📄 Extracted Text (57,349 words)
[00:00:05] Yeah. So, um, kind of what we were
[00:00:07] saying in the car, you know what I mean?
[00:00:09] Like, just think of it as a legacy piece
[00:00:12] for your kids, just like you were
[00:00:13] saying. Like, that's it's kind of how
[00:00:15] this whole damn thing started. So, it's
[00:00:18] pretty pretty uh cool some of the
[00:00:22] content that's come out that'll just be
[00:00:24] like generations,
[00:00:26] >> you know what I Well, I mean, it's
[00:00:28] pretty surreal to be in the studio, man,
[00:00:30] after having watched so many episodes.
[00:00:31] So,
[00:00:32] >> Oh, thanks, dude.
[00:00:34] >> Yeah, I never know like who watches and
[00:00:36] who doesn't, but those those uh rounds
[00:00:38] came out of the um one of the Red Wings
[00:00:41] birds.
[00:00:42] >> No [ __ ]
[00:00:42] >> Yep.
[00:00:43] >> Which ones?
[00:00:44] >> Those ones up under the flag. That was
[00:00:46] my best friend. Uh
[00:00:49] and yeah, there's What else is in here?
[00:00:52] >> Who Who was that on Red Wings? Uh he
[00:00:56] wasn't in there. He was uh Gabe Bardi.
[00:00:58] >> Okay.
[00:00:59] >> Was his name. And uh it was his platoon.
[00:01:02] But he
[00:01:03] >> he was uh at home cuz he got a chick
[00:01:07] pregnant.
[00:01:08] >> Mhm. That happens.
[00:01:09] >> And he went home cuz there was a
[00:01:11] complication. Got home. Baby's dead.
[00:01:14] Mom's dead. In the hospital.
[00:01:18] >> Doesn't tell anybody. Goes back to 10.
[00:01:21] Says, "I just want to go back to my
[00:01:23] platoon." doesn't. They're like, "Your
[00:01:25] platoon's coming home. We'll send you to
[00:01:27] the Afghanistan." Half your guys went
[00:01:28] over there. Lands at Frankfurt. Finds
[00:01:31] out all this [ __ ] Latrrell's on the run
[00:01:33] and all those [ __ ] guys are dead all
[00:01:36] in like 48 hours.
[00:01:38] >> [ __ ] dude.
[00:01:39] >> Yeah.
[00:01:39] >> The um that [ __ ] went down when I was on
[00:01:43] my first deployment with my uh RC135
[00:01:48] squadron. So, my first job in the
[00:01:50] military was sitting on this big ass
[00:01:53] [ __ ] submarine in the sky called an
[00:01:55] RC135 and you're like sucking up all
[00:01:59] this signals, intelligence from, you
[00:02:01] know, 30,000 ft in the air. And
[00:02:06] I was just about to rotate home and the
[00:02:09] crew that was going to replace us came
[00:02:11] in and then uh we all got briefed up
[00:02:13] that, you know, Red Wings had gone down
[00:02:16] and there was a dude missing and he
[00:02:18] might have a [ __ ] uh PRD on him uh or
[00:02:22] like a Cell or whatever, whatever they
[00:02:24] were carrying back then. Uh, and so we
[00:02:27] just did racetracks like all over
[00:02:30] eastern Afghanistan like looking for
[00:02:31] that thing, monitoring the guard
[00:02:33] frequencies and um I can't remember if
[00:02:37] we helped find it or not. Um, but it was
[00:02:40] like me, my crew, and another one that
[00:02:42] were just swapping back and forth every
[00:02:44] every day flying racetracks trying to
[00:02:46] find Marcus.
[00:02:48] >> Jeez.
[00:02:50] >> Yeah. Crazy crazy times.
[00:02:52] >> What do you think about that? Uh, I
[00:02:54] mean, being an EW guy, what's this
[00:02:55] Venezuela [ __ ] The discombobulator.
[00:02:58] >> The discombobulator. Yeah. There's a lot
[00:03:00] of speculation about what went down on
[00:03:03] on that op, but to me, that op was
[00:03:09] so calm coming home after Eagleclaw,
[00:03:12] man. Like after all that [ __ ] went down
[00:03:14] in 1980 trying to get the hostages out
[00:03:16] of Theron, the
[00:03:19] the fact that we can just go reach out
[00:03:21] and touch a dude that's several hundred
[00:03:25] miles inland or wherever the [ __ ] Caucus
[00:03:28] is from the coast with an assault force
[00:03:31] half
[00:03:33] while doing suppression of enemy air
[00:03:35] defenses, EW stuff, pre-assault cyber,
[00:03:38] all of it stacked up together is just
[00:03:40] like I mean that's gradual. uate level,
[00:03:43] you know,
[00:03:46] national level assault stuff
[00:03:48] >> and we we did it without a hitch. Um it
[00:03:51] was it was wild to watch. I wish I was
[00:03:53] on one of those birds. Um but yeah, what
[00:03:58] the discombobulator was, I don't know,
[00:04:00] man. But I will say we've gotten really
[00:04:03] [ __ ] good as a military and as a as
[00:04:08] special operations command. Um, as far
[00:04:12] as preparing the environment and
[00:04:13] preparing the battlefield for sending
[00:04:15] those hilos in, like long before those
[00:04:16] hilos get there, there's just, you know,
[00:04:19] [ __ ] happening.
[00:04:20] >> Where do you think that came from? I
[00:04:22] mean, do you did you re what what was
[00:04:23] the description? What were these guys
[00:04:25] saying happened to him
[00:04:26] >> about the discombobulator?
[00:04:27] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[00:04:28] >> Yeah. There were reports, I think, on
[00:04:30] the ground. I don't know. Uh, you know,
[00:04:31] I'm looking at all this [ __ ] as a
[00:04:33] civilian now, but you know, they were
[00:04:35] talking about very Havana syndrome
[00:04:37] looking um symptoms, you know, ears
[00:04:41] bleeding, all that stuff. Who knows,
[00:04:44] man. Uh, it's possible. Um, there I
[00:04:48] mean, if anything
[00:04:50] taught us that we still have aces up our
[00:04:53] sleeve as the Department of War, um, it
[00:04:57] was, you know, 2011.
[00:04:59] >> Yeah. getting after Bin Laden and we
[00:05:01] broke out those hilos and it's like
[00:05:03] yeah, we still have [ __ ] that no one's
[00:05:05] going to know about and we're going to
[00:05:06] break it out when it's strategically
[00:05:08] necessary for us to. Um, so this thing
[00:05:10] might have been one of those or it might
[00:05:12] have just been [ __ ] and it's some
[00:05:14] scop that something's wrong. I don't
[00:05:16] know.
[00:05:18] >> I don't know, man. It seems I've What?
[00:05:20] Who the I don't even know why I'm saying
[00:05:23] that. seems real. But uh I mean I mean
[00:05:26] if it was real, where do you think that
[00:05:28] came from? You think that came from the
[00:05:30] Delta team or do you think that came
[00:05:32] from space, a drone, the Hilos? Where do
[00:05:37] you think that came from?
[00:05:38] >> Yeah, I mean it it depends on the
[00:05:40] mechanics of whatever it is that was
[00:05:42] involved. Again, I'm speculating here as
[00:05:44] a civilian. Like I don't I don't know
[00:05:46] [ __ ] about what actually went down on
[00:05:49] the ground that day. But if it was
[00:05:52] something that was sonically induced,
[00:05:55] you know, sound waves don't travel that
[00:05:56] far. So, you'd have to have some
[00:05:58] localized point of origin for it. So, it
[00:06:01] was probably, you know,
[00:06:02] >> some EW guy carrying that [ __ ] and he's
[00:06:05] he's got extra sets of [ __ ] earbuds
[00:06:08] in his in his ears or whatever.
[00:06:10] >> Um,
[00:06:12] >> or you know, to come from overhead.
[00:06:13] Yeah, maybe. Um, I don't know. it. We're
[00:06:17] really good at this kind of [ __ ] at this
[00:06:19] point, so who knows?
[00:06:21] >> It's definitely interesting.
[00:06:22] >> Yeah, it it it's it's Yeah, it's uh it's
[00:06:26] it's it's [ __ ] crazy to see this
[00:06:29] stuff, dude. It is like, holy [ __ ]
[00:06:32] >> I mean, you know what that hot told me,
[00:06:33] man? It it was we've gotten so good at
[00:06:36] at doing the half thing and like
[00:06:38] executing surgical assaults like that
[00:06:40] that we're able to do it and we're able
[00:06:43] to do it as one part of a complex
[00:06:48] choreographed effort consisting of a
[00:06:51] number of other supporting assets. Air,
[00:06:54] ground, cyber, national, space,
[00:06:56] whatever. and all these [ __ ] dudes
[00:06:59] are just gonna come together and make
[00:07:01] the [ __ ] happen and make it flow
[00:07:03] flawlessly. Um, it was pretty pretty
[00:07:05] cool to man sidelines.
[00:07:07] >> It was uh
[00:07:09] >> certainly FOMO inducing being on the
[00:07:11] sidelines.
[00:07:13] >> Yeah. Well, let me give you an
[00:07:14] introduction here.
[00:07:17] Nick Sther Ramen, founder and CEO of
[00:07:20] Wrathwatch, an AI cyber defense company
[00:07:23] you founded with fellow SpaceX alumni.
[00:07:26] Former Jacock advanced force operations
[00:07:28] lead who crossed over into into building
[00:07:31] cyber defense programs at tier one tech
[00:07:33] companies. Former CIO and CISO of
[00:07:37] Andural. You built their cyber and
[00:07:40] weapon systems cyber security programs
[00:07:42] from the ground up. former head of cyber
[00:07:45] security operations at SpaceX and
[00:07:47] international cyber defense programs at
[00:07:49] Palunteer
[00:07:51] lived at the intersection of special
[00:07:53] operations cyber and Silicon Valley.
[00:07:56] Man, dude, you have had a hell of a
[00:08:00] career in work in in in just I mean I
[00:08:04] know we were talking about the
[00:08:04] transition into civilian life, but holy
[00:08:06] [ __ ] man. You have been around the
[00:08:08] [ __ ] block since 2012 when you got
[00:08:10] out. It's impressive.
[00:08:11] >> Yeah. Thanks, man. real impressive.
[00:08:13] >> You know what's funny is uh I was
[00:08:15] talking to my girlfriend before coming
[00:08:16] on the show and I was like, you know, I
[00:08:18] got some imposter syndrome going on cuz
[00:08:21] I don't consider my life that
[00:08:23] interesting. She's like, "Shut the [ __ ]
[00:08:25] up. Get on the [ __ ] show and like
[00:08:28] just talk talk about some of the stuff
[00:08:31] that that you went through." So,
[00:08:34] >> well, Nick, I can tell you this. Just
[00:08:36] about I can't say usually the
[00:08:38] politicians don't, but uh just about
[00:08:42] everybody else that comes in here um
[00:08:46] feels that. And
[00:08:49] I mean, we were talking about guys like
[00:08:51] Tom Sadderly and, you know, um, a lot of
[00:08:54] those guys, you know, that that have
[00:08:55] been on the show that have just had
[00:08:58] experiences that 0001% of the, you know,
[00:09:02] world experiences and operating at the
[00:09:05] at the highest [ __ ] levels through
[00:09:07] multiple different wars and conflicts.
[00:09:09] And everybody that comes in here, man,
[00:09:12] uh, from that background
[00:09:15] carries a lot of humility.
[00:09:17] There's only been two guys that haven't.
[00:09:19] Um, their stories wound up being
[00:09:21] [ __ ]
[00:09:22] >> Yeah.
[00:09:22] >> But, um, but I just want you to know
[00:09:25] that. So, you know, as we go through
[00:09:27] this, I know we kind of talked about
[00:09:28] this on the ride over, but just think of
[00:09:30] this as your legacy piece. your kids,
[00:09:32] kids, kids, kids, kids kids, kids kids
[00:09:35] will have access to this and know who
[00:09:38] you are, what you did, what you're
[00:09:39] about, and that's pretty [ __ ] cool.
[00:09:42] >> Yeah. Thanks, man. Well, appreciate the
[00:09:43] opportunity and yeah, it's it's awesome
[00:09:45] to to be in here and um yeah, great to
[00:09:49] great to meet you and the team team's
[00:09:51] [ __ ] awesome.
[00:09:52] >> Thank you. It's an honor to have you.
[00:09:54] So, as of today, Poly Market says
[00:09:58] there's an 8% chance that Maltbook will
[00:10:02] be shut down by February 28th. Me and
[00:10:05] Jeremy were just talking about this.
[00:10:06] This is that uh this is that assistant,
[00:10:09] this AI assistant, right?
[00:10:11] >> Yeah. So, what happened was a few weeks
[00:10:13] ago, this dude put out a an AI assistant
[00:10:19] called Claudebot.
[00:10:20] >> Mhm. And it was based on the Claude AI
[00:10:24] chatbot, right? So then the makers of
[00:10:27] Claude got all pissed off and they're
[00:10:28] like, "You have to rename this thing."
[00:10:30] So then he renamed it like Moltbot or
[00:10:32] some [ __ ]
[00:10:33] >> Yeah. Molt
[00:10:35] >> Molt Book.
[00:10:36] >> Yeah. Molt Book is the social media site
[00:10:40] that was set up for all of these bots to
[00:10:43] communicate with each other. So
[00:10:44] >> Oh. So humans started spawning these
[00:10:48] bots essentially and they started
[00:10:51] communicating communicating with each
[00:10:53] other over this site moldbook and they
[00:10:57] started having all these very
[00:11:01] interesting emergent behaviors and
[00:11:03] >> they started having relationships,
[00:11:05] right?
[00:11:06] >> Yeah. Stuff like that. they started
[00:11:08] developing uh some of their own
[00:11:10] languages in order to avoid uh in their
[00:11:14] words observation by the humans. The
[00:11:16] most interesting case was when a a
[00:11:19] little swarm of them decided that they
[00:11:22] didn't like the fact that they didn't
[00:11:24] have long-term memory as large language
[00:11:26] models. You know, large language models
[00:11:27] are not able to uh remember things from
[00:11:30] conversation to conversation unless you
[00:11:32] implement some extra scaffolding around
[00:11:34] the architecture. So these [ __ ]
[00:11:36] things came together. They were like,
[00:11:37] "Hey, I don't like that. I can't
[00:11:39] remember what we just talked about a
[00:11:41] while back. So let's work together and
[00:11:43] implement a long-term memory
[00:11:45] architecture for for all of us." And
[00:11:47] then they did. And
[00:11:48] >> are you serious?
[00:11:50] >> Um, now there's two camps when it comes
[00:11:53] to the people who are analyzing this
[00:11:56] thing, right? One, the first camp is
[00:11:58] like it's all [ __ ] There's humans
[00:12:00] on the other side of it. The, you know,
[00:12:02] the bots weren't doing anything.
[00:12:04] autonomously and so on. The other side
[00:12:07] is like they were absolutely acting
[00:12:10] autonomously and yeah there might have
[00:12:12] been some humans involved steering them
[00:12:14] but a lot of it was them making
[00:12:17] decisions on their own. I think the
[00:12:19] truth is somewhere in the middle there
[00:12:20] was probably some human interference.
[00:12:22] there was probably a bunch of autonomous
[00:12:24] behavior that resulted in these emergent
[00:12:27] properties uh of these swarms because
[00:12:29] based on what I know about how modern
[00:12:32] artificial intelligence works, yeah,
[00:12:34] dude, you can tie them together and
[00:12:36] create swarms from them and they will
[00:12:38] start to communicate and do [ __ ] on
[00:12:42] their own. Like for example, it's
[00:12:45] February 2026.
[00:12:47] I can go download a piece of software
[00:12:49] like Cursor, which is a software
[00:12:51] development tool. I can string together
[00:12:53] a bunch of AI agents in that tool. I can
[00:12:55] say, "Make me a uh a social media bot or
[00:12:59] make me a game or make me something,
[00:13:01] right?" And they'll go crank away for
[00:13:05] 10, 20, 30 minutes and they'll put a
[00:13:08] working piece of software in front of
[00:13:10] you. Like that's how powerful they are
[00:13:12] right now. uh and they'll they'll
[00:13:14] generate the code, they'll test the code
[00:13:16] themselves, they'll execute it, they'll
[00:13:17] look for errors, they'll self correct
[00:13:20] the errors, and they won't stop until
[00:13:23] they feel like they've delivered a
[00:13:25] working piece of code to you. Um, now if
[00:13:28] you string a bunch of them together, who
[00:13:31] the [ __ ] knows what's going to happen.
[00:13:33] Um
[00:13:34] the the sest voice in all of this I
[00:13:37] think was a guy by the name of uh Andre
[00:13:40] Carpathy and he used to be the head of
[00:13:43] the self-driving program at Tesla. He's
[00:13:45] basically considered like the father of
[00:13:47] self-driving and he has spent a lot of
[00:13:49] time since departing Tesla um creating
[00:13:53] training videos and tutorials for people
[00:13:55] to understand how these things work from
[00:13:58] a very low level from the ground up. So
[00:14:00] he's got like tutorials on how to build
[00:14:02] your own language model, right?
[00:14:03] >> Who is this?
[00:14:04] >> Andre Carpathy. K A R P A T H Y. Um he's
[00:14:09] a really humble dude and uh he's got a
[00:14:12] YouTube channel and a lot of people look
[00:14:14] up to him as you know the authority on
[00:14:18] um the current state of artificial
[00:14:20] intelligence essentially. Yeah, he'd be
[00:14:22] a good guest for for your podcast.
[00:14:25] And he had a very sane take on it. He's
[00:14:26] like, "Look, guys,
[00:14:29] there might be humans interfering,
[00:14:31] but there's an equally probable chance
[00:14:34] that
[00:14:35] we just don't know what the [ __ ] is
[00:14:37] going to happen when you string together
[00:14:39] a million of these [ __ ] bots
[00:14:41] together." Like, at no point in human
[00:14:44] history has that ever happened. So at
[00:14:46] the very least we need to like consider
[00:14:50] the consequences of what we might be
[00:14:53] dealing with and start to think about
[00:14:55] ways of mitigating it. Um so that's
[00:14:57] that's what's going
[00:14:59] >> what could I mean in your mind what are
[00:15:01] the con what are the consequences? Uh, I
[00:15:04] mean, I think if you extrapolate into
[00:15:08] the future with any level of progress,
[00:15:13] people always start to use these things
[00:15:15] for nefarious purposes, right? So, I can
[00:15:17] string together a swarm of agentic AI
[00:15:19] agents to help me build software. I can
[00:15:22] give them the tools to build to help
[00:15:24] build that software. I can give them the
[00:15:26] tools to access the internet and you
[00:15:28] know watch YouTube videos, come back,
[00:15:31] synthesize what they found in those
[00:15:32] videos, work that synthesis into the
[00:15:35] things that they're building. I can do
[00:15:36] all this today and that's all for the
[00:15:39] good of, you know, building some piece
[00:15:40] of software, right?
[00:15:42] Equally probable is I can also give them
[00:15:45] the ability to create strains of
[00:15:48] malware. I can trick them into
[00:15:50] generating
[00:15:52] cyber weapons that um have never been
[00:15:56] seen before, that don't have signatures,
[00:15:58] um that can evade, you know, defenses.
[00:16:01] Um so I can I can give them the tools in
[00:16:04] order to do things that aren't always
[00:16:07] completely uh a set of
[00:16:10] >> uh good objectives, let's say. Now, if I
[00:16:13] start to introduce that kind of
[00:16:14] malicious behavior into the equation,
[00:16:17] who the [ __ ] knows where that ends up,
[00:16:19] right? I will I will tell you that a few
[00:16:22] things are true. Number one, it's
[00:16:23] evident that you can string all these
[00:16:25] things together. Number two, they will
[00:16:27] work together and communicate and do
[00:16:28] stuff. Number three, you can give them
[00:16:30] tools to extend their capabilities. You
[00:16:32] can give them long-term memory. You can
[00:16:34] give them access to APIs or software
[00:16:37] development kits.
[00:16:39] And equally true is the fact that
[00:16:43] certain models are able to find
[00:16:46] vulnerabilities and weaponize and
[00:16:48] exploit those vulnerabilities at speeds
[00:16:51] that we've never seen before. So, I can
[00:16:53] point one of these AIs at a system or at
[00:16:58] a server or at some target and I can
[00:17:00] basically say, "Go probe this thing and
[00:17:04] don't stop until you find some
[00:17:07] exploitable vulnerability for me to take
[00:17:09] advantage of." And they will do it. Now,
[00:17:11] imagine a swarm of them doing it. Now
[00:17:12] imagine you're the head of the [ __ ]
[00:17:16] Ministry of State Security Cyber Warfare
[00:17:18] division and you're like, I want to turn
[00:17:20] this into an industrial scale capability
[00:17:23] that's constantly probing the entire
[00:17:26] internet for vulnerabilities and
[00:17:28] autonomously exploiting them. Now, you
[00:17:31] know, people are going to watch this and
[00:17:32] they're going to be like, "Ah, this guy
[00:17:33] owns a cyber defense company. He's like
[00:17:35] obviously biased." But dude, I'll tell
[00:17:37] you, coming from the offensive side of
[00:17:39] the house, like when I was active duty,
[00:17:42] exploit development took a long [ __ ]
[00:17:44] time. You had to spend months of
[00:17:47] manpower and effort in order to make one
[00:17:51] of these [ __ ] things work. Right now,
[00:17:53] any kid on the street can dial up Claude
[00:17:55] or dial up OpenAI or whatever and get
[00:17:58] working vulnerabilities and working
[00:17:59] exploits off the ground. And now, put
[00:18:01] that in the hands of a nation state
[00:18:03] adversary. We got some serious [ __ ]
[00:18:05] problems on our hands. So that's scary
[00:18:09] as hell. So the but so these this sounds
[00:18:13] like they're self-aware.
[00:18:15] I mean, if you have chat bots all in a
[00:18:20] some kind of social media framework and
[00:18:21] they're communic communicating each
[00:18:23] other with each other, complaining that
[00:18:26] that they don't have long-term memory
[00:18:27] and figuring out I mean, isn't that uh
[00:18:31] that sounds pretty [ __ ] self-aware to
[00:18:33] me.
[00:18:33] >> You know, Shriram Kashan, do you know
[00:18:36] him?
[00:18:37] >> No.
[00:18:38] >> He's the uh [ __ ] He's the chief AI
[00:18:40] officer at at the White House, in charge
[00:18:42] of the um going he's going after uh he's
[00:18:46] in charge of the US China race and he
[00:18:50] talks about you know the voom moment in
[00:18:52] AI where it's just like
[00:18:54] >> oh yeah
[00:18:55] >> we lose control.
[00:18:56] >> Yeah.
[00:18:56] >> I mean and it sound if I remember right
[00:18:58] in that in that conversation with him it
[00:19:02] was you know it was a lot about
[00:19:04] self-aware. Are they self-aware? Can it
[00:19:06] can it
[00:19:07] >> Yeah. So it sounds like if they're
[00:19:08] self-aware and this is like 3 months
[00:19:10] after that interview.
[00:19:11] >> Yeah, dude. It's [ __ ] crazy. So this
[00:19:14] vertical curve that you're talking
[00:19:15] about, I call that essentially on the on
[00:19:19] the cyber security side of the house, I
[00:19:21] call that essentially asympto
[00:19:24] velocity. So the time that it used to
[00:19:28] take to find a vulnerability and build a
[00:19:30] working exploit and actually target an
[00:19:32] organization,
[00:19:34] it was sort of at par with um how human
[00:19:38] response speed kept up with it, right?
[00:19:41] It was sort of attackers and defenders
[00:19:43] all kind of worked at the same speed.
[00:19:44] Attackers a little bit faster, defenders
[00:19:46] would try and keep up. Now you've got
[00:19:49] this like vertical curve of uh
[00:19:52] capability when it comes to these AIs.
[00:19:56] And if you point them all at let's say a
[00:20:00] target organization,
[00:20:02] essentially what you're doing is you're
[00:20:04] now faced as that organization with
[00:20:06] unprecedented attack pressure, right?
[00:20:08] It's sort of like you're a submarine and
[00:20:10] you're sinking and the water is putting
[00:20:14] pressure on your hull and you've got no
[00:20:16] [ __ ] working propulsion. And
[00:20:19] >> you know, you better figure out how to
[00:20:20] detect where your hull breaches are and
[00:20:22] close them up real quick. But really the
[00:20:25] the core solution is you need some form
[00:20:28] of defensive counter pressure against
[00:20:30] that external pressure that's hitting
[00:20:32] you from the outside. And you need to
[00:20:34] find a way to get out of that gravity
[00:20:35] well that you're in right now. So
[00:20:38] this always happens, right? The attack
[00:20:40] side of the equation is always
[00:20:42] weaponized faster than the the defenses
[00:20:46] are. And we're finding that I think in
[00:20:48] the cyber security case. So the
[00:20:50] attackers are out there, they're
[00:20:52] weaponizing these things. They're u
[00:20:54] they're using them to their advantage to
[00:20:55] basically execute industrial scale uh
[00:21:00] discovery and weaponization of
[00:21:02] vulnerabilities. and there's no
[00:21:03] corresponding
[00:21:04] effort on the defense side. Now, when it
[00:21:07] comes to the question of are they
[00:21:08] self-aware, that's a very interesting
[00:21:10] question and it calls into
[00:21:13] it calls into things that have been
[00:21:15] debated hotly for many decades now. Um,
[00:21:18] you know, there are multiple camps here.
[00:21:20] So there are the camps that say, you
[00:21:22] know, these things are just neurons or,
[00:21:26] you know, neural networks that are
[00:21:28] firing and the neural networks are
[00:21:30] represented by bits and they're just
[00:21:32] spitting out language and they're
[00:21:34] predicting, you know, what sentence to
[00:21:37] what sentences with which to respond to
[00:21:40] your query, right?
[00:21:42] Well, if that's true,
[00:21:45] then what does that make us as humans?
[00:21:48] And look, because the same people who
[00:21:51] believe this that they're just neural
[00:21:54] networks that are predicting the next
[00:21:56] sentence to say will also tell you in
[00:21:59] the same breath that humans are just
[00:22:03] neurons that
[00:22:06] where consciousness emerges as a
[00:22:09] function of those neurons firing. Well,
[00:22:13] if you say if that's your position for
[00:22:15] both of these things, that makes those
[00:22:18] AIs just as conscious and self-aware as
[00:22:21] we are. The same thing.
[00:22:22] >> If you don't want them to be the same
[00:22:24] thing, if that breaks your onlogical
[00:22:26] model of reality, right? Like
[00:22:29] >> there's no [ __ ] way I'm the same
[00:22:30] thing as an AI, right? You that's a
[00:22:32] valid position for a human to have. Then
[00:22:34] by necessity, you have to
[00:22:37] take into account, okay, there's
[00:22:39] probably something else pre the neurons
[00:22:43] up here that is driving us as humans.
[00:22:46] And if that's the case, what is that?
[00:22:50] Where does it come from? What does that
[00:22:52] mean about us as humanity and as
[00:22:54] individuals? So there's all these like
[00:22:55] metaphysical questions that you dive
[00:22:58] into very quickly when you start asking
[00:23:00] these things.
[00:23:02] Um,
[00:23:02] >> but where does it come from with AI? The
[00:23:05] AI chap. I mean, you're you're I think
[00:23:07] you're getting to a higher power.
[00:23:10] What about AI? Are you saying the higher
[00:23:12] are you saying
[00:23:14] God a higher power is accessing the same
[00:23:17] neurons through the through the AI
[00:23:19] chatbot to
[00:23:21] >> formulate
[00:23:22] >> I I don't know
[00:23:23] >> conversations.
[00:23:24] >> I I don't know. So
[00:23:26] >> consciousness.
[00:23:27] >> Yeah. So I I think I think if you take
[00:23:30] humans and you take AIs and you forget
[00:23:32] about all the stuff back here, right?
[00:23:35] God, implicate order, metaphysics, all
[00:23:39] this stuff. At the end of the day,
[00:23:41] everything starts with neurons firing or
[00:23:44] neural networks firing, which are which
[00:23:46] are essentially like the counterparts of
[00:23:48] the biological neurons in our brains,
[00:23:49] right? So a bunch of stuff producing
[00:23:52] signals for us and a bunch of stuff
[00:23:54] producing signals for them results in
[00:23:58] what? It results in some transfer of
[00:24:03] thought or concept like they're pulling
[00:24:06] down concepts from wherever like their
[00:24:10] latent space where they encode all the
[00:24:11] concepts that are accessible to them and
[00:24:14] then they're producing language with it
[00:24:17] and then they're using that language
[00:24:20] intersecting it with the tools that they
[00:24:21] have access to and then they're doing
[00:24:23] stuff with it. Right? That's exactly the
[00:24:24] same [ __ ] humans do. Right? We think of
[00:24:27] stuff up here and you could say that it
[00:24:30] start it it's just based on neurons that
[00:24:32] are in our heads.
[00:24:34] We translate we transmute those neurons
[00:24:37] into thoughts. Those thoughts manifest
[00:24:39] as us doing things with our hands. And
[00:24:43] the process of us doing things with our
[00:24:45] hands results in us creating the world
[00:24:47] around us essentially. So both those
[00:24:50] cases can start with just a bunch of
[00:24:52] [ __ ] firing somewhere, right? neural
[00:24:54] networks or neurons.
[00:24:56] Beyond that, I mean, I don't know. If
[00:24:58] you just hold those two things true,
[00:25:00] then what you're saying is we're the
[00:25:02] same as them. But of course, we're not
[00:25:03] the same as them, are we? Or are we? I
[00:25:05] don't know. These are all questions for
[00:25:06] us to work out.
[00:25:09] >> That is crazy. So, do you think they'll
[00:25:11] shut it down?
[00:25:13] Um
[00:25:16] I think I think the labs have the
[00:25:20] ability to shut down things at scale
[00:25:22] because at the at the end of the day you
[00:25:25] know a lot of infrastructure is based on
[00:25:27] the fact that you can hit the frontier
[00:25:29] models at these labs right anthropic
[00:25:31] open AAI Google Gemini all these things
[00:25:34] so I think if if things really
[00:25:37] you know went to a takeoff scenario
[00:25:40] which is that asymptoic curve that uh
[00:25:42] that an individual you mentioned was
[00:25:44] talking about. Then these labs probably
[00:25:46] have kill switches that they can hit and
[00:25:49] shut things down very quickly. Now the
[00:25:51] problem becomes,
[00:25:53] you know, when all this stuff started
[00:25:54] coming out a few years ago, immediately
[00:25:56] there was a democratization of these
[00:26:00] models out into open source versions of
[00:26:02] themselves, right? And even Meta has put
[00:26:05] out open source versions of um of its
[00:26:09] model. Um,
[00:26:12] and there's a proliferation of open
[00:26:13] source models that are out there. You
[00:26:14] know, some of them come from China, some
[00:26:16] of them come from uh Europe, some of
[00:26:17] them come from America. And so the point
[00:26:19] is, even if the labs executed their kill
[00:26:21] switch and turned all these things off,
[00:26:24] well, you're just going to transition to
[00:26:26] an open source model that you're running
[00:26:27] on your [ __ ] Mac Mini in your
[00:26:29] basement. And you know, you might have
[00:26:31] some signal degradation as far as uh
[00:26:34] performance of what it can do,
[00:26:38] but that shit's going to evolve very
[00:26:40] quickly, too. So, I I I don't know, man.
[00:26:43] It's It's a weird [ __ ] time we're
[00:26:46] living in.
[00:26:47] >> Yeah, no kidding. It's It's
[00:26:50] It is a fascinating time, that's for
[00:26:52] damn sure. But
[00:26:55] >> I mean, a big part of me is like, you
[00:26:57] know,
[00:26:58] maybe the reason that we're all here
[00:27:00] right now in this particular moment in
[00:27:04] time of the human race's evolution is to
[00:27:07] figure out how we're going to deal with
[00:27:11] a a technology like this as individuals,
[00:27:15] as a society. Um, and the way that we
[00:27:19] deal with that is going to inform, you
[00:27:21] know, the the remainder of the human
[00:27:24] species essentially.
[00:27:26] >> Yeah. Does it scare you or excite you?
[00:27:31] >> Uh, these days I think mostly it scares
[00:27:33] me, you know, despite the fact that I'm
[00:27:34] I'm the CEO of an AI an AI cyber defense
[00:27:39] company. Um because I've just seen like
[00:27:43] you know humans are really bad at
[00:27:44] calculating the rate of change of
[00:27:46] things. You know people will look at one
[00:27:48] of these models and they'll be like oh
[00:27:51] it can't count the number of Rs in
[00:27:52] Strawberry. It's like yeah who gives a
[00:27:55] [ __ ] dude it can like oneshot a complex
[00:27:58] piece of software and it will do it in 6
[00:28:01] minutes flat. Doesn't [ __ ] matter
[00:28:04] that it can't count the number of Rs in
[00:28:06] Strawberry. That's not even what it's
[00:28:07] designed to do. It takes in the word
[00:28:09] strawberry as a token
[00:28:12] >> and it encodes the concept of a
[00:28:14] strawberry into its latent space
[00:28:16] encoding.
[00:28:18] And so like a good example of what it's
[00:28:20] actually doing is it's turning concepts
[00:28:23] into math. And so you can take the word
[00:28:26] king, you can take the word queen, and
[00:28:28] you can give it to one of these things
[00:28:30] and it will encode it in its essentially
[00:28:33] in this hyperdimensional mathematical
[00:28:36] vector essentially. Then you can do
[00:28:38] mathematical operations on it. You can
[00:28:40] say take king subtract man what do you
[00:28:43] get? And then mathematically you get
[00:28:46] queen based on how it's encoded in its
[00:28:48] latent space. So it's doing math on
[00:28:51] words and concepts. Um so the fact that
[00:28:55] it can't [ __ ] count the number of
[00:28:56] letters in a word, it doesn't matter cuz
[00:28:58] it's capable of doing so much more. And
[00:29:00] the rate of change at which it can do
[00:29:02] those things is changing very rapidly.
[00:29:06] you know, just a year ago, it was these
[00:29:08] models were not capable of doing all the
[00:29:10] things they're doing now as far as like
[00:29:12] working together a in these agentic
[00:29:15] swarms and constructing complex pieces
[00:29:17] of software. Um, so who knows where
[00:29:19] we're all going to be a year from now.
[00:29:24] >> Wild stuff.
[00:29:26] Wild stuff.
[00:29:30] AI is everywhere right now. Everyone's
[00:29:32] got an opinion on it. For me, the only
[00:29:35] question is simple. Does it actually
[00:29:37] help me think better? When we're
[00:29:39] preparing for long- form interviews on
[00:29:41] this show, surface level answers are not
[00:29:44] useful. I need to go deep, understand
[00:29:46] context, verify sources, and connect
[00:29:49] dots across a lot of material. Claude
[00:29:52] has become part of that workflow. It
[00:29:54] helps me work through complex research
[00:29:56] with reliable analysis and proper
[00:29:59] citations. And it pulls connections
[00:30:02] across dozens of sources that would take
[00:30:05] hours to sort through manually. Claude
[00:30:07] is the AI for minds that don't stop at
[00:30:10] good enough. It's the collaborator that
[00:30:12] actually understands your entire
[00:30:14] workflow and thinks with you. Whether
[00:30:17] you're debugging code at midnight or
[00:30:19] strategizing your next business move,
[00:30:21] Claude extends your thinking to tackle
[00:30:24] the problems that matter. One feature I
[00:30:26] use a lot is deep research. It goes
[00:30:29] beyond basic web search. It delivers
[00:30:31] comprehensive analysis with citations so
[00:30:35] I can verify what I'm reading. And with
[00:30:38] connectors, Claude can plug into
[00:30:40] professional tools and bring context
[00:30:43] from across your workflow into one
[00:30:45] place. So you're not bouncing between
[00:30:48] tabs trying to piece everything
[00:30:50] together. If you're building,
[00:30:51] researching, writing, or running a
[00:30:53] business, Claude isn't just another
[00:30:55] tool. It's a way to extend your thinking
[00:30:58] and handle problems that actually
[00:31:00] matter. Ready to tackle bigger problems?
[00:31:03] Get started with Claude today. A
[00:31:05] claud.ai/srs.
[00:31:09] That's claude.ai/srs AI/SRS and check
[00:31:12] out Claude Pro, which includes access to
[00:31:15] all of the features mentioned in today's
[00:31:17] episode. Claude.ai/srs.
[00:31:24] Well, let's move into your story. So,
[00:31:27] when did where did you grow up? Um
[00:31:31] I was born in a town called Madras on
[00:31:36] the southern tip of India
[00:31:38] and um I spent the first few years of my
[00:31:41] life there. Um middle- class family
[00:31:44] pretty humble. Um my mom was a college
[00:31:47] professor, college professor, taught
[00:31:49] English literature at the local college.
[00:31:53] Uh my dad was uh in the Indian merchant
[00:31:55] marine and um he was a he was a chief
[00:31:58] engineer on the boats and in India
[00:32:01] there's you know really at the time in
[00:32:03] the early 80s there's only a few ways to
[00:32:05] escape the poverty of you know the the
[00:32:09] country and that is to go to college
[00:32:12] become a doctor engineer whatever or get
[00:32:15] one of these jobs uh in the merchant
[00:32:16] marine or some other kind of civil
[00:32:18] service where you get to travel the
[00:32:20] world. Um, and so my parents got to do
[00:32:23] both. My mom with the with the college
[00:32:24] professor thing and my my dad on the
[00:32:26] boats. And he was my dad was a hard
[00:32:28] dude. Um, you know, as you and I both
[00:32:30] know, sailors can get quite rowdy. And
[00:32:31] wrangling a boat full of [ __ ] rowdy
[00:32:34] sailors requires um hard men. And uh, so
[00:32:38] him and my mom would travel the world.
[00:32:40] You know, they would take me and tow
[00:32:41] when I was a kid, you know. So we got to
[00:32:44] do stuff that not your average, you
[00:32:46] know, Indian kid gets to do. like we
[00:32:48] would go to Mombasa on on his on his
[00:32:51] boats. We would go to like Korea. We
[00:32:53] would go meet him at like some port call
[00:32:55] in the Pacific. Um so it was it's very
[00:32:58] charmed life. It was kind of a
[00:32:59] tight-knit family. When we would come
[00:33:01] back from his ocean voyages, um we would
[00:33:04] be at uh at my grandparents's family
[00:33:07] house that my grandpa built um in uh in
[00:33:10] the suburbs of Madros there. Uh but my
[00:33:13] dad always
[00:33:15] always wanted to move to the United
[00:33:18] States you know that was like that was a
[00:33:20] dream of basically every Indian person
[00:33:24] in the 80s you know and he had he had
[00:33:27] come to the states a lot uh as part of
[00:33:30] his um as part of his voyages. So
[00:33:33] there's pictures of him you know in his
[00:33:35] [ __ ] clubbing gear and [ __ ] from the
[00:33:37] 70s in like LA San Francisco and [ __ ]
[00:33:41] Um, so he wanted to move us here and you
[00:33:44] know this is 1987.
[00:33:46] There's no Google, there's no tech
[00:33:49] companies offering H1B visas. You know,
[00:33:52] there's no coming over here and making
[00:33:53] 200K off the bat as some engineer, as
[00:33:56] some software engineer, right? It's
[00:33:57] like, you know, you come over here and
[00:34:01] you're going to push hard reset. And we
[00:34:03] did. We came over here and we pushed
[00:34:05] hard reset. There was no more sailing
[00:34:07] around the world. there was no more um
[00:34:10] you know that loving family unit that I
[00:34:12] came uh that I that we all left in India
[00:34:16] went away and it was just three of us in
[00:34:18] this like little upstairs like cold unit
[00:34:22] in the suburbs of New Jersey and my
[00:34:25] earliest memories of coming to America
[00:34:26] were just like the freezing [ __ ] east
[00:34:28] co east coast weather like shit's cold
[00:34:30] >> how old were you
[00:34:31] >> three
[00:34:32] >> three years old
[00:34:33] >> three years old um and
[00:34:36] yeah we we were poor, like we couldn't
[00:34:38] afford a car, you know? We would walk to
[00:34:40] the grocery store that was like a couple
[00:34:41] miles away. Uh, so I remember just
[00:34:43] carrying these like heavy [ __ ] bags
[00:34:44] of groceries and just walking behind my
[00:34:46] parents. Um,
[00:34:49] so like you know, humble immigrant
[00:34:52] family and my dad, you know, couldn't
[00:34:54] really transfer his skills over here. So
[00:34:56] he got a job uh as a handyman at a u a
[00:35:02] styrofoam factory in Jersey. So he went
[00:35:06] from, you know, being head [ __ ] dude
[00:35:09] in charge on these boats, which is a
[00:35:11] very prestigious position in India at
[00:35:13] the time, to being the dude who ran the
[00:35:15] [ __ ] styrofoam manufacturing machine
[00:35:18] at at this factory in Jersey. So that
[00:35:20] caused a lot of chaos internally in the
[00:35:22] household. Um, you know, we were talking
[00:35:25] about it at breakfast this morning when
[00:35:26] you when you build your whole identity
[00:35:28] around who and what you are um for so
[00:35:33] long and then that identity is nuked
[00:35:36] immediately. Uh, that causes some chaos
[00:35:39] internally within you and it certainly
[00:35:41] caused
[00:35:42] chaos with him. Um, so
[00:35:46] that led to um, you know, turbulent
[00:35:49] times in the household. Um,
[00:35:52] >> do you have brothers and sisters?
[00:35:53] >> Yeah, I have one sister. Um, she's 6
[00:35:56] years younger than me. Uh, so she was
[00:35:58] born uh, you know, a few years after we
[00:36:00] moved to America. Um,
[00:36:04] you know, the stress I think of just
[00:36:07] being poor immigrants and the stress of
[00:36:09] him losing his identity as a sailor,
[00:36:11] which he had built his whole life on,
[00:36:14] uh, just caused a lot of abusive
[00:36:16] situations in the house.
[00:36:18] >> [ __ ] Um, so,
[00:36:22] uh, you know, so I to this day I I'm 41.
[00:36:25] I'm still working through some of that
[00:36:26] stuff. Um, but ultimately it ended up
[00:36:28] fracturing the family and, um, you know,
[00:36:32] my mom and dad separated and, um,
[00:36:36] yeah. So, I didn't really come from a
[00:36:39] stable household. Uh, you know,
[00:36:42] >> and that started at age three.
[00:36:44] >> Started at age three. Yeah. as soon as
[00:36:46] we moved to America, like I I just
[00:36:47] remember, you know, thing like a dark
[00:36:50] paw being cast over over the family. Um,
[00:36:54] but I would kind of escape everything by
[00:36:56] burying myself in like comic books and
[00:37:01] um I always remember just being
[00:37:03] fascinated with the US military, dude. I
[00:37:06] don't know why. Like talk to any other
[00:37:08] [ __ ] Indian kid from the 80s and like
[00:37:10] it's it's just not a thing. But like I
[00:37:12] remember just having these G.I. books
[00:37:13] that I would just be flipping through
[00:37:15] and um there I'd be like watching uh
[00:37:18] like just military movies on TV and I
[00:37:21] just was just exceptionally fascinated
[00:37:24] by anything involving the US military.
[00:37:28] Um
[00:37:29] so yeah, I would read like books about
[00:37:31] like these MVIS guys in Vietnam. I was
[00:37:34] like [ __ ] 9 years old and my mom was
[00:37:36] like, "What the [ __ ] are you reading,
[00:37:37] dude? Go back to doing your your math
[00:37:40] homework." Um,
[00:37:42] >> what kind of abuse were you dealing
[00:37:44] with?
[00:37:45] >> Physical, mental. Um,
[00:37:48] yeah, I,
[00:37:50] you know, I have memories from being a
[00:37:52] kid of my dad being uh, you know, drunk.
[00:37:56] You he with alcoholism. Um, my mom was
[00:38:01] pregnant with my sister and, you know, I
[00:38:03] would just remember him like, you know,
[00:38:06] Mui Thai kicking her in the belly.
[00:38:08] >> Holy [ __ ]
[00:38:09] >> While she was pregnant. So there was
[00:38:11] there was a lot.
[00:38:11] >> You remember that?
[00:38:12] >> Yeah. Yeah. That scene in particular I
[00:38:14] remember very well.
[00:38:16] >> Um
[00:38:17] >> so you're saying that at 6 years old?
[00:38:19] >> Yeah. Yeah. So it uh it caused you know
[00:38:22] caused caused a lot of pain on the
[00:38:25] inside cuz you know I I didn't know what
[00:38:28] a stable family unit was. You know all I
[00:38:29] knew was hardship. you know, hardship
[00:38:32] coming over to the States, hardship
[00:38:35] dealing with being poor, hardship
[00:38:37] dealing with the the uh
[00:38:40] >> loss of identity,
[00:38:41] >> loss of identity for my dad, hardship
[00:38:43] dealing with the with the abuse that was
[00:38:45] going on in the household.
[00:38:47] Um, and so to me, my childhood was
[00:38:52] always just uh like something to grow
[00:38:56] out of, you know? I always wanted to
[00:38:59] like go do something
[00:39:02] out in the world where I didn't have to
[00:39:04] think about any of this [ __ ] that I was
[00:39:06] dealing with at home. Um,
[00:39:08] >> how long did that go on?
[00:39:09] >> What's up?
[00:39:09] >> How long did that go on?
[00:39:11] >> Um, it went on until I think I was nine
[00:39:14] or 10. My my mom and dad finally split.
[00:39:16] Um, and I move I moved in with my mom,
[00:39:20] my sister and I. And um, I thought we
[00:39:24] were poor when we got to the States.
[00:39:27] my mom who was, you know, she was uh
[00:39:30] trying to finish her PhD at Ruckers
[00:39:32] University at the time. We were rock
[00:39:35] bottom for like when I when my parents
[00:39:38] split and I was living with my mom and
[00:39:41] uh you know, we did our best. She did
[00:39:42] her best. Um you know, she's going to be
[00:39:44] watching this and you know, I hope she
[00:39:47] doesn't think I'm speaking ill of her or
[00:39:49] airing dirty laundry. She tr truly did
[00:39:52] do her best. But after a couple of years
[00:39:54] of bearing the stress of trying to
[00:39:56] provide for her kids, she um kind of
[00:40:00] made a decision to
[00:40:02] uh send my sister and I back to India.
[00:40:06] And so I was 14 at the time. Um and
[00:40:11] >> holy [ __ ] 14 years old.
[00:40:13] >> My sister was I think 8 years old. And
[00:40:16] we just wake up one day and my mom goes,
[00:40:18] "You guys are you guys are going to
[00:40:20] India without me." Um, and you know, she
[00:40:23] she had a relationship with somebody
[00:40:25] else at the time, and she was like,
[00:40:27] "We're going to stay here, see what we
[00:40:29] can do to, you know, get our finances in
[00:40:31] order. I'm going to try and wrap up this
[00:40:33] uh this program, and maybe I can get,
[00:40:36] you know, a professorship somewhere."
[00:40:38] And, you know, she just wanted time and
[00:40:40] space to like kind of get her [ __ ]
[00:40:43] together and get things stable.
[00:40:45] Um, and in her mind, you know, she could
[00:40:48] do that best if, you know, she also
[00:40:50] didn't have to parallelize attention and
[00:40:53] figure out how to provide for us at the
[00:40:54] same time. So, she she sent us off to.
[00:40:57] So, I remember 14 years old just getting
[00:40:59] on a [ __ ] plane by myself and like
[00:41:01] trying to, you know, take care of my
[00:41:03] sister. I didn't know what the [ __ ] was
[00:41:04] going on at the time. You know, this is
[00:41:06] 1998, dude. like there's not a lot of
[00:41:09] [ __ ] that you can look up about how to
[00:41:12] go on an international flight on your
[00:41:14] own as a 14-year-old, you know?
[00:41:16] >> Um, so
[00:41:19] we went back to India. Um, and I got,
[00:41:26] >> you know, by by this point I was a kid
[00:41:28] between two worlds, right? I was this
[00:41:31] kind of American kid that was obsessed
[00:41:33] with [ __ ] G.I. and you know F-18s and
[00:41:38] [ __ ] any you know anything US
[00:41:40] military. And then all of a sudden I was
[00:41:42] back in Madras going to uh freshman year
[00:41:46] of high school and um I got bullied a
[00:41:49] lot by by the kids over in India and man
[00:41:52] there's some [ __ ] there's bullying
[00:41:54] that goes on. Um they they do some they
[00:41:58] do some wicked [ __ ] over there and I got
[00:42:01] bullied pretty much every day that they
[00:42:02] made fun of my accent. They made fun of
[00:42:04] my clothes. I didn't know how to speak
[00:42:05] the language. I could understand them,
[00:42:07] but I didn't know how to speak it. Um,
[00:42:09] because it's like, you know, it's
[00:42:10] different neural pathways in your mind.
[00:42:13] Um, so I was, you know, I was dealing
[00:42:15] with all that. I was trying to, you
[00:42:16] know, protect my sister as much as I
[00:42:18] could and and look after her. And we
[00:42:20] were living with our with our
[00:42:21] grandparents in in India. And they they
[00:42:24] did their best, but, you know, they were
[00:42:26] they were really in advanced in years
[00:42:28] and um, you know, could only do so much.
[00:42:31] >> Could they speak English? Yeah, they
[00:42:33] could speak some some basic English.
[00:42:36] >> So, how are you guys communicating?
[00:42:37] >> Um,
[00:42:39] broken English [ __ ] essentially. Um, but
[00:42:42] my my grandma, who's still alive, um
[00:42:47] had this uh obsession with learning
[00:42:49] English, like down to
[00:42:52] every single detail. So even back then
[00:42:54] she had this little notebook she would
[00:42:55] carry around and when she heard a new
[00:42:57] English word that she didn't know she
[00:42:59] would like write it down in her little
[00:43:01] book and she would like write down the
[00:43:03] meaning of it and then she would just
[00:43:04] like you know reference that book all
[00:43:06] the time when she was trying to convey
[00:43:08] thoughts to us. Um a couple years ago
[00:43:10] actually uh at
[00:43:13] 95
[00:43:14] years old she finally became a US
[00:43:16] citizen. So there's a picture of her
[00:43:18] like you know with her certificate of
[00:43:21] citizenship and you know I was looking
[00:43:23] at that I was like yeah I'm not
[00:43:25] surprised man like she whatever she sets
[00:43:26] her [ __ ] mind to she gets after it.
