What Gives Human Life Its True Worth?

[00:00:00] I want to make the argument that it is [00:00:02] not life in of itself that we value, but [00:00:05] it is the human experience that we [00:00:07] value. [00:00:08] >> No, I don't I don't agree though. [00:00:10] >> Okay. Should we have let Are you [00:00:13] familiar with the Terry Shaveo case? [00:00:15] >> Very. [00:00:16] >> Should we have let her uh basically be [00:00:18] unplugged? [00:00:19] >> Well, it's a question of we. Who is we? [00:00:20] The government, society, or the family [00:00:22] that made the ultimate decision? [00:00:24] >> It can be any. [00:00:25] >> Well, no, it actually matters. [00:00:26] >> So, which we are we talking about? the [00:00:28] doctors, the medical professionals, the [00:00:30] county, the state of Florida, [00:00:31] >> right? I mean, there's a lot there's [00:00:32] like nine different layers involved in [00:00:34] this. [00:00:35] >> But so, let me just educate the [00:00:36] audience. The Terry Shybo case is the [00:00:38] most high-profile quote unquote brain [00:00:40] dead case of this modern era. [00:00:42] >> Beautiful young woman goes into [00:00:44] basically a coma. And what ensued was a [00:00:46] series of lawsuits where some people in [00:00:48] the family wanted to keep her on life [00:00:50] support and some people wanted to [00:00:52] basically pull the plug. The government [00:00:54] intervened. However, someone who is [00:00:57] quote unquote brain dead is actually far [00:00:59] more alive than you might realize. [00:01:02] Did you know that someone that is brain [00:01:04] dead, a woman for example, she still [00:01:06] goes through her menstrual cycle? [00:01:08] >> So, if a woman is brain dead, how is she [00:01:10] still menstruating and ovulating? Maybe [00:01:13] we are more than just our brain [00:01:15] activity. Maybe there's a lot that [00:01:17] happens in our being beyond just what we [00:01:20] can detect on a spec scan. Secondly, a [00:01:23] brain deadad person because I know I [00:01:24] understand where you're going towards [00:01:26] this. Sure. [00:01:26] >> A brain dead individual, quote unquote [00:01:29] brain dead. There have been instances, [00:01:31] albeit very rare, where people that have [00:01:33] no detectable brain activity actually [00:01:36] come out of that and they have full [00:01:38] consciousness. Very, very rare, but [00:01:40] those are documented cases. Did you know [00:01:42] that someone that is brain dead, if you [00:01:45] happen to, let's just say, put a knife [00:01:47] in their knee, [00:01:48] >> their norepinephrine and their [00:01:49] adrenaline increases, even though they [00:01:51] are brain dead, their immediate [00:01:53] adrenaline response goes up. And so what [00:01:56] you consider is brain dead, they're [00:01:57] actually very much alive. Let me make [00:01:59] one final point at to the menstruation [00:02:02] part. A brain dead woman can get [00:02:04] pregnant and deliver a child. [00:02:08] >> She's not dead. It's just that her brain [00:02:10] waves have decreased significantly. [00:02:12] >> May I respond? [00:02:13] >> Yeah, sure. Excellent. Uh, so there was [00:02:15] a lot to unpack there. Uh, and because [00:02:17] there's so much I uh and we only have so [00:02:19] much time. I'm going to address the [00:02:20] first thing that you said between uh who [00:02:22] should we uh who is we and to that I [00:02:25] would probably I'm not going to make a [00:02:28] hard standing on this, but at least at [00:02:29] first thought I would argue that it is [00:02:31] between the uh loved ones of Terry [00:02:34] Shaveo and the doctors who are taking [00:02:36] care of there. think that's a question [00:02:38] that's between uh the person who is [00:02:40] injured uh the people taking care of [00:02:42] them and the doctors. [00:02:45] >> So let's let's fast forward this to [00:02:46] abortion and I can kind of cut to the [00:02:48] essence of it. When does life begin? [00:02:50] >> Conception. [00:02:51] >> Oh, it does begin at conception. I [00:02:53] agree. Okay. So then should every life [00:02:54] be protected postconception? [00:02:57] >> I believe that every conscious [00:02:59] experience that the human body has [00:03:01] should be protected not necessarily life [00:03:03] in of itself. As I personally and as [00:03:06] many people in the audience would agree, [00:03:08] if I became brain dead, if I or you [00:03:11] became brain dead, brain dead. And there [00:03:14] was no chance of you ever waking up, you [00:03:17] probably would want them to pull the [00:03:19] plug. And if you disagree, that's okay. [00:03:20] But I don't think that's the case. [00:03:21] >> Hold on. But a four-week old baby left [00:03:24] uninterrupted and properly nourished [00:03:27] >> does wake up and have full consciousness [00:03:28] and brain waves. [00:03:29] >> Correct. [00:03:30] >> So it's a completely different