The Shocking Reality of the Treatment of Christians in the Holy Land by US-Funded Israel

[00:00:00] Good evening. From where I'm standing [00:00:01] right now, I can see all around me in a [00:00:04] ring seven Christian churches. We're not [00:00:07] going to pan to see them. You can see [00:00:09] one behind me, but they're all on the [00:00:11] ridges of this valley around me. We are [00:00:14] about a 100 yards from the River Jordan [00:00:17] and about 150 yards from the spot where [00:00:20] Jesus, the Christian Savior, God on [00:00:22] Earth, was baptized by John the Baptist, [00:00:25] famously the beginning of his ministry [00:00:27] and the beginning really of the gospel. [00:00:31] John the Baptist lived famously in the [00:00:33] wilderness eating locust and honey. That [00:00:36] was right here. We are in the Holy Land, [00:00:39] but on the political map, we're in an [00:00:42] overwhelmingly Muslim country, a [00:00:45] monarchy called Jordan. And that's [00:00:48] significant particularly now because the [00:00:50] question of how Christians are treated [00:00:53] in the Holy Land is a political [00:00:55] question. And it is because much of what [00:00:59] happens in this region is funded by the [00:01:01] United States, by its taxpayers, [00:01:03] military action, but also the cultural [00:01:05] and religious life of the region is [00:01:07] funded to a great extent by American [00:01:10] Christian churches. [00:01:12] And so the question that we've asked for [00:01:14] some time now is what's the outcome? How [00:01:16] are Christians in the Holy Land doing? [00:01:19] Are they thriving [00:01:21] or are they suffering? [00:01:24] And the truth has become pretty obvious [00:01:27] over the past couple of years, which is [00:01:29] in Israel, they are not thriving. Their [00:01:32] numbers are not growing. They are [00:01:33] shrinking. And there's a huge debate [00:01:35] about why. But the bottom line is there [00:01:37] are fewer Christians now, far fewer in [00:01:40] absolute numbers and particularly as [00:01:42] percentage of population than there were [00:01:44] when the state was founded in 1948. [00:01:47] And there's a lot of evidence in the [00:01:48] last couple of years, particularly since [00:01:50] the Gaza war started and the whole tone [00:01:53] of the conversation in this area has [00:01:54] changed quite a bit and the rise of [00:01:56] extremism very noticeable that those [00:01:59] numbers have gotten even smaller. [00:02:01] And in Jerusalem, if you follow this at [00:02:04] all on the internet, you see video clip [00:02:07] after video clip of Christian clergy [00:02:10] being spit at [00:02:12] by religious extremists. not Muslim [00:02:14] religious extremists, but Jewish [00:02:16] religious extremists. And that's [00:02:17] something most Americans didn't know [00:02:18] happened, didn't think could happen, [00:02:21] particularly since the United States, [00:02:22] the most important Christian country in [00:02:24] the world, is funding this. [00:02:27] And anyone who's raised this question, [00:02:30] this show has done that, has been [00:02:33] dismissed out of hand as a liar, an [00:02:35] anti-semite, or best of all, a secret [00:02:37] jihadi, a secret Muslim. He must be a [00:02:39] Muslim. And so we thought it'd be worth [00:02:42] coming here to find out what the truth [00:02:44] is or at least getting closer to the [00:02:45] truth. The truth being pretty elusive [00:02:47] usually in political terms. But why not [00:02:49] go ahead and talk to people? Why not go [00:02:51] ahead and talk to Christians and find [00:02:54] out their side of the story? Why aren't [00:02:57] Christian churches doing this? Why [00:02:58] aren't American Christian leaders like [00:03:00] Mike Huckabe or Ted Cruz, people who [00:03:03] invoke the Christian Bible to justify [00:03:05] what they're doing? Why haven't they [00:03:06] done this? We can only guess. But they [00:03:07] haven't. they have funded the other [00:03:10] side. So we thought let's talk to them. [00:03:12] So we are about to play interviews that [00:03:14] we just did about five minutes ago with [00:03:17] two Christians from this area. One was [00:03:19] born in Israel, one was born in Jordan. [00:03:23] The one born in Israel was born in fact [00:03:25] in Jesus's hometown of Nazareth. His [00:03:28] father was literally a carpenter which [00:03:30] is kind of hilarious. He is now the [00:03:32] Anglican Archbishop of Jerusalem, which [00:03:35] is to say he's the representative of the [00:03:36] Anglican Church, the global Anglican [00:03:38] church in Jerusalem. [00:03:41] Whatever you think of the Anglican [00:03:42] church, it's not a small thing. And this [00:03:44] is a very well-informed person. And you [00:03:46] can judge for yourself whether he's [00:03:47] telling the truth or not. Our view is he [00:03:50] absolutely is telling the truth. And the [00:03:52] story that he's going to tell you in [00:03:53] just a minute is pretty shocking if [00:03:55] you're a Western Christian because it's [00:03:57] a story of Christians being oppressed [00:04:00] in Jerusalem by a government that [00:04:02] American Christians pay for. [00:04:05] >> And the second person we're going to [00:04:06] speak to is a businessman runs a bank [00:04:08] here in Jordan from a very prominent [00:04:10] Christian family. And if you're an [00:04:11] American, you may be surprised to learn [00:04:13] that in Jordan, a country that is [00:04:15] probably 97% Muslim, [00:04:19] Christians, who have been here for, of [00:04:21] course, 2,000 years, are [00:04:23] disproportionately represented at the [00:04:25] higher end of the economy, which is to [00:04:27] say there's a large number of Christian [00:04:28] families who are hugely successful in [00:04:31] Jordan and have been for a long time [00:04:34] since the creation of the state about a [00:04:37] hundred years ago. [00:04:39] That's not something you're going to see [00:04:40] on CNN. How would Christians thrive in a [00:04:44] Muslim country? And we're not experts on [00:04:46] this, of course, being not that [00:04:49] well-versed in Islam, but we thought [00:04:51] it'd be worth talking to a sincere [00:04:54] Christian whose family's been here for [00:04:56] 2,000 years, and ask, "How did that [00:04:59] happen? And what does it tell us about [00:05:01] our understanding of what's actually [00:05:04] happening in the Holy Land in Jordan, [00:05:07] the West Bank, and Israel, which again [00:05:10] is right there. We are 25 miles [00:05:13] from Jerusalem. [00:05:15] And so with that, keep an open mind, [00:05:19] listen carefully to what sincere [00:05:21] Christians in this area have to say [00:05:23] about what's happening here, and you may [00:05:25] find a story that shocks you. [00:05:28] Archbishop, thank you. Um, you live in [00:05:31] Jerusalem, but we're on the other side. [00:05:33] We're about 100 yards uh from Israel, [00:05:35] across the the West Bank, across the [00:05:37] Jordan. [00:05:38] >> Um, how are Christians doing in the Holy [00:05:41] Land? [00:05:42] >> You know, Christians in the Holy Land, [00:05:43] of course, have been here for 2,000 [00:05:45] years. [00:05:46] >> Yes. [00:05:46] >> And over the history, the Christian [00:05:48] community has thrived in phases, you [00:05:51] know, like declined in others. But I [00:05:53] think now we are on the declining end of [00:05:57] uh our Christian presence in the holy [00:05:59] land. Um in general we we still living [00:06:03] our faith witnessing to our communities [00:06:06] um and and also trying to kind of [00:06:09] maintain our presence and I'm sorry to [00:06:11] say that because maintaining because [00:06:13] maintenance is is not on the good side [00:06:16] of things. [00:06:16] >> No, it's not growth. [00:06:17] >> Yeah. It's not growth. It's not [00:06:18] thriving. is not um accomplishing and [00:06:21] achieving. Um we are custodians of um [00:06:25] the Christian faith and Jerusalem is the [00:06:28] capital uh of our faith. It's our [00:06:31] spiritual capital as Christians. But to [00:06:34] see the declining numbers of Christians [00:06:36] over the decades and especially since [00:06:38] like 48 and 67 um we have seen like [00:06:44] challenging faces of Christians facing [00:06:47] realities that we were not used to [00:06:49] before. [00:06:51] So 1948 was the year that the political [00:06:54] state of Israel was created. [00:06:56] >> That's correct. [00:06:57] >> And a huge percentage of the pop [00:06:59] population was expelled that year. 1967 [00:07:02] uh the six- day war increased the [00:07:04] territory of the state um and the [00:07:08] majority is now called occupied [00:07:09] territory. [00:07:12] Were there big declines after both of [00:07:14] those in the Christian population? [00:07:15] >> Absolutely. So you you can think about [00:07:17] you know the Christian population uh it [00:07:20] dwindled to half in 48 because many [00:07:22] people had to leave uh uh what is my [00:07:25] home land you know like where I grew in [00:07:28] Nazareth. [00:07:28] >> Yes. [00:07:29] >> In Galilee. um half of the Palestinian [00:07:32] population had to be expelled to other [00:07:34] places and who became refugees. So when [00:07:37] we speak about Palestinian refugees [00:07:39] today, they are all coming or came from [00:07:43] what is proper Israel today. [00:07:46] >> What I think most Americans don't [00:07:47] understand is that some large number of [00:07:49] those refugees who were expelled by [00:07:51] force from their land were Christian. [00:07:54] >> Yeah, there are many Christians of [00:07:55] absolutely. Let me tell you something. [00:07:57] Our congregation in Beirut, all saints, [00:08:01] uh, is 90% they come from Hifa, Ako, uh, [00:08:07] Nazareth and other places around [00:08:09] Galilee. You know, 90% of, imagine of [00:08:13] the Anglican community in Beirut are [00:08:16] Palestinian Christians who come from [00:08:18] Galilee. [00:08:19] >> Getting older can make you realize you [00:08:21] don't actually want all the things you [00:08:22] have. That's why mini storage is so big. [00:08:25] Consumerism [music] kind of loses its [00:08:27] appeal. But what you really want is [00:08:29] peace, peace of mind. And what's the [00:08:31] best way to get that? Well, keeping your [00:08:32] home and family protected would be at [00:08:34] the top of the list. Enter Simplysafe. [00:08:36] This month, you get a 50% discount on [00:08:38] your first Simply [music] Safe system. [00:08:41] Simply Safe takes a much better approach [00:08:45] to home security. 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[00:09:29] >> So in the United States, as you may or [00:09:32] may not know, Palestinian is a synonym [00:09:35] is the same word for Islamic terrorist. [00:09:38] When people in the American media say [00:09:40] Palestinian, it means someone who's an [00:09:42] Islamist basically. But you're saying [00:09:45] that a lot of those Palestinians [00:09:47] refugees were Christians, Anglicans [00:09:49] even. [00:09:50] >> No, absolutely. I think I think there [00:09:52] are many places in the world where [00:09:54] people can use words that mean something [00:09:56] really horrific. [00:09:58] >> Yes. [00:09:58] >> Uh but but that's I think that's [00:10:00] demonizing for me. That's demonizing. [00:10:02] >> Well, it sounds also untrue. [00:10:04] >> Absolutely. Because you know like I [00:10:05] think when you speak about Palestinians, [00:10:07] I'm Palestinian. [00:10:08] >> Yeah. [00:10:09] >> And I'm an archbishop. [00:10:10] >> Do I look Do I look terrorist to you? [00:10:12] Like [laughter] [00:10:13] >> you're like an applicant actually. [00:10:16] >> Yeah. So I I think you know like this [00:10:18] this is again this is like a kind of [00:10:20] killing the image of the Palestinian [00:10:22] people by claiming that they are [00:10:23] terrorists or they are univilized or [00:10:26] they are savages or you know I think [00:10:28] this is exactly like just pushing an [00:10:30] agenda where where they just want to [00:10:32] frame you so that Palestinians lose [00:10:36] sympathy in the world. That's basically [00:10:38] what it is. What's striking to me is [00:10:40] that that narrative as you said that [00:10:42] image um is being pushed not just by [00:10:46] Jewish supporters of Israel but in the [00:10:48] United States heavily by Christian [00:10:50] supporters of Israel. Christian [00:10:51] supporters of Israel in the US are [00:10:55] dismissing [00:10:56] their brother Christians in this region [00:10:59] as terrorists. I I I totally agree. [00:11:02] There are lots of agendas and especially [00:11:04] [clears throat] Christian many [00:11:05] Christians around the world you know who [00:11:07] who think that they are doing favor to [00:11:10] the Jewish people. [00:11:12] >> Yes. [00:11:12] >> Uh and I have like really kind of two um [00:11:15] fold answer to that. The first one is [00:11:18] about Jews themselves. You know as we [00:11:21] know like you know there are many Jewish [00:11:24] people people of faith um who see in [00:11:27] these groups also as people who really [00:11:29] don't work for their interest. You know, [00:11:32] we know what dispens dispensation Let me [00:11:34] just get that one. [00:11:36] >> Dispensationalism maybe. [00:11:37] >> We know what dispensationalism [00:11:40] um is is about. Uh I know that you know [00:11:43] politicians around the world and [00:11:45] especially like the colonial thinking of [00:11:48] bringing the Jewish people to the holy [00:11:51] land or to the land of Israel uh is [00:11:54] something that can really kind of fit [00:11:56] both agendas. But actually you know and [00:11:59] we have heard this time and time again [00:12:00] from many Jewish people who say that [00:12:03] this agenda eventually you know for all [00:12:06] the Jewish people coming to their [00:12:08] homelands you know becomes again kind of [00:12:11] like a trap because they all supposed to [00:12:13] convert to Christianity or die right. Uh [00:12:16] so so for them this is this is an [00:12:19] offense you know that thinking yes of [00:12:21] Zionist Christian thinking and that some [00:12:24] narratives would be damaging even to [00:12:26] Jewish people and Jewish faith. Now, for [00:12:28] us as Christians, of course, it's [00:12:31] damaging because think about like uh um [00:12:36] let me let me tell you a story, a real [00:12:37] story. I once was in a in a in a kind of [00:12:41] a community visiting England. Um and I [00:12:44] was speaking about, you know, like how [00:12:46] some Christians who have Zionist [00:12:49] approach to u the whole politics and the [00:12:52] agendas, you know, can be damaging to us [00:12:54] as Christians in the Holy Land. And they [00:12:57] say how come? I said you know because [00:12:59] this agenda of money coming from the [00:13:01] west uh sometimes you know like they uh [00:13:05] enable people settlers you know to [00:13:08] confiscate my own land like we have lots [00:13:11] of examples in Bethlehem where money [00:13:14] that comes from around the world is [00:13:16] invested in building settlements on [00:13:19] Christian land. You know what the answer [00:13:21] was? [00:13:23] They told me sometimes we need to make a [00:13:25] sacrifice for a get a better good, a [00:13:27] greater good. Can you imagine that [00:13:29] answer? [00:13:29] >> Christians told you this. [00:13:30] >> Yeah. Yeah. Christian, you know who [00:13:32] somebody told me this and I I had youth [00:13:35] group with me. I'm telling you, they [00:13:37] were in tears. They were in tears. How [00:13:40] can a Christian brother or sister around [00:13:44] the world [00:13:45] take me as kind of a means no matter [00:13:48] what happens to me? How can how can I [00:13:51] really uh reconcile myself with this? So [00:13:55] that this is so from this story I'm [00:13:57] telling you that you know these views [00:13:59] sometimes are damaging because you know [00:14:02] they are exclusive. I'm not I'm not [00:14:06] judging you know like Christian Zionists [00:14:07] for their belief. They can believe what [00:14:10] they want to believe. But when it comes [00:14:12] to exclusion, [00:14:15] excluding excluding Palestinians whether [00:14:17] they are Christian or Muslim, [00:14:18] >> right? [00:14:19] >> You know, I think this is where my [00:14:20] problem lies in their ideology if you [00:14:22] know what I mean. [00:14:23] >> It doesn't sound I mean I I think we can [00:14:26] say that Christianity does not support [00:14:29] violence. [00:14:31] >> Of course not. [00:14:32] >> Right. [00:14:32] >> Of course not. We condemn violence [00:14:33] whatever whatever it is. [00:14:35] >> And I think Jesus is pretty clear on [00:14:37] that. Absolutely. [00:14:38] >> Could not be clearer. So for a Christian [00:14:40] to say I support violence against other [00:14:44] Christians because that's what Jesus [00:14:45] wants that does that strike you as [00:14:48] valid? Is that how can that be? [00:14:50] >> Indeed. You know and this is why you [00:14:52] know we always said that you know like [00:14:54] Christianity is about bringing people [00:14:55] together. It's about um forgiveness [00:15:00] uh reconciliation peace building. You [00:15:02] know these are the values the kind of [00:15:04] the core values of Christianity. Uh and [00:15:07] if we fail as Christians to do that, to [00:15:09] bring people together, we are God's [00:15:11] people. We are God's children, whoever [00:15:13] we may be. Uh yes, we have our beliefs. [00:15:16] We have where we stand. But we as [00:15:18] Christians, we know that and we have [00:15:20] been saying this all along. For 2,000 [00:15:22] years, Christians have been witnessing [00:15:24] to this truth from the beginning. And [00:15:26] you know what? That's why we continue to [00:15:29] exist here despite you know like the [00:15:31] long history. Uh our holy sites is are [00:15:35] are our anchor here in the holy land. [00:15:37] >> So you are a Christian from Nazareth. [00:15:40] >> Yes. [00:15:40] >> Jesus's hometown. [00:15:42] >> Yes. [00:15:43] >> What did your father do? [00:15:45] >> No. My dad was a carpenter. [laughter] [00:15:48] >> I knew that. I just wanted to hear you [00:15:49] say because it's so [00:15:50] >> you know but but we we were also like we [00:15:52] we are fisherman. So if you ask me what [00:15:54] you do for a hobby that would be like [00:15:56] fishing would be my [00:15:57] >> amazing. No, it's just I mean you are a [00:16:00] Christian from Nazareth in Galilee. [00:16:02] Amazing. Um at compare Nazareth uh its [00:16:08] Christian population to your childhood [00:16:11] to now. Are there more Christians in [00:16:12] Nazareth? Nazareth now or fewer? [00:16:15] >> No, they are if they aren't fewer, let [00:16:18] me say like 50 years ago. Um um I think [00:16:22] they have not grown. [00:16:23] >> Yes. Um especially recently like you [00:16:26] know in in the last maybe two decades we [00:16:28] have seen like an exodus of Christians [00:16:30] even from Nazareth and Galilee in [00:16:32] general due to many reasons. Yeah. And [00:16:35] we are talking now what is proper Israel [00:16:38] today. Um now in the west bank is [00:16:41] different story because you know of the [00:16:42] occupation there is another narrative [00:16:44] there but inside Israel today there are [00:16:46] so many pressures not only on Christians [00:16:49] Christians or even uh some Jewish people [00:16:52] who are also leaving the country. Yes [00:16:54] >> for different reasons. [00:16:55] >> Yes you can see [00:16:57] >> um how much aid how much money do [00:17:00] Christians around the world send to [00:17:02] Christians living in Nazareth? [00:17:05] >> Very minimal. [00:17:07] >> Very minimal. Yeah. [00:17:09] >> How really you know we the Anglican [00:17:12] church of course we have um partners [00:17:14] around the world. [00:17:15] >> Yes. [00:17:16] >> And uh in especially like in in the [00:17:18] states we have the American friends of [00:17:20] the dasis of Jerusalem Anglican uh and [00:17:22] they're doing fantastic support. But if [00:17:25] you kind of um compare the amount of [00:17:28] money that comes to uh the other side um [00:17:32] we are talking about a drop in the [00:17:34] ocean. [00:17:35] >> Really? [00:17:36] >> Yeah. So, Christian churches in the [00:17:38] United States send more money to say [00:17:42] Jewish settlements in the West Bank than [00:17:43] they do to Christians in Jesus's [00:17:45] hometown of Nazareth. [00:17:46] >> That's not the secret. [00:17:48] That's not a secret. Everybody knows [00:17:50] that. [00:17:51] >> Yeah. [00:17:52] Um, what about Bethlehem? Now, Bethlehem [00:17:56] is a different challenge there. Um, I [00:17:59] don't know if you have visited Bethlehem [00:18:00] before, but you you would see that the [00:18:03] city is surrounded by the wall. um the [00:18:06] separation wall that separates um you [00:18:08] know East Jerusalem, Jerusalem from uh [00:18:12] from Bethlehem. uh and you know the [00:18:15] occupation and the kind of the um wall [00:18:18] that separates uh the two countries now [00:18:22] uh and also measures in a huge measures [00:18:24] of restrictions of movement and all of [00:18:27] that is causing many people to to leave [00:18:30] the country and now uh I think imagine [00:18:33] like 100,000 Christians in Bethlehem [00:18:37] let's say 50 years ago or so today we [00:18:40] have less than 30,000 [00:18:43] Really? [00:18:44] >> Yeah. The huge drop. [00:18:45] >> Do they receive aid from American [00:18:47] Christian churches? [00:18:49] >> No, not to my knowledge. They might [00:18:51] receive like projects here and there, [00:18:53] but you know, like substantial money to [00:18:55] keep their businesses, you know. I just [00:18:58] want you to go now, especially during [00:19:00] the war, the Gaza war in the last two [00:19:03] years. Go to Bethlehem and see what is [00:19:05] happening. [00:19:05] >> I don't think I could. [00:19:06] >> The little town of Bethlehem is bleeding [00:19:09] right now. There's no business, no [00:19:10] tourists, no visitors. [00:19:12] >> I don't understand. So, the American [00:19:13] Christian Church is, broadly speaking, [00:19:15] the church Christians in the United [00:19:16] States [00:19:17] >> is by far the richest in the world and [00:19:19] the biggest. [00:19:21] And why wouldn't they send help to [00:19:26] Christians in the town where Jesus was [00:19:28] born and the town that he grew up? You [00:19:31] know, I'm I'm sure that you know, people [00:19:33] may have different answers, but I think [00:19:35] my answer would be the kind of the big [00:19:37] answer would be which could be shocking [00:19:39] for some people that is that they would [00:19:41] be concerned that they send the money [00:19:44] and it ends up in the hands of the wrong [00:19:46] people, [00:19:47] >> you know, like let's let's be honest [00:19:49] about this. [00:19:50] >> Well, if there's let's just say, and I [00:19:52] think that's a concern for everybody [00:19:53] giving money to charity. It's certainly [00:19:54] a concern for me in general. [00:19:56] >> Yeah. But if there's say a church, the [00:19:59] Church of the Nativity, the one that the [00:20:01] IDF shot people in, [00:20:03] >> yeah, [00:20:04] >> um I've been there and it's kind of [00:20:07] falling apart. And I remember thinking, [00:20:08] why where are the Christians around the [00:20:10] world [00:20:11] >> to support the Church of the Nativity on [00:20:13] the site where Jesus, their savior, was [00:20:15] born. [00:20:15] >> Indeed. And that's why, you know, like [00:20:17] you would [00:20:18] >> I just don't understand that. [00:20:19] >> You know, I I I don't understand that [00:20:20] either. Um but let me tell you something [00:20:23] that you know an example like how [00:20:26] charity starts at home. You know we know [00:20:29] that our king here in Jordan King [00:20:31] Abdullah has donated substantial amount [00:20:34] of money to the repair of the nativity [00:20:37] and the holy supplr and the same thing [00:20:40] happened also partially alo with the [00:20:42] Palestinian authority. Uh and also there [00:20:44] are money that come came also from [00:20:47] partners from Europe and other places as [00:20:49] well. But you know the amount of money [00:20:51] as you said like you know and and the [00:20:52] charity that you think that could be [00:20:55] given to the Christian community to uh [00:20:58] enforce and um you know maintain its [00:21:02] presence in the holy land. You you don't [00:21:04] see that in in ways that you could [00:21:06] imagine that sisters and brothers in [00:21:08] Christ, siblings in Christ around the [00:21:11] world would be giving to their church. [00:21:14] >> When we started this company, we [00:21:15] promised that we would only partner with [00:21:17] other companies that share our values. [00:21:19] is we didn't want to advertise products [00:21:21] made by people who hate us or for that [00:21:23] matter you. So with that in mind, it is [00:21:26] a pleasure to announce that we're [00:21:28] working with Charity Mobile. It is a [00:21:30] prolife phone company. Charity Mobile [00:21:33] holds a view on abortion that almost [00:21:34] every single major US company disagrees [00:21:38] with. They think it's completely wrong. [00:21:40] It is sad and celebrating it is one of [00:21:44] the darkest things this country's ever [00:21:45] done. We agree completely. So, when you [00:21:48] switch your cell phone service to this [00:21:50] American company, they'll donate a [00:21:51] percentage of your monthly price plan to [00:21:53] a pro-life, pro- family charity [music] [00:21:55] that you choose. There's no better way [00:21:58] to prove what their real values are than [00:22:00] doing that. No one would do that unless [00:22:03] they meant it. All their plans are under [00:22:06] 50 bucks, and you can keep your existing [00:22:07] number and your existing phone if it's [00:22:09] compatible. Charity Mobile is a pro-life [00:22:11] company serving pro-life customers and [00:22:13] supporting pro-life causes, and has done [00:22:15] it for more than 30 years. Visit [00:22:17] charitymobile.com/tucker. [00:22:18] Use