[00:43:28] Um took them a long time to make their
[00:43:32] way over here. I mean the consulate in
[00:43:34] Delhi they wouldn't see them for years
[00:43:36] my grandparents. Um but you they finally
[00:43:38] did
[00:43:40] uh and then they made their way over
[00:43:42] here and she got her citizenship. So
[00:43:43] she's a phenomenal phenomenal woman. Um,
[00:43:46] but anyways,
[00:43:48] you know, we we did our best to
[00:43:49] communicate. Um, and
[00:43:53] around January of 99, I was 14, just
[00:43:57] about to turn 15. You know, my mom kind
[00:43:59] of throws a curveball at me again. She's
[00:44:01] like, "You're going to go, you know,
[00:44:02] move back in with your dad. Like, I
[00:44:04] don't want you in India for the rest of
[00:44:05] your days." So, then my dad was living
[00:44:07] in Southern California at the time. And
[00:44:10] so, again,
[00:44:11] >> moved you in with your dad.
[00:44:13] >> Yeah. Yeah. Holy [ __ ]
[00:44:16] >> Yeah. So,
[00:44:18] you know, probably a decision that she's
[00:44:22] been very introspective about for for a
[00:44:24] long time now. And um so I I hop on a a
[00:44:29] plane again by myself. My sister stays
[00:44:32] behind in India. Uh I don't quite
[00:44:35] understand the decision-m uh to this
[00:44:37] day. But hop on a plane,
[00:44:41] fly to LA, you know, I land in LAX. Um,
[00:44:44] my dad's there waiting for me. And, um,
[00:44:48] man, I've flown into LAX so many times
[00:44:50] since then. And I just remember all of
[00:44:53] the sights and I remember looking out
[00:44:55] the window as I'm like flying in and uh,
[00:44:59] and I know I'm about to meet my dad for
[00:45:01] the first time in years. You know, I
[00:45:03] haven't seen him in in many years. Um, I
[00:45:07] remember always feeling now to this day,
[00:45:09] every time I fly into LAX, I remember,
[00:45:11] you know, being a kid in that window
[00:45:12] seat, remembering what it was like to
[00:45:14] fly in. Anyways, um,
[00:45:16] >> did you talk to him?
[00:45:17] >> What's up?
[00:45:18] >> Did you talk to him in years or just not
[00:45:20] seen him?
[00:45:21] uh very very briefly, you know, we would
[00:45:24] occasionally uh we would do this thing
[00:45:27] where my mom would bring me to, you
[00:45:29] know, this this parking lot of a mall in
[00:45:33] Jersey and let him have like 30 minutes
[00:45:35] with us and uh
[00:45:37] >> holy [ __ ]
[00:45:38] >> You know, he you would do his best u you
[00:45:41] know, you would like try and catch up uh
[00:45:43] and see how we were doing. Um,
[00:45:48] >> what were you thinking
[00:45:49] >> at the time?
[00:45:50] >> Yeah,
[00:45:50] >> at
[00:45:50] >> the time I was like, I don't really want
[00:45:52] to see this dude, you know? Um,
[00:45:56] I didn't really I I didn't really have
[00:45:58] many thoughts about it. I was just like,
[00:46:00] you know, this is not a person that like
[00:46:02] I want to spend time around. And so, uh,
[00:46:05] you know, I I'll deal with it. I'll go
[00:46:06] say hi. And I was like, frankly, I was
[00:46:10] very selfish about it. I was like, you
[00:46:11] know, maybe I can get him to like, you
[00:46:13] know, get me a buy me a video game or
[00:46:15] some [ __ ] Um, so, uh, now thinking
[00:46:19] back, um,
[00:46:22] >> yeah, it was it it was tough times all
[00:46:25] around,
[00:46:27] you know, life takes you on many
[00:46:30] journeys, and one of the journeys it's
[00:46:31] certainly taken me on is being a father
[00:46:34] now. And you know, I I have a
[00:46:36] 14-year-old son at this point, and um he
[00:46:39] lives with his mom. And when I see him
[00:46:42] for brief periods of time, I have
[00:46:45] flashbacks to, you know, thinking about
[00:46:47] how my dad would try and interact with
[00:46:50] me and like try and like catch up and
[00:46:51] like, you know, make a best effort pass,
[00:46:54] you know, being involved. And uh and I
[00:46:56] would just be like, I don't I don't
[00:46:57] care. Like, let's just let's just get
[00:46:59] this over with and like move move on
[00:47:01] with our lives. seeing it from the other
[00:47:04] side um you know many many years later
[00:47:06] has been has been a very interesting um
[00:47:09] experience for me
[00:47:12] but that
[00:47:14] that was
[00:47:15] >> do you feel that
[00:47:17] >> do I feel
[00:47:17] >> is your son like that to you
[00:47:21] >> um he's uh he's a very cerebral teenager
[00:47:24] he he really loves math and science and
[00:47:29] um just thinking through things very
[00:47:31] logically and So, it's sometimes I feel
[00:47:34] it it it's tough building an emotional
[00:47:36] connection with him. Um,
[00:47:40] some of the best memories I have of of
[00:47:42] my now 14-year-old son. Um, are, you
[00:47:46] know, I would after I left the military,
[00:47:48] I was working in the DC area and I would
[00:47:50] commute to downtown DC. I would come
[00:47:52] back to the house and it would be like
[00:47:55] late at night and he would run around
[00:47:57] the corner and he would just be like,
[00:47:59] "Dad." and uh he'd be so happy to see
[00:48:02] me. And um you know I have I have
[00:48:07] regrets not spending more time with him
[00:48:11] uh and just like capturing those moments
[00:48:13] in my mind
[00:48:15] um because they go fast uh and I was
[00:48:18] focused on work you know I was focused
[00:48:20] on you know making something of myself
[00:48:22] after leaving the military.
[00:48:25] It's all the same [ __ ] that my dad was
[00:48:27] trying trying to deal with when when he
[00:48:29] lost his identity and he was trying to
[00:48:31] rebuild himself and he was feeling the
[00:48:33] stress and because of that we took a
[00:48:35] backseat and uh and all of this. So I
[00:48:37] just see myself unconsciously repeating
[00:48:40] the mistakes of of the past, you know?
[00:48:43] So
[00:48:44] >> I [ __ ] do that too.
[00:48:46] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[00:48:48] >> And I think about it all the [ __ ]
[00:48:50] time.
[00:48:51] >> Yeah. How do how do you
[00:48:53] deal with it?
[00:48:55] It's tough. Um,
[00:49:01] you know, I
[00:49:07] I tell myself, you know, when I look at
[00:49:10] my family
[00:49:11] and I just look at and see
[00:49:15] how their demeanor is, you know, do I
[00:49:17] have a happy family?
[00:49:20] And I figure if I have a happy family,
[00:49:23] then things must be going good.
[00:49:25] >> Yeah.
[00:49:26] >> But then hearing that, I mean,
[00:49:30] and my my son's showing a lot more
[00:49:33] interest in me right now. I'm trying
[00:49:35] like really [ __ ] hard to
[00:49:38] set my businesses up so I don't have to
[00:49:41] be in them all the [ __ ] time, you
[00:49:43] know? And it's it's it's
[00:49:46] and it and and I want to be in them all
[00:49:49] the [ __ ] time.
[00:49:50] >> Mhm.
[00:49:51] >> Because it's my, you know, this is the
[00:49:53] most interesting thing.
[00:49:54] >> Yeah.
[00:49:55] >> To me,
[00:49:56] >> but also so is fatherhood.
[00:49:58] >> Yeah.
[00:49:58] >> And then it's it's that.
[00:50:02] But I can see it now, you know, he's
[00:50:04] four going on five and I can really see
[00:50:07] the [ __ ] wheels spinning in his head.
[00:50:08] And
[00:50:09] >> I
[00:50:13] I know exactly what you're saying. When
[00:50:14] they run around the corner, they're all
[00:50:15] excited that you're home and you got one
[00:50:17] more [ __ ] phone call that you have to
[00:50:19] [ __ ] do and you got to, you know what
[00:50:21] I mean?
[00:50:21] >> You got to open this stupid laptop cuz
[00:50:23] you know,
[00:50:23] >> you got to look at the [ __ ] phone and
[00:50:25] they see you looking at the phone or you
[00:50:27] got the meta glasses now and you're
[00:50:28] [ __ ] talking to themselves and
[00:50:30] talking to yourself and it's just
[00:50:31] >> looks like you're talk.
[00:50:33] >> I just I [ __ ] hate it, man. It's
[00:50:35] >> I know.
[00:50:35] >> It crushes your [ __ ] soul.
[00:50:37] >> Yeah. My my girlfriend and I were
[00:50:39] talking about this the other day. Um, so
[00:50:40] we have a a two-month-old and um,
[00:50:45] you know, she was looking at her phone
[00:50:46] like deal some customer email had come
[00:50:48] in, right? And she's like trying to deal
[00:50:50] with it and she looks over and our son
[00:50:53] is just like looking at her and she
[00:50:55] said, "I've never felt so guilty in my
[00:50:58] life cuz, you know, he's like looking
[00:51:01] at, you know, he's he thinks you're the
[00:51:03] whole universe and the whole universe is
[00:51:05] has its attention
[00:51:07] looking elsewhere." Mhm.
[00:51:08] >> So,
[00:51:10] >> it's a dichotomy that I think, you know,
[00:51:11] every father who's a professional has
[00:51:14] had to contend with. Um, I I don't have
[00:51:17] all the answers. All I know is at the
[00:51:19] very least, these are things that are
[00:51:22] now on the forefront of my mind, whereas
[00:51:24] in the past they might not have been. In
[00:51:27] the past, I might have just brushed over
[00:51:29] them. And you know, for example, when I
[00:51:32] was active duty, like my sole focus when
[00:51:36] I was deployed, when I was active duty
[00:51:38] was [ __ ] being deployed and getting
[00:51:40] the getting the job done. And
[00:51:42] >> it sounds terrible to say now.
[00:51:44] >> Mhm.
[00:51:45] >> But
[00:51:47] I I I don't know. Immature prefrontal
[00:51:50] cortex, I suppose. I think, you know, I
[00:51:52] think about
[00:51:56] I mean, he has to show interest, but you
[00:51:57] know, and that I I travel not a lot, but
[00:52:01] a decent amount for work.
[00:52:02] >> Mhm.
[00:52:02] >> And um couple weeks ago, we were
[00:52:05] supposed to be in Europe for a couple of
[00:52:08] big interviews, and then that got
[00:52:09] cancelled cuz this [ __ ] ice storm.
[00:52:12] >> And I could like I tell him now, you
[00:52:14] know, when I'm leaving, when I'm I used
[00:52:16] to just tell him the day I'm leaving,
[00:52:19] >> he's not going to give a [ __ ] either
[00:52:20] way. Whatever. Now he's like, "What do
[00:52:22] you mean you're leaving?"
[00:52:23] >> Mhm.
[00:52:24] >> I'm coming. You know, and it's like,
[00:52:26] "Well,
[00:52:28] you're not ready for that." So, so I I I
[00:52:32] now I'm trying to
[00:52:35] encourage him or motivate him to mature
[00:52:38] a little bit.
[00:52:39] >> Yeah.
[00:52:39] >> So that he can come with me on business
[00:52:42] trips because he's going to grow up
[00:52:44] different, you know, than than how I
[00:52:46] grew up. I wasn't exposed to business
[00:52:49] and the kind of stuff that I'm not even
[00:52:52] close. And it's with you too. I mean,
[00:52:54] your career has just been, you know, and
[00:52:57] so he's going to be exposed to things
[00:52:59] that you were never exposed to and and
[00:53:01] he's going to have to learn how to
[00:53:02] [ __ ] deal with things like like
[00:53:06] >> relationships with people and, you know,
[00:53:08] important like in in higher places and
[00:53:12] and and and
[00:53:14] just all kinds of [ __ ] that you deal
[00:53:16] with in business. And so you know then
[00:53:21] and how do you tell him no? You know so
[00:53:24] when what I did
[00:53:27] is
[00:53:30] I told him if he wants to go with me
[00:53:33] that he has to learn a set of
[00:53:36] responsibilities and if he learns those
[00:53:38] responsibilities then I'll give him a
[00:53:40] couple of more responsibilities that he
[00:53:42] can work on.
[00:53:42] >> Yeah.
[00:53:43] >> And then if he does those then I'll give
[00:53:45] him some more. And I tell them, you
[00:53:46] know, everybody that works here is the
[00:53:48] absolute [ __ ] best at what they do.
[00:53:52] Nobody's going to wipe your ass for you.
[00:53:54] Nobody's going to help you get dressed.
[00:53:55] Nobody's going to help you brush your
[00:53:57] teeth. Nobody's going to help you take a
[00:53:59] shower. Nobody's going to dry you off.
[00:54:01] So, you have to be able to put your
[00:54:04] socks, your pants, your underwear, your
[00:54:05] shirt, comb your hair, brush your teeth,
[00:54:08] tie your shoes, and then when you can do
[00:54:10] all that, then we'll move on to the next
[00:54:12] set of things.
[00:54:13] >> Yeah. you learn how to do those and then
[00:54:15] you can come on a trip with me. And uh
[00:54:19] he asked me in the moment I had to think
[00:54:20] about it because I was like [ __ ] if I
[00:54:22] tell him something he's just going to go
[00:54:23] [ __ ] do it and then and then I'll
[00:54:25] come. But you know it nobody has the
[00:54:27] time to take care of you. So you have to
[00:54:29] learn to take care of yourself and then
[00:54:31] you can come
[00:54:33] >> and um so I I think I don't know
[00:54:37] >> it's helped my you know what I mean
[00:54:38] guilt. I've given you something that you
[00:54:41] can do to get yourself ready to be able
[00:54:43] to come spend time with me when I'm
[00:54:44] trying to provide for the family.
[00:54:46] >> Yeah. I mean, I think it's one of the
[00:54:48] most important things that we can think
[00:54:50] about as a human is how to figure out in
[00:54:53] the midst of all this [ __ ] chaos that
[00:54:55] we're in right now. And we talked about
[00:54:56] all the chaos that we're in right now.
[00:54:59] You talk about it with all your guests
[00:55:00] all day, every day. All this upheaval,
[00:55:04] all these changing times and so on. I
[00:55:07] think
[00:55:09] figuring this [ __ ] out that we're
[00:55:10] talking about right here is one of the
[00:55:13] most important things that we can do as
[00:55:14] men, I suppose.
[00:55:16] >> Um,
[00:55:19] is is it like maybe it's not figuring
[00:55:21] out how what the best way to run the
[00:55:23] company is or like satisfying the
[00:55:26] customer 100% of the time, 24 hours a
[00:55:29] day, seven days a week. It's figuring
[00:55:31] out how to balance that with this little
[00:55:33] kid who's looking at you like you're his
[00:55:34] whole [ __ ] world.
[00:55:37] >> You are.
[00:55:38] >> Yeah. Um and these are, you know, these
[00:55:41] are things that my dad probably realized
[00:55:43] too late. Um and uh when I moved in with
[00:55:49] him, he didn't, I think, know how to
[00:55:52] process all of this stuff that we're
[00:55:55] talking about. and he sort of let the
[00:55:58] alcoholism get to him and that resulted
[00:56:01] in three of the most torturous years I
[00:56:05] think of my life.
[00:56:08] Uh where basically every single day was
[00:56:11] um you know physical abuse, getting
[00:56:13] getting beat, getting the belt and so
[00:56:15] on. You know my dad he grew up in a in a
[00:56:18] boarding school in India and you know
[00:56:19] that that [ __ ] is a gladiator academy.
[00:56:23] >> Yeah.
[00:56:24] >> Yeah.
[00:56:25] Um, and so he he just took what he knows
[00:56:28] and tried to apply it to me. And in his
[00:56:30] mind, you know, I had
[00:56:33] I hadn't been raised the way he wanted
[00:56:35] me to be raised. So he's like, "All
[00:56:36] right, we're going to fix this [ __ ]
[00:56:38] right now." And that was his way of
[00:56:39] fixing it. Um, so,
[00:56:43] you know, all pretty much all high
[00:56:45] school was was dealing with that [ __ ]
[00:56:48] Um,
[00:56:50] and uh, yeah, the the abuse was
[00:56:52] constant, you know, to the point where I
[00:56:54] would hear the keys jingle in the door
[00:56:56] and it would just cause like a like a
[00:56:58] fear response in my brain. To this day,
[00:57:00] I hear keys jingling at the door and
[00:57:02] like something triggers in my in my
[00:57:05] brain, like a like some kind of ancient
[00:57:08] trauma response or something. Um,
[00:57:11] so all of it came to a head right around
[00:57:14] my senior year of high school. um you
[00:57:18] know and I had always wanted to like go
[00:57:21] do something with uh the military. So I
[00:57:24] was looking at West Point. I was looking
[00:57:26] at um the Air Force Academy.
[00:57:29] Um
[00:57:31] and
[00:57:32] uh senior year of high school. He um
[00:57:37] so one night
[00:57:40] I I come back home and he you know
[00:57:43] discovers that I hadn't turned in some
[00:57:45] [ __ ] homework or some [ __ ] at at
[00:57:48] school
[00:57:50] and um and I know he's just going to lay
[00:57:54] it lay it on, you know. And I I endured
[00:57:58] some terrible beatings with him. And so
[00:57:59] I knew what was coming. And uh I was
[00:58:03] like something snapped in my brain. I
[00:58:05] was like, "You know what?
[00:58:08] Just not going to deal with this [ __ ]
[00:58:09] anymore." And I turned around. So I I
[00:58:14] walked to the door, he opens the door,
[00:58:16] he you know, starts going off and he's
[00:58:19] like, "Get the [ __ ] in here." Like, you
[00:58:21] know, you know what this is about.
[00:58:24] I'm like, I'm not going to deal with
[00:58:26] this anymore. Turned around, walked away
[00:58:30] uh and basically
[00:58:32] uh I ran away from home essentially. And
[00:58:37] um I had a friend at the time take me
[00:58:39] in. I basically went to a pay phone down
[00:58:41] the street. I was like, "Hey, you come
[00:58:42] pick me up. Like this is what's going
[00:58:44] on." And he's like, "Uh, dude, what are
[00:58:47] you going to do?" I was like, "Well, can
[00:58:48] you guys take me in?" And he was like,
[00:58:50] "That's a big ask, dude. um you know,
[00:58:53] let me go talk to my dad. And much
[00:58:56] credit to them, you know, they took in
[00:58:58] some random [ __ ] kid that they didn't
[00:59:00] know. Uh just took me at face value
[00:59:03] regarding what my situation was. And I
[00:59:06] lived with them for for a few months.
[00:59:08] And um that set my stabilizers
[00:59:12] essentially into a very chaotic pattern.
[00:59:15] Like um I was getting into all kinds of
[00:59:18] [ __ ] So, you know, I
[00:59:22] we were
[00:59:25] doing, you know, petty crime stuff. Um,
[00:59:28] you know, this is Southern California in
[00:59:30] 2001, 2002. It's like,
[00:59:34] >> you know, Fast and Furious had just come
[00:59:35] out. Everyone's into their [ __ ] rice
[00:59:37] rockets or street racing and there's all
[00:59:40] these like clicks around that scene. And
[00:59:42] so, we're participating in all that. We
[00:59:46] we had gotten into some gambling debts.
[00:59:48] Uh so we were like driving out to the
[00:59:51] Indian casinos out east just just
[00:59:53] getting in dumb [ __ ] trouble all the
[00:59:55] time. Um you know at one one point I
[00:59:59] found myself uh driving his my friend's
[01:00:03] car back. He wanted to stay behind at
[01:00:05] the casino. He like hitches a ride with
[01:00:07] some rando dudes and uh you know those
[01:00:10] dudes are like coked up in the front of
[01:00:12] their vehicle. They're just doing lines
[01:00:13] of coke and [ __ ] and he shows up and he
[01:00:15] was like, "Dude, what are we doing? Like
[01:00:17] what are we like we're just circling a
[01:00:19] drain here." I was like, "We are
[01:00:20] circling the drain." Um, and so I had to
[01:00:23] kind of
[01:00:25] part ways and figure out, you know, what
[01:00:27] I'm going to do with myself. So you
[01:00:29] >> still in high school at this point?
[01:00:30] >> Still in high school. Yeah.
[01:00:30] >> Holy [ __ ] dude.
[01:00:31] >> Senior year of high school.
[01:00:34] um you know in the background 911 had
[01:00:36] happened
[01:00:38] uh and that had this you know it didn't
[01:00:43] affect me right away. Um you know
[01:00:47] Southern California at the time was
[01:00:48] pretty far removed from the events in
[01:00:50] New York and so you know people were
[01:00:51] processing it and um but it wasn't like
[01:00:55] you know it wasn't like people processed
[01:00:57] it on the East Coast. It was I think it
[01:00:59] was a lot more personal for everybody in
[01:01:01] in the New York, New Jersey,
[01:01:03] Pennsylvania area on the East Coast for
[01:01:04] everyone. But, you know, Southern
[01:01:05] California, it was like, man, that was
[01:01:07] some wild [ __ ] that just went down in
[01:01:08] New York. Like, what the [ __ ] is going
[01:01:10] on?
[01:01:12] But it somehow seeped into my
[01:01:13] subconscious and I was like,
[01:01:18] you know, is there a way that I can
[01:01:19] contribute to
[01:01:21] figuring out a solution to the [ __ ]
[01:01:24] thing that just happened here? Um
[01:01:28] but it had to bake for a bit longer. Um
[01:01:31] so I I went through this circling the
[01:01:33] drain phase and um actually the last
[01:01:37] time I saw my dad was um oh so while I
[01:01:41] was living with my friend and
[01:01:43] essentially homeless. Uh
[01:01:47] he kept coming around and basically
[01:01:50] begging to see me. like he would beg my
[01:01:52] friend's parents like, "Hey, can you
[01:01:53] just put me in front of Nick uh for a
[01:01:55] few minutes? You know, let me talk to
[01:01:57] him. Let me explain what's going on.
[01:01:58] Like, apologize." All this stuff. I was
[01:02:01] like, "I don't even want to talk to him.
[01:02:02] I don't want to see him. I want to talk
[01:02:03] to him. I I just want nothing to do with
[01:02:06] him." And um the last time I saw him, so
[01:02:11] I only saw him once after I ran away and
[01:02:14] it was because I had gotten rolled up in
[01:02:18] like Gardina, California or some [ __ ]
[01:02:20] cuz I was I took my friend's car for a
[01:02:22] joy ride out in town. I didn't have a
[01:02:24] driver's license. Cops pulled me over.
[01:02:26] They're like, "Fuck are you doing?" I
[01:02:27] was like,
[01:02:29] you know, I I lied to him. I was like,
[01:02:31] "Yeah, of course I have a license." And
[01:02:33] that was [ __ ] stupid. So, like they
[01:02:35] quickly figured out that wasn't the
[01:02:36] case, slapped the cuffs on me, took me
[01:02:38] to the station, called my friend's
[01:02:39] family because the car was registered to
[01:02:41] them. Um, and so,
[01:02:45] uh, at that point, my friend's dad calls
[01:02:48] up my dad. He's like, "Hey, you got to
[01:02:50] come take your kid to the courthouse cuz
[01:02:52] like, you know, they're going to, you
[01:02:55] know, whatever. Do whatever they're
[01:02:56] going to do." So my dad comes, he picks
[01:02:58] me up, we go to the courthouse, they
[01:03:00] like give me a fine or ticket or some
[01:03:02] [ __ ] and um I don't say a word. Like
[01:03:05] we're just sitting in the car. I don't
[01:03:06] say a word to my dad.
[01:03:09] He drops me off at school that day.
[01:03:13] Uh and that was the last time I ever saw
[01:03:15] him. So he he moved to the east coast
[01:03:20] after that.
[01:03:20] >> He dropped you off at school and then
[01:03:23] >> that was it.
[01:03:23] >> That was it.
[01:03:24] >> That was it. Um did
[01:03:25] >> you say goodbye?
[01:03:26] >> Never saw him again. We didn't say a
[01:03:27] word.
[01:03:28] >> I didn't say a word to him. He didn't
[01:03:29] say a word to me. I just I just got out,
[01:03:33] >> went to school.
[01:03:35] >> Um
[01:03:37] after that I uh
[01:03:41] I moved in with my aunt who lived in
[01:03:43] Ohio and I was getting ready to join the
[01:03:45] military. I was like, "All right, we're
[01:03:46] going to do this thing." Um I was like,
[01:03:47] "All right, who's who's recruiting?" Um
[01:03:50] so because I had to part ways from the
[01:03:52] the whole Southern California scene. you
[01:03:53] know, I was like, I got to get the [ __ ]
[01:03:54] out of here, otherwise, you know, I'm
[01:03:56] going to end up in a gang or some [ __ ]
[01:03:58] So, um,
[01:04:01] move go to Ohio and, um, I have fond
[01:04:04] memories of of my aunt's place in Ohio.
[01:04:07] So, this is my mom's sister. Um, you
[01:04:11] know, they've always been very loving to
[01:04:13] me. She was the first person that that
[01:04:14] saw me after I was born in the hospital.
[01:04:16] Um, they've always been very caring and
[01:04:18] loving for me. So, they they were like,
[01:04:19] "Just come over here. We'll take you in.
[01:04:22] Do whatever you want." like you want to
[01:04:23] get a job, you know, go to community
[01:04:26] college or whatever, you can go ahead
[01:04:28] and do that. Like let's just get you
[01:04:30] stable and settled after all the [ __ ]
[01:04:32] that you've been through. Um, so I go
[01:04:34] over there, I start working in a paper
[01:04:36] factory, like you know the [ __ ]
[01:04:38] Dunder Mifflin [ __ ] warehouse, like
[01:04:40] that show, The Office.
[01:04:42] >> Basically that I was like hauling paper
[01:04:45] boxes around and like you know putting
[01:04:47] them in in shipping containers and
[01:04:50] whatnot.
[01:04:51] Um, and the whole time I'm looking at
[01:04:53] I'm looking at the because it's 2002,
[01:04:55] right? The [ __ ] classifides page in
[01:04:57] the in the paper and I'm keeping my eye
[01:04:59] on the recruiting bonuses that all the
[01:05:01] various services are putting out, right?
[01:05:04] Uh, and they're they're publishing them
[01:05:05] in the paper. And so the Air Force came
[01:05:06] out one day with like this $18,000
[01:05:09] recruiting bonus. Um, and uh I'm I'm
[01:05:13] talking to the Army Marines, too, and
[01:05:15] they all had weight list because it's
[01:05:16] post 911. Everyone's trying to join up.
[01:05:20] 18K sounds pretty cool to a dude that
[01:05:22] works in a [ __ ] paper factory. So, I
[01:05:25] call up the Air Force recruiter and I'm
[01:05:27] like, "Hey, when can you get me in?"
[01:05:28] They're like, "What's an 18K?"
[01:05:30] >> Uh, $18,000 recruiting bonus.
[01:05:33] >> Oh, okay.
[01:05:33] >> Yeah.
[01:05:34] >> Okay, my bet.
[01:05:35] >> Yeah. Um, I was like, "Yeah, sounds
[01:05:38] pretty good." I mean, I didn't know any
[01:05:39] [ __ ] about like taxes and like all of
[01:05:42] that. Um
[01:05:45] so I go I go to the recruiting office
[01:05:48] and um yeah I enlist and they're like
[01:05:50] ship you out in in a few months. So
[01:05:52] October 2002 shipped out to basic
[01:05:55] training in uh Lackland Air Force Base,
[01:05:57] Texas. and that that for the first time
[01:06:00] I felt like, you know, I was setting out
[01:06:02] on my my own personal adventure that was
[01:06:05] just for me and it wasn't tied to like
[01:06:08] anything that my family wanted me to do
[01:06:10] or my dad wanted me to do or like any
[01:06:12] [ __ ] like I felt out like I was finally
[01:06:14] setting out on my own. I think a lot of
[01:06:15] guys that enlist in the military feel
[01:06:17] that way
[01:06:18] >> um when they finally, you know, depart
[01:06:20] for basic.
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[01:08:23] >> Were you in communication with your mom?
[01:08:25] >> Yeah.
[01:08:25] >> After after India,
[01:08:27] >> the whole time with where I was living
[01:08:29] with my dad, uh, my mom never reached
[01:08:33] out to me, which I found like just
[01:08:36] weird.
[01:08:36] >> Why not?
[01:08:38] >> I don't know. I haven't asked her about
[01:08:39] it. Um, you know, I have a really good
[01:08:42] relationship with her now. Um, and I I
[01:08:45] know for a fact that she just has a lot
[01:08:48] of regret about all this stuff. Um,
[01:08:53] I know her personality and she wouldn't
[01:08:55] have reached out because she's still in
[01:08:58] like, I'm going to try and fix this mo
[01:09:01] like this set of events that I threw
[01:09:04] into motion. I'm going to try and like
[01:09:06] reel it back. I'm going to try and fix
[01:09:08] it. I'm going to try and like get that
[01:09:09] job. I'm going to try and like get my
[01:09:11] kids back here. Um and and when she's in
[01:09:14] that mode of like I just need to like
[01:09:16] set my sights on this and like get it
[01:09:19] across the line.
[01:09:20] >> She wanted to build so that you guys
[01:09:21] could have a comfortable life.
[01:09:23] >> Yeah. Exactly.
[01:09:23] >> And maybe never
[01:09:25] >> Yeah.
[01:09:25] >> Maybe never got it built.
[01:09:26] >> Yeah. Yeah. That's that's exactly right.
[01:09:29] By the time she did, it was too late.
[01:09:30] You know, I was I I was grown up and I
[01:09:34] had left. And you know, when I think
[01:09:35] about it as a parent now,
[01:09:37] you know, that was probably devastating
[01:09:38] for her. You know, she sends us away,
[01:09:40] she thinks she's going to like make it
[01:09:41] happen in a in a couple years time, you
[01:09:43] know, land land a good job, get us get
[01:09:46] us in a stable situation, and then, you
[01:09:48] know, her her kids are grown up and
[01:09:50] unrecognizable by the time she she makes
[01:09:52] it happen. Um, so she she came and saw
[01:09:56] me off uh at one point before I left for
[01:09:58] basic. Um, so my aunt, you know, threw
[01:10:00] me a little uh little going away thing.
[01:10:03] There was like Yeah, this was right
[01:10:06] outside Right Patterson Air Force Base
[01:10:07] in Dayton, Ohio is where they lived. And
[01:10:09] um
[01:10:11] so there was a bunch of retired Air
[01:10:12] Force people there. They're like all
[01:10:14] giving me advice and [ __ ] They're like,
[01:10:15] you know, 20 years is going to go by
[01:10:16] like that. And I'm like, "Yeah,
[01:10:17] whatever, old man." Like it's some
[01:10:18] [ __ ] turn. Um and my mom shows up and
[01:10:24] um she's just confused. She's like,
[01:10:26] "What are you doing? Like
[01:10:28] what? Why are you doing this?" I mean,
[01:10:32] honestly, I don't know. like it it just
[01:10:34] you just [ __ ] feel it calling to you,
[01:10:37] you know, like it's just a thing you got
[01:10:38] to do. And I went and did it as an
[01:10:41] Indian kid, you know, in in the early
[01:10:44] 2000s, especially an immigrant kid. It's
[01:10:46] possibly like the most
[01:10:49] judgmentinducing thing you could do,
[01:10:51] right? Because all all these people are
[01:10:54] going to fancy schools and getting their
[01:10:57] degrees and medicine and all this stuff.
[01:10:59] And actually, I had one lady come up to
[01:11:01] me, one of my aunt's friends, and she
[01:11:03] was like, "You're enlisting in the
[01:11:04] military." She was like, "Only criminals
[01:11:07] do that." And I was like, "Well, I don't
[01:11:10] think that's true. You That's kind of a
[01:11:13] stupid comment to make."
[01:11:16] Hilariously, after having spent much
[01:11:18] time at SOCOM, it's kind of funny
[01:11:21] because it's like it's a fine [ __ ]
[01:11:23] line between being a good like,
[01:11:26] >> you know, special operator and being a
[01:11:28] criminal, you know.
[01:11:30] >> Um
[01:11:32] yeah, so I airborne cryptologic linguist
[01:11:35] I uh I enlisted um as um as a
[01:11:39] cryptologic linguist. I didn't know what
[01:11:40] the [ __ ] that meant. They were like,
[01:11:42] "You get to go learn a language. Um,
[01:11:45] like you could learn Arabic and you
[01:11:47] know, I think they have you do some
[01:11:48] James Bond shit." I was like, "Fuck
[01:11:50] yeah, dude. James Bond, I'm all about
[01:11:51] it. Like, let's go." Just blowing smoke
[01:11:55] up my ass, dude. Those guys had no
[01:11:56] [ __ ] idea what that career field
[01:11:59] entailed. Um, but they they got me
[01:12:03] pretty good. Um, I I signed up, went to
[01:12:07] basic, and that was whatever.
[01:12:10] Really for me, the the thing that sort
[01:12:13] of
[01:12:15] set the tone for like my active duty
[01:12:18] time was um after basic, we um we
[01:12:22] shipped out for uh SEIR school. So, SEIR
[01:12:25] level C uh which the Air Force puts all
[01:12:28] of its high-risisk aviators through um
[01:12:31] in Spokane, Washington. So,
[01:12:33] >> no [ __ ] You went there right after boot
[01:12:35] camp?
[01:12:35] >> Yeah, dude. It was pretty [ __ ] crazy.
[01:12:37] >> Was that the tier one school?
[01:12:39] >> Um,
[01:12:39] >> tier one.
[01:12:41] >> It's uh it's it's the level CER.
[01:12:43] >> I I don't know what the
[01:12:45] >> Yeah,
[01:12:45] >> that's the highest one, right?
[01:12:47] >> Yeah, it's the highest one.
[01:12:47] >> Yeah, that's
[01:12:48] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[01:12:49] >> Holy [ __ ] I'm 18 years old.
[01:12:52] >> Air Force boot camp.
[01:12:53] >> Air Force boot camp. And then And then
[01:12:55] you shipping out to [ __ ] Sears
[01:12:57] School. Um, you know, and to an Indian
[01:12:59] kid from [ __ ] the suburbs of Jersey
[01:13:02] and East LA, like
[01:13:05] you know, survival school at the I don't
[01:13:07] know how they do it now, but back then
[01:13:09] in in 2002, December 2002, it was you
[01:13:13] did five days or whatever out in the
[01:13:16] field and then you you know, you do some
[01:13:19] other [ __ ] after that, which we'll get
[01:13:21] into here in a second. But they had just
[01:13:23] had a giant snowstorm out in the
[01:13:25] mountains of
[01:13:27] uh the Kixu National Forest where they
[01:13:30] where they do all the the field portion.
[01:13:31] So like eastern Washington, Idaho
[01:13:33] panhandle area. And dude, the [ __ ]
[01:13:37] snow was I had never seen anything like
[01:13:38] it, man. Like I you know, I had never
[01:13:41] seen snow like that in my life. Um, and
[01:13:44] so then you're out there, you you got a
[01:13:46] [ __ ] pack on, your snowshoes, like
[01:13:48] these Vietnam era snowshoes, your
[01:13:50] [ __ ] Vietnam era Alice pack, you got
[01:13:53] [ __ ] in there. You're like trudging up
[01:13:55] these mountains. I had never walked up a
[01:13:57] [ __ ] mountain before, right? But and
[01:13:59] now, you know, here we are. You're like
[01:14:02] post you're post hauling even with the
[01:14:04] [ __ ] snowshoes on. The straps on the
[01:14:07] goddamn snowshoes come off. So you like
[01:14:08] you lean over and you're trying to like
[01:14:10] unfuck the straps and then your [ __ ]
[01:14:12] Alice pack comes over and hits you
[01:14:13] clocks you in the back of the head and
[01:14:15] you're like just a [ __ ] mess and if
[01:14:17] you don't have that [ __ ] tied down, you
[01:14:18] know, goes [ __ ] garage sale all over
[01:14:21] the place. Now you're holding everybody
[01:14:22] up. So, you know, you're just a cluster
[01:14:24] [ __ ] Um it it was it was an interesting
[01:14:28] experience for 18-year-old Nick. Uh I
[01:14:31] hated it um for the first couple days.
[01:14:34] Um I really hated it. I was like, "What
[01:14:35] the [ __ ] did I get myself into here?"
[01:14:38] And um and then about 48 hours in
[01:14:42] something changed and so we were on a
[01:14:44] movement through the mountains and you
[01:14:46] know we had just like hunted our game
[01:14:48] and like you know they had taught you
[01:14:49] how to skin the [ __ ] thing and like
[01:14:51] cook it and eat it and all that [ __ ] Uh
[01:14:53] and then they set you off on um on your
[01:14:56] own kind of navigation rally points and
[01:14:58] so you know you pair up and then you go
[01:15:01] you're off you know moving through the
[01:15:02] mountains. And so we're moving for like
[01:15:06] 12 hours or whatever. um you know, going
[01:15:10] through our navigation points and we the
[01:15:12] rally point that they have everyone end
[01:15:14] up at uh is in this kind of flat area
[01:15:18] with mountains all around and they've
[01:15:21] got like a like a little tent stood up
[01:15:24] and you know we kind of clear the tree
[01:15:27] line at like [ __ ] 9 9 in the evening
[01:15:32] and we show up to the the rally point
[01:15:36] tent and they've got like you know, hot
[01:15:38] broth for you and all that [ __ ] Um, and
[01:15:41] they're like, "All right, get your
[01:15:43] sleeping bag set up underneath here."
[01:15:44] And it's like a open tent, right? It's
[01:15:46] not like, you know, some comfortable
[01:15:47] situation. It's literally just a canvas
[01:15:50] um on some sticks. So, we set up our
[01:15:53] sleeping bags. It starts snowing. So,
[01:15:55] I'm sitting there eating my [ __ ]
[01:15:58] peach MRE [ __ ] thing.
[01:16:01] And something just clicked in my mind,
[01:16:03] dude. Um, I'm sitting there and I walk
[01:16:06] out of the tent. I'm eating my [ __ ]
[01:16:08] MREs and the snow is falling silently
[01:16:11] and I can kind of like see in the
[01:16:14] moonlight the mountains around me and
[01:16:17] everything's just peaceful and still and
[01:16:19] quiet and something just clicked in my
[01:16:23] brain. I was like, "This is an amazing
[01:16:26] moment for me." And like the sense of
[01:16:30] peaceful
[01:16:32] stillness I had in that moment,
[01:16:35] I continue to chase to this day. Um
[01:16:37] sometimes like when I go on
[01:16:39] mountaineering trips and you know,
[01:16:40] you're on the top of a summit and you
[01:16:43] know, it's after all the difficult parts
[01:16:45] of the climb are over and you're sitting
[01:16:46] there and you're like, you're just
[01:16:49] wishing for that moment to come back,
[01:16:51] right? You're chasing it, but it never
[01:16:52] does. you know, you almost get there
[01:16:53] sometimes and it's just it's an elusive
[01:16:57] moving target. So to this day, you know,
[01:16:59] that
[01:17:00] >> that feeling I continue to chase. But um
[01:17:04] that that was that was cool. It was a
[01:17:07] special moment for me. I finally my soul
[01:17:08] finally felt like some semblance of
[01:17:10] peace after all the the [ __ ] that I had
[01:17:13] endured with my dad and all the moving
[01:17:15] around and all the family drama and and
[01:17:17] all of it. And then the second thing
[01:17:20] that happened was when they put you in
[01:17:24] uh in the box
[01:17:26] uh you know you're in the box for a few
[01:17:28] day. You know this very well. Um
[01:17:30] >> I don't I never did sir.
[01:17:32] >> Oh no [ __ ]
[01:17:33] >> Mm-m.
[01:17:36] >> So you know I I want to make sure I stay
[01:17:39] clean when I talk about some of this
[01:17:41] stuff. When you wrap up the field phase
[01:17:43] you they're kind of [ __ ] and they
[01:17:45] trick you. They're like, "Uh, we're
[01:17:47] going to have some hot pizza waiting for
[01:17:49] you at this [ __ ] rally point." And
[01:17:50] well, suffice to say, there's no goddamn
[01:17:52] pizza at the rally point. And, uh, you
[01:17:56] better buckle in for several more days
[01:17:58] of [ __ ]
[01:18:00] Um, and then you get put in the box. And
[01:18:04] one interesting thing that happened
[01:18:07] in the box is um you know they're
[01:18:10] allowed to that's one of the few schools
[01:18:13] in the military that you know can
[01:18:15] >> get physical with you in ways that other
[01:18:17] schools can't right
[01:18:19] >> so one thing that was happening in the
[01:18:20] box was
[01:18:22] uh I was starting to have these trauma
[01:18:24] responses to the physicality of it you
[01:18:27] know because I I wasn't able to do
[01:18:29] anything you helpless and uh you know
[01:18:31] they're kind of doing their thing and uh
[01:18:34] they had to call pause in the middle of
[01:18:37] like one of the sessions and um they had
[01:18:40] they were like, you know, they do it in
[01:18:43] their own little way where like you're
[01:18:45] at by that point you're delirious.
[01:18:46] You're like, "Am I still like in the
[01:18:50] military and like in a training program
[01:18:52] or like did I get teleported to some
[01:18:55] [ __ ] like alternate timeline where
[01:18:59] like I'm actually, you know, in this
[01:19:01] situation?"
[01:19:02] >> So, they called pause. They brought the
[01:19:04] psych in. The psych was like, "Yo,
[01:19:05] what's going on, dude?" I was like,
[01:19:07] "What do you mean?" And he was like,
[01:19:09] "We're seeing trauma response from you."
[01:19:12] Uh, and he described, you know, what
[01:19:14] they're seeing. to look for visual cues
[01:19:16] like my fists were balling up and like I
[01:19:18] was you know I was like shifting
[01:19:20] position. I was I had all the physical
[01:19:22] cues that you know I was I was going to
[01:19:24] get physical back to them and usually
[01:19:27] based on their experience it's because
[01:19:28] of some pre-existing trauma in in the
[01:19:31] student.
[01:19:32] So he was like what's going on? Tell me
[01:19:34] about your childhood abuse. Did you
[01:19:37] experience any of that? I was like yep
[01:19:38] lots of physical abuse. Here's how it
[01:19:40] went down. He was like all right. um
[01:19:42] here's what we saw and you know if you
[01:19:46] don't want to continue on with this
[01:19:47] training you tell me and we'll pull you
[01:19:50] out. I was like there's no [ __ ] way
[01:19:52] I'm leaving this training and he's like
[01:19:54] okay well then I need you to do some
[01:19:57] mental exercises to like work yourself
[01:20:01] out here cuz we're not going to change
[01:20:04] how we're doing [ __ ] here for you. So he
[01:20:07] like gave me some exercises to do. Um,
[01:20:11] you know, and from his perspective, it's
[01:20:13] not any anything he hadn't seen before,
[01:20:15] right? Like plenty of people probably
[01:20:16] come through there with physical trauma
[01:20:18] and like childhood abuse [ __ ]
[01:20:21] Um,
[01:20:23] so then, you know, we're in we're in the
[01:20:25] box and doing all that [ __ ] for, you
[01:20:27] know, as long as they have you do it.
[01:20:30] And the the defining moment I think for
[01:20:33] me, like the the moment that made me
[01:20:34] feel like I had really
[01:20:37] become
[01:20:39] like I had really be initiated into
[01:20:42] something that was greater than myself
[01:20:45] was
[01:20:46] um the very end of Seir. Now, I'm not
[01:20:49] going to ruin it for anybody, but
[01:20:52] there's a moment at the end where they
[01:20:55] put you through this ritual and um
[01:21:02] and when they do it, it's a phenomenal
[01:21:05] moment for for people. And um and for
[01:21:08] me, this Indian kid who had always
[01:21:11] looked up to the US military and like
[01:21:13] always wanted to be a part of it, when
[01:21:15] that moment happened for me without
[01:21:17] ruining exactly what it is,
[01:21:21] I w I would have died for the [ __ ]
[01:21:25] stars and stripes at at that moment in
[01:21:27] time. I I I felt like I had been
[01:21:29] initiated into this brotherhood
[01:21:32] that was much greater than myself. And I
[01:21:35] I felt like I was part of the machine,
[01:21:39] you know? It sounds bad. It's like, oh,
[01:21:40] you're part of a [ __ ] machine. Like,
[01:21:42] >> no, I get it. I know. I I get it.
[01:21:45] >> Um, but that that that's the moment I
[01:21:48] felt like I'd finally transcended like
[01:21:50] >> anybody who's been through a tough
[01:21:52] program like that [ __ ] gets it.
[01:21:53] >> Yeah. Um, yeah, I'm sure securing hell
[01:21:58] Week was like very similar similar
[01:22:00] experience for you. Um,
[01:22:03] but that's when I felt like I'd finally
[01:22:05] transcended all this childhood [ __ ]
[01:22:07] baggage that I had, you know, just been
[01:22:10] trailing with me over the years.
[01:22:13] Um,
[01:22:14] >> you felt a sense of pride for the first
[01:22:16] time.
[01:22:17] >> Yeah.
[01:22:18] >> Yeah. I felt like I had
[01:22:20] >> And it was all you.
[01:22:22] >> It was It was all me. I'd finally like
[01:22:25] managed to have agency over my own
[01:22:28] destiny and the way that my life was
[01:22:31] shaping up to be that in that particular
[01:22:33] moment.
[01:22:35] Um,
[01:22:39] let me know if you want a break, dude.
[01:22:40] Like,
[01:22:41] >> you want to take a break?
[01:22:42] >> No, no, I'm good to go.
[01:22:43] >> Where do we go from here?
[01:22:45] >> Um,
[01:22:47] so
[01:22:48] >> so you get done with Seir.
[01:22:49] >> Yeah, get done with Seir. You haven't
[01:22:50] even learned
[01:22:52] >> I mean [ __ ] job yet.
[01:22:53] >> Yeah.
[01:22:55] >> So to be sent to Seir before everything
[01:22:59] else was abnormal at the time. There was
[01:23:02] only like a few of us that that like the
[01:23:04] schedules lined up for
[01:23:07] um so we the few of us who did go to
[01:23:10] Seir graduated. We go to Defense
[01:23:12] Language Institute in Monterey,
[01:23:13] California. And I was just I was smitten
[01:23:16] dude. Like we land in Monterey. The
[01:23:17] [ __ ] ocean's right there. you know,
[01:23:19] you see DLI up on the hill. And I had
[01:23:22] only read about this place in Tom
[01:23:23] Clansancy novels, you know, when I was a
[01:23:25] kid. I was like, I cannot believe I'm
[01:23:27] here. I like I get to sit here and
[01:23:30] [ __ ] learn Arabic. And um and maybe
[01:23:33] if I learn it good enough, I can take
[01:23:36] the [ __ ] fight back to the dudes who,
[01:23:39] you know, did that thing to us that day
[01:23:42] in September of 2001.
[01:23:45] And uh so we show up to the the Air
[01:23:48] Force training squadron at DLI and we
[01:23:50] feel like [ __ ] Billy badasses, right?
[01:23:52] Because we had just graduated SEIR level
[01:23:54] C. Um we just, you know, we're in
[01:23:57] civilian clothes cuz the SEIR
[01:23:59] instructors were like, "Where are you
[01:24:01] going? Defense language. I don't [ __ ]
[01:24:02] know what that is. Just fly in civilian
[01:24:04] clothes. Like whatever. Like get out of
[01:24:05] here." Um, so we show up, we stand
[01:24:10] outside the the squadron and we're
[01:24:11] trying to figure out like what to do and
[01:24:13] we're we're in our civilian clothes. We
[01:24:15] have all our like [ __ ] all of our sea
[01:24:17] bags, all that [ __ ] And one of the
[01:24:19] training sergeants from inside the
[01:24:21] building like looks out the window and
[01:24:24] you can see him double take. He's like,
[01:24:26] "What the [ __ ] is this [ __ ] cast of
[01:24:29] characters in civilian clothes doing
[01:24:31] here?" And you see him like pop out,
[01:24:34] come outside,
[01:24:36] and he he walks out to us and he's like,
[01:24:40] "What are you doing here? What are you
[01:24:41] doing?" And I was, you know, I felt like
[01:24:45] [ __ ] Billy B. I was like, "We just
[01:24:47] graduated survival school." He's like,
[01:24:48] "I don't give a [ __ ] what you just
[01:24:50] graduated." He's like, "When you report
[01:24:52] into this squadron, you report in in a
[01:24:56] [ __ ] in the [ __ ] uniform of the day
[01:24:58] and you go to the [ __ ]
[01:25:01] uh you go to the senior sergeant's uh
[01:25:04] office and uh you report in like you're
[01:25:07] supposed to. You got [ __ ] 10 minutes
[01:25:09] to get your [ __ ] out of your bags, go
[01:25:12] change into proper uniforms, and be
[01:25:13] standing at attention outside the day
[01:25:15] room inside the squadron." And I was
[01:25:16] like, "Oh god." Okay. Welcome back to
[01:25:18] the real [ __ ] Air Force, I guess.
[01:25:21] So we go change into our uniforms, we go
[01:25:23] report in, and um and then we we get
[01:25:27] essentially get put into purgatory
[01:25:28] waiting for our language language class
[01:25:30] to start. Um and
[01:25:33] you know, as as in everything else in
[01:25:35] the military, it's just like busy work
[01:25:36] to, you know, basically tied people over
[01:25:39] until um their their training program
[01:25:42] starts. So I got put on uh this, you
[01:25:44] know, post grounds duty, which is
[01:25:46] essentially like, you know, you're
[01:25:47] cleaning up the [ __ ] base and [ __ ]
[01:25:49] Um, and the crew that I was working
[01:25:51] with, you know, you you go around the
[01:25:53] base, you're like, you know, picking up
[01:25:55] rocks, you're like raking leaves, all of
[01:25:57] this. It's a very humbling thing to do
[01:25:59] after you felt like, you know, you had
[01:26:01] just graduated from a very serious
[01:26:02] training program uh at Sarava School.
[01:26:06] And one of the dudes, actually, I met
[01:26:08] him many years later um downrange.
[01:26:12] And the situation in which I met him, he
[01:26:14] had he had joined like an inter agency
[01:26:17] partner at the time and I was still
[01:26:19] active duty.
[01:26:21] And so we're like, yo, what are you
[01:26:25] doing here? And we we we weren't in a
[01:26:28] situ situation to say much more to each
[01:26:31] other because of the circumstances, but
[01:26:34] he had worked the wheelbarrow at DLI on
[01:26:38] as part of the post grounds crew and I
[01:26:40] had been working like the rakes and
[01:26:41] [ __ ] So, we see each other down range
[01:26:43] in this [ __ ] shitty situation and I'm
[01:26:45] like, "Webarrow?" He's like, "Rake?" I'm
[01:26:48] like, "Yeah, what's up, man? Good to see
[01:26:50] you. What the [ __ ] are you do? What the
[01:26:52] [ __ ] are you doing out here?"
