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[00:00:00] I have a friend named Thomas Sheety. He [00:00:02] is the founder of a organization called [00:00:04] Atheist for Liberty. He is openly [00:00:06] conservative. Um, but he's mostly [00:00:08] interested in atheist activism and [00:00:10] normalizing atheism in all sects, [00:00:12] including the conservative movement. He [00:00:15] seems to be under the impression that a [00:00:16] lot of conservatives um, including you, [00:00:18] are more hesitant to work with atheist [00:00:20] organizations. Is there any truth to [00:00:22] that? [00:00:23] >> Yes and no. I mean, if you're an atheist [00:00:25] and you want to be part of the [00:00:26] conservative movement, go ahead. But you [00:00:28] must be an honest atheist and [00:00:30] acknowledge that morality is [00:00:31] definitionally subjective without a [00:00:34] belief in God. That you cannot be an [00:00:36] atheist and believe in objective [00:00:37] morality. It is an impossibility. And [00:00:39] true atheists will acknowledge this. At [00:00:41] some point you have an ought claim. [00:00:43] Well, things ought to be a certain way. [00:00:45] We as Christians or we that believe in [00:00:47] the divine, we have is claims that there [00:00:50] murder is wrong. Whereas an atheist will [00:00:52] say, "Well, murder ought to be wrong [00:00:54] because you can't have an objective [00:00:56] definition if there is not a divine [00:00:58] eternal power over you." So, look, if an [00:01:00] atheist wants to fight alongside of us [00:01:02] to end abortion or to try and end the [00:01:05] massacring of our kids, that's called [00:01:07] gender affirming care. And or if an [00:01:09] atheist wants to march alongside of us [00:01:11] to say no men and female sports, they're [00:01:13] more than welcome to be able to do that. [00:01:15] But atheist for liberty is an [00:01:17] interesting phrase because I don't [00:01:19] believe you can have liberty without [00:01:20] God. because liberty is not man's idea. [00:01:22] It is God's idea. That's just my own [00:01:24] personal belief and it's also the belief [00:01:26] of everything that built this nation. [00:01:28] But yes, I'm I'm I know a lot of good [00:01:30] atheists. The question though is how do [00:01:32] you know they're good? It's because [00:01:33] you're appealing to a moral authority [00:01:35] above just the secular material realm. [00:01:37] One that is transcendent, we would [00:01:40] believe given by God. [00:01:42] >> Um well, I I don't believe in objective [00:01:45] morality. I do know there are plenty of [00:01:47] atheists who are moral objectivists. [00:01:48] >> Are you an atheist? Sorry to interrupt, [00:01:50] but [00:01:50] >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, let me just Can I [00:01:52] ask you a question? And I don't mean I [00:01:54] know this is your first time at the mic, [00:01:55] so I'm just going to try to be tender in [00:01:56] doing this. [00:01:57] >> Okay. Appreciate that. [00:01:57] >> So, you don't believe in objective [00:01:59] morality, right? [00:02:00] >> I personally don't. [00:02:00] >> Okay. Uh, was the Holocaust objectively [00:02:02] wrong? [00:02:03] >> Objectively, no, but it would have been [00:02:05] better if it didn't happen because most [00:02:07] people wouldn't want that to happen. [00:02:08] >> So, that's that's where we that's where [00:02:11] we are on different planets. [00:02:13] >> Um, and that's okay. I'm not trying to [00:02:14] make fun of you. I'm trying to be [00:02:15] graceful in the way that we're going [00:02:16] about this. Do you think Hitler was [00:02:19] objectively evil? [00:02:22] >> No, because it's subjective. [00:02:24] >> But I just hope all of you guys [00:02:25] understand he's being an honest atheist [00:02:28] to your credit because