promo code Tucker to get a free [00:22:20] phone with free activation, free [00:22:22] shipping, and a free gift with every new [00:22:23] line of service. [00:22:24] >> So, I think Americans watching this may [00:22:26] be confused um to hear that a Muslim [00:22:30] king of Jordan. [00:22:32] >> Yes. [00:22:32] >> Is giving money to Christian holy sites. [00:22:35] >> Yes. [00:22:36] >> In Israel and the West Bank. [00:22:38] >> Yeah. [00:22:39] >> Tell us how that arrangement works. [00:22:42] >> Um [00:22:42] >> why would that be a Muslim king's [00:22:44] responsibility? [00:22:45] >> Yeah. So, so there's something here in [00:22:47] the in the holy land has been for a long [00:22:49] time uh what what we call the status quo [00:22:52] or the existing reality uh especially on [00:22:55] holy sites on haram sharif um many [00:22:59] people in the west call it temple mount [00:23:02] um and also in the holy supplr and the [00:23:05] holy sites in Jerusalem [00:23:06] >> the church of holy supplr is the place [00:23:08] where Jesus's tomb [00:23:10] >> yeah which is the the church of the [00:23:12] resurrection what we call in Arabic as [00:23:13] well [00:23:16] Um so um for for a long time the king of [00:23:20] Jordan under the Hashimite custodianship [00:23:23] of holy sites the king personally is the [00:23:25] custodian of holy sites of Christian and [00:23:28] Muslim [clears throat] holy sites in [00:23:30] Jerusalem. [00:23:30] >> So the king of Jordan is the custodian [00:23:34] of both Alexa mosque. [00:23:37] >> Yes. [00:23:37] >> And of the church of the holy supplicer. [00:23:39] >> That's correct. [00:23:40] >> And that remains the case today. that [00:23:43] remains the case today and it will [00:23:45] remain for a long time [00:23:47] >> even though it's extremely difficult for [00:23:48] Jordanians to go the 25 miles over there [00:23:51] to Jerusalem [00:23:53] >> then that's correct so I think you know [00:23:54] like people like myself and the heads of [00:23:56] churches yes as well as alov and the [00:23:59] shakes in Jerusalem we will be the [00:24:01] manifestation of that reality of that [00:24:03] custodianship [00:24:06] >> it's just so interesting why does that [00:24:08] persist today and and is that a good [00:24:10] arrangement the status quo that you [00:24:12] described [00:24:12] >> of Of course, it is it's not only good, [00:24:14] but I think for us, it saves the [00:24:17] character of Jerusalem, where the three [00:24:20] face, both Christianity, Judaism, and [00:24:22] Islam can exist side by side without any [00:24:26] problems. [00:24:27] >> Wouldn't it be easier just to hand the [00:24:28] custodianship over to the government [00:24:30] that runs it, which is the Israeli [00:24:32] government, it's political capitals in [00:24:33] Jerusalem? [00:24:34] >> That will be partial and it will be [00:24:36] exclusive. How how do you think [00:24:38] Christian holy sites would do and Muslim [00:24:41] holy sites would do? You know we we have [00:24:42] we have let me give you an example where [00:24:44] um you know like the holy supplr uh for [00:24:47] different reasons we for long time [00:24:50] during holy Saturday which is the holy [00:24:52] fire one of the most sacred days in the [00:24:55] Christian calendar. [00:24:56] >> Yes. [00:24:57] >> Uh of course this is the night before [00:24:59] Easter. [00:24:59] >> Yes. [00:25:00] >> Um you know the restrictions that the [00:25:02] police there enforce on pilgrims is [00:25:05] unprecedented. You know it's something [00:25:07] that you know we always plea that please [00:25:10] you know let the pilgrims come and [00:25:11] enjoy. [00:25:12] >> Now this is happening [00:25:12] >> now this is happening every year now. [00:25:14] Yes of course last year. [00:25:16] >> So just to be clear the Israeli [00:25:17] government is preventing Christians from [00:25:20] celebrating Easter in Jerusalem [00:25:21] >> you know. Yes, they are preventing uh [00:25:23] Christians and pilgrims to celebrating [00:25:25] Easter you know and the claim is [00:25:27] according to the police there for safety [00:25:30] reasons you know but we telling them [00:25:32] like you know for almost next the church [00:25:35] of the holy supplr is was built in 300 [00:25:37] something okay that's 1700 years ago and [00:25:42] we have always you know celebrated the [00:25:44] holy fire we always celebrated and [00:25:46] welcome Easter we didn't hear of [00:25:49] somebody get banned or somebody They're [00:25:52] Christians. They're not terrorists [00:25:54] >> indeed. And and then but you know now [00:25:56] under the kind of Israeli law for safety [00:25:58] procedures they are restricting the [00:26:00] number of Christians going into the holy [00:26:02] supplr instead of 10,000 they are [00:26:06] restricting that sometimes to 1,500 and [00:26:09] by negotiation you can get them close to [00:26:12] like 3,000. This is by miracle you know [00:26:14] if you can if you're lucky you know [00:26:16] again you know for them for the the to [00:26:18] be to be fair they're saying that for [00:26:21] safety reasons we're not allowing people [00:26:23] in and this is the discussion every [00:26:25] other [00:26:25] >> are there similar restrictions on Jewish [00:26:28] religions observances in Jerusalem [00:26:30] >> h in Israel generally there are been [00:26:32] some there've been an incident in the [00:26:34] north in Meon where people like hassid [00:26:39] community were celebrating a very famous [00:26:41] holy site. [00:26:42] >> Yes. and the bridge collapsed and 150 [00:26:46] people died. [00:26:48] >> Uh and and since that time they were [00:26:50] restricting more and more public worship [00:26:53] and I will tell you an incident as well [00:26:55] you know like where on the mount of Tab [00:26:57] which is the transfiguration mountain [00:26:59] that the holy orthodox the the Orthodox [00:27:01] church celebrates every year. Uh also [00:27:04] there've been restrictions there because [00:27:06] of safety not to allow pilgrims to go to [00:27:08] the holy mountain for the celebration of [00:27:10] transfiguration. This this is the fourth [00:27:12] year in row that they're not allowed to [00:27:16] pilgrim to go up for the celebration [00:27:18] again under safety restrictions. [00:27:20] >> Have there been in the in your lifetime [00:27:24] [clears throat] safety problems with [00:27:27] Christians celebrating Easter in [00:27:28] Jerusalem? [00:27:29] >> Not to my knowledge. [00:27:31] >> So um the US ambassador to Israel, Mike [00:27:34] Huckabe, is a Christian minister. [00:27:37] >> Yeah. What has he done to help [00:27:40] Christians celebrate Easter in [00:27:42] Jerusalem? [00:27:44] >> Um uh we we we are in touch with the um [00:27:48] American embassy uh and we are also [00:27:50] trying to kind of ask Hagabi and also [00:27:52] the staff in the embassy to help the [00:27:54] Christian community uh talk to Israel in [00:27:58] order to enlarge the numbers of people [00:28:00] who celebrate Easter. You know sometimes [00:28:02] they are successful in raising the [00:28:03] number sometimes they are not successful [00:28:05] but but again the issue again this is an [00:28:07] internal matter [00:28:08] >> have you sp [00:28:10] >> right but are ambassadors very involved [00:28:12] in internal matters in Israel of course [00:28:15] um have you spoken to ambassador Huckabe [00:28:19] >> um briefly him from afar you know but [00:28:20] you know other heads of churches have [00:28:22] spoken to him yes [00:28:23] >> but you he hasn't called you [00:28:25] >> he hasn't called me personally no [00:28:28] >> I it's that's have American politicians [00:28:31] called since the US is funding all a lot [00:28:34] of this. Have American politicians, [00:28:36] Christian politicians called to ask you [00:28:38] what they can do to help Christians in [00:28:40] Jerusalem? [00:28:42] >> Um, you know, we reach out, they reach [00:28:44] out, you know, they especially like, you [00:28:45] know, talking about different issues [00:28:47] like let me give you an example. You [00:28:49] know, we I'm trying to kind of get to my [00:28:51] hospital in Gaza, for example. [00:28:53] >> Yes. [00:28:53] >> And I'm trying to kind of get permission [00:28:56] to go there, but I'm not allowed [00:28:58] >> to go to your hospital in Gaza. [00:29:00] >> Yes. [00:29:01] Why? You see, I have an Israeli [00:29:04] citizenship because I come from [00:29:05] Nazareth. So, I'm an Israeli citizen. [00:29:08] >> You are an Israeli. [00:29:09] >> Yeah. Well, yes. And but, you know, at [00:29:11] the same time, so basically, I'm not [00:29:13] allowed in according to their [00:29:15] calculations. [00:29:16] >> Why? [00:29:16] >> So, we I I tried to ask, you know, the [00:29:18] kind of our friends from the American [00:29:20] embassy and other places, you know, in [00:29:22] order to intervene, but the answer is [00:29:25] no. [00:29:26] So Huckabe hasn't helped you get to your [00:29:28] Christian hospital in Gaza. [00:29:30] >> I don't want to blame Hugabe for this, [00:29:32] you know, but again ambassador. [00:29:33] >> No, I know you have to be diplomatic. I [00:29:35] just I'm just surprised that someone [00:29:38] who, [00:29:40] you know, is a minister isn't doing more [00:29:42] for Christians in this region. [00:29:43] >> Yeah. Again, but again, it's it's about [00:29:45] my safety, I guess. [00:29:47] >> Your safety. Would you feel unsafe going [00:29:48] to Gaza? [00:29:49] >> Absolutely not. I've been to Gaza many, [00:29:52] many times. Um and actually 2 days [00:29:55] before the war I was there with the with [00:29:58] bishops you know we visited the hospital [00:30:00] and and I would visit I've been trying [00:30:02] to visit the hospital you know others [00:30:04] were successful like other heads of [00:30:06] churches managed to go there both [00:30:08] patriarchs but uh I haven't [00:30:10] unfortunately it's a Christian hospital [00:30:13] >> it's an Anglican Episcopal [00:30:15] Christian hospital [00:30:16] >> what is the name of it ali Arab hospital [00:30:20] um what what kind of condition is it M [00:30:24] um it is now kind of in a condition that [00:30:26] that operates um on minimal uh capacity. [00:30:31] Um I don't know I'm sure that people [00:30:33] been following I don't know how many [00:30:34] people know about this but it was hit at [00:30:36] least eight times during the war. [00:30:38] >> It was bombed eight times. [00:30:39] >> Yeah. [00:30:40] >> Why? [00:30:42] >> You know there there are different [00:30:43] accusations why did it happened? you [00:30:45] know, a kind of suspects, you know, [00:30:46] suspic suspicion about like uh [00:30:49] activities in the hospital and every [00:30:52] time we asked for people to kind of [00:30:54] prove, you know, what what was happening [00:30:56] there so that we we at least know what [00:30:58] is going on in our hospital. But every [00:31:00] time we we hear nothing. Um and you [00:31:03] know, unfortunately [00:31:04] >> people killed in those bombings, [00:31:05] >> you know, in on two incidents, they've [00:31:07] been two big explosions. The the first [00:31:11] one happened only 2 weeks after the or [00:31:13] even less than 2 weeks from the [00:31:15] beginning on the 17th uh of October 2003 [00:31:20] where a huge rocket fell and it became [00:31:23] like really controversy. Um Israel [00:31:25] accused Islamic Jihad for mis rocketed [00:31:28] missile u you know in Gaza they said no [00:31:32] it was Israeli rocket that came in and [00:31:34] there were two narratives at that time [00:31:36] anyway but this is this is the kind of [00:31:38] thing that we have. [00:31:38] >> Do we know the answer now? No, I don't I [00:31:41] don't know the answer. People asked me [00:31:42] and I said like, "Do I look like a [00:31:44] soldier to you that to tell you what [00:31:45] happened there?" [00:31:46] >> Well, it's your government. You were [00:31:48] born in the country and you can't get a [00:31:49] straight answer about your hospital. [00:31:51] >> No. [00:31:52] >> No. It was the their answer was that you [00:31:54] know it was a mis rocketed missile. [00:31:58] >> But it was bombed seven more times. [00:32:00] >> Yeah. [00:32:01] >> Do we know who did that? [00:32:03] >> No. The other ones, you know, Israelis [00:32:05] did that. They they we didn't comment on [00:32:07] that. [00:32:07] >> Did they not know it was a hospital? [00:32:09] They know it was a hospital. [00:32:10] >> Why would they bomb a hospital, [00:32:13] >> Christian hospital [00:32:14] >> again, you know, but as I said, you [00:32:15] know, they they say when they do that [00:32:18] that there is suspicion of terrorist [00:32:20] activities in the hospital. [00:32:21] >> You can feel these people here. [00:32:23] >> They just came out of the dunes. There's [00:32:24] got to be around 100 of them. And now a [00:32:26] boat's going to try to come around and [00:32:27] pick them up. [00:32:27] >> In a single generation, Europe has [00:32:29] changed forever. This is the result of [00:32:32] decades of mass migration, more than it [00:32:34] has in the last 2,000 