EFTA00961251.pdf

From: Jeffrey Epstein <jeevacation®grnail.corn> To: Ed Boyden Subject: Re: Thanks Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 12:33:45 +0000 agreed, . On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 8:27 AM, Ed Boyden < wrote: I agree we need to analyze the music -- for the brain, that would be the behavior, I guess? -- but I would also argue that focusing on the music has been the traditional way people have done things, yielding the very successful field of psychology. Right now we can delve into the mechanisms by which the music is generated, however -- and almost certainly that will require far better descriptors and understandings of the music itself! So in summary, to advance psychology beyond the current state, we need radically new tools to map the brain, and then we will have such detailed mechanism that we can push the description of the music forward too. Ed On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 8:19 AM, Jeffrey Epstein [email protected]> wrote: > agreed.. but i also need to understand the music and well as the musician, > . can we recognize music from the signals. probably. ? regularities , > coherence.. is there a program that can say this signal is a music as > opposed to conversation.? you are doing great work and i will follow > closely > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 7:15 AM, Ed Boyden > wrote: >> I certainly hope that nobody is proposing absurd reductionism! >> Certainly we are not. We do value *precision* however -- we need to >> measure the system at the correct level of abstraction, to find the >> building blocks that we know are important, if we ever want to be >> constructive and build up again. >> The problem with analogies that are very simple and >> physics-oriented, is that while they can display complexity to be >> sure, they rarely compute anything particularly profound -- even >> things like lightning or self-organized criticality or even chaos. >> They look cool, but they don't generate intelligence, right? >> For the brain: there's complexity of structure that is inherent, and >> that while reductionism is not the goal, it's still true that we need >> **precision** if the data we acquire will be worth modeling. (The >> closest analogy might be weather: we can predict the weather far >> better now than we could even a decade or two ago, and the reason is >> that we have the right kinds of data now -- satellite data, >> distributed data, etc. -- when you have that kind of data, at the >> density and time resolution that are appropriate, then the physics >> becomes meaningful and even modelable.) EFTA00961251 >> That's why we need to map the entire brain: then we can watch as >> information flows from sensation areas, through circuits that combine >> those sensory inputs with internal process like thoughts and emotions, >> and then into motor and output areas that cause behavior. >> To pick a piano analogy: if you want to understand a musician, it's >> not enough just to watch a finger, or a string, or the sheet music. >> You need to observe the process as the person learns the music, >> controls the keys, and then creates the full musical experience, » right? » Ed >> On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 7:06 AM, Jeffrey Epstein [email protected]> » wrote: >> > sorry, i posed a sloppy question. / From the view of understanding >> > music, more akin to thought, i think that you need to careful that >> > reductionism isn't taken to the absurd level, of looking at the string »> makeup and how it causes sympathetic vibrations, might look like » > intent . » > there is a code that says , hit these strings and a melody develops. >» it » > has a temporal component , it has amplitude, but unless it is looked at >» as >> > a whole the music is not there. I like aversive , as it appears hard >> > wired, as another out side idea, look at the mathematics of »> lightning, it descrives well neural firings, with energy minimization. >> > » > >> > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 6:54 AM, Ed Boyden I> wrote: »» »>> The piano itself isn't quite the analogy to the brain, because it has »>> no memory, independent of the human playing it. After the finger »>> lifts, the strings quiets down. »» So I am assuming that we need to model the human playing the piano? »» Suppose, say, we want to understand what emotion is generating the »» music. »>> If we could measure activity in the brain of the person playing the »>> piano, and could predict what melody or sequence of notes the person »» would play, based on that activity, then we could infer that the »>> internal brain activity was causing the melody. This inference might »» be convertible into proof, if we were to stimulate the brain and play »>> back an activity pattern into the brain, seeing how that would alter »>> the melody being played. And if we have a molecular map of the brain, »» which we could simulate on a computer, we could through biophysical »» simulation begin to see how the molecular interactions between cells, »>> yield dynamics of the network, which then yield the sequence of finger »» commands that yield the music. »>> Thus, the finger is the interface between two dynamical systems »>> the brain and the piano. Each of those dynamical systems has a »» physical implementation that can be modeled, if we have three things: »>> -- mechanistic maps (piano: string lengths, material properties, etc.) »>> -- dynamics (piano: the finger movements and temporal scuplting) »» -- control (piano: we can modulate the human and see how the music »» changes) EFTA00961252 »» »» Ed »» »» On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 6:46 AM, Jeffrey Epstein »» <[email protected]> »» wrote: >> >> > give me a piano music analogy, / watching the strings, ? after key »» > inputs,? interesting byt not dispositive of anything meaningful »»> »»> »» > On The, May 28, 2013 at 6:40 AM, Ed Boyden < wrote: » » » »»» I agree we need a top-down! Two thoughts: >> >> >> -- Yes, developing mapping circuit technology and then applying it » » » to >> >> >> simple behaviors -- hard wired aversive stuff -- is indeed a way to »»» go. As we plan out these mapping technologies, we're actually >> >> >> beginning experiments to map out these aversive things too. We are >> >> >> collaborating with many groups along these lines. We need to finish >> >> >> the fundamental technology building so that we can obtain maps at »»» the >> >> >> right level, and then we can acquire datasets that are compatible »»» with »»» top-down theory, to be sure. >> >> >> -- Another way to think top-down is to work our way inwards, from »»» the >> >> >> observables. We know that behavior -- movement, speech, other »»» action >> >> >> -- is observable; if a feeling or thought is prominent enough, it »»» will >> >> >> be manifest through these channels as an observable. Thus we can »»» also >> >> » try to infer internal states by their effects on observables, and »»» then >> >> >> to associate neural activity with these internal states and >> >> >> observables. In theory this should scale to arbitrarily complex »»» internal states, not just simple aversive states. » » » »»» Best, » » » Ed » » » >> >> >> On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 11:24 AM, Jeffrey Epstein »»»[email protected]> »»» wrote: »»>» i think you need a top down as well as bottom up. as looking at » » » > my »»>» piano »»»> while being played, i can go string by string ( not string »»>» theory »>> >> > strings). hammer by hammer, material of string , molecular »»>» interaction »»>» naturalvibration, harmonics, sympathtice vibration but i »»>» would » » >» not EFTA00961253 »»>» hear >> >> >> > or understand the melody or music being played. I believe that >> >> >> > each »»>» individual has its own encrpytion algorithm, as the neural »»>» net »»»> grows »»>» it encrypts some input signals. some are hard wired. so instead »»>» of >> >> >> > emotion >> >> >> > , movement, speech, etc, I think a proitable area of initail »»>» inquiry »»>» should >> >> >> > be the hard wired aversive stuff only. smell of dead meat.. >> >> >> > reaction »»>» to fire. i tihnk that aesthectics will be the greatest ration of >> >> >> > output to »»>» input. . or the least energy to decode. . dissonance, cannot » » >» be >> >> >> > easily >> >> >> > resolved so the energy to decode the information, is too high and »»>» becomes >> >> >> > painful. Does a dream state come upon us, or do we dream all »»>» the »»>» time »»>» and concious state relegates the dreams to behind the screen. »»>» When »»>» sleep »»>» deprived the dreams begin to pop through the screen, as »»>» hallucinations. »»>» a breakdown of the screen , results in a form of schizphrenia, »»>» where »»>» they >> >> >> > cann no longer distiguish between voices. dream produced while »»>» awake » » » > or »»>» the »»>» awake state angel on the shoulder whispering. . I am an avid »»>» funder »»>» of »»>» the bleeding edge in many fields. keep me up to date on what you »»»> are »»>» doing, and hope to see you in your own habitat. » » » > » » » > >> >> >> > On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Ed Boyden .4 »»»> wrote: » » » » >> >> >> » Hi Jeffrey, » » » » >> >> >> >> Yes, it was great chatting about all the ways neuroengineering is »»»» going to go in the coming years, revealing both fundamental >> >> >> >> mechanistic brain maps, and providing the control knobs for » » » » fixing >> >> >> >> brain disorders and understanding complex phenomena like EFTA00961254 >> >> >> >> consciousness. Would be great to talk about how then to make »>> >> >> mathematical sense of these maps and control knobs... arguably »»»» the >> >> >> >> big stumbling block to date is the lack of good data, but that's »»»» about »»»» to change, thanks to our current and future efforts! Then we »»»» will »»»» have many things that require deep mathematics to understand! » » » » »»»» Ed » » » » >> >> >> » On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 1:16 AM, Joi Ito »»»» wrote: »»»>» Hi Jeffrey. » » » » > »»»>» Thanks for a really enjoyable conversation and your hospitality »»»>» tonight. »»»>» Look forward to connecting again and receiving you at the Media » » » >» Lab » » » » > on my »»»>» turf. ;-) » » » » > »»»>» - Joi » » » » > » » » » » » » » » » » » » » » » -- »»»» Ed Boyden, Ph. D. >> >> >> » Leader, Synthetic Neurobiology Group >> >> >> >> Associate Professor, MIT Media Lab and McGovern Institute, »»»» Departments of Biological Engineering and Brain and Cognitive >> >> >> » Sciences »»»» Benesse Chair, New York Stem Cell Foundation-Robertson »»»» Investigator, »»»» and Paul Allen Distinguished Investigator »»»» MIT, Ames St., Cambridge, MA 02139 >> >> >> >> office »»»» cell »»»» email - » » » » fax - » » » » skype >> >> >> >> web - http://syntheticneurobiology.org » twitter - » » » > » » » > » » » > » » » > » » » > -- » » » > »»»> The information contained in this communication is >> >> >> > confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may >> >> >> > constitute inside information, and is intended only for »»>» the use of the addressee. It is the property of EFTA00961255 >> >> >» Jeffrey Epstein >> >> >> > Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this >> >> >> > communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited »»>» and may be unlawful. If you have received this >> >> >> > communication in error, please notify us immediately by >> >> >> > return e-mail or by e-mail to [email protected], and »»>» destroy this communication and all copies thereof, »»»> including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved » » » » » » » » » » » » -- »»» Ed Boyden, Ph. D. >> >> >> Leader, Synthetic Neurobiology Group » » » Associate Professor, MIT Media Lab and McGovern Institute, »»» Departments of Biological Engineering and Brain and Cognitive »>>» Sciences • » Benesse Chair, New York Stem Cell Foundation-Robertson Investigator, »»» and Paul Allen Distinguished Investigator »»» MIT, Room Ames St., Cambridge, MA 02139 >> >> >> office - »»» cell - >> >> >> email » » » fax - >> >> » skype - »»» web - http://syntheticneurobiology.org »»» twitter - »»> »»> »»> »»> »»> -- » » > »>» The information contained in this communication is >> >> > confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may >> >> > constitute inside information, and is intended only for »>» the use of the addressee. It is the property of >> >» Jeffrey Epstein >> >> > Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this »» > communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited »>» and may be unlawful. If you have received this >> >> > communication in error, please notify us immediately by >> >> > return e-mail or by e-mail to [email protected], and >> >> > destroy this communication and all copies thereof, >> >> > including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved »» »» »» »»-- »» Ed Boyden, Ph. D. »» Leader, Synthetic Neurobiology Group »» Associate Professor, MIT Media Lab and McGovern Institute, »» Departments of Biological Engineering and Brain and Cognitive Sciences »» Benesse Chair, New York Stem Cell Foundation-Robertson Investigator, EFTA00961256 • >> and Paul Allen Distinguished Investigator • » MIT, Room EIS-421. 20 Ames St., Cambridge, MA 02139 »» office - »» cell >> » email - »» fax »» skype -- »>> web - http://syntheticneurobiology.org »» twitter - »> »> »> »> »>-- >> > >> > The information contained in this communication is >> > confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may >> > constitute inside information, and is intended only for >» the use of the addressee. It is the property of >> > Jeffrey Epstein >> > Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this >> > communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited >> > and may be unlawful. If you have received this >> > communication in error, please notify us immediately by >> > return e-mail or by e-mail to [email protected], and >> > destroy this communication and all copies thereof, >> > including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved » -- » Ed Boyden, Ph. D. » Leader, Synthetic Neurobiology Group >> Associate Professor, MIT Media Lab and McGovern Institute, >> Departments of Biological Engineering and Brain and Cognitive Sciences >> Benesse Chair, New York Stem Cell Foundation-Robertson Investigator, >> and Paul Allen Distinguished Investigator >> MIT, Room E15-421 20 Ames St., Cambridge, MA 02139 » office - >> cell - >> email » fax - » skype >> web - http://syntheticneurobiology.org >> twitter - > -- > *********************************************************** > The information contained in this communication is > confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may > constitute inside information, and is intended only for EFTA00961257  > the use of the addressee. It is the property of > Jeffrey Epstein > Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this > communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited > and may be unlawful. If you have received this > communication in error, please notify us immediately by > return e-mail or by e-mail to [email protected], and > destroy this communication and all copies thereof, > including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved Ed Boyden, Ph. D. Leader, Synthetic Neurobiology Group Associate Professor, MIT Media Lab and McGovern Institute, Departments of Biological Engineering and Brain and Cognitive Sciences Benesse Chair, New York Stem Cell Foundation-Robertson Investigator, and Paul Allen Distinguished Investigator MIT, Room El 5-421 20 Ames St., Cambridge, MA 02139 offic cell email - fax - skYPe web - http://syntheticneurobiology.org twitter - The information contained in this communication is confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may constitute inside information, and is intended only for the use of the addressee. It is the property of Jeffrey Epstein Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return e-mail or by e-mail to [email protected], and destroy this communication and all copies thereof, including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved EFTA00961258