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[00:00:00] Do you perform for an audience and do [00:00:03] things that are exttrinsically rewarded [00:00:08] with rewards by the way that I think are [00:00:10] just air by and large they don't [00:00:12] translate to anything for you. But do [00:00:14] you basically import your motivations, [00:00:19] conform your motivations to serve this [00:00:22] faceless audience of mostly strangers? [00:00:25] >> Tim. [00:00:26] >> Yes, sir. We're getting ready to do a [00:00:27] [ __ ] awesome interview, but uh I got [00:00:30] a hot question for you. [00:00:31] >> I'm ready. [00:00:31] >> All right, here we go. Do you think Gen [00:00:34] Z and Gen Alpha are getting addicted to [00:00:36] the motivational trap, consuming [00:00:39] constant hype seen on social media and [00:00:41] being sold a lie that feels like [00:00:43] progress but keeps them stuck? [00:00:46] Yes. Uh the short answer is yes. I would [00:00:49] say that furthermore, I would say that [00:00:53] younger generations, although I feel [00:00:54] like the youngest actually are kind of [00:00:57] hip to the grift in a sense. [00:00:58] >> I think that too. [00:00:59] >> I think the youngest are hip to the [00:01:01] grift. I think that people are who are [00:01:03] non native social media users, so a [00:01:07] little bit older. my generation [00:01:08] certainly I would say I'm 48 so let's [00:01:10] just call it 30 plus are particularly [00:01:14] susceptible to [00:01:17] performative [00:01:19] achievement. So not actual achievement [00:01:22] but displaying online [00:01:26] what will get the most [00:01:28] likes, what will get the most comments, [00:01:31] what will get the most quote unquote [00:01:32] engagement, [00:01:34] the value of which is almost entirely [00:01:35] captured by platforms. Right? So [00:01:38] platforms are very good at incentivizing [00:01:39] this, but I would say that there's [00:01:42] getting results and there's [00:01:45] displaying the theater of results. [00:01:47] >> And those are not the same thing. [00:01:50] >> But you can very easily slip, right? [00:01:52] Just like you can slip with like real [00:01:54] metrics that matter in your life versus [00:01:56] like vanity metrics that get applause, [00:01:59] cheap applause, but that actually aren't [00:02:00] pushing you forward where you want to [00:02:01] go. Mhm. [00:02:02] >> Um, so I think the the the sort of [00:02:06] Bermuda triangle of [00:02:09] direction and integrity are actually [00:02:10] people who are a little bit older. I, as [00:02:13] I've seen at least with the kids of [00:02:15] friends of mine who are now high school, [00:02:18] college, like they're they're pretty [00:02:20] smart. They're very, I think, well tuned [00:02:24] to how fake and elucory most things are [00:02:28] online. That's my impression. [00:02:31] But it's the people who started analog [00:02:34] or the people who just started [00:02:36] >> when things were naent [00:02:38] >> who have like one foot in the old world [00:02:41] >> like we can trust in the great lady and [00:02:43] this other thing. [00:02:44] >> It's the people have one foot kind of [00:02:46] dragging out of that old world and who [00:02:48] are now stepping into the new who I [00:02:49] think are the suckers at the table. [00:02:51] >> Really? [00:02:51] >> Yeah. [00:02:52] >> What do what do you what do you think [00:02:54] that question means by the motivational [00:02:56] trap? [00:02:59] Well, if if I have to take a stab at it, [00:03:02] I'd say the motivational trap is [00:03:07] do you perform for an audience and do [00:03:10] things [00:03:11] >> that are exttrinsically rewarded [00:03:15] with rewards, by the way, that I think [00:03:17] are just air by and large. They don't [00:03:19] translate to anything for you. But do [00:03:21] you basically contort your motivations, [00:03:26] conform your motivations to serve this [00:03:29] faceless audience of mostly strangers? [00:03:32] Or do you have some northstar that gives [00:03:35] you this intrinsic motivation to do [00:03:37] something? Have you thought that through [00:03:39] for yourself or is this quote unquote [00:03:42] audience shaping where you go? I think [00:03:45] that is probably how I would interpret [00:03:48] that. Super dangerous. super super [00:03:50] dangerous and people can look up [00:03:51] something called audience capture also [00:03:54] uh through which there's some very good [00:03:56] writing on audience capture but where [00:03:58] you might have somebody let's just say [00:04:00] who is a YouTuber who creates a channel [00:04:03] eating all sorts of junk food in massive [00:04:05] quantities that's thetick [00:04:07] >> and then over time and there's there are [00:04:10] real examples of this someone goes from [00:04:11] being like a fairly normal high [00:04:15] functioning person to being morbidly [00:04:17] obese and they get rewarded. This is [00:04:20] true for everyone, but for generally [00:04:22] their most extreme viewpoints, their [00:04:24] most extreme behaviors. [00:04:27] And as those are reinforced, if you take [00:04:31] the bait and you start doing more of it [00:04:33] and more of it and more of it, then you [00:04:36] become