years. [00:32:36] >> Wa! Easy, easy, easy. [00:32:37] >> Wo wo wo. We followed one of the [00:32:39] deadliest trade routes on Earth. From [00:32:41] Africa to the Canary Islands to Spain, [00:32:43] France, ending in the UK. In many [00:32:45] cities, natives are now the minority. [00:32:47] This was not an accident. Didn't happen [00:32:48] organically. You're not imagining it. [00:32:50] The governments of Western Europe and [00:32:53] the United States and Canada, New [00:32:54] Zealand, and Australia did this on [00:32:56] purpose to their own people. They opened [00:32:59] their border and they paid for the rest [00:33:00] of the world, the third world, to move [00:33:02] into their countries. [00:33:03] >> This is what happens when you let a [00:33:04] bunch of foreigners completely overtake [00:33:06] your country. Along the way, we [00:33:08] uncovered the entire system of criminal [00:33:10] networks, NOS's, and criminal [music] [00:33:12] governments coordinating together to [00:33:13] destroy the West. [00:33:16] Watch Replacing Europe only on tucker [00:33:19] carlson.com. [00:33:21] >> How many people have been killed in [00:33:23] Gaza? [00:33:25] >> Now, now we know that, you know, I think [00:33:27] I had I just read recently that even the [00:33:30] government admitted that there's 70,000 [00:33:32] who were killed, which they didn't [00:33:34] before. But I I need to kind of again my [00:33:37] sources are are not kind of 100% but at [00:33:40] least from our perspective [00:33:42] um we have heard and we have seen that [00:33:45] there is 70,000 people who were killed [00:33:47] many of them are children and women not [00:33:50] not terrorist according to uh Israeli [00:33:53] categories. [00:33:53] >> Do we have any idea what percentage were [00:33:55] women and children? [00:33:57] >> You know there there are statistics out [00:33:59] there um but I'm sure the vast majority [00:34:02] are women and children. [00:34:05] Is it possible to know who can go to [00:34:08] Gaza at some point? I think it's fair to [00:34:11] ask like what happened over the last [00:34:14] couple of years in Gaza. Are we ever [00:34:15] going to know? [00:34:17] Um you know like you know I'm sure that [00:34:20] we will know in one way or the other. Uh [00:34:23] but again I think the the catastrophe uh [00:34:26] that happened there nothing will heal. [00:34:29] Um I I I just kind of just by seeing the [00:34:33] amount of destruction and death that [00:34:35] happened there uh it just breaks one's [00:34:38] heart you know there are no words and [00:34:40] again you know I'm sure that you know [00:34:41] people will know like who did it and why [00:34:43] they did it and how did it come and you [00:34:45] know but for us you know the the bottom [00:34:47] line there are people who are suffering [00:34:49] there are people who are dying and and [00:34:51] that's the result of violence you know [00:34:53] and uh which is which is devastating for [00:35:00] How are you treated in Israel? [00:35:03] >> Depending where you where you live, [00:35:05] where you are, where you walking. So I [00:35:07] think you know in many places in in in [00:35:09] Israel you are respected. There's [00:35:11] freedom of movement. I can go in most [00:35:13] places. Um there are places are [00:35:15] restricted to any civilian if you know [00:35:17] what I mean. Yes. [00:35:17] >> But you know in general I can go in many [00:35:20] places. [00:35:22] uh you know if if I'm walking in the old [00:35:25] city for example if I'm in my suit all [00:35:28] good and well you know of course the [00:35:29] mosaic is so beautiful there people [00:35:31] living together walking together [00:35:34] >> you would enjoy the souk but sometimes [00:35:36] if I'm wearing my cross and my cassak I [00:35:39] could be treated differently by some [00:35:41] groups [00:35:42] >> how are you treated [00:35:44] >> I could maybe could spat at for example [00:35:46] >> has someone ever spit at you [00:35:48] >> yes [00:35:49] >> really [00:35:50] >> more than once more than once. Yeah. [00:35:54] Why? [00:35:55] I just I think you know I asked this [00:35:58] question why um and in many cases I have [00:36:01] seen that you know like in many um [00:36:05] schools in in the Jewish sector um who [00:36:10] have um this is the answer that I [00:36:12] receive who have um bad flashes of [00:36:16] memories of persecution. The cross [00:36:19] reminds them of u [00:36:22] persecution and expulsion and what have [00:36:25] you. [00:36:25] >> So they're teaching their children that [00:36:27] the cross is a sign of persecution and [00:36:29] to spit on Christians. [00:36:31] >> Yeah. And you know we know that you know [00:36:33] there are so many many um not many but [00:36:35] there are some and these are French [00:36:37] groups that we have as heads of churches [00:36:40] spoke about when when we when there is [00:36:42] vandalism of churches when there is [00:36:45] spitting at clergy when there is doing [00:36:47] nasty things to clergy um [00:36:50] >> what kind of nasty things [00:36:53] kind of uh say that on the air um I [00:36:58] don't know say but they're doing like [00:37:00] really shameful things, you know, in uh [00:37:03] um front of church doors. [00:37:05] >> Really? [00:37:06] >> Yeah. Yeah. And being being caught on [00:37:08] camera many times. [00:37:10] >> Oh, you act like this. Everyone knows [00:37:12] this. I don't think many people in [00:37:14] America know this to Christian churches [00:37:15] and Christian clergy. [00:37:17] >> Yeah. And and again, you know, these are [00:37:19] like French group, people who are [00:37:21] radicals, you know, who live in [00:37:23] Jerusalem. Uh the their main mission is [00:37:27] to purify Jerusalem from infidels, [00:37:29] Christians. [00:37:31] That's that's that's their mission and [00:37:33] they say it out loud. It's on their [00:37:34] website, you know. It's not it's nothing [00:37:36] hidding about. [00:37:37] >> Are you talking about al-Qaeda or [00:37:39] >> No, no, I'm talking about Jewish radical [00:37:41] groups, settler groups. Yeah. [00:37:44] >> Do you face vandalism from Islamic [00:37:47] groups in Jerusalem? [00:37:48] >> No, not to minorities. No, we don't have [00:37:52] we don't have in Jerusalem. [00:37:53] >> Yes. [00:37:54] >> No. [00:37:57] So in the United States after 9/11, we [00:37:59] were told and I think it was true that [00:38:01] there were these madrasas, these [00:38:03] schools, Islamic schools that were [00:38:05] producing radicalism, true radicalism [00:38:08] against the infidel Christians and Jews. [00:38:11] It sounds like something similar is [00:38:12] going on in Jerusalem now and you're the [00:38:14] target of it. Can you talk I mean that's [00:38:16] clearly bad. Can you is there anyone you [00:38:19] can talk to about this? [00:38:21] >> Yeah, we we've talked to the police. to [00:38:23] talk to the government and and there are [00:38:25] restrictions. You know the one thing [00:38:26] about you know this you know that we [00:38:29] were said that told you know that [00:38:31] spitting on people there's not a charge [00:38:33] that we need to have a a law that [00:38:36] forbids this or there will be a kind of [00:38:39] punishment to somebody who spits uh or [00:38:41] something like that. So there there's no [00:38:44] law. So the people brought if you press [00:38:46] charges they bring them in and and they [00:38:49] release the next day. And [00:38:50] >> there's no law in Israel against [00:38:52] spitting on Christians. [00:38:54] >> No, spitting in general, not on [00:38:56] Christians, you know, like [00:38:56] >> but you can walk up and spit in [00:38:58] someone's face for religious reason. [00:38:59] >> That's something different. And the [00:39:00] spitting doesn't happen like you know [00:39:02] directly at you. So like if I'm passing [00:39:04] >> Yeah. [00:39:04] >> and they would be spitting like in front [00:39:06] of you like but it's directed to you but [00:39:09] not on you person. They don't touch you. [00:39:12] They don't touch you. [00:39:14] How common is that? [00:39:19] >> I don't know. I don't have statistics [00:39:20] but [00:39:20] >> No, but in your experience, you live [00:39:22] there. [00:39:23] >> Um quite often, you know, like it [00:39:24] happens, you know, I don't say on daily [00:39:26] basis, but you know, it happens quite [00:39:27] often. Even an an Israeli channel um did [00:39:31] actually one time a kind of a secret [00:39:33] investigation [00:39:35] uh and they dressed somebody in a uh in [00:39:38] a cast with a cross and they walked into [00:39:43] uh the old city with hidden cameras [00:39:47] and you know they they caught one like [00:39:49] right right there on camera uh and then [00:39:52] they they they spoke about it in in [00:39:55] Israeli channels. Good for them. Yeah, [00:39:57] of course. you know they they they name [00:39:58] some sometimes quite often they they [00:40:00] name things but again nothing happens [00:40:03] that's the that's the problem like you [00:40:05] know and that's why we have insisted on [00:40:07] talking about reconciliation and [00:40:09] building trust within the community you [00:40:11] know calling the rabbis and you know the [00:40:13] imams and the Christian leaders you know [00:40:16] to uh teach their children about [00:40:19] tolerance about acceptance [00:40:22] uh and uh to refrain from incitement [00:40:25] >> you know and exclusion and alien nation [00:40:27] and demonizing the other. No, Jerusalem [00:40:30] is such a beautiful place. It's it's a [00:40:32] sacred place. [00:40:32] >> Yes, it is. [00:40:33] >> But we have you know like groups and [00:40:36] talking about you know like you know uh [00:40:39] extremist you know like in every [00:40:40] religion there is extremist [00:40:42] >> of course [00:40:42] >> and we're not saying that you know like [00:40:43] only one um our Christian history is not [00:40:47] you know like um neither clear or pure [00:40:51] of [00:40:51] >> we've had some Christian extremists for [00:40:53] sure [00:40:53] >> indeed. Um but you know that's why you [00:40:55] know today I think in the 21st century [00:40:58] it's important that we um [00:41:02] reconsider a lot of our views even as [00:41:05] religious people how we view other [00:41:07] people around us. [00:41:08] >> Yes. [00:41:09] >> And I wish that's my prayer you know we [00:41:11] have always said you know like the holy [00:41:14] land uh the Middle East Christians [00:41:17] Muslims and Jews live together here for [00:41:19] centuries. Yes, [00:41:21] >> this is not something that new that we [00:41:22] trying to understand to how to live [00:41:24] together or how to manage our [00:41:26] relationships, [00:41:27] >> you know, but you know, unfortunately, [00:41:30] I don't want to kind of accuse anybody, [00:41:32] but outside forces have caused us to [00:41:35] fight among ourselves. [00:41:37] >> I've noticed unfortunately that's what [00:41:39] that's how. [00:41:39] >> So, has the extremism in Jerusalem I [00:41:42] mean just to restate, you were born in [00:41:44] in the state of Israel. you're an [00:41:46] Israeli citizen so you would know over [00:41:48] has it become [00:41:50] more pronounced is there more extremism [00:41:52] now do you think in [00:41:53] >> there's more extremism extremism uh and [00:41:56] I can see and that's on on every side [00:42:00] >> that happens you see the thing that you [00:42:02] know the more you have extremist group [00:42:04] on one side of course [00:42:05] >> the more you have the response of other [00:42:06] extremists on the other side so it [00:42:08] happens [00:42:09] >> all across the uh the the communities [00:42:12] unfortunately [00:42:13] >> but right now it seems like there is no [00:42:15] Christian extremism. I haven't seen any [00:42:17] Christian terrorism groups here. [00:42:19] >> I wouldn't say like terrorist groups [00:42:21] Christian, but you know there are some [00:42:22] who have extremist views. [00:42:24] >> Yes, we we see pockets coming up every [00:42:27] now and then. [00:42:27] >> I'm sure. [00:42:28] >> Uh but we as heads of churches always [00:42:30] say and talk to our children. Um you [00:42:33] know you don't forget that you are [00:42:35] Christian. Uh and you have to abide by [00:42:38] our Christian faith. um you know like [00:42:41] anything any engagement in violence or [00:42:44] military or inment is something that not [00:42:46] speak about our um identity or our [00:42:50] faith. [00:42:50] >> Do Christians serve in the IDF? [00:42:53] There are very very few who do. [00:42:56] >> It's not not many. [00:42:58] >> Why? [00:42:59] >> Why they do serve? [00:43:00] >> Why? Why don't they serve? [00:43:01] >> No, because you were born a citizen. [00:43:03] >> They see they see themselves as um uh [00:43:06] first of all, it's not compulsory for [00:43:07] them. [00:43:08] >> Huh? [00:43:08] >> So, it's not compulsory for Arab [00:43:10] citizens of Israel to serve in the army [00:43:13] and therefore they don't. Um but there [00:43:16] are very few who do. Um and again you [00:43:18] know let's remember that the Arabs [00:43:21] inside Israel