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[00:00:03] [Music]
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[00:00:31] All right. Well, I keep marveling at
[00:00:32] producers Jim producer Jim's ability to
[00:00:35] find like the most u dramatic music with
[00:00:39] the countdown doomsday clock. It's very
[00:00:41] fitting actually. Hello and welcome to
[00:00:43] State of Play on Mint Press News, your
[00:00:46] bi-weekly geopolitical news stream where
[00:00:48] we will be talking about journalism in
[00:00:50] the face of unconscionable war crimes
[00:00:52] and we will be asking the fundamental
[00:00:54] question, is journalism as a formal
[00:00:57] institution dead? It seems like
[00:00:59] objective truth is completely
[00:01:01] subservient to elite corporate and
[00:01:03] political interests. And nowhere is this
[00:01:05] more exemplified than in the targeting
[00:01:07] of journalists in the Gaza Strip. I am
[00:01:09] your host Greg Stoker. We're going to be
[00:01:10] joined by a conflict journalist who went
[00:01:12] into Fallujah in Iraq in 20 2004, sorry,
[00:01:17] independently to film a documentary.
[00:01:19] She's also done a lot of other work and
[00:01:21] we're going to be talking about what
[00:01:23] happened to the Gazin journalist Anas
[00:01:26] al-Shariff and his Alazer colleagues
[00:01:28] yesterday. What does it mean going
[00:01:30] forward and yes, the world as a whole is
[00:01:32] a lot less safe. By the way, if you're
[00:01:35] watching the video, I know you guys are
[00:01:37] a lot of audio listeners because now we
[00:01:38] are on all podcast platforms, but um my
[00:01:43] actual fancy camera isn't working. So,
[00:01:45] you're just going to have to deal with
[00:01:45] the bad video quality. Apologies. I
[00:01:47] usually don't do my military bio, but
[00:01:50] since we might have some new folks
[00:01:52] around here, I'll restate it. I am a
[00:01:54] former US Army Ranger with a background
[00:01:56] in special operations and human
[00:01:58] intelligence collection. I conducted
[00:02:00] four combat deployments to Afghanistan,
[00:02:02] and now I'm an anti-imperialist activist
[00:02:04] and journalist. This is relevant because
[00:02:06] we're going to be discussing the air
[00:02:07] strike that killed these journalists
[00:02:09] yesterday, how it was affectuated, the
[00:02:11] technology used, and examine the
[00:02:13] military propaganda used to justify it.
[00:02:15] Essentially, I'm going to argue that
[00:02:16] there is no way it wasn't an intentional
[00:02:18] strike. I mean, everybody knows that,
[00:02:20] but we're going to break down why in
[00:02:22] case you have a problematic uncle that
[00:02:24] you need to have talking points for. So,
[00:02:26] the bottom line is some of you are going
[00:02:28] to have to, not you guys, but other
[00:02:31] people who don't watch this this show.
[00:02:33] Some of you are going to have to explain
[00:02:35] to your grandchildren how third grade
[00:02:37] military propaganda turned you into a
[00:02:40] genocidal lunatic cheering on the death
[00:02:42] of doctors, journalists, mothers, and
[00:02:44] innocent men and children. Good luck.
[00:02:46] Going to take some serious mental
[00:02:48] gymnastics. But at least the Democratic
[00:02:51] Party has a new moral champion willing
[00:02:53] to stand up for what's right. As some of
[00:02:56] you are still filling into the live
[00:02:57] episode, we're going to take a minute to
[00:02:59] reflect on human chat GPT
[00:03:03] Pete Buddhajed's recent appearance on
[00:03:06] Pod Save America. He is being floated as
[00:03:09] one of the Democratic hopefuls for a
[00:03:11] president run human suffering in Gaza.
[00:03:15] >> Do you think it's time to recognize a
[00:03:17] Palestinian state? I think that that's
[00:03:20] uh that's a a profound question that uh
[00:03:24] arouses a lot of the biggest problems
[00:03:26] that have happened with uh Israel's
[00:03:29] survival, Israel's right to survival um
[00:03:32] in the diplomatic scene and many of the
[00:03:34] people who have taken that step
[00:03:35] historically uh have done so for
[00:03:38] different reasons than what we see
[00:03:40] happening with European countries. Uh, I
[00:03:42] think we need to step back and we need
[00:03:44] to do whatever it takes to ensure that
[00:03:47] there is a real two-state solution and
[00:03:49] that no one uh, not even the likes of
[00:03:51] Netanyahu can veto the international
[00:03:53] community's commitment to a two-state
[00:03:56] solution where you have Palestinians and
[00:03:58] Israelis living with safety, with
[00:04:00] security, with rights. I believe that
[00:04:03] can happen, but we have to actually show
[00:04:05] some commitment to it.
[00:04:06] >> Okay. Well, that meant absolutely
[00:04:08] nothing. And it's the same kind of
[00:04:09] double speak that they've been doing. Of
[00:04:11] course, the framework of the two-state
[00:04:12] solution is basically just a political
[00:04:14] and narrative mechanism to keep kicking
[00:04:16] the can down the road so they never
[00:04:18] actually have to do anything about it.
[00:04:20] And like a lot of the neoliberal
[00:04:22] messaging coming out right now if we
[00:04:23] were going to put it into a nerd context
[00:04:25] is like save the Empire from Darth
[00:04:28] Vader, save the galaxy from the rebels.
[00:04:30] It's like you guys are so lost. But as
[00:04:33] society gets more and more militarized
[00:04:35] and the Constitution moves closer and
[00:04:36] closer to the paper shredder, we must
[00:04:38] remind ourselves as we watch President
[00:04:40] Trump deploy the Army National Guard to
[00:04:42] wage a war on the homeless in Washington
[00:04:44] DC here in America.
[00:04:47] Check this out. Um, and check out his
[00:04:49] announcement from this morning.
[00:04:51] >> A historic action to
[00:04:54] rescue our nation's capital from crime,
[00:04:57] bloodshed, bedum, and squalor. and
[00:05:00] worse.
[00:05:01] This is Liberation Day in DC and we're
[00:05:05] going to take our capital back. We're
[00:05:07] taking it back under the authorities
[00:05:10] vested.
[00:05:11] >> Violent crime has is at a 30-year
[00:05:13] all-time low in Washington DC. By the
[00:05:15] way,
[00:05:16] >> in me as the president of the United
[00:05:17] States, I'm officially invoking section
[00:05:20] 740 of the District of Columbia Home
[00:05:23] Rule Act. You know what that is? and
[00:05:26] placing the DC Metropolitan Police
[00:05:28] Department under direct federal control
[00:05:31] and you'll be meeting the people that
[00:05:32] will be directly involved with that. So,
[00:05:36] this episode's really about Gaza, but I
[00:05:38] wanted to take this one news item about
[00:05:40] him calling in the National Guard to
[00:05:42] wage a war on homeless homelessness in
[00:05:45] Washington DC. Uh, because it's all part
[00:05:47] of the same class. This is not a result
[00:05:50] of Trump's fascism. either this act or
[00:05:52] what's happening in the Gaza Strip right
[00:05:55] now. But it's also a result of the
[00:05:57] Democratic party's capitulation. The DC
[00:06:00] Council just passed a budget in order to
[00:06:03] protect themselves and their seats of
[00:06:04] power from the wrath of the Trump
[00:06:06] administration. What was in this budget?
[00:06:08] They cut the child tax credit, zeroed it
[00:06:11] out. They're kicking 27,000 people off
[00:06:13] of their healthcare. They have no
[00:06:15] vouchers, no vouchers for unhoused
[00:06:16] individuals. And while they are making a
[00:06:18] deal that is worth 2.2 2 billion with
[00:06:21] the Washington Commanders, the local NFL
[00:06:23] football team, in order to bring the
[00:06:25] stadium back. Now, Muriel Bowser, the
[00:06:28] Democratic mayor that is all over this
[00:06:31] uh Democratically led city, also
[00:06:33] stripped out protections for workers
[00:06:35] within this budget, and the DC council
[00:06:37] approved it. And also, she tried to
[00:06:39] strip out sanctuary city status through
[00:06:41] the budget, but it's not a budget item,
[00:06:42] by the way. So, I I said all that to say
[00:06:46] that when you hear people simply
[00:06:47] describing what is happening in DC, the
[00:06:49] takeover in DC as something that is
[00:06:51] purely at the feet of the Trump
[00:06:52] administration, please know that they
[00:06:54] are running cover for the Democratic
[00:06:56] City Council and party at large. They
[00:06:59] are running cover for Muriel Bowser, who
[00:07:01] is now who is not a deer in the
[00:07:02] headlights at this time, but an active
[00:07:04] participant in the fascism that is
[00:07:06] taking over the imperial capital. Same
[00:07:09] thing with the Gaza Strip. Now that
[00:07:10] Biden's no longer in power, the
[00:07:12] Democrats are like, "We we we can't do
[00:07:14] anything." Um, you know, that's we'll
[00:07:16] just put Pete Buddhajed on Pod Save
[00:07:19] America ran by former Obama speech
[00:07:22] writers and he'll say a bunch of word
[00:07:24] salad that means nothing. Okay? Because
[00:07:26] when it all comes down to it, they are
[00:07:28] in a big club, one big club, and you are
[00:07:31] not in it. They will agree on police.
[00:07:33] They'll agree on homelessness. They will
[00:07:34] agree on foreign wars and the desolation
[00:07:36] of Gaza. Which brings us to the
[00:07:38] assassination of Al Jazzer's last news
[00:07:41] crew last night in Gaza. Here are some
[00:07:44] initial reporting from the outlet
[00:07:45] itself.
[00:07:50] >> This is Alazer breaking news just coming
[00:07:52] out. Sad breaking news out of Gaza where
[00:07:55] Alazer journalist Anas al- Sharif has
[00:07:57] just been killed in what appears to be a
[00:07:59] targeted Israeli strike. All of this
[00:08:01] according to the director of the Alshifa
[00:08:03] hospital. Anas was killed after a tent
[00:08:06] for journalists was hit outside the main
[00:08:07] gate of the hospital. The well-known
[00:08:10] Alazer correspondent reported
[00:08:11] extensively from northern Gaza. The
[00:08:13] 28-year-old was a key source of news
[00:08:15] from Gaza city and the north for
[00:08:17] international audiences since Israel's
[00:08:19] war on the strip began some 22 months
[00:08:22] ago. Al Jazzer Media Network had
[00:08:24] recently denounced the Israeli military
[00:08:26] for what it called a campaign of
[00:08:28] incitement against SAS Al Sharif. Atarif
[00:08:30] was one of the journalists. The Israeli
[00:08:32] military accused of being a member of
[00:08:34] Hamas's military wing. The UN special
[00:08:37] reporter on the occupied Palestinian
[00:08:39] territories. Franchesca Galbanese has
[00:08:41] earlier denounced serious threats
[00:08:43] against the Alazer journalist by the
[00:08:45] Israeli army. And what's more is the
[00:08:47] council for the protection of
[00:08:48] journalists had also been concerned
[00:08:50] about his safety. Hani Mahmood is on the
[00:08:53] phone.