this funhouse mirror version of [00:04:38] yourself. But I think the [00:04:41] point that gets lost is if you wear a [00:04:44] mask long enough, you become the mask. [00:04:47] Man, I talk about this [ __ ] all the [00:04:50] time. [00:04:51] >> Yeah, [00:04:52] >> that is a [ __ ] prison. [00:04:55] >> Yeah, you gota be care. [00:04:56] >> You got to be careful what you pretend [00:04:57] to be. [00:04:58] >> If you have characterized yourself, [00:05:01] it's I mean you are falling into a [00:05:04] [ __ ] trap that you will everybody [00:05:06] will expect you to be that character for [00:05:08] the rest of your life. If you're in that [00:05:12] character is going to get old because [00:05:13] it's not you. [00:05:14] >> Yeah. [00:05:15] >> Yeah. I see it. I've seen it with a lot [00:05:17] of [00:05:19] I've seen it with a lot of old friends [00:05:22] who got caught up in the in the social [00:05:24] media thing, became put on a character, [00:05:27] and now [00:05:29] 5 10 years later, they're like, "Fuck, [00:05:31] man." Like, [00:05:33] >> yeah, [00:05:34] >> it's sad. It's sad to watch. [00:05:36] >> Hit it into a corner. [00:05:37] >> You know, it's interesting though. I [00:05:39] think like my pers so that question was [00:05:42] uh that's from U Kimell who you met [00:05:44] earlier but [00:05:46] the way I read that question I think [00:05:50] what comes into my mind is you see these [00:05:52] you see these it's almost like a band of [00:05:55] characters [00:05:57] and they're all on a billboard and it's [00:05:59] that motivational crowd [00:06:01] >> and you get you know and I I've [00:06:07] >> you see the same people [00:06:09] >> going over and over and over and over [00:06:11] and again to the same [ __ ] [00:06:12] motivational [ __ ] and [00:06:16] >> and a lot of the guys that are on this [00:06:18] motivational segment I think are [00:06:20] phonies. [00:06:20] >> Yeah. I don't I don't know another way [00:06:22] to they haven't done what they're [00:06:24] preaching, but they're making a [ __ ] ton [00:06:26] of money motivating everybody [00:06:28] uh uh with their character, you know, as [00:06:32] disguised as some insane insanely [00:06:36] successful entrepreneur, which actually [00:06:38] I guess they are because they are [00:06:39] [ __ ] conning, you know, people. But [00:06:43] um you I think that's what the I think [00:06:45] that is kind of what the question is [00:06:47] catered towards is is people that that [00:06:49] that and maybe they do get something out [00:06:51] of it. Maybe they get a lot out of it. I [00:06:53] don't know. But [00:06:54] >> I see a lot of people that get they just [00:06:56] keep going to these motivational [00:06:58] >> Yeah. It's it's become a lot [00:07:02] more complicated in [00:07:05] >> sort of a digital immersive world. In [00:07:08] other words, how do you separate real [00:07:11] operational expertise? Someone who can [00:07:14] walk the walk from someone who is [00:07:17] cosplaying, someone who is giving all [00:07:20] the outward appearances of being good at [00:07:22] something. So for instance, I mean [00:07:23] that's been a task for me whenever I'm [00:07:26] working on books for instance if I'm if [00:07:28] I want to look at dog training as an [00:07:31] example. Might sound like a weird [00:07:33] example but [00:07:34] >> a lot of fake dogs. are yeah there are [00:07:36] thousands and thousands of people with [00:07:40] YouTube channels and Instagram accounts [00:07:44] showing what appears to be amazing dog [00:07:46] training but similarly it's like the [00:07:49] people who are kicking bottle caps off [00:07:51] of bottles it's like yeah if you do [00:07:52] 10,000 takes you're probably going to [00:07:54] have one take that looks pretty good but [00:07:56] how do you then if you want to study [00:07:59] someone who is a legitimate practitioner [00:08:01] separate fact from fiction and the only [00:08:03] way that I found to do it was to look [00:08:05] for something with objective scoring [00:08:08] with documentation like dog agility [00:08:11] training. It's like okay like these are [00:08:13] live televised recorded events like who [00:08:16] has the best track record in something [00:08:17] like that. Okay, I assume that person is [00:08:20] like verifiably expert in what they do [00:08:24] and let's just try to look for people [00:08:27] who have that type of documented track [00:08:30] record. It's it's harder to do in some [00:08:32] other domains, but that particularly in [00:08:36] a post AI world, not that I want to drag [00:08:38] us into that pit, but [00:08:41] the separation, the distinction, [00:08:44] learning to distinguish between real and [00:08:47] fake expertise is going to be really, [00:08:50] really, really important. And if you [00:08:52] can't, then default ignore. And if you [00:08:55] can't, if you don't have means to do [00:08:57] that, then default ignore. [00:08:58] >> Yep. [00:09:00] Word of mouth recommendations. [00:09:02] >> Yeah. Yeah. [00:09:03] >> Goes a long way. At least in my world. [00:09:05] >> Yeah. [00:09:06] >> But uh Well, thank you, Tim. Of [00:09:08] >> course. [00:09:08] >> Perfect. 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