they are Palestinians [00:43:24] uh by origin at least they are [00:43:26] Palestinians you know and and imagine [00:43:28] like you know I I served Nablas which is [00:43:34] in the West Bank I don't know the city [00:43:35] in the northern part of West Bank [00:43:37] >> and I was responsible for two [00:43:39] congregations there and I got married [00:43:40] from Nabas so my wife is Palestinian [00:43:44] um and imagine like you know if if I you [00:43:48] know I would be like a soldier uh in the [00:43:51] West Bank rather than a priest in the [00:43:53] West Bank uh how would I treat my own [00:43:57] people [00:43:59] like it doesn't make sense you know for [00:44:01] me it's uh just to think about the [00:44:04] matter is just kind of makes me uh I [00:44:07] don't know f maybe [00:44:09] >> what's happening a lot of attention in [00:44:10] the United States has been paid to Gaza [00:44:12] some attention [00:44:14] >> um what's happening in the West bank [00:44:18] in the West Bank. I think you know um [00:44:20] and we have seen over the past few weeks [00:44:23] especially um and actually not only a [00:44:26] few weeks you know during even during [00:44:28] the war uh the escalation of violence uh [00:44:31] of settlers in the West Bank has risen [00:44:35] drastically [00:44:37] and and um not only to um [00:44:41] kind of Muslim neighborhoods and [00:44:43] villages but also to Christian villages [00:44:46] >> really. Yeah. you know, [00:44:48] >> can you give me an example? [00:44:50] >> Uh, yeah, I can give you example of the [00:44:52] two recent examples is one in in the [00:44:54] town of Taibbe [00:44:56] um where actually you mentioned the [00:45:00] ambassador Hakabe. He himself went there [00:45:02] to visit the village after these attacks [00:45:06] uh of settlers burning and graffiti on [00:45:09] walls and uh going into these farms to [00:45:12] harass uh farmers who are Christian. And [00:45:16] recently also in Beret near Ramla where [00:45:20] we had an attack of settlers on a woman. [00:45:22] They hit her with a stone in the head [00:45:24] and and then they arrested her son after [00:45:26] that. [00:45:27] >> Why did they arrest her son? [00:45:29] >> Cuz he tried to defend like his mother [00:45:33] and because of that you know he he was [00:45:36] arrested [00:45:37] >> and these are Christians. [00:45:39] >> Yeah. Yeah. He's Christian. How many uh [00:45:43] US administration officials weighed in [00:45:46] on this? Did go did Ambassador Huckabe [00:45:48] say anything about this? [00:45:49] >> No, he he definitely said something [00:45:51] about Taibbe. I haven't seen anything [00:45:54] about the last incident, but uh he went [00:45:56] there in person actually and visited the [00:45:58] place, [00:45:58] >> but the most recent attack where a [00:46:00] Christian woman was attacked by settlers [00:46:02] with a rock to the head and her son was [00:46:04] arrested for trying to defend her. [00:46:05] Ambassador Huckabe hasn't said anything [00:46:07] about that. I I I didn't see anything [00:46:09] myself, but he would you would know [00:46:11] since you're the archbishop in [00:46:12] Jerusalem, I think. [00:46:14] >> Um I'm sorry. I just want to I I just [00:46:17] want to be very clear about his shameful [00:46:19] anti-Christian behavior. I just want to [00:46:21] be very clear about what I'm saying. [00:46:22] What Ambassador Huckabe is doing is [00:46:24] shameful and he's going to have to [00:46:25] answer for it. So that's my opinion. You [00:46:27] don't have to ratify that. Um but it's [00:46:30] shocking to me. So more broadly, why [00:46:34] would these attacks be accelerating? Why [00:46:36] would there be more attacks now? [00:46:39] >> No, I think the less the IDF and the [00:46:42] Israeli government [00:46:44] um persecutes those who do these uh [00:46:47] shameful uh actions which I called evil [00:46:50] and sin actually [00:46:52] >> of course [00:46:53] >> um the more they do um that's that's the [00:46:57] norm unfortunately. Let me uh just close [00:46:59] by contrasting your experience in your [00:47:02] country, Israel, where you live, with [00:47:06] the experience in Jordan. Are there [00:47:09] attacks on Christians in Jordan? [00:47:12] >> That question makes me laugh, first of [00:47:14] all. You know, like, [00:47:15] >> well, in the United States, we we're [00:47:16] told that Christians are murdered in the [00:47:18] Middle East by Muslims. This is a [00:47:21] country run by a Muslim king. Um and so [00:47:24] I'm just it would be interesting to know [00:47:25] how how many Christians are driven off [00:47:28] their land here. [00:47:30] um you know they quite quite often you [00:47:31] know I see on the TV um or even in uh in [00:47:36] many reports you know many people when [00:47:38] they see us in the streets sometimes a [00:47:40] few people who see us in the streets [00:47:41] sometimes in in Jerusalem or other [00:47:43] places they will tell us as Arabs please [00:47:48] go to [00:47:50] Syria go to Jordan go to why you staying [00:47:54] here they they tell they ask us this [00:47:56] question [00:47:58] you What? [00:47:59] >> To you? [00:47:59] >> Yeah. To me and and to others, you know, [00:48:01] any Arab. Many people would say like why [00:48:04] why you staying here? Like just go to an [00:48:06] Arab country. [00:48:06] >> They say that to your face. [00:48:08] >> Yeah. They would say that to my face. Um [00:48:10] and and and you know like honestly [00:48:13] speaking uh you know sometimes you know [00:48:16] and I'm saying that sarcastically of [00:48:17] course um you know I think about it and [00:48:20] I think they are right because you know [00:48:21] when I come to Jordan I feel more at [00:48:24] home than being in other places inside [00:48:26] you know in my own home country [00:48:28] honestly. [00:48:30] >> How long has your family been in Jesus's [00:48:33] hometown of Nazareth? [00:48:36] for I you know I I I I wish I have my [00:48:39] family tree goes going back to the time [00:48:41] of Jesus but I I think you know uh you [00:48:44] remind me of a question if I may [00:48:45] paraphrase your your your question. He [00:48:47] said [00:48:48] >> when people I I tell people that I'm [00:48:50] Christian from Nazareth [00:48:52] uh and they tell me oh nice this is [00:48:55] really cool so when were you converted [00:48:58] so I tell them 2,000 years ago. That's [00:49:01] that's that's my answer like you know [00:49:03] you know know come on Christianity [00:49:04] started in in places like the baptism [00:49:08] site here like Bethlehem like Nazareth [00:49:11] where the angel appeared to Mary [00:49:14] >> Jesus is from Nazareth [00:49:15] >> he is from Nazareth Mary is from Naz but [00:49:18] you know so that that's it's it's [00:49:19] ignorance again it's ignorance and [00:49:22] sometimes it's deliberate intentional [00:49:23] [snorts] [00:49:24] ignorance even [00:49:26] >> it's all pretty amazing does that happen [00:49:28] to you in when you're in Jordan because [00:49:30] there are of There's holy sites here. [00:49:31] We're at one right now. [00:49:34] >> You know, again, I said like I I feel I [00:49:37] feel blessed where I am. Uh when I [00:49:40] travel in my own dasis, I go to Lebanon. [00:49:43] I come here to Jordan, my other home. [00:49:46] I'm also a Jordanian. I consider myself [00:49:49] a Jordanian citizen. Um by virtue of [00:49:52] being responsible in this place for my [00:49:54] community. But honestly speaking like [00:49:57] whenever I come to this place Jordan, [00:50:00] Lebanon even I feel like you know this [00:50:03] is my home. I feel myself [00:50:06] like fulfilled because I know that I'm [00:50:09] I'm free in this country. I can be [00:50:11] myself without being worrying that I [00:50:13] will be um spat at or or [00:50:17] >> But Jordan is 98% Muslim. [00:50:20] >> Yes. [00:50:20] >> But you feel freer here. [00:50:22] >> I feel Yeah, of course. at the at this [00:50:26] point in time. Yes, I do. Free. [00:50:32] >> Do you have a message to Christians in [00:50:35] the United States? [00:50:36] >> No, I have a message. Yes. To say that, [00:50:39] you know, uh my dear sisters and [00:50:41] brothers uh in Christ and in humanity. [00:50:45] No, I I want you to think about these [00:50:47] places as treasures. Now these places, [00:50:51] Jordan, Palestine, you know, the Galilee [00:50:55] inside what Israel today, these are [00:50:58] places that actually embraced uh the [00:51:01] descent and the incarnation of our faith [00:51:03] as Christians. [00:51:05] We need to preserve these places. We [00:51:07] need to support the people here. Not [00:51:09] only Christians, I'm not saying like we [00:51:11] need to be only looking at Christians, [00:51:13] but supporting people who live here [00:51:14] because your support, you know, ensures [00:51:17] the character of these places to be a [00:51:20] safe home for all the people who live [00:51:22] here, whether they are Jews, Christians, [00:51:25] Muslims. That's right. Because we are [00:51:27] all God's children. We have been living [00:51:28] to together here for a long time. And [00:51:31] please, you know, I just want to say a [00:51:33] small example. If you want to pray for [00:51:36] whoever whom your heart loves, okay? H [00:51:40] please don't divide us by your prayers. [00:51:43] Don't further divide us by your prayers. [00:51:45] We want you to pray for all the people [00:51:46] of the holy land. [00:51:49] Thank you, Archbishop. I appreciate it. [00:51:51] Thank you very much. Sad. Thank you for [00:51:53] for doing this. One of the reasons I [00:51:55] wanted to talk to you was even I was [00:51:57] amazed to discover how many prominent [00:52:00] like truly prominent Christian families [00:52:02] there are in Jordan. uh a lot and you're [00:52:05] from one of the most prominent. What's [00:52:07] it like to be a Christian in an [00:52:09] overwhelmingly Muslim country here? [00:52:12] >> Well, you know, Christians here in [00:52:13] Jordan have always felt, you know, [00:52:14] really one and the same with the Muslims [00:52:16] in in Jordan and it goes back thousands [00:52:20] of years. Uh really, Tucker. Uh so it's [00:52:23] always felt like we're really one and [00:52:24] the same. Islam is very much an integral [00:52:26] part of our culture as Christians here. [00:52:30] Yeah, we feel very comfortable here. [00:52:32] >> As Christians, absolutely. [00:52:34] So, you went to school um a number of [00:52:36] very prominent schools in the United [00:52:38] States. You spent a lot of time living [00:52:39] in the US. So, you know that most [00:52:42] Americans are going to be surprised to [00:52:44] hear that. [00:52:44] >> Oh, of course. I mean, you know, a lot [00:52:47] of my American friends when I when I [00:52:49] first met them, they were surprised [00:52:50] that, you know, I'm Christian from [00:52:52] Jordan. And uh I'm like, what do you [00:52:55] mean? I mean, this is where Christianity [00:52:57] started, right? This is we are the [00:52:59] ancient Christians. [00:53:00] >> Yes. [00:53:01] >> It's a bit upsetting for me. Jesus was [00:53:02] baptized right there. [00:53:04] >> Right here. Uh I mean this is a very [00:53:07] special place, the the baptism site. [00:53:10] It's very close to our hearts as [00:53:12] Christians, not just here but all over [00:53:14] the world. And um [00:53:17] >> I can I can I say a little bit something [00:53:19] about this site because we're here at [00:53:21] Tucker. [00:53:21] >> Yeah. So this this baptism site I mean [00:53:24] what what most Christians around the [00:53:26] world maybe sometimes forget is here we [00:53:29] have the clearest manifestation [00:53:32] uh in the Bible of the Holy Trinity [00:53:34] right here at Tucker where you and I are [00:53:37] today. You know, if you remember from [00:53:38] the Bible, the voice of God. [00:53:39] >> Yes. [00:53:40] >> And he said, you know, this is when [00:53:42] Jesus be was being baptized by St. John. [00:53:44] >> This is uh my son of whom I am well [00:53:46] pleased. I think [00:53:47] >> yes. [00:53:48] >> And then the uh the son, right, the holy [00:53:52] spirit in the in the shape descends in [00:53:54] the shape of a dove. This happened here [00:53:57] and Christ's official mission, right, [00:54:00] started in Jordan. So you can actually [00:54:03] make the claim, this is not, you know, [00:54:06] this is a biblical theological claim [00:54:08] that the mission of Christianity, [00:54:10] salvation history started right here. So [00:54:13] of course there are Christians in Jordan [00:54:15] and um it's just a very special place to [00:54:17] be. I hope you've had it some time to [00:54:19] >> I've had an amazing time. I've been I've [00:54:21] been to this country before and I and [00:54:22] I've always felt comfortable here. Um, [00:54:26] and if you say that in the West people [00:54:29] are either incredulous or they accuse [00:54:31] you of being a secret Muslim or shihad [00:54:34] or something, which I'm not uh at all, [00:54:36] but I'm really struck that you said [00:54:39] Islam is an integral part of the culture [00:54:42] for Christians