[00:08:54] >> Yeah. So basically when what they refer
[00:08:57] to as the campaign of incitement against
[00:09:00] him, I'm just going to pull up what I
[00:09:01] posted yesterday. So you may remember
[00:09:04] this uh military intelligence product
[00:09:08] put out by uh the IDF and I just said to
[00:09:11] be clear um Israel put Anas on a death
[00:09:15] list over a year ago with other
[00:09:16] journalists, but he was protected by the
[00:09:19] size of his platform. They tracked his
[00:09:21] cell phone, his every move. They could
[00:09:23] have killed him at any time. They only
[00:09:25] chose to now because they determined the
[00:09:27] information blowback from assassinating
[00:09:29] him would be less than if he were alive
[00:09:32] to record the upcoming invasion of Gaza
[00:09:36] city. That's it. That's why now um yeah
[00:09:41] there's nothing really beyond that. So
[00:09:43] let's get into it. So since then Israeli
[00:09:46] has been in overdrive trying to
[00:09:48] discredit him and claim he was Hamas as
[00:09:50] if anyone cares anymore. I mean, he did
[00:09:52] make a few posts on his private Telegram
[00:09:54] channel that seemed to be in support of
[00:09:56] armed resistance, but you know,
[00:09:58] whatever. Everyone's tired of this crap.
[00:10:01] U and wag the sloppiest propaganda smear
[00:10:04] campaign I've ever seen. Because they
[00:10:05] didn't expect so much blowback from
[00:10:07] this, they're scrambling and putting out
[00:10:08] the worst information operations product
[00:10:10] we have ever seen. You know, it's been a
[00:10:12] cornerstone of Israel's genocidal
[00:10:14] campaign to lie every single day about
[00:10:16] everything possible and to come up with
[00:10:18] the most lunatic excuses possible. You
[00:10:20] know, this is the military that lied
[00:10:22] about massacring the ambulance workers
[00:10:24] in Rafa. They lied about GHF massacres.
[00:10:26] They lied about the Shifa hospital, the
[00:10:28] Flower Massacre, beheaded babies, Hamad
[00:10:30] Hospital where terrorist shift rotations
[00:10:32] at the hospital turned out to be a
[00:10:34] calendar. Uh the World Central Kitchen
[00:10:36] workers, babies and ovens, white
[00:10:38] phosphorus on civilians, Sinoir
[00:10:40] surrounding himself with 20 hostages in
[00:10:42] a tunnel, killing women and children
[00:10:43] with white flags and their own hostages
[00:10:46] who had white flags who escaped their
[00:10:48] captives. Hindra job etc etc. We could
[00:10:51] all go on you know we could talk about
[00:10:52] the parable of the boy who cried wolf.
[00:10:55] There are two readings of that. One is
[00:10:57] don't lie because no one will believe
[00:10:58] you. Another one is to never tell the
[00:11:00] same lie twice so people still believe
[00:11:02] you. Either way there are no more lies
[00:11:05] left to tell. But western media keeps on
[00:11:07] towing the line of abject falsehood.
[00:11:10] What does this mean for journalism? To
[00:11:11] discuss this, we are joined by Tara
[00:11:15] Sutton, who um you know, who is an
[00:11:18] award-winning filmmaker and journalist
[00:11:19] who tells intimate stories about people
[00:11:21] living in extraordinary circumstances,
[00:11:23] focusing mostly on women and children.
[00:11:25] Over the last 20 years, she has covered
[00:11:27] the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the
[00:11:29] Syrian refugee crisis, famine, the
[00:11:31] aftermath of genocide. Uh she was only
[00:11:34] uh she was the only unmbedded western
[00:11:36] reporter to enter Fallujah, Iraq during
[00:11:38] the siege in 2004. and her Guardian
[00:11:41] Films Channel 4 documentary Fallujah
[00:11:43] Forensics, which exposed war crimes
[00:11:45] committed by the US military, won the
[00:11:47] Amnesty International Award for News.
[00:11:50] She's appeared as a commentator on
[00:11:51] Alazer, CBC, BBC, and speaks
[00:11:54] internationally on the plight of
[00:11:55] refugees in the Middle East. Uh she's
[00:11:57] also a founding board member of the
[00:11:59] collateral repair project with assists
[00:12:01] the most vulnerable refugees of war in
[00:12:04] Aman Jordan and is a board member of the
[00:12:06] Trudeau Center for Peace and Conflict
[00:12:08] Studies at the University of Toronto.
[00:12:10] Thanks so much for coming on.
[00:12:12] >> Thanks so much for having me.
[00:12:15] >> All right, let's get into this. Um
[00:12:17] >> fan of yours, so I'm really happy to be
[00:12:19] here.
[00:12:20] >> No, I really appreciate that and thanks
[00:12:21] for taking the time.
[00:12:22] >> Enraged by everything going on. like
[00:12:25] it's just it's just beyond belief and
[00:12:28] every time you think you've seen the
[00:12:30] worst it keeps getting worse. Um
[00:12:33] >> yeah and I think that's a that's a good
[00:12:35] place to start. So, we talked about this
[00:12:37] last night when we were setting up this
[00:12:38] episode. And I I suppose my first
[00:12:40] question is after covering Iraq,
[00:12:43] >> which was a brutal urban warfare
[00:12:47] landscape. Uh, you know, in the early
[00:12:49] days of the war when it was like the
[00:12:51] hottest. Um,
[00:12:53] is any of this actually surprising to
[00:12:55] you? I think you kind of already
[00:12:56] answered this. or is this sort of like
[00:12:57] an escalation in violence in like the
[00:13:00] colonial colonialization or the
[00:13:02] coloniality of like the western
[00:13:04] newsroom? Uh, from my military
[00:13:06] experience, it's definitely more violent
[00:13:07] than anything we did.
[00:13:09] >> Um, but are you surprised by the media
[00:13:12] coverage of this?
[00:13:14] >> Um, there's a lot to unpack here. First
[00:13:16] of all, I would just say that definitely
[00:13:20] newsrooms are colonial. I mean, if you
[00:13:22] think about where foreign
[00:13:23] correspondents, like where it came from,
[00:13:25] it was kind of like a man in Cairo, you
[00:13:27] know what I mean? Where some guy was
[00:13:28] just like sending out a tlex about what
[00:13:31] was happening and then that field just
[00:13:33] grew and grew and grew in a way that is
[00:13:35] really no longer necessary as we've seen
[00:13:37] in Gaza. There's plenty of people who
[00:13:40] live there who speak the language who
[00:13:41] can do that job very well. Um, and I
[00:13:44] think that one of the reasons
[00:13:48] why,
[00:13:49] um, you know, the prop Palestine
[00:13:52] movement grew so quickly was the fact
[00:13:54] that Palestinian journalists were
[00:13:56] showing you what the aftermath of a bomb
[00:13:59] falling really looks like. Um, and I
[00:14:02] think that the colonial or Western news
[00:14:04] media has always really sanitized that,
[00:14:06] right? So, people would never get to see
[00:14:08] it. And I think that one of the other
[00:14:11] amazing things about it was that we
[00:14:13] didn't have like journalists like the
[00:14:15] big names coming in and bigfooting
[00:14:16] everybody out and sort of you know
[00:14:19] presenting these stories that are again
[00:14:21] it's like one distance of of remove
[00:14:24] right when you see people who are just
[00:14:26] right there it brings you right there
[00:14:29] and so I feel like in a way um the
[00:14:32] general public has or at least people
[00:14:34] who are paying attention and are
[00:14:35] following gazins are able to kind of see
[00:14:37] what I saw saw as a reporter, right?
[00:14:39] Which is the incredible kindness of
[00:14:41] people and the utter horror that is
[00:14:43] really hard to get across um when you
[00:14:47] have this sort of filtering mechanism
[00:14:50] which is mainstream media. Um and then I
[00:14:53] also I mean nothing would have prepared
[00:14:56] me for the amount of journalists that
[00:14:58] have been targeted. It's just I I can't
[00:15:01] wrap my head around it. It's just too
[00:15:02] big to kind of be able to properly
[00:15:06] uh focus on obviously with Hosam Shabbat
[00:15:08] and Anas Al Sharif. I have been watching
[00:15:11] those guys for 22 months and so it's
[00:15:14] really feels very personal to see people
[00:15:16] that you become. So you feel
[00:15:19] so uh attached to be murdered. Um and
[00:15:23] the other thing I think is important to
[00:15:25] point out is they weren't murdered in
[00:15:27] the field, right? Like obviously being a
[00:15:30] conflict reporter is a dangerous job. We
[00:15:32] all know that, right? Like you can be in
[00:15:33] the wrong place at the wrong time. And
[00:15:34] in Iraq, in the beginning, that was like
[00:15:36] your fear of death is like, "Oh, I'm
[00:15:38] going to be somewhere in a roadside
[00:15:39] bomb's going to go off or I'm going to
[00:15:40] get caught in the crossfire." It's not
[00:15:42] I'm going to be sitting in the tent that
[00:15:45] is set up for me to do my job and that's
[00:15:47] going to be bombed. You know, it's sort
[00:15:49] of like the the hospital bombing,
[00:15:52] like you used to think hospitals were a
[00:15:54] safe place. And every conflict, there's
[00:15:56] always media tents. There's places where
[00:15:58] everybody can file from and plug in
[00:16:00] their laptops and get internet. And I'm
[00:16:02] sure in Gaza it was a lot worse than
[00:16:04] anything I've ever worked out of just
[00:16:05] because of the situation. But it's still
[00:16:07] a known supposedly safe area in a
[00:16:11] conflict zone and that's just been
[00:16:13] destroyed.
[00:16:14] >> Yeah. I mean, a lot of things that were
[00:16:16] huge scandals during the unfortunately
[00:16:18] named and ill- fated global war on
[00:16:20] terror that were atrocious. Uh Obama's
[00:16:23] signing off on bombing the wedding
[00:16:25] convoy in Yemen. uh killed a bunch of
[00:16:27] civilians. None of the quoteunquote
[00:16:29] al-Qaeda guys that were there, they all
[00:16:30] apparently got away. Uh the Kundus
[00:16:32] hospital bombing in Afghanistan in 2015,
[00:16:35] that was uh Medson Sonontia, uh Doctors
[00:16:38] Without Borders, that was a huge scandal
[00:16:40] and involved a cover up. And then from
[00:16:42] Iraq, um
[00:16:45] the Wikileaks Apache helicopter tape
[00:16:49] where um
[00:16:50] >> a number of Alazer journalists uh who
[00:16:53] had like an extended camera. So the the
[00:16:55] pilot was asking for the green light to
[00:16:57] engage because he said it was an RPG. It
[00:16:59] clearly wasn't an RPG.