as an atheist, [00:02:30] you're not allowed to say anything is [00:02:31] objectively right or wrong. I come from [00:02:34] a worldview that when you butcher six [00:02:36] million people that is objectively [00:02:38] wrong, no matter what. And and it's very [00:02:41] important truth claim because when you [00:02:44] do not have objective truth anchoring [00:02:46] your society then it becomes a power [00:02:48] struggle. If you do not have truth then [00:02:51] power will reign. Whoever can get the [00:02:52] most amount of power then ends up having [00:02:55] the most amount of say over society. We [00:02:58] believe what is objectively right, true, [00:03:00] good and beautiful should be [00:03:02] transcendent over society. Your [00:03:03] thoughts? [00:03:04] >> So do you believe objective morality [00:03:05] specifically comes from the Bible? [00:03:07] >> Yes and no. It's al it's in nature and [00:03:09] the Bible explains nature. So objective [00:03:12] morality can be discovered in many [00:03:13] different cultures and societies [00:03:15] pointing towards what we believe is the [00:03:17] ultimate objective truth Jesus Christ. [00:03:19] CS Lewis explained this the best in his [00:03:21] book abolition of man which is that [00:03:23] almost every religion talks about a [00:03:25] certain way to live a a Dao or a path [00:03:28] that we should be on. And so more more [00:03:32] simply than just the Bible, we believe [00:03:35] in what the founders believed, which is [00:03:36] an ethical monotheism that there is one [00:03:39] God. He has a general way that he wants [00:03:41] you to live. For example, murdering is [00:03:43] bad, kidnapping is wrong, defense of the [00:03:46] innocent, and we should do our best to [00:03:48] try to live alongside of that path. [00:03:50] >> Okay. Well, I think those are very [00:03:52] interesting examples. Uh, you bring up [00:03:54] the founders, you bring up Hitler, but [00:03:55] Hitler was a self-proclaimed Catholic [00:03:57] and he called Nazism a Christian [00:03:59] movement. [00:04:00] >> Yeah, I would be careful saying that he [00:04:02] was he was not. That's okay. I mean, [00:04:03] >> he called himself a Catholic. He said he [00:04:05] specifically said in 1927, "Our movement [00:04:07] is Christian." They had on the belt [00:04:08] buckles God on our side. [00:04:10] >> Yeah. [00:04:10] >> They they had to swear to the almighty [00:04:12] God. Uh, atheists were not trusted to be [00:04:14] in the SS. Even if I grant you that, [00:04:17] despite the fact that he killed a lot of [00:04:18] pastors and priests and [00:04:21] >> there of course you can pervert things [00:04:23] in the name of God, no one denounces [00:04:25] that. Just as a side note though, far [00:04:27] more people died under the banner of [00:04:29] atheism than Christianity in the 20th [00:04:31] century. [00:04:32] >> Mao was an atheist. Stalin was an [00:04:33] atheist. Pulpot was an atheist. [00:04:36] Believing in no god actually led to the [00:04:38] destruction and the murder of well over [00:04:39] a 100red million people. And that's [00:04:41] fine. So again, if atheists want to come [00:04:44] alongside us as conservatives and fight [00:04:46] for what is good, that is great. But I [00:04:48] will never acknowledge that atheists can [00:04:50] tell me what is objectively good. They [00:04:52] can only give me a preference. They [00:04:54] cannot tell me what is right. And [00:04:56] preferences eventually will lead you [00:04:58] towards moral and societal decline. [00:05:01] Okay. So I think you just listed a bunch [00:05:03] of communists. And it's worth [00:05:05] acknowledging the vast majority of [00:05:06] atheists are not communists, just like [00:05:07] the vast majority of Christians are not [00:05:08] theocrats who don't support the divine [00:05:10] right. It's also worth acknowledging [00:05:11] that the uh founders were actually [00:05:14] inspired by enlightenment values, not by [00:05:16] the Bible. America was found as a [00:05:18] secular nation. We were the first uh [00:05:20] quote unquote goalless constitution. [00:05:23] Yeah. Again, I've done this so many [00:05:24] times, so I don't know if we want to [00:05:26] waste our time doing this, but 55 out of [00:05:28] 56 of the signers of the declaration [00:05:29] were Bible believing church attending [00:05:31] Christians. Nine out of 13 of the states [00:05:33] of the title of ratification required a [00:05:34] declaration of faith in order for you to [00:05:36] serve in the states. We were our birth [00:05:38] certificate which is the Mayflower [00:05:39] Compact said explicitly we are here to [00:05:41] spread Christianity throughout the land. [00:05:43] It was the first great revival that led [00:05:44] to the American Revolution of Jonathan [00:05:46] Edwards and Jonathan Mayhew and George [00:05:48] Whitfield that preached all across the [00:05:50] eastern seabboard. Jon Adams famously [00:05:52] said the constitution was written solely [00:05:53] for a moral and religious people. It's [00:05:55] wholly inadequate for the people of any [00:05:56] other. We were a Christian nation that [00:05:58] was able to embrace the idea of a free [00:06:00] society. God is mentioned four times in [00:06:02] the Declaration of Independence. Not [00:06:03] only that, Jesus Christ is mentioned in [00:06:05] the Declaration of Pence where it says, [00:06:06] "We appeal to the divine judge of the [00:06:08] universe," which of course is a direct [00:06:09] appeal to Jesus in the book of [00:06:11] Revelation. Yes, there were rationalist [00:06:13] enlightenment values that inform some of [00:06:15] the founders, but it irrefutably was a [00:06:17] Christian nation. Maryland was Catholic. [00:06:19] Pennsylvania was Quaker. Almost every [00:06:21] state had their own like specific type [00:06:24] of Christian preference. The idea of an [00:06:26] atheist or not believing in any God was [00:06:28] an idea that was so foreign to the [00:06:30] founders. Even Thomas Jefferson the [00:06:32] great deist he revered the Bible albeit [00:06:34] with you know some significant edits. [00:06:36] However, the idea of believing in no [00:06:39] cosmological or no axiological or no [00:06:41] teological or no ontological being would [00:06:45] be a concept that our founding fathers [00:06:46] and not just find foreign. They would [00:06:48] find it extraordinarily dangerous. Why? [00:06:50] Because the French revolution was [00:06:51] happening simultaneously as the American [00:06:53] revolution which was explicitly atheist. [00:06:55] They they actually recreated their own [00:06:58] gods and had they said we are going to [00:07:00] appeal to what the god of reason. And [00:07:02] this is my final contention is that when [00:07:04] I talk to atheists the French Revolution [00:07:06] is a great example. They literally tried [00:07:07] to change the Gregorian calendar to a [00:07:09] 10-day week. They went and imprisoned [00:07:11] people of faith. They put priests in [00:07:12] jail. All these different sorts of [00:07:14] things. And they said we are going to [00:07:15] appeal to the god of reason. Well, how [00:07:17] did that work out? It worked out with [00:07:18] the guillotine and the slaughter of tens [00:07:20] of thousands of people. The French [00:07:21] Revolution was one of the greatest [00:07:23] disasters in human recorded history. [00:07:25] Contrast that with the American [00:07:27] Revolution. Why did the American [00:07:28] Revolution create the greatest nation [00:07:30] ever to exist in the history of the [00:07:31] world and the French Revolution resulted [00:07:32] in a lot of blood and