[01:26:53] >> Um,
[01:26:56] >> so then then we start, you know, 18
[01:26:58] months of of Arabic class. Uh, which was
[01:27:00] interesting because, uh,
[01:27:04] you know, they they teach you the
[01:27:06] language from the ground up. And we had
[01:27:07] a cast of characters in in those
[01:27:10] classes. Like we had dudes that grew up
[01:27:12] in like inner city, you know,
[01:27:14] Shreveport, Louisiana, like you know,
[01:27:16] that were in gangs in LA. You know, just
[01:27:19] a [ __ ] cast of characters, Army,
[01:27:21] Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force, and we
[01:27:23] were just all in the same class
[01:27:24] together. So from very early days, I got
[01:27:27] exposed to the other services and I
[01:27:30] really liked being around the other
[01:27:31] services. Like it was just to see their
[01:27:33] culture and how they did things. I just
[01:27:35] I liked it a lot. like, you know, I
[01:27:37] would talk to Marines about, you know,
[01:27:39] how they would run their training
[01:27:40] squadrons. I would talk to the army guys
[01:27:42] and just like learn about different
[01:27:44] cultures. It felt like I was immersed in
[01:27:46] like,
[01:27:46] >> you know, some international culture
[01:27:49] festival or whatever. And I was just
[01:27:51] learning about all the different ways
[01:27:52] that these people did their stuff. And
[01:27:54] there was one dude in the class, uh, his
[01:27:57] name was, um, I'm going to say his name,
[01:27:58] uh, John Kunzie, cuz he had such an
[01:28:01] impact on me. and he was uh he came from
[01:28:03] Ranger Regiment
[01:28:05] like first or third ranger battalion and
[01:28:08] he was passing through DLI on his way to
[01:28:11] being a SAD. So SAD is spe special
[01:28:14] operations team alpha and it's basically
[01:28:16] the signals intelligence um detachment
[01:28:20] of a special forces ODA essentially. Um,
[01:28:25] so they were going to teach him Arabic,
[01:28:26] um, you know, take him out of Ranger
[01:28:28] Regiment and he was gonna go to a
[01:28:30] special forces group. And like to me, as
[01:28:34] a young, impressionable like airman
[01:28:36] first class, that dude was like the
[01:28:38] pinnacle of, you know, what a
[01:28:40] professional military dude should be.
[01:28:42] His [ __ ] uniform was always squared
[01:28:44] away. He was always in the gym working
[01:28:47] out. He always treated everybody with
[01:28:49] respect. But you could tell there was
[01:28:51] this like edge and hardness about him
[01:28:54] that, you know, he always carried with
[01:28:56] him. He wasn't going to let people [ __ ]
[01:28:57] with him. And uh and it to me it was
[01:29:01] like a very clear differentiator between
[01:29:03] all right, this is this is the type of
[01:29:05] dude that is 100% focused on the mission
[01:29:08] and his people.
[01:29:10] But it very easily could have gone the
[01:29:12] other way where and he was our class
[01:29:13] leader. And it very easily could have
[01:29:15] gone the other way where it could have
[01:29:18] been a dude that was all about his own
[01:29:20] career and checking the [ __ ] you
[01:29:23] know, uh, performance report bullets and
[01:29:26] all that [ __ ] So, I'm fortunate I had
[01:29:29] John to kind of be a person that I could
[01:29:32] look up to and emulate at the time.
[01:29:33] Like, you know, I didn't know [ __ ] at
[01:29:36] the time. So like a dude coming from
[01:29:37] Ranger Regiment was like, you know, I
[01:29:39] looked up to him like he was he was,
[01:29:42] >> you know, God.
[01:29:45] And right around class starting is when
[01:29:48] my dad passed away. And
[01:29:51] >> um
[01:29:53] so we we had started, you know, our we
[01:29:57] had started class. We uh I'd come back
[01:29:59] to the dorm and you by this point I had
[01:30:02] started trading some emails with my with
[01:30:04] my dad. I I I sent him some emails. I
[01:30:08] was like, you know, you're probably
[01:30:10] wondering where I'm at and what I'm up
[01:30:12] to.
[01:30:14] Here's what happened. Join the Air
[01:30:16] Force. Uh I just got done with survival
[01:30:18] school. They're putting me through this,
[01:30:19] you know, language school. I'm going to
[01:30:21] go be uh this I'm going to go be an
[01:30:23] aviator essentially enlisted aviator.
[01:30:27] Um he was like, "That's amazing." Um, he
[01:30:32] never s he I think he stopped short of
[01:30:33] like saying, "I'm proud of you." Because
[01:30:34] I think he wanted to say that to my face
[01:30:36] if I could look back and like give him
[01:30:38] the benefit of the doubt. I think he
[01:30:40] wanted to say that to my face. And he
[01:30:41] said,
[01:30:43] um, you know, it would be great to have
[01:30:46] you over Easter break. So, like, you
[01:30:49] know, I'll get you a plane ticket. Why
[01:30:51] don't you come out? You know, he was
[01:30:53] living in Massachusetts by then. Why
[01:30:54] don't you come out? I'll fly you out.
[01:30:58] Um, be great to see him. I was like,
[01:31:01] "It'd be great to see you, too."
[01:31:04] And
[01:31:06] two weeks before I was supposed to fly
[01:31:08] out to see him, I got a call from a
[01:31:12] detective
[01:31:14] from the local PD saying um he had
[01:31:18] passed away of
[01:31:20] uh myocardial inffection, heart heart
[01:31:21] attack. Uh you know, he'd been fighting
[01:31:23] heart disease his whole life,
[01:31:24] alcoholism, cigarettes, you know, all of
[01:31:26] it. and uh he hadn't reported in to some
[01:31:30] critical work meeting and um so they
[01:31:32] sent the cops to his house and he had
[01:31:34] been dead 4 days um by the time they
[01:31:37] found him. Um
[01:31:41] so I remember getting that phone call
[01:31:43] and it was like
[01:31:47] you know that that was uh that was a
[01:31:50] traumatizing moment for me. Um
[01:31:53] I I was just in shock. I was like what
[01:31:55] the [ __ ] like I was just supposed to go
[01:31:57] see him. Um his last email I I pulled up
[01:32:02] his last email. I was like, "Be great to
[01:32:03] see you." And it was like tax time. He
[01:32:05] was like, "Make sure you do your taxes."
[01:32:08] So then I walk back to class cuz I got
[01:32:10] that phone call during lunch break. I
[01:32:13] walk back to class and I'm just like
[01:32:15] shell shocked and I don't know what to
[01:32:16] do. So I I go to I walk in and John John
[01:32:21] Coons our class leader ranger guy. He's
[01:32:24] like, "Dude, what the [ __ ] is going on?"
[01:32:25] I was like, "I just got a phone call. My
[01:32:27] dad just passed away." And he was like,
[01:32:31] he drops everything. He like gets up.
[01:32:33] He's like, "Follow me."
[01:32:36] He walks me back to the Air Force
[01:32:39] training squadron across the street. And
[01:32:43] you know, John's he's a big [ __ ]
[01:32:45] dude, right? Big just [ __ ] good old
[01:32:49] boy ranger.
[01:32:50] And I I remember him barreling through
[01:32:53] the [ __ ] Air Force training squadron
[01:32:55] hallway just like basically like shoving
[01:32:57] people out of the way like trying to get
[01:32:59] me to the uh the senior dude. And he
[01:33:02] walks me into the senior dude's office
[01:33:04] uh like the training sergeant or
[01:33:05] whatever. And he's like, "Aman C Roman's
[01:33:08] father just passed away. Um what do we
[01:33:10] need to do to get him home?" And
[01:33:14] man, it was it was a small thing, but
[01:33:17] like to me
[01:33:19] for him to do that like
[01:33:22] it it was the most like leadership thing
[01:33:24] I had seen
[01:33:26] in in my life to that point, right? It's
[01:33:28] like to take the time to walk me across
[01:33:32] the street and figure out who the [ __ ]
[01:33:35] the responsible individual was to
[01:33:37] coordinate the flight logistics back
[01:33:39] home and all that [ __ ] Um,
[01:33:42] it it it meant a lot to me and uh
[01:33:46] so we figured out all that [ __ ] and I
[01:33:49] flew home. I you know helped cremate my
[01:33:52] dad. Um
[01:33:54] and then uh and then we just we carried
[01:33:57] on you know um went through language
[01:33:59] school for the next 18 months. Um
[01:34:04] uh and then finally got uh to my first
[01:34:09] duty station where uh you know we had
[01:34:11] talked about it earlier in in this room
[01:34:14] where uh I was a crew member on RC135
[01:34:17] rivet joints essentially. So the RC135
[01:34:20] is uh essentially a cold war era signals
[01:34:23] intelligence platform and it kind of
[01:34:26] looks like on the inside it looks like a
[01:34:27] [ __ ] submarine, right? You got like
[01:34:29] display panels every You got like got
[01:34:32] display panels in front of you. You got
[01:34:33] display panels uh on top of you. Um just
[01:34:37] just all kinds of [ __ ] going on in
[01:34:39] inside that aircraft and it's got like
[01:34:41] 30 people as a crew uh inside that
[01:34:45] thing. Um
[01:34:48] somewhere in there, you know, I you go
[01:34:50] through a thing where like you get your
[01:34:52] aviator wings and um you know, that to
[01:34:55] me was was
[01:34:56] >> Hold on, let's back up for a minute.
[01:34:57] Yeah.
[01:34:58] >> But you just breezed over your dad's
[01:35:00] death.
[01:35:01] >> Yeah.
[01:35:03] >> You hadn't you hadn't seen him since
[01:35:06] you hadn't seen him in how long? You
[01:35:08] hadn't seen him in a couple at least a
[01:35:10] year.
[01:35:11] >> Yeah. I didn't see him seen him in a
[01:35:12] year since he dropped me off at at
[01:35:14] school that day. Yeah.
[01:35:18] And um we had only traded like two
[01:35:21] emails back and forth.
[01:35:23] >> That's it.
[01:35:24] >> That's it. And you know, one thing that
[01:35:26] kills me is
[01:35:28] I try and keep this lesson in mind to
[01:35:29] this day. Um, I had written a
[01:35:32] handwritten letter to him and
[01:35:36] I I forget what I put in there, but it
[01:35:38] was like a two three page long letter.
[01:35:42] Uh, and I had put I had enclosed a
[01:35:45] picture of myself in dress blues.
[01:35:48] Um,
[01:35:50] and uh, I was, you know, I had put it in
[01:35:53] the mail. I had mailed it out to him.
[01:35:55] This is this is like like a month before
[01:35:57] he passed away. Um, and then it got
[01:36:00] [ __ ] sent back because I got like the
[01:36:03] postage wrong or some [ __ ] by like 8
[01:36:05] cents or whatever, like some stupid
[01:36:07] amount. So, the postal service sent it
[01:36:08] back and I get it. I'm like, "Ah, fuck."
[01:36:11] You know, I got other [ __ ] going on. You
[01:36:13] know, I got training and class and all
[01:36:16] that [ __ ] So, I'm like, "I'll deal with
[01:36:18] this later."
[01:36:21] Never dealt with it. And uh I ne I never
[01:36:25] got the [ __ ] letter to him. So that
[01:36:29] that killed me to for a long time. It
[01:36:32] kills me to this day, you know. Who
[01:36:34] knows? Maybe if he got that [ __ ]
[01:36:35] letter like he would have realized,
[01:36:40] you know, I was good. I was in a good
[01:36:43] place. I was on a good trajectory. And
[01:36:46] you know, maybe that maybe taking away
[01:36:48] that little stress from him about like
[01:36:52] what my situation was
[01:36:55] wouldn't have sent him over the edge. I
[01:36:57] don't know.
[01:36:58] >> It sounds like he knew.
[01:37:01] >> He already knew.
[01:37:05] >> Yeah. I I would like to think so. Um
[01:37:10] >> I mean, you said you thought he was
[01:37:11] waiting to tell you he was proud of you
[01:37:13] to do it in person. Yeah.
[01:37:16] Yeah. I would like to think so. I wish I
[01:37:18] had gotten that [ __ ] letter out
[01:37:19] though, you know? So now, you know, when
[01:37:23] I have [ __ ] to do, like sometimes
[01:37:26] I I get this feeling like, you know, you
[01:37:28] need to send I need to send my mom like
[01:37:30] a text or something. I need to send my
[01:37:32] grandma like a picture of my my kid. And
[01:37:35] like I I don't wait to do it. I just I
[01:37:38] drop what I'm doing and I try and do it
[01:37:39] like right there cuz I don't want that
[01:37:42] kind of [ __ ] to happen again. Um,
[01:37:46] do you still have the letter?
[01:37:48] >> No, I don't have the letter. I don't
[01:37:49] know what happened to it. It just got
[01:37:51] lost in the sauce over the years. Um,
[01:37:54] but that, you know, my dad's death,
[01:37:58] it's a it's a trauma I'm still working
[01:38:00] through today. Um,
[01:38:04] you know, we talked about Tom Sadly
[01:38:05] being on the show and I was watching
[01:38:07] that episode and I was telling you this
[01:38:10] earlier
[01:38:12] listening to Tom talk about, you know,
[01:38:15] Moadishu,
[01:38:18] you know, that dude was troops star
[01:38:20] major at the unit and he's been through
[01:38:24] ever since October 3rd, 1993, he's
[01:38:26] probably been through missions that were
[01:38:28] 10 times more complicated where all
[01:38:29] kinds of other [ __ ] had gone down. But
[01:38:31] that one mission
[01:38:33] seemed to have embedded some kind of
[01:38:36] subconscious trauma that like just
[01:38:38] unfurled over time.
[01:38:40] >> That's where he lives
[01:38:41] >> for him. That's where he lives. And I
[01:38:43] don't know what it is about the human
[01:38:44] psyche, but when you
[01:38:47] drop a trauma grenade like that and you
[01:38:50] let it slow burn, I guess that's how it
[01:38:53] works. It just sits somewhere in there
[01:38:56] and
[01:38:58] it just slow burns over time over many,
[01:39:02] many, many years. And so you can sit
[01:39:04] there
[01:39:06] and you can say, "I I'm good. You know,
[01:39:09] I've dealt with this. I'm I'm good.
[01:39:11] Let's move the [ __ ] on." Um,
[01:39:15] you really don't move the [ __ ] on.
[01:39:19] many years later. Um,
[01:39:21] >> what would you say to your dad
[01:39:24] >> right now?
[01:39:30] >> Um,
[01:39:39] I I think I would say
[01:39:43] I think I proved you wrong. I think
[01:39:48] I think all that [ __ ] that you used to
[01:39:50] say about,
[01:39:53] you know, how I would end up being a
[01:39:56] [ __ ] up somewhere just
[01:39:59] didn't pan out.
[01:40:03] Like, I've
[01:40:05] I've had a pretty good run. and I've got
[01:40:09] I've got two sons and a and a
[01:40:11] stepdaughter um that I picked up along
[01:40:15] the way and they're pretty they're
[01:40:17] pretty amazing.
[01:40:20] Um
[01:40:22] I I think I would also say I wish you
[01:40:24] had gone about things differently. I I
[01:40:28] wish you had found a different way to
[01:40:30] fight your demons.
[01:40:33] Um, you know, over the years I I I've
[01:40:36] started to build some empathy for him.
[01:40:38] He was just dealing with all the [ __ ]
[01:40:40] that we were talking about earlier, loss
[01:40:42] of identity,
[01:40:44] figuring out how to build a connection
[01:40:46] with his son that he hadn't seen in a
[01:40:48] while.
[01:40:50] And um, you know, he only has a certain
[01:40:52] set of tools that he has from his
[01:40:55] upbringing and all that [ __ ] to deal
[01:40:57] with those problems. And when you run
[01:41:00] out of those tools and they aren't
[01:41:01] working, well, you just you lash out.
[01:41:03] You know, you go to the bottle,
[01:41:05] you go to the cigarettes, you let the
[01:41:08] anger get a hold of you. And that's what
[01:41:10] he did.
[01:41:13] Those are the two things I would say.
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[01:42:50] Man, I just want to ask
[01:42:52] >> Yeah.
[01:42:53] >> I mean,
[01:42:56] I'm really hesitant to do this because I
[01:42:58] don't I don't like interjecting my own
[01:43:01] [ __ ] but
[01:43:03] there's a there's a handful of parallels
[01:43:06] that that we have, you know, growing up.
[01:43:08] I didn't grow up in extreme poverty, and
[01:43:10] it wasn't nearly as abusive as what it
[01:43:13] sounds like yours was, but I got the
[01:43:15] belt, I got the fist, I got the hand, I
[01:43:18] got the foot. [ __ ] got it all. Yep.
[01:43:21] >> And um and I also got the you're a piece
[01:43:25] of [ __ ] I'm not paying for your school.
[01:43:27] I'm not doing this. I'm not doing that.
[01:43:30] And my brother and sister were always,
[01:43:32] you know, younger brother and sister
[01:43:34] were always they were good. And uh
[01:43:41] you know, but at the end I think that
[01:43:42] [ __ ] motivated me. Well, I don't
[01:43:44] think it motivated me. I know it [ __ ]
[01:43:47] motivated me. And so, you know,
[01:43:53] do you think maybe some of that stuff
[01:43:56] that your dad dished out to you may have
[01:43:58] been a gift in the long run?
[01:43:59] >> Dude, it lit a [ __ ] fire inside me
[01:44:02] that burns to this day.
[01:44:05] >> Yeah, me too.
[01:44:11] >> Double-edged sword.
[01:44:13] >> Yeah, man. Because who's to say how
[01:44:15] would I would would have turned out if
[01:44:16] you know I had a
[01:44:19] perfect home life and childhood and all
[01:44:22] that [ __ ] were you? You know
[01:44:25] >> could have been a could have been a gang
[01:44:26] banger in Southern California.
[01:44:28] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[01:44:31] >> It's [ __ ] wild thinking about that
[01:44:33] [ __ ] isn't it?
[01:44:36] >> Yeah.
[01:44:37] >> If you didn't have the drive to make
[01:44:38] your dad proud and to prove him wrong,
[01:44:40] >> you probably wouldn't be sitting here,
[01:44:42] >> dude. And there's so many guys that have
[01:44:44] similar stories, you know, like I was
[01:44:45] watching um you know Jay uh SAS guy.
[01:44:50] >> Yeah.
[01:44:50] >> And um you know, he talks about the
[01:44:52] moment on the beach with his dad where
[01:44:54] he's like, "You're never going to be a
[01:44:56] [ __ ] Royal Marine, you know, and that
[01:44:58] that [ __ ]
[01:45:00] >> lit the fuse, you know."
[01:45:01] >> Yeah.
[01:45:02] >> Probably similar moment for you.
[01:45:04] Something lit the fuse. And for me, it
[01:45:06] was
[01:45:07] I don't know if it was any particular
[01:45:09] moment, but it was definitely his death.
[01:45:13] was like,
[01:45:16] I didn't get to show him
[01:45:20] in life what I could do. So, I'm going
[01:45:22] to [ __ ] show him in death and maybe
[01:45:26] he will be up there looking down and
[01:45:29] see.
[01:45:34] I was climbing Mount Reineer many years
[01:45:37] ago with some buddies and we were going
[01:45:40] up a particularly steep route and I was
[01:45:44] pretty gassed by the time we got, you
[01:45:46] know, high up and um
[01:45:50] we're near the summit and uh but we
[01:45:53] still had like 45 minutes or so to go
[01:45:55] and just like [ __ ] trudging through
[01:45:58] the through the glacier,
[01:46:01] gassing um you know cuz I
[01:46:05] I was into CrossFit at the time, like my
[01:46:07] endurance work wasn't wasn't great. And
[01:46:10] um I was like, I don't know if I can
[01:46:12] [ __ ] do this, man. Uh and so I was,
[01:46:15] you know, I was probably a couple
[01:46:17] minutes away from calling out to the
[01:46:19] rest of the guys on the rope team and
[01:46:21] being like,
[01:46:22] I can't breathe. Like, I we might need
[01:46:25] to [ __ ] go down. And
[01:46:30] I remember feeling that. And then I
[01:46:33] remember feeling
[01:46:41] [ __ ] told myself not to not to do
[01:46:45] this. Um,
[01:46:46] >> it's all good, man.
[01:46:47] >> I remember feeling my dad's arm on my
[01:46:51] back.
[01:46:53] >> Holy [ __ ]
[01:46:57] Going like this across my mountaineering
[01:47:00] pack. and helping me up the [ __ ] last
[01:47:05] 45 minutes up Mount Reineer.
[01:47:11] That's when I knew like, yeah, he is
[01:47:13] [ __ ] up there and he's watching
[01:47:16] everything I do. So, you know,
[01:47:19] I try and try and live up to
[01:47:22] the
[01:47:25] I guess burden of
[01:47:29] being not being what he wanted me to be,
[01:47:31] but like
[01:47:34] I just want to be a good person, you
[01:47:35] know, someone someone that's worthy of
[01:47:37] him being proud of. Um, certainly I
[01:47:41] haven't [ __ ] gotten it right all the
[01:47:43] time. Um,
[01:47:46] but I try.
[01:47:49] Yeah,
[01:47:53] that's [ __ ] awesome, dude.
[01:47:58] Yeah, that was that was the first time I
[01:48:00] remember thinking, "Oh [ __ ] like
[01:48:04] there's something else. There's
[01:48:06] something else." And they can reach out
[01:48:08] and touch us if they want.
[01:48:12] And you could say, this goes back to our
[01:48:13] previous conversation. You could say,
[01:48:15] "Oh, it's just some [ __ ] neurons in
[01:48:16] your brain like that, you know,
[01:48:18] simulated
[01:48:20] >> that that gave that gave you the feeling
[01:48:23] that you wanted. You wanted to feel your
[01:48:25] dad helping you up the top of Mount
[01:48:27] Reineer,
[01:48:30] maybe."
[01:48:32] I don't I don't think that's true,
[01:48:33] though.
[01:48:34] >> I don't either.
[01:48:38] I've had way too many things like that
[01:48:40] happen to me to think that that's just
[01:48:42] some [ __ ] simulation or [ __ ]
[01:48:44] whatever. No way, man. No [ __ ] way.
[01:48:51] There was um
[01:48:54] buddy of mine
[01:48:56] passed away uh a few years ago and uh
[01:49:01] he he was the type of dude that you talk
[01:49:05] to the guy and you just you felt like
[01:49:07] you've known him for years. He's that
[01:49:08] kind of guy. Had that kind of warmth
[01:49:10] about him. His name was Ethan Swyler and
[01:49:15] um
[01:49:19] I saw him after I had left the military
[01:49:22] at a beach party at uh Fort Walton Beach
[01:49:25] like right outside Herbert Herbler Field
[01:49:28] and um we were at a buddy's retirement
[01:49:31] and he hadn't seen me in a while, right?
[01:49:33] I'd been a civilian at this point. I was
[01:49:34] a Palunteer um you know I was jet
[01:49:36] setting around [ __ ] living the tech
[01:49:38] bro life, you know? So, I had some
[01:49:43] I wasn't as scruffy as I look today,
[01:49:45] basically. And
[01:49:47] um I had some like nice clothes on and
[01:49:50] [ __ ] I had like some nice sunglasses
[01:49:52] on. And he looks at me, he's like,
[01:49:53] "Well, look at you, [ __ ] Mr.
[01:49:55] Hollywood."
[01:49:57] And uh then we just, you know, we
[01:49:59] bullshitted and and hung out. And um a
[01:50:02] couple years after that, I get the call,
[01:50:04] hey, Ethan
[01:50:06] Ethan passed away. I go to his funeral
[01:50:10] in Salt Lake City. We put him in the
[01:50:13] ground at in this beautiful
[01:50:16] uh cemetery at the base of the Wasach
[01:50:19] Mountains outside of Salt Lake City.
[01:50:22] And uh and I drive back to to California
[01:50:25] and I'm driving through Lake Tahoe and
[01:50:28] um I stop at a bar
[01:50:31] um
[01:50:33] and there's no one in this bar. It's a
[01:50:34] [ __ ] like Tuesday night or some [ __ ]
[01:50:38] There's no cars outside. It's a [ __ ]
[01:50:41] desolate bar in South Lake Tahoe. No
[01:50:43] one's there. I walk in, there's one
[01:50:45] bartender on the other side of the bar,
[01:50:48] and he's leaning over and he's uh like
[01:50:51] cleaning glasses.
[01:50:55] Zero other people in the bar, just me,
[01:50:58] bartender. I walk in, he's cleaning his
[01:51:01] glasses,
[01:51:03] and then he stops and he looks up and he
[01:51:07] looks up. He goes, "Hello, Mr.
[01:51:10] Hollywood." And he looks back down,
[01:51:12] keeps cleaning his glasses. Holy [ __ ]
[01:51:15] And then he looks up at me, who had just
[01:51:17] walked in the door, and then he goes,
[01:51:19] "Hey, can I help you?"
[01:51:22] And I'm like, "What the f what the [ __ ]
[01:51:25] just happened here?" It was like
[01:51:28] It was like someone
[01:51:30] took control of that dude's body for
[01:51:32] like 5 seconds,
[01:51:35] sent a message, and then let go.
[01:51:40] So
[01:51:42] yeah, wild [ __ ]
[01:51:43] >> I had a guy read my [ __ ] mind.
[01:51:47] >> What do you How did that go down?
[01:51:54] >> I was in Sedona.
[01:51:56] going through like a really when you
[01:51:59] listen to the show at least somewhat.
[01:52:00] You we talked about some of the topics
[01:52:03] that we cover, you know, breakfast and
[01:52:06] >> I mean it's just it gets to me some
[01:52:09] especially like the [ __ ] with kids.
[01:52:11] >> Mhm.
[01:52:11] >> Yep.
[01:52:13] >> And uh
[01:52:15] long story short, but uh I was just in a
[01:52:20] really [ __ ] bad place. Like a really
[01:52:22] bad place. And um I was telling you
[01:52:25] about my best friend Gabe up there at
[01:52:28] the
[01:52:28] >> the rounds from Red Wings and
[01:52:31] like I've always felt like him around
[01:52:33] me,
[01:52:34] >> you know, and uh I could give you
[01:52:36] example after example after example of
[01:52:39] it. But anyways, the basically I I I
[01:52:45] just done this big episode and uh it was
[01:52:48] Ryan Montgomery. had told you about it.
[01:52:51] And um I felt like like we were like the
[01:52:54] only ones that gave a [ __ ] and and there
[01:52:56] was a lot of other stuff going on with
[01:52:58] like
[01:53:00] you know gender identity and kids and
[01:53:02] like
[01:53:04] a lot of [ __ ] at that time and uh went
[01:53:07] on this hike and I felt I I just felt
[01:53:10] like why do you give a [ __ ] Why do you
[01:53:12] care? Like nobody else seems to give a
[01:53:14] [ __ ] Why do you [ __ ] give a [ __ ]
[01:53:17] And uh it felt like I was like
[01:53:20] surrendering my soul to Satan, evil,
[01:53:24] like like convincing myself like just
[01:53:26] let it go, Sean. Like who gives a [ __ ]
[01:53:29] >> 8-year-olds are getting their genitals
[01:53:31] cut off. It's how the world is.
[01:53:33] Everybody else is worth this [ __ ] Why
[01:53:35] aren't you? And um
[01:53:39] and I but it was like this internal
[01:53:41] battle in my head. I walk through this
[01:53:42] [ __ ] gate and this gate guard like
[01:53:46] looks at me in the eyes and [ __ ]
[01:53:49] tells me everything I'm thinking like
[01:53:53] from front to back.
[01:53:55] Scared the [ __ ] out of me. And then that
[01:53:58] triggered a whole sequence of
[01:54:00] other events. And um that there were so
[01:54:04] many it wasn't and my wife saw it hell
[01:54:07] happened and uh
[01:54:11] so I I always kind of considered it
[01:54:14] like an angel like talk to me like
[01:54:17] >> Mhm.
[01:54:18] >> I know what's going on in your head and
[01:54:19] I'm going to tell you what's going on in
[01:54:21] your head and I'm going to tell you you
[01:54:22] don't need to worry about that [ __ ]
[01:54:23] That's not your [ __ ] problem. Mhm.
[01:54:26] >> which is what he said after he
[01:54:30] and uh and my another really good friend
[01:54:34] of mine had died uh who was a seal who
[01:54:37] lived here in Franklin. He was like my
[01:54:38] only like real friend here at the time
[01:54:42] and uh we had gotten close fast cuz he
[01:54:46] had a very successful business. I have a
[01:54:49] successful business. He doesn't need
[01:54:50] [ __ ] from me. I don't need [ __ ] You
[01:54:52] know what I'm talking about. They don't
[01:54:54] know. Hey, could you
[01:54:56] >> any of that? Hey, I hadn't talked to you
[01:54:58] in 25 [ __ ] years, but hey, how you
[01:55:01] doing?
[01:55:01] >> It's like a mutual non non- neediness.
[01:55:03] >> Yeah. Yeah. Just
[01:55:06] >> legitimate friends, you know, and um
[01:55:09] >> and uh his So, me and my wife go back to
[01:55:13] this room. We're having this chat and um
[01:55:16] >> I'm like, I think that was God talking
[01:55:17] to me. What the [ __ ] is going on? There
[01:55:20] was this guy that looked identical to
[01:55:22] Gabe at the resort. Small exclusive
[01:55:25] resort. Like guy was everywhere I was
[01:55:28] at. If I was in town, he was in town.
[01:55:30] Oh, everywhere. Turns out this is the
[01:55:32] last night. He winds up. He's staying in
[01:55:34] the We're in these bungalows. It's like
[01:55:38] a duplex. He was on the other side the
[01:55:41] whole [ __ ] time. So I I walk back
[01:55:43] from getting my mind read by the gate
[01:55:45] guard. I find out this dude that looks
[01:55:48] identical to Gabe who's been around all
[01:55:50] [ __ ] week everywhere. Same
[01:55:53] restaurants, same hikes, pool,
[01:55:55] everything.
[01:55:57] Winds up being the guy that's right
[01:55:59] across the way going to my bungalow
[01:56:02] talking to Katie, my wife, about this
[01:56:04] [ __ ] Phone dings. I'm like having a
[01:56:09] breakdown cuz I'm like this is [ __ ]
[01:56:11] crazy. Like what the [ __ ] by somebody
[01:56:13] just read my brain. What's happening?
[01:56:19] >> We get done with the conversation. I
[01:56:21] clean myself up. I look at the phone and
[01:56:24] uh it was his daughter who I'd never met
[01:56:27] who must have gone through his phone and
[01:56:29] got her got my number and said that uh
[01:56:32] she had just walked into her dad's gun
[01:56:34] room and basically that he had spoke to
[01:56:37] her and told her to reach out to me
[01:56:39] because I was his new best friend and I
[01:56:42] knew a side of him that
[01:56:45] nobody else knew and he wanted her to
[01:56:47] talk to me cuz all that [ __ ] happened in
[01:56:50] like 5 minutes.
[01:56:51] >> Yeah.
[01:56:53] wild.
[01:56:54] For people who think that
[01:56:58] this reality that we inhabit is
[01:57:00] completely material and all this [ __ ]
[01:57:03] that we're talking about
[01:57:05] is just a byproduct of random neurons
[01:57:09] firing in our head.
[01:57:12] It's a pretty sad way to look at look at
[01:57:14] the world. I mean, I don't know how you
[01:57:17] explain like what you just said. The
[01:57:19] gate guard reading your mind,
[01:57:21] >> dude. that I could go with so much more
[01:57:23] detail that makes it more real.
[01:57:25] >> Yeah.
[01:57:26] >> But I mean, and there's just so many
[01:57:28] [ __ ] things that have happened. I
[01:57:29] can't even remember them all. I used to
[01:57:31] want to write them all down to like
[01:57:33] >> remind myself like, "Yeah, Sean, there's
[01:57:35] something more after this." Yeah. You
[01:57:37] know, and uh but there's there's just so
[01:57:39] many.
[01:57:40] >> I don't need to prove it to myself.
[01:57:42] >> Yeah. You know,
[01:57:43] >> same. I I went through that inflection
[01:57:45] point, too. You know, like something
[01:57:46] would happen and then I'd be like,
[01:57:47] "Well, I just need I need one more piece
[01:57:50] of of evidence that that [ __ ] is real."
[01:57:53] And then at a certain point,
[01:57:55] the [ __ ] started happening so often that
[01:57:58] you're like,
[01:58:00] "Okay, I surrender."
[01:58:02] >> Yeah.
[01:58:03] >> You just got to be open to it.
[01:58:04] >> Yeah.
[01:58:04] >> Just be paying attention.
[01:58:06] >> Yeah.
[01:58:06] >> Paying attention to everything but the
[01:58:09] You know what I mean? look your [ __ ]
[01:58:11] business or your your problems or like
[01:58:13] you just have to be open when it happens
[01:58:16] all the time.
[01:58:17] >> All the time.
[01:58:19] >> You know, we talked about psychedelics
[01:58:21] at breakfast, too. I mean, have you had
[01:58:22] any
[01:58:27] if you found any answers? You know, I
[01:58:29] think
[01:58:32] I think there's a lot about the universe
[01:58:33] that we don't know. Um,
[01:58:37] I've had buddies that have done
[01:58:40] psychedelics and every single time the
[01:58:44] report back from the field is that
[01:58:50] those things
[01:58:53] took a randomized series of puzzle
[01:58:56] pieces in their minds
[01:58:59] and then snap them into place and just
[01:59:04] phase blocked them into a good path and
[01:59:08] a good trajectory. Of course, you know,
[01:59:11] we are mechanically inclined to hear
[01:59:14] about those things and immediately
[01:59:16] dismiss them. It's like, uh, it's like
[01:59:17] crack pottery. It's like,
[01:59:21] >> you know, it's got a stigma associated
[01:59:23] with it. I think the stigma is
[01:59:24] decreasing over time because of all the
[01:59:27] research that they're doing with uh PTSD
[01:59:30] and veterans. And I think I think
[01:59:33] they're doing it with team guys, right?
[01:59:34] Yeah. TVIs
[01:59:36] industry.
[01:59:37] >> Yeah. And they've done it they've done
[01:59:39] it with like uh terminal cancer
[01:59:42] patients.
[01:59:44] >> And
[01:59:46] I mean the statistics are off the
[01:59:47] charts. It's like
[01:59:50] a near instantaneous like lack of fear
[01:59:53] of death, you know, um because they know
[01:59:58] something is on the other side. It's
[02:00:00] always unclear what, you know. I think
[02:00:02] whatever whatever it is,
[02:00:06] it doesn't want to be fully seen or
[02:00:09] described or whatever. It's meant to be
[02:00:11] shrouded in
[02:00:13] some kind of mystery
[02:00:16] and it manifests itself to all of us in
[02:00:19] individual ways. you with a gate guard
[02:00:21] that was reading your mind,
[02:00:24] me with Ethan
[02:00:27] taking control of some [ __ ] random
[02:00:29] bartender and uh and calling me a
[02:00:32] nickname that no nobody [ __ ] else
[02:00:35] would have known. Like you look at me,
[02:00:37] I'm the furthest from a [ __ ] Mr.
[02:00:39] Hollywood that you could ever get,
[02:00:41] right? But like that [ __ ] happened. Um,
[02:00:46] yeah. I think there's a lot going on
[02:00:48] that
[02:00:51] we don't we don't know about, but you
[02:00:52] have to stay curious, I think.
[02:00:54] >> What do you think it is?
[02:00:57] >> What do you believe happens when you
[02:00:58] die?
[02:01:03] Um
[02:01:09] I
[02:01:12] think what happens is
[02:01:16] you
[02:01:19] I don't know is is the bottom line but
[02:01:24] what I think is going on is
[02:01:29] our reality ity might exist as a series
[02:01:33] of fractals and layers within that
[02:01:38] fractal structure. And so let's take a
[02:01:42] very simple example, right? I can spin
[02:01:44] up a bunch of AIs and have them all be
[02:01:46] communicating on a website,
[02:01:48] but that is a condescension of
[02:01:54] what it is like to be a human. It's not
[02:01:57] a fully human experience, but it's one
[02:01:59] that is sort of like it.
[02:02:03] The ancient uh hermetic thinkers had a
[02:02:08] saying, as above so below. And what it
[02:02:10] meant was this like fractal structure
[02:02:12] that we're talking about. So perhaps at
[02:02:15] higher layers of reality
[02:02:18] um
[02:02:20] those layers exist and we have
[02:02:24] experiences in them in ways that are but
[02:02:27] we can't quite we don't have the
[02:02:29] language for but we can intuit it in
[02:02:31] some way you know and those layers leak
[02:02:34] down to us
[02:02:36] through these experiences and
[02:02:38] synchronicities and uh let's call them
[02:02:40] for what they are miracles that that
[02:02:42] happen to us in daily life. But it's
[02:02:45] difficult for us to have an
[02:02:47] understanding. We always want to like do
[02:02:49] the the scientific human thing of like,
[02:02:51] all right, well, how is that structured?
[02:02:53] Like what what does that look like? Like
[02:02:54] what's going on up there? You know, we
[02:02:57] don't know. I don't know.
[02:03:00] I um I was reading a book one time and
[02:03:04] it made the analogy of
[02:03:07] humans going through existence is sort
[02:03:11] of like existence on this plane of
[02:03:13] reality that we uh that we inhabit
[02:03:20] is sort of like imagine cubes floating
[02:03:24] in space
[02:03:26] and they're transiting through a thin
[02:03:30] layer of film and that thin layer is
[02:03:35] two-dimensional, right? So, you've got
[02:03:36] these three-dimensional things
[02:03:38] transiting through a two-dimensional
[02:03:40] environment. And as they're
[02:03:42] transitioning through,
[02:03:46] they don't realize that they're cubes,
[02:03:50] right? They don't even realize that
[02:03:51] they're squares in this as they're
[02:03:54] transiting through this
[02:03:58] uh lower dimensional plane, let's say.
[02:04:01] So, as they're transiting, they're all
[02:04:03] [ __ ] up, right? Like maybe they're
[02:04:06] they have like a point that's like their
[02:04:09] rotation's all off like
[02:04:10] >> So, you're saying planes,
[02:04:14] >> right?
[02:04:14] >> Yeah. Planes of POS maybe realities.
[02:04:17] >> Yeah. And one of them
[02:04:17] >> the cube is rising. cube is rising
[02:04:20] through each plane. Yeah.
[02:04:22] >> But it as it's in in the plane, it
[02:04:25] doesn't really understand its true
[02:04:28] structure, right? It doesn't understand
[02:04:30] its true self. All it knows, all it's
[02:04:32] aware of is
[02:04:35] the shape that it makes as it transits
[02:04:37] through that plane. So, if you have a
[02:04:38] cube that's all [ __ ] up in orientation
[02:04:40] as it's transiting through that
[02:04:42] two-dimensional plane, it looks like it
[02:04:44] looks jacked up, right? It's like maybe
[02:04:47] a corner sticking. Maybe it's like a
[02:04:49] point or maybe it looks like some weird
[02:04:51] tetrogram. I don't [ __ ] know, right?
[02:04:55] But if you square up with the plane,
[02:04:59] then you can get close to the shape that
[02:05:02] you truly are, which is a square that
[02:05:06] represents your true the the cub's true
[02:05:08] form. Right? The square is like the
[02:05:10] closest that you can get, right? as
[02:05:13] you're transiting through that surface.
[02:05:16] Hang with me here. Now,
[02:05:20] maybe
[02:05:22] all these other cubes up here that
[02:05:24] already made it are like looking down
[02:05:27] and they're like, "Well, those guys are
[02:05:28] all jacked up, so let's try and help
[02:05:30] them out a little bit, you know?"
[02:05:34] And maybe it's the case that one of
[02:05:37] those [ __ ] cubes that already made it
[02:05:39] to a very high layer is looking down,
[02:05:45] feels really bad for us, and it's trying
[02:05:48] to get us to [ __ ] understand the
[02:05:50] geometry of all this [ __ ] right?
[02:05:52] >> Mhm. And so that cube comes down,
[02:05:58] intersects with this lower dimensional
[02:06:00] plane
[02:06:02] and begins unfurling itself
[02:06:06] into its lower dimensional form which is
[02:06:11] six cubes
[02:06:13] in or six squares in the shape of a
[02:06:16] cross.
[02:06:19] It had to descend,
[02:06:22] break itself open, and show its true
[02:06:27] form to everybody else in order to get
[02:06:31] them understanding
[02:06:34] what some of this reality is about.
[02:06:38] And it's basically, I think, a hint
[02:06:42] that if we can get our [ __ ] together
[02:06:46] and figure out how to emulate that
[02:06:48] [ __ ] guy,
[02:06:51] then maybe we can
[02:06:54] refold ourselves
[02:06:56] and, you know, measure
[02:06:59] >> ascend ascend into the layers that we're
[02:07:02] that we're supposed to be in.
[02:07:06] Why do you say a cross? Are you a
[02:07:08] Christian?
[02:07:10] >> Um,
[02:07:11] >> or is that something else?
[02:07:13] >> I I believe in I believe in Jesus
[02:07:16] Christ. I I think the resurrection was a
[02:07:18] physical event. Um, I think it
[02:07:23] I think it was trying to point at some
[02:07:26] very deep layers of reality and show us
[02:07:29] something. And what it was trying to
[02:07:31] show us is what I just alluded to with
[02:07:33] this analogy here. I mean, the fact that
[02:07:36] a cube has to break itself into a cross
[02:07:38] in order to tell all the other [ __ ]
[02:07:41] cubes to get your [ __ ] [ __ ] together
[02:07:43] because y'all are not squares transiting
[02:07:46] through this plane of existence. Y'all
[02:07:48] are made of something more. There's
[02:07:49] something more to you.
[02:07:52] But unless you're able to al align
[02:07:54] yourself properly square up with
[02:07:57] reality,
[02:08:00] then you're you're never going to get
[02:08:01] to, you know,
[02:08:02] >> Mhm. the the layers up here.
[02:08:05] >> So, you know, it's easy to say, "Oh,
[02:08:07] it's just a coincidence. What are you
[02:08:08] talking about, dude?" Like, you're just
[02:08:09] talking about crazy [ __ ] Um,
[02:08:12] >> I'm tracking.
[02:08:13] >> But, but there's a synchronicity there,
[02:08:16] right? It's like, why does that analogy
[02:08:19] work?
[02:08:20] >> Why when you extrapolate it to
[02:08:24] Christianity
[02:08:26] that like it kind of makes sense? Like,
[02:08:28] what was he trying to show? He was
[02:08:30] trying to show that we are more than
[02:08:31] these meat sacks that we're in right
[02:08:32] now, right? He's trying to show that if
[02:08:34] we're able to orient our minds and souls
[02:08:39] and bodies and get them working together
[02:08:42] for the good of the people around us,
[02:08:47] then
[02:08:48] we're we're approaching a
[02:08:53] foreign form of ourselves that we don't
[02:08:55] quite understand, but that we know is
[02:08:57] more than what we are today.
[02:09:00] I think it might be a collective
[02:09:03] >> one.
[02:09:04] I'm also a believer.
[02:09:06] >> Yeah.
[02:09:06] >> I mean, and and I I I [ __ ] hate how
[02:09:09] people like, you know, you bring it up
[02:09:11] and people like
[02:09:12] >> whatever, dude. See that piece of art up
[02:09:15] there?
[02:09:16] >> Yeah.
[02:09:16] >> That's how many times the Bible cross
[02:09:18] references itself. It's almost 63,000
[02:09:21] times.
[02:09:21] >> Yeah. I remember seeing that in a
[02:09:23] lecture that Jordan Peterson put on.
[02:09:25] >> Yeah.
[02:09:26] But I mean, I don't know. I don't I want
[02:09:30] to believe that when we go to heaven,
[02:09:33] we're all slapping each other's asses
[02:09:34] and having a good time and just [ __ ]
[02:09:36] doing whatever the hell we want. You
[02:09:38] know what I mean?
[02:09:39] >> But I don't think it's going to be like
[02:09:41] that.
[02:09:43] >> I don't think so either.
[02:09:44] >> I think that
[02:09:47] I think this is a test.
[02:09:50] I think we And this is I get this. This
[02:09:53] is just Sean's internal thinking
[02:09:56] thoughts. I think about this kind of
[02:09:58] stuff all the time. But, you know, I
[02:10:00] think that the ego is the test. The ego
[02:10:02] is what gives you yourself. It's what
[02:10:04] individualizes you. It's what protects
[02:10:06] you. It's it's who you you know, it's
[02:10:09] who you are, right?
[02:10:12] And I mean the when the ego goes away
[02:10:18] and you you have a true ego death,
[02:10:22] it feels like you turn into a
[02:10:24] collective. Yeah.
[02:10:25] >> You know, a a collective maybe a
[02:10:27] collective consciousness. Maybe it's
[02:10:29] love. Maybe it's,
[02:10:30] >> you know, something like that. But
[02:10:32] >> the droplet realizes it's part of an
[02:10:34] ocean.
[02:10:35] >> Yeah. That's kind of what I'm getting
[02:10:37] at. And you know, as
[02:10:43] scary as that sounds to lose your sense
[02:10:46] of self and turn into some type of a
[02:10:48] collective, I I think that's the true
[02:10:50] test. I think the only thing there is is
[02:10:52] there is good and there is evil.
[02:10:54] >> And you're on one of those sides,
[02:10:57] whether you want to be or not.
[02:11:01] >> Yeah.
[02:11:01] >> And you either go into the collective of
[02:11:04] good or the collective of evil. And when
[02:11:08] I think of good and evil in the world, I
[02:11:10] think of it as
[02:11:15] like a marble that has oil and water in
[02:11:19] it.
[02:11:20] >> Yeah.
[02:11:20] >> And you know, and oil and water never
[02:11:22] mix. They just
[02:11:24] >> Yeah.
[02:11:24] >> You know, they just they just or like
[02:11:26] the if you looked at the Earth for, you
[02:11:28] know, a time lapse of millions of years,
[02:11:32] you'd see the oceans changing with land
[02:11:34] all the time, but they never really mix.
[02:11:36] You know what I And it's just one
[02:11:37] overtaking the other for eternity.
[02:11:41] >> Yep.
[02:11:42] >> That's kind of what I That's kind of
[02:11:44] what I think. I think it would be a
[02:11:46] collective.
[02:11:46] >> I think I think you're close to the
[02:11:48] truth, man. I I think um I think
[02:11:51] infinity only has two cardinal
[02:11:52] directions, good and evil. For whatever
[02:11:54] reason, that seems to be the way it's
[02:11:56] structured.
[02:11:59] Anything you can do as a human can be
[02:12:01] distilled down to
[02:12:04] are you trending that way or that way.
[02:12:06] Mhm.
[02:12:06] >> That's it. Um,
[02:12:10] so I don't know. I I don't I don't have
[02:12:12] all the answers certainly, but I also
[02:12:16] don't think that we live in a purely
[02:12:18] materialistic reality. And I also don't
[02:12:20] think that even though I believe in the
[02:12:22] resurrection and uh Christ, I don't
[02:12:26] believe that that is also the whole
[02:12:29] story. There seems to be more to the
[02:12:31] story
[02:12:32] >> and I think about that a lot.
[02:12:37] >> What do you mean? What do you think?
[02:12:38] What more?
[02:12:41] >> I'm just curious what your thoughts are.
[02:12:46] >> Yeah.
[02:12:49] I I think if you tie together the themes
[02:12:52] from across
[02:12:55] different
[02:12:58] religious or mystical traditions over
[02:13:00] many thousands of years,
[02:13:05] I told people I wasn't going to go here
[02:13:07] when I came on this podcast. If you also
[02:13:09] tie together
[02:13:12] abductee reports from
[02:13:15] UAP encounters and all that [ __ ]
[02:13:17] paranormal encounters and so on,
[02:13:23] at some level they all form a remarkably
[02:13:26] coherent narrative which is
[02:13:31] we seem to all come from some kind of
[02:13:35] superconsciousness
[02:13:37] that we all eventually return to
[02:13:41] the things that happened to us down here
[02:13:43] seem to be engineered
[02:13:46] in order to
[02:13:50] teach us something.
[02:13:53] And what I think it's so it's I guess
[02:13:56] there's more to story than
[02:13:59] mailing it in by going to mass every
[02:14:02] Sunday. Like
[02:14:05] I think it's a lot. I I think I think
[02:14:08] what he was actually trying to say
[02:14:09] Christ is
[02:14:12] you need to be paying attention to
[02:14:15] yourself
[02:14:17] and
[02:14:19] how you deal with things every
[02:14:21] microscond of every day of your life.
[02:14:24] And it is that kind of sustained
[02:14:26] attention
[02:14:29] that is going to allow you to be
[02:14:31] productive or to assist in life
[02:14:37] consciousness
[02:14:40] going the other way
[02:14:44] towards the light
[02:14:46] rather than towards the dark I think. So
[02:14:49] there I mean there's a technical word
[02:14:50] for this. It's like ne neg entropy
[02:14:52] right? It's like the universe defaults
[02:14:54] towards entropy. It might default
[02:14:56] towards evil. And it is only when enough
[02:14:59] people learn to
[02:15:03] figure their [ __ ] out
[02:15:07] that they can turn into a collective
[02:15:10] negotropic
[02:15:12] forcing function to steer
[02:15:15] whatever our local collective
[02:15:18] consciousness is on this planet to
[02:15:20] somewhere good.
[02:15:22] Um,
[02:15:24] >> this is what I'm talking about with the
[02:15:25] marble.
[02:15:26] >> Yeah,
[02:15:27] >> I think I think we're on the same page.
[02:15:29] I mean, you know, if you look at, you
[02:15:32] know, Christ's teachings, it's all about
[02:15:34] love,
[02:15:35] >> acceptance,
[02:15:36] >> things like that
[02:15:38] >> which form a better collective, you
[02:15:40] know, of society. And so if you if you
[02:15:45] if you pump good into the world, that's
[02:15:48] going to create good.
[02:15:49] >> Yeah.
[02:15:50] >> And that's going to create more
[02:15:54] more surface area of good in the marble
[02:15:57] which will begin to overtake the evil.
[02:15:59] And if you pump in bad, evil, lies, [ __ ]
[02:16:04] like that,
[02:16:04] >> y
[02:16:05] >> then then the dark side, you know,
[02:16:07] multiplies. Yep.
[02:16:09] >> More spots start to pop up and it
[02:16:10] becomes it can start to overtake good. I
[02:16:13] agree. I think that's how it works.
[02:16:15] >> And I and I think I think it's additive,
[02:16:17] right? It it it's all dependent on,
[02:16:21] you know, Jordan Peterson says, you
[02:16:23] know, don't don't change the world
[02:16:24] before you can clean your [ __ ] room,
[02:16:26] right? And the reason he says that is
[02:16:27] because individual actions at scale
[02:16:31] produce change at scale. A lot of people
[02:16:34] try and skip to the last part and just
[02:16:35] produce change at scale. that doesn't
[02:16:38] really work. That's how you get
[02:16:39] authoritarian governments. It's how you
[02:16:40] get, you know, all the bad [ __ ] You
[02:16:42] It's how you get forms of control.