[00:17:01] >> Um so that was a huge scandal. Uh and
[00:17:04] >> there were scandals where it's like none
[00:17:06] of this stuff is a scandal, right? I
[00:17:08] mean the America seems better able to
[00:17:11] the American media seems better able to
[00:17:13] report on its own country's scandals and
[00:17:15] hold them to account than anything that
[00:17:17] they're doing with Israel,
[00:17:21] >> which is, you know, very curious. Now I
[00:17:24] I definitely want to talk about uh
[00:17:27] something we we discussed last night and
[00:17:28] that was like this war on Alazer in
[00:17:31] general. Um because when I was in uh you
[00:17:36] know early 2010s I I was just told even
[00:17:40] though like you know I was plugged into
[00:17:41] intelligence circles I had a top secret
[00:17:43] security clearance
[00:17:44] >> like military people even if they think
[00:17:47] they're smart and they have access to
[00:17:48] like all this information they exist in
[00:17:50] an echo chamber and nobody really reads
[00:17:52] the local news uh because you know
[00:17:54] you're told it's propaganda and Alazer
[00:17:56] was like the pinnacle of that and I
[00:17:58] think like one of my things that uh kind
[00:18:01] of really prejudices
[00:18:02] against me is like they did file a
[00:18:04] couple of like reports about what like
[00:18:06] special operations forces were doing in
[00:18:08] Afghanistan and I knew it was incorrect
[00:18:10] but that like prejudiced me for years
[00:18:13] and they're the only ones and they're
[00:18:14] supposed to be like out of Qatar which
[00:18:15] is a comprador state with like the US
[00:18:18] government and empire but they're
[00:18:20] actually doing reporting um so I don't
[00:18:23] know like what was your experience with
[00:18:25] like Alazer and how people
[00:18:26] >> I mean first of all when I was in Iraq
[00:18:29] Alazer didn't exist it hadn't They
[00:18:31] hadn't done their English channel yet.
[00:18:33] It only was uh broadcasting in Arabic.
[00:18:36] And it was something that was always on
[00:18:38] in the background. And it would always
[00:18:39] shock me because, you know, in our house
[00:18:41] that I lived in, we would have like
[00:18:43] Alazer on one channel and then we would
[00:18:46] have, you know, American news on another
[00:18:48] channel and the Alazer was always
[00:18:50] showing exactly the type of things that
[00:18:52] people are seeing now, which is like
[00:18:54] shredded bodies and people being pulled
[00:18:56] out of burning buildings, right? So, I
[00:18:58] think that
[00:19:01] >> I don't I mean your story, I'm sure I'd
[00:19:04] like to hear about that when you said
[00:19:05] they were incorrect, but I think that
[00:19:07] when they're just showing the aftermath
[00:19:09] of people's violence, I don't think
[00:19:12] that's propaganda. I think it's just
[00:19:13] that they don't want people to see that.
[00:19:15] I mean, uh, in so yeah, first Alazer was
[00:19:19] bombed in Cabo in 2001 by the Americans.
[00:19:23] Alazer was bombed in 2003. their their
[00:19:26] um anchor Tar Aub who is also
[00:19:29] Palestinian was blown up when he was on
[00:19:31] the roof getting ready to go live. Um
[00:19:35] when I was in Fallujah in 2003, the only
[00:19:38] broadcaster in there was Alazer and when
[00:19:42] the there was a ceasefire after about
[00:19:45] two weeks of fighting and the one of the
[00:19:48] conditions of the ceasefire was that
[00:19:51] their uh the Alazer reporter leave
[00:19:55] because nobody else was inside and so
[00:19:58] everybody was picking up the Alazer
[00:20:00] feed. So that footage was being shown on
[00:20:03] um you know all over the world and at
[00:20:07] one point during a press conference I
[00:20:10] remember somebody asked Brigadier
[00:20:11] General Mark Kimtt about you know the
[00:20:14] fact that Alazer was showing all these
[00:20:16] civilian casualties and his response was
[00:20:20] change the channel
[00:20:22] change the channel to a legitimate
[00:20:24] authoritative news channel. In other
[00:20:27] words one of ours. And I think that if
[00:20:29] you think about that, that just shows
[00:20:31] you how much they are aware
[00:20:34] um
[00:20:36] that their media is somewhat controlled.
[00:20:39] You know, our change the channel to our
[00:20:41] media. Don't believe this. It's like,
[00:20:43] you know, people keep saying don't
[00:20:44] believe your eyes. Don't believe your
[00:20:45] ears. Don't believe the people who are
[00:20:47] from the region who speak the language.
[00:20:50] Don't believe what they're seeing. You
[00:20:51] know, the idea that somehow they're
[00:20:53] making all of this stuff up is just so
[00:20:56] insane and it's really pervasive. I
[00:20:58] mean, I made a film in Fallujah. I was
[00:21:01] telling you a bit about this last night.
[00:21:03] Uh this was before the battle. I was in
[00:21:05] there trying to figure out like why are
[00:21:06] all the insurgents coming from this
[00:21:08] area? And it was like, oh, guess what?
[00:21:10] You know, um the Marines opened up on a
[00:21:12] protest and killed 17 people. You know,
[00:21:15] there was it's not just like, oh, why
[00:21:17] does, you know, everybody hates us.
[00:21:18] There's a reason. Um, and we found a guy
[00:21:21] who told us that he had been detained
[00:21:23] for 29 days and he talked about being
[00:21:25] beaten and he talked about being kept in
[00:21:27] something called the mouse house, which
[00:21:29] was like a small cage. And he showed us
[00:21:32] his, you know, his uh tags and his
[00:21:35] paperwork that showed he had been
[00:21:37] detained. And when I I was doing I've
[00:21:40] always been freelance, but this was the
[00:21:42] BBC picked this up. And after like when
[00:21:44] I was showing the editors my report,
[00:21:48] they were like, "Oh, well, you don't
[00:21:50] possibly believe him, do you?" Right
[00:21:52] about this Iraqi guy. But when and I had
[00:21:55] to fight to be like, "Yeah, I believe
[00:21:57] him." Like, why is he saying words in
[00:21:59] English that he can't say in any other
[00:22:01] language? Why does he have the tags? And
[00:22:03] also like, why can't you believe that
[00:22:06] American soldiers could be violent?
[00:22:08] Meanwhile, I, you know, we also spent
[00:22:10] time with the US military and we have a
[00:22:11] guy, for example, saying, you know, he
[00:22:13] went in and six of his guys had been
[00:22:15] wounded and one had been killed. They
[00:22:17] didn't say like, "Check that out." You
[00:22:19] know what I mean? So, there's this sort
[00:22:20] of like colonial mentality that like the
[00:22:24] natives can't possibly be telling the
[00:22:26] truth and we have to hold them to like
[00:22:28] extra special account.
[00:22:30] >> I mean, I actually think that's entirely
[00:22:34] true. Um, just to kind of bring this
[00:22:36] home too, like every journalist that's
[00:22:39] been killed in Gaza has had to be the
[00:22:42] perfect victim.
[00:22:44] >> Mhm. Yeah.
[00:22:45] >> You know, because like the Israeli
[00:22:47] society is obsessed with, you know,
[00:22:49] things like rape and physical
[00:22:51] domination, and that's like Darvo stuff,
[00:22:53] like what what did you do to like
[00:22:55] deserve getting drone stroke or like
[00:22:58] having a 2,000 pound bomb uh dropped on
[00:23:01] you? So, uh, when it comes to Anas, if
[00:23:04] we can just pull up this like Nazi
[00:23:06] platform. Um, basically
[00:23:10] it's all full of this guy, you know,
[00:23:12] former hostage fires back at Sky News.
[00:23:15] Press the press vest isn't a get out of
[00:23:17] jail free pass for terrorists. They're
[00:23:19] bringing up uh some tweets that he made
[00:23:22] uh you know on on Telegram or on his
[00:23:24] Telegram channel, you know, in support
[00:23:27] of, you know, Palestinian armed
[00:23:28] resistance, which I don't think
[00:23:30] international law is a thing. It's
[00:23:32] clearly not. So, we're not going to like
[00:23:34] harp on how it's supposed to be
[00:23:35] enshrined there.
[00:23:37] >> Um but basically, you know, if you're
[00:23:40] not the perfect peaceloving
[00:23:42] Palestinian,
[00:23:44] >> you deserve essentially to die. And the
[00:23:46] thing about the perfect victim,
[00:23:47] >> if you are the perfect peaceloving Pal
[00:23:49] Palestinian, you're going to die anyway,
[00:23:51] right?
[00:23:51] >> Because the perfect victim is like a
[00:23:53] movable goalpost. And they don't even uh
[00:23:56] attempt to like abide by it because you
[00:23:59] know, you have ministers who are in
[00:24:01] charge of military and foreign policy
[00:24:04] saying there are no innocents in Gaza.
[00:24:07] So it's just like what is this
[00:24:09] propaganda push? Exactly. And and I
[00:24:12] think like as a journalist who's you
[00:24:14] know I mean you know worked as an
[00:24:17] independent with like some major
[00:24:18] outlets. I know you published a uh an
[00:24:22] article in the Guardian uh after we got
[00:24:24] arrested in the Senate uh about like
[00:24:26] vets you know being disenchanted with
[00:24:29] Israel and wanting to pressure the
[00:24:31] government to stop arming them. Um, I I
[00:24:33] was just like wondering what
[00:24:36] like like how like institutionally
[00:24:39] like like all these journalists could be
[00:24:41] like, "Okay, we're just going to tow the
[00:24:43] line with the New York Times editorial
[00:24:45] board." Um, like
[00:24:47] >> yeah,
[00:24:48] >> that's a tricky one for me because I
[00:24:50] have an authority problem. So, I've
[00:24:52] always been independent. So, I haven't
[00:24:55] worked within a journalistic in
[00:24:57] institution, right? So I'm not like
[00:24:58] sitting and I I actually don't think
[00:25:00] most of the journalists that are
[00:25:02] actually going out and doing reporting
[00:25:03] are the ones who were sitting in
[00:25:05] meetings that may be happening about
[00:25:06] what they can say and what they can't
[00:25:08] say.
[00:25:09] >> Um but I have been like so disappointed
[00:25:13] and shocked with so many of my
[00:25:15] colleagues that I you know they're not
[00:25:17] my friends but just people that I know
[00:25:20] um who haven't said anything about this.
[00:25:22] In fact, it's I'm like at this point I'm
[00:25:25] more aware of people who have been
[00:25:27] speaking out. Do you know what I mean?
[00:25:29] Than the ones who haven't.
[00:25:30] >> Because it's so rare.
[00:25:31] >> What? Yeah. Because it's so rare. Um I
[00:25:35] think that
[00:25:37] it's it's tricky. I go back and forth,
[00:25:39] right? Because so many news channels are
[00:25:41] problematic and then it's also like they
[00:25:44] have these huge platforms. So it's like
[00:25:47] where you know there was a journalist
[00:25:49] I've always really admired Awa Damon who
[00:25:51] worked for CNN who left now and she has
[00:25:54] her own uh not for-profit Inara where
[00:25:56] she helps uh children who have been
[00:25:58] badly burned in conflict and she was
[00:26:00] always their conflict reporter who would
[00:26:02] go in and tell the civilian side of the
[00:26:04] story. Right. Mhm.