even the killing [00:07:34] of their own once leader Maxmillian Rubs [00:07:36] Beier? It's because we were anchored on [00:07:37] Christian ideas. If you do if you are [00:07:39] not anchored on Christian ideas, then [00:07:41] don't be surprised and all of a sudden [00:07:43] there is no fruit to the harvest that [00:07:44] you're trying to create. [00:07:45] >> I'm an atheist, so I disagree with your [00:07:47] religious claims. [00:07:48] >> Uh do you believe in absolute truth? [00:07:52] question. [00:07:52] >> I'm not sure you can provide me positive [00:07:55] evidence that there is absolute truth. [00:07:56] So the qu the answer would be I'm not [00:07:57] sure. [00:07:58] >> Are you are you absolutely not sure? [00:08:00] >> I'm not sure if I'm absolutely not sure. [00:08:02] See this works if you say no, but it [00:08:03] doesn't work if you bottom out in the [00:08:04] I'm not I don't know question. [00:08:06] >> Right. No, but saying you're not sure is [00:08:08] you are not even sure if you're not [00:08:10] sure. So at some point you're just [00:08:11] always have to make a truth claim. Yeah. [00:08:12] >> No, you can just be not sure about [00:08:14] everything all the way down. I don't see [00:08:15] why you can't. And my answer would be I [00:08:17] think um truth is instrumentalist in [00:08:18] theory. I think it's a thing we choose [00:08:20] pragmatically. For the purposes of [00:08:21] discussion, I think you can say, "Yeah, [00:08:23] I think uh truth exists pragmatically." [00:08:25] Regardless of that, I don't see how you [00:08:26] get to God. [00:08:27] >> Are you alive? [00:08:28] >> Huh? [00:08:28] >> Are you alive? [00:08:29] >> I think I'm alive. Yeah. [00:08:31] >> Think you're alive? [00:08:32] >> Yeah. [00:08:34] >> Is the sun Is the sun shining? [00:08:36] >> I think it's shining. Yeah. [00:08:38] >> From my frame of reference, it is [00:08:39] shining. Notice Notice how none of this [00:08:43] >> I mean, notice how you've gotten no [00:08:45] steps closer to proving God. [00:08:47] >> No, I'm asking questions, man. Okay. [00:08:48] >> Yeah. But [00:08:49] >> are you sure we did it? [00:08:50] >> Yeah. I'm [00:08:52] >> Are you sure we didn't go? [00:08:54] >> I'm I'm sure in the pragmatic [00:08:55] instrumental. [00:08:56] >> How sure are you that we didn't? [00:08:58] >> In the pragmatic instrumentalist sense. [00:08:59] Absolutely sure. I see truth as a [00:09:01] utility. [00:09:01] >> So there is a truth that's absolute. [00:09:03] >> No, it's it's instrumentally true. [00:09:05] >> You just said it was absolute. [00:09:06] >> No, absolutely. Sure. In the [00:09:07] instrumentalist sense of the word truth. [00:09:09] This is a philosophical tradition that [00:09:11] dates back hundreds of years. [00:09:12] Instrumentalism. [00:09:13] >> Yeah. Which of course we don't subscribe [00:09:15] to obviously. So, [00:09:16] >> do you believe that murder is [00:09:17] objectively wrong? [00:09:19] >> Epistemologically objective or [00:09:20] ontologically objective? [00:09:22] >> Uh, morally. [00:09:24] >> See, you didn't answer the question, but [00:09:26] >> both both epistemologically and [00:09:28] ontologically. But for the purpose of [00:09:29] discussion, [00:09:30] >> what? Okay. So, by what you mean? No, I [00:09:32] don't think it's objective. [00:09:34] >> Was Hitler a bad person objectively? [00:09:37] >> No. If you mean by the way, by the way, [00:09:40] wait slowly. Tread slowly. No, no, but [00:09:44] he's being honest. At its core, atheists [00:09:46] cannot say that Hitler was bad. [00:09:48] >> Can Can I make the claim now? [00:09:49] >> Notice who here is relying on feelings [00:09:52] and not facts. Your argument is I feel [00:09:54] that Hitler was objective. [00:09:55] >> No, I know. [00:09:56] >> No, no, you feel that way. Can you [00:09:57] provide