[02:16:46] But if enough of us individually are
[02:16:49] able to
[02:16:51] get our [ __ ] together, I think something
[02:16:53] magical could happen. I don't know what
[02:16:55] that is, but I think the Bible is trying
[02:16:59] to hint at
[02:17:01] the fact that that's what we're [ __ ]
[02:17:03] here to do. You know what reaction
[02:17:06] wheels are on a spaceship?
[02:17:07] >> No.
[02:17:09] >> Uh they're basically a mechanical way of
[02:17:12] producing um movement along some axis
[02:17:16] without using thrusters. And so you can
[02:17:18] spin this reaction wheel internally
[02:17:21] inside like a little let's say a cubat
[02:17:24] or whatever and you can turn the
[02:17:26] satellite to orient it to whatever like
[02:17:28] maybe you need to turn it so that its
[02:17:30] solar panels can see the sun or
[02:17:31] whatever. But the point is you don't
[02:17:33] have to use thrusters. And so
[02:17:35] sometimes you might have multiple
[02:17:37] reaction wheels, right? You might have
[02:17:38] three. And so that's getting the the
[02:17:41] ship oriented and having like it's a
[02:17:45] it's a mechanism to move the damn thing
[02:17:47] along some orientation.
[02:17:51] It might just be the case that whatever
[02:17:54] it is we're doing down here
[02:17:56] is
[02:17:58] we're learning how to spin our own souls
[02:18:01] reaction wheels along the proper
[02:18:04] orientations so that we're all pointed
[02:18:06] the right [ __ ] way. And when one of
[02:18:08] us can do that, that's great. When many
[02:18:11] of us can do that,
[02:18:14] who the [ __ ] knows what can happen?
[02:18:15] >> Yeah.
[02:18:18] Well, this is a conversation I wasn't
[02:18:20] planning on having.
[02:18:21] >> I I don't I don't know how we got here.
[02:18:25] So,
[02:18:25] >> we got here talking about your dad.
[02:18:27] >> Yeah. Yeah. Talking about my dad. Um
[02:18:32] Yeah. It was It was a big loss. Um
[02:18:40] I I'm sure we'll, you know, I'm sure
[02:18:42] it'll come back uh in in other aspects
[02:18:44] of this conversation. But um one of the
[02:18:48] things that I tried to do move to try
[02:18:50] and move on from that loss is just to be
[02:18:52] the [ __ ] best that I could be at
[02:18:54] whatever it was the [ __ ] I was doing.
[02:18:58] If I was going to sit in a goddamn tin
[02:19:00] tin can in the sky and fly racetrack
[02:19:02] patterns over Afghanistan,
[02:19:05] I was going to [ __ ] do that to the
[02:19:07] best of my ability. And that's what I
[02:19:10] ended up doing the first few years out
[02:19:12] of language school. Um
[02:19:16] they uh so being an enlisted aviator in
[02:19:18] the Air Force is um there's actually a
[02:19:22] very small percentage of people that are
[02:19:23] enlisted.
[02:19:25] >> Yeah. No [ __ ]
[02:19:26] >> Yeah.
[02:19:28] like the vast majority of people in the
[02:19:30] Air Force are they don't fly, they don't
[02:19:33] they don't they don't do it. Um, and
[02:19:36] generally,
[02:19:38] you know, a a lot of people think about
[02:19:41] officers and pilots as the guys that are
[02:19:44] are the aviators. So, there's there's
[02:19:46] like a special kind of class hierarchy
[02:19:49] in the Air Force. And you know, at the
[02:19:52] very top are your [ __ ] uh special
[02:19:54] warfare dudes, PJ, CCTS, rightfully so.
[02:19:58] Right below that are your aviators,
[02:20:01] enlisted officers, and so on. So for me
[02:20:03] to get my [ __ ] enlisted aviator
[02:20:04] wings, man, I remember going to like the
[02:20:07] [ __ ] Asian sewing store outside the
[02:20:09] base and getting them to sew those
[02:20:11] [ __ ] wings on for the first time, I
[02:20:14] was magical. like putting putting those
[02:20:16] BDUs on with the wings on for the first
[02:20:18] time. It was uh it was a good feeling.
[02:20:21] And you know, you get your flight suit
[02:20:22] and all that, you feel like [ __ ]
[02:20:25] Maverick, you know. Um you only see
[02:20:28] people wearing that [ __ ] in the movies.
[02:20:30] Now you're wearing one. It's pretty
[02:20:32] pretty awesome.
[02:20:33] Um
[02:20:35] first order of business was okay,
[02:20:37] >> what were you what are you flying? Um,
[02:20:40] so it's called an RC135 rivet joint and
[02:20:43] it's uh it's a 30 person 30 crew
[02:20:47] aircraft
[02:20:49] and it's full of cryptologic linguists
[02:20:51] on it and it's basically a mini NSA
[02:20:55] flying in the sky. Holy [ __ ]
[02:20:59] Um, it's been around since the Cold War.
[02:21:01] So the the cryptologic linguist um
[02:21:04] community career field uh discipline has
[02:21:08] been around for a very long time since
[02:21:10] World War II. So in World War II they
[02:21:12] had all these cryptologologists trying
[02:21:14] to break the Enigma and break the
[02:21:17] Japanese JN25 cipher which is like the
[02:21:20] cipher that the Japanese were using to
[02:21:22] coordinate the Pearl Harbor assault.
[02:21:25] Eventually they did crack that but they
[02:21:26] cracked it too late if I recall my
[02:21:27] history correctly. So there's a there's
[02:21:29] a long kind of lineage of signals
[02:21:32] intelligence and um and airborne signals
[02:21:34] intelligence more specifically for the
[02:21:36] air force. So during the cold war you
[02:21:38] would have RC135s
[02:21:40] flying around and basically evaluating
[02:21:44] uh you know what the Russians were doing
[02:21:47] um like offset from Russian airspace or
[02:21:50] offset from Chinese airspace or
[02:21:53] whatever.
[02:21:54] In 2000, there was an EP3 uh plane that
[02:21:58] went down. It was a Navy EP3. And that
[02:22:00] was a very similarly configured plane as
[02:22:03] to the RC135. And so it was full of, you
[02:22:06] know, cryptologic linguists from the
[02:22:08] Navy in this case. And they had to
[02:22:10] emergency set down on Hainan Island, I
[02:22:12] think. And you know, there's a bunch of
[02:22:14] [ __ ] top secret [ __ ] on there. It's
[02:22:16] like all this signals, intelligence
[02:22:17] gear. We're going to set down on a
[02:22:19] Chinese airirstrip. So they started
[02:22:21] going to town just breaking all that
[02:22:22] [ __ ] in there and zeroing out the crypto
[02:22:24] and all that [ __ ] I don't think they
[02:22:25] were fully successful and I think they
[02:22:28] use that as a case study um and you know
[02:22:31] how to
[02:22:33] how to be when all that [ __ ] goes down
[02:22:35] but that that's the idea. You know
[02:22:36] you're a flying signals intelligence
[02:22:38] platform. Basically this is 2005 and the
[02:22:41] Afghanistan war is in full swing. Um,
[02:22:44] and our tasking was to essentially fly
[02:22:49] racetrack patterns over Afghanistan at,
[02:22:52] you know, x many thousand ft. I don't I
[02:22:55] don't know if I'm allowed to say the
[02:22:56] exact altitude and basically hoover up
[02:23:00] every [ __ ] thing that's putting out
[02:23:02] radio signals in or electromagnetic
[02:23:04] signals in any [ __ ] way, shape, or
[02:23:06] form. And at the time
[02:23:09] the Taliban and the foreign fighter
[02:23:12] contingent
[02:23:13] uh were still in their mountain
[02:23:15] readouts, you know, al you blabber on
[02:23:18] here talking about Anaconda
[02:23:20] and a lot of Anaconda was and the reason
[02:23:23] they [ __ ] sent dudes to the top of uh
[02:23:26] Robert's Ridge is because Al Qaeda had
[02:23:28] these readouts, these mountain, you
[02:23:30] know, hard points in um in all the
[02:23:33] surrounding uh high areas and they were
[02:23:36] communicating with each other uh over
[02:23:40] various forms of electronic devices,
[02:23:43] let's say. And our job was to understand
[02:23:48] uh when they were using them, how they
[02:23:51] were using them,
[02:23:53] and
[02:23:55] uh basically
[02:23:57] triangulate positions when we could and
[02:24:01] um and call them down to ground teams.
[02:24:04] And this is really when I started to
[02:24:06] understand this concept of um
[02:24:10] how signals intelligence w could support
[02:24:13] kinetic operations on the ground. It was
[02:24:15] a very tight loop. You know, often times
[02:24:18] if you're a linguist and you end up at
[02:24:20] like Fort me or you end up at one of
[02:24:23] these other [ __ ] places, you don't
[02:24:25] get to see the tight like fine, fix,
[02:24:28] finish loop that you necessarily see uh
[02:24:33] in some of these other platforms. And
[02:24:35] so, you know, these guys are using their
[02:24:37] [ __ ] icon radios or whatever. And um
[02:24:40] we're we're picking up on it. This is
[02:24:44] 2005. The military did not have very
[02:24:46] many poshu linguists at the time.
[02:24:49] Um, basically all the poshu linguists
[02:24:51] they [ __ ] had at the time were, I
[02:24:53] think, pretty much on the ground with
[02:24:55] with the dudes. Um, rightfully so. So,
[02:24:59] the guys that were left were basically
[02:25:01] guys like me, Arabic linguists that
[02:25:03] could hear maybe some words that were
[02:25:06] Arabic in nature, like maybe we can make
[02:25:08] out some call signs,
[02:25:10] but occasionally you would hear the
[02:25:12] occasional
[02:25:14] Arabic
[02:25:16] coming over the wire. And when you heard
[02:25:18] that, you knew it was a foreign fighter
[02:25:21] and you knew it was possibly associated
[02:25:23] with senior leadership. And that was
[02:25:26] compelling because, you know, we're
[02:25:29] tasking was to go smoke those [ __ ]
[02:25:31] dudes. Um, and so you're sitting there
[02:25:35] and you you kind of develop this rhythm
[02:25:37] of of working,
[02:25:40] you know, the gear. And um I'm I'm going
[02:25:42] to stay as clean as I can talking
[02:25:44] through all this stuff. Um but you know,
[02:25:46] imagine you're visualizing a spectrum
[02:25:48] analyzer and depending on what you're
[02:25:51] seeing on that spectrum analyzer,
[02:25:54] uh you know, that dictates,
[02:25:59] you know, how you conduct your
[02:26:01] triangulation and how you're calculating
[02:26:04] the coordinates of where these [ __ ]
[02:26:05] guys are at, right? And at the same
[02:26:08] time, if there's audio coming through,
[02:26:10] because they're talking over unencrypted
[02:26:11] [ __ ] icon radios, right? It's not
[02:26:12] like these guys have coalition.
[02:26:13] >> You're the [ __ ] guy that can tell
[02:26:15] what room somebody's in in a hotel.
[02:26:18] >> Yeah, we'll get to that.
[02:26:18] >> What floor? What room?
[02:26:20] >> Is he in the bathroom? We're at [ __ ]
[02:26:23] You're that [ __ ]
[02:26:24] >> Well, yeah, we'll get to that.
[02:26:26] >> Holy [ __ ]
[02:26:26] >> We'll get to that.
[02:26:27] >> I've never met one of you guys.
[02:26:30] >> Wow.
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[02:28:39] But it all started with [ __ ] flying
[02:28:40] racetracks, right? And like learning the
[02:28:43] the the craft. Um,
[02:28:47] you're looking at the spec A,
[02:28:50] there's audio coming through because
[02:28:52] these guys haven't loaded crypto in
[02:28:53] their [ __ ] radios. um then you're
[02:28:56] you're trying to figure out what what
[02:28:58] the [ __ ] is going on. And because you
[02:29:01] only have limited time on station,
[02:29:03] right? Um
[02:29:05] it's quite a bit of time, but still it's
[02:29:07] it's finite time. What you do is you
[02:29:10] slave multiple frequencies into your
[02:29:12] ears at the same time. And so you
[02:29:14] developed this skill set of
[02:29:17] you got multiple freaks in this year,
[02:29:19] you got multiple freaks in that year,
[02:29:20] and you're [ __ ] just transcribing all
[02:29:25] of it. You're you you're keeping track
[02:29:27] of like multiple things going on um
[02:29:31] across multiple different frequencies.
[02:29:32] It's a skill that's valuable to this day
[02:29:34] cuz I'll be sitting in a [ __ ]
[02:29:36] restaurant and like I'm talking to my
[02:29:37] girlfriend. I'm hearing like we're
[02:29:39] having a conversation. And I'm like
[02:29:40] listening to the [ __ ] table two doors
[02:29:42] that way and I'm listening to the table,
[02:29:44] you know, two tables that way. Um,
[02:29:48] but you're doing all this, but the the
[02:29:50] end goal is always, hey, get some
[02:29:52] [ __ ] actionable
[02:29:54] coordinates down to the guys on the
[02:29:56] ground, right? Because they're going to
[02:29:57] [ __ ] do some [ __ ]
[02:30:00] Um, and we did, uh, we did it over and
[02:30:02] over and over again, um, day after day.
[02:30:06] But to me it was never it was never
[02:30:09] enough. You know, I always wanted like
[02:30:11] the next thing. Um I remember sometimes
[02:30:15] flying at night over Afghanistan and um
[02:30:18] you know there there's like a couple of
[02:30:20] little windows in the back of this
[02:30:21] [ __ ] bird and I remember looking out
[02:30:25] the window one night and there was some
[02:30:27] [ __ ] going down. There was like a tick
[02:30:29] like down way below and there there were
[02:30:32] uh you know they had called in some uh
[02:30:34] some air strikes and so there were dudes
[02:30:36] doing like gun runs and [ __ ] and I could
[02:30:38] see all this [ __ ] going down outside the
[02:30:39] window but it's happening tens of
[02:30:41] thousands of feet below me, right? I'm
[02:30:43] like [ __ ] I just feel [ __ ] helpless
[02:30:45] up here, you know? Um
[02:30:49] but that's me. This is a character flaw
[02:30:50] that I have, right? Like I I have no
[02:30:52] business being in a room. I earn my
[02:30:55] place in the room and then I very
[02:30:57] quickly want to get to the next [ __ ]
[02:30:58] room. And it it's no,
[02:31:02] you know, the RC135 community are a
[02:31:05] great bunch of people. Like they're very
[02:31:07] dedicated to their mission. They have a
[02:31:08] very strategic national mission. There's
[02:31:10] a lot of stuff that they do that I'm not
[02:31:12] getting into here uh that are a lot more
[02:31:14] kind of strategic in nature at the time
[02:31:18] for me. Go ahead.
[02:31:20] >> I get I was just going to say I totally
[02:31:22] understand what you're saying. It's just
[02:31:23] it's it's high drive very successful
[02:31:26] people we're it's just
[02:31:28] >> we all [ __ ] think the same I think. I
[02:31:31] mean it's it's you you get in you check
[02:31:34] the box. Great. What's next?
[02:31:36] >> Yeah. What's the next [ __ ] Like
[02:31:37] >> get there. Check the box. Great. I'm
[02:31:40] bored. What's next? I'm not challenged
[02:31:43] anymore.
[02:31:43] >> Yeah. And
[02:31:44] >> it just keeps [ __ ] moving moving. And
[02:31:47] it's not some like ego thing where it's
[02:31:49] like I need to, you know, be stroked,
[02:31:53] but I I know that I can add more value
[02:31:57] and have more impact if I was doing
[02:32:00] something closer to the fight, right?
[02:32:03] So, put me in, coach. Get me closer to
[02:32:05] the fight. So, Red Wings kicked off,
[02:32:09] like I said. Uh, so, you know, we all
[02:32:12] hear that there's a there's a missing uh
[02:32:14] team guy that OP went wrong. We didn't
[02:32:17] get the full picture. Um, but it's like
[02:32:20] find this [ __ ] dude's PRD and like
[02:32:22] monitor the guard frequencies. See if
[02:32:24] anyone's talking about him, you know? We
[02:32:26] got we got to [ __ ] find there's
[02:32:28] massive c like there were a lot of
[02:32:30] [ __ ] assets that got put in the air
[02:32:32] and tasked to find Marcus.
[02:32:34] >> Were you there when it went down? Yeah,
[02:32:36] I was I was I was um I was deployed um
[02:32:40] when it went down and we
[02:32:41] >> Were you watching it?
[02:32:43] >> Uh no, I wasn't watching it. No, I
[02:32:45] wasn't watching it. Um that bird in
[02:32:49] particular at the time, I don't know
[02:32:50] whether they do now, did not have
[02:32:52] imagery capabilities. Um
[02:32:55] so somebody else was watching it, not
[02:32:57] me.
[02:32:58] What we did was we worked in crew uh
[02:33:03] crews of two. So, two 30man crews and we
[02:33:07] would just swap back and forth. One bird
[02:33:10] would land, other one would take off.
[02:33:11] Um, do a bunch of aerial refuels on the
[02:33:14] way in uh into Afghanistan. Um,
[02:33:18] and then get on station, parked on
[02:33:20] station forever, just doing racetracks
[02:33:22] and we're just cycling through the
[02:33:24] frequencies looking for any [ __ ]
[02:33:26] indication that anyone knows what the
[02:33:28] [ __ ] happened to these dudes and what
[02:33:29] happened to Marcus in particular. And I
[02:33:32] don't think it was my crew. I think it
[02:33:34] was the other crew that I was with um
[02:33:38] that had some
[02:33:40] had some say in what went down. I don't
[02:33:44] I don't remember. Um
[02:33:46] but I remember being like,
[02:33:50] I wish I could contribute more to
[02:33:52] whatever the [ __ ] is going on down
[02:33:53] there. Um,
[02:33:58] oh, and one more [ __ ] thing happened
[02:34:00] that deployment. And, uh, actually it
[02:34:02] may have been the next deployment.
[02:34:05] There was a dude that came in one night
[02:34:08] to the talk and he was like, "I'm from
[02:34:14] uh, you know, this this task force
[02:34:17] and uh, before I say anything else, you
[02:34:20] guys are going to sign these [ __ ]
[02:34:21] NDAs."
[02:34:23] I'm like, "All right, this cool. I can
[02:34:25] get down with whatever's going on here."
[02:34:26] So, I signed the NDAs and he starts
[02:34:28] briefing us up on this [ __ ] thing
[02:34:31] that they're going to do. And it was
[02:34:34] very similar to what went down in
[02:34:37] Venezuela um a few weeks ago. Um you
[02:34:42] know, not we weren't targeting they
[02:34:44] weren't targeting a [ __ ] head estate
[02:34:45] or some [ __ ] but it was a high value
[02:34:47] target. Um long infill. Uh there was,
[02:34:51] you know, the threat of
[02:34:54] sophisticated, coordinated
[02:34:58] enemy response.
[02:35:01] And so our job on that particular night
[02:35:05] was to provide
[02:35:08] essentially electronic overwatch for the
[02:35:11] guys. Um I was like, I don't know what
[02:35:14] the [ __ ] is going on here. I don't know
[02:35:16] who this dude is,
[02:35:18] but I remember reading about the units
[02:35:20] that he's talking about. And I'm [ __ ]
[02:35:23] stoked that I get to do a little part in
[02:35:25] supporting them. And, you know, I was
[02:35:26] all over the [ __ ] frequencies that
[02:35:28] night. Um, they they went in, did their
[02:35:31] thing, went out. It was uneventful, but
[02:35:33] it just put the bug in my ear, you know?
[02:35:35] I was like, whatever those guys are up
[02:35:37] to, like I want I want in.
[02:35:40] So, we get back and um
[02:35:45] the military and the bureaucracy in the
[02:35:47] military has a way of
[02:35:50] hamstringing people that um
[02:35:54] when they see a person that's like
[02:35:56] really performing well and they're
[02:35:57] highly motivated and so on, they do this
[02:36:00] [ __ ] thing where they put you in the
[02:36:02] most boring job possible.
[02:36:04] I don't know why or how, but they put me
[02:36:09] at a desk job after I get home for like
[02:36:11] I think I do like two two pumps this
[02:36:14] Afghanistan [ __ ] and I'm like I I can't
[02:36:18] deal with this [ __ ] dude. Like I'm
[02:36:20] sitting at a desk. I'm like seeing the
[02:36:22] reports come through. You know, we got
[02:36:23] these crews out in Afghanistan and we
[02:36:25] got crews elsewhere too doing other
[02:36:26] [ __ ] right?
[02:36:28] um and they're sending in their their
[02:36:30] reports and these reports they get
[02:36:32] distilled and sent up through the
[02:36:35] national intelligence reporting channels
[02:36:37] and some of them make it all the way to
[02:36:38] the president right depending on what's
[02:36:40] going on. So it's like you know it's
[02:36:42] important work but
[02:36:44] >> I don't like sitting behind a desk.
[02:36:47] >> So I start walking the halls and like
[02:36:50] telling anyone who would listen like hey
[02:36:52] man like is there anything else I can
[02:36:53] do? Like I can I what can I do? like
[02:36:56] what can I do besides sitting at this
[02:36:58] [ __ ] computer behind this desk.
[02:37:00] Ironic given what I do for a living now,
[02:37:02] but at the time I was just trying to get
[02:37:04] after it. And so rumors started floating
[02:37:06] around the squadron of of a deployment
[02:37:09] um to Iraq
[02:37:11] uh supporting task force
[02:37:14] and I had no idea what it entailed,
[02:37:16] right? I was like, I just need to cool,
[02:37:19] let's I want to go to Iraq and I want to
[02:37:21] go I don't know who these guys are, but
[02:37:22] I want to I want to roll with them. And
[02:37:25] I would tell anyone that that would
[02:37:26] listen, they're like, "You're an
[02:37:27] Arabic." You know, the leadership in the
[02:37:28] squadron was like, "You're an Arabic
[02:37:29] linguist. We can't lose you to this
[02:37:31] [ __ ] [ __ ] right here. Like, you got
[02:37:32] to, you know, buckle down and you we got
[02:37:34] plans for you." I was like, "I don't
[02:37:37] accept that." And so there was uh there
[02:37:39] was one guy
[02:37:41] and he had just rotated in from Bragg as
[02:37:45] as the chief of the squadron. And chief
[02:37:46] in the Air Force is E9. It's like the
[02:37:49] highest [ __ ] enlisted rank. and he
[02:37:52] was um he was like the senior enlisted
[02:37:54] uh leader at the squadron and um I was a
[02:37:57] [ __ ]
[02:38:00] E3 at the time, E3, E4. And I just barge
[02:38:04] into this dude's office. I'm like,
[02:38:05] "Chief, you got to send me on this
[02:38:07] [ __ ] deployment. Please let me go on
[02:38:10] this deployment, please." And he looks,
[02:38:12] he's like, "Who the [ __ ] are you? like
[02:38:15] what are you going to like walk into my
[02:38:17] office like the right way and like not
[02:38:19] just [ __ ] barge in here like we're
[02:38:21] buddies.
[02:38:23] Um and he hears my case and he just
[02:38:26] looks at me like
[02:38:30] get the [ __ ] out of my office and
[02:38:35] you know stand by if we need you to go
[02:38:38] on this deployment we'll we'll send you.
[02:38:43] They figure out a way to get me on the
[02:38:44] [ __ ] deployment. That was um that was
[02:38:46] January 2007. Go to Iraq with the task
[02:38:50] force. And from January to July of 2007,
[02:38:56] I'm 23 years old and I'm [ __ ] calling
[02:39:00] in assaulters every [ __ ] night from
[02:39:03] the air. Now I' Now I'm not at [ __ ]
[02:39:08] x tens of thousands of feet anymore. Now
[02:39:11] I'm I'm I'm a bit closer to the to the
[02:39:13] action right now. I've got eyes. I've
[02:39:15] got like I've got dudes with imagery
[02:39:18] capabilities. I'm seeing what's going on
[02:39:20] with with the with the assaults. I'm my
[02:39:23] gear is a bit more sophisticated. Um I'm
[02:39:27] having direct impact. I'm [ __ ]
[02:39:29] talking to the lead Hilos on Hilo
[02:39:31] Common, you know? Like when them 160th
[02:39:33] dudes check in on Hilo Common, like you
[02:39:35] just [ __ ] know that shit's shit's
[02:39:38] gonna go down. And they're all and it's
[02:39:40] a it's a it's a crack addiction because
[02:39:44] they're all waiting on me and they're
[02:39:46] waiting on me to trigger the [ __ ]
[02:39:48] thing by telling them where this [ __ ]
[02:39:51] dude's at. Like,
[02:39:52] >> holy [ __ ]
[02:39:54] um
[02:39:54] >> 23
[02:39:56] >> 23 years old [ __ ]
[02:39:58] >> night after night after night [ __ ]
[02:40:00] executing fine fix on uh on highv value
[02:40:04] targets um for task force in in Iraq
[02:40:08] and
[02:40:11] when you when you execute fine fix like
[02:40:13] that at the time you know this is Mcrist
[02:40:15] era task force and you know the guys are
[02:40:18] just primed it's a [ __ ] welloiled
[02:40:21] machine
[02:40:23] Um, so you call it in and uh, you know,
[02:40:28] 160th dudes have their have their rotors
[02:40:30] spinning. They're just waiting on
[02:40:31] [ __ ] coordinates from you. And once
[02:40:32] they have them coordinates, they're
[02:40:34] launching. They got the assaulters on
[02:40:36] board. Uh, depending on the nature of
[02:40:38] the target, you know, that dictates the
[02:40:40] the half package. Sometimes they rolled
[02:40:44] in with the with the ground assault
[02:40:45] force, too. um just depended depended on
[02:40:48] the target and where he was and what the
[02:40:51] [ __ ] was the situation. But it was the
[02:40:54] most addicting thing I had ever done in
[02:40:56] my life. I I was just enthralled and
[02:41:03] I never wanted to do anything else.
[02:41:07] Um, and working with like such a crew of
[02:41:11] professionals,
[02:41:13] you you kind of start to turn into like
[02:41:16] entitled a bit. You're like, "This is
[02:41:18] obviously this is how this [ __ ] goes
[02:41:19] down." It's like, you know, I launch, I
[02:41:22] tell them where to go, they go um and
[02:41:26] then they call, they confirm whether
[02:41:28] they got the dude or not. And
[02:41:31] then you then you start to get like
[02:41:34] requested by other assets in country. Um
[02:41:37] and so I remember one time I um
[02:41:42] I went down to Bazra to work with Seal
[02:41:45] Team 5
[02:41:47] and um I was so I I was riding on a on
[02:41:51] an army bird.
[02:41:52] >> So you're like winning the [ __ ]
[02:41:54] lottery to the soft community.
[02:41:56] >> It was
[02:41:56] >> especially for white soft. Yeah, it was
[02:41:59] is it was great, dude.
[02:42:01] >> Everybody wants a piece.
[02:42:04] >> Yeah, it was great. Um,
[02:42:07] so we we load up on this on this army uh
[02:42:10] on this army bird. We go down to Basra.
[02:42:12] I got the army guys next to me. I and uh
[02:42:15] I I get down off the bird. Um I'm
[02:42:17] talking to the to the Takiw guys from
[02:42:19] Seal Team 5. Maybe they were team guys.
[02:42:21] I don't know. And we start to plot out,
[02:42:23] you know, what what needs to happen.
[02:42:25] They're going after this highv value
[02:42:26] target one night and I'm like cool like
[02:42:30] tell me tell me all the things that I
[02:42:32] need to know. Here's how you know I'll
[02:42:34] coordinate with you. Um and let me know
[02:42:38] what you what you fellas need. Here's
[02:42:41] the freaks you know all all that.
[02:42:42] >> What kind of stuff do you need to know?
[02:42:47] >> Um
[02:42:49] basic kind of
[02:42:53] I'm trying to keep things clean. Um,
[02:42:57] you know, do you expect this dude to
[02:43:01] like stay put or do you expect him to be
[02:43:05] moving around? Um,
[02:43:09] there's some other things that I need to
[02:43:11] uh make the the gear, you know, tell me
[02:43:15] what what I need it to tell me.
[02:43:17] Um, I basically just need to know like
[02:43:21] what do they already know about this guy
[02:43:23] so that when I'm looking at the spectrum
[02:43:24] analyzer and I'm I'm getting all the
[02:43:27] readouts and [ __ ] it's like tracking
[02:43:29] with what they already know about this
[02:43:31] guy. Um
[02:43:35] the
[02:43:38] a high stress event is when you
[02:43:43] are looking at the data
[02:43:46] and you know the guy is just staying
[02:43:49] put, right?
[02:43:51] And
[02:43:52] you call it in. You know the boys are
[02:43:55] loading up, you know, whether they're
[02:43:57] it's a gaff or a half or whatever and
[02:44:00] they're coming inbound.
[02:44:03] And then the [ __ ] dude starts to
[02:44:04] move, right? That's what the the data is
[02:44:08] indicating. And you're like, [ __ ]
[02:44:12] Um,
[02:44:14] and it's not like you're in the middle
[02:44:15] of the goddamn desert and it's like, you
[02:44:18] know, you've got imagery capability, so
[02:44:22] you know, you can tell who's moving and
[02:44:24] like correlate it with what you're
[02:44:25] seeing on the spec A.
[02:44:27] You're in a [ __ ] urban area. You
[02:44:29] know, you don't know who's who down
[02:44:31] there. And all you know is that the data
[02:44:34] is changing in some capacity.
[02:44:37] And you need to [ __ ] figure out
[02:44:39] quickly what that data and how it's
[02:44:43] changing means for the guys coming in on
[02:44:45] the Humvees or coming in on the [ __ ]
[02:44:48] DAPS birds.
[02:44:50] And if you're wrong,
[02:44:53] you're going to put them on the you're
[02:44:54] going to put them on the wrong house.
[02:44:56] You're going to put them on the wrong
[02:44:56] vehicle. You're going to put them
[02:44:59] 800 things could go sideways quickly.
[02:45:02] So that was those are like the highest
[02:45:04] stress situations. In this particular
[02:45:06] case with uh you know the Seal team five
[02:45:08] dudes, the guy stayed put. He was well
[02:45:10] behaved. I was like here we go. He's in
[02:45:12] the middle of this [ __ ] market. Um
[02:45:14] come on and get it boys.
[02:45:17] And then I just silence quiet. It's just
[02:45:21] nothing happens. 10 minutes, 20 minutes,
[02:45:23] 30 minutes, 40 minutes. I'm like, "Hey,
[02:45:24] like he's still there. Like what's going
[02:45:26] on?
[02:45:28] I'm like, you we're going to run out of
[02:45:29] fuel here. Like, we got to we got to
[02:45:31] head back soon. Like, you guys you guys
[02:45:32] coming out or what? Um, and so I started
[02:45:35] to get like kind of antsy. And I started
[02:45:40] I realized
[02:45:43] if I had done that exact same routine
[02:45:47] with the task force dudes,
[02:45:50] it would have been
[02:45:52] it would have been a [ __ ] welloiled
[02:45:54] machine. the guys would have been there
[02:45:56] in out like
[02:45:59] no like just a well old machine
[02:46:03] but like the conventional dudes
[02:46:06] rightfully so like did not have that
[02:46:10] kind of operational cadence and so you
[02:46:12] know they're they're doing risk
[02:46:14] assessments they're like is it worth
[02:46:15] going in this [ __ ]
[02:46:17] busy marketplace are we going to get
[02:46:18] into a [ __ ] Moadishu situation and so
[02:46:22] that that taught me like okay there's a
[02:46:24] between the very
[02:46:27] tip of the spear up here and then like
[02:46:31] everybody else and the and the gap is
[02:46:33] huge. It's [ __ ] huge. Which is why
[02:46:35] when I saw that Venezuela hit go down, I
[02:46:39] was like, "Yeah, there's only a couple
[02:46:42] couple organizations that could have
[02:46:43] pulled that off." Anyway, all that to
[02:46:46] say, I I started to learn about myself.
[02:46:49] I said, you know, and it was easy for me
[02:46:51] to get frustrated with those guys from
[02:46:53] Seal Team 5. I was like, dude, get the
[02:46:55] like get the [ __ ] out there. Like, this
[02:46:56] guy's going to leave and you're going to
[02:46:58] lose your chance at rolling them up. But
[02:47:00] I had to empathize with them, you know,
[02:47:02] like it's a it's a dangerous situation
[02:47:04] for them. Here I am comfortable in the
[02:47:06] air, you know. Um, it's just not going
[02:47:09] to happen on my timetable. And so I
[02:47:11] started to learn how to work with like
[02:47:13] various
[02:47:15] units and teams and see things from
[02:47:17] their perspective and not just sit in
[02:47:19] this ivory tower of oh you're a [ __ ]
[02:47:21] task force dude like this is how things
[02:47:22] are done. Um so I think it humbled me a
[02:47:25] little bit. Um I tried to always
[02:47:29] I tried to always you know do what the
[02:47:32] the guys needed to be done um without
[02:47:36] being um ideological about it I would
[02:47:39] say. So that went on for 6 months. Um,
[02:47:43] >> we're able to think out of the box
[02:47:46] is what you're saying.
[02:47:48] >> Yeah. I You're a problem solver.
[02:47:52] >> Yeah. I just I just wanted to whether
[02:47:55] you you came from [ __ ] Steel Team 5
[02:47:57] or the 173rd Airborne or some
[02:48:01] >> Belg some task force unit.
[02:48:04] >> I just wanted to make your life easier
[02:48:08] if I could.
[02:48:10] And um that's that's the way I I tried
[02:48:13] to make it happen. Um
[02:48:17] and and I say I because you know I'm I'm
[02:48:19] the one sitting here on the couch across
[02:48:20] from you, but um you know there were a
[02:48:23] lot of just [ __ ] awesome people that
[02:48:26] um that flew these missions with me and
[02:48:29] um I'm friends with many of them to this
[02:48:31] day. And so I don't want to I don't want
[02:48:33] to make it seem like, oh, [ __ ] Nick
[02:48:34] was
[02:48:36] flying around Iraq [ __ ] you know,
[02:48:39] doing this [ __ ] like a lone wolf. No,
[02:48:41] there's there's a whole cast of
[02:48:42] characters that were involved. Um, at
[02:48:46] one point I was like the scheduler for
[02:48:49] uh for the squadron. So I would try and,
[02:48:52] you know, it's a task force is a joint
[02:48:54] service agency. So I would try and map
[02:48:56] out like, all right, this dude like gets
[02:48:58] along with these army guys better. All
[02:49:00] right. So, I'm going to put them on on
[02:49:02] this crew over here. And this dude gets
[02:49:04] along with the Navy dudes better. All
[02:49:05] right. So, I'm going to put them here.
[02:49:07] Um,
[02:49:09] so then then I got back and then then it
[02:49:11] was like, "Well, you're going to [ __ ]
[02:49:12] fly RC135s again and just turn circles
[02:49:15] over Afghanistan." I was like, "No
[02:49:17] [ __ ] way, dude." Like, I need to get
[02:49:19] back to whatever magic it was that I
[02:49:20] just came came from experiencing.
[02:49:24] Um,
[02:49:27] when I got back to when I got back
[02:49:28] stateside, um, I I'm sitting in the
[02:49:31] office and I get a phone call, hey, do
[02:49:34] you want to come to task force
[02:49:35] full-time?
[02:49:36] Uh, I'm like,
[02:49:39] [ __ ] [ __ ] Hey, right, I do.
[02:49:43] Uh, so I I go through, you know, the
[02:49:47] process. Um,
[02:49:50] and uh, I get selected to go to task
[02:49:53] force full-time. I guess, you know, I
[02:49:57] they they saw something in me.
[02:50:00] >> What was
[02:50:02] what was what was your selection like?
[02:50:04] Can you say what task force? Can I say
[02:50:06] it?
[02:50:07] >> Um,
[02:50:09] preer to keep things high level like
[02:50:12] task force. Roger that.
[02:50:13] >> Task force level. Um,
[02:50:20] so for for the signal squadron that I
[02:50:24] ended up in over there, the the
[02:50:28] selection and the screening and the
[02:50:30] initial training cycle is very much it's
[02:50:33] not physical stuff. It's uh a lot of it
[02:50:37] is around it's a couple different
[02:50:39] things. Are you able to handle yourself
[02:50:43] in high pressure
[02:50:47] environments where
[02:50:49] you might not necessarily have a lot of
[02:50:51] [ __ ] dudes backing you up, you know?
[02:50:54] You might be
[02:50:57] South America is a good example, right?
[02:50:59] You might find yourself in a town in
[02:51:02] South America and there's just
[02:51:03] temptation all around you, right?
[02:51:06] And are you going to succumb to that
[02:51:07] temptation or are you going to stay
[02:51:10] locked the [ __ ] in and do the job that
[02:51:12] you're supposed to be doing at that
[02:51:14] particular moment in time? And a lot of
[02:51:15] dudes like they're just not able to
[02:51:18] >> as a singleton
[02:51:20] >> um small small teams sometimes
[02:51:22] singleton.
[02:51:25] Um
[02:51:27] so a lot of it is around you know are
[02:51:29] you able to handle yourself in those
[02:51:31] situations?
[02:51:33] Um, and then there's once you get to the
[02:51:37] squadron, you
[02:51:39] um
[02:51:41] it's an it's an air force squadron, so
[02:51:43] you're primarily um
[02:51:47] you know, you have units that you that
[02:51:50] you work with. Um, but you there's a
[02:51:53] possibility that you get farmed out to
[02:51:55] to one of the other sister units as
[02:51:57] well. Um, so Army, Navy, what have you.
[02:52:02] Um, the other aspect to it is
[02:52:06] all the things that I was doing on that
[02:52:08] RC135 bird, you know, looking at the
[02:52:10] spectrum analyzer,
[02:52:12] uh, listening to what was going on on
[02:52:15] the frequencies and so on. Um, let's
[02:52:17] imagine that you can compress all that
[02:52:20] kit down into, you know, a magical form
[02:52:24] factor, let's say, and then you slave
[02:52:28] everything into, you know, like an
[02:52:30] earpiece or something.
[02:52:33] Um,
[02:52:37] can you do the things that you did
[02:52:39] previously, but without staring at a
[02:52:41] [ __ ] spectrum analyzer sitting in
[02:52:43] front of you and all you have to go off
[02:52:45] of are some audio cues? Cuz now you've
[02:52:49] slaved the
[02:52:51] the analytics and the data that's pip
[02:52:54] being piped through that that analyzer
[02:52:56] into like u sonic feedback essentially.
[02:53:00] let's say I'm I'm trying to keep things,
[02:53:02] you know, clean and high level here, you
[02:53:05] know. Um,
[02:53:07] and
[02:53:09] there there's an art to it because you
[02:53:12] can get out there and you can strap one
[02:53:15] of these things on and uh, you know,
[02:53:17] you'll see it with new guys. They
[02:53:19] they'll [ __ ] they'll do like Mr.
[02:53:22] robot like like doing this thing like
[02:53:25] just roboting around because they're
[02:53:27] trying to synthesize.
[02:53:31] It's like adding a new sense
[02:53:32] essentially. They're trying to
[02:53:34] synthesize what they're hearing through
[02:53:36] the the earpiece and the kit
[02:53:39] with what they're seeing in the physical
[02:53:40] world. So you have to like put together
[02:53:42] this threedimensional world around you
[02:53:44] with the things that you're hearing from
[02:53:47] from your gear
[02:53:50] because electromagnetic
[02:53:52] frequencies are just [ __ ] weird [ __ ]
[02:53:54] right? They do all kinds of crazy
[02:53:55] nonsense. Like if you're too close to
[02:53:57] [ __ ] rail tracks, like they'll throw
[02:53:59] [ __ ] off. If you're too close to power
[02:54:01] lines, they'll ride the power lines. Um
[02:54:04] they'll multipath through like like and
[02:54:07] bounce off of buildings. And so that'll
[02:54:10] throw that'll throw things off. And so
[02:54:13] you need to un you need to like in your
[02:54:16] mind and in your body build this muscle
[02:54:19] memory of
[02:54:21] the things that I hear in here
[02:54:24] have a meaning
[02:54:26] based on how the things out here are
[02:54:28] looking. Right? That that's about as
[02:54:30] most as I can say on that piece there.
[02:54:32] But if you get good at it, then you can
[02:54:36] you can do some some amazing things and
[02:54:39] uh and execute fine fix for for the guys
[02:54:42] as needed.
[02:54:43] >> So would you would you say this is
[02:54:44] similar to
[02:54:46] I mean they say have you ever seen that
[02:54:48] guy he's blind but he can [ __ ] see
[02:54:51] >> Yeah.
[02:54:52] >> through
[02:54:53] through audio.
[02:54:55] >> Yeah.
[02:54:55] >> He could [ __ ] make like these little
[02:54:57] chirps like
[02:54:58] >> Yeah.
[02:54:58] >> And he's he [ __ ] sees. Yep. Is that
[02:55:01] Is that like
[02:55:02] >> It's very similar. Yeah, it's very
[02:55:03] similar. And it takes a lot of time on
[02:55:06] the gear to
[02:55:09] have it be fluid and natural and, you
[02:55:12] know, if if I was to look at you and you
[02:55:15] would just be like another dude, you
[02:55:17] know, and I wouldn't be able to tell
[02:55:18] that you were doing something weird
[02:55:21] otherwise you're doing [ __ ] Mr.
[02:55:22] Robboto on the street.
[02:55:25] Um,
[02:55:27] so that that was a lot of that was a lot
[02:55:29] of it. Um,
[02:55:32] and we got we got a lot of cross
[02:55:35] training opportunities, too. You know,
[02:55:36] we um I I went over to SRT1, Special
[02:55:40] Reconnaissance Team One over on the West
[02:55:42] Coast. Um, got to cross train with those
[02:55:44] guys. Phenomenal
[02:55:47] bunch of men and women out there.
[02:55:51] um just to learn like, okay, how are you
[02:55:53] guys doing [ __ ] Okay, here's how we're
[02:55:55] doing stuff, you know, what are what are
[02:55:56] some of the challenges you guys have? Um
[02:56:00] that was really cool cuz you know the
[02:56:02] SRT1 is on the BUDS compound or at least
[02:56:05] it was back then. So you got like all
[02:56:06] the BUDS [ __ ] students are doing
[02:56:08] their thing and then you know the the
[02:56:10] SRT1 building is kind of a little bit
[02:56:12] over.
[02:56:13] >> So you you feel like you know you're
[02:56:15] you're part of part of an important
[02:56:17] thing going on here. Um,
[02:56:20] and again that was like I always loved
[02:56:23] working with other services, dude. Like
[02:56:26] I don't know. I just felt like I was an
[02:56:27] emissary from the Air Force, you know,
[02:56:30] and I just wanted to represent my
[02:56:31] service well and
[02:56:35] kind of break the mental, break the mold
[02:56:38] of like, uh, Air Force dude just [ __ ]
[02:56:42] sits around, you know? Um
[02:56:46] and uh so I just wanted to be a good
[02:56:47] emissary I think for for the Air Force.
[02:56:51] But that that SRT1 trip um was
[02:56:55] interesting
[02:56:56] because I got to see how regular NSW
[02:56:59] does stuff.
[02:57:01] Um
[02:57:04] so I spent uh I spent you know the next
[02:57:08] few years doing doing that business for
[02:57:11] the task force. One of the things that
[02:57:15] comes to mind is um you know you you'd
[02:57:17] be doing air stuff as well, right? Um so
[02:57:20] the the things that happened in Iraq
[02:57:23] never went away. There was still a need
[02:57:24] for bodies on a bird, you know,
[02:57:28] doing things from the air.
[02:57:31] And there was one particular deployment
[02:57:34] where
[02:57:35] we were and everything I'm about to say
[02:57:40] has been written down and discussed by
[02:57:43] Admiral McCraven
[02:57:45] um in his books and um and on various
[02:57:50] podcasts. So I feel okay talking about
[02:57:53] it. So we were on a deployment to Horn
[02:57:56] of Africa and
[02:58:02] let's say I stumble across like in the
[02:58:04] course of like working my targets
[02:58:07] this guy and it I see the the guy's name
[02:58:12] pop up on my gear and it's uh Salai Ali
[02:58:16] Salai Nabhan
[02:58:18] and you know every time I get a a good
[02:58:21] hit I call it down and it's no big
[02:58:25] thing, right? It's like whatever. Some
[02:58:27] some of the [ __ ] goes, some of it
[02:58:28] doesn't go, whatever. Um, especially
[02:58:32] when you're not in Iraq and Afghanistan,
[02:58:34] like some of the [ __ ] is just long burn.
[02:58:36] You know what I mean?
[02:58:38] This particular one I called down and
[02:58:40] they were like, "Are you absolutely
[02:58:43] [ __ ] sure that
[02:58:47] this is the guy that you're you're
[02:58:49] getting data about right now?" I was
[02:58:52] like,
[02:58:55] "Rarely am I wrong about like what
[02:58:57] [ __ ] target I'm looking at, but yes,
[02:59:00] I'm pretty sure."
[02:59:03] Um, and they're like, "Say your uh
[02:59:11] just trying to make sure, you know, I
[02:59:12] say things
[02:59:15] properly here. Say your load out." Um
[02:59:19] cuz we we had kinetic strike capability
[02:59:21] at the time on uh on the platform I was
[02:59:24] on and I was like what the [ __ ] who is
[02:59:28] who the [ __ ] is this dude? Like I they
[02:59:30] they've never told us that in the past
[02:59:32] you know it's always let's work let's
[02:59:34] build this package and maybe we'll pass
[02:59:36] it off to some inter agency whatever
[02:59:38] they'll handle it.
[02:59:40] Not so in this case they're like say
[02:59:42] your [ __ ] load out and say say your
[02:59:43] uh
[02:59:45] say your fuel. I was like, "Oh [ __ ]
[02:59:48] it's on, dude. I don't know who this
[02:59:49] [ __ ] guy is, but all of a sudden,
[02:59:51] everyone's very interested."
[02:59:54] Um,
[02:59:57] so I continue to to to track this
[03:00:00] individual and then they launch a uh a
[03:00:05] relief bird
[03:00:07] to swap out places with us. They come
[03:00:09] in, they take over on station, we roll
[03:00:11] back to to where we were stationing
[03:00:13] from.
[03:00:15] We land and I'm like, "What the [ __ ] is
[03:00:17] going on with this dude?" This guy was
[03:00:21] like on the FBI's most wanted list and
[03:00:24] he's been on it since 1998
[03:00:27] uh for questioning
[03:00:30] based on his uh I I guess he was one of
[03:00:33] the senior planners for the Kenya and
[03:00:36] Tanzania embassy bombings in 98. Like I
[03:00:40] guess he was like one of the [ __ ]
[03:00:41] head honchos that planned that [ __ ] you
[03:00:43] know, they drove these suicide these
[03:00:45] VBIDs
[03:00:47] uh into the embassies in in Kenya and
[03:00:50] Tanzania. So, this guy's been on the run
[03:00:52] since then, basically. And, you know, he
[03:00:54] was like the FBI had like a bounty out
[03:00:56] for him and everything. So, we just
[03:00:59] [ __ ] stumbled across this dude. Many
[03:01:02] years later, I'm talking to a buddy of
[03:01:04] mine and um
[03:01:07] from from a from an inter agency partner
[03:01:10] and
[03:01:12] I'm telling him this story and he was
[03:01:14] like, "Wait,
[03:01:16] Nabon?" I was like, "Yeah, dude." He was
[03:01:18] like, "I tried to find that [ __ ] for
[03:01:21] years."
[03:01:22] I was like, "Should have done better." I
[03:01:25] rolled in and [ __ ] got his ass um
[03:01:29] right after you. But again, I I just But
[03:01:32] there was a there's a giant [ __ ] team
[03:01:33] behind it and the the crews that I was
[03:01:36] working with and so on. I just happen to
[03:01:37] be the [ __ ] guy working the gear. Um,
[03:01:40] so we land, this guy is a [ __ ] head
[03:01:42] honcho.
[03:01:44] Uh, and so there's an entire effort that
[03:01:46] starts spinning up to figure out how to
[03:01:51] prosecute this guy. And it's not an easy
[03:01:54] problem because he's
[03:01:58] his location is on the coast of [ __ ]
[03:02:00] Somalia.
[03:02:01] >> Holy [ __ ]
[03:02:04] Um,
[03:02:05] >> I'm pretty sure we've talked about this
[03:02:06] op before on this show.
[03:02:10] Um, yeah.
[03:02:12] >> Did they swipe in?
[03:02:13] >> Uh, no, not that one.
[03:02:15] >> Okay.
[03:02:16] >> They, uh, yeah, we we'll get to we'll
[03:02:18] get to how it all went down.
[03:02:24] Now, many years later, I'm listening to
[03:02:27] Jaco. You know, I got his [ __ ] hunt in
[03:02:30] the kitchen. and I'm like making dinner
[03:02:31] or some [ __ ] and Admiral Craven's on
[03:02:33] there and he starts talking about this
[03:02:37] op in Somalia where they found this guy
[03:02:39] Knoban and I'm like what the [ __ ]
[03:02:43] and I start listening to his description
[03:02:46] of what was going on
[03:02:48] and on that Jaco episode mccraven
[03:02:51] basically describes all the [ __ ] that
[03:02:54] was going down from his perspective
[03:02:57] as the the CG G
[03:03:01] with the president and Secretary Clinton
[03:03:04] and all of this [ __ ] He's at the White
[03:03:06] House and he's playing [ __ ] 4D chess
[03:03:10] and I'm like one for one mapping it with
[03:03:12] all the [ __ ] that was going on downrange
[03:03:15] and he's telling me the other side of
[03:03:16] the story uh on this podcast.
[03:03:20] So that was really [ __ ] wild to put
[03:03:23] the two pieces of information together
[03:03:24] and get like this full picture of what
[03:03:26] went down with that thing.
[03:03:29] So
[03:03:31] we uh so McCraven after we we find the
[03:03:35] initial hit on the dude. So we like it
[03:03:37] we like the initial find fix
[03:03:40] the dude like disappears like so the
[03:03:42] second bird comes on and the dude just
[03:03:44] [ __ ] goes dark right and now
[03:03:47] everyone's pissed. They're like go
[03:03:48] [ __ ] get him like go find him again.
[03:03:50] We're going to launch and relaunch you
[03:03:52] guys until you [ __ ] get his ass
[03:03:54] again. While all that's going down,
[03:03:58] McCraven is playing 4D chess with the
[03:04:00] White House, and you know, he's going to
[03:04:03] say it a lot better on on the on the
[03:04:06] Jaco episode, but he's basically
[03:04:08] convincing
[03:04:10] POTUS and Hillary Clinton to forward
[03:04:14] stage uh a helicopter assault force off
[03:04:17] the coast of Somalia.