[00:26:06] >> Well, she was like the counterbalance to
[00:26:09] all the other manufacturing cons consent
[00:26:11] that went on. And so it's like, well,
[00:26:13] should she not work for them because of
[00:26:14] all the other crap that they put out or
[00:26:16] is it important to at least have some of
[00:26:20] the voice of, you know, the people who
[00:26:23] are being injured uh coming across? But
[00:26:26] I I don't
[00:26:28] I mean I've had there's been like
[00:26:30] pressure like as I said oh I remember an
[00:26:33] argument I had with channel 4 about that
[00:26:35] same Fallujah film where we were using
[00:26:37] Alazer footage where an entire family
[00:26:39] had been killed and I had put in like
[00:26:42] five cuts of dead children and my edi
[00:26:47] the editor who was in charge of the of
[00:26:49] the news section said oh you can't put
[00:26:52] all that in people don't want to see
[00:26:53] that while they're having dinner and I
[00:26:55] was just like what?
[00:26:58] >> Sorry to inconvenience you about dead
[00:27:00] families,
[00:27:01] >> right? Like, and so we had this back and
[00:27:03] forth and it ended up she wanted one and
[00:27:05] we ended up with three. And I'm like,
[00:27:06] how am I having this type of an
[00:27:09] argument?
[00:27:10] Um, and you're publishing like a
[00:27:13] hard-hitting piece that accuses the US
[00:27:15] military of war crimes, but somehow
[00:27:18] something inside of you is is stopping
[00:27:20] this. And I do think people have this
[00:27:22] internalized propaganda who have grown
[00:27:25] up in the west as well. So I think that
[00:27:27] a lot of there's a lot of like
[00:27:29] selfcensorship from people's upbringing
[00:27:32] which I saw a lot in American
[00:27:34] journalists in Iraq.
[00:27:35] >> Yeah. And you know it's kind of like you
[00:27:37] know we want to make these hard-hitting
[00:27:38] pieces that are going to get a lot of
[00:27:39] engagement and save the paper but we
[00:27:42] kind of want it to also remain like in
[00:27:43] the ether not rooted into anything like
[00:27:46] that could affect people on an emotional
[00:27:48] level like images of dead children.
[00:27:50] Yeah.
[00:27:51] >> And that's kind of what we're seeing
[00:27:52] coming out of Gaza uh every day. You
[00:27:56] know, you know, some of the worst
[00:27:58] massacres in Iraq
[00:28:00] >> or the worst bombing uh mishaps or
[00:28:03] intentional haps in Afghanistan
[00:28:06] that like made international news like
[00:28:09] >> like once every few years are now
[00:28:12] happening like every day. Every day. Um
[00:28:14] and
[00:28:15] >> and people are seeing it. Again, I think
[00:28:17] that that is like I can't overstate how
[00:28:19] important I think that is and why again
[00:28:21] we all owe such an enormous debt of
[00:28:24] gratitude to all the Palestinian
[00:28:26] journalists and just regular people who
[00:28:28] are showing us what is happening in
[00:28:30] their lives because I don't think that
[00:28:32] without them there there would not be
[00:28:34] any of the sort of push back that there
[00:28:36] is. People would just be like it's like
[00:28:38] quietly going on in the background huge
[00:28:41] numbers of people dying you know.
[00:28:43] >> Yeah. Before we get into like how do you
[00:28:46] how do we think that this will that this
[00:28:48] quote unquote conflict live stream
[00:28:50] genocide. Sorry guys. Um
[00:28:53] I'm just using the neoliberal verbiage,
[00:28:56] you know.
[00:28:56] >> No, I think we I I pretty sure we all
[00:28:58] know where you stand on that.
[00:29:00] >> Yeah. So um before we talk about like
[00:29:02] what this has done to j journalism on an
[00:29:04] institutional level maybe um I I just
[00:29:07] kind of wanted to uh break down for the
[00:29:09] audience real quick about you know
[00:29:12] despite all the propaganda because my
[00:29:14] whole thing the reason I started doing
[00:29:15] this was specifically to debunk military
[00:29:19] propaganda. So, I am going to talk about
[00:29:22] the specifics of this kinetic strike uh
[00:29:25] that happened and we're going to do it
[00:29:27] by pulling up a not there's a lot more
[00:29:30] graphic videos. This is going on YouTube
[00:29:33] and plus we don't need to be seeing that
[00:29:36] um again. But here here's the thing,
[00:29:39] okay, before we get into this. Um, my
[00:29:42] expertise in this, uh, before I became
[00:29:45] very much anti-war,
[00:29:46] anti-interventionist, I transitioned
[00:29:49] from like an assault role in my like
[00:29:52] special operations unit into more like
[00:29:54] an intelligence role, which is me meant
[00:29:55] like I was in the tactical operations
[00:29:57] center during the day, then I'd go out
[00:30:00] at night with the strike force to be
[00:30:01] like the intel guy essentially. But a
[00:30:03] lot of the times, and I didn't work
[00:30:05] directly on drone strikes. They were
[00:30:08] like in another cubicle section in the
[00:30:10] talk, the tactical operations center.
[00:30:12] But of course, I'd be paying attention
[00:30:14] to like what they were doing and how
[00:30:16] they were doing things because if they
[00:30:18] weren't able to get like a high value
[00:30:19] target and eliminate it, that means
[00:30:22] you'd have to spend send in like a
[00:30:24] ranger platoon or a SEAL team. So that
[00:30:26] means like if they weren't able to do it
[00:30:28] that that means I'd have to go out that
[00:30:29] night and
[00:30:30] >> okay
[00:30:31] >> interrogate the guy
[00:30:33] >> and try to determine who he was
[00:30:35] >> so we could you know bring him back for
[00:30:37] questioning and stuff. So I was always
[00:30:39] like really paying attention to like
[00:30:41] what the kinetic strike targeting cycle
[00:30:43] was. So, um,
[00:30:46] basically
[00:30:48] what they do and how they do it, it
[00:30:52] hasn't really changed because military
[00:30:54] equipment like hellfire missiles,
[00:30:56] drones, they take like decades to
[00:30:59] develop. Like some of our most advanced
[00:31:00] weapons and weapon systems were
[00:31:02] developed in the 80s, but because it
[00:31:04] takes so much time, it's the same
[00:31:05] equipment that they're using now that we
[00:31:08] were using uh back in like 2013. Okay.
[00:31:11] Uh so nothing's really changed. The only
[00:31:14] thing that has really changed
[00:31:16] >> is the implementation of artificial
[00:31:18] intelligence into the intelligence
[00:31:19] synchronization cycle. So you have fewer
[00:31:22] people that have to monitor pe uh
[00:31:24] things. So one of the main re ways to
[00:31:26] track people is through their cell phone
[00:31:28] signals. Okay. All journalists have cell
[00:31:31] phones and they know they're being
[00:31:33] tracked. And I've made a lot of videos
[00:31:35] about how this happens. Uh, usually like
[00:31:38] 10 years ago when I was in, you'd have
[00:31:41] to have a person on it. Um, you know,
[00:31:43] constantly monitoring a bunch of these
[00:31:44] like signals and like it's overlaid on
[00:31:46] like a really special version of like
[00:31:48] Google Earth. Uh, so you can see where
[00:31:50] all these handsets are and like if
[00:31:52] they're converging together. Now, you
[00:31:54] don't need as many people to actually
[00:31:57] um evaluate that. You know, you can just
[00:31:59] have an AI program. But basically, what
[00:32:01] they're doing is they're looking at all
[00:32:02] these journalists that they killed uh
[00:32:04] with their cell phones. And I'm not 100%
[00:32:07] sure on this, but this is how it how it
[00:32:09] works. Same equipment, same targeting
[00:32:11] process. Um, someone was looking at all
[00:32:14] their cell phones and they're seeing
[00:32:16] that they're all coll-located
[00:32:19] in the tent. All right. And then once
[00:32:22] they were all coll-located, the entire
[00:32:24] team, somebody in the talk, tactical
[00:32:26] operations center in the targeting cell
[00:32:28] was like, "Okay, green light, drop it."
[00:32:32] Uh, so that's most likely what happened.
[00:32:34] Again, this is supposition based on my
[00:32:36] experience, but this is kind of how it
[00:32:38] works. So, it was a conscious decision
[00:32:40] >> to wait till they were all together, one
[00:32:42] fell swoop. And here is the main thing.
[00:32:45] >> All right. So, after all these years,
[00:32:49] uh, I'm sorry, like almost two years of
[00:32:51] watching this, we've seen incredible
[00:32:53] battle damage, you know, and most of
[00:32:56] Gaza is completely devastated, right?
[00:32:59] Look at this. There's no crater. There's
[00:33:01] no destroyed buildings. It's just the
[00:33:04] tent which was uh blown apart by the
[00:33:08] blast. This was not a bomb. This was
[00:33:12] most likely something like a hellfire
[00:33:14] missile shot from a drone. Um hellfire
[00:33:17] missiles are precision munitions. Um
[00:33:19] they can be shot in a certain way to
[00:33:21] like only take one guy out in a group of
[00:33:23] people or the entire group. There's not
[00:33:25] a crater because you can set it to air
[00:33:27] detonate. So like a couple feet off the
[00:33:29] ground.
[00:33:30] >> Okay. Uh, so if you don't see a crater,
[00:33:32] that's probably because they could have
[00:33:34] put a setting so it could air burst down
[00:33:35] and send the shrapnel down into
[00:33:37] everybody.
[00:33:38] >> Um, yeah. So that was a precision
[00:33:40] munitions because I've been tracking
[00:33:42] this since the start.
[00:33:43] >> The bunker buster bombs are to clear out
[00:33:46] Gaza. The precision munitions are to
[00:33:48] kill journalists and aid workers.
[00:33:51] >> And one of the reasons you want to use
[00:33:52] precision missiles is because it's
[00:33:54] easier to make sure that they're
[00:33:55] actually dead. Because if you drop a
[00:33:57] 2,000lb bomb, everything's destroyed.
[00:33:59] So, did you get the guy? Did you not?
[00:34:02] Did they somehow mistak miraculously
[00:34:04] survive? But right now, after the drone
[00:34:06] strike happened, they have a thermal
[00:34:07] imaging
[00:34:09] >> suite which you could actually monitor
[00:34:11] people's body temperature. So, as the
[00:34:13] body temperature is reducing, you can be
[00:34:15] like, "Okay, make an assessment. That
[00:34:17] guy's probably not alive anymore." So,
[00:34:20] >> you can do what's called a um aerial
[00:34:22] battle damage assessment. So right after
[00:34:24] the drone strike there, that drone was
[00:34:26] still in a holding pattern observing all
[00:34:29] the casualties getting um you know taken
[00:34:32] care of by first responders and they
[00:34:34] made a determination. So there's no
[00:34:35] doubt in my mind
[00:34:37] >> that this was absolutely a targeted
[00:34:39] strike because every time they kill
[00:34:40] journalists they don't use bombs, they
[00:34:41] use these precision weapons.