me evidence of how you know? Can [00:09:59] you provide me evidence that morality is [00:10:00] objective? [00:10:01] >> No, of course I can because [00:10:04] >> Well, first of all, morality is both [00:10:05] reason and revelation and it's built [00:10:07] within to us that murder is wrong. [00:10:08] >> Yeah. [00:10:09] >> Wait. Okay. Where's your evidence of [00:10:10] that? [00:10:10] >> Wait. Wait. I'm so sorry. Is that a [00:10:12] That's a claim, not evidence. That's a [00:10:13] claim. [00:10:14] >> Okay, we could we could spend multiple [00:10:15] hours, but in the Western tradition, [00:10:18] >> so notice how you're saying by [00:10:19] tradition, by by the standards, by these [00:10:22] all claims of non-truth. [00:10:23] >> Hold on. Yes, they are. We believe that [00:10:25] truth was revealed to us. [00:10:27] >> We believe claim [00:10:28] >> by God. Hold on, but let me let me We [00:10:30] can get there. You can keep on [00:10:31] interrupting us. [00:10:32] >> But but let me prove to you how silly [00:10:34] your viewpoint is, [00:10:35] >> and how self-evidently wrong, [00:10:37] >> okay? Is it objectively wrong to kids? [00:10:40] >> When you say objective, what I mean by [00:10:42] objective, [cheering] [00:10:48] >> once again, once again, [00:10:53] [cheering] [00:10:57] >> dude, can I ask you something? And I [00:10:58] >> No, no, no. Notice how you still haven't [00:11:00] given me dispositive evidence on reality [00:11:02] is objective. You're merely saying my [00:11:04] answer is I feel that way. Sure, I feel [00:11:06] that way. That's all I can It's object. [00:11:08] It's objectively wrong to the laws of [00:11:10] nature. [00:11:10] >> What law of nature? [00:11:11] >> Well, the self-evident nature of [00:11:13] existence. [00:11:14] >> Where is your proof that it's self? Show [00:11:15] me the logical proof that it's [00:11:16] self-evident. [00:11:17] >> Okay. It's it's in your reason that God [00:11:18] gave you in the consciousness. [00:11:20] >> Prove that God gave it to me. Prove that [00:11:21] God gave it to me. [00:11:22] >> Okay. But again, your existence is proof [00:11:24] of that. You you again, we can get back [00:11:27] down to the first principles of this. [00:11:29] But [00:11:30] >> you can, but you don't want to because [00:11:31] you know it doesn't look good. No, it [00:11:33] looks actually really good because [00:11:35] evidence for it [00:11:35] >> built within again interrupting does not [00:11:38] make you right. So, [00:11:39] >> but you keep repeating your point. I get [00:11:40] your point. [00:11:40] >> No, I don't. So, let me ask you a [00:11:42] question in closing since you can't [00:11:43] objectively say that Hitler was bad or [00:11:45] that child is is wrong. [00:11:47] >> So, how did the universe come into [00:11:50] existence? [00:11:51] >> I don't know. [00:11:53] >> Okay. But science says that it was a big [00:11:54] bang or a beginning point, right? Okay. [00:11:56] >> So, using logic which you believe in. [00:11:58] >> Is this the colum cosmological argument? [00:11:59] >> Well, again, you keep interrupting. [00:12:01] Using using logic, if space, time, and [00:12:04] matter [00:12:05] >> had a starting point, then logically [00:12:08] shouldn't something outside of space, [00:12:09] time, and matter have started those [00:12:11] things. [00:12:11] >> How do you know that cause is personal? [00:12:13] How do you know that cause is worth [00:12:14] praying to? [00:12:15] >> That's not That's not the question. [00:12:16] >> Wait, wait. Okay, sure, there is a [00:12:17] cause. [00:12:18] >> Oh, that cause is God cuz it's outside [00:12:19] of space, time. No, no, but you believe [00:12:22] in different things about God. [00:12:23] [cheering] You think that God is [00:12:24] personal? [00:12:24] >> That's not That's not what