pakistan. It says we want to destroy [00:49:07] quote unquote terrorist infrastructure [00:49:09] and then you start attacking military [00:49:11] bases and it's like and of course it's [00:49:13] getting intercepted. It's it's [00:49:14] embarrassing. And also, who do you sound [00:49:16] like now? And you're revoking water [00:49:17] trees. And you're kicking out diplomats. [00:49:19] And you're blocking Twitter accounts. [00:49:21] You're blocking Pakistani actors and [00:49:23] actresses like their their accounts. And [00:49:25] like all of this, I mean, even today, [00:49:27] people in India, there was like a video [00:49:28] of people going and smashing a a store [00:49:32] because it was called Karachi Bakery [00:49:34] because it's based off of like certain [00:49:35] like it's like this is what people are [00:49:38] seeing and they're going to be like, yo, [00:49:40] that's a really there is something going [00:49:42] on there. And what they're going to also [00:49:44] related to is Zionists and Zionism in [00:49:46] Israel. They're abs a lot of people are [00:49:48] going to see those parallels without [00:49:49] that explicitly being made for them. [00:49:53] Yeah. And one one thing about the uh the [00:49:55] air battle which was supposed to be the [00:49:58] largest air aerial engagement since [00:50:01] World War II. No way to confirm that. Um [00:50:05] but I think a lot of people wanted the [00:50:08] conflict to end so they could study it. [00:50:10] Uh, you know, the war in Ukraine is [00:50:12] basically an open air weapons test. Uh, [00:50:15] a lot of people were talking about, uh, [00:50:17] like MIT was writing position papers [00:50:19] back in like 2013, like what would drone [00:50:22] warfare look like? It's probably going [00:50:24] to be incredibly deadly. No one can [00:50:25] anticipate what it does. Do we want to [00:50:27] use US soldiers to try and figure it [00:50:29] out? So, like the war in Ukraine, [00:50:31] perfect weapons, open air weapons [00:50:32] testing. And this is the same thing like [00:50:35] uh fourth and fifth generation fighter [00:50:37] craft have not got into a dog fight [00:50:39] since like the Iraq war. And the Iraq [00:50:41] war um the Iraqi air force was mostly [00:50:43] destroyed on the ground and completely [00:50:45] outclassed in the air. So that doesn't [00:50:46] count. Uh and then of course no one's [00:50:48] seen these Chinese fighters in action [00:50:50] either. So uh that's going to be a huge [00:50:52] point of interest as well. And of course [00:50:54] they didn't want the dimensions of the [00:50:56] conflict expanding. But yes, this idea [00:50:58] that [00:50:59] um I'm not really sure where like like [00:51:03] India is going to to go from this [00:51:05] because it kind of seems like after this [00:51:07] political blunder because that's what it [00:51:09] was. It it definitely seems like this. [00:51:12] Do they go east or west or sorry south [00:51:16] or north? [00:51:18] I think I think it's going to be if if [00:51:21] we if if India is a rational actor it [00:51:24] goes south. Yeah, but it [00:51:29] is especially Modi is showing India to [00:51:32] be extremely irrational right now. And [00:51:35] so I I don't know. I mean, I can't even [00:51:37] begin to speculate what's going to be [00:51:38] next, what India is going to do next. I [00:51:40] just don't whatever it is, it's not [00:51:41] going to be very rational for it. It's [00:51:43] not going to be very rational. I think [00:51:44] they're going to I do think that there's [00:51:46] a good chance. I mean, look, the [00:51:48] ceasefire is very fragile, right? Like [00:51:50] everyone's like, "Yeah, cool. Ceasefire. [00:51:52] Let's move on, etc." I'm like India was [00:51:54] quick with it to jump in and start like [00:51:58] you know to to to escalate hostilities [00:52:00] as it did. Um I mean that's pretty [00:52:02] terrifying that a country a nuclear [00:52:04] armed country would so quickly escalate [00:52:07] a situation with another nuclear armed [00:52:09] country. So I don't think we've seen the [00:52:10] last of Indian aggression um against uh [00:52:14] Pakistan. And also what we are [00:52:16] definitely going to well I don't know if [00:52:17] we're going to see it or hear about it [00:52:18] but it's going to happen is that the [00:52:20] repression in Kashmir is about to get [00:52:22] far worse. It's already [00:52:25] and then it will expand to Muslims [00:52:27] throughout the entire subcontinent. [00:52:28] That's and I think that's exactly what's [00:52:30] going to happen. I think that whatever [00:52:32] it does next, I don't know where what's [00:52:33] going to happen internationally, but [00:52:34] domestically within the borders that it [00:52:37] defines for itself, it's about to get [00:52:39] absolutely horrific for Muslims, both [00:52:42] through um state repression, but also [00:52:44] vigilante repression and violence as [00:52:46] well. It's about to get much worse than [00:52:47] it already is. Yeah. I mean, the the the [00:52:49] point about vigilantes is, I think, [00:52:52] pretty true. like they like a lot of if [00:52:56] you follow these Hindua accounts uh they [00:52:58] were really looking to devastate [00:53:00] Pakistan and you know deep down there's [00:53:02] some cognitive