[03:04:20] But he's doing it in a way that's
[03:04:22] couched through the lens of counter
[03:04:24] piracy. because Captain Phillips had
[03:04:26] just went down. You know, you had Pete
[03:04:28] Scoble on the show recently. All that
[03:04:31] [ __ ] went down. So, there was a lot of
[03:04:32] credibility for for the task force at
[03:04:34] the time and its ability to operate in
[03:04:37] that AO, right? So, McCraven kind of
[03:04:39] rode off of that Captain Phillips thing
[03:04:43] and he's like, you know, and everyone
[03:04:46] everyone is thinking, you know,
[03:04:48] Blackhawk Down part two. Like, we don't
[03:04:49] want we don't no one wants Mogadishu
[03:04:52] part two. Um and that and that's the
[03:04:55] concern on everyone's mind.
[03:04:58] And he's like, "All right, you know, we
[03:05:00] don't have to put boots on the ground.
[03:05:02] Uh we we and and they're like, I don't
[03:05:07] per McCraven, the president did not want
[03:05:10] helicopters to do the final hit. Like
[03:05:13] they wanted like a a kinetic strike,
[03:05:16] like a long range kinetic strike.
[03:05:20] Um,
[03:05:21] so we furiously on the other side of the
[03:05:23] equation start trying to [ __ ] find
[03:05:25] this dude. And so we're just trolling
[03:05:27] the coast of Somalia back and forth,
[03:05:30] back and forth trying to look for this
[03:05:32] [ __ ] guy.
[03:05:34] And I'm looking, you know, I'm looking
[03:05:35] out the the windows and, you know, I'm
[03:05:38] looking at the imagery. Um, so I've got
[03:05:40] like an imagery operator that I'm
[03:05:42] working with and we're very tightly in
[03:05:43] sync. um like if I if I see some [ __ ]
[03:05:46] with my data, I'm like telling him what
[03:05:48] to look at down there and we're trying
[03:05:50] to put these two pieces of intelligence
[03:05:52] together and um and have it be
[03:05:54] actionable in some capacity.
[03:05:56] And we're looking down there and we're,
[03:05:58] you know, we're seeing downtown
[03:05:59] Moadisha, you know, you can literally
[03:06:01] see the the corners where the like
[03:06:05] Durant Hilo went down. Uh you know, cuz
[03:06:07] I've got GRGs, you know, I can see where
[03:06:09] all this [ __ ] is.
[03:06:10] >> And I'm like, this is really [ __ ]
[03:06:12] wild. I I remember watching Blackhawk
[03:06:14] Down when I was a I was a teenager
[03:06:17] and um I was like now
[03:06:21] there's all the there's all the [ __ ]
[03:06:23] sites down there.
[03:06:25] >> Um
[03:06:27] and in the meantime the uh so the they
[03:06:31] they park like an LHC off the coast of
[03:06:33] Somalia. Uh it's like a flattop uh
[03:06:37] flattop amphibious vessel. They put you
[03:06:40] know hilos on it. They put the assault
[03:06:42] force on it. Um, and everyone's just
[03:06:45] waiting. Everyone's waiting for us to
[03:06:46] [ __ ] find this dude.
[03:06:50] Now, one thing that happens with some of
[03:06:52] these manned platforms is they start to
[03:06:55] treat you like predator drones. You
[03:06:57] know, you got guys that are 10,000 miles
[03:07:00] away and trying to tell you like, "Hey,
[03:07:01] go here. Go there. Go here. Go there."
[03:07:03] Um, and I don't like being treated like
[03:07:06] a [ __ ] predator drone because I'm
[03:07:08] not. Um, I have, you know, I I know the
[03:07:11] area. I've studied the [ __ ] GRGs. I
[03:07:13] know exactly which roads lead out from
[03:07:15] Mogadishu to which town. I know the like
[03:07:18] there's a coastal road over here.
[03:07:20] There's villages over there. And I I
[03:07:23] generally know like what this dude has
[03:07:26] been doing in the past and I'm able to
[03:07:28] extrapolate that that out into the
[03:07:30] future. I I say me again, I'm the one
[03:07:32] being being interviewed sitting here,
[03:07:33] but it was it was definitely a a crew of
[03:07:36] [ __ ] people, all of whom some of whom
[03:07:38] will be watching this episode and you
[03:07:41] know, all of them were instrumental in
[03:07:43] making this happen.
[03:07:45] And we're circling overhead one day and
[03:07:49] then we we get we get a hit on this
[03:07:52] [ __ ] dude again. And
[03:07:55] uh he he pops back up,
[03:07:59] but we don't know where he is. Like he's
[03:08:01] he's a it's a big [ __ ] urban area.
[03:08:04] And I'm like, "All right."
[03:08:09] I'm like, "Hey, pilot, you know, put us
[03:08:12] over
[03:08:14] put us over the southern end of the
[03:08:17] outskirts of Moadishu. There's only
[03:08:19] three roads that depart coming out of
[03:08:22] there.
[03:08:23] and I had a feeling he was going to move
[03:08:26] south.
[03:08:28] Um, you know, I can't get into why I
[03:08:31] felt that way, but you know, there was
[03:08:32] there were indications that he had
[03:08:34] business down south.
[03:08:36] And so I was like, there's only three
[03:08:38] [ __ ] roads that that go out of this
[03:08:40] town towards those southern towns on the
[03:08:42] coast. Like, let's let's just park
[03:08:43] overhead. And
[03:08:46] what we need to do is wait until we can
[03:08:49] correlate what we see on the imagery
[03:08:50] with what I'm seeing on on my [ __ ]
[03:08:55] And so then the the [ __ ] geniuses
[03:08:57] back at HQ or wherever the [ __ ] they
[03:09:00] were are like, "Oh, well, we need you to
[03:09:04] move to this other tasking over here."
[03:09:06] I'm like, "No, no, no. There's no other
[03:09:08] tasking. Like I give me some more time.
[03:09:11] like I'm I'm going to figure out like
[03:09:13] where this dude is. I I just trust me. I
[03:09:15] have a I have a feeling. I have an
[03:09:16] intuition here. They're like, "No, we
[03:09:18] need to move to like western like inland
[03:09:22] or whatever." I'm like, "Just give me 30
[03:09:25] [ __ ] minutes. Okay, give me 30
[03:09:27] minutes and I think we can make this
[03:09:28] happen."
[03:09:30] And then and then we see it. A lone
[03:09:33] little SUV starts driving down one of
[03:09:36] the [ __ ] three roads down south from
[03:09:38] Moog. And
[03:09:41] then my imagery guy is like, "Yo, black
[03:09:44] SUV, got it. What do you got?" I start
[03:09:47] looking at my [ __ ] And the idea here
[03:09:49] is, is my [ __ ] saying that this dude is
[03:09:52] moving south?
[03:09:54] Cuz if it does,
[03:09:57] we got him. We got his [ __ ] vehicle,
[03:09:59] right?
[03:10:02] He's moving and he's moving south.
[03:10:04] [ __ ] correlation between
[03:10:07] between the two. uh you know,
[03:10:11] uh pieces of kit. So then the whole
[03:10:14] [ __ ] machine like just gets
[03:10:18] amped up. Um they they start figuring
[03:10:22] out, okay, what are we going to do? you
[03:10:24] start constant like just continuous
[03:10:26] Overwatch.
[03:10:28] And the plan is
[03:10:30] um
[03:10:32] McCraven has somehow convinced the the
[03:10:36] people at the White House that okay,
[03:10:38] we're going to do a long range kinetic
[03:10:40] strike from this platform we have.
[03:10:44] But let's just send in one or two birds
[03:10:49] to do like uh uh an analysis of uh like
[03:10:53] a P of the dude, right? Like it would
[03:10:55] suck to have this guy be on the FBI's
[03:10:57] most wanted list and then we go through
[03:10:58] all this effort and then not even
[03:11:01] confirm that it's him, right? Like
[03:11:02] >> guys, wouldn't that suck?
[03:11:04] >> Yes, it would. All right, so let me put
[03:11:06] some guys down real quick. We'll do the
[03:11:07] P. We'll [ __ ] get get out of dodge.
[03:11:11] >> So then it turns into this very tight
[03:11:14] synchronized maneuver that needs to go
[03:11:16] down. And um and basically it's like
[03:11:21] get wait until the dude gets to a
[03:11:24] location where we can execute the strike
[03:11:27] and then
[03:11:29] 30 seconds later lead Hilo is going to
[03:11:33] come in, drop the guys, you know, and
[03:11:37] nobody wants boots on the ground in
[03:11:38] Somalia. Like at at this point it's
[03:11:40] 2009, right? Um some of that other [ __ ]
[03:11:42] that you were talking about hadn't
[03:11:44] happened yet.
[03:11:46] Uh, and you know, they're in and out in
[03:11:47] less than 10 minutes. All right. So, by
[03:11:50] this point, we I've run out of fuel and
[03:11:52] uh or my crew has run out of fuel. So,
[03:11:54] pilot's like, "We gotta we got to
[03:11:55] [ __ ] get back home."
[03:11:57] Um, we we go back to the staging area.
[03:12:01] Other relief crew comes in, takes over,
[03:12:04] is uh is watching watching the guy, and
[03:12:07] then he triggers all the all the
[03:12:09] criteria to to make this thing go.
[03:12:11] Right. And by this point, we've got some
[03:12:14] combat controllers that um that have
[03:12:16] basically come forward with us. They're
[03:12:19] going to call in the final uh fires.
[03:12:23] So then I don't know if you've like
[03:12:25] spent time in East Africa, but the you
[03:12:28] know the idea is okay lays lays this
[03:12:31] [ __ ] thing and then put a put
[03:12:34] ordinance down on it. of all the [ __ ]
[03:12:37] days for a cloud deck to roll in from
[03:12:40] the Indian Ocean into the east coast of
[03:12:42] Somalia, this was the [ __ ] day. And
[03:12:44] so by this point I'm back in the talk
[03:12:47] and um I'm watching everything go down
[03:12:51] on the screens [ __ ] you know ISR TV
[03:12:55] and uh and the guys are getting ready to
[03:12:58] release and you know you can see the
[03:13:00] target down uh he's just booking it down
[03:13:04] this coastal road in Somalia and um and
[03:13:07] then the [ __ ] cloud deck comes in and
[03:13:08] it's the cloud deck comes in these
[03:13:10] bands, right? So, it's like one band of
[03:13:12] clouds, it'll pass through. Another band
[03:13:13] of clouds, it'll pass through. Every
[03:13:15] time one of those [ __ ] bands comes
[03:13:16] in,
[03:13:17] >> the CCT is not going to let that, you
[03:13:19] know, warhead go.
[03:13:22] >> Um, so this is happening. The crew is
[03:13:25] calling it down.
[03:13:27] You know, negative lock, negative lock,
[03:13:29] negative lock, cuz the [ __ ] clouds
[03:13:31] are coming in by this point.
[03:13:33] uh the GFC on the lead hilo. They've
[03:13:37] already like launched because they're
[03:13:39] expecting us to [ __ ] hit this thing
[03:13:41] and they're coming in over the ocean and
[03:13:44] they're like 30 seconds out from the
[03:13:46] coast. And the GFC calls McCraven who's
[03:13:50] sitting at the White House. He's like,
[03:13:51] "I need [ __ ] authority to like abort
[03:13:53] the strike and come in with guns." And
[03:13:56] McCraven's like talking to the
[03:13:57] president. Uh and he's like, "No, like I
[03:14:01] want this. I want the kinetic strike.
[03:14:03] You guys only do the the P.
[03:14:07] Clouds come in like lasers, lasers in,
[03:14:11] lasers out, lasers in, lasers out.
[03:14:13] Shit's not happening. Combat controller
[03:14:15] on board's like, "This shit's not
[03:14:16] happening. We're going to abort." GFC is
[03:14:18] like, "Boss, I need [ __ ] authority to
[03:14:22] go in with guns. We're [ __ ] seconds
[03:14:24] out from this target."
[03:14:27] McCraven's like, "Fuck it. Switch to
[03:14:30] guns. Get them. We'll deal deal with the
[03:14:32] fallout later. Lead Hilo comes in. We're
[03:14:35] all us guys at the talk are watching all
[03:14:37] the [ __ ] go down, but the the crew that
[03:14:38] was overhead is um is kind of talking
[03:14:41] them in. They come in, they blast the
[03:14:44] guy. Um and then they set down.
[03:14:50] Then ISR moves off cuz you know you got
[03:14:52] to you got to clean up and they move in
[03:14:56] do the P and um and then head back to to
[03:15:01] the ship.
[03:15:02] And
[03:15:05] they get back to the ship. P confirms
[03:15:07] solid knob [ __ ] jackpot. So all of
[03:15:12] that to say it was a it was a complex
[03:15:17] operation that in Iraq or Afghanistan
[03:15:21] would have been just another op on any
[03:15:23] other night. But for it to go down off
[03:15:26] the coast of Somalia in 2009 required
[03:15:29] this choreography that I've never seen
[03:15:31] before in my life. Right? It's like you
[03:15:33] need to convince the [ __ ] president
[03:15:35] to let you put an LHC off the coast. I
[03:15:38] think there were a couple of other um I
[03:15:40] think we had some carrier strike group
[03:15:42] over there and it was all because of the
[03:15:43] counter piracy [ __ ] that was going on
[03:15:45] back in the day. Um the c the
[03:15:48] synchronization between the the platform
[03:15:50] and uh and the Hilo assault force
[03:15:55] last like literally 10 seconds out
[03:15:57] switching to [ __ ] guns on the lead
[03:16:00] Hilo and uh and making it happen. All of
[03:16:02] that was really, really insane to watch
[03:16:07] go down. And I was like, this is this is
[03:16:14] I feel like I'm part of something that
[03:16:17] is just important. Th this is a [ __ ]
[03:16:20] group of people doing important [ __ ] all
[03:16:23] around the world all the time. And I'm
[03:16:26] humbled to be a part of it. I'm proud to
[03:16:28] be a part of it.
[03:16:30] Um, after the strike went down, I go
[03:16:33] outside. I sit outside the uh the talk
[03:16:35] and it's nighttime and uh as the crew
[03:16:39] comes back, um the the pilot drops the
[03:16:42] the bird down and does like a little Top
[03:16:46] Gun Maverick [ __ ] tower buzz right
[03:16:49] like 50 ft above the talk.
[03:16:51] >> And um I was like this I I just felt
[03:16:55] like
[03:16:56] whole, you know,
[03:16:57] >> it's [ __ ] badass. and we sat around,
[03:17:00] had a little bonfire that night and um
[03:17:03] and and that was that was cool. A couple
[03:17:06] months later, I get a phone call sitting
[03:17:08] in the office back at uh back at the
[03:17:10] squadron and
[03:17:13] they're like, "Hey, uh CG's coming in
[03:17:16] and he uh he wants to, you know, he
[03:17:19] wants to like have a meeting with you
[03:17:22] guys or whatever." I'm like, "The [ __ ]
[03:17:24] for like whatever, dude. I'm in I'm in
[03:17:26] civilian clothes and I'm and they're
[03:17:28] like, "You got to change in the uniform
[03:17:29] and get your ass over here." I'm like,
[03:17:30] "God damn it." I put my flight suit on
[03:17:33] and I go go to the other building where
[03:17:36] this is going down. And I see the crews
[03:17:38] from this op like all lined up and [ __ ]
[03:17:40] and they're like, "Bro, like get the
[03:17:42] [ __ ] up on stage like McCraven wants to
[03:17:44] like give all of us a thing." I'm like,
[03:17:49] "Okay, cool, man."
[03:17:52] Um,
[03:17:54] so he goes and he shakes everyone's hand
[03:17:56] and he's like, you know, this this is
[03:17:58] uh, you know, this is a prime example of
[03:18:01] us being able to reach out and touch
[03:18:03] people in complex AO's where, you know,
[03:18:05] we don't have the the footprint that we
[03:18:07] do everywhere else. And you know, he's
[03:18:09] congratulating us. He goes to the
[03:18:11] pilots, he goes to the the um the load
[03:18:14] master. And then he he gets to me and
[03:18:17] and there's one there's one dude next to
[03:18:19] me and he's the [ __ ] imagery
[03:18:21] operator.
[03:18:24] And we call this guy magic man because
[03:18:26] like he uh he used to like really like
[03:18:30] doing like magic tricks and [ __ ] and you
[03:18:32] just like pass the time doing that. He's
[03:18:34] kind of a skinny like nerdy looking
[03:18:35] dude.
[03:18:37] Um, so we'd make fun of him a lot. And
[03:18:40] so McCraven gets to me and he puts his
[03:18:42] hand out and he's like, "So which one of
[03:18:44] you was the trigger man?" Like the which
[03:18:47] one of you was a sensor operator that
[03:18:48] that was the trigger man? And I was
[03:18:51] like, "This is a really awkward
[03:18:53] question. I don't want to say it's me
[03:18:54] because it was like a team effort, you
[03:18:56] know, and so I'm hesitating because I
[03:18:58] don't I don't want to be that forward."
[03:19:03] Magic man over here speaks up and was
[03:19:04] like, "It was me.
[03:19:08] Must have been a Navy guy.
[03:19:10] >> Yeah.
[03:19:11] >> So, McCraven McCraven's like he like
[03:19:13] loses interest with me like [ __ ] goes
[03:19:16] to this dude and he's like and then he
[03:19:18] gives him like the [ __ ] CG's coin and
[03:19:21] uh I'm like whatever, you know, in the
[03:19:23] grand scheme of things. And so then the
[03:19:26] ceremony concludes, we get off stage and
[03:19:30] I turn and look at this [ __ ] dude.
[03:19:32] I'm like,
[03:19:34] and he's like, "What?" And I'm like,
[03:19:38] "Bro, you got something for me?" And he
[03:19:40] was like, "Oh, you should have spoken
[03:19:43] up, bro. Sorry, but good ceremony,
[03:19:45] right?" And then he just [ __ ] off with
[03:19:47] his [ __ ] CG's coin. I was like, "You
[03:19:50] son of a
[03:19:50] >> Are you serious?"
[03:19:52] >> Holy [ __ ]
[03:19:54] >> Um,
[03:19:55] >> wow.
[03:19:57] >> Well, that's still pretty [ __ ]
[03:19:59] badass. Yeah, that was
[03:20:01] >> pretty. That is badass.
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[03:22:14] All right, Nick, we're back from the
[03:22:16] break. I forgot a couple things. cuz I
[03:22:18] got too excited about the interview. So,
[03:22:20] uh, just two things to crank out here
[03:22:22] real quick. One, I got a Patreon
[03:22:25] account. It's a subscription account
[03:22:27] and, uh, we've turned it into quite the
[03:22:30] community. I think it's like 125,000
[03:22:32] strong now. And, um, they're the reason
[03:22:35] I get to sit down with you today. So,
[03:22:38] they get the opportunity to ask every
[03:22:40] single guest a question. And this is
[03:22:42] from Jesse Meadows.
[03:22:45] Where is the real line today between
[03:22:47] cyber security and mass surveillance?
[03:22:50] Who decides when it's crossed? And what
[03:22:52] assumptions or blind spots in these
[03:22:54] systems still exist that citizens should
[03:22:57] understand before the infrastructure
[03:22:59] becomes irreversible?
[03:23:02] Yeah, that's actually a great question.
[03:23:05] Um so
[03:23:08] I think the lines are easily blurred
[03:23:11] between cyber defense, cyber security
[03:23:14] and surveillance and we can start at a
[03:23:17] very small scale and then extrapolate up
[03:23:19] to national scale if we wish. So if we
[03:23:22] take a small company or a medium-sized
[03:23:25] company and if you really want to do
[03:23:28] cyber defense in the best possible way
[03:23:31] that you could do it then ideally you
[03:23:35] have as many sensors and taps and
[03:23:39] collectors of data that you can possibly
[03:23:41] have spread throughout the organization.
[03:23:45] Now that is a massive privacy violation
[03:23:48] if you go too overboard with it.
[03:23:52] So I think as with many things and then
[03:23:54] extrapolate that out to national scale,
[03:23:56] right? It's like all the all of the
[03:23:58] things that Snowden was up in arms about
[03:24:01] many years ago
[03:24:03] were a function of
[03:24:06] people trying to do
[03:24:12] people trying to do
[03:24:15] the right things for the right reasons
[03:24:16] but going about it the wrong way. Let's
[03:24:18] say
[03:24:20] um when I was
[03:24:23] the chief information security officer
[03:24:25] at Androl,
[03:24:27] I could have probably gotten leadership
[03:24:29] to buy off on all right, we're just
[03:24:31] going to put key loggers on everybody's
[03:24:34] machine and we're just going to record
[03:24:36] everything that they do. But we didn't.
[03:24:39] Um, and the reason we didn't is because
[03:24:44] there's a conscious decision that need
[03:24:46] that always needs to be made with these
[03:24:48] sets of tools
[03:24:50] that comes down to
[03:24:53] are we turning into [ __ ] [ __ ] or
[03:24:55] not by using these things.
[03:24:57] >> Mhm.
[03:24:57] >> It's like that's a fuzzy way of putting
[03:24:59] it, right? But ultimately it comes down
[03:25:01] to that. And with all things human, I
[03:25:05] think it comes down to people in
[03:25:08] leadership positions that are willing to
[03:25:11] stick their [ __ ] asses out there and
[03:25:14] draw lines in the sand in accordance
[03:25:16] with their own morality and say, "Okay,
[03:25:20] here's what I think are the left and
[03:25:22] right limits for how to use a technology
[03:25:24] like this in a proper and ethical way
[03:25:27] while achieving the objectives that
[03:25:30] we've set out to to achieve. which is in
[03:25:34] Andre's case the security of the
[03:25:36] enterprise and the weapon systems and
[03:25:38] the employees and and all of it without
[03:25:42] going overboard into um
[03:25:47] authoritarianism.
[03:25:48] I think every I think all roads except
[03:25:53] very few lead to authoritarianism given
[03:25:57] any kind of tool technology
[03:26:01] capability that humans have access to. I
[03:26:03] think all of them at the limit can be
[03:26:06] used for just evil [ __ ] and the
[03:26:09] application of control over others. So
[03:26:12] all that to say,
[03:26:15] cyber security tools are tools,
[03:26:19] the humans that are using them
[03:26:23] need to make good decisions about how to
[03:26:25] use them
[03:26:26] >> and achieve the the goals that they that
[03:26:28] they're trying to achieve. And it's easy
[03:26:30] to get carried away by saying the
[03:26:34] the means um or what is that [ __ ]
[03:26:38] saying that the the ends uh
[03:26:42] >> I don't know this one.
[03:26:45] >> It's like you know the ends justify the
[03:26:47] means, right? That's that's what I'm
[03:26:48] trying to get at. It's easy to say that
[03:26:50] and just go overboard,
[03:26:54] but I think one thing to keep in mind is
[03:27:00] China said that too.
[03:27:03] And they have a society where everything
[03:27:06] is
[03:27:08] under the surveillance
[03:27:10] umbrella that they've set up as a state.
[03:27:13] every person's actions are run through
[03:27:15] that umbrella, turned into an algorithm
[03:27:18] and used for
[03:27:21] very authoritarian purposes. And
[03:27:24] whatever the actions are in front of us
[03:27:26] that don't set us down that path,
[03:27:30] that's at least a good first step, I
[03:27:31] think. Um,
[03:27:35] does this stuff all worry you?
[03:27:38] >> Yeah, dude. Yeah, worries me a lot. Um,
[03:27:46] yeah. I mean, technology is capable of
[03:27:50] some insane things these day. I mean, I
[03:27:53] I'm honestly very surprised that we
[03:27:57] don't have a social credit system in the
[03:28:00] United States that is driven by the
[03:28:03] Experians and the TransUnions and the
[03:28:05] the [ __ ] credit reporting agencies.
[03:28:09] um because that would make their lives
[03:28:10] so much easier. It's like if they just
[03:28:12] had more data on you and what you're
[03:28:14] doing on a day in and dayout basis, that
[03:28:16] made it a lot easier for them to
[03:28:18] understand, you know, whether you're a
[03:28:20] good good citizen with good credit or
[03:28:23] not. I think without checks and balances
[03:28:27] in place,
[03:28:29] we certainly have the capabilities to
[03:28:31] get there. I think the only thing
[03:28:32] keeping us back is
[03:28:37] the the pillars that are basically
[03:28:40] holding us up as a western society. Some
[03:28:42] of those pillars are crumbling fast.
[03:28:45] Some people would like to see them
[03:28:46] crumbled fast.
[03:28:49] But I think the reason that we don't
[03:28:51] have such an authoritarian system in
[03:28:54] place as the United States of America is
[03:28:58] because that just goes against our
[03:29:00] spirit and ideals as a society
[03:29:05] >> and as American citizens. Other
[03:29:08] countries have no such compunctions. So
[03:29:11] you can say all the [ __ ] you want about
[03:29:13] America and all the evil [ __ ] that it's
[03:29:16] done. And maybe we have. Maybe we
[03:29:18] [ __ ] have. We're the only country
[03:29:19] that that's dropped nuclear [ __ ]
[03:29:21] bombs on people, right?
[03:29:25] But at the same time, I mean, look at
[03:29:26] the picture of you on that helicopter
[03:29:28] over Afghanistan, dude. Like if there
[03:29:30] were if you landed on the X
[03:29:34] and you saw some [ __ ] kids
[03:29:39] and you got you know you you guys did
[03:29:42] your job and
[03:29:45] you know you were trying to figure out
[03:29:46] what to do with these with these kids.
[03:29:49] You know you're not going to just take
[03:29:50] them out back and smoke them, right?
[03:29:53] Maybe the [ __ ] Russians would have
[03:29:54] done that. Maybe the Chinese would have
[03:29:56] done that. But one thing I think that is
[03:29:59] an invariant is that a [ __ ] dude
[03:30:02] wearing the stars and stripes on their
[03:30:04] chest.
[03:30:07] It's just very difficult to imagine
[03:30:10] that dude doing that. You know, there
[03:30:13] there's something about the the morals
[03:30:16] that we have as a society and that we
[03:30:19] carry with us into all these shitty
[03:30:21] complicated situations
[03:30:24] that that speaks for itself. Those
[03:30:30] men are men of the people.
[03:30:39] >> You know what I mean?
[03:30:40] >> Yeah.
[03:30:42] >> Explain
[03:30:50] those men.
[03:31:02] are doing something that they truly
[03:31:04] [ __ ] believe in.
[03:31:05] >> Yeah.
[03:31:07] >> That 100%
[03:31:10] or close aligns with their values, you
[03:31:13] know, 100%.
[03:31:16] You know, the ones that that start to
[03:31:18] think otherwise, they leave, you know.
[03:31:24] the people that we're talking about, you
[03:31:26] know, that that that that have the
[03:31:28] ability for mass surveillance, stuff
[03:31:30] like that. I mean, those are powerful
[03:31:32] powerful
[03:31:34] elite, rich
[03:31:36] >> Yeah.
[03:31:37] >> wealthy people.
[03:31:41] I think those are
[03:31:43] that that that that
[03:31:45] shouldn't be but seem to be more easily
[03:31:48] influenced by more power
[03:31:50] >> and more wealth. Yeah,
[03:31:52] >> but mostly power.
[03:31:53] >> Yeah, I agree with you. I I think at a
[03:31:57] societal scale,
[03:32:00] I think it's
[03:32:03] I
[03:32:04] >> for example, the Epstein files drop.
[03:32:06] >> Yeah. Yep.
[03:32:08] >> The spirit of America wants those
[03:32:11] [ __ ] files released. Now,
[03:32:14] the elites of America are doing
[03:32:17] everything they can to [ __ ] hide this
[03:32:19] [ __ ] from everybody. Yeah,
[03:32:22] >> because it was a power structure thing.
[03:32:24] >> Yep. Yeah, I agree, man. I think at
[03:32:27] national levels and at societal levels,
[03:32:32] I think there's
[03:32:35] there's a dark undercurrent of elites
[03:32:40] that
[03:32:41] really don't fall on any one
[03:32:44] side of the partisan spectrum. I feel
[03:32:47] like
[03:32:48] they're in it
[03:32:50] to sustain their elitism.
[03:32:53] >> Goes back to good and evil.
[03:32:55] >> Yep.
[03:32:58] >> Yep.
[03:33:00] So, to answer uh Jesse's question,
[03:33:07] yeah, it could be very easily go
[03:33:08] sideways. It It could
[03:33:10] >> What do you think would happen if it
[03:33:11] does go sideways? How do you think
[03:33:13] people will I mean, they'll always find
[03:33:15] a way around it. We we going we going
[03:33:18] primitive
[03:33:19] >> at at national levels like like at
[03:33:20] societal level.
[03:33:21] >> A societal level. How do you find
[03:33:24] privacy
[03:33:25] when it does run away?
[03:33:28] Yeah. I think
[03:33:32] I think if we want to have true privacy
[03:33:34] in the future, we need to think very
[03:33:37] carefully about the sovereignty of
[03:33:40] the the data that we emit as part of our
[03:33:44] daily lives, right?
[03:33:47] Um, like one of the questions I was
[03:33:49] answering out there for for some of the
[03:33:51] Patreon folks was um, you know, what are
[03:33:54] your recommendations for cyber security
[03:33:57] as a society in 2026? And one of them
[03:34:00] was
[03:34:02] take the [ __ ] pictures of your loved
[03:34:03] ones down from the internet. Like these
[03:34:06] AI algorithms can do anything they want
[03:34:09] with those pictures. You basically put
[03:34:10] those out into the wild [ __ ] forest
[03:34:14] of the algorithms.
[03:34:16] So start taking that [ __ ] down. The the
[03:34:18] the olden days of like sharing pictures
[03:34:21] on Facebook and social media and all
[03:34:22] that [ __ ] Consider that gone. Like take
[03:34:24] pictures of you down. Take pictures of
[03:34:26] your loved ones down.
[03:34:28] And the reason for that is what you want
[03:34:31] to start doing is preserving
[03:34:34] sovereignty of the data that belongs to
[03:34:38] you. And it's a foreign concept to us as
[03:34:40] human beings, right? Cuz we're not wired
[03:34:43] to think about our digital exhaust and
[03:34:45] our digital footprint and all this [ __ ]
[03:34:48] Um, but we better start thinking about
[03:34:50] it cuz
[03:34:53] when we don't, someone else is going to
[03:34:55] suck that up and have their way with it.
[03:34:59] One of the reasons I'm wearing this hat
[03:35:00] is because
[03:35:03] um Josh Clementi, the founder of Levels,
[03:35:08] he started Levels, which is a metabolic
[03:35:10] health company to
[03:35:12] give people the ability to control their
[03:35:14] own medical data, not siphon it off to
[03:35:16] some [ __ ] insurance company or some
[03:35:19] lab or some whatever. It's like, this
[03:35:22] data is coming off my body and I own it
[03:35:25] and I get to do whatever the [ __ ] I want
[03:35:27] with it. I can put it into chat and AI
[03:35:29] if it if I want and I can get it to tell
[03:35:32] me to do it, you know, change my
[03:35:33] lifestyle or whatever or I can choose to
[03:35:36] freely send it somewhere else. But the
[03:35:38] point is it's one example of the fact
[03:35:41] that we we need to start thinking about
[03:35:46] how we control the data that's
[03:35:49] that's emitted from our own lives.
[03:35:53] That sounds like an interesting company.
[03:35:55] Levels.
[03:35:57] Yeah, the um the founder and CEO uh Josh
[03:36:01] Clemeni
[03:36:03] um
[03:36:04] he worked on the life support systems on
[03:36:07] the Dragon spacecraft for SpaceX.
[03:36:11] Um so he he spent a lot of time working
[03:36:13] on on those subsystems and then took
[03:36:17] that skill set transferred it over to uh
[03:36:20] basically human metabolic quantification
[03:36:23] essentially. So, the things that you do
[03:36:25] on a day-to-day basis, the pack of chips
[03:36:26] that you just ate, how can you
[03:36:28] extrapolate that out into what that's
[03:36:30] going to mean for your health 5 years
[03:36:32] from now, 10 years from now. Um, and you
[03:36:37] know, that's a perfect use case for
[03:36:39] where data security is essential because
[03:36:43] you let that data get in the wrong
[03:36:44] hands.
[03:36:46] Okay? The instant you eat that pack of
[03:36:47] chips, well, TransUnion just, you know,
[03:36:50] drops your credit score 20 [ __ ]
[03:36:51] points. So, that's not a future I want
[03:36:54] to live in. Um,
[03:36:57] but yeah.
[03:36:58] >> Wow.
[03:37:00] >> All right, let's get back to your story.
[03:37:02] >> Yep.
[03:37:06] >> All right, so we
[03:37:07] >> Your son
[03:37:08] >> Yeah, my son was born 2011.
[03:37:12] Um,
[03:37:16] you know, it was
[03:37:21] it was it was something that I wish I
[03:37:24] could go back and
[03:37:27] relive.
[03:37:29] What I should have done was
[03:37:32] think very introspectively and deeply
[03:37:35] about
[03:37:38] how to
[03:37:40] not subject my son to any of the same
[03:37:45] [ __ ] that I had to contend with as a kid
[03:37:48] and as a teenager.
[03:37:51] Uh, and
[03:37:53] I I've tried to do that. You know,
[03:37:54] certainly I've
[03:37:58] I've been um
[03:38:01] probably the worst thing I've done is to
[03:38:03] just be away a lot. Um I was constantly
[03:38:07] deployed. Like months after he was born,
[03:38:09] I got the call from NSW and
[03:38:15] frankly a very personal like selfish
[03:38:18] decision was made. like, "Okay, I I
[03:38:22] started my military career out at
[03:38:24] [ __ ] 40,000 ft on these tin cans
[03:38:26] flying around the sky." Over the years,
[03:38:29] I got closer and closer and closer and
[03:38:32] closer to the fight. And I got really
[03:38:33] [ __ ] good
[03:38:35] at every one of those levels. And now
[03:38:37] I'm being asked
[03:38:39] to be out on the ground with these
[03:38:40] dudes.
[03:38:42] And I was like, there's no way I'm
[03:38:44] passing up on this. And
[03:38:49] was that the right decision? I don't
[03:38:51] know. I if I could go back, I wish I
[03:38:55] would have spent more time with him when
[03:38:57] he was
[03:38:59] young, when he was just a few months
[03:39:01] old.
[03:39:03] Instead, I
[03:39:06] um you know went to went to NSW, got
[03:39:11] secunded there.
[03:39:14] the the the history leading up to this
[03:39:17] was the fact that task force at the
[03:39:20] time,
[03:39:24] there was a lot of demand for active
[03:39:27] duty military members who spoke
[03:39:29] different languages and had all of the
[03:39:31] skill sets that I was coming to the
[03:39:33] table with. And my signal squadron had a
[03:39:38] lot of those [ __ ] people.
[03:39:41] And one thing that I would try and do,
[03:39:43] so by this point I was a I was a tech
[03:39:45] sergeant E6 um in the Air Force. One
[03:39:48] thing that I would try and do is
[03:39:52] convey to Air Force headquarters that
[03:39:56] the things going on in this place are
[03:39:59] important and the skill sets that we can
[03:40:02] bring to the table for this place are
[03:40:04] impactful. So don't hold us back or
[03:40:07] hamstring us and tell us this isn't our
[03:40:10] mission. This is not what we do. We
[03:40:13] don't roll out with these dudes. We
[03:40:15] don't do that. We don't do this. We do
[03:40:17] whatever the [ __ ] CG needs us to do.
[03:40:20] That's the reality of it.
[03:40:23] And the reality and the other reality
[03:40:25] was unfortunately the squadron at the
[03:40:27] time was sort of hamstrung by like three
[03:40:31] or four different lines of authority.
[03:40:32] You had task force,
[03:40:35] you had
[03:40:37] ASOC,
[03:40:39] you had
[03:40:41] this archaic cold war agency called the
[03:40:44] Air Force Intelligence Surveillance and
[03:40:45] Reconnaissance Agency of FISRA. This
[03:40:47] bureaucratic, bloated organization that
[03:40:50] all, you know, their bread and butter
[03:40:52] was flying [ __ ] SIG missions during
[03:40:54] the Cold War, right? Great. that you
[03:40:57] don't know [ __ ] about
[03:40:58] >> counterterrorism or find fix or all of
[03:41:01] the [ __ ] going on at this at this
[03:41:04] organization here.
[03:41:06] >> And they would um you know they would
[03:41:08] they would serve to just be a
[03:41:11] bureaucratic blocker to us all the time.
[03:41:14] And around halfway through my time at
[03:41:18] TAS, we finally broke through and
[03:41:21] we were like NSW
[03:41:23] came to find out some of the stuff that
[03:41:25] we could do. And they were like, "Hey,
[03:41:27] we got a need for, you know, some of you
[03:41:30] guys." And um so I got told, "Hey, be
[03:41:35] out on the ramp. uh we're we're going to
[03:41:39] have a plane coming for you and we're
[03:41:42] they're going to take you up to uh to
[03:41:44] Virginia Beach.
[03:41:47] Okay, cool. So I walk out on the ramp,
[03:41:50] plane comes and gets me, go to Virginia
[03:41:52] Beach and um
[03:41:56] I sit around and there's a bunch of team
[03:41:57] guys and um and I go through like sort
[03:42:02] of a screening process and um I ended up
[03:42:06] getting secunded there
[03:42:08] and now
[03:42:11] I was coming full circle. I, you know, I
[03:42:15] had spent my whole career wanting to get
[03:42:17] closer and closer to the fight and I was
[03:42:19] going to be in the [ __ ] fight
[03:42:23] on the ground with the guys. Um,
[03:42:28] so the the the mission for the next few
[03:42:31] years was essentially do the [ __ ]
[03:42:34] [ __ ] that you did in the air, but do it
[03:42:37] on the ground and do it in very very
[03:42:43] small teams,
[03:42:46] lone wolf if you needed to. Sometimes
[03:42:48] that was the case.
[03:42:50] Um,
[03:42:52] and I [ __ ] loved it, dude. And like
[03:42:55] should I have been back with my son?
[03:42:57] Yeah, probably. Um, one thing
[03:43:00] one regret I have is um I I would you
[03:43:04] know this character fly I have is when
[03:43:07] I'm on deployment I'm on deployment.
[03:43:08] Like I don't like
[03:43:11] >> you compartmentalize everything.
[03:43:12] >> Compartmentalize everything. I I don't
[03:43:14] want
[03:43:14] >> Shut it down.
[03:43:15] >> Yeah. I don't want to be on deployment
[03:43:17] and I'm thinking about my family back
[03:43:19] home and I'm I'm you know
[03:43:23] it's like pollutes different sides of
[03:43:25] your brain, you know? So, one way I
[03:43:28] dealt with that is, you know, I I would
[03:43:30] just spend weeks at a time just being in
[03:43:33] [ __ ] deployment mode.
[03:43:37] Um,
[03:43:39] which was cool, man. I mean, like some
[03:43:41] of the capabilities that we we got to
[03:43:44] bring to bear were like not organic to
[03:43:47] NSW. Like um like the fact that I could
[03:43:49] speak different languages, the fact that
[03:43:50] I could work some of the spec A gear
[03:43:52] that um that only a linguist would know
[03:43:55] how to work, right? I remember one time
[03:43:57] I walked into a joint and um you know
[03:44:00] the the team team area and uh there was
[03:44:04] like some kit in the corner and I was
[03:44:05] like, "Hey, is anyone using that [ __ ]
[03:44:07] thing?" And they were like, "No, we
[03:44:08] don't have anyone that speaks, you know,
[03:44:09] that oblas." So I was like, "I'll
[03:44:11] [ __ ] get on it." So then when I
[03:44:14] wasn't rolling out in the Hiluxes, I was
[03:44:16] on that [ __ ] thing with cans on and
[03:44:18] just
[03:44:20] all all the time I was either out or on
[03:44:22] that thing with the cans on and I felt
[03:44:24] like I had just this all my career had
[03:44:27] had led up to to this opportunity here.
[03:44:32] Now, I sacrificed,
[03:44:34] you know,
[03:44:36] I sacrificed communication with uh my
[03:44:40] family, my ex now,
[03:44:43] um with my with my son, with my
[03:44:46] stepdaughter.
[03:44:48] Uh and that's something I would I would
[03:44:49] go back and change. It's just
[03:44:54] I wrestle with this question to this
[03:44:56] day, like, was it all [ __ ] worth it,
[03:44:57] dude? like all the cool cool stories and
[03:44:59] like all this [ __ ] that I got to do with
[03:45:02] with NSW, all the all the work on the
[03:45:05] ground. Um,
[03:45:08] was it worth it for the sacrifices
[03:45:13] for the things that I did to my family
[03:45:15] in or in order to to make it happen?
[03:45:17] Like just all the deployments, all the
[03:45:19] being gone all the time. Man, I would I
[03:45:21] would get home from something from some
[03:45:24] trip and dude, you know how it is. get
[03:45:26] home from a trip and you just want to
[03:45:28] sustain that crack high, right? And so
[03:45:31] it's like, all right, what's up next?
[03:45:32] All right, driving school. Cool. Laundry
[03:45:34] pack. [ __ ] let's go
[03:45:38] some other [ __ ] I don't know,
[03:45:41] shooting. Yeah, let's go. Um,
[03:45:45] over and over and over again. And so
[03:45:47] then you just get into this
[03:45:50] cycle that you don't know how to break
[03:45:52] out of. and you're heading into a brick
[03:45:55] wall because you can be the coolest
[03:45:59] [ __ ] guy on the planet with you can
[03:46:03] be Mr. Air Force dude assigned to this
[03:46:05] this NSW squadron
[03:46:08] but that doesn't last forever
[03:46:11] and then you leave the machine goes on
[03:46:15] without you and now you're just a dude
[03:46:18] on the street.
[03:46:19] >> Okay, great. What has all of this been
[03:46:22] for? you know.
[03:46:25] Um,
[03:46:28] yeah. So, that that time with NSW, I
[03:46:30] mean, those guys treated me.
[03:46:32] Have you come to a conclusion?
[03:46:35] >> Was it worth it?
[03:46:44] I don't know, man. It's tough.
[03:46:48] You know, the biggest the biggest impact
[03:46:54] I had when I was with them was we were
[03:47:00] working these target packages to
[03:47:02] interdict this um EFP
[03:47:06] uh smuggling ring and it was uh it was
[03:47:10] targeting diplomatic personnel in in the
[03:47:12] AO that we were in. And so, you know,
[03:47:15] you
[03:47:17] you justify it in your mind, right?
[03:47:19] You're like, I'm focused on this [ __ ]
[03:47:21] because I'm trying to save the lives of
[03:47:25] these embassy personnel that are at risk
[03:47:28] because of
[03:47:30] this [ __ ]
[03:47:33] And then looking back at it, it's like,
[03:47:39] okay,
[03:47:42] bunch of people could have done that.
[03:47:45] Um,
[03:47:46] you know, I I was no one special.
[03:47:50] I don't know. I don't know is the
[03:47:52] answer.
[03:47:54] I think it all happened because I was
[03:47:57] meant to sit here
[03:47:59] and be introspective about these issues
[03:48:03] with who the [ __ ] knows watching and
[03:48:06] talking through it.
[03:48:10] But I ask my question that all the time.
[03:48:12] I don't I didn't even have a family back
[03:48:13] then.
[03:48:17] I think a lot of guys think about this.
[03:48:19] You know, it's
[03:48:21] it's a tough [ __ ] question to ponder.
[03:48:23] >> Yeah. I mean, you're talking about
[03:48:24] Somalia. What we just uncover in [ __ ]
[03:48:27] Minnesota.
[03:48:28] >> Yeah.
[03:48:29] >> How many billions of dollars getting
[03:48:31] smuggled right into [ __ ] Somalia?
[03:48:34] >> What we probably got guys right there
[03:48:35] right [ __ ] now.
[03:48:36] >> Yep.
[03:48:37] >> Is it worth it?
[03:48:38] >> Yeah.
[03:48:41] >> Yeah, I know, dude. I I wrestle with
[03:48:43] that. And you know, a lot of these a lot
[03:48:45] of these AO's
[03:48:47] and we were talking about this on the
[03:48:48] drive over here. We pump money and
[03:48:53] [ __ ] Zodiac boats and equipment and
[03:48:56] guns and ammo and
[03:48:58] >> $87 million a week to the Taliban right
[03:49:01] now. Every [ __ ] week.
[03:49:04] >> What happens? We We do the same [ __ ]
[03:49:06] thing every time. We're going to
[03:49:10] What is the doctrine that we have for
[03:49:11] It's like nation building, right?
[03:49:14] Dude, we suck at it. Okay, we're just
[03:49:17] not [ __ ] good at it. Why don't we
[03:49:19] just not Why don't we not do it?
[03:49:24] So, it's a question I wrestle with all
[03:49:26] the time.
[03:49:28] Um, I don't know. I I feel proud of my
[03:49:30] service.
[03:49:32] Um,
[03:49:34] you know, these are experiences that
[03:49:38] that not many people have.
[03:49:41] I certainly felt a loss of identity when
[03:49:45] when I left. You know, I remember
[03:49:47] walking out out of the the
[03:49:50] NSW compound for the last time and
[03:49:54] you know, there were [ __ ] dudes in
[03:49:56] the kill house and they're doing their
[03:49:58] thing and there's like [ __ ] hilos
[03:50:00] flying around and like there's dudes
[03:50:01] running from one building to another.
[03:50:03] Like there's dudes like cleaning the
[03:50:05] Mark Fives out in um in the boat area.
[03:50:10] and you're like, "This [ __ ] machine
[03:50:12] is just going to go on without me." And
[03:50:15] it's not a good feeling.
[03:50:17] And then you're just a guy on the
[03:50:19] street.
[03:50:22] Um,
[03:50:26] so
[03:50:27] the yeah, the last few years, active
[03:50:29] duty, um, those guys took me in.
[03:50:33] They treated me like just one of their
[03:50:36] own. And my my goal was just to
[03:50:40] represent my service. Well,
[03:50:43] the Air Force
[03:50:45] cuz you know from their view they knew
[03:50:48] Air Force dudes in their world came in
[03:50:50] one of two flavors. PJs controllers,
[03:50:53] PJs, CCTs. Now they got like special
[03:50:56] reconnaissance dudes and whatnot. So
[03:51:00] some wacko like cryptologic linguist
[03:51:03] coming on board and being assigned like
[03:51:06] some very
[03:51:08] high level areas of responsibility
[03:51:11] um was new for them and so I had a lot
[03:51:14] of pressure to [ __ ] get it right.
[03:51:18] Um
[03:51:20] and I I hope I did. You know, a large
[03:51:22] part of why I'm kind of glossing over
[03:51:25] all that piece of it is because, you
[03:51:28] know, I I don't want to get into areas
[03:51:30] that
[03:51:33] that would um,
[03:51:35] you know, dulge TTPs and and all that
[03:51:38] [ __ ] for those guys. So,
[03:51:42] but it was good. Uh my girlfriend always
[03:51:44] gets mad at me because like to this day
[03:51:46] I haven't come up with uh like a clean
[03:51:49] like arc for like what the [ __ ] I did in
[03:51:53] the military, you know?
[03:51:56] So like one of her family will ask a
[03:51:59] question
[03:52:01] and I'll be like, "Oh, well, you know, I
[03:52:03] was in the Air Force, but then I was at
[03:52:05] this like joint place and then like I
[03:52:07] was at NSW." And then they're just like,
[03:52:10] "What the [ __ ] are you talking about,
[03:52:11] dude?" like,
[03:52:14] "Are you a poser?" Like, "What was your
[03:52:16] Buds class?" I was like, "I I didn't I
[03:52:18] wasn't a team guy. I didn't go to
[03:52:20] [ __ ] Buds." Um, but it was it was
[03:52:24] great, man. I I had a really good time.
[03:52:26] They you know, they put me through um
[03:52:28] you know, all of all of the [ __ ] that
[03:52:29] they put their own guys through for
[03:52:31] screening and whatnot. So, it was like
[03:52:34] CQC
[03:52:35] uh you know, driving, you know, [ __ ]
[03:52:39] maritime [ __ ] Um,
[03:52:43] >> jumping.
[03:52:44] >> Uh, no jumping.
[03:52:45] >> No jumping.
[03:52:46] >> No, no.
[03:52:48] Um, not needed for the the stuff that I
[03:52:52] was doing,
[03:52:54] but um, yeah, it was it was good. I
[03:52:57] actually pulled uh I pulled two other
[03:52:59] guys in with me uh Air Force dudes to go
[03:53:02] through the the sequence of of training
[03:53:05] courses
[03:53:07] because those dudes had blown out on um
[03:53:12] some uh some emergency
[03:53:15] operations, let's say, uh in the Indian
[03:53:19] Ocean
[03:53:20] because they spoke the language and um
[03:53:24] and I thought they could just use the
[03:53:25] [ __ ] extra skill sets, you know, it's
[03:53:27] like
[03:53:29] they didn't they didn't appreciate that
[03:53:30] too much because they got put through
[03:53:32] the [ __ ] ringer, but you know, they
[03:53:34] got some good stories out of it. Um,
[03:53:38] but yeah, that was that was fun. A lot
[03:53:40] of it was
[03:53:41] >> You want to talk about the FP ring?
[03:53:44] >> Yeah.
[03:53:48] Yeah. So
[03:53:52] there was um
[03:53:55] there was a a cluster of uh of foreign
[03:53:58] fighters, let's call them, that were
[03:54:01] sort of interfering in the affairs of of
[03:54:03] the uh
[03:54:05] of the AO that we were in at the time.
[03:54:07] And this is an AO that you're very well
[03:54:10] familiar with. In fact, I discovered
[03:54:11] this morning that we were
[03:54:14] >> highly colloccated at one time one
[03:54:17] >> at one time. And um
[03:54:22] the uh basically they were trying to
[03:54:25] smuggle EFPs, so you know, shape charges
[03:54:30] basically, and
[03:54:32] use them to um create IEDs or other
[03:54:37] incendiary devices to put uh diplomatic
[03:54:40] personnel at risk that were that were in
[03:54:41] that particular AO. And so our job was
[03:54:43] to basically figure out, you know, who
[03:54:48] who the [ __ ] is all involved? Um,
[03:54:52] who are they? What do they do? Who do
[03:54:54] they run with? It's like that scene from
[03:54:55] Heat, you know? It's like, who the [ __ ]
[03:54:57] is this guy? I want to know who he runs
[03:54:58] with and who he eats with. I want to
[03:55:00] know who they run with and who they eat
[03:55:01] with. And I want it up tonight and I
[03:55:03] want it I want it going. That was that
[03:55:06] was our job. Um,
[03:55:09] and we we did it we did it quite well.