we're [00:12:25] debating. We're [00:12:26] >> No, we are arguing about God. [00:12:27] >> We're about [00:12:30] religion. [00:12:30] >> Hold on. No, we're not debating. We're [00:12:31] debating whether or not there's a god or [00:12:32] not. [00:12:33] >> No, the Christian god. I said religion [00:12:34] that you're a religious person. You're a [00:12:36] Christian in nature. You follow [00:12:37] religious tradition. [00:12:38] >> Calm down. You said you're an atheist. [00:12:39] >> Wait, no. God, God historically, Aquinus [00:12:41] even defines it this way is a personal [00:12:43] God. You still haven't gotten to me to [00:12:44] prove that it's personal. [00:12:45] >> I'm happy to get to that. [00:12:46] >> Okay, then get to it. [00:12:47] >> Look, here's here's what I find with [00:12:48] atheists. They don't want to worship or [00:12:51] acknowledge God because many atheists [00:12:53] think they are God. [00:12:54] >> And you embody that really well. [00:12:56] >> I didn't know you were a mind reader, [00:12:57] Charlie. This is news to me. [00:12:58] >> It's not a mind readader. I I could tell [00:13:00] by your behavior. I will say this. I [00:13:01] hope that you give your life to Jesus [00:13:03] Christ. [00:13:03] >> I hope you do. [cheering] [00:13:05] >> I hope you can find evidence. I hope you [00:13:07] can find evidence. [00:13:07] >> You know what's interesting? There is [00:13:08] evidence. There is evidence that Jes [00:13:10] Hold on. Last thing. Do you believe [00:13:12] Jesus Christ was a real historical [00:13:13] figure? [00:13:14] >> Yes. [00:13:14] >> Do you believe that the gospels are [00:13:16] historically accurate and we can prove [00:13:17] them with archaeological evidence? [00:13:19] >> Some parts are. Some parts are some [00:13:21] parts are metaphors. Some parts are [00:13:23] allegorories. Some parts are literal. It [00:13:25] depends. Some parts are attempts at [00:13:26] history. Why depends which book or [00:13:28] gospel? [00:13:29] >> Using rational analysis, why would the [00:13:31] disciples lie about the resurrection of [00:13:33] Christ? [00:13:34] >> Okay, we can talk about this. People [00:13:36] they can be mistaken mistakenly wrong [00:13:37] about it. [00:13:38] >> So they would be mistakenly wrong up to [00:13:39] the point where they get martyed. [00:13:41] >> The whole point the whole point of being [00:13:43] mistakenly wrong about something is you [00:13:44] believe it's true [00:13:45] >> all the way up until the point of death. [00:13:47] >> The whole point of being mistakenly [00:13:48] wrong about something is you [00:13:49] >> I just want to make sure I understand [00:13:50] your position. Your position is that the [00:13:52] 12 disciples who knew Christ best saw [00:13:54] him die and then they all believed a [00:13:56] mistaken conspiracy for the rest of [00:13:58] their life. All of them together as a [00:14:00] conspiracy. [00:14:01] >> Yes. Yes. There is no firsthand account [00:14:04] from the 500. The gospels are all [00:14:06] written by these people. People have [00:14:08] died for crazy claims in the past that [00:14:09] we know aren't true. These are all facts [00:14:11] about history. [00:14:11] >> That's not correct. Okay. One of the [00:14:13] gospels was written by one of his [00:14:14] closest associates, Matthew the tax [00:14:16] collector. Luke was a factfighter that [00:14:19] was hired. No, I didn't say the gospels [00:14:20] weren't written by them. I said there's [00:14:21] no evidence from the 500 that he [00:14:23] appeared to. There's no firsthand [00:14:24] accounts. [00:14:24] >> Again, that's not correct. Thank you for [00:14:25] your time. We'll get to the next [00:14:26] question. [00:14:26] >> Okay, you can you can not answer. [00:14:28] >> We [cheering and screaming] will pray [00:14:28] for you. Thank you.