[00:34:43] >> Well, I think the other part of it is
[00:34:44] it's like a psychological operation on
[00:34:47] their colleagues, right? they have to
[00:34:49] pull the still they can see it's their
[00:34:52] colleagues and they're pulling them out
[00:34:54] like yeah
[00:34:55] >> you know that's part of I think their
[00:34:56] sadistic nature um is to terrorize
[00:35:00] everybody around them right like they're
[00:35:02] trying I I think they probably haven't
[00:35:04] realized how committed Palestinians are
[00:35:06] and so they're trying to scare them and
[00:35:08] thinking you know if we show them what's
[00:35:11] happened to their colleagues maybe
[00:35:12] they're going to stop
[00:35:14] >> I mean if they haven't after two years I
[00:35:17] don't know like
[00:35:18] >> exactly Right.
[00:35:19] >> And you know, I'm in touch with
[00:35:20] journalists in Gaza and some of them are
[00:35:22] like 19 years old and they just started
[00:35:26] two months ago and they got like
[00:35:28] >> 800 followers on Instagram and like 30
[00:35:31] followers on Twitter. But like it's just
[00:35:34] it's kind of like Hamas or like any
[00:35:36] resistance group within the script. Like
[00:35:37] >> you don't need training to be a
[00:35:38] journalist. You just actually have to
[00:35:40] like want to tell the truth and also to
[00:35:43] be there. And it's like you're gonna
[00:35:45] you're either going to go and if you're
[00:35:46] an angry kid because they've created a
[00:35:48] whole new acronym, wounded child, no
[00:35:51] surviving family, well, you're going to
[00:35:53] become a journalist or you're going to
[00:35:54] join a an armed group or you're going to
[00:35:57] do something um with a lot of pissed-off
[00:35:59] young men and women as well.
[00:36:02] >> So, um this is they're just going to
[00:36:05] keep doing this. But that is a good
[00:36:06] point about the psychological operation.
[00:36:08] You know, we're not going to destroy the
[00:36:09] bodies because you need to recover them.
[00:36:11] And the thing that just killed me
[00:36:13] yesterday is I don't know if you realize
[00:36:15] but one of Anas's best friend is another
[00:36:18] journalist. He's called
[00:36:19] >> Wada.
[00:36:20] >> And his wife has you I you know what's
[00:36:24] the disease? It's like it has an
[00:36:26] acronym. I can't remember exactly what
[00:36:28] it's called but there are increasing
[00:36:30] cases of it happening in Gaza and
[00:36:33] essentially you just die in 10 days. It
[00:36:34] attacks your nervous system. So this guy
[00:36:36] has been for the last three days. He
[00:36:39] just for the first time he was like,
[00:36:41] "I'm not talking. I'm not reporting. I'm
[00:36:43] telling you about my wife. She has this
[00:36:45] thing. They're telling me with the
[00:36:47] doctors say if she doesn't get medicine
[00:36:48] within 10 days she's going to die."
[00:36:50] There's like a picture of him. She's not
[00:36:52] even in the hospital. She's on a bed
[00:36:54] outside of the hospital. And so
[00:36:57] yesterday morning he posted that like he
[00:37:01] got medicine for her because he, you
[00:37:03] know, everybody was talking about it.
[00:37:05] Somehow medicine got in to the Jordanian
[00:37:08] field hospital and he was so happy and
[00:37:10] he was just like, I have this medicine
[00:37:12] that's saving my wife's life. So you
[00:37:15] imagine you're going through four days
[00:37:16] thinking your wife is going to die and
[00:37:17] you're going to be left with three
[00:37:19] little kids. You finally get relief from
[00:37:22] that and then your best friend is like
[00:37:24] blown up. like I just couldn't I was
[00:37:27] like how much can somebody take in a in
[00:37:29] a day and that was another thing that I
[00:37:31] think I know what I so appreciated you
[00:37:34] when I first saw you um talking about
[00:37:37] you know how you could tell because of
[00:37:39] the munitions that they were using and
[00:37:41] the way that they were using them that
[00:37:42] this was not normal and for me it was
[00:37:44] things like it is not normal for a
[00:37:47] journalist to be this is in the first
[00:37:49] week driving in a car holding two
[00:37:51] bleeding babies it is not normal for
[00:37:54] journalists to go went into hospitals
[00:37:56] and see their family members. Like to me
[00:37:58] that was why it was so clearly genocidal
[00:38:02] >> from that type of information. Like that
[00:38:04] just isn't
[00:38:05] a normal conflict in any way from sort
[00:38:10] of the start.
[00:38:12] >> Yeah. Uh, and this actually is a great
[00:38:15] segue into my my kind of like what I
[00:38:16] wanted to talk about last at the last
[00:38:18] part of this was
[00:38:21] other journalists who had served like in
[00:38:23] the field like CNN's Clarissa Ward, you
[00:38:25] know, she's been, you know, in covering
[00:38:28] conflicts in West Asia, in the Middle
[00:38:30] East for a long time. Like, how could
[00:38:32] she not see what's going on?
[00:38:37] >> I mean, I think for for people at that
[00:38:39] level, there's a tremendous amount of
[00:38:41] ego, right? like you're sort of like a
[00:38:43] celebrity and also I think you know a
[00:38:45] lot of journalists like that go into
[00:38:47] work for think tanks afterwards so
[00:38:49] they're already sort of
[00:38:50] >> maybe believing in the in the party
[00:38:53] line. Um, and then the other thing is
[00:38:55] she would want to be there, right? Like
[00:38:57] I think
[00:38:59] as much as for all the problems I have
[00:39:01] with the BBC and with CNN and
[00:39:03] everything, there are producers who are
[00:39:05] sitting there looking at all the footage
[00:39:07] coming in and then shaping it into
[00:39:09] documentaries and narratives like The
[00:39:11] Doctors Under Fire, which the BBC
[00:39:12] refused to publish, but they recently
[00:39:14] did one on children being killed where
[00:39:17] they sort of forensically um
[00:39:20] using doctor testimonies and looking at,
[00:39:23] you know, using footage and geollocating
[00:39:26] everything proving, okay, there were
[00:39:27] soldiers here. This kid was here.
[00:39:29] There's here's an X-ray of a bullet in
[00:39:30] his head. And they're just, you know,
[00:39:33] able to kind of investigate and prove
[00:39:36] what is going on. And but those are the
[00:39:38] producers whose face you're never going
[00:39:40] to see their face, right? Whereas the
[00:39:42] big onair personalities, like they have
[00:39:46] to go because it's they have to be
[00:39:48] there, you know? They're not. And and
[00:39:49] I'm sure part of that is their job
[00:39:51] description, too, right?
[00:39:53] >> Yeah. Um,
[00:39:54] >> no. I um, you know, it was funny. Uh, my
[00:39:57] friend, the activist Rama Zayn, she
[00:39:59] actually confronted uh, Clarissa.
[00:40:01] >> I love that. That was so amazing. And
[00:40:03] it's so true. I'm like, this is how the
[00:40:04] Arab world thinks.
[00:40:06] >> Yeah. No, because like Clarissa Ward,
[00:40:09] >> she she ducked taking mortar fire. There
[00:40:12] were there was there was no rocket fire
[00:40:14] in her.
[00:40:14] >> You know, I used I didn't do a lot of
[00:40:16] like live reporting. I mean,
[00:40:18] occasionally I would be called in
[00:40:19] because they'd need some freelancer to
[00:40:21] talk about it and some producer would
[00:40:22] get my number.
[00:40:24] >> People would go on the roof and put they
[00:40:26] put on their flag jacket
[00:40:28] >> to like go on air like you're standing
[00:40:30] on a roof. Nobody's coming to get you,
[00:40:33] right? Because they have to play up this
[00:40:35] kind of like I'm a brave war reporter.
[00:40:37] Like I actually remember seeing I can't
[00:40:39] remember who it was in the green zone
[00:40:41] like in so inside the convention center
[00:40:44] which is where the US military would do
[00:40:45] all of their press conferences. So to
[00:40:47] get into the green zone at that point
[00:40:49] you it was like going through nine
[00:40:51] versions of airport security you know
[00:40:54] like a cavity search like nothing was
[00:40:56] getting in there and she was standing in
[00:40:59] the convention center lit up with a flat
[00:41:02] jacket on. I'm like, you don't need
[00:41:03] that, honey.
[00:41:05] You know, but it's it's there is a
[00:41:07] certain amount of theater involved in in
[00:41:11] you know, it's entertainment to a
[00:41:13] certain extent. And that is kind of what
[00:41:15] I wanted to get into like how has now
[00:41:18] now that we have access to what's
[00:41:21] actually going on on the ground in a way
[00:41:23] that's unprecedented uh before like how
[00:41:26] how do how is mainstream media going to
[00:41:29] reconcile this new age where you know
[00:41:31] people are losing confidence in them and
[00:41:33] you know we also talked about the US
[00:41:34] government last night like they're
[00:41:36] they're putting these narratives forward
[00:41:40] um you know and that a lot of reporters
[00:41:42] will actually reflect CT or pass on or
[00:41:46] perpetuate because you know there's
[00:41:47] something to be said for access
[00:41:48] journalism. You want access to powerful
[00:41:50] people. You have to say what they want
[00:41:52] you to say. Um you know put forward but
[00:41:55] it it's not really working anymore. And
[00:41:57] we we
[00:41:58] >> you need access to powerful people
[00:42:00] because powerful people mostly are going
[00:42:02] to lie and they can just put it out in a
[00:42:04] press release. Like sorry that's just an
[00:42:06] aside but like I think having access to
[00:42:08] the disenfranchised is a lot more
[00:42:11] important if you want to be a reporter.
[00:42:13] Yeah. Well, you know, again,
[00:42:14] >> yeah, they do have to do that.
[00:42:16] >> Yeah. So, I don't know. And it just
[00:42:18] seems like the administration, both
[00:42:20] Democrats and Republicans, you know, are
[00:42:22] kind of like doubling down and being
[00:42:24] like, "Okay, yeah, well, you know, we're
[00:42:26] lying about this. This is horrible." But
[00:42:28] you know what? Shut up. We're going to
[00:42:30] do it anyways. Um,
[00:42:32] >> they are going to do it anyway. That was
[00:42:33] the sad thing I kind of saw in Iraq,
[00:42:35] right? like as a
[00:42:36] >> young journalist thinking like, "Oh my
[00:42:38] god, I'm going to expose all these
[00:42:40] things and it's going to change
[00:42:41] something." And then just like it didn't
[00:42:44] [ __ ] change a thing.