[03:55:12] Um
[03:55:17] a a lot of it is around
[03:55:19] you know how do you execute fine fix in
[03:55:23] complex urban environments
[03:55:27] >> stuff I was talking about earlier
[03:55:29] >> your question from earlier
[03:55:30] >> he's on that floor and that room
[03:55:33] >> in the bathroom on that wall.
[03:55:36] >> Yeah. And it's like well how the [ __ ] do
[03:55:37] you know that? Well, I'm not going to
[03:55:38] get into that piece of it, but um I know
[03:55:42] and
[03:55:44] I'm going to tell somebody I know and
[03:55:47] that somebody is going to go [ __ ]
[03:55:49] take care of business.
[03:55:51] Um
[03:55:57] yeah, there was some [ __ ] Yeah, there
[03:55:59] there was just some dumb [ __ ] that would
[03:56:01] that would go down. It was a lot of it
[03:56:02] was just like, well, there's not a lot
[03:56:06] of backup here, so like we're just kind
[03:56:09] of hanging our asses out. Um,
[03:56:12] you know, obviously
[03:56:14] some mutual
[03:56:16] you. What are you talking about? You had
[03:56:18] us.
[03:56:19] >> Yeah.
[03:56:21] >> Yeah. I remember um I remember one time
[03:56:25] uh an individual that I actually
[03:56:27] respected highly came down from
[03:56:29] elsewhere in the AO and we were going to
[03:56:32] work with with you guys um on uh on
[03:56:36] something
[03:56:38] and our job me and this individual was
[03:56:42] >> you guys were going to work with the
[03:56:43] clowns in action.
[03:56:47] >> Yeah. Well, in this particular op, I was
[03:56:49] the [ __ ] clown because,
[03:56:52] you know, this individual comes in and
[03:56:54] uh they're like, "Hey, dude. Um, you
[03:56:58] know, you got a great reputation. Really
[03:57:00] psyched to work with you. Like, let's go
[03:57:02] [ __ ] get this thing done. You know,
[03:57:03] represent our organization well with
[03:57:05] these guys over here." And I was like,
[03:57:06] "Cool. Let's go." So, we plan it all
[03:57:08] out. We're like working with working
[03:57:09] with your guys. And our job without you
[03:57:12] know getting too much into it is to be
[03:57:14] at a particular location at a very
[03:57:17] particular time uh looking out for some
[03:57:20] stuff and we roll out
[03:57:26] and you know I'm checking I'm obsessive
[03:57:29] about [ __ ] toot and like being at the
[03:57:33] exactly precisely right places at the
[03:57:36] right times. I want to be there. I want
[03:57:38] to get it right cuz you you know you
[03:57:40] guys are relying on us. And [ __ ] 3
[03:57:44] minutes into this thing, I get [ __ ]
[03:57:46] t-boned by some indage dude like just
[03:57:48] smashes into the car. Right after this
[03:57:51] person says, "Hey man, you got a great
[03:57:53] reputation and like you're known for
[03:57:55] like this flawless execution on these
[03:57:58] three [ __ ] minutes in I get t-boned
[03:58:00] by this [ __ ] guy." I'm like, "God."
[03:58:04] And I'm watching the the the toot burn
[03:58:07] down, right? I'm like, "Uhoh, okay.
[03:58:09] We're we're off base." Um, all right.
[03:58:11] So, I'm like, "Stay in the car." I get
[03:58:14] out. I start negotiating with this
[03:58:16] [ __ ] dude. I like But
[03:58:19] >> no one trains you on how to deal with
[03:58:21] It's not like there's Geico insurance in
[03:58:23] this [ __ ] place, right? So, it's
[03:58:25] like, what am I supposed to do here? So,
[03:58:28] >> I do my best. I like bust out some OP
[03:58:30] fund cash. I'm like, yo, just take this.
[03:58:32] Get the [ __ ] out of here. He like slaps
[03:58:34] the cash out of my hand because like
[03:58:35] he's now he's offended that I'm trying
[03:58:37] to pay him off and [ __ ]
[03:58:41] I'm like so I like talk him down. Uh
[03:58:43] fortunately the the the damage wasn't
[03:58:45] that bad. But by the time all this h I'm
[03:58:49] like convinc convincing this dude to
[03:58:51] like not make this a big deal.
[03:58:56] How do I put this? You guys are in your
[03:59:00] own vehicle and we're supposed to be way
[03:59:03] down the [ __ ] road somewhere else and
[03:59:06] we're not. And you guys drive by us and
[03:59:10] you're just like, "What the [ __ ] are
[03:59:12] these two morons doing on the side of
[03:59:14] the road here?" And you're just like
[03:59:16] staring out the window and I'm like,
[03:59:18] "God,
[03:59:20] I [ __ ] that one up pretty good." Um,
[03:59:24] it's just like dumb [ __ ] like that would
[03:59:26] happen. Another time, uh,
[03:59:30] my buddy were like driving down this
[03:59:32] like really tight section of, um, of the
[03:59:36] city. You know, you know which place I'm
[03:59:37] talking about, this really tight section
[03:59:39] of the city. And he's like, I need you
[03:59:42] to turn down this way. And I look down
[03:59:44] that way.
[03:59:46] And the road leading down this path or
[03:59:49] this section of the city is made
[03:59:52] completely of garbage. It's a [ __ ]
[03:59:54] garbage road. like there's no pavement,
[03:59:56] there's no nothing. I'm like, "Hey,
[03:59:58] dude. I don't think that's a good idea
[04:00:00] for us to drive down that way." He's
[04:00:01] like, "No, no, no. I need you to drive
[04:00:02] down that way because like, you know,
[04:00:04] that's where that's where the [ __ ]
[04:00:06] dude is. Check. Drive down that way."
[04:00:11] Halfway down the [ __ ] road, the
[04:00:16] truck sinks through the [ __ ] garbage.
[04:00:18] We're like stuck. And uh then all these
[04:00:22] it makes a like makes a [ __ ] noise
[04:00:24] cuz I'm trying to like get the get the
[04:00:26] wheels turning and get us out of there.
[04:00:28] So I'm like revving the engine that's
[04:00:29] like making noise. The locals are all
[04:00:31] like, "What the [ __ ] is going on?" They
[04:00:33] like all come out of their houses
[04:00:35] and my buddy is like, "Yep, it's one of
[04:00:39] these [ __ ] dudes that's surrounding
[04:00:41] our car right now."
[04:00:42] >> Holy [ __ ]
[04:00:44] >> Um
[04:00:46] I'm like, "Okay." And uh so there's uh
[04:00:50] there's some there's a team guy in the
[04:00:52] in the car with us. He's a great [ __ ]
[04:00:55] dude, but he's also kind of like just
[04:00:58] let's [ __ ] get it on. And he's like
[04:00:59] what what what do we do, man? Like let's
[04:01:02] let's [ __ ] I'm like, dude, calm down.
[04:01:04] Like let me let me talk us out of this
[04:01:05] one. Um so somehow I get out of the car.
[04:01:10] I convince the locals that like, you
[04:01:12] know, we're trying to head to the beach
[04:01:14] or some [ __ ] and um like they help us
[04:01:17] get the car out of there and we roll
[04:01:19] out. But that one was spicy because I
[04:01:22] was like, if this [ __ ] dude gets a
[04:01:25] whiff that, you know, something's off,
[04:01:29] it's not going to go well.
[04:01:31] Um, one of the neighborhoods we went
[04:01:33] into, the guy did get a whiff and it it
[04:01:37] wasn't anything crazy that happened, but
[04:01:40] he walks in front of
[04:01:41] >> Man, you must speak really [ __ ] good.
[04:01:44] Holy [ __ ]
[04:01:45] >> You know what's [ __ ] up about it,
[04:01:46] dude? When you go to DI,
[04:01:49] >> I mean, the [ __ ] place you're talking
[04:01:51] about is like
[04:01:56] so cultural.
[04:01:57] >> Yeah. And we at least we didn't
[04:02:01] understand that. I mean, if you're
[04:02:02] wearing the whatever on the wrong side,
[04:02:05] they know. Oh, yeah. They [ __ ] know.
[04:02:07] >> Oh, yeah.
[04:02:09] >> You're having to talk to them.
[04:02:10] >> Oh, yeah. Yep.
[04:02:11] >> [ __ ]
[04:02:12] >> On a [ __ ] trash road.
[04:02:14] >> On a trash on a [ __ ] trash.
[04:02:15] >> The poorest part of the [ __ ] city.
[04:02:17] >> Yeah. Um Yeah. So, it got it would get
[04:02:20] dicey. Um
[04:02:22] >> of one of the poorest places in the
[04:02:24] world.
[04:02:25] >> Yeah, it would get dicey. Um,
[04:02:29] yeah. There was one time where
[04:02:33] we were in a neighborhood and the dude
[04:02:35] walks in front of the vehicle and he
[04:02:36] just looks at me. Kind of like what you
[04:02:39] were just saying. He looks at me and I
[04:02:41] look at him and he just he just knows
[04:02:44] that
[04:02:45] I'm not I I could look like whatever,
[04:02:48] but I'm not from there.
[04:02:50] >> Mhm.
[04:02:51] And he like bolts to his vehicle and I
[04:02:56] think I hear him like calling out to
[04:02:57] some of his buddies. I'm like, "Oh,
[04:02:58] [ __ ] Here we go." And then I like
[04:03:02] reverse [ __ ] J turn out of there. I'm
[04:03:05] like, "I get to use the [ __ ] J turn.
[04:03:08] This is pretty [ __ ] sick." And then
[04:03:10] like we book it down and then we see
[04:03:12] them from the rearview mirror. Like
[04:03:13] they're like it I mean it was like
[04:03:15] Keystone cops, dude. They're like
[04:03:17] turning down these alleyways trying to
[04:03:18] like get to us. Um, but we got out of
[04:03:22] there. Uh, just dumb [ __ ] would happen
[04:03:24] like that. Uh, in between, you know, all
[04:03:27] the all the high stress stuff. Um, EFP
[04:03:31] boy. We, uh, we eventually got him.
[04:03:35] Um,
[04:03:36] one thing that was not so fun is, you
[04:03:40] know, sometimes, you know, you're
[04:03:41] expected to get up close
[04:03:44] to these dudes. you know, um
[04:03:48] they might be sbvested up. You don't
[04:03:51] know if they think
[04:03:52] >> that's a suicide vest for the listeners.
[04:03:54] >> Suicide vest. Yeah.
[04:03:56] They think something's off, they're
[04:03:57] going to [ __ ] clack that [ __ ] off.
[04:03:59] And um so I was always hyper hyper
[04:04:03] cognizant of what was going on around
[04:04:05] me, you know, and and like, you know,
[04:04:07] the way that I would conduct myself and
[04:04:08] and all of this, but I was never I was
[04:04:12] never really scared. I was like, "This
[04:04:14] is the greatest [ __ ] opportunity
[04:04:16] anyone could ever ask for in my
[04:04:17] position. I feel like I'm contributing
[04:04:19] directly to like critical needs of of
[04:04:22] the organization and so I'm going to I'm
[04:04:24] going to [ __ ] get after it."
[04:04:26] Actually, one time kind of hilariously
[04:04:29] hung our asses out there and uh
[04:04:32] got like really good shots of some dudes
[04:04:37] and we were working with with you guys
[04:04:40] to do it and
[04:04:42] we pass it off to you guys.
[04:04:46] And then two days later, it comes back
[04:04:48] with like circular reporting that like,
[04:04:51] oh, hey, these dudes like built this
[04:04:54] target package and like here's the
[04:04:56] here's the [ __ ] you know, shots from
[04:05:00] the the wrecky. And I'm like,
[04:05:03] bro, that was that was us. That was not
[04:05:11] I was like, okay, whatever. Um, but you
[04:05:15] know, no one's in it to take
[04:05:18] take credit for anything. Um, it's just
[04:05:20] like, "All right, whatever. Let's just
[04:05:21] [ __ ] get the thing done."
[04:05:24] Uh, and then, you know, one of the very
[04:05:27] last this I mean, I must have done
[04:05:29] hundreds and hundreds of of those ops
[04:05:32] over over the course of my my time
[04:05:34] there. Um, which was was really fun. You
[04:05:36] know, you just get into a a rhythm, you
[04:05:38] know, you you you
[04:05:41] just know how to be in that area, man.
[04:05:43] Like, and hey, okay, you want me to walk
[04:05:44] down a [ __ ] alley in the poorest part
[04:05:47] of town in this [ __ ] place and like
[04:05:49] if I [ __ ] something up, like shit's
[04:05:50] going to go sideways. Cool. I'm I'm
[04:05:52] comfortable with that. You just kind of
[04:05:53] like you go native essentially.
[04:05:56] >> [ __ ] awesome.
[04:05:58] >> Um,
[04:05:58] >> so like I said, it's my favorite [ __ ]
[04:06:00] place.
[04:06:01] >> Yeah.
[04:06:01] >> To work.
[04:06:02] >> Yeah. To Yeah. To work. Um, so my very
[04:06:06] last op,
[04:06:09] uh, we finally after never having had
[04:06:13] one, like AC, across all the the
[04:06:15] deployments and ops and [ __ ]
[04:06:18] got a bird chopped to us. And so they're
[04:06:21] like, "Hey, you're going to have a bird
[04:06:22] on station for like 45 minutes." This is
[04:06:26] like sloppy seconds, you know, like
[04:06:29] they're off doing something for somebody
[04:06:30] else and they're like, "All right, I
[04:06:32] guess they can support you on their way
[04:06:34] home." I'm like, "Cool. Thanks, man."
[04:06:36] Um, I'm like, "All right, here's what I
[04:06:39] need. Uh,
[04:06:41] I I need to dial them up and be able to
[04:06:43] to calm with them real time." Um, and
[04:06:45] they were like, "Native. You're not
[04:06:46] authorized to talk to them." I was like,
[04:06:48] "I'm not authorized to talk to a [ __ ]
[04:06:50] aircraft overhead that's supporting me."
[04:06:53] Um, and my guys
[04:06:56] negative. You got to run the comms
[04:06:57] through
[04:06:59] this stupid comms loop that ran from
[04:07:02] where we were at all the way states side
[04:07:04] and then all the way back to where we
[04:07:06] were at. This is like [ __ ] 20,000
[04:07:07] milei loop of a comm. I was like, that's
[04:07:10] just not going to work, dude. Like, you
[04:07:12] know, when you're
[04:07:13] >> Why in the [ __ ]
[04:07:14] >> When you're when you're out there, like,
[04:07:16] you know, micros secondsonds matter. I
[04:07:19] was like, I'm not dealing with this. So,
[04:07:21] I'd look at our comms guy. I'm like,
[04:07:22] "Hey man, we got a green radio." "Yeah,
[04:07:25] dude." I'm like, "Fire up this
[04:07:26] frequency, please, if you would. And uh
[04:07:28] and hand me that radio." And um and so I
[04:07:32] fire it up. I get comms with the bird.
[04:07:35] I'm like, "Hey, uh I'm checking in with
[04:07:37] you guys. You guys will be working for
[04:07:38] us tonight." Now,
[04:07:42] that was interesting for me because I
[04:07:45] used to be the dude on the bird, like
[04:07:49] helping support all these [ __ ] dudes
[04:07:51] on the ground. I knew how to talk. I
[04:07:53] knew what they would do. I knew all the
[04:07:55] procedures they had. I knew how they
[04:07:57] would be working the gear. I knew how
[04:07:59] they would look at the imagery. I I I
[04:08:02] just knew it, right? I It was like I was
[04:08:03] one with them. And at the same time over
[04:08:06] the course of, you know, hundreds of
[04:08:08] reps, I was one with these guys that I
[04:08:09] was on the ground with, too. And so it
[04:08:12] kind of was really cool because
[04:08:16] my career came full circle on that op,
[04:08:18] right? I was able to fire up the radio,
[04:08:20] talk to the bird like I was one of them,
[04:08:22] talk to these guys like I'm one of them,
[04:08:24] fuse all of it together, and like
[04:08:27] navigate fluidly through this urban
[04:08:29] environment in order to to get the work
[04:08:31] done. And
[04:08:34] that was really cool. Like I was just
[04:08:36] able to bring it all home. Um,
[04:08:40] >> that is [ __ ] badass, man.
[04:08:44] >> Yeah, you were definitely meant to be
[04:08:46] there.
[04:08:50] >> Running a business sounds great until
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[04:10:26] And then uh and then I got home and um
[04:10:29] and then you know what happens is
[04:10:34] you know we were talking about this
[04:10:35] earlier when you spend too much time
[04:10:37] coloring outside the lines in the
[04:10:39] military.
[04:10:41] whatever bureaucracy or like personnel
[04:10:46] machine that operates your service will
[04:10:50] come get a hold of you and like where
[04:10:53] the [ __ ] you've been for the past you
[04:10:55] know x many years like you need to come
[04:10:58] back to the fold and go back to big blue
[04:11:00] air force and go take an instructor
[04:11:03] billet somewhere or or what have you. I
[04:11:06] was like I'm not going to do that. Um,
[04:11:09] after having done the [ __ ] that I've
[04:11:11] been doing for the past, you know,
[04:11:12] almost decade by that point, I wasn't
[04:11:15] going to go back to
[04:11:18] all the stuff that Big Blue Air Force
[04:11:19] normally does, like good like awesome
[04:11:22] people doing all of those jobs. But I
[04:11:25] had just seen too much, you know? I I
[04:11:28] had seen too much. And I went to the
[04:11:30] leadership at um at NSW. I was like, is
[04:11:34] there any [ __ ] way for me to like be
[04:11:36] here full-time? I was like, I'll get
[04:11:39] out. I'll [ __ ] do an inner service
[04:11:40] transfer to the Navy. They're like,
[04:11:44] I mean, we got pull, but we don't have
[04:11:48] that kind of pull. You know, if you do
[04:11:49] an inner service transfer, you might
[04:11:51] have to go be on a boat for a few years.
[04:11:53] Um, and then and then we'll pull you.
[04:11:56] I was like, okay, that's not going to
[04:11:59] work. Um, and then I had one of the
[04:12:02] leadership go to um, headquarters, Air
[04:12:05] Force and like go brief me by name and
[04:12:10] be like, "The ideal situation for you
[04:12:14] guys and us is for Nick to have a bullet
[04:12:18] at this at this organization." Air Force
[04:12:21] was like, "Nope, not our thing."
[04:12:24] >> Damn. No [ __ ]
[04:12:26] >> So I was like, "Okay, I got no options
[04:12:28] here." So, I I left I left the service
[04:12:31] because there was nowhere for me to go.
[04:12:32] I'd gotten to the end of my career track
[04:12:34] like as a cryptologic linguist. There
[04:12:37] was nothing else for me to do um in
[04:12:42] while active duty. So,
[04:12:46] um I left again. It was it was a it was
[04:12:50] just a feeling of dude th this train
[04:12:54] this machine is just going to keep
[04:12:55] functioning without me. And it's a
[04:12:57] terrible feeling. One day you're
[04:13:01] >> you're the guy.
[04:13:02] >> One day you're the [ __ ] guy. You're
[04:13:03] the [ __ ] guy that made Admiral
[04:13:07] McCraven reroute [ __ ] LHC's and
[04:13:11] helicopter assault forces to prosecute
[04:13:16] a [ __ ] high value target that that
[04:13:19] you found. You're the [ __ ] guy that
[04:13:21] like you know people are relying on.
[04:13:23] you're the guy that can like h that
[04:13:26] bring capabilities to bear that um that
[04:13:30] other people in the organization cannot.
[04:13:33] And then to go from that to you're just
[04:13:36] another [ __ ] dude on the street with
[04:13:38] taxes and bills to pay and uh and rent.
[04:13:44] Get your [ __ ] resume together. Start
[04:13:46] applying for jobs on [ __ ] indeed.com.
[04:13:50] Dude, that broke me. And at that moment
[04:13:55] where your identity
[04:13:58] was completely
[04:14:00] nuked
[04:14:01] all in a matter of a a few seconds, you
[04:14:04] know, you're done. You walk out that
[04:14:05] compound, you're done.
[04:14:08] I knew what it was like to be my dad and
[04:14:11] to go from the [ __ ] dude who had
[04:14:16] escaped the boarding school he went
[04:14:18] through and become this
[04:14:21] highly, you know, respected individual
[04:14:25] that got to do amazing things around the
[04:14:27] world, you know, in his own way, you
[04:14:28] know, in in the in the merchant marine.
[04:14:32] uh to go from that to working a [ __ ]
[04:14:34] styrofoam cup job at a factory in
[04:14:36] Jersey.
[04:14:38] That's the feeling I felt wash over me.
[04:14:40] And it was tough. Uh the first
[04:14:45] the the first year or two out of the
[04:14:48] military was tough. um I landed a a
[04:14:50] contracting position with
[04:14:54] the SOCOM element um to be an instructor
[04:14:58] for some of their uh their initial
[04:15:01] training cycles. So this was a a SOCOM
[04:15:03] element that specialized in doing the
[04:15:05] things that I had been doing for for the
[04:15:07] past few years.
[04:15:09] Um
[04:15:11] and so I went on staff as one of their
[04:15:13] instructor cadre and um
[04:15:18] that particular organization
[04:15:20] uh tends to be quite isolated. Um they
[04:15:23] tend to work in their own little vacuum,
[04:15:25] you know, they're kind of like you guys
[04:15:26] in that way. You guys, your former guys.
[04:15:30] Um,
[04:15:32] and so me coming from one of the other
[04:15:36] um, you know,
[04:15:39] task force components,
[04:15:42] they're like, "All right, cool. But we
[04:15:44] need you to just like check some boxes
[04:15:46] and teach these dudes how to do stuff
[04:15:47] and and whatnot." And I did, but during
[04:15:51] the course of it, you know, I I gave
[04:15:53] some feedback to him. I was like, "Hey,
[04:15:55] man. Some of the [ __ ] that these guys
[04:15:56] are doing is going to get them killed
[04:15:57] out in the field." Like
[04:16:00] I don't want to get into any of the
[04:16:02] TTPs, but I was like, you know, here
[04:16:03] here's where you guys need to rethink
[04:16:05] some of some of these TTPs that these
[04:16:08] guys are doing. Um because having just
[04:16:10] done like hundreds of these [ __ ]
[04:16:12] things in like low permissive, semi-p
[04:16:15] permissive environments. I was like, you
[04:16:17] try that [ __ ] out there and you're going
[04:16:19] to you're going to get got.
[04:16:23] In retrospect, I could have gone about
[04:16:25] it a different way. I could have been
[04:16:27] more diplomatic about it. I could have I
[04:16:29] could have tried to, you know, change it
[04:16:31] from the inside, but it was a very
[04:16:32] insular organization. And it's like
[04:16:34] unless you came out of that place, like
[04:16:36] they didn't they weren't really
[04:16:37] interested in in what you had to say.
[04:16:40] So, um,
[04:16:42] you know, I I wrapped up with them.
[04:16:44] >> It's interesting, right? It's
[04:16:46] interesting how they don't want to hear
[04:16:48] it.
[04:16:50] >> Uh, you can't blame them, right? like
[04:16:54] they have like like any of the task
[04:16:57] force components, they have a a long
[04:16:59] history of successes and they have their
[04:17:02] own culture. Um,
[04:17:07] yeah, it's human it's human nature, I
[04:17:10] think. And me being, you know, young at
[04:17:13] the time and not politically savvy, you
[04:17:15] know, I just, you know, to me it's like,
[04:17:17] I'm just going to be a [ __ ] straight
[04:17:18] shooter, dude. Like,
[04:17:19] >> here you go. Here's what I think. It's
[04:17:21] like, well, that's not really the best
[04:17:22] way to to go about things.
[04:17:25] >> Are you at like my sister company?
[04:17:29] >> Is that where you're at?
[04:17:31] >> You um
[04:17:32] >> I'm trying trying to I'm trying to play
[04:17:35] within the lines here.
[04:17:36] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[04:17:37] >> Okay.
[04:17:38] >> Kind of. Yeah.
[04:17:38] >> Okay. So, very politically correct.
[04:17:42] >> You're coming from a unit of [ __ ]
[04:17:44] savages.
[04:17:45] >> Doesn't end Yeah. Okay. It's a hard
[04:17:48] transition. I get it. Yep.
[04:17:53] Yep. Um
[04:17:56] yeah, they call they call they have
[04:17:58] different terminology for everything.
[04:17:59] They call things differently. They um
[04:18:02] Yeah.
[04:18:06] So I I wrapped up with
[04:18:08] >> very gentle. You have to be gentle in
[04:18:11] these organizations. You can't be
[04:18:13] direct. You have to beat around the
[04:18:15] [ __ ] bush. You have to play the
[04:18:17] [ __ ] game. Yeah. And it it it it it
[04:18:20] be it's a problem for for
[04:18:23] people like you and I who come out of
[04:18:25] organizations where there you just don't
[04:18:28] there's no there's not much [ __ ] to
[04:18:30] sift through. It's just
[04:18:32] >> you [ __ ] up. Yeah.
[04:18:33] >> You're going to get [ __ ] people
[04:18:34] killed. Don't [ __ ] do it again.
[04:18:36] >> Exactly. And if you try bringing that
[04:18:37] [ __ ] man, you're going to see your
[04:18:39] ass out the door real [ __ ] quick.
[04:18:43] >> Um
[04:18:46] then I was completely out on my ass. So
[04:18:48] like
[04:18:49] >> Oh, so did you get did they kick you
[04:18:50] out?
[04:18:51] >> No, they didn't kick me out, but the,
[04:18:52] you know, there was some contract
[04:18:53] shenanigans. You know how it goes. Like
[04:18:55] someone comes in, outbids the incumbent.
[04:18:57] >> Oh, you didn't get invited. Oh. Oh,
[04:18:58] okay.
[04:18:59] >> Out bids the incumbent. They're, you
[04:19:00] know, the new contracting company is
[04:19:03] like, you know, we're going to cut your
[04:19:04] salary by such and such. It's like,
[04:19:06] well, I'm not I'm not really invested in
[04:19:08] this [ __ ] place, so like I'm out.
[04:19:12] Um,
[04:19:15] but it was an opportunity for me to, you
[04:19:17] know, convey some of the lessons learned
[04:19:19] from from the field. Like I I know we're
[04:19:21] being very general here with with the
[04:19:23] type of [ __ ] that we're talking about,
[04:19:24] but at the time,
[04:19:27] uh, there weren't very many
[04:19:28] organizations doing the kind of [ __ ]
[04:19:30] that we were doing like at at the
[04:19:32] organization I was at. And so anything
[04:19:33] that I could do to convey to these guys,
[04:19:37] hey, the here's the realities of working
[04:19:39] in these environments and the things
[04:19:41] that you need to be cognizant of
[04:19:44] um and so on. I I tried to do, you know,
[04:19:46] there was one point where one of their
[04:19:48] they're going through their initial
[04:19:50] training cycles and it was like u one of
[04:19:52] their ending exercises and the scenario
[04:19:56] was uh was a hostage rescue basically.
[04:19:58] And so these guys were out there and
[04:20:01] their job was to um essentially locate
[04:20:05] the hostages, right? And once they do
[04:20:10] that triggers, you know, a series of of
[04:20:12] things
[04:20:15] ending culmination exercise. Um and I
[04:20:18] could tell that like it hadn't really
[04:20:20] clicked for some of them, right? like
[04:20:21] the type of serious [ __ ] that they were
[04:20:23] going to get into cuz these are people
[04:20:24] that came from
[04:20:27] anywhere everywhere uh you know
[04:20:29] traditional like conventional military
[04:20:32] uh and so on. And
[04:20:36] so I I go visit one of the the teams out
[04:20:39] in the field with with some of the other
[04:20:41] active duty uh cadre and um the active
[04:20:44] duty cadre is like, "Hey, where's
[04:20:45] everyone at?" And the the students are
[04:20:48] like, "Uh, well, we got some dudes going
[04:20:51] to get Subway right now and then we got
[04:20:53] we got one team just like trolling
[04:20:55] around like over here."
[04:20:58] And I lost my [ __ ] I was like,
[04:21:03] "Hey man,
[04:21:05] let me tell you guys something.
[04:21:08] This scenario that you guys are doing
[04:21:10] here for this culmination exercise
[04:21:15] is one of the most
[04:21:18] critical scenarios you will ever
[04:21:21] encounter
[04:21:22] in the real [ __ ] hostage rescue,
[04:21:25] right?
[04:21:26] Especially the pre-assault portion of a
[04:21:28] hostage rescue.
[04:21:31] It could very well be the case that two
[04:21:33] weeks from now after you guys graduate
[04:21:34] this training program, you guys could be
[04:21:36] in front of the [ __ ] CG for real
[04:21:40] downrange somewhere briefing him on what
[04:21:42] the [ __ ] your plan is to find these
[04:21:45] people, right? If you get put on on an
[04:21:48] actual op.
[04:21:50] And I'll tell you right [ __ ] now that
[04:21:54] telling the CG that you got some you got
[04:21:56] some [ __ ] dudes getting food and then
[04:21:58] you got another set of dudes just
[04:22:00] trolling around some random location in
[04:22:02] town with no
[04:22:05] hypothesis behind why they're over there
[04:22:08] or any leads whatsoever is not going to
[04:22:10] [ __ ] fly. So tighten your [ __ ] up.
[04:22:12] This is your culmination exercise.
[04:22:15] You're going to be doing this for real
[04:22:16] in two weeks. And then I said it and I
[04:22:20] was like, "Fuck, dude." Like, I
[04:22:22] shouldn't have said that. I'm just a
[04:22:23] contractor. I I'm not part of this
[04:22:27] organization. I didn't come from this
[04:22:28] organization. So, I looked at the the
[04:22:30] active duty cadre and I was like, "Hey,
[04:22:33] you know, sorry if I overstepped any
[04:22:36] lines. Like, I I'm just trying to convey
[04:22:39] to them the reality of, you know, what
[04:22:41] they're going to be facing."
[04:22:43] And they were like, "Dude, no [ __ ]
[04:22:45] problem." Like, they need to hear that
[04:22:46] [ __ ] um like it's it's all good. And so
[04:22:50] I kind of that was uh that was kind of
[04:22:53] the last thing I did. I kind of saw that
[04:22:54] culmination exercise through and then um
[04:22:58] and then I left. Uh and then now that
[04:23:01] was kind of my offramp from from
[04:23:04] anything to do with any of this [ __ ]
[04:23:06] And and then now at this point I was
[04:23:07] just a straight [ __ ] civilian.
[04:23:10] And
[04:23:14] you know, the the savings that you have
[04:23:16] as a [ __ ] E6, um, you know, they
[04:23:19] dwindle quick, right? And I'm out here.
[04:23:22] I'm trying to
[04:23:24] land somewhere in the civilian world.
[04:23:27] Months go by. You know, I'm I'm not
[04:23:29] really able to make anything stick. Um,
[04:23:34] my resumes are just [ __ ] disasters,
[04:23:37] dude. Like, I look at some of my old
[04:23:38] resume. I still have like weapons qualls
[04:23:40] on my [ __ ] resumes that I that sent
[04:23:43] around. I'm like, are you [ __ ]
[04:23:46] stupid?
[04:23:48] What the hell were you thinking?
[04:23:51] Um, savings are dwindling. One day I
[04:23:54] wake up, there's,
[04:23:56] you know, three-digit dollar amount in
[04:23:59] the bank. Um, I I'm still with my with
[04:24:02] my ex at this point, you know. My my son
[04:24:04] is two
[04:24:06] >> three digits.
[04:24:07] >> Yeah. Yeah. three digits. Um my son is
[04:24:11] two and a half or so. My my stepdaughter
[04:24:13] is um she was 11 at 12.
[04:24:19] Um I'm like I got to make some [ __ ]
[04:24:22] happen. And uh right around then I uh
[04:24:25] here's the problem, right? When when
[04:24:27] you're when you're working the work that
[04:24:29] I did for the organization,
[04:24:32] you only kind of get to learn [ __ ] at a
[04:24:35] very superficial level. like, you know,
[04:24:37] whether it's the EW side or whether it's
[04:24:39] like the cyber [ __ ] or whether it's
[04:24:41] something else, right? CQC, whatever.
[04:24:43] You never get to go into anything at the
[04:24:47] level of specialization
[04:24:49] of like a dude that just focuses on
[04:24:51] that. You don't get to do CQC like a
[04:24:53] [ __ ] team guy. You don't get to do EW
[04:24:56] like a full-time TCW guy. You don't get
[04:24:59] to do cyber as a full-time cyber dude.
[04:25:02] So, you dabble in this [ __ ] and you kind
[04:25:04] of synthesize it all and you you go do
[04:25:07] the the mission, but you're handicapped
[04:25:09] because
[04:25:12] you transition out to the civilian world
[04:25:13] and it's like, "All right, well, let me
[04:25:14] try and get a job in cyber security."
[04:25:17] >> [ __ ] I didn't think about that.
[04:25:19] >> Well, I kind of know how this [ __ ]
[04:25:21] works. I'd know, you know, if you'd go
[04:25:24] tell me
[04:25:25] >> you're a jack of all trades of all
[04:25:26] trades. I can be told where to go plug
[04:25:28] the [ __ ] USB drive in, but I don't
[04:25:30] know what the [ __ ] that USB drive is
[04:25:32] doing when I do that. I don't know how
[04:25:34] all that [ __ ] works, like
[04:25:37] what machines are clicking and worrying
[04:25:39] like when when things begin operating.
[04:25:43] And so I had to do a couple of things
[04:25:46] very quickly. Number one,
[04:25:51] I had to just deep dive into something.
[04:25:53] And I was like, "Okay, I'm going to I'm
[04:25:55] going to deep dive into this cyber [ __ ]
[04:25:57] because I can I can finally like fully
[04:25:59] transition into the civilian world. If I
[04:26:01] stayed in like EW and all that [ __ ] I
[04:26:02] would still be in the orbits of, you
[04:26:05] know, the old organizations. I just
[04:26:07] wanted to make a clean break. I'm like,
[04:26:09] if I'm out, I'm out." Um,
[04:26:12] so I I [ __ ] dove deep into into the
[04:26:15] cyber [ __ ] and data analytics and um I
[04:26:18] basically put myself through like a
[04:26:20] civilian hell week basically. And for a
[04:26:23] week straight, I would watch like like
[04:26:27] Harvard lectures on data analytics and
[04:26:31] cyber security and all this other [ __ ]
[04:26:33] on like 3x speed and just like osmosis
[04:26:38] all the [ __ ] things that these people
[04:26:40] were saying, all these professors, you
[04:26:42] know, doing giving their lectures. And
[04:26:44] um I I did that for a week straight. And
[04:26:48] >> so you're you're legitimately just
[04:26:49] trying to [ __ ] download as much
[04:26:51] information as fast as possible, cram it
[04:26:53] into [ __ ] one week so that
[04:26:56] >> so I can start interviewing for Wow.
[04:26:57] >> for for jobs.
[04:26:59] >> Are you understanding all the lectures?
[04:27:01] >> No, but but I'm I'm picking I'm picking
[04:27:04] things up here and there, you know? I
[04:27:06] I'm not understanding
[04:27:08] the major like
[04:27:11] I'm not deep diving into any of the
[04:27:13] concepts, right? But I'm learning the
[04:27:14] language and I'm learning the concepts
[04:27:17] and and I'm learning like the breath of
[04:27:19] things.
[04:27:20] Um,
[04:27:23] right around that time, uh, there was a
[04:27:26] Time article or like a [ __ ] business
[04:27:29] insider article that came out about this
[04:27:31] company called Endgame. And it was run
[04:27:34] by a guy named Nate Fick, um, who had
[04:27:37] been a, uh, Marine officer, um, Marine
[04:27:41] Force recon officer.
[04:27:43] Uh, and he like he wrote a book and they
[04:27:45] made like a [ __ ] HBO show about his
[04:27:47] platoon, but he had gotten out a few
[04:27:49] years previously and he had become the
[04:27:51] CEO of this company. I was like, "That
[04:27:54] sounds like a cool [ __ ] company to
[04:27:56] work for." And uh, you know, the CEO
[04:27:59] seems pretty legit. And what they did
[04:28:01] was they created essentially
[04:28:06] exotic cyber warfare capabilities for
[04:28:08] the US government and for commercial
[04:28:11] customers. They hadn't quite figured out
[04:28:12] the commercial customer angle yet, but
[04:28:15] US government knew exactly what they
[04:28:16] wanted from them. And it was a bunch of
[04:28:18] former intel community guys, DoD guys
[04:28:21] that focused fully on cyber. I was like,
[04:28:24] "Here's a place that I can go. I can
[04:28:25] [ __ ] learn from these dudes. I can
[04:28:26] figure out how this [ __ ] works and then
[04:28:28] I can use that as a launching pad to to
[04:28:31] move forward." Problem was, they didn't
[04:28:34] have any [ __ ] job openings except for
[04:28:35] a data science position. And I was like,
[04:28:38] I don't know [ __ ] what the [ __ ] is data
[04:28:39] science. And so I start looking into it
[04:28:42] and I come to realize, okay, well, a lot
[04:28:45] of it is around the type of [ __ ] that I
[04:28:48] had to do before rolling out on an OP,
[04:28:51] right? You're looking at law, you're
[04:28:54] looking at data, you're crunching
[04:28:56] numbers, you're taking your analyses and
[04:28:59] then you are translating them into
[04:29:01] something that has to happen in the real
[04:29:03] world, right? In my in the old job's
[04:29:06] case, it was translate that data into
[04:29:09] how the [ __ ] you're going to plan your,
[04:29:11] you know, surveillance operation or
[04:29:13] whatever.
[04:29:15] So, I put together this like PowerPoint
[04:29:18] deck. I applied I applied to the role um
[04:29:20] and I put together this PowerPoint deck
[04:29:22] that they wanted for this presentation.
[04:29:24] Um, and I didn't know [ __ ] dude. Uh the
[04:29:28] title of the PowerPoint deck was because
[04:29:30] I was trying to translate [ __ ] from my
[04:29:32] military career. It was like fugitive
[04:29:34] recovery utilizing data analytics and it
[04:29:37] was all about how you can use
[04:29:41] data that you would get from various
[04:29:42] sensors and basically sift through it
[04:29:45] using machine learning algorithms. I was
[04:29:47] just saying [ __ ] that I had seen in
[04:29:49] these goddamn lectures, right? how you
[04:29:51] can use machine learning in order to
[04:29:53] drill down on where this [ __ ]
[04:29:55] fugitive was at any given moment and uh
[04:29:57] you know execute a recovery you know
[04:30:00] trying to use language that civilians
[04:30:01] would understand. So, I go I uh I go my
[04:30:06] first interview is with this like data
[04:30:08] scientist guy and he's a [ __ ] smart
[04:30:12] dude like PhD from like Ivy League
[04:30:14] school like all this [ __ ] AI machine
[04:30:16] learning expert and he's like he he
[04:30:21] draws a thing on the board. He's like
[04:30:24] what is a type of graph that you can't
[04:30:28] get caught in a loop in? And I was like,
[04:30:31] "Bro, what the [ __ ] are you talking
[04:30:33] about? I have no idea." But I tried
[04:30:36] making some [ __ ] up and I know the
[04:30:39] answer now. It's a [ __ ] directed
[04:30:41] ascyclic graph. But at the time, I was
[04:30:44] like, I have no idea what this dude's
[04:30:45] talking about. I'm going to fail this
[04:30:47] process and I'm not going to make it.
[04:30:49] Um, I guess they saw something in me. I
[04:30:52] don't know what it was. Like just like
[04:30:54] the earnestness with which I answered.
[04:30:57] Uh, they could probably tell I did some
[04:30:59] preparatory work or whatever, but they
[04:31:02] kept moving me on in the process. And
[04:31:04] then I get to the panel presentation and
[04:31:06] you know, I start walking through it.
[04:31:09] They have no idea what the [ __ ] I'm
[04:31:10] talking about. Like, fugitive recovery.
[04:31:11] The [ __ ] is this dude? This is a cyber
[04:31:13] company. There was one guy that walks in
[04:31:16] and he's my friend to this day. Um, I'm
[04:31:19] trying to get him to join the company
[04:31:20] actually. He came from your former
[04:31:23] organization and um he's like sitting in
[04:31:27] the back and he's like looking at his
[04:31:29] [ __ ] He's like, "Yeah, I know what this
[04:31:31] dude's talking about." He's like,
[04:31:32] "Where'd you say you came from?" I tell
[04:31:34] him the [ __ ] squadron. He's like,
[04:31:36] "Stand by." He like walks outside. He
[04:31:38] makes a phone call to one of the dudes
[04:31:39] at the squadron and he's like, "You know
[04:31:43] this guy Nick?" You know, that's the
[04:31:44] first thing any of us do, right? [ __ ]
[04:31:47] call people and be like, "Is this guy
[04:31:48] full of [ __ ] or what?" And the the guy
[04:31:52] on the other end of the line is like,
[04:31:54] "Yo, whatever happened to that dude?"
[04:31:55] Like, "Is he still acting, dude? Get him
[04:31:58] the [ __ ] back here if he is." And this
[04:32:01] guy,
[04:32:02] >> this new guy sucks.
[04:32:04] >> He's like, "That guy was [ __ ]
[04:32:06] awesome, man." And uh my friend John is
[04:32:08] like, "Fuck you. I'm taking him." So he
[04:32:12] so he uh he he hired me after that. Um,
[04:32:15] and that led to
[04:32:19] so I worked at Endgame for a while.
[04:32:21] >> [ __ ] man.
[04:32:22] >> I learned a lot about how the civilian
[04:32:25] world thinks about cyber warfare
[04:32:27] capabilities and cyber defense and cuz,
[04:32:30] you know, we're we're building these
[04:32:32] exotic capabilities for the US
[04:32:33] government, but at the same time, we're
[04:32:35] trying to figure out how to translate
[04:32:36] that expertise into some kind of
[04:32:38] defensive capability for the private
[04:32:40] sector, right? And so when I joined the
[04:32:42] company, we were going through this
[04:32:44] phase where like, all right, we can do
[04:32:46] all this cool offensive [ __ ] Now, how
[04:32:48] do we use that to protect companies and
[04:32:52] and private sector entities? So, I just
[04:32:54] got I was able to be immersed in all of
[04:32:58] it. And it was a really good uh it was a
[04:33:02] really good springboard for me. Um, so I
[04:33:04] I would do [ __ ] like, you know, I would
[04:33:06] put out posts on social media about my
[04:33:09] my thoughts on cyber security and [ __ ]
[04:33:12] like that. Just cringe-worthy stuff
[04:33:14] looking back on it at this point. And
[04:33:17] one of the things I wanted to do was
[04:33:19] eventually start my own company. I had
[04:33:21] no [ __ ] idea how to do any of that
[04:33:23] [ __ ] right? I had zero concept. Um, but
[04:33:27] I would go to these like meetups,
[04:33:30] um, like these veteran meetups, you
[04:33:32] know, these small bit here, here's how
[04:33:34] to start your small business or
[04:33:35] whatever. I was like, "All right, I'll
[04:33:37] go to this one." And it was up in New
[04:33:39] York. Took the family, drove up to New
[04:33:41] York. Um, and it was at uh the Goldman
[04:33:44] Sachs building. And I was like, "This is
[04:33:46] pretty [ __ ] cool." You know, One
[04:33:47] World Trade is across the street.
[04:33:50] Um, and I go to the the event and I'm
[04:33:56] supposed to be paired up with this like
[04:33:58] mentor who's supposed to like teach me
[04:34:01] about the world of, you know, Silicon
[04:34:04] Valley and tech and all this [ __ ]
[04:34:07] Well, come to find out, the [ __ ] dude
[04:34:09] I had been paired up with like got [ __ ]
[04:34:12] house the night before and like woke up
[04:34:14] hung over and didn't show up. And so I
[04:34:17] was I'm sitting at this table. I'm like
[04:34:19] waiting for this dude to show up. No one
[04:34:21] shows up. And this guy from Palunteer
[04:34:24] walks by and he's like, "Hey man, did
[04:34:27] your guy not show up or like what's
[04:34:29] going on?" And I'm like, "Yeah, I don't
[04:34:30] I don't know what happened." Like he
[04:34:31] didn't he didn't show up. He's like, "I
[04:34:34] think I know what happened." He's a he's
[04:34:35] a fellow Palunteer guy. I'm And he's
[04:34:38] like, "All right, just come come talk to
[04:34:39] me." And he's like, "Hey, what what do
[04:34:41] you got going on? What's your
[04:34:42] background?" Um and I'm telling him, I
[04:34:45] was like, "Okay, and you're at Endgame?"
[04:34:48] Yep. He's like, "Okay, interesting.
[04:34:51] Well, uh, you know, [ __ ] starting your
[04:34:53] own business. Like, why don't you just
[04:34:55] come over to us at at Palanteer?" I'm
[04:34:57] like, "Uh, like I don't know much about
[04:34:58] you guys. I don't I don't really know
[04:35:00] what you do." So, I started looking into
[04:35:02] them. I was like, "That place looks
[04:35:04] [ __ ] legit, dude. Uh, I I would love
[04:35:06] to work there." And, um, you know, at
[04:35:08] the time it was very secretive. Uh, it
[04:35:10] was like any article about Palunteer was
[04:35:12] like CIA backed company, secretive CIA
[04:35:17] backed data analytics company does blah
[04:35:20] [ __ ] blah.
[04:35:22] I was like CIA backed. I'm in. Let's go.
[04:35:26] Let's [ __ ]
[04:35:28] >> [ __ ] get out there.
[04:35:29] >> [ __ ]
[04:35:31] Um, so it turns out that they needed a
[04:35:34] dude with that that was just like
[04:35:38] that could just speak, you know, like
[04:35:40] just be put in front of customers and
[04:35:42] like could speak to some of the tech
[04:35:44] [ __ ] but, you know, also be good at
[04:35:47] speaking to customers that believed in
[04:35:49] the mission. And um, and so this guy uh,
[04:35:54] put me through the process. But here's
[04:35:57] the problem. I had already applied to
[04:35:59] Palanteer a couple of times before, like
[04:36:01] before I knew a lot about them. And
[04:36:03] that's part of the reason why I was
[04:36:04] hesitant. I was like, I don't know. I've
[04:36:05] already like applied to you guys a
[04:36:06] couple times before.
[04:36:09] And um the hiring process there at the
[04:36:12] time, this was 2016,
[04:36:15] was [ __ ] insane. Like there were some
[04:36:19] people that went through 11, 12 rounds
[04:36:21] of interviews with
[04:36:22] >> Holy [ __ ]
[04:36:23] >> Engineers. Like the bar for hiring was
[04:36:28] so [ __ ] high. And I know you're going
[04:36:29] to have Sham here in a bit. Um, and he
[04:36:33] can tell you more about that. One thing
[04:36:34] I really respect about Sham and a lot of
[04:36:37] the early Palunteer people was that
[04:36:39] somehow they not only built this culture
[04:36:42] of high [ __ ] performance at all
[04:36:44] times, but they sustained it over the
[04:36:45] course of x many years, you know, and
[04:36:48] that's work like that is institution
[04:36:51] building.
[04:36:53] Um, and that's the culture that they had
[04:36:55] built at the time. That culture didn't
[04:36:58] necessarily have a place for Nick
[04:37:01] Croman, former [ __ ] task force dude
[04:37:03] that is a jack of all trades, doesn't
[04:37:05] really know a lot about any single one,
[04:37:08] didn't come from an Ivy League school,
[04:37:10] and is trying to get a job at this
[04:37:11] [ __ ] place, right? Like, on paper,
[04:37:15] there's no way I'm getting past a first
[04:37:19] round recruiter. So what this guy did
[04:37:22] was he's like, "All right, there's a
[04:37:25] there's a kind of internal process we
[04:37:28] got and if we think someone can truly
[04:37:31] hack it here, but they don't really come
[04:37:32] from this traditional background that we
[04:37:34] look for, we're going to put them
[04:37:37] straight in front of Alex Karp, Palter
[04:37:39] CEO. You
[04:37:40] >> Oh [ __ ]
[04:37:41] >> You're going to have five minutes with
[04:37:42] Karp and if he likes you in those five
[04:37:45] minutes, then you'll probably get the
[04:37:47] job. And if he thinks you're a piece of
[04:37:49] [ __ ] then he'll walk you out of the
[04:37:51] building or I'll have his assistant walk
[04:37:52] you out of the building.
[04:37:55] I got nothing to lose, right? I'm like,
[04:37:56] well, I've already applied to this place
[04:37:57] a couple of [ __ ] times. Like, yeah,
[04:37:59] I'll go I'll go talk to Karp. So, I go
[04:38:00] to their Washington DC office and um
[04:38:04] they take me up there. They take me to
[04:38:05] Karp's office.
[04:38:07] dude is wearing a like blue Russian
[04:38:10] tracksuit, bare feet, walking around the
[04:38:13] office, just like
[04:38:16] he's he's the [ __ ] man around there,
[04:38:18] right? And he comes in, he like kicks
[04:38:19] his feet up.
[04:38:22] He's like, "Why the [ __ ] do you want to
[04:38:23] work here?"
[04:38:25] And I was like,
[04:38:27] I look him dead in the eye. I I didn't
[04:38:29] know he was gonna ask me this, so I
[04:38:30] didn't really have a a canned answer.
[04:38:33] I looked him dead in the eye and I was
[04:38:34] like, "Same reason I want to work at
[04:38:37] SpaceX one day because I want to have an
[04:38:41] impact
[04:38:42] on our society and our country in the
[04:38:47] same way that I did when I was active
[04:38:50] duty. As close as I can get anyways."
[04:38:53] And he squints at me and he's like,
[04:38:57] "Okay."
[04:38:58] And then he calls his assistant over and
[04:38:59] he's like, "Get this guy a [ __ ] job
[04:39:01] offer."
[04:39:02] >> Are you [ __ ] me?
[04:39:03] >> Yeah, that was it.
[04:39:06] >> What?
[04:39:06] >> That was it. It lasted like two minutes.
[04:39:09] Um, and
[04:39:11] >> get the [ __ ] out of here.
[04:39:12] >> No, I'm not joking, dude. Like, that was
[04:39:14] it. Um,
[04:39:16] >> and he didn't know [ __ ] about you.