thing. [00:03:31] You're talking about someone that has [00:03:32] very little likelihood of brain activity [00:03:34] reemerging versus a unborn baby in [00:03:37] uterero who inevitably will almost [00:03:39] certainly have brain activity. So [00:03:41] interrupting one actually prevents the [00:03:43] development of consciousness where [00:03:46] interrupting the other actually does not [00:03:50] respond. [00:03:52] >> Uh the issue I have with this is the [00:03:54] conscious experience hasn't begun yet. [00:03:56] For example, um let's say this person [00:03:58] right here to my left, if like I I I [00:04:00] like punch [snorts] him really hard. [00:04:02] There is a person who we give moral [00:04:04] consideration to that I have enacted [00:04:06] violence upon the and we can make a [00:04:09] objective statement on that or he he [00:04:12] obviously has a conscience. We can agree [00:04:13] on that. We can make an objective [00:04:14] statement that I have uh violated uh [00:04:17] what he wants. Uh but the thing is a [00:04:20] fetus uh prior to approximately 20 weeks [00:04:22] um or at least that's what I've read [00:04:24] does not have a conscious experience. [00:04:26] Therefore it cannot care. [00:04:28] >> Brain waves start a lot earlier than [00:04:30] that. They start around 8 to 10 weeks. [00:04:31] But brain waves and consciousness are [00:04:33] not necessarily the same thing. Right. [00:04:35] >> Correct. [00:04:35] >> So this is where we differ. [00:04:37] >> Yes. [00:04:37] >> We believe that the human experience is [00:04:40] more than just brain waves. [00:04:42] >> Mhm. [00:04:42] >> And I've proven it to you that your body [00:04:44] still continues to function even though [00:04:46] your brain is brain dead. menstruate, [00:04:48] adrenaline spike, so on and so forth. [00:04:50] There is evidence to show that there's a [00:04:52] lot more going on here than just the [00:04:54] material between both of your ears. [00:04:56] >> I suppose the question that I would ask [00:04:58] though is do we have a moral right to [00:05:02] protect humans along the stage of [00:05:04] development regardless of whether or not [00:05:06] they can feel or sense experience at [00:05:08] those that period of time? [00:05:09] >> Do you mind if I rewind back to Terry [00:05:10] Shabo because I don't think you gave an [00:05:12] objective answer to this. Should we have [00:05:14] unplugged Terry Shabo who would have [00:05:16] never woken up? [00:05:17] >> That wasn't my family member. It's a [00:05:19] very difficult [00:05:20] >> Let's say you were. [00:05:20] >> The answer is I don't know. [00:05:22] >> Um if you had to guess or let's say you [00:05:24] do have a family member and it does [00:05:26] happen. We can do it. [00:05:27] >> It depends on the patients wishes first [00:05:29] and foremost. [00:05:30] >> Let's say you don't know. [00:05:31] >> Yeah, it's a again it's a very [00:05:32] subjective thing. I I tend to go towards [00:05:35] life. I tend towards to go the [00:05:36] continuation of life. [00:05:38] >> Okay. So then you um let's say you have [00:05:41] a very close uh relative and that person [00:05:44] would not ever wake up from a persistent [00:05:47] vegetative state then you would not [00:05:50] allow that person um effectively like [00:05:52] euthanasia. So uh yes it's too much of a [00:05:55] hypothetical. I don't know because it [00:05:57] depends on circumstances. There's a lot [00:05:59] of there's a lot of difficulties and [00:06:00] complexities. It depends on their age [00:06:02] depends on their case history. It [00:06:04] depends on whether or not they're [00:06:05] responding to people's voices. All sorts [00:06:07] of different things. However, there are [00:06:09] two you are conflating two separate [00:06:11] things. You're talking about one that is [00:06:12] highly likely to stay in a vegetative [00:06:14] state versus a being that is along [00:06:16] >> Can the crowd be quiet, please? I'm [00:06:18] trying to listen. [00:06:18] >> Is alongside a process of human [00:06:20] development. [00:06:21] >> Can [00:06:23] be quiet, please. [00:06:24] >> We we just have we have a fundamental [00:06:26] difference. [00:06:26] >> Sure. [00:06:27] >> Of what we believe a human being is. We [00:06:29] believe a human being is far more than [00:06:31] just consciousness and reason. And we we [00:06:34] know this. I mean, this is objectively a [00:06:36] proven fact. You are more than your five [00:06:38] senses. Would you agree with that? [00:06:40] >> Um, I don't know how to answer that. [00:06:42] >> So, I want you to think for a second. [00:06:44] Are you only five senses? [00:06:46] >> Uh, the best I can answer is I and this [00:06:49] is going to be very vague, but because [00:06:50] that's a very hard question to ask. I am [00:06:52] essentially me. The five senses are a uh [00:06:54] incorporate part of me, but um I don't [00:06:57] think