[00:42:46] >> It it made a record. Do you know what I
[00:42:48] mean? Like there's proof,
[00:42:49] >> but it didn't change anything. Like I
[00:42:51] feel like when they know they're going
[00:42:52] to do a crime, they're going to finish
[00:42:53] the crime. And until now, I actually I
[00:42:56] always thought Iraq was like the
[00:42:58] greatest crime I would see in my
[00:42:59] lifetime.
[00:43:01] And now I'm like, "Oh, this one's even
[00:43:04] bigger and worse and sociopathic on top
[00:43:07] of it." Because I don't think that
[00:43:08] either the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan
[00:43:11] were genocidal. There was definitely a
[00:43:13] lack of concern for human civilian life,
[00:43:15] but it wasn't there wasn't this seething
[00:43:17] hatred for every single person. I don't
[00:43:19] know. You were in the military. Did you
[00:43:20] feel that your comrades were kind of
[00:43:23] like I'm sure they called them like
[00:43:24] hajis and towel heads and bad guys, but
[00:43:27] did they think every child was a
[00:43:30] potential threat?
[00:43:32] >> No, actually, you know, some people
[00:43:34] might might not believe this, but like
[00:43:37] >> um my my my platoon never
[00:43:40] killed anyone that didn't have a gun
[00:43:42] >> actively in their hand. Like I mean,
[00:43:44] look, look, I I'll be I'll be serious.
[00:43:46] like a every fire team had a drop gun
[00:43:49] just in case. Um
[00:43:51] >> Oh, okay.
[00:43:52] >> Yeah. So, that was that was some sketchy
[00:43:54] cop [ __ ] but it never actually happened
[00:43:56] luckily. So, I don't
[00:43:57] >> But um no, it wasn't an institutional
[00:44:01] like that's that's what genocide is at
[00:44:02] this level. It's an institutionalized
[00:44:04] policy targeting a single group of
[00:44:06] people. We were targeting foreign
[00:44:08] fighters coming from Pakistan and Saudi
[00:44:11] Arabia and the Gulf. you know, um, you
[00:44:14] know, we weren't going to go and like,
[00:44:15] you know, go into this village and like
[00:44:17] do some mi stuff, uh, you know, just to
[00:44:21] punish the civilian. I'm like, of
[00:44:22] course, there's a reason I got
[00:44:24] radicalized. Yeah.
[00:44:25] >> Um, and I'll I've never apologized for
[00:44:27] my role in the US Empire, but uh, it
[00:44:31] wasn't like this. Um, and so this is
[00:44:34] what's bizarre and why I keep like
[00:44:36] hoping somehow that this will like
[00:44:38] change journalism in some way going
[00:44:40] forward just how egregious this is
[00:44:44] because like the gaslighting is on a
[00:44:46] whole another level. You know, you
[00:44:47] didn't have Donald Rumsfeld saying like
[00:44:49] kill every Iraqi baby. They're all
[00:44:52] snakes like you know like human animals.
[00:44:55] >> Everybody's like it's it's okay. Israel
[00:44:56] has a right to defend itself. Like it's
[00:44:58] just bizarre. Um, so
[00:45:00] >> it was just more, it's hard for me to
[00:45:02] think at the time that like anything run
[00:45:05] by George Bush Jr. could be described as
[00:45:09] sophisticated like, but in comparison to
[00:45:13] the um Israeli Hosbbor, it it was like a
[00:45:18] like one level below being so obviously
[00:45:22] a lie. And one of the things I actually
[00:45:24] was thinking about after uh Anas's
[00:45:28] murder was how um I mean just the fact
[00:45:32] that Israel even gets to say and it's
[00:45:34] it's repeated as fact like oh he was he
[00:45:37] was running a terror cell. Like first of
[00:45:39] all I'd love to know how you can be on
[00:45:40] air all the time and be running a terror
[00:45:43] cell at the same time. Like that's some
[00:45:45] Superman level stuff. But you know there
[00:45:49] was a um the minister of information in
[00:45:52] Iraq. This guy called Muhammad Alip. He
[00:45:55] was christened by the press chemical
[00:45:58] comical Alley. Chemical Alley was the
[00:46:00] guy in charge of the uh we biological
[00:46:04] weapons and then they so they called the
[00:46:06] other this guy uh comical Alley or
[00:46:08] Baghdad Bob because he was telling such
[00:46:11] lies. He'd be like right
[00:46:14] >> I remember Baghdad Bob. remember Baghdad
[00:46:17] Baghdad Bob. Okay, so he became Baghdad
[00:46:20] Bob because he was shown to be lying,
[00:46:22] right? So, how many like Israel has
[00:46:26] never like you can constantly prove that
[00:46:29] they're lying and yet we're still
[00:46:31] quoting them. And I'm just like, okay,
[00:46:33] if you guys want to be Middle Eastern,
[00:46:34] like why aren't you getting treated like
[00:46:36] all the other Middle Eastern leaders who
[00:46:38] are always like ridiculed and assumed to
[00:46:40] be lying, but somehow
[00:46:42] >> like it's just not it's there's like no
[00:46:44] sort of false equivalency. never seen a
[00:46:48] journalist in any other conflict be
[00:46:50] killed and right away it's like oh but
[00:46:53] it's because actually you know
[00:46:57] >> that that that is a first I think I
[00:47:00] haven't seen
[00:47:00] >> yeah I haven't seen it I mean mostly if
[00:47:02] it's a western journalist everybody just
[00:47:04] writes these glowing reviews they don't
[00:47:06] bring up all the stories that they told
[00:47:08] that could have been wrong because
[00:47:10] people make mistakes it's the first
[00:47:11] draft of history blah blah blah no one's
[00:47:13] over like and last year they said this
[00:47:16] and it was wrong. You know, I just it's
[00:47:19] just beyond anything. I mean, I think
[00:47:22] that one of the reasons um in the leadup
[00:47:25] to this, you know, there are a lot of
[00:47:27] Israeli media watchdog organizations
[00:47:30] like Canary is one of them. And I have
[00:47:32] friends who work like I have a friend
[00:47:33] who works at the AP and like they are
[00:47:36] just relentless at harassing journalists
[00:47:40] and editors because they have this sort
[00:47:42] of like freelance army of I think
[00:47:44] there's like 16,000 people and they'll
[00:47:46] like post on their website like you know
[00:47:48] they said this they called them the
[00:47:50] occupied territories instead of the West
[00:47:52] Bank and then a thousand people write a
[00:47:54] letter to this editor and like news
[00:47:56] people are already like sort of crushed
[00:47:58] under you know
[00:48:00] >> correspondence.
[00:48:00] >> Yeah. like a well anybody in the like
[00:48:02] the editors like they all have way more
[00:48:04] work than they used to because the
[00:48:05] budgets have been cut and there's just a
[00:48:06] lot less people and so I think that even
[00:48:10] if it's not intentional
[00:48:12] when you are constantly I'm talking
[00:48:14] about this going on for years when
[00:48:16] you're constantly being harassed any
[00:48:19] time you do anything eventually you
[00:48:21] could just start kind of sliding like
[00:48:24] okay I'm not going to call them the
[00:48:25] occupied territories I'm going to call
[00:48:26] it the West Bank because
[00:48:28] >> I'm trying to get a story out
[00:48:29] >> yeah I'm trying to get a story And
[00:48:31] tomorrow my inbox is going to have like,
[00:48:33] you know, a thousand emails in it. I'm
[00:48:35] not saying that it's right, but you
[00:48:36] know, I think that it's like I mean,
[00:48:38] because this propaganda has been going
[00:48:40] on for so long that it has everybody it
[00:48:44] people in newsrooms who are just normal
[00:48:46] people who aren't in the upper levels
[00:48:47] who are talking about god knows [ __ ]
[00:48:49] what. Um,
[00:48:52] just have been, you know, heranged to a
[00:48:56] point. I'm not saying it's correct, but
[00:48:57] I think they that that is a part of the
[00:49:00] way that things have always been
[00:49:01] reported in the kind of like ongoing
[00:49:04] this pro-Israeli propaganda. Come at me,
[00:49:06] canary.
[00:49:08] >> Yeah. I mean, I I was never in I wasn't
[00:49:10] in acade academia when I started talking
[00:49:12] about this, so I never got do I got
[00:49:14] doxed by other by other groups. I forget
[00:49:16] which ones, but um yeah, I don't know.
[00:49:19] Just do do you see the media landscape
[00:49:21] changing because of this in any
[00:49:23] substantial way? I know it's hard to
[00:49:24] tell or predict, but everything still
[00:49:25] seems so
[00:49:27] so entrenched. You've got like magazines
[00:49:30] like in Germany like posting that Anas
[00:49:33] was like a terrorist, like actually like
[00:49:34] towing the Hasbar line. And of course,
[00:49:36] you know, all the right-wing media in a
[00:49:38] country like that is always going to do
[00:49:40] that. But like
[00:49:44] CNN reporters, Fox News, like people at
[00:49:46] like the AP Reuters, like do they not
[00:49:49] know that journalists are being their
[00:49:51] colleagues? uh from another country are
[00:49:54] being intentional.
[00:49:55] >> I don't even know if they really think
[00:49:57] of them as their colleagues to be
[00:49:59] honest. Like I sat in I didn't go to a
[00:50:01] lot of press conferences
[00:50:04] during my time covering conflict because
[00:50:07] I was like I like to kind of be
[00:50:10] interviewing people in the field but um
[00:50:13] you know a lot of people are sent to
[00:50:14] cover that and there was such a
[00:50:16] division. It's like the classroom, you
[00:50:18] know, where the popular kids sit on one
[00:50:20] side and then the jocks sit on another
[00:50:21] side. Like the Arab reporters or the
[00:50:23] Iraqi reporters were always in one place
[00:50:25] and then all the Western journalists
[00:50:26] were in another place. It was like
[00:50:30] I don't know. It was just weird and
[00:50:32] colonial.
[00:50:34] >> Yeah. I mean I I definitely don't
[00:50:35] function that way. Um
[00:50:36] >> No, I don't either. I'm like why would
[00:50:38] you be here if you don't want to
[00:50:40] actually talk to people from a place?
[00:50:42] Just go home. But
[00:50:43] >> I'm here to be on camera with my my my
[00:50:47] cute little flack vest,
[00:50:48] >> right? I'm here to sit in the green zone
[00:50:50] and just like take down whatever Kimmit
[00:50:53] and his Dan Senor. Oh my god, I hate
[00:50:55] that man so much. He was like Senor
[00:50:58] Kimttaki. He's now married to somebody
[00:51:00] who's on the news and he has some think
[00:51:02] tank position. Look him up. He's a real
[00:51:05] treat.
[00:51:05] >> He was like the Matt Miller of Iraq.
[00:51:09] >> Real. Okay. Yeah. I mean,
[00:51:10] >> you know, just like twisting everything.
[00:51:13] Nothing's ever what you think you saw.