dis dissident like we are [00:53:05] the supremacists why didn't we just [00:53:07] destroy all their military bases and [00:53:09] destroy the port of Karach instigate an [00:53:12] uprising in Baloan and you know all this [00:53:15] crazy stuff uh now they're going to have [00:53:18] to just take out their rage and [00:53:19] confusion and frustration on the local [00:53:21] Muslim population and that is also I [00:53:23] think what a lot of uh representatives [00:53:25] from the BJP you know RSS I mean as is [00:53:28] part of obviously the is part of that [00:53:31] but also Modi they're going to probably [00:53:33] introduce some domestic laws I'm sure [00:53:36] and and just work more on displacing [00:53:38] Indian Muslims within India from their [00:53:40] homes which they've done as well um uh [00:53:43] like they've done I mean they've done it [00:53:45] with Indian Muslims with people who they [00:53:47] you know uh relegate as lower cast quote [00:53:49] unquote or people they say you're a [00:53:52] refugee from Burma, but they're, you [00:53:53] know, they've been in India for decades. [00:53:55] They just don't have documentation [00:53:57] because they're poor, whatever, right? [00:53:58] Like, they've been doing a lot of the [00:54:00] displacement for the last few years. And [00:54:02] I think that is going to get worse and [00:54:04] take center stage because it shows that [00:54:06] at least the government's doing [00:54:07] something quote unquote. And we know how [00:54:08] it goes, right? Um, so but I do I think [00:54:11] there might be a little something that [00:54:13] might happen with Pakistan again. But I [00:54:15] think the worst situation is going to be [00:54:17] in Kashmir and within again like the [00:54:19] borders that India defines for itself [00:54:20] for for the Muslim population in [00:54:22] particular. It's about to get really [00:54:24] it's already really ugly. We've heard [00:54:25] about the vigilante um violence that's [00:54:27] already increased across the country, [00:54:29] people getting killed or beat up in [00:54:32] women being threatened. Um you know I've [00:54:35] had I've heard friends uh in India, [00:54:37] Muslim friends who are like I need to [00:54:38] leave. I need to leave. like I live in [00:54:41] a, you know, upper middle class [00:54:42] situation and I'm by all accounts I [00:54:44] should be safe um where I live and I [00:54:47] don't feel safe and I need to leave. [00:54:48] Like that's how people are talking right [00:54:50] now. And um and I think yeah, it's [00:54:53] unfortunate but I think this is again [00:54:55] the landing point of what [00:54:57] reactionary fascist ideology gets you. [00:55:01] This is exactly what it gets you. You [00:55:03] don't need tanks in the streets to be [00:55:06] rounding up people and killing them or [00:55:08] displacing them. you can get your own [00:55:09] people to do it for you. Yeah. Um I mean [00:55:12] that's the entire purpose of like the [00:55:14] brown shirts in the first place. So [00:55:16] there's a degree of separation between [00:55:19] the government and their their goon [00:55:20] squads, you know. Exactly. So and then [00:55:24] boomerang that back to ICE. Wow. It's [00:55:27] been getting uh pretty pretty insane. Uh [00:55:31] no warrants. No warrants. No uh face [00:55:35] masks. you know, protesters aren't [00:55:37] allowed to wear masks, but they can, [00:55:38] too. So, wow. Which is nuts. Which I, if [00:55:41] I'm not mistaken, it's not um they [00:55:43] they're supposed to identify themselves, [00:55:46] and they they're this is what a lawyer [00:55:48] had told me that apparently they cannot [00:55:50] be hiding their faces. [00:55:52] So, there's a lawsuit out there if [00:55:55] anyone wants to maybe take that on. [00:55:57] Yeah. Um, I'm I'm sure someone is, but [00:55:59] you [00:56:00] know, I think like ju like like [00:56:02] everybody on on this side of the fence [00:56:05] when we started breaking our own uh [00:56:07] international laws like the Lehi law [00:56:09] about not providing weapons to a country [00:56:13] in violation of the law of land warfare [00:56:16] and international law. Well, you know, [00:56:18] we can also break domestic laws, too. [00:56:20] So, that's kind of how it works. Sure. [00:56:23] So, all right. Well, I think we covered [00:56:26] a lot of ground and uh this this kind of [00:56:28] ends our unless something else breaks [00:56:31] out crazy. Again, the ceasefire is [00:56:33] really uh fragile or are our our our [00:56:36] series for the time being on uh the [00:56:39] India Pakistan uh situation. I'm glad we [00:56:42] finally got to touch on it. Um I wish it [00:56:44] was under better [00:56:46] circumstances obviously, but um I want [00:56:48] to thank you so much for coming on. uh [00:56:50] Sana say I will link your uh socials in [00:56:53] the description if you want to follow [00:56:55] her on X or Instagram. Really appreciate [00:56:59] you coming on. Thanks for having me. All [00:57:01] right, y'all. This has been State of [00:57:03] Play on Mint Press News, your Monday [00:57:07] uh sorry, your Monday geopolitical [00:57:09] episode uh that unpacks all the horrors [00:57:12] of the weekend. So, cheers y'all. Uh, I [00:57:15] hope this was insightful and we will see [00:57:17] you