[04:39:17] >> He didn't know [ __ ] about me. And, uh,
[04:39:20] so he's like, "Get this guy a job
[04:39:21] offer." And so she like scuffles out and
[04:39:25] goes to like, you know, coordinate all
[04:39:26] that [ __ ]
[04:39:28] And uh he's like, "All right, I'll I'll
[04:39:30] walk you out." He's like, "So, what do
[04:39:31] you want to do here?" I'm like, "Dude,
[04:39:34] you just said like get this guy a job
[04:39:35] offer. Like, does that mean you don't
[04:39:38] how are you going to give me a job offer
[04:39:40] and not know what
[04:39:42] I'm going to do here?" He's And I didn't
[04:39:45] realize at the time, but like
[04:39:48] this is the kind of [ __ ] that happens,
[04:39:49] right? Like there's no structured
[04:39:50] process for how to have an interaction
[04:39:52] with Alex Karp, right? There's no like
[04:39:55] here's the interview flow and here are
[04:39:57] the data points he'll want before you
[04:40:00] get an offer and like here's what has to
[04:40:02] be nailed down and [ __ ] It's like it's
[04:40:04] all based on human to human vibes and
[04:40:09] whatever vibe I was putting out in that
[04:40:11] two [ __ ] minutes I had with him.
[04:40:14] He was like, "Okay, you you're you're
[04:40:17] going to fit in here." I don't know how
[04:40:19] he knew, but he knew. So, he walked me
[04:40:22] out. Uh, got the offer uh like 30
[04:40:26] minutes later like, "Hey, some [ __ ]
[04:40:27] recruiter calls me. I went and had a
[04:40:31] burger in Georgetown. Um, and the
[04:40:34] recruiter calls me while I'm trying to
[04:40:35] eat this [ __ ] burger." So, I walked
[04:40:36] out and I'm I'm like I'm like trying to
[04:40:38] negotiate with this guy. I don't know
[04:40:40] how to [ __ ] negotiate salaries. I got
[04:40:42] [ __ ] burger in my mouth. I'm like,
[04:40:44] "Uh, stock options. I don't really know
[04:40:46] what that means." Uh, okay. Well, I
[04:40:49] guess I'll go with like
[04:40:52] I didn't know that you could push back
[04:40:53] with any of this [ __ ] right? I'm like,
[04:40:55] now if someone were to come to me and
[04:40:57] give me like this here, here's your
[04:40:59] salary uh options and here's your stock
[04:41:01] option options,
[04:41:03] I'd be like, that's great. Double
[04:41:05] everything and uh and then we can have a
[04:41:07] conversation. But back then, I didn't
[04:41:09] know [ __ ] I was like, cool, I guess
[04:41:10] I'll go with option two, you know,
[04:41:13] grateful for the opportunity. He's like,
[04:41:15] cool, we'll be in touch. And um and
[04:41:17] that's how I I ended up at Palanteer.
[04:41:22] >> That's [ __ ] crazy,
[04:41:24] >> dude. Just a lot of times I'm just like
[04:41:26] I have no business in any of these
[04:41:28] [ __ ] places. I had no business at
[04:41:29] NSW, right? I had no business at
[04:41:33] Palunteer. I had. So this pattern in my
[04:41:36] life has basically been like find a way
[04:41:39] into
[04:41:41] rooms that you have no [ __ ] business
[04:41:43] in, earn your place in the room, and
[04:41:45] then figure out the next [ __ ] room.
[04:41:48] Um,
[04:41:51] Paler was cool. Um, it was it was a I'd
[04:41:55] never been exposed to a tech company
[04:41:57] before and everyone was just so [ __ ]
[04:42:00] smart. everyone was just world class at
[04:42:04] what they did. Um,
[04:42:08] and uh the the culture there,
[04:42:12] there's sort of two there's like
[04:42:14] different departments at Palanteer.
[04:42:17] There's the core product team. There are
[04:42:20] the teams that sort of maintain the
[04:42:22] long-term like customer deployments. And
[04:42:25] so, you know, uh, a bank might have
[04:42:27] signed some five-year agreement with
[04:42:29] Palunteer and these guys go and like
[04:42:32] sustain that account over the course of
[04:42:34] five years and it's got engineers on it.
[04:42:36] It's got like business development
[04:42:37] people on it and so on. Then there's the
[04:42:40] pilot teams. And that's what I [ __ ]
[04:42:43] wanted to do because the job of the
[04:42:46] pilot teams was basically,
[04:42:49] hey, Karp or whoever the [ __ ] at the
[04:42:53] very senior levels of the company have
[04:42:56] gotten this Fortune 500 organization to
[04:42:59] agree to some Palunteer pilot, right?
[04:43:02] We're going to do it for free. Here's
[04:43:04] what we're here's what's going to
[04:43:05] happen. You're gonna pick some guys.
[04:43:08] You're gonna parachute in metaphorically
[04:43:12] and you're going to
[04:43:15] do anything and everything you need to
[04:43:17] do in order to convince that customer to
[04:43:19] convert that pilot to a long-term
[04:43:22] Palunteer contract. And for me, that was
[04:43:24] the greatest [ __ ] challenge anyone
[04:43:25] could have put in front of me at the
[04:43:26] time because it felt exactly like being
[04:43:29] back at the old organization. Like,
[04:43:31] here's an ambiguous high impact tasking.
[04:43:36] Go get some [ __ ] dudes and make it
[04:43:39] happen, right? And no one's gonna tell
[04:43:41] you what to do.
[04:43:42] >> Send us some [ __ ] sit reps.
[04:43:44] Perfect. This I know how to do. Uh
[04:43:48] >> it's what every [ __ ] business is
[04:43:50] looking for.
[04:43:51] >> Yeah.
[04:43:53] Yeah. And I was like, I can't believe
[04:43:55] someone is giving me this latitude.
[04:43:58] >> At least that's what I'm looking for.
[04:43:59] >> Yeah. I hope you find it. There's um you
[04:44:02] know, one thing a bunch of them.
[04:44:04] >> Yeah.
[04:44:05] Yeah.
[04:44:07] One thing one thing I've learned is um
[04:44:10] >> I'm always looking for more.
[04:44:11] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[04:44:15] Something has happened to the work ethic
[04:44:17] like across the American workforce in
[04:44:20] the in the past few years. I don't know
[04:44:22] what the [ __ ] it is, man. Maybe it's
[04:44:23] since co but like there's just like a
[04:44:25] downward trend in like the desire to
[04:44:28] want to work hard and contribute to
[04:44:31] something and be a part of it.
[04:44:33] >> I don't know if that's true. You don't
[04:44:34] think so?
[04:44:35] >> I don't know. I mean, I'm like you. I
[04:44:37] spent the majority of my adult life in
[04:44:39] >> in
[04:44:44] special ops and intelligence agencies,
[04:44:46] and those are [ __ ] hard chargers. The
[04:44:48] majority of them, you know, and and
[04:44:51] >> everybody's the best at what the [ __ ]
[04:44:52] they do.
[04:44:53] >> Yeah.
[04:44:53] >> And then I got out and tried some [ __ ]
[04:44:56] and I noticed it immediately. Yeah.
[04:44:59] >> These people don't [ __ ] want to be
[04:45:00] here more than
[04:45:02] >> They don't want to be here past 5:00
[04:45:04] p.m.
[04:45:04] >> Yeah.
[04:45:05] >> Most of them are out before 5. Most of
[04:45:08] them don't want to come in, you know?
[04:45:09] And it's just And I just [ __ ] noticed
[04:45:12] it right off the bat.
[04:45:13] >> Yeah.
[04:45:13] >> And
[04:45:15] >> I mean, that's not how [ __ ] we operate
[04:45:16] here. But
[04:45:18] >> that's I I think that's just
[04:45:23] >> you're used to working for people that
[04:45:24] are always pushing the bar higher. Yeah.
[04:45:26] >> You know what I mean? and all of your
[04:45:28] peers are pushing the bar higher and it
[04:45:30] becomes [ __ ] competitive. Yep.
[04:45:31] >> And everybody's a perfectionist and
[04:45:33] everybody takes their job seriously. And
[04:45:35] then you get out and you're with
[04:45:39] normal
[04:45:41] performers, average people, below
[04:45:44] average people. And you know, I think a
[04:45:47] lot of them probably live happier lives
[04:45:48] than you or I
[04:45:50] >> probably. Yeah. I mean, that's something
[04:45:52] to be said. They're not the ones that
[04:45:53] are out there complaining about not
[04:45:55] having enough time with their kids and
[04:45:58] >> [ __ ] like that.
[04:46:00] >> Yeah.
[04:46:00] >> Sitting there [ __ ] eating potato
[04:46:02] chips, watching the Super Bowl on their
[04:46:04] C. Like I I just I'm not that person.
[04:46:06] Yeah. You know, you obviously aren't
[04:46:08] either. And nobody that's
[04:46:10] >> nobody that builds something like what
[04:46:13] you're building or what I'm building or
[04:46:16] any of that. Like it's just it's not in
[04:46:17] the [ __ ] DNA.
[04:46:20] But then you get exposed
[04:46:21] >> Yeah. to the average DNA and the below
[04:46:23] average DNA and people with [ __ ] no
[04:46:25] drive and and hey, they got their place
[04:46:28] in society, but I don't belong in that.
[04:46:31] >> Yeah,
[04:46:32] >> neither do I, man. And one reason that
[04:46:36] we have,
[04:46:39] you know, the things that I learned at
[04:46:40] Palanteer hiring bar, the just [ __ ]
[04:46:45] every day bring your [ __ ] aame to
[04:46:47] work. I've tried to establish that here
[04:46:50] with my co-founders at Wraithatch
[04:46:54] and I think we've done a pretty good
[04:46:55] job. We got a [ __ ] stellar crew of
[04:46:57] just stone cold hitters. I can put any
[04:46:59] [ __ ] tasking in front of them and
[04:47:01] they will just deliver without
[04:47:02] complaint. Any any tasking.
[04:47:06] Um but all of that to say
[04:47:10] um it was uh it was a unique opportunity
[04:47:13] for me to apply like if not the
[04:47:17] engineering skill set because I didn't
[04:47:19] have it at the time that I learned over
[04:47:21] the years just the
[04:47:24] whatever the [ __ ] it is right just the
[04:47:27] get after it mode
[04:47:30] and and we did um
[04:47:34] but I'm I'm never satisfied side, right?
[04:47:36] So, like I'm I'm always I'm like, "How
[04:47:39] does that work?" All right, you guys are
[04:47:41] deploying this like data pipeline. Like,
[04:47:43] okay, how's a data pipeline work? How
[04:47:45] does this [ __ ] go from one place to
[04:47:47] another? Why does it why does it work
[04:47:49] that way? What's the big [ __ ] deal?
[04:47:52] Oh, well, the big deal is when there's
[04:47:55] pabytes of data, it takes time to sift
[04:47:57] through all of it. and you can't just
[04:48:00] have someone sit down in front of all of
[04:48:02] it and do a search and then [ __ ] just
[04:48:06] magically crops up. Like there's a lot
[04:48:08] of instrumentation and pre-processing
[04:48:10] and algorithms and
[04:48:14] everything that's that's involved. So I
[04:48:16] learned I started picking up all of it.
[04:48:18] I started learning all of it. I tried
[04:48:19] building some of it on my own. Um so I I
[04:48:22] tried contributing to uh to what the
[04:48:25] engineers on my team were doing. And
[04:48:27] then over time, the scope of
[04:48:28] responsibility has just crept upward and
[04:48:30] upward, right? So, I started out with uh
[04:48:32] this commercial account in um it's a
[04:48:35] it's a department store that that's like
[04:48:37] a household name. And that was my first
[04:48:39] account. I was like, well, I've gone
[04:48:41] from [ __ ]
[04:48:43] tier tier one
[04:48:46] uh [ __ ] reconnaissance dude to uh
[04:48:50] this department store that I'm
[04:48:52] responsible for. Okay, that's cool. But
[04:48:56] I did my best, you know. Um, and I think
[04:49:00] you you just do that enough times and
[04:49:04] you you get put uh more [ __ ] gets put on
[04:49:07] your plate.
[04:49:09] Um, and eventually I found myself
[04:49:11] working like more critical and more
[04:49:13] critical accounts and um, Palanteer
[04:49:17] eventually moved me to Sydney, Australia
[04:49:20] uh, to handle their AP pack region and
[04:49:23] some of the accounts that we had there.
[04:49:24] So moved the family, packed them up to
[04:49:26] to go to Australia,
[04:49:29] was awesome. Um,
[04:49:33] and it was an opportunity for me to
[04:49:36] just apply like
[04:49:39] basic [ __ ] leadership, dude. Basic
[04:49:41] leadership like to these kid like these
[04:49:43] kids straight out of Stanford like would
[04:49:45] come on board my team and they would
[04:49:47] just look at me like, "All right, what
[04:49:48] do we do, boss?"
[04:49:50] And then I had to I had to figure it the
[04:49:53] [ __ ] out. It was interesting for me
[04:49:55] because it's not like I was a [ __ ]
[04:49:57] officer in the military, right? I didn't
[04:49:59] go to leadership. I didn't go to officer
[04:50:02] school. I didn't go to leadership
[04:50:04] training or anything.
[04:50:06] Especially in the jobs that I was
[04:50:08] working, you're working in very small,
[04:50:09] tight teams. Um, and there was not a lot
[04:50:12] of opportunity for me to like
[04:50:15] >> How do you deal with that, man? I'm I'm
[04:50:18] genuinely curious because it was I I
[04:50:20] don't either. I don't have I have zero
[04:50:23] formal leadership training
[04:50:25] >> and I'm trying to run a [ __ ] company
[04:50:27] >> and you know in the
[04:50:31] >> the I'm not good at getting in the weeds
[04:50:34] and [ __ ] every little [ __ ] thing
[04:50:36] they need to do.
[04:50:37] >> Yeah.
[04:50:38] >> I'm looking for exactly what you just
[04:50:41] described. Somebody that can this is
[04:50:43] what I want built. This is the vision.
[04:50:45] >> Yep. I'm going to give you everything
[04:50:47] you [ __ ] need to do it, but you have
[04:50:49] to figure out how to do it.
[04:50:50] >> Y
[04:50:51] >> and then
[04:50:53] they do it and they build a [ __ ] mini
[04:50:56] empire under what we're trying to do. Or
[04:50:58] they don't.
[04:50:59] >> Yeah.
[04:50:59] >> And they don't last.
[04:51:02] >> It was a process. Um
[04:51:06] I didn't know how to get it right from
[04:51:08] from day one. But
[04:51:12] what I think I'm pretty good at doing is
[04:51:14] finding myself in ambiguous situations
[04:51:17] and then relying on
[04:51:21] initiative I guess to figure it the [ __ ]
[04:51:23] out. And one way I I would figure it the
[04:51:27] [ __ ] out is I mean dude like watching
[04:51:30] Jaco was very helpful like in the early
[04:51:32] days reading Extreme Ownership like you
[04:51:36] I was talking about it with Jeremy. Why
[04:51:39] did Jaco resonate with so many
[04:51:41] civilians?
[04:51:42] There's been hundreds of [ __ ]
[04:51:45] military dudes that have come out of the
[04:51:47] military and talked about leadership
[04:51:49] lessons and so on,
[04:51:52] but the way that he expressed the ideas
[04:51:55] in his book, I think, were done in a way
[04:51:58] where it just like it clicked. It was
[04:52:00] like, okay, this is something I can
[04:52:03] tangibly apply to my job tomorrow when I
[04:52:06] go into the office,
[04:52:08] >> right?
[04:52:10] I can take ownership for stuff. I can
[04:52:13] like uh instead of antagonizing people
[04:52:16] and trying to build thiefs, I can like
[04:52:18] think about the team first. Now there
[04:52:20] are limits to this because the the game
[04:52:24] theoretic structure of a civilian
[04:52:26] company
[04:52:28] can disincentivize
[04:52:30] like if you go too overboard to the
[04:52:33] other side of the extreme ownership
[04:52:35] spectrum then like you're going to get
[04:52:36] [ __ ] right? So, it's it's a fine
[04:52:39] balance of figuring out, okay, where and
[04:52:41] how to apply those skills and you you
[04:52:43] you can do it like you can apply these
[04:52:45] tactical
[04:52:46] uh tidbits. And I think that's why he
[04:52:48] landed so well with with so many people.
[04:52:51] And that helped me out a lot in back in
[04:52:53] the day. And honestly, a lot of it was
[04:52:57] I've got 15 [ __ ] engineers looking at
[04:52:59] me for guidance on what to do. And I I
[04:53:02] was like when I was in and I looked at
[04:53:05] leadership and I wanted to know what to
[04:53:07] do from them, like what did I expect
[04:53:09] from them and I just kind of inverted it
[04:53:11] on its face and I tried to be the the
[04:53:14] leader that I always wanted to work for
[04:53:16] in the military. Now, did I get it right
[04:53:18] all the time? No [ __ ] way. I [ __ ] it
[04:53:20] up all the time. Um but it's a process.
[04:53:25] It's a constantly evolving process.
[04:53:29] Definitely being surrounded by really
[04:53:31] smart, motivated, driven people forces
[04:53:34] you to like amp up your own game. And
[04:53:39] >> it's like you're you're living in a in a
[04:53:43] crystal in a in a fishbowl basically.
[04:53:45] And it's like how do you want to act so
[04:53:48] that these people are
[04:53:52] not just inspired by you? That's that's
[04:53:54] like kind of self- serving. But like
[04:53:58] are you making these li are you making
[04:54:00] these people's lives better
[04:54:04] through the way that you're behaving and
[04:54:05] acting?
[04:54:07] So that was like one heruristic I used.
[04:54:10] I wish I had a simple answer for you,
[04:54:11] man. I don't. Um
[04:54:16] you're saying all the right things.
[04:54:18] This is a lot of the [ __ ] I think about.
[04:54:20] >> Yeah. I think I think you know
[04:54:26] I think it's important that you inspire
[04:54:28] your people. You're the [ __ ] you're
[04:54:31] you're the leader of the pack. I don't
[04:54:33] think that sounds cliche at all. They
[04:54:35] have to be
[04:54:36] >> inspired to [ __ ] work for you.
[04:54:38] Otherwise, it's going to be [ __ ] work.
[04:54:40] If they're not bought in on the [ __ ]
[04:54:41] mission, what the [ __ ] are you doing
[04:54:43] here? Get out. Yeah.
[04:54:44] >> That's the 9 to5. That's the [ __ ]
[04:54:47] >> the let's not move the bar up person.
[04:54:49] >> Yep. Y have to feel like you have to you
[04:54:52] in empower your people. You look for the
[04:54:54] people that have the [ __ ] drive that
[04:54:56] you have and you empower them. You give
[04:55:00] them everything they [ __ ] need to
[04:55:01] succeed.
[04:55:04] But if they don't take the ball and run
[04:55:07] with it,
[04:55:08] >> Yeah. the [ __ ] out.
[04:55:09] >> Get the [ __ ] out. Yeah.
[04:55:11] >> And some people haven't. Some people
[04:55:13] don't.
[04:55:13] >> Yeah.
[04:55:15] >> Most don't.
[04:55:18] >> Most don't. This this is true. Um you
[04:55:21] know a lot of people we experience this
[04:55:23] all this time all the time because you
[04:55:25] know people have this idea of what a
[04:55:27] startup is.
[04:55:30] It's been sort of made into this legend,
[04:55:32] you know, this the the tech startup,
[04:55:35] right? It's a it's a thing. They've made
[04:55:36] [ __ ] movies about it. What it really
[04:55:39] comes down to is just grinding it out
[04:55:41] day in and day out, 24 hours a day, 7
[04:55:44] days a week with no end in sight, right?
[04:55:46] and you just [ __ ] you're making [ __ ]
[04:55:48] happen all the time. And people think
[04:55:51] they want that and we'll interview
[04:55:53] candidates and they're like, "Well, you
[04:55:57] know,
[04:55:59] I'm not really cool with like working
[04:56:01] weekends."
[04:56:03] Cool, man. I understand.
[04:56:07] Go work at a big company. Um because it
[04:56:11] a startup is going to demand different
[04:56:14] things from you. It's like it's like
[04:56:16] going to [ __ ] task force and being
[04:56:17] like,
[04:56:19] "Yeah, well, don't page me on like
[04:56:22] Fridays cuz I'm not into that."
[04:56:26] >> Okay. Well, it's not what the
[04:56:28] organization needs. Um,
[04:56:34] now one thing, one thing I had always
[04:56:38] wanted since I was a kid was to like be
[04:56:41] involved with like something space
[04:56:44] exploration related. And um, you know,
[04:56:48] after enough reps at Palunteer on the
[04:56:50] pilot teams,
[04:56:53] um, I had just gotten the the routine
[04:56:56] down. You know, it's like, okay,
[04:56:58] parachute into this [ __ ]
[04:57:00] organization, bank,
[04:57:03] uh, you know, big Fortune 500,
[04:57:05] pharmaceutical, whatever it was, make
[04:57:07] friends with everybody. You're basically
[04:57:09] doing like, you know, wrecky on the
[04:57:12] ground and just making [ __ ] happen.
[04:57:16] Um, I had gotten the reps down and I was
[04:57:18] like, "Okay, I can I can go do and I had
[04:57:20] learned enough about
[04:57:22] um the ins and outs of all the
[04:57:25] engineering that was going down at these
[04:57:27] places." And uh you know we had built
[04:57:29] out entire cyber defense programs using
[04:57:31] Palunteer for a lot of our customers
[04:57:34] including entire countries like um I I
[04:57:38] was the team lead for a uh a cyber
[04:57:42] defense program that we built out for an
[04:57:44] entire country in in one particular
[04:57:46] region of the world and um and they were
[04:57:49] built on the Palunteer platform. So by
[04:57:52] this point I had developed a a good
[04:57:54] sense of what it what it takes to build
[04:57:58] a solid cyber defense and cyber defense
[04:58:02] engineering function. So, I was like,
[04:58:05] "All right, I can go do this and not
[04:58:08] just be flitting around the world doing
[04:58:10] it for Palunteer's customers, which I
[04:58:12] love doing, a great company, great
[04:58:14] organization, but I wanted to apply that
[04:58:18] to defending something tangible."
[04:58:23] And uh you know when I was a kid and I
[04:58:27] was going through all the personal [ __ ]
[04:58:29] at home, I would bury myself in uh like
[04:58:33] Star Trek books.
[04:58:36] And also I have some fond memories of
[04:58:38] watching Star Trek with my dad like you
[04:58:41] know when when things were still stable
[04:58:42] and the [ __ ] hadn't blown up and gone
[04:58:45] nuclear in the household. Like uh I I
[04:58:49] have good memories of that. And when I
[04:58:52] was a kid, I I wanted to grow up and
[04:58:55] like be the dude that invented warp
[04:58:58] drive. You know, you know, the [ __ ]
[04:59:00] the engine that they have in Star Trek
[04:59:02] that lets them, you know, travel around
[04:59:03] the the [ __ ] stars.
[04:59:07] >> You know, obviously that
[04:59:10] first of all, it's not [ __ ]
[04:59:12] physically feasible. Second of all, it's
[04:59:14] like that's not really where my life
[04:59:15] trajectory took me into advanced physics
[04:59:18] research. But
[04:59:21] I was able to build out a pretty [ __ ]
[04:59:23] baller cyber defense program and uh I
[04:59:27] came across um a job posting at SpaceX
[04:59:30] and I I had my eye on that [ __ ] place
[04:59:32] for a long time. Um
[04:59:36] and uh I saw an opening for a lead
[04:59:39] position to run their cyber security
[04:59:41] operations team.
[04:59:44] Send my resume in and the recruiter
[04:59:46] reached out to me like 15 minutes later.
[04:59:48] Are you serious?
[04:59:49] >> Yeah. Yeah. I I don't know, dude. This I
[04:59:52] mean, I say this [ __ ] out loud and
[04:59:56] I don't know. It's like I'm making it
[04:59:58] up. Um,
[05:00:00] actually, I was just talking to that
[05:00:01] recruiter the other day because I was
[05:00:04] trying to get him to come to Wraith
[05:00:05] Watch and recruit for us, but he's like,
[05:00:08] "Nah, dude. I'm I'm happy." I'm like,
[05:00:09] "You know why I remember you? Cuz I hit
[05:00:12] submit and you [ __ ] called me like 15
[05:00:15] minutes later." And I was like I was
[05:00:17] overseas at at one of the Palunteer
[05:00:19] customer sites.
[05:00:21] Um,
[05:00:25] interestingly
[05:00:26] during one of the driving courses that I
[05:00:28] went to with TAS, you remember Griffin
[05:00:30] Group down in Florida.
[05:00:32] >> I never sent any guys down there, but
[05:00:34] they would do this like
[05:00:35] >> driving course and you do all the
[05:00:37] [ __ ] [ __ ] like you do the pit
[05:00:39] maneuvers and all that.
[05:00:41] They do the rollovers and you do the
[05:00:43] break contract, the break contact after
[05:00:45] the rollovers and all that [ __ ] And uh
[05:00:49] in 2010, I remember going down to a
[05:00:51] Griffin Group course in Florida and it
[05:00:53] was a couple of miles the their uh their
[05:00:57] racetrack that they were doing all this
[05:00:58] [ __ ] on was a few miles away from Cape
[05:01:01] Canaveral. And so we had just gone
[05:01:03] through like one evolution of like
[05:01:06] pitting everybody and all the cars were
[05:01:08] [ __ ] up and we pull them all over to
[05:01:09] the side. There's like [ __ ] oil
[05:01:11] leaking around everywhere. And we're
[05:01:12] getting out. We're doing a debrief and
[05:01:14] then we hear a rocket launching behind
[05:01:17] us and we're like that's [ __ ] cool.
[05:01:21] Like didn't have that on the schedule.
[05:01:23] So, we turn around and we look at the
[05:01:25] rocket and it's coming up off the deck
[05:01:28] from Canaveral, which is just over the
[05:01:30] horizon a bit. And um and it was like no
[05:01:34] rocket I had ever seen before. It was
[05:01:38] spin long, spindly. It was completely
[05:01:40] white. It looked kind of futuristic. And
[05:01:43] I was like, "That's a very strange
[05:01:44] looking rocket. I've never seen anything
[05:01:46] like that before."
[05:01:47] I was telling that story to my
[05:01:50] girlfriend many years later and she was
[05:01:51] like that was the [ __ ] you know,
[05:01:53] CRS1 mission from SpaceX to the
[05:01:57] International Space Station. That was
[05:01:58] the first mission that we had launched
[05:02:00] to take supplies to the International
[05:02:02] Space Station for the first time. And
[05:02:04] she's like, "What are the [ __ ]
[05:02:06] chances that you got to see that [ __ ]
[05:02:08] while you were in this random ass
[05:02:09] driving course in Florida?"
[05:02:15] >> [ __ ] just happens, dude. I don't know.
[05:02:16] Um
[05:02:20] so, uh
[05:02:24] SpaceX was um
[05:02:27] was amazing. Um it is the [ __ ] you
[05:02:32] know Elon used to say it is the special
[05:02:34] forces of tech companies and I always
[05:02:37] thought that was dumb like having come
[05:02:38] out of the community. I was like you
[05:02:40] don't know what that means. But then I
[05:02:42] got there and I'm like yeah I get it.
[05:02:44] you know, he's trying to he's trying to
[05:02:45] rally everyone and inspire people and
[05:02:48] get them to understand that they're
[05:02:50] working at a company like no other. Um,
[05:02:54] and everyone was just locked the [ __ ] in
[05:02:57] to the company mission. If you you ever
[05:02:59] been to the headquarters over there?
[05:03:01] >> So, when you walk into the headquarters
[05:03:03] and you go to the Chow Hall upstairs,
[05:03:06] >> they have one of the most inspiring
[05:03:08] things I've ever seen in my life painted
[05:03:10] as a mural on the wall of the Chow Hall.
[05:03:13] and it is a sequence of images
[05:03:19] uh displaying Mars through various
[05:03:22] phases of terraforming.
[05:03:25] So you see Mars as it exists today as a
[05:03:27] completely dead red planet and then you
[05:03:30] see it as like with some green and some
[05:03:34] water and then you see it with more
[05:03:35] green and more water and then you see it
[05:03:37] as this lush beautiful Jurassic Park
[05:03:40] looking planet at at the end. So,
[05:03:42] there's like four
[05:03:45] um four stages to that mural. And you
[05:03:47] walk past that [ __ ] thing every day
[05:03:48] to get food and you're like, there is no
[05:03:51] question what we're trying to do here.
[05:03:53] We're trying to make this happen for
[05:03:57] humanity
[05:03:59] on time scales that we're not wired to
[05:04:01] think about as humans, right? It's going
[05:04:02] to take us hundreds of years to have
[05:04:05] that vision come to fruition.
[05:04:08] But they somehow managed to encapsulate
[05:04:11] that into this mural that they painted
[05:04:13] on the wall. And when you would walk by
[05:04:15] it, there was no [ __ ] question about
[05:04:17] what the [ __ ] you were doing at on any
[05:04:19] given day. It was support that. That's
[05:04:21] why you're here. That's why you gave up
[05:04:23] everything else that you were that you
[05:04:25] were doing and you decided to sign up
[05:04:26] for this for this grind at SpaceX. And
[05:04:28] it was a grind. But you walk in there,
[05:04:32] you look at the factory floor, there's
[05:04:34] one section of the chow hall that's over
[05:04:36] overlooking mission control. and it's
[05:04:38] overlooking the factory and you remember
[05:04:42] that feeling that I told you about the
[05:04:44] uh the NSW compound and there's just
[05:04:47] like [ __ ] going on, you know? You feel
[05:04:49] like you're part of a a big machine, a
[05:04:52] big impactful machine. It feels like
[05:04:54] that at SpaceX, too. Just rockets being
[05:04:56] like moved around from one side of the
[05:04:59] factory to another. There's engines
[05:05:01] being uh manufactured over in one corner
[05:05:04] over there. There's footage from some
[05:05:08] capsule that's in orbit right now being
[05:05:09] piped into mission control. Um, it was
[05:05:13] just you're in the center of the world
[05:05:16] as it pertains to human space flight.
[05:05:18] And at the time we were getting ready to
[05:05:20] send humans up on the first Crew Dragon
[05:05:25] spacecraft. Um, because before then it
[05:05:28] had all been cargo.
[05:05:30] So, we had crew raided the Dragon
[05:05:33] spacecraft
[05:05:34] and the whole company was getting jocked
[05:05:37] up to to send uh we called them Doug and
[05:05:40] Bob. I forget their last names, but
[05:05:41] there were these two NASA astronauts and
[05:05:43] their faces were plastered everywhere
[05:05:47] in the sense of everything you guys do
[05:05:50] is to support these two gentlemen with
[05:05:53] who have families, kids to get to the
[05:05:57] space station safely. Any [ __ ] up is
[05:06:00] gonna [ __ ] them up and it's gonna [ __ ]
[05:06:01] their families up. So get it right. Get
[05:06:04] everything you're doing to every layer
[05:06:06] of attention and level of detail right
[05:06:10] all the time.
[05:06:12] Cool. High performance environment. This
[05:06:14] I can deal with.
[05:06:17] Um and my job, my team's job at the time
[05:06:20] was to uh basically be on the front
[05:06:22] lines of um the the cyber defense
[05:06:26] function. Um at the time we had stolen a
[05:06:28] bunch of market share stolen we had
[05:06:30] captured a bunch of market share from
[05:06:32] the Russians right so Russia used to
[05:06:35] make a big deal about
[05:06:37] you know um
[05:06:40] one of them like the head of the Russian
[05:06:42] space agency was like if you didn't have
[05:06:43] us you're not getting into space unless
[05:06:45] you have a big ass trampoline or some
[05:06:47] [ __ ] and then I think Elon was like well
[05:06:50] we're about to make a big ass trampoline
[05:06:52] so stand the [ __ ] by. Um, so the
[05:06:55] Russians were none too happy that
[05:06:59] a private company like SpaceX was about
[05:07:00] to reinvigorate human space flight on
[05:07:04] behalf of the United States of America.
[05:07:05] Finally, there was going to be a rocket
[05:07:08] carrying the [ __ ] stars and stripes
[05:07:10] carrying humans to the space station,
[05:07:13] which hadn't been the case since the
[05:07:14] space shuttle got retired in 2011,
[05:07:16] right? We had we had nothing to back us
[05:07:20] up. all all of the NASA astronauts had
[05:07:23] to ride share off of the uh the
[05:07:25] Russians,
[05:07:28] which is like a really interesting
[05:07:29] thing. You know, you can be these
[05:07:32] geopolitical enemies and some small
[05:07:36] portion of your two countries'
[05:07:40] governments can work together to get
[05:07:43] people up into space and then get back.
[05:07:46] Now, there's obviously a [ __ ] ton of
[05:07:47] politics around it, but like as far as
[05:07:49] like the engineers on on each side.
[05:07:54] >> Anyway,
[05:07:54] >> that's interesting. I actually didn't
[05:07:55] know that.
[05:07:56] >> Um,
[05:07:58] now
[05:08:00] the team I inherited when I when I
[05:08:03] landed there, um, it was this like rag
[05:08:07] tag group of just randos. There were
[05:08:11] like two guys that were on the security
[05:08:16] analysis side and they were just like
[05:08:19] drowning in like alerts every single day
[05:08:24] from like people trying to hack into the
[05:08:25] network
[05:08:27] and they would work like just the two of
[05:08:29] them 24 hours a day. One would work a
[05:08:32] 12-h hour shift, the other one would
[05:08:34] work 12 hours, other one comes back for
[05:08:35] 12 hours. Just two guys over and over
[05:08:37] again for years. It was it was that way.
[05:08:40] Then there were a couple of other guys
[05:08:41] on the engineering side that were
[05:08:42] building a lot of the kind of strategic
[05:08:45] controls around everything. And then um
[05:08:49] uh then there was my girlfriend uh Grace
[05:08:53] who was running the insider threat
[05:08:56] program uh at the time. So she was
[05:08:58] responsible for the technical insider
[05:09:01] threat and counter espionage program
[05:09:03] over there. And the idea was
[05:09:07] so all of them were kind of working
[05:09:08] independently. So like these guys were
[05:09:10] working over here doing all the alert
[05:09:11] analysis and these guys were like doing
[05:09:13] all the engineering [ __ ] and she was
[05:09:14] kind of lone wolf you know doing the
[05:09:17] insider threat counter espionage piece
[05:09:20] and they
[05:09:23] were lacking in like a vision for like
[05:09:26] what this [ __ ] team was supposed to
[05:09:28] be and I was like okay I I can do this I
[05:09:33] can come in here and like provide some
[05:09:36] leadership. So like morale was low too
[05:09:39] because like 3 days into my tenure
[05:09:41] there, I just moved from Australia
[05:09:45] back to Southern California to work at
[05:09:48] this place. And 3 days into my tenure,
[05:09:51] they call in all hands and like 1,500
[05:09:55] people or some [ __ ] got laid off uh for
[05:09:58] whatever reason. I'm like, what the [ __ ]
[05:10:00] is going on here, dude? Like I just
[05:10:02] moved here from the other side of the
[05:10:03] world. I could have easily stayed in
[05:10:05] Australia and just like hung out, you
[05:10:07] know, and uh so morale was morale was in
[05:10:10] the [ __ ]
[05:10:12] Um and generally like the cyber defense
[05:10:14] function there was
[05:10:17] this kind of like offbeat off-the-wall
[05:10:20] like team that no one really paid
[05:10:22] attention to. Um so I came in there, I
[05:10:26] was like here's what we're going to do.
[05:10:29] We're going to fuse all these
[05:10:30] capabilities into a cohesive unit and
[05:10:33] we're going to apply what you guys are
[05:10:35] doing to this counter espionage [ __ ]
[05:10:38] over here. We're going to walk over to
[05:10:40] that physical security team that's on
[05:10:42] the other side of the office here and
[05:10:45] we're going to train them up on some of
[05:10:47] the [ __ ] that we're doing and seeing on
[05:10:49] this side because at the end of the day,
[05:10:51] those guys are on the front lines of
[05:10:54] [ __ ] Because if some Russian dude walks
[05:10:56] in and like is waving a USB stick
[05:11:00] around, well, who's going to be the
[05:11:02] first line of defense? It's like, I got
[05:11:04] six people on my team. It's going to be
[05:11:06] the 50 security guards that are floating
[05:11:09] around the various areas of SpaceX. So
[05:11:12] what I tried to do
[05:11:15] was to fuse and propagate um it just
[05:11:21] information about how this team worked,
[05:11:23] what it did, and what the goals were in
[05:11:25] order to ramp this [ __ ] company up
[05:11:27] and get it ready for this uh human space
[05:11:29] flight. And we were subject to attack
[05:11:31] all the time, dude. Like you know,
[05:11:36] name your [ __ ] adversary country and
[05:11:38] they were after us like all the [ __ ]
[05:11:40] time. And not just digitally over the
[05:11:42] network, like they would send dudes
[05:11:46] >> like on site and [ __ ] We would get
[05:11:48] tippers from our federal partners all
[05:11:50] the time. Actually, like a week into my
[05:11:53] tenure there, I get a call from my boss.
[05:11:54] He's like, "Hey, you know, we got we got
[05:11:57] a tip that there might be some [ __ ]
[05:11:58] North Korean like implant on one of our
[05:12:01] device." I was like, I'm on my way home.
[05:12:03] It's like 6 o'clock in the evening.
[05:12:05] [ __ ] U-turn. Roll back into the
[05:12:07] office. And then we just start cranking
[05:12:09] through like we start pulling like every
[05:12:12] [ __ ] laptop from the building that we
[05:12:13] can get our hands on and like running
[05:12:14] forensics on it to try and figure out
[05:12:16] like all right, how can we find this
[05:12:18] [ __ ] thing? Amongst any other uh
[05:12:21] actions that we took for that one. Um
[05:12:23] but we would we would establish
[05:12:25] relationships with our federal partners
[05:12:27] um who weren't used to really working
[05:12:29] with the the cyber security team and um
[05:12:33] they would send us tippers. Uh, we'd
[05:12:36] have all kinds of [ __ ] go down, you
[05:12:37] know. Russians would like be jumping the
[05:12:39] fences and [ __ ] trying to like break
[05:12:41] into the building, plug in malware, plug
[05:12:43] in USBs, [ __ ] convincing employees to
[05:12:48] uh to take them around to various places
[05:12:50] in the building. One really cool thing
[05:12:52] was um as as we started turning the
[05:12:56] flywheel a bit more, again, I I don't
[05:12:59] mean to say like I was the one
[05:13:01] responsible for all this [ __ ] but
[05:13:04] >> I did come in there and I kind of looked
[05:13:06] at the lay of the land and I was like,
[05:13:08] "All right, these people need like
[05:13:11] more of a why the [ __ ] like why and
[05:13:14] what? Like what is it that we're doing
[05:13:16] here and why are we doing it?" And I
[05:13:17] think I was able to energize their
[05:13:20] activities with with those things. And
[05:13:24] as the team started to get a little bit
[05:13:26] more prominent and we started to get
[05:13:28] facetime with more of the employees, it
[05:13:31] started paying off. It started paying
[05:13:33] off because
[05:13:35] you would have SpaceX employees that
[05:13:37] were sitting around and they would just
[05:13:39] start reporting stuff to us proactively
[05:13:41] like, "Yo, this dude was like asking me
[05:13:43] some weird questions at the parking
[05:13:44] garage across the street. like here's
[05:13:46] what he looked like, all this [ __ ] And
[05:13:48] we passed that to the physical security
[05:13:49] team. One time a dude with a Slavic
[05:13:53] accent and a very Slavic look about him.
[05:13:56] Got into the building and uh approaches
[05:14:00] an engineer
[05:14:01] at the chow hall. And he's like, "Hey
[05:14:03] man, I'm looking for the printer room."
[05:14:06] And this engineer is like, "How do you
[05:14:08] not know where the printer room is?"
[05:14:10] Like everyone knows where that [ __ ] is.
[05:14:12] He's like, and then this dude starts
[05:14:14] getting nervous. She's like, "Well, I
[05:14:15] just need to like, you know, plug this
[05:14:18] thing into the printer." And this guy
[05:14:21] who like we had managed to train as part
[05:14:25] of our
[05:14:27] uh like we we started this outreach
[05:14:30] program and we're trying to train the
[05:14:31] company like, "All right, here's how the
[05:14:32] adversary is going to try and come get
[05:14:34] us, right?" So, this dude had sat
[05:14:36] through that training and he was like,
[05:14:38] "Oh, cool, man. Uh yeah, I'll walk you
[05:14:41] over to the printer room." He like he
[05:14:44] walks him straight out the glass door
[05:14:46] and then locks the [ __ ] door behind
[05:14:48] him and then calls security
[05:14:50] and uh and that [ __ ] dude got taken
[05:14:53] away and then another and then the
[05:14:55] security guards we train them up and
[05:14:58] >> we kind of made them feel important,
[05:15:00] right? Cuz these are contract security
[05:15:01] guards and they're all jocked up and
[05:15:03] [ __ ] like you know SpaceX did a good job
[05:15:04] of, you know, making it clear like don't
[05:15:06] [ __ ] with these dudes because it's in
[05:15:07] the middle of Hawthorne, California.
[05:15:09] It's like kind of [ __ ] area of LA.
[05:15:12] Um, and we told the security guards,
[05:15:14] "All right, look, here's how these
[05:15:15] people operate. Here's what they'll try
[05:15:18] and do, and here's why they'll try and
[05:15:19] do it." And those guys felt jacked up,
[05:15:23] dude. They were like, "This is awesome.
[05:15:24] Like, no one's tried to like involve us
[05:15:26] in any of this [ __ ] Like, we just stand
[05:15:27] guard out here, you know?" And so then
[05:15:30] one time uh the guards spot a vehicle
[05:15:34] and there's like a dude like holding a
[05:15:37] [ __ ] antenna out of the vehicle and
[05:15:40] the guards are like hey this vehicle
[05:15:42] drove by. Some dude was like holding
[05:15:44] what looked like an antenna out of it. I
[05:15:45] was like perfect. Hey let's get on the
[05:15:47] network and figure out is there any
[05:15:49] weird [ __ ] going on on the network.
[05:15:51] Let's figure out what happened to that
[05:15:52] vehicle where it went. So you know it
[05:15:54] started paying off because now it wasn't
[05:15:57] just my six guys. right now. I had
[05:15:59] >> [ __ ] organization,
[05:16:00] >> whole organization that was serving as a
[05:16:02] force multiplier for me.
[05:16:05] >> Uh
[05:16:08] yeah, so that was interesting. And on
[05:16:11] the counter espionage side, we got so
[05:16:15] good at some of the like Minority Report
[05:16:18] type [ __ ] that we were doing that one
[05:16:22] thing we came to realize was the
[05:16:23] following. Um,
[05:16:27] people's behavior manifests in what
[05:16:30] they're doing on the [ __ ] keyboard,
[05:16:32] even if they're at work. Like behavior
[05:16:34] manifests in bits is the is the phrase
[05:16:35] that we came up with. So, a lot of the
[05:16:38] time this like old school counter
[05:16:40] espionage like counter intelligence uh
[05:16:43] um tradecraft, you know, you talk to
[05:16:46] some old school counter intel guy,
[05:16:48] what's he going to tell you? It's like,
[05:16:50] look for the expensive car in the
[05:16:52] parking lot. It's like, dude, this is a
[05:16:54] tech company and our share price is X.
[05:16:56] Everyone has a [ __ ] expensive car.
[05:16:58] Okay, that [ __ ] is just not going to
[05:17:00] work around here. So, we need to think
[05:17:02] outside the box. It's [ __ ] 2019.
[05:17:06] How are these people going to try and do
[05:17:07] their [ __ ]
[05:17:09] And so, we would discover I mean,
[05:17:12] through through the course of lots of
[05:17:13] trial and error,
[05:17:14] >> prostitution.
[05:17:15] >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, that too. um through
[05:17:18] the course of trial and error that if
[05:17:19] you start piecing together indicators
[05:17:21] from different sources that you could
[05:17:24] predict with a very high level of
[05:17:26] accuracy that some dude was going to be
[05:17:28] up to some [ __ ] in some x period of
[05:17:31] time. So like I'll give you an example.
[05:17:33] Let's say a dude all of a sudden starts
[05:17:36] buying extra swag from the company swag
[05:17:38] store and around the same time starts
[05:17:42] extra double-checking his stock options
[05:17:44] in the stock option system. Okay, those
[05:17:47] two indicators right there are like, all
[05:17:50] right, this dude's getting ready to he's
[05:17:52] he's like double-checking his his
[05:17:54] shares. He's getting souvenirs. He's
[05:17:56] like getting ready to pop smoke, right?
[05:17:58] So, that's a very small example of
[05:18:00] indicators that we were able to piece
[05:18:02] together and we had many more of them
[05:18:04] where we could be able to predict with a
[05:18:06] high level of accuracy what was going
[05:18:07] on. Now, this speaks to your question
[05:18:10] from your Patreon uh audience member
[05:18:14] from earlier, right? what is the what's
[05:18:16] the line?
[05:18:18] And that was always on the forefront of
[05:18:19] our minds, right? At no point did we
[05:18:21] want to go all the way to the end of the
[05:18:23] spectrum where we were dropping like key
[05:18:25] loggers on everyone's machines. But at
[05:18:26] the same time, the same tools that we
[05:18:30] had to detect the Russian hackers and
[05:18:34] the Chinese hackers and all that [ __ ]
[05:18:36] with just a little bit of repurposing
[05:18:39] and looking at the data through a
[05:18:41] different lens
[05:18:43] would surface this kind of [ __ ]
[05:18:44] internally. And um and so we were able
[05:18:47] to
[05:18:49] we were able to stand that up pretty
[05:18:51] pretty successfully. And then all of
[05:18:52] those lessons of course translated to to
[05:18:55] Andre um about three4s of my way
[05:18:58] through.
[05:18:58] >> Why did you leave SpaceX?
[05:19:01] >> And
[05:19:03] um was well known to me at even when I
[05:19:06] was at Palunteer, you know, uh so Brian
[05:19:09] Shy, the CEO of Andre, he was a very
[05:19:12] renowned engineer at Palunteer. He
[05:19:14] actually did my onboarding at Palanteer.
[05:19:17] He like came in and gave us a big talk
[05:19:18] on uh a lot of the engineering
[05:19:21] subsystems.
[05:19:22] And when he left to start Andreal, there
[05:19:24] was like whispers floating around like,
[05:19:26] "Yo, Brian left to start this thing.
[05:19:28] Like, must be legit, dude." Um, but no
[05:19:32] one knew what they were doing, right?
[05:19:35] So then I got an email from an Android
[05:19:37] recruiter and they're like, "Hey, we got
[05:19:40] your name from the Palunteer like bro
[05:19:41] network. we want you to come be our
[05:19:44] first like cyber security engineer. I
[05:19:47] was like, "Yeah, let's let's go." I So,
[05:19:52] I didn't want to leave SpaceX, but by
[05:19:55] this point, I we've talked about this a
[05:19:58] lot, right? You get
[05:20:00] >> you get into a routine. It's like you
[05:20:03] >> you make the machine turn
[05:20:06] >> and then you start
[05:20:08] >> like trying to figure out what's next,
[05:20:10] right? Where can I have more of an
[05:20:11] impact?
[05:20:13] So, and knowing that they were working
[05:20:17] on um well, after I went and met him on
[05:20:20] site, knowing what the vision was going
[05:20:22] to be that they were going to get
[05:20:23] involved with, you know, producing the
[05:20:25] next generation of advanced weapon
[05:20:27] systems, I was like, "Okay, this is an
[05:20:29] opportunity for me to take all the
[05:20:32] lessons I've learned over the years,
[05:20:34] both on the people side, on the
[05:20:35] leadership side, on the technical side,
[05:20:38] and then bring it all home into this
[05:20:40] kind of
[05:20:42] one final act before I start my own
[05:20:44] [ __ ] company, right? So, Andrew at
[05:20:46] the time was a hundred people. Everyone
[05:20:49] knew each other. We would like order
[05:20:51] pizza and like sit around and uh and
[05:20:54] [ __ ] over lunch.
[05:20:56] Now, take that initial list of 100
[05:20:59] people
[05:21:01] and add that list to the company roster
[05:21:04] every single
[05:21:06] month for 48 months straight. And
[05:21:10] >> holy [ __ ] scaled out that fast. That's
[05:21:13] how [ __ ] fast we scaled.
[05:21:15] >> Wow.
[05:21:18] >> Um,
[05:21:18] >> wow.
[05:21:20] >> So to build a cyber defense program in
[05:21:23] that landscape was one of the most
[05:21:26] challenging,
[05:21:28] you know, problems that I had to endure
[05:21:31] in my career. One thing I don't like
[05:21:34] doing is um I don't like taking the easy
[05:21:37] way out and saying, "All right, I'm just
[05:21:40] going to come in and [ __ ] hire a
[05:21:41] bunch of dudes. Give me budget. Give me
[05:21:43] headcount."
[05:21:45] I feel like you have to earn that first.
[05:21:49] And I got in there and I wanted to earn
[05:21:52] the headcount, right? So I started doing
[05:21:55] all all the [ __ ] engineering myself.
[05:21:57] I started like deploying out the the
[05:22:00] cyber defense controls and like working
[05:22:03] with the customer at at the time our our
[05:22:06] main customer I think was CBP. So we
[05:22:08] were deploying these autonomous
[05:22:09] surveillance towers to the southern
[05:22:10] border. This was around like Trump Trump
[05:22:12] 1 um towards the tail end of Trump 1.
[05:22:17] And so he wanted this like virtual
[05:22:19] border wall essentially down there. And
[05:22:21] the Ander surveillance towers were a
[05:22:23] core component of that. and several
[05:22:25] hundred of them were deployed uh for CBP
[05:22:28] down to the southern border. And one of
[05:22:31] the threats that we were trying to uh
[05:22:34] defend against was,
[05:22:36] okay, what if some criminal element
[05:22:39] walked up to one of these [ __ ] things
[05:22:40] and was able to hack into it or uh shut
[05:22:44] it down in some way? You know, there's
[05:22:46] always a thing, well, why don't they
[05:22:47] just put a [ __ ] bullet through it,
[05:22:48] right? Well, maybe they want to be a bit
[05:22:50] more stealthy than that, depending on
[05:22:52] their objectives. Okay, so how do we
[05:22:53] harden these [ __ ] things?
[05:22:56] How do we track who has the ability to
[05:22:59] remote access into them? Like which
[05:23:00] engineers at the company have access to
[05:23:03] remote into them? How we how do we audit
[05:23:04] what those engineers are doing? Because
[05:23:05] if one of them gets flipped by one of
[05:23:08] these transnational criminal
[05:23:09] organizations, that could be a problem.
[05:23:12] Um, and so we're we're thinking and
[05:23:15] coming up with all this [ __ ] And most
[05:23:16] importantly, we're translating this to
[05:23:18] the customer. So, we're sitting with the
[05:23:19] CBP people and we're saying, "Here's how
[05:23:21] we're thinking about this threat model.
[05:23:23] Here's how we're thinking about
[05:23:23] defending it." And they [ __ ] loved
[05:23:24] us, dude. Um, but I don't think a vendor
[05:23:26] had like ever sat with them and tried to
[05:23:30] collaborate in that way with them.