[00:51:15] Like the same. I mean, that was kind of
[00:51:18] I feel like people got to see what went
[00:51:20] on in those news conferences that wasn't
[00:51:22] broadcast because there just wasn't the
[00:51:24] sort of 24-hour cycle or you know what I
[00:51:26] mean? But that's what it was like. Like
[00:51:28] you ask a question and then you just get
[00:51:30] a Matt Miller answer, which is also why
[00:51:32] I didn't go. You know, I I'm wondering
[00:51:36] now like a after the the examples set by
[00:51:40] journalists in Gaza, a lot of a lot of
[00:51:43] whom didn't go to like, you know,
[00:51:45] graduate school for journalism. And of
[00:51:48] course, like that's that's also a very
[00:51:50] colonial mindset is like where'd you get
[00:51:52] your degree? How can you be reporting on
[00:51:54] these things without
[00:51:55] >> You really do not need a degree to be a
[00:51:57] journalist at all. You just need to be
[00:51:59] there and like write down what you see.
[00:52:01] >> Yeah. Um,
[00:52:02] >> I mean there's obviously so many
[00:52:04] different types of journalists, but you
[00:52:07] don't need a degree. I mean, in the old
[00:52:09] days, people used to start out in the
[00:52:11] ink room, you know, in newspapers and
[00:52:12] work their way up.
[00:52:15] >> It wasn't like a training. So I guess
[00:52:19] like that is also part of the
[00:52:20] coloniality is like you haven't gone to
[00:52:22] a western journalism school or you don't
[00:52:24] have even a bachelor's degree from some
[00:52:27] place you know and of course you know
[00:52:29] journalists who grow up grew up in you
[00:52:31] know Jordan or Iraq
[00:52:33] >> are probably not going to have had the
[00:52:36] opportunity to go to Colombia school of
[00:52:38] journalism you know
[00:52:40] >> so that that's another barrier of entry
[00:52:42] that kind of like shapes the narrative
[00:52:43] around that and blocks people from
[00:52:45] access to this and of course Edward Sed
[00:52:47] wrote about this the uh
[00:52:48] institutionalized racism within western
[00:52:51] uh liberal universities
[00:52:53] >> uh in his book seminal book orientalism
[00:52:55] and we're kind of like seeing that play
[00:52:56] out through the entire journalism
[00:52:58] spectrum right now and I'm just kind of
[00:52:59] hoping
[00:53:00] >> that maybe this is all leading people to
[00:53:03] like find alternative media
[00:53:06] >> I think so I hope so I mean I don't read
[00:53:09] the media I look I get my news through
[00:53:12] social media and I mean I know I have
[00:53:14] the time and the interest to do that but
[00:53:16] I will look
[00:53:18] so many different sources and then try
[00:53:19] to and if I'm interested in something
[00:53:21] I'll go a little deeper and I'll try to
[00:53:22] find somebody else and then just like
[00:53:24] you know verify it my own way um by
[00:53:28] making sure you know there's a number of
[00:53:30] people that saw it. So, and and the
[00:53:33] other thing is now
[00:53:35] um like the traditional or the
[00:53:38] mainstream media is lagging behind what
[00:53:40] you find on like we saw the ambulance
[00:53:43] workers get shot two days before it
[00:53:46] started appearing in the news, right?
[00:53:48] >> So, you're seeing everything first. So,
[00:53:51] I don't know. I don't know how they're
[00:53:52] going to what's happen. I mean, I think
[00:53:55] there's just
[00:53:57] >> I don't know. It's there's there's so
[00:53:58] many conversations around this, right?
[00:54:00] because there's the whole rise of AI and
[00:54:01] deep fakes and um
[00:54:03] >> and fake news and people not believing
[00:54:05] anything. So, I definitely think that
[00:54:08] there's going to be an erosion and
[00:54:10] there's going to be I mean I think
[00:54:11] what's good now is there are multiple
[00:54:14] channels. You know what I mean? There's
[00:54:15] so many there's the Young Turks, there's
[00:54:17] you there's Midas, there's the Teao for
[00:54:19] I mean whatever you think of any of
[00:54:21] these channels they exist because of
[00:54:24] there's enough people that want to see
[00:54:25] something different. I think that the
[00:54:27] thing that I that makes me concerned is,
[00:54:31] you know, the big news organizations are
[00:54:34] the ones that can fund deep
[00:54:36] investigative work, right? They're the
[00:54:39] ones like,
[00:54:40] >> you know, I could go to Fallujah for a
[00:54:42] month and pay $100 a day for my
[00:54:44] translator and $100 a day for my driver
[00:54:47] and buy food for everybody because I had
[00:54:50] like a mainstream channel backing it. I
[00:54:53] wouldn't have been able to do that
[00:54:54] otherwise. like you can't just I'm sure
[00:54:56] you'd love to go over to the Middle East
[00:54:58] and dig around, but like you probably
[00:54:59] don't have the the means to do that. So,
[00:55:03] I I just I don't know. I I feel like a
[00:55:05] lot can also be lost by not having,
[00:55:10] you know, I don't know. It's confusing.
[00:55:12] I mean, that's a really good point
[00:55:13] because, you know, I could I could go to
[00:55:15] the Middle East and because, you know,
[00:55:16] I've had the opportunity to like become
[00:55:18] self-employed basically through like
[00:55:20] subscriptions,
[00:55:22] um, you know, that like fund my travel
[00:55:24] like I mean I'm I'm paycheck to
[00:55:25] paycheck, but I'm still able to like fly
[00:55:27] places, but like you know, beyond like
[00:55:29] room and board and plane tickets like
[00:55:31] hiring people
[00:55:32] >> expensive, incred they're so expensive,
[00:55:35] especially if you want to actually pay
[00:55:37] people properly. But that's I I think
[00:55:39] another layer of the colonialism of of
[00:55:42] foreign reporting that I want to bring
[00:55:43] up is that as much as um you know the
[00:55:47] whole there's this huge movement I
[00:55:48] actually signed a petition now I'm like
[00:55:50] I don't know why I signed that but you
[00:55:51] know of all these journalists saying let
[00:55:53] people in um
[00:55:56] because you know it's like we're
[00:55:58] independent because somehow if you're
[00:55:59] from a place you can't be independent
[00:56:01] like you can't report on Texas Greg
[00:56:03] because you're from Texas so you're
[00:56:05] obviously going to be lying.
[00:56:07] Um, but the thing is, as soon as you get
[00:56:10] in there, you're hiring a local person
[00:56:12] to translate for you. So, if apparently
[00:56:16] these people can't be trusted, then what
[00:56:17] if they're translating everything wrong,
[00:56:19] right? So, it's really you're just
[00:56:20] slapping a western face on top of this
[00:56:23] information gathering um operation that
[00:56:27] completely relies on local people.
[00:56:30] >> You know, that is an excellent point
[00:56:32] that I hadn't considered for some
[00:56:33] reason. you know, when I was doing like
[00:56:35] field interrogations and tactical
[00:56:37] questioning, um, I had to get rid of two
[00:56:41] interrogators because they were
[00:56:43] mistransating because like I went to
[00:56:45] language school for Dari Persian. Oh,
[00:56:47] >> okay. So, you could tell.
[00:56:48] >> Well, at the beginning, I would never
[00:56:50] tell them that I knew enough to
[00:56:53] understand what they're saying and
[00:56:54] especially knew enough to understand if
[00:56:56] they're not saying what I want them to
[00:56:58] say,
[00:56:59] >> uh, or what I'm asking them to say. So,
[00:57:01] yeah, that's definitely a thing, too. So
[00:57:02] it's like why don't you just cut out the
[00:57:05] middleman and like the foreign
[00:57:07] >> journalist. But that's what I think is
[00:57:09] amazing about social media and and just
[00:57:13] the fact that everybody can is empowered
[00:57:15] enough at least to you know show people
[00:57:18] what's happening to them. And then
[00:57:19] another thing and we mentioned this
[00:57:21] briefly that I think is and this just
[00:57:23] this relates to Gaza but I see it
[00:57:25] happening elsewhere obviously is the I
[00:57:28] think I mean I know I've become very
[00:57:29] close to a guy in Gaza who's become like
[00:57:32] I talk to him every day and he I asked
[00:57:33] him [ __ ] I'm like what's happening like
[00:57:35] as soon as they started saying Hamas is
[00:57:37] is is uh stealing the aid he was like no
[00:57:40] it's criminal gangs they're stealing it
[00:57:42] the soldiers watch them you know and so
[00:57:45] which is I mean that's reporting right
[00:57:47] asking people what they see I heard that
[00:57:50] and like two months before uh it was
[00:57:53] reported on and I think that there's a
[00:57:55] lot of people because I see it in the
[00:57:57] comments who through things like
[00:57:58] GoFundMe have become pen pals with
[00:58:02] people in Gaza who are hearing
[00:58:03] everything straight from the horse's
[00:58:05] mouth and realizing how much they're
[00:58:08] being lied to. I don't know. It's it's
[00:58:10] it's like a very uh big question, right?
[00:58:13] Because in a way you're like what's the
[00:58:15] purpose of journalism in a really
[00:58:16] connected world and
[00:58:19] >> well to synthesize information to become
[00:58:21] a trusted voice that people don't have
[00:58:23] to search for themselves because most
[00:58:24] people you know they they want to be
[00:58:26] they want to be informed but they also
[00:58:29] don't have enough time to do the
[00:58:30] research themselves. So you try to spend
[00:58:32] years building up credibility and
[00:58:34] building up sources. And you know there
[00:58:36] are some people that you know um I know
[00:58:38] that I'm among a few people that certain
[00:58:41] individuals only follow and only listen
[00:58:42] to. So I try to you know uh
[00:58:45] >> yeah no I mean I've always felt that as
[00:58:47] a journalist and like the only thing I
[00:58:49] have is my integrity. The only reason
[00:58:50] people I can convince anybody to talk to
[00:58:52] me is because they feel like I'm gonna
[00:58:55] be truthful to what they said. Like I'm
[00:58:57] not. But I don't know. I don't know that
[00:59:00] everybody I definitely I can't see why
[00:59:02] anybody would have that faith now in any
[00:59:06] of the mainstream organizations because
[00:59:08] the mask has fallen so far off. So, you
[00:59:11] know, this is kind of my final point
[00:59:14] slashquest
[00:59:15] is that, you know, a lot of people I
[00:59:18] think within the media the the the
[00:59:20] legacy media apparatus kind of know
[00:59:22] what's going on is wrong and they're
[00:59:24] eventually going to have to like do some
[00:59:26] revisionist history on themselves and
[00:59:27] their reporting just like Piers Morgan
[00:59:30] is doing right now because he was a
[00:59:31] straight has barrist, you know, uh
[00:59:34] during the the first year and a half and
[00:59:36] it wasn't until this complete
[00:59:38] >> um
[00:59:40] blockade of food, mass starvation as a
[00:59:43] matter of state policy that he's he's
[00:59:45] only started to ask actual questions of
[00:59:48] these propagandists. So, he's going to
[00:59:50] try to do a reform. I think a lot of
[00:59:52] people are going to try to do a reform.