that necessarily pertains to my [00:06:58] No, it does personally. [00:06:59] >> Well, it does because basically [00:07:01] consciousness is exhibited in five [00:07:02] senses, [00:07:04] >> right? [00:07:05] >> Maybe. I don't know. [00:07:06] >> Okay. It is. So, but the point being is [00:07:09] which one of your five senses tells you [00:07:11] there's only five? There's something [00:07:12] above just your five senses that [00:07:14] transcend it. [00:07:14] >> This sounds kind of like a non-secular [00:07:16] argument when you make this like [00:07:18] ascension like thing and we have to keep [00:07:20] >> No, I mean, you can be a secularist and [00:07:22] still believe in a soul. [00:07:23] >> You can believe an idea that there is a [00:07:25] there is a being within you that is [00:07:27] above reason. [00:07:28] >> So, anyway, we're just going to [00:07:29] disagree. I Let me ask you just one [00:07:31] final question. [00:07:32] >> Oh, wait, wait. Because I'm approaching [00:07:33] you, can I ask uh this? [00:07:35] >> Yeah, sure. I mean it has been a little [00:07:36] yeah sure than you but uh the thing uh [00:07:39] the ultimate crux of my argument is that [00:07:41] because there is no sensience right in [00:07:44] the same way like if I were to punch a [00:07:46] person there's a person with a clear [00:07:47] consciousness uh that I am uh uh [00:07:51] enacting violence upon and this is a bad [00:07:53] thing but because there was never [00:07:54] consciousness to ever experience I don't [00:07:57] understand how we can have harm or [00:07:58] suffering in that moral system since [00:08:00] nothing was ever negatively acted upon [00:08:02] uh question if I go under general [00:08:05] anesthesia Do you have a right to kill [00:08:06] me? [00:08:06] >> You already agreed with me that we need [00:08:08] to uh value the rights of people who are [00:08:11] unconscious. You already agreed. [00:08:12] >> No, no, I know. But if I if I'm [00:08:15] generally if I'm under general [00:08:16] anesthesia. [00:08:17] >> Yes. And you are unconscious. [00:08:18] >> Okay. So, but explain to me the [00:08:19] difference between unconsciousness and [00:08:21] then the Terry Shybo case because people [00:08:22] come out of brain dead all the time. [00:08:24] >> You just said it was extremely rare and [00:08:26] also we have very great methods of [00:08:29] determining whether someone's going to [00:08:30] be in a persistent vegetative state. So, [00:08:33] we do have the tools to be able to tell [00:08:35] when a person is going to come back. [00:08:37] >> I I keep going back to this, but is a 6- [00:08:38] week old baby going to stay in a [00:08:40] persistent vegetative state? [00:08:41] >> No, but it doesn't have an experience to [00:08:43] begin with and therefore why is it [00:08:45] granted moral consideration? [00:08:46] >> Got it. Because we believe that all [00:08:48] human life is equal regardless [00:08:51] regardless of its size, level, [00:08:53] development, environment, or its degree [00:08:54] of dependency. [00:08:56] >> But then people who say that they would [00:08:57] pull the plug on Terry Shabo are now [00:08:59] violating that principle. No, [00:09:00] >> not necessarily. Again, the the Shybo [00:09:02] case has a lot more complexities. And [00:09:04] again, to to conflate a brain dead [00:09:07] individual with a fetus that is [00:09:09] struggling to develop and alive or a [00:09:10] baby, they're two completely different [00:09:12] things. [00:09:13] >> Um, no. Yeah, you're right. And that's [00:09:14] one entire life ahead of it. So, so I'm [00:09:18] sorry, I'm getting excited. [00:09:20] >> The thing with Cherry with uh Terry [00:09:22] Shaveo is that she would never have a [00:09:24] human experience whatsoever. [00:09:26] >> I I do want to get to the next question, [00:09:27] but let me just ask you one final thing. [00:09:29] Um, [00:09:30] >> would you like to see less abortions in [00:09:32] America? [00:09:33] >> Um, it depends on the context. [00:09:35] >> Okay. [00:09:35] >> As long as something as long as uh no [00:09:38] moral harm is done to a uh that we give. [00:09:41] >> Are you glad you were not aborted? [00:09:43] >> Um, if I was aborted, I wouldn't care [00:09:46] cuz I wouldn't you wouldn't exist. You [00:09:47] wouldn't care. And that's a fact. [00:09:50] >> We we we have a we have a big difference [00:09:52] of opinion. The final thing I'll say is [00:09:54] this. We believe that life is a gift and [00:09:55] an amazing thing. And to deprive another [00:09:58] being of life is you then using [00:10:00] basically your incumbent power structure [00:10:03] to interrupt somebody else from being [00:10:04] able to flourish and prosper, which we [00:10:06] consider to be the apex of immorality. [00:10:08] Thank you so much. We appreciate it. [00:10:09] >> Thank you for having me. Uh, thank you [00:10:10] all. [00:10:11] >> Thank you.