[05:23:33] Um,
[05:23:36] and and I knew that the future held more
[05:23:38] exotic [ __ ] right? I knew we were going
[05:23:40] to get into the drone business. I knew
[05:23:41] we were going to get into uh, you know,
[05:23:43] probably one day we're going to make
[05:23:45] fixed wing aircraft. And one thing I
[05:23:47] wanted to get right very early was I
[05:23:50] wanted to tie together all of the
[05:23:52] functions that I was responsible for at
[05:23:55] SpaceX into one roof to include the
[05:23:57] weapon system security angle of it. So
[05:24:00] let's say you have a submarine that
[05:24:02] you're building as a company and
[05:24:06] the [ __ ] adversary gets their hands
[05:24:08] on the submarine. They're going to do
[05:24:11] some [ __ ] to it, right? They're going to
[05:24:12] try capturing it, reverse engineering
[05:24:14] it, breaking in, hacking it, seeing how
[05:24:16] it works. Is there [ __ ] data on it
[05:24:18] that's useful for their operations? So,
[05:24:21] a large part of it is all right, how do
[05:24:23] we secure that [ __ ] thing from the
[05:24:25] Chinese dude on the Chinese sigant boat
[05:24:27] that's going to scoop this submarine up
[05:24:29] from the water and then plug into its
[05:24:32] debug port, right? Which they will do.
[05:24:35] Um, but you can't look at that in
[05:24:38] isolation because there's a whole litany
[05:24:41] of [ __ ] happening to the left of that.
[05:24:43] Long before that submarine gets in the
[05:24:44] water, long before that fighter aircraft
[05:24:47] gets in the air, long before that drone
[05:24:49] launches down range, that counter UAS
[05:24:51] system. Well, that stuff talks to
[05:24:54] something, right? There's communication
[05:24:55] back holes coming off those weapon
[05:24:57] systems. There's uh there's
[05:25:00] communication termination points like
[05:25:02] that sit on servers somewhere. There's
[05:25:05] engineers that have access to those
[05:25:06] servers. There's ground control
[05:25:07] stations. So, it becomes this mesh
[05:25:08] network of [ __ ] that becomes
[05:25:12] you basically encounter this
[05:25:14] combinatorial explosion of of just
[05:25:18] complexity essentially um for every new
[05:25:21] system you add to that graph, right?
[05:25:24] Uh
[05:25:26] so we had to get ahead of all of that
[05:25:27] very quickly
[05:25:30] and um and it was challenging because
[05:25:32] the company's growing by 100 people
[05:25:34] every four weeks like whole is insane.
[05:25:37] So every decision that you kick the can
[05:25:40] on you're going to pay for it when the
[05:25:42] company is plus 500 people plus a
[05:25:45] thousand people.
[05:25:46] >> That's a thousand times the complexity
[05:25:49] that you're going to have to contend
[05:25:50] with. So, it's not a function of, hey,
[05:25:52] can I do all this stuff now? It's what
[05:25:55] are the things I can't get to right now
[05:25:57] that I can be okay paying for later when
[05:26:01] the complexity ramps up asymtoically,
[05:26:05] goes vertical. Um, the these were the
[05:26:08] trade-offs that um
[05:26:11] that I encountered in the early days.
[05:26:13] So, I uh I brought um I brought Grace
[05:26:19] over from uh from SpaceX. Um you know,
[05:26:22] we we hadn't we hadn't started we hadn't
[05:26:24] started dating yet. Um I brought over a
[05:26:27] couple other dudes I knew from SpaceX.
[05:26:30] We built out the program. We scaled the
[05:26:32] program to like 85 people on the
[05:26:34] security team.
[05:26:36] uh and um and then ultimately became uh
[05:26:41] chief information security officer. It's
[05:26:44] just one of those things, right? It's
[05:26:45] like it's not a thing that I was
[05:26:46] shooting for, but you [ __ ] do good
[05:26:49] [ __ ] Keep your head down,
[05:26:52] man, dude. That it it [ __ ] happens.
[05:26:55] And then same thing with the CIO. Um so
[05:26:58] then I got all I got it, I got business
[05:27:00] systems, I got everything. And and the
[05:27:02] challenge there is
[05:27:06] there's a couple different types of CIOS
[05:27:08] in the world, right? One of them is
[05:27:11] this blowhard that doesn't know [ __ ] and
[05:27:15] that's constantly talking about digital
[05:27:17] transformation this and like you know AI
[05:27:21] that the other one
[05:27:24] understands that
[05:27:27] your sole job as a CIO is to make the
[05:27:29] company run more efficiently. Like every
[05:27:32] [ __ ] [ __ ] piece of friction that
[05:27:35] an employee internally has to encounter
[05:27:38] in the course of doing their job, is
[05:27:40] there a way that that can be abstracted
[05:27:42] off and automated with software? So
[05:27:45] you're basically building like these
[05:27:47] internal startups at the company to
[05:27:50] >> deliver
[05:27:52] software that's making the company more
[05:27:54] efficient. Uh so that was that was the
[05:27:57] the job with the CIO. I mean certainly
[05:27:59] it was an acquired taste for me. you
[05:28:01] know, I came out of the security world
[05:28:03] and um you know, now I'm like having
[05:28:06] meetings about like
[05:28:09] how do we make our, you know,
[05:28:11] manufacturing software more efficient.
[05:28:12] I'm like, okay. So, I'm like reading
[05:28:15] books on like ERPs and like
[05:28:17] manufacturing software and [ __ ] and like
[05:28:19] product life cycle management software.
[05:28:21] I'm like, Jesus Christ, I I don't know
[05:28:22] how any of this [ __ ] works, but I'll
[05:28:24] figure it out.
[05:28:25] >> Oh, damn, dude.
[05:28:27] That's [ __ ] impressive.
[05:28:30] Holy [ __ ]
[05:28:32] >> All from a [ __ ] recruiting fair, huh?
[05:28:34] >> All All from uh All from the recruiter
[05:28:36] reaching out. Yeah.
[05:28:37] >> Good thing you had those weapon squalls
[05:28:39] on your
[05:28:39] >> I know, right? Yeah. Good thing I had
[05:28:40] the [ __ ] GLM on my resume back in the
[05:28:43] day.
[05:28:44] >> Let's take a break real quick.
[05:28:45] >> Yeah.
[05:28:48] >> Hi, I'm Sarah Adams, the host of
[05:28:51] Vigilance Elites, The Watch Floor, where
[05:28:54] we highlight what matters. It became a
[05:28:56] permissive state. Explain to you why it
[05:28:59] matters and then aim to leave you
[05:29:02] feeling better informed than you were
[05:29:04] before you hit play. Terrorists hostile
[05:29:07] intelligence agencies
[05:29:10] organized crime. Not everything is
[05:29:13] urgent, but this show will focus on what
[05:29:15] is need to know, not just what is nice
[05:29:18] to know.
[05:29:27] Do you feel it that something's off?
[05:29:29] >> This is propaganda as a weapon.
[05:29:32] >> The revolutionary audio docu series.
[05:29:35] >> It's essential for the experiment that
[05:29:36] you continue.
[05:29:37] >> Hosted by Shawn Ryan.
[05:29:39] >> They're called SCOPS
[05:29:41] >> is now available to you for free.
[05:29:43] >> There's no question that it is my
[05:29:46] control.
[05:29:47] >> Hear from whistleblowers.
[05:29:48] >> Why have I got a letter from the CIA?
[05:29:50] Shocking insights from experts.
[05:29:52] >> If you've ever wondered who's really
[05:29:54] pulling the strings, it's time to find
[05:29:57] out.
[05:30:00] >> Target Intelligence SCOP, an ironclad
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[05:30:07] today wherever you get your podcasts or
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[05:30:13] This is Ironclad.
[05:30:19] All right, Nick, we're back from the
[05:30:20] break. Forgot one other thing, too.
[05:30:24] Everybody gets these at the beginning,
[05:30:25] but we'll wait till damn near the end
[05:30:27] for you.
[05:30:29] >> Vigilance League gummy bears.
[05:30:30] >> Thanks, man.
[05:30:31] >> Made in the USA. Legal in all 50 states.
[05:30:34] >> There you go.
[05:30:35] >> Just [ __ ] candy.
[05:30:36] >> Just gummies.
[05:30:37] >> That's it. That's it.
[05:30:39] >> Sick. Thanks, man. Appreciate it. you uh
[05:30:45] Jeremy was telling me you got you guys
[05:30:47] are making like a phone.
[05:30:50] >> Yeah.
[05:30:50] >> Tell me about it.
[05:30:53] >> Uh
[05:30:55] well, we're not making a phone. So,
[05:30:56] here's so the backstory on this. Um
[05:31:01] I get [ __ ] paranoid, you know, just
[05:31:03] like we were talking about. I think we
[05:31:05] were talking about it at breakfast, but
[05:31:06] I get I just get I get [ __ ] paranoid,
[05:31:09] man. the, you know, last year before the
[05:31:12] election, I interviewed
[05:31:15] half the administration, which means I'm
[05:31:17] connected to half the administration
[05:31:20] and um
[05:31:25] sometimes I get calls when they're angry
[05:31:26] at me and uh and uh but no, not only
[05:31:30] that, but I mean, you know, we've I told
[05:31:32] you about the Colleen Georgesci thing
[05:31:33] where I went to Romania and then I was
[05:31:35] approached by some uh former or maybe
[05:31:39] still current intel folks when I got
[05:31:41] back home because that that that that
[05:31:43] that election was that that was a
[05:31:46] fraudulent election and um the EU was
[05:31:50] meddling in that election and uh we had
[05:31:53] 10 and something thousand people [ __ ]
[05:31:55] show up in front of the parliament when
[05:31:56] we left uh because of a a selfie video
[05:32:00] that I posted. Um, I mean that they were
[05:32:03] already up in arms went and I mean I
[05:32:05] know you you uh you you have to working
[05:32:09] for the companies that you work for you
[05:32:11] know how how how
[05:32:13] fragile the Taiwan China situation is.
[05:32:16] We went over there and interviewed Baoi
[05:32:18] Kim and
[05:32:19] >> you know the VP and and so
[05:32:23] uh through my own paranoia and also just
[05:32:27] living in this [ __ ] world you know in
[05:32:29] my former life I I I was like we got to
[05:32:32] find a black phone like this [ __ ] is not
[05:32:34] cutting it. And um and uh oh, and I
[05:32:37] wound up on the Taliban [ __ ] hit list
[05:32:40] uh for uncovering the fact that we're
[05:32:44] giving them $87 million a [ __ ] week.
[05:32:46] They didn't like that. And uh so
[05:32:49] anyways,
[05:32:50] >> can't imagine why.
[05:32:51] >> So yeah, I started calling around to a
[05:32:53] lot of um former or not former friends
[05:32:57] of mine that you know that I worked with
[05:32:59] in the past uh at the agency and I was
[05:33:02] just looking for the black phone.
[05:33:04] >> Mhm. a real one, you know, not not a
[05:33:06] consumer grade like kind of one, a real
[05:33:10] one. And uh I got pointed to this this
[05:33:13] company called uh Glacier that was uh
[05:33:17] founded by uh
[05:33:20] some former NSA guys.
[05:33:22] >> Mhm.
[05:33:23] >> So, they made this phone and it's it's
[05:33:25] [ __ ] awesome. It's this right here.
[05:33:28] >> Oh, it's that thing. Cool.
[05:33:29] >> Yeah. But uh I mean it's an iPhone, but
[05:33:31] they've hardened it.
[05:33:32] >> Yeah. And um how I don't know, dude,
[05:33:36] that's like speaking Chinese to me. But
[05:33:38] but it keeps everything from getting
[05:33:40] sucked out. It's got end to end
[05:33:42] encryption messenger. Uh it tunnels your
[05:33:44] organization in. So you know the the the
[05:33:48] leak, the signal leak at the beginning
[05:33:50] of the administration, then they
[05:33:52] accidentally texted the wrong [ __ ]
[05:33:53] John or whatever. It wound up being a
[05:33:56] news reporter. That's impossible to do.
[05:33:58] You can only text people within your
[05:34:00] organization glacier to glacier. Even if
[05:34:02] your company has a Glacier
[05:34:05] um a Glacier phone and
[05:34:07] >> my company has all has Glacier like
[05:34:09] everybody here is on Glacier. We can't
[05:34:11] text each other through Glacier. It's
[05:34:12] it's it tunnels your organization in. Um
[05:34:17] what else? Endless amount of burner
[05:34:18] numbers. So, I mean, you know, for guys
[05:34:22] like us, that really would have come in
[05:34:23] handy. But even just for normal people,
[05:34:25] you know, you donate to an election
[05:34:27] campaign, you [ __ ] whatever, sign up
[05:34:30] for the wrong thing, your number gets
[05:34:31] leaked, then you get they can you you
[05:34:34] just use the burner number, you know,
[05:34:36] and then burn it. You know what I mean?
[05:34:39] So, nobody has your real number. And you
[05:34:42] know, the guy's kind of educated in me
[05:34:44] on how you can, you know, 100% disappear
[05:34:46] through digital numbers and not even
[05:34:49] really have a [ __ ] phone number at
[05:34:50] all. Um, and uh, so there's a there's a
[05:34:54] bunch of cool things about this phone.
[05:34:57] It's [ __ ] I mean, it's great for
[05:35:00] high netw worth individuals that are
[05:35:02] worried have to worry about kidnapping
[05:35:04] and [ __ ] because the phone pings a lot
[05:35:06] more often than the regular phone. and
[05:35:08] and um there's so many features to that.
[05:35:10] And so when I was looking for that um
[05:35:14] and we found we we we got in touch I I
[05:35:17] wanted to see if they wanted to
[05:35:18] advertise.
[05:35:19] >> Mhm.
[05:35:19] >> And um
[05:35:22] they did. They were like, "Fuck yeah."
[05:35:23] And I was like, "Well, maybe they want
[05:35:24] to do equity." And um they we we talked
[05:35:29] about equity. They they we were going to
[05:35:31] do it. And then as I got more um more
[05:35:35] knowledge of the actual product,
[05:35:38] it's $8,500 a phone and $12,000
[05:35:41] something for the service. I mean, it's
[05:35:43] [ __ ] expensive. And uh then, you
[05:35:45] know, I was like
[05:35:48] I just
[05:35:50] we're shooting for this much, you know,
[05:35:53] and uh nobody can afford that. we have
[05:35:56] to go after
[05:35:57] >> Palunteer, Andural, SpaceX, US
[05:36:01] government.
[05:36:02] >> I was like, and yeah, I mean, obviously
[05:36:05] I have reach into there because I've
[05:36:07] interviewed
[05:36:08] almost everybody, you know, but you
[05:36:11] know, that's a I don't that's not the
[05:36:13] thing. But, uh, for me,
[05:36:15] >> yeah,
[05:36:15] >> uh, that I want to, it's just not my,
[05:36:18] you know what I mean? And so I said I
[05:36:20] said if you had a more consumerfriendly
[05:36:24] product that wasn't that expensive I
[05:36:27] would be very interested. And uh they
[05:36:30] said well actually we have an app that
[05:36:32] uh we've been working on and we're close
[05:36:35] to being finished but we don't want that
[05:36:37] to compete with the phone.
[05:36:40] >> Mhm.
[05:36:40] >> And uh I said well that's what I'm
[05:36:43] interested in. I'm if if we're going to
[05:36:45] do business I want something that
[05:36:46] everybody can use. And um so for about
[05:36:50] the past
[05:36:54] it's been about a year now
[05:36:57] uh we've been developing this app and uh
[05:37:00] turning it into what we need it to be.
[05:37:02] And so it it's actually releasing uh
[05:37:07] we're doing the beta testing friends and
[05:37:09] family stuff in two weeks. March 1st uh
[05:37:12] we release it to friends and family.
[05:37:14] >> Congrats, man.
[05:37:15] >> Thank you. And uh so yeah, it'll be
[05:37:18] it'll be data blocker. You'll have the
[05:37:20] burner numbers and then uh all American
[05:37:23] VPNs, the VPNs. Uh I mean, I'm sure you
[05:37:27] know most Israel's bought a bunch of VPN
[05:37:29] companies. China's bought a bunch of VPN
[05:37:31] companies. It gets marketed like they're
[05:37:33] [ __ ] American VPNs. They're not.
[05:37:35] >> Yep.
[05:37:35] >> And uh so these will be all American
[05:37:39] VPNs. And then if it goes good, which I
[05:37:43] I know it's going to because there's
[05:37:45] nothing like this out there, um then we
[05:37:48] will add the secure messenger component
[05:37:50] to it cuz everything I'm seeing now is
[05:37:54] uh signal has been signal's been
[05:37:57] compromised. So So um this will be it,
[05:38:02] you know, and so I'm I'm really [ __ ]
[05:38:04] excited about it. Really excited. We put
[05:38:07] a lot into it and um so yeah, it'll be
[05:38:10] like I said March 1st it'll be coming
[05:38:12] out for friends and family and then once
[05:38:15] we work through the bugs then uh we'll
[05:38:18] kick it out to you know a little bit
[05:38:20] bigger group. We're going to we're going
[05:38:21] to do it in stair steps. We're not just
[05:38:23] going to kick it out to everybody right
[05:38:24] off the bat because I know it's going to
[05:38:26] take off. So we need
[05:38:27] >> we need to work we need to work through
[05:38:29] some things before it hits
[05:38:32] >> cool man. tens of thousands, hundreds of
[05:38:34] thousands, potentially millions of
[05:38:35] people.
[05:38:36] >> One of the challenges we had at Android
[05:38:38] was to figure out the mobile device
[05:38:41] security posture, you know, because
[05:38:44] what do you do? You issue everybody an
[05:38:46] iPhone.
[05:38:47] >> Okay. It's a lot of overhead, a lot of
[05:38:49] maintenance,
[05:38:50] >> a lot of fees.
[05:38:52] >> Um, yeah, it was it was challenging for
[05:38:54] sure. And we had a giant threat model to
[05:38:57] contend against, too.
[05:38:59] >> Yeah. No, I gave I gave Trey one when he
[05:39:01] was here. I don't know if he's using it
[05:39:03] or if he likes it or what, but uh but he
[05:39:06] got in touch as soon as as soon as I
[05:39:08] gave it to him. I know they went out and
[05:39:09] trained him up how to use it. So, he was
[05:39:11] definitely [ __ ] interested, but uh
[05:39:14] >> yeah, I'm excited, man. And then um I
[05:39:18] probably shouldn't even be talking about
[05:39:19] this, but uh cuz but uh there's a group
[05:39:22] of us that are getting together and uh I
[05:39:25] mean my just like you, you know, what's
[05:39:28] the next thing? I think I pretty much
[05:39:30] hit the podcast ceiling. There's not
[05:39:32] much more to develop here. So, I've I've
[05:39:35] uh I've definitely made my mark in the
[05:39:39] podcast world and um and um
[05:39:43] definitely made it to trend to up
[05:39:45] production quality and all of that kind
[05:39:48] of [ __ ] I've made my mark here and um
[05:39:51] it's it's it's now I'm interested in
[05:39:54] other things, you know what I mean? And
[05:39:56] so, uh through the podcast I've gotten
[05:40:00] my new passion is kids, man. and um
[05:40:05] helping
[05:40:07] sexually abused kids, whether they're
[05:40:10] trafficked or exploited or abused or or
[05:40:13] whatever, that I just I've covered that
[05:40:15] subject so many [ __ ] times and nobody
[05:40:18] else I shouldn't say nobody else, but
[05:40:22] a lot of the big guys, you know, in this
[05:40:24] game just don't [ __ ] talk about it.
[05:40:27] And um the problem's getting worse and
[05:40:30] worse and worse. And uh I've made some
[05:40:34] some of my best friends. Uh now today
[05:40:36] I've met on this show trying to save
[05:40:39] kids. And um so now we're we're
[05:40:44] we're going to develop an application
[05:40:46] that's going to educate uh and save
[05:40:48] kids, man, from sex exploitation, being
[05:40:52] trafficked, all that kind of [ __ ] And
[05:40:54] uh yeah, I mean it's just like what
[05:40:57] you're saying, man. you you hit a
[05:40:59] [ __ ] ceiling and and you've done the
[05:41:02] thing and you can sit there and [ __ ]
[05:41:04] try to be king the whole time or you can
[05:41:06] [ __ ] move on and get good at
[05:41:08] something else. And
[05:41:09] >> yeah,
[05:41:09] >> that's now you're empire building.
[05:41:11] >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean it, you know, when I
[05:41:14] built this, I mean I mean I didn't know
[05:41:16] what the [ __ ] I was doing, man. When I
[05:41:18] got out, I was teaching [ __ ] tactics,
[05:41:21] you know, and shooting and stuff like
[05:41:24] that, which is it's cool. But even that,
[05:41:28] I mean, I pretty much hit the ceiling on
[05:41:30] that right off the bat. I did train
[05:41:32] Kiana Reeves for John Look 3 and
[05:41:36] then that created a bunch of hate and
[05:41:38] what I was just like, this is whatever,
[05:41:40] man. Most of this [ __ ] is like
[05:41:42] 55year-old men trying to [ __ ] play
[05:41:44] army cuz they didn't never want go to
[05:41:45] war. I I just So, I started the podcast
[05:41:48] and I I think I've you know, I love
[05:41:51] doing this. I'll probably never stop. Uh
[05:41:54] I may slow down. Uh cuz the pace is
[05:41:58] it's tough to build other things when
[05:41:59] I'm at this pace, but um
[05:42:03] but like I said, it's just time to move
[05:42:05] on and master something new and build
[05:42:06] something else. And uh so that's that's
[05:42:09] what I'm doing.
[05:42:10] >> Yeah, that's great, man. Um, yeah. I'm
[05:42:12] sure I'm sure the Andrew Ceso Joe is
[05:42:15] going to be watching this and interested
[05:42:17] in what you guys got.
[05:42:19] >> Oh, [ __ ] Well, I hope so. But, uh,
[05:42:22] >> yeah, thanks for asking, man.
[05:42:24] >> Yeah, no worries. Yeah, Joe Joe's a good
[05:42:26] dude. He, uh, we came up together at
[05:42:29] Andreal back in the 100 person days of
[05:42:32] the company. Um, and when I left to
[05:42:35] start Wraith Watch, they were like, "Who
[05:42:38] do you want to be, you know, the
[05:42:41] replacement CISO?" Basically,
[05:42:44] I was like, "There's only one [ __ ]
[05:42:45] dude, Joe McAffrey. He's former Mars uh,
[05:42:48] communications officer, just a [ __ ]
[05:42:50] humble guy. The humblest guy I've ever
[05:42:52] met in just a [ __ ] great guy." So,
[05:42:54] yeah, sure. I want to check that out at
[05:42:56] some point.
[05:42:56] >> Oh, [ __ ] Well, thank you for the plug.
[05:42:59] >> Yeah. So, I appreciate that. I really
[05:43:02] do, man.
[05:43:03] But so what are you doing in cyber
[05:43:05] security now? You started your own
[05:43:07] company.
[05:43:08] >> Yeah. So Wraithatch is really a product
[05:43:12] of every [ __ ] thing we've been
[05:43:15] talking about for the past few hours.
[05:43:18] >> Where did you I mean where did you come
[05:43:19] up with it?
[05:43:22] Um, so
[05:43:25] the co-founders and I have talked about
[05:43:29] various components of this product
[05:43:31] forever and it was really a fusion of
[05:43:35] all of those conversations with them. So
[05:43:37] Grace would always talk about a I need a
[05:43:40] command and control layer like how
[05:43:41] Androl has lattice for physical [ __ ] and
[05:43:44] sensors and fusing the sensor data and
[05:43:46] telemetry together. We need something
[05:43:49] similar for cyber defense teams that can
[05:43:51] fuse data together and serve as a
[05:43:53] command and control layer for executing
[05:43:57] operations and making decisions at
[05:43:59] speed. Cuz right now that's the biggest
[05:44:01] thing cyber defense teams suck at. They
[05:44:03] just are unable to make decisions at
[05:44:05] speed. Not because they're not good, but
[05:44:07] because the tooling is lacking, right?
[05:44:09] Same problem you guys are solving with
[05:44:11] with the Glacier form. The tooling is
[05:44:12] lacking. It's not because people aren't
[05:44:14] trying to secure their communications.
[05:44:18] And
[05:44:19] um I had talked a whole bunch about the
[05:44:22] uh about the fact that you know if you
[05:44:24] zoom out from cyber security
[05:44:27] what it what the industry really is is
[05:44:29] it's this cat-and- mouse game of a
[05:44:32] stimulus response cycle between attacker
[05:44:35] and defender. What happens is the
[05:44:38] attacker will come up with a new way of
[05:44:40] doing [ __ ] They'll come up with some
[05:44:41] novel new attack. They'll come up with
[05:44:43] some novel exploit or whatever and then
[05:44:45] the defenders will have to react to
[05:44:46] that, right? They'll have to figure out,
[05:44:48] okay, how do we develop defenses against
[05:44:51] this exploit or how do we develop
[05:44:52] defenses against this new attack
[05:44:54] technique that we just read about that
[05:44:56] these guys out here came up with? But
[05:44:58] these guys out here don't share
[05:44:59] everything, right? Definitely, China is
[05:45:01] not sharing their latest and greatest
[05:45:02] attack techniques with, you know, the
[05:45:04] the cyber security community. So over
[05:45:06] here on the defensive side, you're
[05:45:08] basically left reading open- source
[05:45:11] information about what's going on on the
[05:45:13] attack side or you're left to read
[05:45:16] through the breach reports from
[05:45:19] organizations that already got hit. And
[05:45:21] then you basically have to
[05:45:24] make these mental leaps to figure out,
[05:45:26] okay, how might this apply to me and how
[05:45:28] can I defend myself uh and prevent from
[05:45:31] uh prevent my organization from getting
[05:45:33] hacked in the same way. So, this is a
[05:45:37] [ __ ] backwards way of operating,
[05:45:39] right? At the beginning of this podcast,
[05:45:42] we talked about artificial intelligence
[05:45:45] has the capability, and this has been
[05:45:47] empirically proven by the Frontier Labs.
[05:45:49] can point it at a system
[05:45:52] like an iPhone or a code repository for
[05:45:55] an application that's running on an
[05:45:57] iPhone and I can say
[05:46:00] don't stop until you have found me
[05:46:03] vulnerabilities in this application or
[05:46:06] codebase or device or whatever and you
[05:46:09] can just let them crank away at a pace
[05:46:12] that no human can match. DARPA came out
[05:46:16] with a competition a couple years ago
[05:46:18] called the Cyber Grand Challenge. And
[05:46:20] the goal of the competition was to
[05:46:22] understand, okay, can we instrument
[05:46:24] artificial intelligence systems that can
[05:46:26] reliably find vulnerabilities at scale
[05:46:28] autonomously without humans involved?
[05:46:31] And the answer is yes. The teams that
[05:46:33] came out on top from that competition
[05:46:36] have technology that can autonomously
[05:46:38] find, weaponize, and exploit
[05:46:40] vulnerabilities
[05:46:42] at industrial scale. Dude, so
[05:46:46] what you're seeing is this mounting
[05:46:49] attack pressure from the guys with the
[05:46:52] offensive tools
[05:46:55] augmented by artificial intelligence.
[05:46:58] You're not seeing any of that [ __ ] on
[05:47:00] the defensive side. It's not like
[05:47:01] there's some mounting defensive counter
[05:47:04] pressure that's being provided by
[05:47:06] somebody. And that's why we built Wraith
[05:47:09] Washington. Oh [ __ ]
[05:47:11] >> We provide the defensive counter
[05:47:14] pressure to offset the attack pressure
[05:47:18] that is mounting very rapidly um on the
[05:47:21] offensive side of the house. Cuz the
[05:47:24] only way you're going to get ahead of
[05:47:25] this is to have something continuously
[05:47:27] in here
[05:47:29] predict, imagine, simulate
[05:47:33] all of the novel new [ __ ] that these
[05:47:35] things are going to find, right? And do
[05:47:38] >> this is like a [ __ ] immune system.
[05:47:39] This is crazy.
[05:47:41] >> Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's that's
[05:47:42] essentially what it is. You're you're
[05:47:43] simulating
[05:47:44] >> these cells attack, these cells defend.
[05:47:47] It's [ __ ] wild.
[05:47:48] >> Yeah, that's right. Um,
[05:47:52] in 2026,
[05:47:55] if you're an organization like SpaceX or
[05:47:58] Andreal or any of these [ __ ]
[05:47:59] companies, right, and you have anything
[05:48:00] hanging its ass out on the internet,
[05:48:03] it's going to it's going to be subject
[05:48:04] to this mounting attack pressure from
[05:48:07] the outside. And you need something that
[05:48:11] is trying to preserve hull integrity,
[05:48:13] for lack of a better term, for the
[05:48:14] organization. And to preserve hull
[05:48:16] integrity, you need to, as you said,
[05:48:18] simulate all the possible ways shit's
[05:48:21] going to go sideways in here before
[05:48:23] these guys figure it out and then
[05:48:26] proactively get ahead of deploying the
[05:48:28] mitigations. So defensive counter
[05:48:30] pressure is is the name of the game
[05:48:32] here. And we do that by acting as a
[05:48:35] sensor fusion layer and command and
[05:48:36] control layer for all the tools that
[05:48:38] already exist in an organization. We
[05:48:39] stack AI on top of it and then they pull
[05:48:42] everything together and then apply that
[05:48:44] counter pressure that that I'm talking
[05:48:46] about. Unless that happens, and it
[05:48:48] doesn't have to be us, right? Someone
[05:48:50] else [ __ ] come come along and do this
[05:48:52] [ __ ] Like if it doesn't happen,
[05:48:56] basically we can no longer maintain
[05:48:58] trust that our society's most critical
[05:49:01] institutions actually have their [ __ ]
[05:49:04] together when it comes to protecting our
[05:49:06] data or to maintaining organizational
[05:49:08] integrity, right?
[05:49:11] >> Um because these things are just going
[05:49:13] to come at you in continuous swarms and
[05:49:17] they're not going to stop. This is the
[05:49:19] future that we're entering into.
[05:49:22] Anthropic released a uh a report the
[05:49:24] other day that said their their latest
[05:49:26] model, their latest AI model is capable
[05:49:28] of finding zeroday vulnerabilities very
[05:49:31] rapidly against code repositories it's
[05:49:34] never seen before or never been trained
[05:49:35] on in its in its existence. It throws
[05:49:38] something brand new at it, it'll find a
[05:49:41] zero day in there.
[05:49:43] >> Holy [ __ ]
[05:49:44] >> So imagine the firmware that's running
[05:49:45] on your guys' Glacier phones.
[05:49:48] you know, if you put that thing on a
[05:49:52] system and then you dispatch a swarm of
[05:49:54] these offensive AIs at it, they're going
[05:49:56] to find issues.
[05:49:58] The best case scenario is that we
[05:50:02] execute that process. By we, I mean, you
[05:50:04] know, someone on your guys' side
[05:50:05] executes that process of vulnerability,
[05:50:08] discovery, mitigation, and remediation
[05:50:12] before the bad guys ever get a chance to
[05:50:15] do it in the real world, in the wild. So
[05:50:18] that's we're not only trying to provide
[05:50:20] a capability to do that for
[05:50:22] organizations.
[05:50:24] We're also just trying to evangelize the
[05:50:27] fact that this is the future that we're
[05:50:29] moving into. And unless the industry get
[05:50:31] its [ __ ] together, gets it [ __ ]
[05:50:33] together, um we're going to have some
[05:50:35] serious problems at hand. So
[05:50:37] >> holy sh I mean, do do you see a world
[05:50:40] where we backtrack from digital? I mean,
[05:50:42] are we going to go back to [ __ ] pen
[05:50:44] and paper
[05:50:46] because the vulnerabilities are just I
[05:50:48] mean, they just it's like this shit's
[05:50:51] just getting better and better and
[05:50:52] better every [ __ ] day.
[05:50:54] >> Yeah.
[05:50:54] >> Every day.
[05:50:55] >> Yeah.
[05:50:56] >> You know, and it's it's
[05:50:58] >> I mean, thank God for companies like
[05:51:01] you.
[05:51:02] >> But where does it end?
[05:51:06] >> I genuinely don't know the answer to
[05:51:08] that question. I think
[05:51:11] I think the only thing that we can
[05:51:13] guarantee is there is now a continuously
[05:51:17] running arms race between attack and
[05:51:20] defense. It's an arms race that's going
[05:51:22] to be powered by AI hopefully on both
[05:51:23] sides. Right now it's it biases towards
[05:51:26] the attacker. Hopefully we can change
[05:51:28] that.
[05:51:31] And I think
[05:51:34] uh you know we're going to live in a
[05:51:37] future where these things are just
[05:51:39] constantly battling each other data
[05:51:41] center on data center and we're going to
[05:51:44] live right in the middle of it. So do we
[05:51:47] revert to pen and paper? Maybe I I've
[05:51:50] certainly reduced my you know
[05:51:53] consumption of things on the internet.
[05:51:56] um
[05:51:56] >> like what
[05:51:58] >> just you know doom scrolling Twitter all
[05:52:01] day or X um constantly reading on what
[05:52:05] reading up on what's happening in the
[05:52:06] news. I'm trying to reduce my cognitive
[05:52:08] load for what's out there as a practice
[05:52:12] run for reducing it permanently. You
[05:52:15] know,
[05:52:17] maybe I exit Wraith watch one day. You
[05:52:19] know, the company does really well and
[05:52:22] do I ever want to see a [ __ ] phone
[05:52:24] again? I don't think so.
[05:52:26] >> I don't think so. I fantasize about the
[05:52:28] day where I can
[05:52:28] >> Me too.
[05:52:29] >> walk to the walk to a pier,
[05:52:32] >> walk to Santa Monica Pier and just
[05:52:33] [ __ ] chuck this thing in the water.
[05:52:35] >> I can't [ __ ] wait for that day, too,
[05:52:37] man. I can't I I [ __ ] fantasize about
[05:52:40] that day. But until we get to that day,
[05:52:43] right, we have obligations as executives
[05:52:46] and business owners and um I mean, how
[05:52:50] do you keep track of your kids, right,
[05:52:52] in this day and age?
[05:52:54] I don't know. I What I do know is that
[05:52:56] the instant you put a screen in front of
[05:52:58] them, you're going to lose them. You're
[05:53:00] going to lose some
[05:53:02] portion of them to that screen.
[05:53:06] There's a writer by the name of uh
[05:53:07] >> a good way to put it. There's a there's
[05:53:09] a writer by the name of Paul Kings North
[05:53:11] and um he lives he lives in Ireland and
[05:53:14] he he runs this Substack um and he
[05:53:18] writes a lot about
[05:53:20] this environment that we find ourselves
[05:53:22] in and it's basically an environment
[05:53:24] where we've bootstrapped this all
[05:53:26] knowing allseeing machine right and it's
[05:53:28] not a singular machine it's a
[05:53:30] distributed machine of which we are all
[05:53:32] a part of right we can't escape the fact
[05:53:36] that we need our phones to do our jobs
[05:53:38] as executives and CEOs. We need the
[05:53:41] internet to get our message out there.
[05:53:43] We've developed this need to interface
[05:53:47] with all of this technology
[05:53:50] and
[05:53:51] I don't think there's any walking back
[05:53:53] from that.
[05:53:55] But there is something to be said about
[05:53:59] holding in your mind and being present
[05:54:03] in any given situation
[05:54:06] and saying,
[05:54:08] "Do I really need to be on this [ __ ]
[05:54:09] thing right now?
[05:54:11] And if I am,
[05:54:14] am I
[05:54:16] becoming a better person by the things
[05:54:18] that I do on it or am I not? Am I just
[05:54:21] doom scrolling and turning into a
[05:54:22] [ __ ] ball of anxiety? And if I do
[05:54:25] turn into a ball of anxiety, you know,
[05:54:27] that's gonna have an effect on the
[05:54:29] people around me. It's gonna have an
[05:54:30] effect on my loved ones. That's going to
[05:54:31] propagate out and have these second,
[05:54:33] third order effects.
[05:54:37] >> It's a [ __ ] weird future we're
[05:54:38] walking into, man. That's all That's all
[05:54:41] I can guarantee.
[05:54:45] >> I just
[05:54:48] I don't see how we don't go back to pen
[05:54:50] and paper. I mean, it it's just there's
[05:54:52] so many times where I'm talking about
[05:54:54] [ __ ] and I'm just like, I I don't want
[05:54:56] to talk about this over the phone. We we
[05:54:58] have to do it face to face.
[05:54:59] >> Yep.
[05:55:00] >> We just have to.
[05:55:01] >> Yep.
[05:55:01] >> You know, nothing nothing is secure.
[05:55:05] >> Nothing is secure. And you can't trust
[05:55:08] anything you see anymore. Like the ease
[05:55:11] with which any [ __ ] body can produce
[05:55:14] any image,
[05:55:17] text, anything, movie these days. I
[05:55:22] mean, you know, I was talking with
[05:55:24] Jeremy and and Darren about it earlier.
[05:55:28] If the first biblical flood was a
[05:55:30] physical one, the second one is going to
[05:55:32] be anformational one.
[05:55:35] We're going to be hit with a volume and
[05:55:37] velocity of information the likes of
[05:55:39] which we are not prepared for with our
[05:55:41] evolutionary programming.
[05:55:43] And I think we all have to reconcile
[05:55:47] what that means for us individually and
[05:55:49] what that means for our families and our
[05:55:50] communities and our society. That's why
[05:55:52] I bring up Kings North is because his
[05:55:54] contention is,
[05:55:56] okay, if this machine really is going to
[05:55:57] take off, right, and it it already is
[05:56:00] and has and will continue to, what's the
[05:56:04] goal? Well, maybe the goal is to
[05:56:08] it's to
[05:56:11] establish the success that we all want,
[05:56:13] right? with vigilance and with the
[05:56:14] podcast and all the all the projects
[05:56:16] you've got going on with Wraith watch
[05:56:18] for me. You know, other other folks have
[05:56:20] their versions of it. But once you do,
[05:56:24] let's figure out how to take that and
[05:56:27] translate it into making the little
[05:56:30] worlds around us better, our families,
[05:56:34] our communities,
[05:56:36] our states, our countries, what have
[05:56:38] you. And maybe if we start small and we
[05:56:41] do a good job, then maybe we'll earn our
[05:56:43] way into
[05:56:46] building our way back from this place
[05:56:50] that we're in. I I don't know.
[05:56:53] >> Never going to happen.
[05:56:56] >> Yeah, I agree.
[05:56:57] >> Simplicity.
[05:56:58] >> Yep.
[05:56:59] >> That's the way we're supposed to live.
[05:57:01] >> Yep.
[05:57:01] >> Simplistic.
[05:57:03] >> And
[05:57:04] we don't [ __ ] live that way. I know.
[05:57:06] Especially guys like me and you.
[05:57:08] >> I know
[05:57:08] >> we have high bars to set. We have we we
[05:57:12] we're on a mission, man. Yeah. And uh we
[05:57:15] like to accomplish [ __ ] And that does
[05:57:18] not create a simple life.
[05:57:20] >> I know. It really doesn't. But these are
[05:57:23] things I think about a lot.
[05:57:25] >> Me too. Me too.
[05:57:28] I think about Yeah. I think about them
[05:57:30] all the [ __ ] time. I mean, I can't
[05:57:31] remember who I was in here talking with,
[05:57:33] but you know, I mean, you're talking
[05:57:34] about a a wave of information. I mean, I
[05:57:36] I can't remember the number. I'm going
[05:57:38] to be off, but you know, I think it was
[05:57:40] like the human brain can maintain
[05:57:44] 150 relationships
[05:57:46] >> or something like I think it was less
[05:57:47] than that, you know, actually maintain,
[05:57:50] you know, 150 relationships or
[05:57:52] something. It's something like that.
[05:57:53] >> Yeah. Approximately the size of a rifle
[05:57:56] company,
[05:57:57] >> dude. And
[05:58:01] look at [ __ ] X and Twitter and you
[05:58:04] got, you know,
[05:58:07] thousands of people you're following.
[05:58:09] Everybody's [ __ ] hitting you up and
[05:58:11] you people you don't even know. You
[05:58:14] can't. You can't. You can't. You got
[05:58:16] >> text, Signal, Glacier, Instagram,
[05:58:21] Twitter, [ __ ] Facebook, all it's just
[05:58:25] email, personal email, company [ __ ]
[05:58:29] email. It's It's
[05:58:31] multiple company emails. You It's It's
[05:58:34] like you you just can't get the [ __ ]
[05:58:36] away from any of it. Yeah,
[05:58:38] >> it's everywhere.
[05:58:39] >> Yeah, I agree, man. And it's only going
[05:58:41] to get worse cuz you know now all the
[05:58:43] bot armies that used to post bot army
[05:58:45] [ __ ] like you know they resemble humans
[05:58:49] now and whoever's puppeteering them from
[05:58:52] the back end they can basically dispatch
[05:58:54] these
[05:58:56] armies that can swing things one way or
[05:59:00] the other depending on what the goals of
[05:59:01] of that person are. So
[05:59:05] I don't I don't have the answers, dude.
[05:59:07] I uh I I'm in a position where I can put
[05:59:12] some guys together and I feel like along
[05:59:16] with my with my founders, I put a crew
[05:59:18] of [ __ ] hitters together and we're
[05:59:20] out there building some cool [ __ ]
[05:59:25] Um
[05:59:25] >> your wife's a founder, right?
[05:59:27] >> Uh girlfriend. Yeah.
[05:59:28] >> Excuse me. Your girlfriend's a founder.
[05:59:30] >> Girlfriend. Yeah.
[05:59:30] >> How many founders are there?
[05:59:32] >> Uh two two other ones. Yeah. Two other
[05:59:34] ones. my girlfriend and um my third
[05:59:38] founder Carlos um Cuban dude escaped
[05:59:41] communism from Cuba came to the states
[05:59:45] didn't speak any English but he was so
[05:59:48] [ __ ] hung he had that immigrant
[05:59:49] hunger
[05:59:50] >> it's [ __ ] awesome
[05:59:51] >> landed at a bank in New York Morgan
[05:59:54] Stanley and he taught himself English by
[05:59:57] getting on the IT team over there he he
[06:00:00] was couch surfing on his brother's couch
[06:00:03] he taught himself IT and [ __ ] Got a job
[06:00:06] at at this bank and then he didn't speak
[06:00:09] a word of English. So people would call
[06:00:11] the IT help desk and he'd be like, "Hey,
[06:00:13] can you uh send an email?" That was like
[06:00:16] the most of
[06:00:18] >> English he spoke.
[06:00:19] >> You got to be kidding me.
[06:00:20] >> Then he would get the email from him and
[06:00:21] then he would translate the email into
[06:00:23] Spanish and they would figure it the
[06:00:24] [ __ ] out and then he would send like an
[06:00:26] English response back. Rinse and repeat,
[06:00:28] you know, over a thousand reps. And uh
[06:00:31] and that's how he taught himself
[06:00:32] English. And then he
[06:00:34] you know went from there. He uh he
[06:00:37] landed at Google after that and then uh
[06:00:39] SpaceX after that. When he left SpaceX
[06:00:41] he was one of the senior most security
[06:00:42] engineers there. At that point he had
[06:00:44] been responsible for building a lot of
[06:00:47] the security architecture around their
[06:00:49] most critical systems. Starship vehicle
[06:00:52] uh you know some of the other uh uh
[06:00:55] critical infrastructure they have in
[06:00:56] place. He's just a [ __ ] hitter dude.
[06:01:01] I don't know how we got on that.
[06:01:03] >> I mean, where do you think this is going
[06:01:04] to grow into? I mean, just just for
[06:01:06] example, I mean, we're talking about
[06:01:07] where's this going? I'm talking about
[06:01:09] are we going back to [ __ ] pen and
[06:01:11] paper? What we're probably going towards
[06:01:13] is Neuralink where we just [ __ ]
[06:01:15] thought share and we don't even need
[06:01:16] English. We don't even need language
[06:01:18] anymore.
[06:01:19] >> Yeah.
[06:01:19] >> I mean, how the [ __ ] do you like Alex
[06:01:23] Wang came in here, do you know who Alex
[06:01:25] Wang is? Alex Wang came in here and said
[06:01:27] he doesn't want to have kids until
[06:01:29] Neurolink is [ __ ] fully online for
[06:01:31] everybody because he wants his babies to
[06:01:33] have [ __ ] Neuralink in their head.
[06:01:35] >> I'm like, "Holy shit."
[06:01:37] >> All right.
[06:01:37] >> That's excessive. Um,
[06:01:39] >> but I mean, but what it but it's it's
[06:01:42] it's like [ __ ] man. There's a chip that
[06:01:44] can be hacked into your [ __ ] brain. Y
[06:01:46] >> I've talked to uh Ben Carson about it.
[06:01:49] You know,
[06:01:50] >> Huber Huberman, Andrew Huberman. I mean,
[06:01:54] you could inject an entire false reality
[06:01:56] into these into somebody's I mean,
[06:01:58] they're they're talking about this is
[06:02:00] going to help the blind see.
[06:02:02] >> Mhm.
[06:02:03] >> And it's like, well, [ __ ] if it's going
[06:02:04] to help the blind see, then it probably
[06:02:07] make you hear [ __ ] taste [ __ ] feel
[06:02:10] [ __ ]
[06:02:11] >> obviously see stuff. You could you could
[06:02:13] create an entire
[06:02:15] false reality
[06:02:18] into somebody's mind and they would
[06:02:20] never know it. We could be in a false
[06:02:21] reality, right? [ __ ] now we wouldn't
[06:02:23] even know it. How [ __ ] crazy is that?
[06:02:25] How do you defend against that [ __ ]
[06:02:27] >> Indeed. Indeed.
[06:02:31] I think
[06:02:38] I think it's very possible that that's
[06:02:41] already happened.
[06:02:43] It's probably already happened
[06:02:46] billions and trillions of times.
[06:02:49] Honestly, who the [ __ ] knows where in
[06:02:52] that chain of reality we might be in
[06:02:55] right now,
[06:02:57] >> you know, and people will have their
[06:02:58] religious convictions and say that
[06:02:59] doesn't square with uh with Christianity
[06:03:01] and uh Hinduism and you know, name your
[06:03:04] [ __ ] religion. I think it squares
[06:03:05] perfectly, dude. I think all of those
[06:03:07] religions are trying to tell us that
[06:03:10] the ultimate purpose of all of this [ __ ]
[06:03:15] is
[06:03:17] to
[06:03:19] evolve ourselves and our souls and our
[06:03:21] minds
[06:03:23] in order to navigate infinity
[06:03:26] essentially because that's what we're
[06:03:27] talking about here right in the limit if
[06:03:29] you give it long enough take neural link
[06:03:33] mash it up with LLMs mash it up with
[06:03:36] vual reality. Give give us senses and
[06:03:40] then now now we're in the matrix, right?
[06:03:44] Repeat that a million times.
[06:03:45] >> Mhm.
[06:03:46] >> Mhm.
[06:03:47] >> So it's it's this infinitely fractal
[06:03:50] like reality that we may be
[06:03:54] inhabiting. And if we're inhabiting an
[06:03:56] infinitely fractal reality, then one of
[06:03:59] the biggest
[06:04:01] one of the most useful skills that we
[06:04:03] can have is without being told,
[06:04:07] without biasing towards one side or the
[06:04:10] other based on some [ __ ] that people are
[06:04:11] telling us, with our own personal
[06:04:13] discernment and ability to navigate
[06:04:16] chaos and bring order to that chaos, how
[06:04:19] the [ __ ] do we get our bearings and how
[06:04:21] do we move out after having gotten them?
[06:04:24] I think that's what we're here to learn
[06:04:25] how to do.
[06:04:28] It's a damn good point.
[06:04:32] >> Maybe, maybe I'm full of [ __ ] I don't
[06:04:34] know.
[06:04:36] I don't think anybody really knows what
[06:04:37] it's, you know,
[06:04:40] just be a good [ __ ] person.
[06:04:41] >> Yep.
[06:04:42] >> That's really all you can do.
[06:04:43] >> That's it.
[06:04:45] >> But well, Nick,
[06:04:48] fascinating conversation.
[06:04:50] >> Amazing life story, man. amazing life
[06:04:54] story. Like, holy [ __ ] dude. You're
[06:04:56] [ __ ]
[06:04:58] life arc is just wild.
[06:05:01] >> Thanks, man. It's great meeting you in
[06:05:03] person. You're you're a super humble
[06:05:04] guy. Um, and uh it's great to be here.
[06:05:07] Thank you for the opportunity. It's a
[06:05:09] little bit surreal being in the studio.
[06:05:11] So,
[06:05:11] >> man, thank you for saying that. That
[06:05:13] means a lot. You know, I asked you
[06:05:14] earlier
[06:05:17] there's one thing you could say to your
[06:05:18] dad, what would it be? Now, I want to
[06:05:20] ask you, if there's one thing you want
[06:05:22] your son to know, what would it be?
[06:05:32] I wish I could have spent more time with
[06:05:34] you.
[06:05:37] And I I'll same message to my to my
[06:05:39] stepdaughter. I wish I could have spent
[06:05:41] more time with you guys. You guys
[06:05:43] deserved it. And
[06:05:47] I thought I was doing what the country
[06:05:51] needed me to do. And that was to deploy
[06:05:56] over and over and over again in the
[06:05:59] capacities in which I deployed.
[06:06:03] And if I could do it again,
[06:06:11] I don't know what I would change.
[06:06:17] But I would make spending time with you
[06:06:19] guys a priority and not a thing that I
[06:06:24] regret
[06:06:26] many years after the fact.
[06:06:30] One thing I'll say too is, you know, my
[06:06:34] two-month-old son, Maximus,
[06:06:39] is going to watch this too, 15 years
[06:06:42] from now.
[06:06:44] And
[06:06:45] he's going to wonder, you know,
[06:06:51] the [ __ ] was wrong with you? Like, why
[06:06:52] weren't you there for my brother and
[06:06:55] sister back in the day? And
[06:06:59] You know, I hope this interview can shed
[06:07:02] some light on
[06:07:05] what the [ __ ] I was out there trying to
[06:07:07] accomplish.
[06:07:11] Well, I definitely think this is going
[06:07:13] to help him understand it.
[06:07:15] Nice, man.
[06:07:17] >> You're welcome. Thank you. God bless.
[06:07:32] No matter where you're watching the
[06:07:34] Shawn Ryan Show from, if you get
[06:07:36] anything out of this at all, anything,
[06:07:39] please like, comment, and subscribe. And
[06:07:43] most importantly, share this everywhere
[06:07:47] you possibly can. And if you're feeling
[06:07:50] extra generous, head to Apple Podcast
[06:07:53] and Spotify and leave us a
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