here. What does that [00:54:44] mean? [00:54:45] >> Well, look, it's um the faith traditions [00:54:47] are so similar. [00:54:50] Um it's it's uh it's remarkable. I mean [00:54:54] you know if if you look at the Quran for [00:54:55] example um the Quran is a is um Jesus [00:55:00] was mentioned 25 plus times in the [00:55:02] Quran. Um and he was mentioned uh under [00:55:04] different words uh different names. So [00:55:07] Isa is is what the his name is in [00:55:10] Arabic. um the word of God [00:55:15] that's actually from the Quran the [00:55:17] Messiah al- Mia that's also Iben Mariam [00:55:21] son of Miam [00:55:23] uh the other thing that you might find [00:55:25] interesting is also the Virgin Mary [00:55:28] right I mean she was mentioned 30 plus [00:55:30] times in the Quran she's revered right [00:55:34] actually she was the only woman whose [00:55:37] name was actually mentioned in the Quran [00:55:40] no other name of a woman has many I mean [00:55:42] there there was [00:55:44] >> absolutely Miam's is the only name [00:55:46] that's uh named by name in the Quran as [00:55:49] a woman [00:55:50] >> as the mother of Jesus [00:55:51] >> as the mother of Jesus um there is a [00:55:54] whole chapter in the Quran just uh [00:55:57] dedicated uh for the Virgin Mary so you [00:56:01] can see and of course the same the same [00:56:03] prophets many of the same prophets [00:56:05] whether it's Elijah or Moses or Abraham [00:56:09] or you know they're in the Quran um as [00:56:13] they are in the uh you know the New [00:56:15] Testament and the Old Testament. So [00:56:17] >> the faith traditions are very similar. [00:56:19] So that's why the Muslims are actually [00:56:22] very accepting of the Christian faith [00:56:25] traditions. They are encompassing of the [00:56:26] Christian faith traditions. So yeah, I [00:56:29] mean we [00:56:30] >> And you're saying this as a Christian? [00:56:31] >> I'm saying this as a as a Christian here [00:56:33] in Jordan. Absolutely. [00:56:36] >> I'm at a disadvantage because I have not [00:56:37] read the Quran. I'll just say that. Um, [00:56:40] but we have been taught for 25 years [00:56:42] since 9/11 that Islam is inherently [00:56:46] hostile to Christianity. But you don't [00:56:48] believe that? [00:56:49] >> I totally disagree with that. I think [00:56:52] hostility is uh, you know, is a human [00:56:56] thing. [00:56:57] >> Yes. [00:56:57] >> You know, you find uh, humans on all [00:57:00] sides of the spectrum that are, you [00:57:03] know, compassionate or hostile. That's a [00:57:05] common thing across humanity, across the [00:57:07] world. But to demonize one religion, to [00:57:10] say everyone in that religion is hostile [00:57:12] is is an atrocity. Tucker, it's [00:57:15] absolutely not true. [00:57:16] >> I agree with [00:57:18] >> Did you experience discrimination [00:57:19] growing up here as a Christian? [00:57:21] >> Never. I've never felt discriminated [00:57:23] against as a Christian. Uh, of course [00:57:26] there's people that don't sometimes [00:57:28] understand Christian religious tradition [00:57:31] and there are sometimes questions and [00:57:32] there are sometimes theological of [00:57:34] course differences and you know you can [00:57:36] have a discussion about that and argue [00:57:38] about that right but discrimination in [00:57:41] terms of you know I feel at a [00:57:44] disadvantage to be Christian here. [00:57:46] Absolutely not. No. So your family I I [00:57:49] think I understand this is at the level [00:57:52] of prominence that you're going to have [00:57:53] to deal with the government at a certain [00:57:55] point. Yeah. Okay. [00:57:56] >> Of course. Yeah. [00:57:57] >> This is a small country. It's a [00:57:58] monarchy. [00:57:59] >> You've never had any problems dealing [00:58:00] with the government as a Christian? [00:58:02] >> No. No. Actually, that's a that's a [00:58:04] great question. Um so Christians are [00:58:08] very well represented here as you can [00:58:09] imagine. It's they're really part of the [00:58:11] the social uh fabric of the economy and [00:58:15] uh the political environment. So [00:58:17] Christians are represented you know in [00:58:18] the Senate, in parliament, uh in [00:58:21] government, in the military, in the [00:58:24] private sector, even though we are a [00:58:26] minority, right? But the representation [00:58:28] is is everywhere. Uh [00:58:30] >> you're a tiny minority, right? [00:58:32] >> We are like probably 2 3% at this stage. [00:58:36] >> I'm just guessing, but it seems like if [00:58:39] you're 2 or 3% of the population, you [00:58:41] you seem disproportionately represented [00:58:44] among the affluent. Um possibly I think [00:58:47] maybe minorities everywhere around the [00:58:49] world that's the case. [00:58:49] >> Yes, it is actually that is true if you [00:58:51] think about it right. Uh [00:58:54] >> but uh I don't know I've never measured [00:58:56] that. I don't know if there are [00:58:57] statistics [00:58:57] >> but that's never been a problem I guess [00:58:59] because you do see minority groups [00:59:02] around the world as you said [00:59:04] >> you know the Indians in Uganda in the [00:59:05] 70s or name a group but the minority [00:59:07] group [00:59:08] >> often is disproportionately successful [00:59:11] and then they are persecuted for that [00:59:13] right and that has not happened here. [00:59:14] No, no, absolutely not. And there's a [00:59:18] reason I think it's why it's it is um [00:59:21] I'll tell you I mean I mean I was [00:59:23] thinking about sort of why is Jordan a [00:59:25] special sort of uh model for that right [00:59:28] of coexistence of interfaith harmony. I [00:59:32] think there's three things uh Tucker and [00:59:34] if these three things are there [00:59:37] you know Christian minorities in the [00:59:39] Holy Land they will they will thrive. Uh [00:59:42] number one is we have constitutional [00:59:44] rights as equal citizens. It's in the [00:59:46] Jordanian constitution. [00:59:48] Um you know so Christians and Muslims [00:59:51] here have the same rights complete [00:59:54] equality. Uh when it comes to even uh [00:59:57] matters relating to Christian affairs [00:59:59] whether it's marriages and you know you [01:00:01] know even some civil affairs there are [01:00:03] Christian courts that are different from [01:00:05] the Sharia courts that there are for [01:00:07] Muslims. So there's in that sense [01:00:09] there's you know this sort of [01:00:10] coexistence. But when it comes to of [01:00:12] course civil and commercial and all of [01:00:13] all those kinds of laws, those apply to [01:00:16] all of us equally here in Jordan. So [01:00:19] constitutional rights are protected. [01:00:21] That's number one. [01:00:22] >> So this is not so Christianity is an [01:00:24] official religion here. [01:00:25] >> Absolutely. I mean yeah there's in the [01:00:27] constitution there's freedom of worship [01:00:30] uh freedom of of religion in the [01:00:31] constitution. So this is so very [01:00:33] importantly if you want to protect [01:00:35] Christian minorities or any minority in [01:00:37] that regard anywhere in the world [01:00:39] constitutional rights have to be [01:00:40] established and they're establishing [01:00:42] they were established here from the very [01:00:44] start right um you know when the uh the [01:00:47] Jordanian tribes and the hashemites [01:00:49] agreed to form uh the constitution and [01:00:52] uh they've been there since then so I [01:00:55] would say that's the one the first thing [01:00:56] the second thing which I really think is [01:00:59] important is stability [01:01:01] >> yeah Right. And the moment you um you [01:01:05] don't have stability, the first to [01:01:07] suffer are the minorities. Are [01:01:09] >> the weak of course [01:01:09] >> are the weak. [01:01:11] >> And you know stability is so important. [01:01:13] Economic stability, political stability, [01:01:15] security stability. Uh that's why it's [01:01:18] so sacred actually to to to ensure that [01:01:20] there is stability in the region. I [01:01:23] would say the last thing I um his [01:01:26] leadership you know we're very fortunate [01:01:29] here to have you know his majesty king [01:01:31] Abland the Hasheite leadership I mean [01:01:33] truly really tremendously fortunate [01:01:36] because the Hashemites have always been [01:01:38] about interfaith dialogue discourse [01:01:41] meritocracy compassion uh mercy so I [01:01:45] think when you have you know great [01:01:46] leadership stability and constitutional [01:01:49] rights yeah Christian minority can [01:01:52] thrive. And that's what we have here. [01:01:54] >> It's and my job is not to talk of [01:01:57] Jordan, but I've always wondered and all [01:02:01] of your neighbors I've spent time in all [01:02:02] of your your neighboring countries [01:02:04] always say the same thing. How do you [01:02:05] have this country with really no energy [01:02:07] resources? It's not inherently rich. [01:02:10] >> Yeah. [01:02:11] >> Absorb all these refugees from the [01:02:13] creation of Israel in 1948. I mean, [01:02:16] enormous number. And then lose a huge [01:02:18] part of its territory in ' 67. absorbed [01:02:20] more refugees and then absorbed still [01:02:23] more refugees through the years, [01:02:25] including from the civil war in Syria [01:02:28] and now apparently are being pushed to [01:02:31] absorb still more refugees from Gaza. [01:02:34] >> I don't think any country's ever been [01:02:35] under this kind of pressure. This is for [01:02:37] the outsider perspective anyway. How do [01:02:39] you stay stable in the middle of all of [01:02:40] that? [01:02:41] >> That's a great question. I honestly, [01:02:43] Tucker, I I ask myself that all the [01:02:46] time. Um, and I think, you know, part of [01:02:49] the answer is it's just the culture. The [01:02:52] culture here, it's a very collectivist [01:02:54] culture. It's a very tribal culture. Um, [01:02:57] you know, for example, uh, the latest [01:03:00] immigration of Syrian refugees. We had, [01:03:02] I think, up to 1.5 million Syrian [01:03:05] refugees during the Arab Spring. [01:03:07] >> This is a small country, isn't it? [01:03:09] >> Yeah. That's on a per basis. It's like [01:03:11] 40 million people moving into the US [01:03:13] overnight, right? [01:03:15] And that's the scale of the I mean, can [01:03:17] you imagine 40 million people all of [01:03:19] Canada moving into the US looking for [01:03:21] jobs, right? [laughter] [01:03:23] >> I'm laughing, but and I should say for [01:03:25] people who don't follow this because [01:03:26] it's it's a boutique question. There's a [01:03:28] lot going on in the world. But this is [01:03:29] interesting to me. This is all because [01:03:32] of your geographic location. It's like [01:03:33] you didn't ask for this. You just happen [01:03:35] to be surrounded by these larger powers [01:03:37] that [01:03:38] >> decide they can use your country as like [01:03:40] a place to store the products of their [01:03:42] wars. [01:03:42] >> Yeah. I mean, it's because it's stable. [01:03:44] So, we, you know, people say, you know, [01:03:47] just move it to uh to Jordan and let [01:03:49] them deal with it. And to be honest, [01:03:51] it's been difficult because the host [01:03:53] community, the Jordanians, I mean, [01:03:55] they've had to share resources with the [01:03:57] refugees. They've had to share jobs. You [01:04:00] know, we have very limited resources as [01:04:02] Zucker, be they financial, water [01:04:04] resources, energy resources. You know, [01:04:08] >> I've sidetracked my own question. So the [01:04:10] original question was how do you absorb [01:04:12] more refugees over the past 80 years [01:04:15] than you have people? [01:04:17] >> Yeah. [01:04:17] >> A lot more and not fall apart. [01:04:21] >> Um look a lot of it is again Hashemite [01:04:26] leadership. Uh it's it's uh taking care [01:04:30] of refugees using our limited resources [01:04:32] to support them. And my understanding is [01:04:35] we especially with the last sort of [01:04:37] Syrian refugees we had a lot of support [01:04:39] from the international community in the [01:04:41] beginning but over times you know that [01:04:44] there's donor fatigue over time u you [01:04:46] know the news moves on [01:04:49] >> right [01:04:50] >> and then the the host community is stuck [01:04:52] with the problem and then we have to [01:04:54] depend on our own resources and [01:04:55] obviously a lot of it is just honestly [01:04:58] uh us it's uh local tax revenue [01:05:01] government support we of course we do [01:05:03] some support still from international [01:05:05] donors, from the US government, um from [01:05:08] other places around the world. So, we're [01:05:09] grateful for that. But yeah, it's um [01:05:12] it's it's tempting to uh to let the host [01:05:15] community deal with this problem because [01:05:16] sort of the the news cycle has moved on [01:05:19] to something else and that's a problem. [01:05:21] It [01:05:22] >> it's a question I'm interested in [01:05:23] because for from the American [01:05:26] perspective, our