[00:59:54] Um, you know, what's the comment about
[00:59:56] like uh like like liberals, especially
[00:59:58] in the media, you know, they're against
[01:00:00] every war except the current one.
[01:00:01] >> Yeah, exactly.
[01:00:03] >> Canada, who just had its reckoning with
[01:00:05] mass graves of children, but apparently
[01:00:08] didn't learn anything from that.
[01:00:10] you know, in some ways
[01:00:11] >> like the same thing happening in Gaza
[01:00:12] and and you know, just
[01:00:15] >> yeah, I mean, we we forget that you
[01:00:17] know, the Canada was almost actually in
[01:00:20] some ways more brutal towards the end.
[01:00:22] >> That's what I keep saying to people. I'm
[01:00:24] like, we're just watching what happened.
[01:00:25] This is how we got our country. It was
[01:00:27] probably slower and it wasn't filmed.
[01:00:29] >> Yeah. And so my question is like
[01:00:34] Iraq,
[01:00:35] >> you know, everyone universally pretty
[01:00:37] much universally agrees that that was a
[01:00:41] big whoopsie.
[01:00:43] >> Um, and you know, people report on it
[01:00:45] like that. Like like journalists who
[01:00:48] were over there in like the mid 2000s,
[01:00:51] you know, basically towing this the the
[01:00:53] line manufacturing consent are now
[01:00:55] pretending like, you know, the the Iraq
[01:00:58] war was a mistake. you know, they lied
[01:01:00] about weapons of mass destruction and
[01:01:01] like you were selling, you know, State
[01:01:03] Department talking points. I mean, do
[01:01:06] you see this a similar thing happening
[01:01:07] in 10 years?
[01:01:09] >> I mean, I think it's already started to
[01:01:11] happen and this is what I kind of
[01:01:13] thought at the beginning when in the
[01:01:15] beginning of Gaza, I saw so many
[01:01:16] similarities to the beginning of the
[01:01:18] Iraq war and I'm like, you know, they
[01:01:20] change their mind when it's too late.
[01:01:22] They manufacture consent. they beat the
[01:01:24] drum of war and then once the oper like
[01:01:26] you can't unroll the operation like it's
[01:01:29] going on then and I think it's just to
[01:01:31] like win prizes and have a conscience
[01:01:34] then they start doing like the human
[01:01:36] interest stories and talking about but
[01:01:38] it's like too late like your job was
[01:01:40] supposed to be to sort of inform people
[01:01:42] I mean if you look at the New York Times
[01:01:45] they manufactured consent they had to
[01:01:46] print an apology letter right about the
[01:01:49] fact that they and Judith Miller had
[01:01:51] interviewed Ahmed Alchelvi and he said
[01:01:53] that there were, you know, weapons of
[01:01:55] mass destruction. And I'm just like, I
[01:01:57] don't even believe that they thought
[01:01:58] that was true. You know what I mean? But
[01:02:00] then they kind of like come back and but
[01:02:03] in the first six months, like their
[01:02:05] their senior correspondent John F.
[01:02:07] Burns, his the the first night of shock
[01:02:10] and awe, he wrote this article where he
[01:02:12] described seeing the American missiles,
[01:02:15] you know, falling through the sky as
[01:02:17] biblical. like,
[01:02:20] you know, dude, you're a
[01:02:22] >> praise Jesus.
[01:02:23] >> What?
[01:02:24] >> Praise Jesus.
[01:02:25] >> Oh, hallelujah. I mean, it's just so but
[01:02:28] I also do think that like and as I was
[01:02:31] saying again, there are so many
[01:02:32] different people in a lot of news rooms
[01:02:34] and there are the people that are going
[01:02:36] to kind of go in and do the like press
[01:02:38] conferences and write all that stuff and
[01:02:40] then there are the people who, you know,
[01:02:42] probably push to do different stories
[01:02:44] and it's not nec you the person that
[01:02:46] kind of wrote the biblical bomb story is
[01:02:49] not the same person that is going to
[01:02:51] have been writing about like all the
[01:02:53] kids that were orphaned in general. Um,
[01:02:57] so
[01:02:59] I don't know what I can't even remember
[01:03:01] how I gone on to that. Oh yeah, do I
[01:03:02] think the same thing will h Yeah, it
[01:03:04] will happen. I really hope people get
[01:03:05] held to account like I really hope
[01:03:07] because the media should have been held
[01:03:09] to account then and they weren't. Um and
[01:03:12] I hope that you know with people being
[01:03:16] better organized uh they will like you
[01:03:19] know there needs to be a journalism
[01:03:21] hingrajab foundation
[01:03:23] where
[01:03:26] you know it's forensic and things that
[01:03:28] people said versus the truth comes out
[01:03:31] and and people are prosecuted.
[01:03:33] Well, you know, the uh the internet is
[01:03:36] now well until society, civilization
[01:03:38] dissolves is now forever. And so that
[01:03:41] didn't exist.
[01:03:42] >> A good thing
[01:03:43] >> that didn't exist.
[01:03:44] >> No, but it's the same story. It's the
[01:03:46] It's like it's the same like much much
[01:03:49] worse and more intense story of, you
[01:03:53] know, because I think about six months
[01:03:55] ago was when you started to see the
[01:03:56] shift. Like it was like, oh, enough
[01:03:58] people are dead now. Gaza's like 70%
[01:04:01] destroyed. Now we're going to be like,
[01:04:04] "Oh, poor civilians." Like the fact that
[01:04:07] nobody wrote that every hospital was
[01:04:10] destroyed, that there wasn't a huge
[01:04:11] investigation into that, but yet when
[01:04:13] MSF the MSF hospital was bombed
[01:04:16] >> in 2015,
[01:04:17] >> Afghanistan, it was on the front of the
[01:04:18] news for like two weeks.
[01:04:22] I I mean, I don't even know what to say.
[01:04:24] Well, um I think you know some some
[01:04:29] enterprising civilian should create a a
[01:04:33] community archive of everyone who
[01:04:35] manufactured consent because you know
[01:04:37] there's going to be a mass deleting of
[01:04:39] tweets, a mass deleting of uh social
[01:04:41] media posts
[01:04:43] >> and I don't have time to do it. Uh, but
[01:04:45] everybody has their role in the
[01:04:47] struggle. And you know what? That's
[01:04:49] >> that's kind of a little bit of
[01:04:50] journalism right there if you want to
[01:04:51] pick it up. And you don't need a degree.
[01:04:54] >> Yeah. You don't need a degree.
[01:04:56] >> Yeah.
[01:04:56] >> Just need to be there. So, I guess we're
[01:04:58] just going to end with the sentiment
[01:05:00] again that, you know, you're going to
[01:05:04] have to find a way to explain to your
[01:05:06] grandkids, you know, how third grade
[01:05:10] military propaganda turned you into a
[01:05:14] bloodthirsty lunatic that manufactured
[01:05:17] consent for a genocide just so you could
[01:05:20] get on camera and pretend to dodge
[01:05:22] rocket fire. Anyways,
[01:05:25] >> yeah, everyone has propaganda except the
[01:05:28] West, right?
[01:05:29] >> No,
[01:05:29] >> that's the story. Just one more thing.
[01:05:32] You know, all of these countries that
[01:05:34] live under non-democracies, everybody
[01:05:36] [ __ ] knows the government is lying to
[01:05:37] them and it's propaganda. Like, they're
[01:05:39] so aware of that from the time they're
[01:05:40] tiny, right? But the better propaganda,
[01:05:44] I think, is to be like, "No, we tell you
[01:05:45] the truth, you know?" And so then people
[01:05:48] just don't think they're being
[01:05:49] propagandized. And I I do think there's
[01:05:51] like a mass awakening going on. But
[01:05:54] >> yeah, I mean, you know, we we've been
[01:05:57] propagandized by like Western supremacy
[01:05:59] for hundreds of years, too. You know,
[01:06:00] it's,
[01:06:01] >> you know, there have been cultural
[01:06:02] shifts in like other regions of the
[01:06:04] world, and there's been social
[01:06:05] upheavalss aside from like the French
[01:06:07] Revolution and the American Re. There
[01:06:09] hasn't really been one, you know, and
[01:06:10] the Cold War, the Cold War propaganda
[01:06:14] um really did a number on the US and
[01:06:16] British and European populations. So I
[01:06:19] would just like to say and end with
[01:06:20] this.
[01:06:22] >> You can't understand what's happening in
[01:06:24] Palestine without these three
[01:06:25] frameworks. One, colonialism. It's land
[01:06:28] theft for resource extraction. Two,
[01:06:31] capitalism. Corporate and state powers
[01:06:33] colluding for resource extraction and
[01:06:36] money. And three, white supremacy.
[01:06:39] Dehumanize brown people so their deaths
[01:06:41] for the above don't register. And that
[01:06:44] third part is important in the media to
[01:06:48] discount all the Palestinian journalists
[01:06:51] because again, you know, people, we need
[01:06:53] consent to be manufactured. And part of
[01:06:55] the manufacturing of consent is to get
[01:06:58] people to not care about brown people to
[01:07:01] say, "Hey, you don't have a journalism
[01:07:03] degree. You can't report. Um, you know,
[01:07:06] we can't trust anything that's coming
[01:07:08] out of Gaza because, you know, these
[01:07:09] people these people lie." And you know,
[01:07:13] it's all again about money. A lot of our
[01:07:16] legacy media are controlled by
[01:07:18] billionaires and corporate interests.
[01:07:20] And so that's where you trace it back
[01:07:22] to.
[01:07:23] >> Yeah. Trust trusted a person who just
[01:07:25] got parachuted in for two weeks who
[01:07:28] doesn't speak the language because they
[01:07:30] are going to be able to tell you what's
[01:07:31] going on.
[01:07:32] >> Oh my god. Uh yeah, my my partner, she
[01:07:35] talks all the time about parachute
[01:07:36] journalism. So, I mean, we're we're kind
[01:07:38] of uh we're kind of out of time right
[01:07:40] now, but yes, we I would I would listen
[01:07:43] to a local journalist who's been at it
[01:07:45] for, you know, a little bit of time over
[01:07:48] a parachute journalist, you know, from
[01:07:51] uh you know, Queens any day of the week.
[01:07:54] So, thank you all so much and thank you,
[01:07:56] Tara, for coming on and talking to us.
[01:07:57] >> Thank you so much for having me.
[01:07:59] >> Yeah. All right, y'all. Well, we're
[01:08:02] going to be wrapping it up here and we
[01:08:04] won't have time for a Q&A today. I'm so
[01:08:06] sorry, but we will be back Thursday to
[01:08:09] talk about, I don't know, something like
[01:08:12] Russia, Ukraine, ceasefire. Um, who
[01:08:15] knows? You know, the the news cycle
[01:08:16] again is so insane. So, y'all stay sane
[01:08:20] out there. It's Monday evening and we
[01:08:22] are signing out. Cheers, y'all.
[01:08:25] >> Bye.
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