country feels swamped [01:05:27] with refugees. [01:05:28] >> Yeah. Um but no country maybe in history [01:05:32] has been a swamp by refugees as yours. [01:05:33] So it's just interesting to see how [01:05:34] you've handled it. [01:05:35] >> Yeah. No, I mean I think people feel [01:05:38] very much like you know the refugees [01:05:40] coming in here uh there's this moral [01:05:44] sort of uh you know understanding that [01:05:48] we have to take care of our own and um [01:05:52] just to give you a story maybe from [01:05:54] Jordan's history if you want to go back [01:05:55] even to the time of the earliest [01:05:57] Christians right because we're the [01:05:59] ancient Christians right so we we [01:06:00] remember these stories one of the [01:06:01] Christian holy sites here in Jordan is [01:06:04] called Pella I don't know if you Bella. [01:06:06] So that was a a city in the old Roman [01:06:08] decapus, right? [01:06:11] >> The 10 the the the 10 cities that [01:06:13] referred to in the New Testament. [01:06:14] >> Referred to in the New Testament. [01:06:15] Exactly. So, uh Pella is in Jordan. It's [01:06:18] a beautiful site. It's well preserved. [01:06:20] Um that was the the site of the first [01:06:24] Christian refugees coming out of [01:06:25] Jerusalem. [01:06:27] Um you know, before Jerusalem was [01:06:30] destroyed in 70 AD by General Titus. [01:06:33] >> Yes. you know, all of the the Christians [01:06:35] moved to Bella. Actually, it's [01:06:37] technically arguably, right, according [01:06:39] to archaeology, the first Christian [01:06:42] refugee haven, and that's in Jordan. And [01:06:44] I think this is this has been our [01:06:46] history. [laughter] [01:06:47] >> That's I did not know that. [01:06:48] >> Yeah, we're the land of refugees. Uh we [01:06:51] are very much the lander of refugees [01:06:54] and um yeah, that's a nice story. And [01:06:56] it's the same when with with the Iraq [01:06:58] and I think when we when we talk about [01:07:00] you know the Iraqi refugees as well a [01:07:02] while back Muslim and Christian moved [01:07:04] here and going back to sort of the point [01:07:08] on on stability uh uh Tucker. So [01:07:12] you know when you have there was US [01:07:14] intervention as you recalled in Iraq at [01:07:16] the time. [01:07:17] >> I do recall that. Yes. [laughter] Yeah. [01:07:19] I heard about that [01:07:21] >> at the time of Saddam Hussein. And then [01:07:23] the thing is whenever you lose uh [01:07:25] whenever sort of there's a vacuum that [01:07:27] vacuum is always filled and sometimes [01:07:30] it's filled with you know bad elements. [01:07:32] So al Qaeda filled that vacuum in Iraq [01:07:35] after 2003 [01:07:37] and then you had which then of course [01:07:39] later became ISIS right down the line. [01:07:42] So all of a sudden you had Muslim and [01:07:44] Christians uh who were targeted. A lot [01:07:47] of them came into Jordan [01:07:50] and um you know I know a a priest uh he [01:07:55] specializes in really taking care of the [01:07:57] especially both Muslim and Christian [01:07:59] refugees by the way. There's no [01:08:01] selectivity there. Um they are here [01:08:05] temporarily. They see themselves as [01:08:07] being here temporarily until they can [01:08:08] immigrate to other parts of the world. [01:08:11] So they get receive financial [01:08:13] assistance, uh, schooling, a lot of it [01:08:15] is provided either by the state or even [01:08:18] fundraised by the churches, the local [01:08:20] churches until they are able to [01:08:22] immigrate to other parts of the world [01:08:24] where there's more economic prosperity [01:08:26] and and stability and jobs. [01:08:28] >> So you're a Christian, you are 25 miles [01:08:31] away from the most famous and important [01:08:33] church in Christendom, and you've been [01:08:35] one time in 50 years. Yeah, I need I [01:08:38] mean obviously it's um first of all I I [01:08:41] can't just go there. I need a visa uh as [01:08:43] a Jordanian. It's something that you you [01:08:45] have to apply for and um [01:08:48] >> how hard is it to get? [01:08:51] >> Yeah, it's a process and you have to [01:08:53] apply. It's um I I can't recall how [01:08:56] difficult it was to get the visa at the [01:08:57] time, but also you know there's some [01:09:00] security considerations. [01:09:01] >> What does that mean? I mean I you know [01:09:05] you know you see what's happening there [01:09:07] now. How comfortable would Christians be [01:09:10] or non-Christians even visiting the holy [01:09:13] sites now in [01:09:15] >> I'm totally confused. Those holy sites [01:09:17] don't belong to the state of Israel [01:09:18] which is a political entity of very [01:09:20] recent creation. Those holy sites are [01:09:22] the center of our religion. [01:09:24] They long predate by thousands of years [01:09:28] the creation of the state of Israel. Why [01:09:30] wouldn't Christians, any Christian have [01:09:32] a right to visit his own church? [01:09:34] >> Yeah, I agree. It's [01:09:36] >> that's my perspective as the person [01:09:37] who's paying for all this. So, [01:09:38] >> I agree with you. I think I think [01:09:39] there's an angle I'd like to focus on on [01:09:42] here. So, [01:09:44] >> um [01:09:45] >> you know, the Hashem are the very much [01:09:48] the custodians of the Christian and the [01:09:50] Muslim sites in Jerusalem. And I think [01:09:53] maybe that if you allow me Tucker, I [01:09:55] think that's something that people don't [01:09:57] don't realize is that a lot of the [01:10:00] restoration work that happens there is [01:10:02] very much funded personally by the king. [01:10:05] I mean the tomb of Jesus Christ in the [01:10:07] holy supplr was restored by personal [01:10:10] donations from King uh Abdullah. And it [01:10:14] it says something. [01:10:15] >> What? [01:10:15] >> Absolutely. Yeah. [01:10:17] >> The tomb of Jesus was restored by the [01:10:19] Muslim king of Jordan. [01:10:20] >> Yeah. I mean, know the king of Jordan. [01:10:22] >> It's kind of a surprise ending to the [01:10:23] story, I have to say. [laughter] [01:10:26] >> He's a direct descendant of the prophet [01:10:28] Muhammad, right? And he's the one [01:10:30] restoring the tomb of Jesus Christ. And [01:10:33] I think that's a this interfaith story. [01:10:36] >> That's that's true. [01:10:37] >> It is true. Uh there's another story on [01:10:40] the church of the Holy Spir. I think [01:10:42] it's um I mean it shows you just how old [01:10:45] these traditions are in the region and [01:10:47] how welcoming it used to be to people [01:10:49] from all across all faiths be they [01:10:52] Jewish or Christian or Muslim right in [01:10:55] the past um so since um I think a [01:11:00] thousand years ago since or Saladin [01:11:02] right [01:11:04] >> um the uh the keys to the church of the [01:11:06] holy [01:11:08] okay did not belong to any of the [01:11:10] Christian dominations because they [01:11:11] couldn't agree amongst themselves, [01:11:13] right? [01:11:14] >> The Armenian, the Orthodox, the [01:11:15] Catholic, Ethiopian, [01:11:16] >> Ethiopian, like who's going to have the [01:11:18] key to the church, right? And actually [01:11:21] that key was handed to at the time [01:11:23] Salah. And even today those keys are [01:11:26] handed to a Muslim family. It's I think [01:11:28] family of Jerusalem. They open the [01:11:31] church in the morning, you know, and [01:11:33] they close the church at night. So [01:11:35] that's the kind of sort of I mean these [01:11:38] are the stories we grew up with as [01:11:40] Christians in the region, as Muslims in [01:11:42] the region, even as Arab Jews, right? Uh [01:11:44] from the region. This is sort of the the [01:11:47] faith and the uh the common faith and [01:11:49] cultural tradition we grew up with here. [01:11:51] Um so a lot of the stuff that we see [01:11:54] today is very new. Uh these are lines [01:11:57] drawn in the sand by colonial powers [01:12:01] um that really sort of uh destroyed that [01:12:05] social cohesion and the social fabric uh [01:12:07] that existed here. [01:12:10] my complete outsider perspective. Um, at [01:12:14] the time when the official capital of [01:12:16] the state of Israel moved from Tel Aviv, [01:12:18] a city of recent creation, [01:12:20] >> to Jerusalem, a city that, as noted, [01:12:23] long predates the state of Israel, was [01:12:26] that [01:12:28] Jerusalem changed from an international [01:12:31] holy site to a kind of government [01:12:34] garrison run by a city-state, [01:12:36] >> run by a nation state. [01:12:38] And that's probably not good for the [01:12:39] Christians. [01:12:42] >> Do you think that's fair? [01:12:43] >> Yeah. I think Jerusalem belongs to all [01:12:45] people, right? [01:12:46] >> It surely doesn't belong to BB. It's not [01:12:48] his. He didn't make it. None of those [01:12:50] buildings was built by the government of [01:12:52] Israel. Sorry. [01:12:54] >> Oh. [01:12:55] >> So, but now it kind of feels like it [01:12:57] belongs to BB. [01:12:59] >> Is that my Again, this is my perspective [01:13:02] from thousands of miles away, but [01:13:04] >> yeah. I mean this is this is a city that [01:13:07] belongs to all people around the world. [01:13:09] This is a holy city especially people of [01:13:11] the Abrahamic religions as we say right [01:13:14] I mean [01:13:15] >> another story on that [01:13:17] >> is I mean my grandfather he was a he was [01:13:19] a merchant from salt [01:13:21] >> um he started [01:13:22] >> where is that [01:13:23] >> it's uh it's actually sort of used to be [01:13:25] the old capital here in in Jordan it's [01:13:28] it's very close to here uh um very close [01:13:31] to Aman as well it's an old city as well [01:13:34] Ottoman city but also Roman city [01:13:37] originally the world is saltus anyway [01:13:39] Roman Roman city. Um but um he used to [01:13:43] uh he started the trade between salt and [01:13:45] Jerusalem when he was 13 years old. At [01:13:48] the time it was again Ottoman Empire. So [01:13:51] you could move around, right? Damascus [01:13:53] and Beirut and Jerusalem. And that's [01:13:55] what the merchants used to do. I [01:13:57] remember and he said and I asked him [01:13:58] what was it like? And the the first [01:14:00] merchant he met in Jerusalem uh the [01:14:03] first uh you know products he acquired [01:14:04] and sold in salt was in Jerusalem. I'm [01:14:07] like, "What was it like, you know, when [01:14:09] you visited there?" This is in the 30s. [01:14:12] >> Yeah. [01:14:12] >> The 1930s or late 20s, I'm guessing. [01:14:15] >> He said, "Look, it's uh it's amazing." [01:14:17] I'm like, "What do you mean?" I'm like, [01:14:18] "Well, you know, there were uh the [01:14:20] Muslims and the Jews and the Christians [01:14:23] together uh in the streets playing back [01:14:26] came, you know, uh just one community [01:14:30] and you can't tell the difference. You [01:14:33] can't tell the difference. and um and uh [01:14:37] yeah, that's what they they're all [01:14:38] Arabs. Most of them were Arabs at the [01:14:40] time, right? So um [01:14:44] that's sort of the the Jerusalem I I [01:14:46] hear about. That's the Jerusalem I [01:14:48] remember. That's the Jerusalem that I [01:14:51] think all of us long for is, you know, a [01:14:54] united Jerusalem. One that's united for [01:14:56] all faiths and, you know, the Jews, the [01:14:58] Christians, and the Muslims. And I think [01:15:01] I hope I'm prayful that we will get [01:15:03] there uh one day. Tucker, [01:15:07] >> it's just interesting [01:15:09] and you know this because you spent so [01:15:10] much time in the United States that I [01:15:12] don't think it would enter the minds of [01:15:15] most Americans that a Christian could be [01:15:17] better treated here in Jordan than in [01:15:19] Israel. [01:15:21] >> I mean, I see the stories of the of how [01:15:24] Christians are suffering in Israel, [01:15:26] especially the Palestinian Christians. [01:15:28] Um I haven't had uh the unfortunate [01:15:31] experience of of going through that [01:15:33] suffering. But yeah, I I don't think [01:15:36] it's just the Christians. I think uh uh [01:15:40] you know there's uh the occup the [01:15:41] occupation is an equal opportunity. Uh [01:15:44] >> oh, for sure the Christians. [01:15:45] >> I don't think it's primarily the [01:15:46] Christians. But [01:15:48] >> what makes it gling from an American [01:15:50] perspective, I am American. I see [01:15:52] everything through the lens of the [01:15:53] United States and its own interest is [01:15:55] that America is paying for this. [01:15:58] >> Yeah. [01:15:58] >> And America is a majority Christian [01:16:00] country. So I mean we can all have [01:16:03] different views about what our foreign [01:16:04] policy ought to be, but I don't think [01:16:06] many Americans are in favor of a foreign [01:16:08] policy that oppresses their fellow [01:16:10] Christians. [01:16:12] >> I hope not. [01:16:15] [laughter] [01:16:18] >> I hope not. I mean I [01:16:19] >> But you see the point. [01:16:20] >> Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think I [01:16:23] mean I mean my advice would be to to the [01:16:26] Christians that that really care in the [01:16:28] US is talk to us. Talk to the ancient [01:16:31] Christians. You know, we've been here [01:16:33] since Christ. We're here. Don't just [01:16:35] listen to the DC experts, you know. [01:16:38] >> Well, so you don't they don't reach out [01:16:41] to you? [01:16:41] >> No. In fact, this I think what I'm [01:16:43] sharing with you today is something [01:16:45] that's novel, right? This is not a [01:16:49] narrative. I I don't think I mean that [01:16:51] you hear right in in the in the US a lot [01:16:54] >> ever. I feel shame listening to you and [01:16:57] I rarely feel shame but I do feel shame [01:16:59] listening to you that I didn't know more [01:17:01] about this because I am a Christian and [01:17:04] I think we have an obligation to know [01:17:07] what our tax dollars do to our fellow [01:17:09] Christians. And I just haven't spent [01:17:11] enough time thinking about it. And I [01:17:13] think it's very odd [01:17:15] that Christians in Jordan and in Israel [01:17:18] aren't receiving [01:17:20] help [01:17:21] >> from Christians in the West. [01:17:23] >> Do you think that? [01:17:24] >> I do. I do. I think it's odd. And and [01:17:26] going back to sort of why the Jordanian [01:17:29] sort of experience is unique. Remember [01:17:31] those three things? Stability is one of [01:17:33] them. [01:17:33] >> If if the Christians in the US and in [01:17:36] the West, right? they really cared about [01:17:38] sort of the minority Christian [01:17:40] communities here in the Holy Lands. If [01:17:41] they really do, and if they don't, I [01:17:43] have a, you know, they have to really [01:17:45] think about why they don't, right? [01:17:46] >> I agree. [01:17:48] >> And I assume most of them do, right? And [01:17:51] if they do, they really have to think [01:17:53] about stability. And I this is important [01:17:56] to mention uh Tucker but possibly the [01:17:59] most destabilizing thing happening in [01:18:01] the region right is the situation in [01:18:04] Israel Palestine without a just [01:18:07] resolution. [01:18:08] >> Yes, [01:18:09] >> a just resolution for the situation of [01:18:12] the Palestinians there. It's just it's [01:18:15] just, you know, it's going to be even [01:18:17] more destabilizing for communities in [01:18:19] Palestine, in Jordan, you know, across [01:18:22] the region, especially [01:18:23] >> the United States. I mean, we 9/11, [01:18:28] you know, if you believe the 9/11 report [01:18:31] was committed by people who are mad [01:18:33] about American foreign policy decisions [01:18:36] in this region right here. [01:18:38] >> Mhm. [01:18:39] >> So, you know, you fund mass murder in [01:18:41] Gaza and there's no blowback to you. I [01:18:44] think there's probably going to be, [01:18:45] wouldn't you think? [01:18:47] >> Yeah. I mean, look, there's [01:18:50] Yeah. US intervention in the region. [01:18:52] There's really positive stuff and [01:18:54] there's negative stuff, right? It's [01:18:56] positive when it's economic and it's [01:18:58] about [01:18:59] >> Jordanians are so diplomatic. I love [01:19:02] >> Well, it really is. I It's truthful. [01:19:04] It's I really feel that like for you [01:19:05] look at, for example, US aid programs in [01:19:07] Jordan, right? [01:19:08] >> Of course, [01:19:09] >> they were so, you know, with the water [01:19:10] infrastructure that they help us develop [01:19:12] here, with the education reform, you [01:19:14] know, all that stuff, [01:19:15] >> you know, job creation that works, [01:19:17] right? [01:19:18] uh you know our defense cooperation that [01:19:21] works right [01:19:22] >> but when you look at military [01:19:23] intervention we pay the price look at [01:19:26] all the refugees right that come into [01:19:28] the country and it has an economic cost [01:19:30] and a social cost and a security cost [01:19:33] and a a political cost so [01:19:36] I'm hoping that you know maybe President [01:19:39] Trump I know he he he um he called the [01:19:42] department of defense uh the department [01:19:44] of war I really hope President Trump I [01:19:47] know he cares about peace. I really hope [01:19:49] he renames it the department of peace [01:19:51] and prosperity because if you want to [01:19:54] have real protection of Christian [01:19:56] communities here, you have to invest in [01:19:58] stability, intervene peacefully, you [01:20:00] know, uh economically FDI, it's great [01:20:04] for the US. It's also great for the [01:20:06] region. [01:20:07] >> What is likely to happen in Gaza next? [01:20:11] What happens to all the people in Gaza? [01:20:15] I mean, it's the genocide, right? I [01:20:18] >> Yeah. [01:20:18] >> Um and it's um [01:20:22] >> I wish I knew Tucker. [01:20:24] >> I I thought [01:20:25] >> Well, all these redevelopment plans and [01:20:27] obviously I'm always hoping for order [01:20:30] and tidiness and prosperity. I mean, I [01:20:32] think those are all godly things. [01:20:33] There's nothing those are good. But you [01:20:36] have, I don't know, close to two million [01:20:38] people who are there and they're in the [01:20:41] way. And clearly there's going to be an [01:20:44] effort to I don't know I don't know what [01:20:45] like what happens to those people [01:20:49] >> and clearly I I think that's my personal [01:20:51] perspective. I'm I'm not a politician [01:20:53] you know I'm a businessman so I think [01:20:55] you know pragmatically and morally about [01:20:57] things right they have to stay. We have [01:21:01] to rebuild their homes and uh you know [01:21:04] their livelihoods their communities. [01:21:07] That's that's the I think the only [01:21:08] solution Tucker I mean I don't see [01:21:11] anyone that can accept morally even [01:21:16] politically even uh just on a [01:21:18] humanitarian basis right a forced [01:21:20] expulsion right of people from Gaza from [01:21:24] their native homeland [01:21:24] >> of millions of people [01:21:25] >> of millions of people [01:21:27] >> that hasn't happened you know since the [01:21:30] second world war so you hope it wouldn't [01:21:32] happen now but do you think that might [01:21:34] happen [01:21:36] I I'm not qualified I think to answer to [01:21:39] answer that question. All I can tell you [01:21:41] is if it does happen on our watch. [01:21:44] >> All of us are accountable for it. [01:21:46] >> I agree. [01:21:47] >> Yeah. I agree completely. [01:21:50] Why did you I mean I don't want to say [01:21:53] the fancy schools that you went to, but [01:21:55] you went to prominent schools in the [01:21:56] United States [01:21:58] >> and you could have stayed. [01:22:01] >> Yeah. [01:22:02] >> And I'm sure all your classmates are [01:22:04] prosperous at this point. [01:22:05] >> Yeah. Yeah. From business school. But [01:22:07] why did you come back? [01:22:09] >> I've always wanted to come back. I US [01:22:11] was for me an amazing experience. Uh [01:22:14] studying in the US at the time. I was [01:22:16] there mainly in the '90s. Right. [01:22:17] >> Yeah. [01:22:18] >> Um and you know I I owe a lot lot to my [01:22:23] education in the US. It's very [01:22:26] meaningful experience. There was it felt [01:22:28] like a lot of at the time this freedom [01:22:31] of thought and expression and then [01:22:33] ultimately conscience. [01:22:34] >> Yes. [01:22:36] that you can have there. [01:22:37] >> Exactly. [01:22:38] >> And that's very liberating. And [01:22:40] >> well, the point of freedom of speech is [01:22:41] freedom of conscience. I get to believe [01:22:43] what I I get to speak my values out [01:22:45] loud. Right. [01:22:46] >> Exactly. And and I I felt that in the US [01:22:48] when I was there. That was very very [01:22:50] powerful lesson. Um but the intention [01:22:53] was never uh to stay there. This is a [01:22:56] very collectivist again society. Family [01:22:58] here is very important. You know, [01:23:00] community here is very important. And to [01:23:02] want to be part of that and to give back [01:23:05] to that and to support that and to have [01:23:08] my family and my children grow up in [01:23:10] that sort of collectivist environment is [01:23:13] really more important than money or [01:23:15] anything else honestly. And I that's how [01:23:17] I'm programmed. Um I'm fortunate I can [01:23:21] say that because I could also afford to [01:23:23] come back you know I was um uh my father [01:23:27] was a businessman, my grandfather was a [01:23:29] businessman. So I could afford to come [01:23:31] here and you know to explore sort of my [01:23:35] career journey. Uh so some people can't. [01:23:38] So they optimize working in other parts [01:23:40] of the world. So I have to be honest [01:23:42] about that. But no regrets. I I love it [01:23:45] here. [01:23:46] >> Did you have family on the other side of [01:23:47] the river in 48 or no 67? [01:23:50] >> No. Very much. We're very much [01:23:52] Jordanian. Uh [01:23:54] >> always. [01:23:55] >> Yeah. My the my family is Yeah. [01:23:59] How how many refugees did you get in 48? [01:24:02] Do you know? [01:24:04] >> Oh, wow. I I'm not I'm not on top of the [01:24:06] figures, but I think there were total of [01:24:08] at the time, I'm not sure if they all [01:24:10] came to Jordan, but 6 700,000 total [01:24:13] refugees at the time. Some of them went [01:24:15] into Palestine and Syria and a lot of [01:24:17] them came into Jordan. [01:24:20] So, um that's the total number if I [01:24:22] recall, if my memory serves me [01:24:24] correctly. I'm not sure what proportion. [01:24:26] and I think the majority came into [01:24:28] Jordan. [01:24:30] >> My last question is where do you think [01:24:32] this is all going? It seems like things [01:24:34] are accelerating quickly. People are [01:24:35] getting more radical. The maps are being [01:24:39] redrawn. [01:24:41] Huge populations are being moved around. [01:24:43] I mean, what what are we looking at [01:24:44] here? [01:24:46] >> Um [01:24:48] I look I I'm scared for what's coming. [01:24:51] >> It feels like a big thing. I guess [01:24:53] that's what I'm saying. [01:24:53] >> I am scared for what's coming. it [01:24:56] there's a lot of lack of clarity [01:24:59] and it feels like decisions are being [01:25:02] made in you know back room doors [01:25:06] um by who knows who. So there's honestly [01:25:10] I wish I I wish I could answer that and [01:25:12] that that's the thing is if you want to [01:25:14] create instability you create insecurity [01:25:16] because nobody knows you know outcomes. [01:25:21] Um I feel uh when it comes to Jordan, [01:25:24] you know, we have a strong leadership [01:25:26] here. We have strong uh security and [01:25:30] defense here. We have a wise people [01:25:32] here. I mean, you've seen this is one of [01:25:34] the most resilient countries I think in [01:25:36] the world. I mean, who who can come up [01:25:37] and deal with the types of things that [01:25:40] we've had to dealt with over the past [01:25:41] couple of decades. [01:25:43] So, I think, you know, we'll find a way [01:25:46] through it. But my concern is also for [01:25:49] the wider region, right? At what cost? [01:25:52] And my only concern u Tucker I mean when [01:25:56] you have US military intervention or any [01:25:58] kind of military intervention [01:26:01] if there is a vacuum it needs to be [01:26:04] filled and who's going to fill that [01:26:06] vacuum right and what comes later what [01:26:09] comes later might be even worse than [01:26:11] Right. Well, I think we kind of know [01:26:12] because we've had 1948 who got hurt. [01:26:17] Well, the Christians got hurt. A lot of [01:26:19] Muslims got hurt, too. But the [01:26:20] Christians being a minority got hurt. [01:26:22] >> Then you have Israel inspiring pushing [01:26:25] for the Iraq war. Christians population [01:26:28] of the country just basically [01:26:29] evaporates. [01:26:30] >> Then you have Israel pushing for the [01:26:32] overthrow of Assad in Syria. Minority [01:26:34] religious people get hurt. Christians, [01:26:37] not just Alawites, but lots of them. But [01:26:39] they get crushed. Lebanon, [01:26:42] >> right? [01:26:42] >> Bombed by Israel for 40 years, [01:26:44] >> correct? [01:26:45] >> Christian population diminishes. [01:26:48] So like I I see a theme here. [laughter] [01:26:51] >> Do you? [01:26:53] >> Yeah, there's clearly a theme. [01:26:54] >> Yeah. [01:26:55] >> Yeah. [01:26:55] >> And it's it's a it's an anti-Christian [01:26:57] theme. [01:26:59] >> I think it is. I I think it is because [01:27:02] what it means to be Christian is if you [01:27:05] really think about it, you know, the [01:27:06] most radical thing that Jesus taught us [01:27:08] is love. [01:27:09] >> Yes. [01:27:10] >> And [01:27:12] if something does not stem out of love, [01:27:15] right, is it really Christian? [01:27:17] >> No. [01:27:17] >> Yeah. And a lot of what's happening is [01:27:22] the furthest thing away imaginable from [01:27:24] love that I can imagine at this stage, [01:27:26] Tucker. So yeah, it doesn't feel very [01:27:28] Christian to me. [01:27:30] Good luck. [01:27:31] >> Excellent. Thank you.